Damn Tenants!

[Baker]

My current tenant in the apartment I rent(first floor of my house) is moving out. He did stay the length of the lease and paid his rent on time. Quiet too. So when he gave thirty days notice I couldn't be upset, and because he had been so regular in his rent payments I gave him permission(when he asked) to pay the rent late this last month.

So when I reminded him it is the 15th and the rent is due he emailed me that he can't pay, that I can have the deposit as the last month' rent. Well OF COURSE I can! Although the lease says he can't do it he is trying to screw me out of what is owed. I HATE that! What if he leaves the place a mess? THAT'S what the deposit is for! I have sent him an ultimatum that he has to pay up by 10:00AM CDT on Saturday or I will, take him to Small Claims Court. I will see if that jogs some bucks loose. Grrrrr! Tenants like this are why being a landlady is so hard. I never butted into the place while he was there, I tried to be quiet upstairs, and left him alone. So why has he turned into a jerk? Thanks for letting me vent here. I am so friggin' angry!!!!!!!

[Damhna]

Whoooaaa!!

Take a pill.
Why is it that you expect this person who to date has been a model tennant to have trashed the place? You are entitled to visit and check the place out no?

Try to remeber that this person has most likely had to scrape enough together to get a deposit on a new place. While I know thats not your concern I can see it from the tennants point of view. Getting the deposit back on the day he leaves is not much use if he needs to secure a place to live in the meantime.

Try to resolve things amicably and part on the good terms that you have enjoyed to date.

[Osip]

Listen to our Finn friend here (Damhna).

If he has been a model tenent until this point, give him the benifit of the doubt. Go look and see what the apartment looks like before you rant and bitch.
I think your rant it a bit premature. Bitching and screaming before all facts are known is just a waste of time.
Now, if you open that apartment and it is trashed. You can bitch all you want (I know I would.
But, screaming about a possible senario I find a bit silly. Exspecially since he hs been a model tenant till now.

Osip

P.S. Feel free to post again and tell me "I told you so" if you feel you must. Yet, for your sake and mine I hope that does not happen.

[Baker]

The place is a mess. I did go and look. If I have to clean it up I will be behind, because that is what the deposit is for. Both of you sound as if you have never been landlords. Have you? Have you had to deal with folks making promises they don't keep, in regard to your own money? And by the way, it is "tenants", not "tennants" or "tenent", "scenario", not "senario".

And it is not my problem if he has trouble scraping together
enough for a new place, it is his problem. It's not my problem if he has money difficulties.

[Annie-Xmas]

I work in property management. SECURITY IS NOT RENT!
It is not to be used for the rent. The landlord must
keep it in an interest bearing account, and use it
for any repairs to the apartment after the tenant
moves out. The balance must be returned to the
tenant along with a letter of explanation.

We once had a tenant evicted who owed 6 months'
back rent. They trashed the place (including
pouring oil in every closet!), and when we would
not give them their security back, they actually
tried to have a sheriff's sale of the house because
we owed them their security. A pain-in-the-ass that
lasted six months, and we then sued them for back
rent and damages. And didn't see a dime.

[Baker]

Annie-Xmas, thank you for your reply. It seems someone else here knows better about landlord/tenant relations. I doubt I will see anything either, but it will be interesting bugging him until he leaves. I suspect he will clear the rest of the stuff out while I am at work next week. He knows my hours. So I will probably have to change the locks as well.

[Damhna]

My understanding of a deposit is that it is to be used for damages to the property or its contents.

Have your tennants moved out yet? Have they not cleaned up after themselves? That admittedly is not in the spirit of things. I think you might be justified in extracting the cost of a "Ms. Mop" and any vacuming,shampooing etc costs you might incurr.

I am presuming that when you say the place is a mess that it is still habitable?

You are correct in that I have never been a landlord.I still think however that an amicable resolution is probably in everyones interest (and your blood pressure too). I do understand your anger and you have the right to be miffed of course...but threataning legal action seems to be a little over the top.

I think perhaps that most of this anger comes from the fact that the property is part of your own living space. Would you feel the same way (as angry) if it were an appartment on the otherside of town?

clarifications:
Im Irish not Finnish
If I make typos ...sue me

[Damhna]

Missed the last two posts there.

Baker
As I tennant myself I claim to know a little about landlord/tennant relationships and am trying to advance the position of the other party.

Annie
I bow to your surperior knowledge.
A question however:
In the case of a tennant owing six months back rent but who leaves the appartment in pristine condition is the landlord entitled to keep the deposit?

[Baker]

Damhna, how can I get the cost of the cleaning supplies? The jerk hasn't paid the rent. As has been said before, deposit is not rent, so if this bozo won't pay up the rent, I have to use the deposit to cover it(which I shouldn't have to). So where does the cost of cleaning and changing the locks come from? Out of my pocket, that's where! And I will still have to work cleaning too.

[matt_mcl]

Just be glad you don't live in Quebec, where security deposits are ILLEGAL. I am glad I live in Quebec, for the same reason.

[Annie-Xmas]

Originally posted by Damhna
Missed the last two posts there.


Annie
I bow to your surperior knowledge.
A question however:
In the case of a tennant owing six months back rent but who leaves the appartment in pristine condition is the landlord entitled to keep the deposit?

First, thank you. As to your question:

Legally, no. You'd have to go to small claims court
to try and get it. And good luck!

[Kiki]

I wouldn't be a landlord simply because it seems like a pain in the ass. I lived in a duplex for a little over two years and I know the problems my landlord had with their tenants. One side was a two bedroom and the other side was a three bedroom. We lived in the two bedroom side for 6 months and then moved into the three bedroom. Once we left the two bedroom side our landlord started showing the place. She had two prospects. One prospect was two teenagers, one of which was between jobs. The other was a woman in her mid 40s who was working as a bagger at the local grocery store. My husband (now ex husband) and I met both of them at the request of our landlord because she wanted our opinion on whom she should rent to. We all agreed that the teenagers probably wouldn't pay the rent, would play loud music and be disruptive and my husband and I had a little baby at the time.

She ended up renting it out to the older lady. The lady gave her the deposit but didn't pay the rent for three months. Our landlady gave her an eviction notice and eventually the police had to come and watch the woman pack her belongings and leave the premises. Our landlady took her to small claims court but the woman skipped town so our landlady was out three months rent and also had the mess to clean up and still had to try to find new tenants.

When I moved from that place three months ago I paid my last months rent, cleaned the apartment and did a walk-through with the landlady. After the walk-through she wrote me a check and gave me my deposit back. That's the way it's supposed to work. If you know your going to move you should have money saved up for deposit on a new place before you even start looking. Just my opinion.

[Osip]

Originally posted by Damhna
clarifications:
Im Irish not Finnish
If I make typos ...sue me
So your a Mick, not a Finn, no worries either way.
The typos were mine not your Damhna ;)

I Have been on both sides of the fence in this.
I think until he moves out, getting pissy and such is not a good idea. If you rant and bitch or become "hostle" he will only have a desire to say "fuck the bitch" and leave the place a wreck.

If he leave the place a wreck and skips out, you may very well have to go to small claims court. Which, you should.
I am not questioning your right to bitch about the situation, just the timing.

Inofrm him with a letter that the deposit is not rent, and that he must have the apartment clean and in good condition when he moves out to get the deposit back. Which, under those conditions his deposit will be refunded minus overdue rent. If it is not in good condition, and he does not pay take him to court.

Osip

[zwaldd]

i've never been a landlord and have taken dishonest dickshit landlords to court to have issues resolved, so i have no bias on the side of landlords. that said, people like baker's tenant piss me off to no end. it doesn't matter that the guy paid his rent on time; that's his obligation to the lease. you don't tell the landlord you can't pay the rent and to use the security deposit. just do what you agreed to do when you signed the lease! pay your rent, clean the apartment before you leave, and expect your security deposit back within 30 days (texas).

also, baker has every right and reason to rant and bitch. the tenant didn't ask if it was ok if he didn't pay the rent, he simply announced that he wasn't going to pay it. that sucks and is disrespectful and gives baker the right to respond however (he/she) sees fit. just knowing that i might have to waste time in court because some asswipe doesn't know how to conduct his business would really boil my blood.

[Stylus]

I'm 5 months into the lease on my 10th apartment. Baker, I know you're pissed about the place being a mess; however, apartments (or houses or any other dwelling) usually get "messy" during a move. Whenever I would move to a new apartment, I always moved out a few days before the lease ended so I could come back and clean the place, absent of all furniture, clothes, etc. If he's been such a good tenant, why do you think he'll leave you with a mess to clean? Was he "messy" while he lived there? Shit, if all of my previous landlords would have seen my apartment during the move, they probably would be reacting just as you are. Maybe you should prepare for and anticipate the worse, but don't allow it to get to you before you cross that bridge...if you can. You just may be surprised by him.

[stofsky]

Just like everyone else, you get the good and the bad on both sides of the renting fence. I've lived in a place where if the rent was half-an-hour past noon, you paid the late fee. My current landlord lets it slide for a couple of days if things are tight. But then again it took over a week to get a new hot water tank put in (water heater or hot water tank; hot water heater is redundant) and we just got a tax-sale notice tacked to the door. He still hasn't returned my call as to whether we ought to renew our lease or not.

I also rented to my brother. I know, mistake, but the terms of the lease were that he'd make the mortgage payment and pay for any repairs--kind of like being the homeowner. Then we get a nice long email about the furnace, the hot water tank, etc., "we're not asking for money....is it too much to ask for a little help."

Hell, landlords and tenants both suck. I can't wait until I graduate, finally find a tenure-track job and buy something again.

[bare]

As a working property manager, I have had this happen all too often. The quickest way to get action is to deliver the tenant a three day notice to pay the rent or vacate. This is all you need to file a small claims case. Beats having to give thirty days notice and waiting for a date. If you point out that they may be liable for all court costs, he will likely pay up. Either way follow through with your threat, it makes it easier on the rest of us. I often never collect on a judgement, but it does appear on their future credit checks.

[Baker]

I really appreciate all the feedback I am getting here, especially a couple of the latest ones, from Rachelle and bare. I know I probably won't collect a penny but as has been said it will appear on his future credit record.

One problem there, in filing I am supposed to have his(new) address and I don't know what it is. Anyone have tips on how to find out? I'm no detective.

[zenith]

Just a WAG about the address, maybe the post office will have a change of address on file.

[Lsura]

Originally posted by Baker

One problem there, in filing I am supposed to have his(new) address and I don't know what it is. Anyone have tips on how to find out? I'm no detective.

Having worked in collections, I can tell you one of the best ways to hunt someone down is the U.S. Postal service.

This will only work if he has forwarded his mail. Mail a letter to the old address, very clearly marked "Do Not Forward Address Correction Requested". Should come back to you fairly quickly with a yellow sticker on it with the new address. Ummmm. Otherwise, did he give you references when he moved in? That may help-try calling them. Be VERY careful though. I know at my old job we could state who we were, and where we were calling from-but not WHY. Or do you have a new phone number? Try information if you don't. Then, go to the reverse phone number lookup at http://www.infospace.com . You can plug in the number, and if it is listed it will give you the address and name that it is in.

Hope that helps you some.

[bare]

You can find their new address after a while by getting a new credit report on them. I use Tenant Credit Report, http://www.tenantcredit.com. They also offer skip tracing and you can file a free deadbeat report on your former tenant that will show up on all future credit reports. The cost is very nominal for all of their services, as little as 10.00. It could be they only work for property managers but I'm certain that a property manager would run a report for you if Tenant Credit Reports won't do it for you.

You might also consider hiring a property manager now, they will save you tons of hassle and know the "ins and outs". Ask for and check their references too.

[Baker]

bare, your idea of a property manager is good but it wouldn't work for me. You see, I own my house, live upstairs, and what I rent is the downstairs. I don't make enough to pay someone else to manage for me. If I owned a lot of units, sure I'd look into it.

Lsura, your idea sounds great. I will try that. It has the advantage of being legal AND cheap. If it doesn't work I will go with getting a credit report. And the research firm that I use to check references will take info from landlords on less than satisfactory tenants. So he will have a black mark there, even if nowhere else.

[bare]

Most property managers I am aware of charge around ten percent of the rent, and will raise the rent enough to cover their expense. It is also a write off on your taxes. Believe me you will come out ahead and lead a much more peaceful existance. Also since you share the home you will not want the tenant to know that you are the owner, let them think you are just another tenant, that way you won't be getting 11pm calls to change a light bulb!

[Uzi]

I've been a property manager myself and found it to be the crapiest job on the planet. Nothing like being called in the middle of the night to let some drunk in who forgot that his keys were in his pocket!
If I had someone who didn't pay I sent him an eviction notice. He then had two weeks to pay his rent, or get out.
The security (damage) deposit isn't available until after the tenant moves out as it is held in trust until then. So, a landlord who has to collect rent so that they can pay a mortgage is out of pocket. There ain't nothing like having to eat kd because of some asshole you let live in your home.

[Manda JO]

One suggestion: From a purely pragmatic point of view, it makes more sense to try and reason with the guy now--if it works you win, and if it dosen't, you can sue him latter. He probably knows he is being as ass, and feels bad about it, but dosen't know how to work with you.

The first thing I would do is tell him, calmly, why you are not satisfied with the idea of using his deposit as his last months rent. Tell him that all your previous tenants have left the apartment in a state where you had to spend $200 or whatever to have it cleaned (even if you clean it yourself the lost oppurtunity cost is whatever it would have cost you to call a cleaning service), and that this cleaning comes out of that deposit. Give him the option of paying half the rent now, and taking the other half out of the deposit. If he says he can't do that (and if the money is not there, it is not there) stress that if the apartment is not spotless, you will have to come after him and ruin his credit. Detail how you will do that. Make it clear to him that you would prefer to work with him and find a resolution you can both live with (after all,if the apartment is clean and undamaged and you have your money you have everything you want, right?) but that you are willing to take steps.

Keeping the relationship amaible is important. If you are an ass, he will just transfer his feelings of guilt into feelings of anger towards you. Let me give you an example. I have a good friend who, two years ago, had to quit work to take care of her mother, who was dying of cancer. She was 21, and had no other family. The month her mother died was also the month that her savings ran out---you can imagene this was a high stress situation. There was some life insurance due her, but there was a snafu at the company and it took some weeks on the phone to straighten things out. In the midst of this she had a rent payment due, and simply did not have the money. She had always been on time to date, and she called her landlord and explained the situation. On the phone he was all smiles and undertanding--but threee days later she came home to find an eviction notice on the door. On top of everything else, this just crushed her. After that, she felt no compulsion to work with this guy or explain anyhing to him, or do more than the bare minimum that she was required to do by law. (She usually leaves apartments clean when she moves out-she just left this place) If he wasn't going to give her the benefit of the doubt after a year of amiable relations, she wasn't going to bother being a model tenant.

I am wondering, just from reading your story, if something similiar is going on here. This guy may well be willing to work with you, but you are not making your concerns clear to him--you are immediatly starting to comunicate through legal ultimatiums. Putting his back to a wall is not going to get you your money, ever. It will just ruin his life. He may never have thought of cleaning costs and such. Sit down and frankly telll hm your concerns. If he can do what needs to be done--and he may well have no money but have 3 friends that are willing to help him cl;ean the hell out of the place, you win, and he is out of a diffucult spot. On the other hand, if he screws you over, ruin his credit so that he won't get a chance to do it to the next person. Delaying it by two weeks won't change anything.

[Baker]

I have exchanged information with the tenant. He has an email address and since he won't talk with me I had to send him an email telling him his actions were not acceptable, and detailing how I would go to Small Claims Court if he didn't pay up. He was at the apartment yesterday to (I presume) get more of his crap out of the place. I have not been entirely well and did not feel up to talking just then, and he din't try to see me either.

Later I discovered he left the front door not only unlocked but OPEN as well, a HUGE security risk. So I looked the place over and saw nothing of value, just old clothes and kitchen utensils, etc. I have now left him a note inside the door stating that within 24 hours I will have the locks changed, because of the risk I feel he is posing. So hopefully this will be over soon. I will still file in court too, although I have no expectations of getting anything, because I want this to go on his legal record. Maybe the filing fees are worth that kind of satisfaction. And maybe by this time on Monday I will be really ranting!!!!!!! Who knows?

Uzi, it sounds like we are on a similar wavelength here. One set of tenants I had got into a fight(he was drunk) and he fell against the big glass panel in the front door(original with the house)..You know the one with the pretty beveled edge that throws rainbows on the opposite wall when the sun hits it right. Broke it all out. They were the fourth set of tenants, the current guy is the eighth. Interestingly, the first four all started well and ended badly, and the second four have all been great, up until this guy suprises me. Maybe 50/50 isn't so bad.

[bare]

Hey MandaJO, want a job? You sound like you would make a perfect property manager. Everything you said is true. That is what makes a good landlord, one who can hear the truth and one who knows bull-shit when they hear it. The important message here is treat everyone with respect until they don't deserve it any more (we all have bad times}. Then get even! With a vengence!

[MsRobyn]

My mom owned several multi-unit apartment houses for quite a while, and what she would do is offer the tenant a nominal cash bonus along with the ENTIRE deposit if their rent was current and the apartment was in move-in condition when the keys were turned back in. She'd then assess the wear-and-tear damage, fix what was necessary, and turn around and rent the next day. If something major needed to be replaced, like flooring or wallpaper, she'd take the apartment off the market, completely redecorate the place from top to bottom, and then would raise the rent a bit to cover the expense of redecorating. Most of the apartments she did this to really turned out great, and she found that tenants willing to pay a higher rent were, for the most part, better tenants.

The other thing I'd suggest would be to do at least a cursory background check, especially when you're living there yourself. Verify employment and current residence, at the very minimum. Mom also found that some employers are more than happy to assist the landlord with problem tenants.

It's cuz of stuff like that that I refuse to entertain the thought of being a landlady myself.

Robin

[Skribbler]

Don't bother. You need to present a 3 day notice. He will fight it. Then you will need to present an official eviction notice. He will fight it. He will move out as he said and you will have legal bills. He will have none, because he went to legal aid and they love evictions.

[Baker]

Well, the tenant has just come by about twenty minutes ago and wanted to know if "there is some way we can work this out" I told him he could pay the rent and again he said he just doesn't have it.I asked why he had said he had the money at the beginning of the month, and didn't now. And was I in for a suprise.

It turns out he has a property of his own that I didn't know about, even with the background check I did. HIS tenant moved out and screwed him and now he wants ME to give HIM a break!

There was more discussion in which I refused at first to negotiate. Inside I know that if I do go to court I won't in all likelihood see a dime, and I wouldn't want to waste time and money if I can help it. So in the end I gave him an ultimatum. We will go through the place on Tuesday at 3:00PM, and if the place is in perfect movein shape I will not pursue the matter further. If it is not I told him I will go from here to the courthouse to start procedures. I acted as tough as I could without being profane. There will be no more chances after that. So we shall see.

[Damhna]

Baker,

We dont see eye to eye on this but I wanted to say that I hope it works out for the best.

You dont need the hassle.

I guess you'll be real careful choosing the next tennant.

Have you considered letting to a company in the area?
As an expat here I live in company provided accomodation and in talking to the owner I discovered that the company pays him a full year up front and they then use the appartment when they need it. Hes delighted because the company takes 5 of his premises , he dosent need to worry if someone leaves early because the company must still pay for the right to use it and hes never going to have the hassles you have because generally a company will be a lot easier to reason with that some lowlife with a sobstory.

Sounds like a win win situation for everyone involved.

[Baker]

It's funny you should mention that Damhna because someone at work today said something about that. I'm not sure how to go about finding companies that might want it, and it is in the central(slightly depressed) part of town, but it sounds as if something worth looking into. And the hospital I work at has folks that come in from all over the country(and other countries as well), maybe I can put in an ad at work. Thanks for the tip.

I'm just waiting for tomorrow to see if the tenant is actually out as planned. Wish me luck, because if he isn't you'll see some REAL ranting!

[Kiki]

So what happened Baker? It's after 3:00 on Tuesday... you should've met with the tenant by now. Was the place in move-in condition?