Please help me see that marriage isn't a total crock.

[Cockatiel]

After years of bitching and arguing, my parents are finally separating. My dad apparently broke the news to my mom that he was moving out last night when I was out with some friends. My sister just moved into college so it's going to be just me and my mom for now.

I'm still in high school, and after seeing my parents' (excuse my french) fucked up relationship steadily decline for years, I already have doubts about marriage and relationships in general. I mean, I know there are happy marriages out there, but I haven't seen very many in my short lifetime. I was just hoping I could get input from some Dopers who have had happy, lasting relationships and some advice from those who have gone through similar experiences as I am right now on keeping your parents' messed up relationship from making you have doubts about your own.

Not having a pity party; I just want some input.

[SSG Schwartz]

Cockatiel ,

I'm not a marriage expert or anything, but I have just passed my eighth anniversary with my wife. I have also had experience counseling people who are having maritial difficulties. One of the things that I have seen is that some couples will have a perfect relationship from the beginning until death do they part. Some couples will have a f****d up relationship from the start, and some will start out good and get messed up. Mostly it is about understanding that people change. If you can adapt to the changes in your SO, your relationship may last. If your SO can adapt to the changes in you, then your relationship will probibly last.

Sometimes adults look at their relationship and realize that the best way to fix it is to end it. I know that it may seem as though all marraiges are doomed to you right now, but being in high school, you may want to explore how to have a relationship with someone now. I'm not going to tell you you do not have the maturity to have an adult relationship right now, because I do not know you well enough to say that, but you haven't had enough life experiences to be able to judge what type of person you would want to spend the rest of your life with.

I'm really sorry to hear that your parents are breaking up. I would reccommend that you talk to a professional, a teacher, or a close friend that you trust to help you work through some of the feelings you are having.

Good luck,

SGT Schwartz

[glee]

I'm not a marriage expert either.

As a teacher, I can tell you that unfortunately some marriages do fail and that it's always hard on the kids.
As Sgt Schwartz said, do talk to someone. You are not alone and others do understand what you're going through.

My parents have been happily married for 60 years. Good luck to you!

[tomndebb]

Deb and I just celebrated our 23d anniversary. Her parents were married for 52 years, until my FIL died and my parents were married 32 years until my dad died. None of my sibs are divorced or separated and, among my 15 cousins and 10 cousins-once-removed on my Dad's side of the family, there have only been four divorces, three of which involved people who, it turned out, suffered mental or emotional illness. (My Mom's side of the family has not been as fortunate, but the numbers are still far fewer than a 50% divorce rate.)

Of course, this rules me out as someone with any real experience watching people close to me divorce, but I can talk about how to survive marriage, pretty well.

Being married is not always easy, but it is not a death sentence for love, or even for romance. (Why, I bought Deb flowers not more than five years ago.)

In my experience, the people who have been most successful in marriage are those who talked out the whole range of issues (money, kids, jobs, sex, chores, vacations, living conditions, etc.) before they married. Communication is essential all the time, but nothing breaks communication like an erroneous assumption that is broken with a surprise. People who simply "fall in love" then rush out to marry without talking it through are the ones most likely to suffer a divorce. (And we will hear now from several posters who married after a whilrwind weekend courtship and have steadfastly stayed together for thirty or forty years. I am not going to say that such things never happen, but if one wants to consider the odds, the odds are heavily stacked against the folks who only started talking after the exchange of rings.)

[Key Lime Guy]

I see marriage positively as a huge leap forward in one's maturation, because it teaches you - in a way that nothing else can - that life requires communication and compromise. And this helps you grow in all other areas of life.

I expect a lot of unhappy marriages involve people who are control freaks and/or poor communicators. But ending the marriage doesn't solve those problems; they go on to play out their same personal issues with other people (not to mention in the workplace, etc.). Unless there is counseling or therapy.

[Runs With Scissors]

Date a lot of people...don't settle in relationships until you are 25 or so. You should be meeting lots of people so you can see what you like in a person.

Choose a career goal...and achieve it BEFORE you get married.

Or don't get married at all. You can do whatever you want. Don't let anyone pressure you one way or the other. That includes society, family, and the person you are dating.

[Dangerosa]

Eleven years of marriage to a guy I think is my best friend. Its great. Someone who scratches my back, takes care of me when I'm sick, travels with me, listens to me bitch....and in return he gets someone who scratches his back, takes care of him when he's sick, travels with him and listens to him bitch.

But, I think that even in a great marriage its important to have other sources of contentment and company - hobbies, friends, work -- whatever. Although I'm pretty sure Braianiac4 isn't about to run off with a hot blonde (redhead maybe....), I'm not putting all my eggs into one basket and I think that is a recipe for not being content.

[tashabot]

I, personally, would never get married despite the fact that the Tashaboy and I have been together nearly two years, live together, get along together, rarely fight, are happy, and totally in love. I, personally (for me) do not believe in marriage, partially because it's such a pain in the ass if you wind up having to get a divorce (which I also do not believe in) and secondly because I think that the concept has become cheapened nowadays, when young couples seem to think of it not as a lifetime committment, but the next step in the relationship (holding hands to hugging to kissing to making out to sex to marriage...doesn't really follow, does it?).

However.

My parents have been married 22 years and still act like a bunch of giggling teenagers sometimes. It's cute.

But the really awe-inspiring kind of thing I like about the concept of marriage comes out of a story my paper did recently. This (http://www.nevadaappeal.com/article/20060807/NEWS/108070057&SearchID=73255770054454) is said story. It's a prime example of how beautiful some marriages can be.

Stick with it, would be my advice - live never comes out like you planned. Don't give up on the idea of being with someone or marrying them, just because your parents weren't suited for each other, but don't expect it, either.

I hope everything goes well for you and your parents.

~Tasha

[fessie]

You didn't ask for pity, but will you accept empathy? My parents divorced after 27 years; even though I was 25 and had moved out & married, it was very difficult for me. I'm so sorry for what you're going through.

I don't blame you for being cautious about marriage, that's a good idea at your age anyway. Actually, it's probably good at any age.

It might be helpful for you to know that a whole lotta people (most?) marry someone who's a lot like their opposite-sex parent, because (a) they're familiar, and (b) this gives them a chance to work through their problems with that parent (or just repeat them indefinitely). It's not that they set out to be miserable; they just don't know any better.

My husband and I have been married for 18 years, and yes, we started out together for all the "wrong" reasons, but have kept working through our problems and are still together.

I hope that you have some opportunities to heal - not all families are like yours.

[RickJay]

I was just hoping I could get input from some Dopers who have had happy, lasting relationships and some advice from those who have gone through similar experiences as I am right now on keeping your parents' messed up relationship from making you have doubts about your own.
Well, my parents' marriage isn't half as good as mine.

Frankly, NOT doing all the things they do is one of the ways we have a great marriage. I mean, you can let it get you down, or you can use it as an example of things not to do.

I think most failed marriages fail at least in part because people married for the sake of getting married; it was The Right Thing To Do, or they set off In Search Of a Wife/Husband and thus arranged a wedding the moment they got into a steady relationship with someone who met their mental checklist of marriagability.

Marriages that work tend to be the ones where you meet someone, date them because you want to date them, and then later come to the realization that you want to spend you life with them.

[pinkfreud]

My parents' marriage was a battleground, and they finally divorced. I was quite cynical about marriage for a long time. Didn't find someone I really wanted to marry until I was over thirty. I've been married to him for 26 years, and I can honestly say that I don't think I'd have had the courage to endure some of the hardships that life has dealt me if I didn't have this man by my side. I believe he feels the same way about me. As a team, we are immensely stronger and more resilient (and happier) than we could ever have been alone.

Some folks think that living together without being married is essentially the same thing, but in my experience it isn't. I had several serious live-in relationships before I met my husband, and the depth of commitment just wasn't there. I don't know why, but (in my case, at least) that little piece of paper with the County Clerk's signature on it has proven to be one of the essential ingredients that hold my life together.

[Voyager]

For the good examples, my parents were married for 47 years (until my Mom died) my in-laws were married for 65 years, and we've been married for 28 and counting. So it can work.

Marriage takes work, continuing work, and change is hard. Having kids move out can be hard also. Marriage can be wonderful, but it is never wonderful all the time. The main thing is to go into it carefully, not in a rush, but optimistically. Nothing you do is guaranteed - picking a college, getting a job, asking someone for a date, or getting married. But if you don't take the risk your life will be boring, and you'll have lots of regrets.

Good luck to you.

[Chotii]

My grandparents have been married more than 70 years now. They won't make it to 75...Grandpa is just too fragile now....but I wish he were stronger so they could just go on and on.

My other grandparents were married at least 45 years, until grandpa died.

I only have to look at them, to know that marriages can be good....for a long, long time.

Of the 4 kids in my family, 3 have marriages lasting longer than 12 years. One got divorced, but his second marriage seems strong.

I think....people who treat each other with courtesy and consideration, even when they get angry, are likely to be able to keep a marriage together. When they start allowing themselves to lash out and hurt, it only gets worse from there. I'm sorry you've had to see that, to endure it. But you can learn from it and say "I will not do THIS when I get into a relationship, marriage or otherwise. I will treat my partner with courtesy." It goes a long way.

[ParentalAdvisory]

I see marriage positively as a huge leap forward in one's maturation, because it teaches you - in a way that nothing else can - that life requires communication and compromise. And this helps you grow in all other areas of life.

So one cannot be at your level of maturation unless one is married?

[tomndebb]

So one cannot be at your level of maturation unless one is married?I did not read it that way. I saw it only as an observation that marriage (with the usual unspoken caveats about being ready for it and investing oneself in it) was both a recognition of and a step into maturation. I did not see any claims that only people who married had reached some magic point of maturity.

[Chotii]

Re: maturation

I remember being in college, and meeting a young married couple at my church. They had 3 little boys, ages 1, 3, and 5 (now all grown up and the eldest is himself a married man!). I told the wife once that the young men I knew didn't have the...something...that her husband had, which was my way of saying "Gee, what a nice man you're married to, why can't I meet somebody like that?"

She said, the reason he seemed so nice, is all his rough edges had been rubbed off by the process of staying in a relationship. And that it worked both ways; that he had rubbed off her rough edges too. (They have been married I think 30 years now. I'm still in touch with them from time to time).

I think the process of consciously staying in a committed relationship over time, and working on it mindfully when it struggles, does push people into new levels of maturity. But it is hard work, and requires the cooperation of both partners.

[dangermom]

Somebody called marriage the school of love. That is, it's one of the places where you really have to get down and love someone; that's as in a verb, not as in a fluttery romantic feeling. It's work. It's also a lot of fun, and brings joy and huge rewards, but it's still work.

Anyway. Been happily married for 10 years now, since age 22. Yeah, talking about issues is important, mutual respect and courtesy. Respect is very important; if, on some level, one of you does not respect the other (opinions, religion, inherent worth, whatever), then that's a huge problem. It's not always conscious, people don't always realize when they're treating a person they are attracted to with contempt, but it's something to watch for.

I sympathize with your unhappy situation. It's very hard to trust someone enough to marry them, and when you haven't had a good example to learn from, it makes it much harder. Luckily you have lots of time, and with thought and introspection and all that good stuff, you can learn to change your mental template of 'what marriage should look like.' Good luck and all.

[Key Lime Guy]

So one cannot be at your level of maturation unless one is married?

I didn't mean to seem condescending. I tried to generalize (instead of writing in the first person) because I've seen this dramatic maturation in a lot of other people in addition to myself.

But, I'm sure there are other ways of getting there, and I'm sure some people are born with that wisdom.

[Chefguy]

Now that all the touchy-feely crap and platitudes about communication and hard work are out of the way, I'd like to say that statistically, at least 50% of all marriages in this country are total crap, resulting in divorce or worse (two of my kids are part of the statistics). I would suggest that far more than that should never have taken place and that there are many who suffer in silence. I was one of the latter. Longevity does not always mean happiness; it's quite possible that it's merely a sign of resignation on the part of one or both parties.

But there are those gems that are worthwhile. My present spouse and I connect on nearly every level. Miscommunications are rare and we respect each other too much to expect the other to change to conform to some sort of marital ideal.

Marriage is just the legal form of living together. If you're having problems with the person you're living with, things aren't going to change after some clown in a collar performs incantations over you and your best friend barfs all over his rented tux. Reality checks are critical before making a legally binding commitment to another person to whom you will be financially beholden should things not work out. Is this really someone you can stand to be around 24/7 for the forseeable future?

In conclusion, marriage isn't necessarily a total crock. That's too broad a brush to paint with. But venture there cautiously, my friend. Blindly entering into any arrangement without regard for your well-being is foolish.

Let the righteous indignation and wrath commence.

[Nava]

It might be helpful for you to know that a whole lotta people (most?) marry someone who's a lot like their opposite-sex parent, because (a) they're familiar, and (b) this gives them a chance to work through their problems with that parent (or just repeat them indefinitely). It's not that they set out to be miserable; they just don't know any better.


Depends a lot on whether they're in any way like their same-sex parent, too. My aunt is a female version of her Dad in many ways, whereas the main thing she's got in common with her mother is between her legs; neither of her two husbands is like Gramps at all. She and the first one divorced when I was 11: the only two good things to come out of that marriage are my cousins, but then, she'd married that particular guy in order to get out of the house - he just happened to be available at the time and acceptable to her parents. The second one is a quiet guy who's been supportive through her medical problems and who is a good match to her mercurial personality. He calms her down and supports her; she pulls him out of his shell.

My SiL is a lot like Mom in that they're both very controlling; both make plans that they expect to see fulfilled even when they don't deign share them with the principals. But she also happens to be very down-to-earth; this makes her a good counterweight to my brother, he of the enormous imagination and terrible mood swings. He would ignore the Law of Gravity if he could; she finds it too lax. Being in contact with him has awakened parts of her brain that had never been watered by her parents; she's his anchor.



Another thing: sometimes, a relationship that's perceived as "bad" by those not directly in it is seen as "good" by those inside. My grandparents are one of those couples who have a fight in order to make up :p This wouldn't have hurt their daughters half as much as it did if they'd known the whole story when they were young - but all they got to see was the very-public quarrels, never the in-private steaming sex. Those two were still "partaking marital duties" in their eighties. A relationship is not about what works for other people... it's about what works for you.

[Lissla Lissar]

I think....people who treat each other with courtesy and consideration, even when they get angry, are likely to be able to keep a marriage together.

I think this is true. It has, at least, been important in my marriage. We try never to be deliberately nasty, which looks obvious, but after the cat has just thrown up because he overfed them and it's 3 a.m. and you just bruised your foot because the recycling wasn't put out again, which is supposed to be his job... it can be rough. Substitute "her" to flip it around.

She said, the reason he seemed so nice, is all his rough edges had been rubbed off by the process of staying in a relationship. And that it worked both ways; that he had rubbed off her rough edges too.

This reminds me of a passage in a Kathleen Norris book about living in a monastic community. I can't find the passage offhand, but the gist is thst living in committed community with others, if done with love, tends to work like a rock tumbler- you end up good and polished, but the friction isn't necessarily comfortable.

I've only been married for three and a half years, but I think some of our rough edges have already been worn off. Lots of edges still to go, but it's more than worth it.


In brief response to Chefguy, sorry for being touchy-feely again.

[fishbicycle]

I think I was in your position when I was around your age. My parents split up after 20 years. In our little town, they were trendsetters. Their breakup sent shock waves through their social circle, and inside of a year, the four couples they were closest to, broke up. I saw crappy, ugly relationships all over the place. Divorce seems to run in my family. Two of my uncles, some extended relatives, everybody seemed unable to stay married. My best friends lost their relationships and marriages. It got so I was afraid of even trying, if this was what my life was going to be like. I didn't want any of that anguish. So, I was alone for a long time, watching and learning.

Then I found my wife, and we have also just passed eight years of marriage, and we knew each other for two years before that. We have never had a fight or an argument. No slammed doors, no tears, no accusations, no jealousy. Her parents have a kind of a sick relationship, and she had major doubts about relationships in general, too. Well, that's a good sign for my wife. Independent of each other, we were able to draw up a mental category of ways we would not treat another person if we were married to them. And that's what we do.

I liked her so much that I left my country to come here and be married to her. I want her to always love me, and I also want her to like me, because she's a great friend. I don't treat her in ways that don't facilitate that continuing. So if you approach it in such a way that you consciously don't mess up your good thing, you can have a very good thing, indeed. With the right person, it isn't hard to be happy, if you both are in agreement about the major issues of your lives. We talked about it all before we got married. That was important.

I can see where you might get a fear of marriage by watching other people, and come to view it as a ball and chain that leads only to ugliness and misery. But it doesn't have to be like that, and it will never be, if you don't want it to.

[Boyo Jim]

I vote for "total crock" -- I had the whole dysfunctional family thing as a kid (here is a thread called Family Rage (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=381262&highlight=Family+Rage) I did about it), but my parents NEVER separated, and I believe everyone would have been much happier if they had. I am now 47, never been married.

But I believe there are a couple of useful things about marriage. I think there are some tax benefits, but you should talk to a real accountant about that, and IA one. And I think there's probably a psychological benefit for any children that are born or adopted or fertilized or spawned or whatever.

Of course, my own experience belies the latter. So my advice is, if you want children, and really believe a marriage has long term potential, do it. But if it ends up getting poisonous, consider that splitting up might be the lesser of two evils rather than bringing kids up in a hate filled home.

[tomndebb]

Now that all the touchy-feely crap and platitudes about communication and hard work are out of the way, I'd like to say that statistically, at least 50% of all marriages in this country are total crap, resulting in divorce or worse (two of my kids are part of the statistics). Of course, if we're going to drop the "touchy-feely crap" we should probably not replace it with errors of fact or implication.

While the number of marriages that have failed have approached 50% on a few occasions (several years ago), the number of married persons in failing marriages has never approached 50%. Every person who marries multiple times rachets up the percent of failed marriages while doing nothing to increase the number of persons in a failed marriage. (I figure Mickey Rooney and Liz Taylor have probably skewed the numbers from the country just by themselves.) Deb had an associate who came from a cultural background in which it was simply not done to live together outside marriage. On the other hand, the woman was basically not interested in a serious life-time commitment. Thus, in the nine years we knew her, she was married three times (and, I believe, may have been married previously and subsequently). I have no criticism of her lifestyle (although I am not interested in following it), but her experience pretty thoroughly tilts the "percent of marriages" that fail over to the wrong side of the ledger.

This is not to say that there is no risk in marriage, but it is to note that all the "touchy-feely crap" is actually a presentation of strategies that may reduce the risk of a troubled marriage or eventual divorce.

[Chefguy]

In brief response to Chefguy, sorry for being touchy-feely again.

I'm a fairly abrupt and direct person. It doesn't come across very well, but I'm sorta working on it, but not really. I'm assuming you were being sarcastic.

If the incidents you've described are what you consider "rough", you're leading a cushy life indeed. Those would be less than minor irritants to me, since I understand the fallibility of the human animal. It merits a shrug at best.

[Chefguy]

Of course, if we're going to drop the "touchy-feely crap" we should probably not replace it with errors of fact or implication.

<snip>

This is not to say that there is no risk in marriage, but it is to note that all the "touchy-feely crap" is actually a presentation of strategies that may reduce the risk of a troubled marriage or eventual divorce.

No arguments, and I didn't say that it's a bad thing. Quoting platitudes to someone though, is to gloss over the realities of living together. While my hipshot estimate of 50% may be pessimistic, the actual numbers overwhelmingly demonstrate the lack of thought that many put into the whole proposition.

[Dangerosa]

Some folks think that living together without being married is essentially the same thing, but in my experience it isn't. I had several serious live-in relationships before I met my husband, and the depth of commitment just wasn't there. I don't know why, but (in my case, at least) that little piece of paper with the County Clerk's signature on it has proven to be one of the essential ingredients that hold my life together.

It was the essential ingredient that allowed us to adopt. Living without the peice of paper is well and good - until the legal world of "sorry you need to be married" steps in and you start to understand why same sex couples want the legal rights of marriage.

[ITR champion]

I see marriage positively as a huge leap forward in one's maturation, because it teaches you - in a way that nothing else can - that life requires communication and compromise. And this helps you grow in all other areas of life.

I expect a lot of unhappy marriages involve people who are control freaks and/or poor communicators. But ending the marriage doesn't solve those problems; they go on to play out their same personal issues with other people (not to mention in the workplace, etc.). Unless there is counseling or therapy.

I remember a minister telling me, "The marriage you start out with is not the marriage you end up with." Nobody could successfully have predicted the current condition of their life thirty years ago. And unless you seek out and marry the world's most boring person, you won't be able to predict where both you and your spouse will be ten, twenty, thirty, forty, and fifty years down the road. Successful couples are willing to acknowledge and accept changes in each other. Big changes. Maybe one partner starts out wanting only one child, then changes their mind and decides they want four or five. Or someone gets bored of living in Kentucky and wants to move to Hawaii. Or they grow tired of being an office drone and decide to start their own business. A successful couple has to view marriage as an adventure rather than a contract.

Here's another tip: couples should vacation together. Every year. Take long and relaxing vacations, not just two-day road trips.

[Scarlett67]

I am always dismayed when I see people disparaging the entire institution of marriage just because their parents had a bad one, or they had a bad one, or whatever. Yes, there are bad marriages, and bad parents, and bad therapists, and bad Christians. Doesn't mean that no one should ever get married, or have kids, or see a counselor, or go to church.

My marriage, for one, is NOT a total crock, and I'll thank you (generic you) not to call it one just because you've witnessed someone else's ugly relationship. That's a mighty broad brush.

For the record, Mr. S's parents had a mighty rotten marriage (they're both dead), and so do mine (still together, though I wish to hell they weren't). We both just decided that we would NOT be like that. We are courteous and kind to each other. We express our appreciation. We pick our battles and accept each other's flaws. We fight fair; we don't bring up past resolved issues, and our main goal is compromise, not having a "winner" and a "loser." We depend on and support each other. We consider our marriage the most important thing we have, and we nurture and protect it.

[Lissla Lissar]

Nope, not really being sarcastic.


Oddly, we find it slightly easier to deal with big things- illness, unemployment, family problems- as a team, without much tension. It's the small things that build gradually into larger and more irrational irritations, and can become fuse-points, although we've gotten pretty good at not letting them build. Most of the time, anyway.

*Shrug* maybe my life is exceptionally cushy.


My parents' marriage is much less happy than my own, and I partially attribute it to the inability to be courteous and not bully each other.

[SusanStoHelit]

Re: maturation

I remember being in college, and meeting a young married couple at my church. They had 3 little boys, ages 1, 3, and 5 (now all grown up and the eldest is himself a married man!). I told the wife once that the young men I knew didn't have the...something...that her husband had, which was my way of saying "Gee, what a nice man you're married to, why can't I meet somebody like that?"

She said, the reason he seemed so nice, is all his rough edges had been rubbed off by the process of staying in a relationship. And that it worked both ways; that he had rubbed off her rough edges too. (They have been married I think 30 years now. I'm still in touch with them from time to time).

I think the process of consciously staying in a committed relationship over time, and working on it mindfully when it struggles, does push people into new levels of maturity. But it is hard work, and requires the cooperation of both partners.

That's a great story Chotii. Whenever I'm bickering with my Caveman and can't figure out why, I often think of it as "rubbing off the sharp pointy bits"

And Cockatiel you can do a search of my posting history to see that I'm far from ultra-religious, but one of my favorite passages in the bible is from Ecclesiastes 4:

9 Two are better than one,
because they have a good return for their work:

10 If one falls down,
his friend can help him up.
But pity the man who falls
and has no one to help him up!

11 Also, if two lie down together, they will keep warm.
But how can one keep warm alone?

12 Though one may be overpowered,
two can defend themselves.
A cord of three strands is not quickly broken.

[Cockatiel]

Scarlett, I'm sorry if this thread has insulted you. I really didn't mean to start a whole "marriage is completely pointless, shouldn't ever happen in the first place, blah blah blah" type thing. I said that I'm aware that there are successful marriages out there; I just haven't seen too many for myself.

Oh and odd update: My dad apparently is staying for now. I'm not really sure what's going to happen, but please don't let this change of events prevent anyone else from posting. Even if my dad does decide to stay permantly, I'm sure they are going to still have a pretty messed up relationship and my doubts about marriage aren't going to dissapate too soon. Hopefully sooner that later, though.

[Shirley Ujest]

The marriage you start out with is not the marriage you end up with."


This is a gem. I'm stealing it for future use.



My own experience ( married 13 years, together 18 years) is that the Big Issues
( Death, Illness, Major Catastrophic Situations. We went through more stuff before we were married than some couples who have been married 25-30 years.) We like a freakin' pit crew on the Indy 500. We each have our jobs to do and perform them flawlessly.

It is the Day to Day mundania that makes both of us shake our heads, mutter under our breath.

It isn't the Big Issues that drive couples apart, it's the little shit that does.

Death and Illness are so much easier to handle than, say, the daily reminder that your wonderful spouse could not find the dishwasher and put his dirty dishes in it , ( despite the fact he installed it) . You come to realize that it isn't that your spouse isn't capable or lazy, it is the fact that there is some kind of Spousal Deflector Sheild around said appliance.


Oh, and their will never be enough money.

[Scarlett67]

Scarlett, I'm sorry if this thread has insulted you.
Not insulted at all, just dismayed, as I said. My first thought on reading the OP was along the lines of, "Oh geez, not another one . . ."

There are good marriages and bad marriages. You get out of it what you put into it, same as anything else in life. Some people are badly matched and should never have gotten married in the first place. My parents are an example of that and possibly yours too. On the other hand, you have the people who are well matched and last for fifty years and die in each other's arms.

I had a rotten weekend because of a marriage gone wrong. Not mine, but friends of ours who've been married 20 years. He decided he didn't love his wife anymore and went sneaking around with another woman. I got the news of their separation on Sunday (knocked me on my ass, let me tell you) and the "Well, it's definitely over" message late last night. These were our oldest married friends. They moved a thousand miles away and we made sure to visit them every few years, and they got together with us when they came back to visit family. We thought their marriage was as strong as ours (and so did the wife, as she wrote this weekend). And as I wrote to her, I would never have dreamed this in a thousand years. I still feel sick and keep thinking that this can't be true, that I'll wake up and it will go away. Oh, and there are two kids.

People change and you never know what the future holds. But we can't sit in a corner cowering our whole lives because we're afraid of something bad happening. Mr. S had withdrawn himself from the dating pool after one too many failures, one too many rejections. Didn't think Ms. Right existed. A few months later I showed up and proved him wrong. Because of my parents' marriage, I had bad ideas about it too -- thought men were all scuzzballs like my dad, and because of other hard knocks I thought I'd have to "stifle" myself in any relationship I might manage to cobble together. But instead I found a man who loves me because of all my quirks, not in spite of them (and the same is true for him and his quirks). And every day (and especially after this weekend) I am actively and extremely grateful for that.

I think selfishness kills a lot of marriages. Some people get married and think they can just go on doing their own thing, oblivious to the fact that their actions affect another person now. You can't get married and keep horndogging every weekend to prove what a big stud you are. You can't just do whatever you feel like around the house because now it's someone else's house too. You need to involve someone else in your decisions now. If you're not willing to give up a little to accommodate someone else's needs and wants, then eventually someone is going to be unhappy.

[Autumn Almanac]

We fight fair; we don't bring up past resolved issues, and our main goal is compromise, not having a "winner" and a "loser."
I wanted to quote this for emphasis because it's great. One of the big misconceptions that people have about marriage, in my experience, is that happily married couples never fight and fighting is a sign of a failed/failing marriage. That's not true at all. The key is fighting constructively: using every fight as an opportunity to learn and improve, both the relationship and yourself as an individual.

[Acsenray]

Date a lot of people...don't settle in relationships until you are 25 or so. You should be meeting lots of people so you can see what you like in a person.

There are plenty of examples of successful relationships in which the parties have not dated a lot of people and/or have married young and there are plenty of examples of very unsuccessful relationships in which the parties have followed your advice. There are no guarantees. You just have to keep your eyes and ears open, be willing to make yourself vulnerable, and be accepting.

[norinew]

In my experience, the people who have been most successful in marriage are those who talked out the whole range of issues (money, kids, jobs, sex, chores, vacations, living conditions, etc.) before they married. Communication is essential all the time
That's pretty much how I feel. Hubby and I will be celebrating 18 years of marriage this November (been together for 22 years). I look at his two best friends, one of whom is divorced, and one of whom would be if he weren't so opposed to divorce from a religious angle. I look at my family, and the good and bad marriages in it. I look at my friends, and the good and bad marriages there. Again and again, the things consistently missing in the bad marriages are communication and courtesy. I think if you marry for "love" (which is sometimes only really strong lust), and never talk about things, the first time that wave of love ebbs (and it will), you're going to think it's over. Maybe it will be.

More important than marrying someone you love, I think, is marrying someone you like. Yes, love is important, but those romantic love type feelings really do ebb and flow. When the tide is out, living with the person is much easier if you still like them. Plus, if you're married to someone you like, and who likes you, you're much more likely to treat each other with respect and courtesy.

Of course, I also believe that some people just weren't cut out for marriage, the same way some people just aren't cut out for parenthood, or anything else, for that matter. There is no One Size Fits All answer. We all just have to try and find our own way.

[enipla]

Speaking to the OP, while I have not been married that long, I did see my parents get divorced right before I went to high school. My parents are divorced, though they are still amicable and in touch. Friends even though they are complete polar opposites.

I'm now happily married 9 years, together for 11. We married a little later in life at 37.

I guess my Wife and I have had one or two arguments. Mostly from a misunderstanding. We stand by each other at all times, and I know that she will always be there for me, and I her.

One thing I would recommend, is that if you are upset, think before you speak. I guess that goes for any aspect of life.

It is likely, that for any thing that gets under your skin, your SO also has one. No one is perfect.

A ‘honey, this kind of bugs me’, goes a lot further than ‘why did you do that’. Words can hurt. You must be careful how you use them.

I donno. My brother at 50 is marrying someone he met on the net a year ago. She lives in another state. They have spent very little real time together. Basically, a couple of long weekends.

And my brother has had a long history of dating somewhat questionable women (I’m being as nice as I can). The last six, including 3 that moved in with him, turned out to be disasters. To the point where he took the guns he owned and stored them with my Father. Didn't feel safe.

I’m trying to be optimistic for him and his new wife, but I just don’t know.

For you Cockatiel hang in there. I know that sounds trite, but you are young. These things happen. I have nothing but hope for my Brother and his new Wife. You can have hope that your Mom and Dad will be happier apart, and that you will still have a family. Maybe, in a few years a stronger family.

[Slypork]

When my aunt and uncle were celebrating their 25th anniversary, their kids said they were going to send them on a cruise for being happily married for 25 years. My uncle told them, “Wait until we’ve had 25 years of being happily married. I think that we’re maybe up to 10.”
My wife and I will have been married 17 years this November. It’s tough work, especially in the beginning. Before you make the commitment to each other you have to talk about hopes, dreams, plans. Would both of you work if kids come along or, if one stays home, who would it be? How many kids? Would you consider adopting? Public or private school? Apartment, townhouse, condo, house? City, ‘burbs, rural? Whose religion (if either) would you follow or raise the kids in? Etc.
Over the years we’ve had ups and downs. Lay-offs, money problems, multiple miscarriages, fertility problems, hospitalizations, adoption, home construction, moving headaches, annoying parents (both sides), sexual abuse (a neighbor’s kid touched our daughter), and so on. Through all of the problems and successes, we cling to each other. I sometimes compare us to a couple of drunks staggering down the street, each leaning on the other to stay upright. If the other one isn’t there, we both fall over.
What has made it work for us when I see it fail for my sister (two failed marriages), my cousin (3) or my friend (5) is that my wife and I were friends before we got married and stayed friends after. We can talk about any subject at any time. I will listen to her and respect her opinion and vice versa.
I feel that the people who say that marriage is just a legal form of living together, neglect one important aspect: marriage is a commitment, legally binding and, if you believe in it, sanctified. You are making a promise to stay together and share in the good and bad. You desire to make a life together. I think that it is too easy for people to move in together, discover things are tough, they don’t want to compromise and then move apart. I put up with finding her bra under the coffee table, she tolerates my snoring (I’m seeing a doctor about it, though). I learned to deal with her using the bathroom with the door open, she puts up with my sloppiness. We work out our differences. We have fought, we have argued, we’ve screamed and yelled. But we can’t think of any place we would rather be or anyone we would rather be with than each other.

[Cat Whisperer]

<snip>I feel that the people who say that marriage is just a legal form of living together, neglect one important aspect: marriage is a commitment, legally binding and, if you believe in it, sanctified. You are making a promise to stay together and share in the good and bad. <snip>
Absolutely. I think a lot of people go into marriage much too frivolously (I think that's what you're talking about, ChefGuy), wake up a couple of months later, and realize that they didn't think it through at all. Sometimes when you don't particularly love each other, you just let the commitment you made to each other carry you forward together, if you went into it with your eyes open and for the right reasons.

This is a great discussion, Cockatiel (sorry for the reason for it, though). I'm a firm believer that half the solution to problems is acknowledging that there *is* a problem - in talking and thinking about what you want in your own relationships, I think you'll be ahead of the game. Nobody has to follow in their parents' footsteps - you can make any kind of life for yourself that you decide to. If you decide you want a happy, fulfilling relationship and marriage, don't settle for less, and be prepared to work for it; happy marriages don't just happen to lucky people.

[Winkie]

I'm so sorry you're going through this, Cockatiel. Even though your dad is staying for now, it isn't easy to go through all this emotional upheaval. I second, third, whatever, the suggestion to talk to someone about your feelings - whether that person is a formal counselor or not.

WinkieHubby and I both watched our parents divorce in a fairly nasty fashion (he got to experience it twice after they remarried each other, lucky guy.) Neither of my parents have remarried; both of his parents have remarried, and his mother is divorced again.

We're about to celebrate our 10th anniversary, and have been together almost 14 years. I think we both took what we learned from our parents' failed relationship and went for the opposite. We're best friends and ALWAYS a team - which is what has kept us together through some big rough patches.

[tashabot]

Marriage is just the legal form of living together. If you're having problems with the person you're living with, things aren't going to change after some clown in a collar performs incantations over you and your best friend barfs all over his rented tux. Reality checks are critical before making a legally binding commitment to another person to whom you will be financially beholden should things not work out. Is this really someone you can stand to be around 24/7 for the forseeable future?

EXACTLY. I have a friend who's getting married soon and her and her fiance get into arguments constantly about everything (and are constantly miserable), and she thinks that after they get married that'll all go away. And I'm like "What, a piece of paper is going to change the fact that you guys actually hate each other?" I can't stand it when people just get married for the sake of getting married - marrying the first person you sleep with if you don't know for sure that you love them (and I must make the distinction that a lot of my female friends don't seem to understand: SEX DOES NOT EQUAL LOVE) probably isn't a good idea (now on the other hand, if you guys are so in love that you're making me sick, go for it).

Wheras I think I'm just overly cautious. My parents have a great marriage. They're as in love today as they were when they met each other at a Motley Crue concert 23 years ago. I've just seen enough of the BS in society to know that I take marriage more seriously than that - and while I can honestly say that I plan on spending the rest of my life with my boyfriend, I also don't want to rush something that may ruin what we have (which is, indeed, special). I don't intend on getting married, because I don't want to be lumped into that ever-increasing group of young'ns that rushed it and failed, but in, say, five, ten years, I don't think I'll be adverse to the idea, assuming we're still together, in love, and planning on staying that way.

(Although we're so eloping if we do; planning the seating at my best friend's wedding was pure hell and I'm not going through that again)

~Tashas

[Chefguy]

I think that it is too easy for people to move in together, discover things are tough, they don’t want to compromise and then move apart.

Not to put any words in your mouth, but surely you're not suggesting that hasty marriage, then kids, THEN discovering that they don't want to be together is a better option? I would rather test-drive the car and find out it rides like a haywagon than buy it and be stuck with the payments.

Unmarried people are as fully capable of committed, loving relationships for long periods of time as are those who are married. Sanctity is a concept foisted on us by organized religion, IMO, but let's not start that argument here. My present spouse and I were married by a JP and things are just peachy. The only reason we got married at all was because we were in the Foreign Service and had no hope of being assigned together unless we were hitched.

[norinew]

Not to put any words in your mouth, but surely you're not suggesting that hasty marriage, then kids, THEN discovering that they don't want to be together is a better option?
That's not really how I read that post. In the first place, marriage doesn't have to be "hasty". In fact, in spite of the fact that my in-laws have been happily married for 53 years, following a 3-month courtship, I think taking your time is a good idea. In the second place, marriage doesn't have to be immediately followed by kids. My husband and I had an 18-month-old when we got married. Didn't have the second one until we'd been married for almost three years. We were married 12 years when we had the third one. I know of at least one happily married couple, married for ten years or more, who have deliberately not had kids, and not going to have kids. There's more than one way to skin a cat, you know.

[Nava]

Absolutely. I think a lot of people go into marriage much too frivolously (I think that's what you're talking about, ChefGuy), wake up a couple of months later, and realize that they didn't think it through at all. Sometimes when you don't particularly love each other, you just let the commitment you made to each other carry you forward together, if you went into it with your eyes open and for the right reasons.


While I never had a debate class in high school, most of my teachers invited debate. One day in 12th grade we were talking about marriage (the divorce law was a very recent development) and reached the following conclusion, which may or may not be true...

"Many people, when they think about marrying their bf/gf, whom they may have known for as little as a week and actually seen only for two hours, they get all starry eyed... they think of having a big party paid by their parents and of happily ever after... they think about how gorgeous this person looks on a saturday night at the dance. They don't think about morning breath and toothaches and children crying. In order to work, a marriage has to be undertaken by people who know about morning breath."
"Yeah, and about paying the bills!" *class chorus: AAAAMEN*

[Sunspace]

In order to work, a marriage has to be undertaken by people who know about morning breath."This deserves to be on one's best dress T-shirt. Or sig. :)

[Lissa]

More important than marrying someone you love, I think, is marrying someone you like. Yes, love is important, but those romantic love type feelings really do ebb and flow. When the tide is out, living with the person is much easier if you still like them. Plus, if you're married to someone you like, and who likes you, you're much more likely to treat each other with respect and courtesy.

Very well said.

Those feelings of giddy infatuation and knee-trembling passion mellow after a time. It's inevitable. Anyone who doesn't think that it does has been watching too many romantic movies. Friendship and mutual respect are what lasts and holds a good marriage together.

Personally, I think this is the cause of many divorces. Couples somehow have a vague expectation that married life will be nothing but an endless honeymoon and when those feelings begin to cool, they aren't happy any longer. They feel that something must be "missing" and when a person comes along who stirs those feelings up again, they think the problem must be with their partner. So they leave, settle in with the new partner only to begin the cycle anew. They'll never be happy because they're expecting something that really doesn't exist.

Quoth Lissa (happily married to her best friend for almost eight years.)

[Slypork]

Not to put any words in your mouth, but surely you're not suggesting that hasty marriage, then kids, THEN discovering that they don't want to be together is a better option?
Of course not. The old fashioned term was “courtship”, a time when you got to know the person better and discover their likes and dislikes. My wife and I dated for two years before we married and waited another two years before we got pregnant.
Sanctity is a concept foisted on us by organized religion, IMO, but let's not start that argument here. In my post I stated:
marriage is a commitment, legally binding and, if you believe in it, sanctified.
I know many people married by JPs (and one by an Elvis impersonator) who have had long, successful marriages. I know many people that were married by priests, rabbis, ministers and, in one case, a Buddhist monk that have had miserable marriages followed by equally miserable divorces.
My issue is that when you are living together, there is no sense of permanence. You share a house, utilities, bills. But, if things get crappy, you can just pick up your marbles and skip town. If you have kids you are responsible to them, but not to the person who you shared ups and downs with. Designating someone as a “domestic partner” does not make you a committed person.
My friend lived with a girl for 5 years, the whole time saying that a piece of paper didn’t mean anything. When they were both laid off and were fighting all the time, he decided he didn’t want to deal with her crap anymore and left. He moved back to his parents. Six months later he moved in with another woman. Did that for two years. Similar shit, same outcome.
I’m not saying that married people don’t fight and get frustrated and want to pack up. But being married is a legal contract binding two people together. It makes severing the union more difficult and expensive. It causes people to think before they get into the marriage and think before they try to get out.

[tashabot]

My friend lived with a girl for 5 years, the whole time saying that a piece of paper didn’t mean anything. When they were both laid off and were fighting all the time, he decided he didn’t want to deal with her crap anymore and left. He moved back to his parents. Six months later he moved in with another woman. Did that for two years. Similar shit, same outcome.
I’m not saying that married people don’t fight and get frustrated and want to pack up. But being married is a legal contract binding two people together. It makes severing the union more difficult and expensive. It causes people to think before they get into the marriage and think before they try to get out.

I have to say that I don't think very highly of that friend. My boyfriend and I have fought, have gotten into real arguments, over our finances. We've never once thought about severing our relationship just because we have no money for food or gas or cigarettes or rent. We just buck up, pawn something, and hug each other and say "I love you." That piece of paper doesn't mean shit to us - our relationship, our love, does. It's a moral issue between the two of us, not a contract issue.

~Tasha

[msmith537]

Couples somehow have a vague expectation that married life will be nothing but an endless honeymoon and when those feelings begin to cool, they aren't happy any longer. They feel that something must be "missing" and when a person comes along who stirs those feelings up again, they think the problem must be with their partner. So they leave, settle in with the new partner only to begin the cycle anew. They'll never be happy because they're expecting something that really doesn't exist.



Sure they'll be happy. Just not in marriage. Some people just like the excitment of a new realtionship or meeting someone for the first time or whatever. Marriage might not be for them.

[msmith537]

Another thing I thought I'd point out is that some people don't like being told what to do or having to do things they do want to. Marriage might not be for those folks.

[stargazer]

I think another important factor to making a marriage work is realizing (preferably before the vows) that you are choosing, when you take those vows, to love that person for the rest of your life. I don't mean that you are choosing to "be in love" or feel the romantic love that our society thinks is the be-all-end-all. I mean that you are choosing to act with love toward that person every day for the rest of your life, whether you feel like it or not. *

A lot of Christians that I have known think that 1 Corinthians 13 ("Love is patient, love is kind..." etc.) describes how they will feel when they are in love with someone, and wait for that feeling to transform them into a patient, kind person. I think this is completely backwards; love is what you do, and if I love my husband I will do my best to be patient, kind, and all the rest, every day, even when he's driving me nuts. That's the choice and the promise I made when I married him. I don't always succeed, of course, but I try -- and I find that a lot of the time, acting as if I'm not annoyed at him will make me actually not be annoyed at him.

I second what someone said upthread; it really helps if you like the person, because it's pretty much guaranteed that you won't always feel in love with them.


*Exceptions possible, of course, especially for things like abuse. I don't think one should stay in a bad relationship just out of cussedness. I mean, if you hate the person, and act like it, the vows are already broken, aren't they?

[Lissa]

Sure they'll be happy. Just not in marriage. Some people just like the excitment of a new realtionship or meeting someone for the first time or whatever. Marriage might not be for them.

Sure-- if they realize that marriage isn't for them. Some people just keep trying it over and over.

Some people see marriage as an almost inevitable destination in a serious relationship. They're uncomfortable with the notion of serial monogomy-- they feel like they have to commit. They fully intend to stay with their current partner forever but their discontent starts to erode their determination. They then move on to the next partner, again, fully intending to stay with them forever but find that sadly familiar unhappiness creep over them.

One woman I know has been married four times. She's now in her late forties and feeling desperate to "have someone" again. Not for a fling, mind you. She likes the idea of growing old together but no one thus far has managed to give her what she wants. (She'd consider the idea of just staying with someone until the spark is gone as being "slutty.")