If you set up a house as "burglar bait", how many could you off before they got wise?

[astro]

Let's say you buy a house in a rundown section of town, and fix it up and fill it with neat, desirable valuables & tech toys. Your ulterior motive is that (for whatever reason) you want this to be a "burglar trap", and you have it set up so that the house appears to be empty, but in reality you are still onsite and can monitor the house, and there are a series of diabolical traps that (if activated) will cost intruders their lives. You then collect and dispose of the bodies off-site.

Ultimately, who's going two put two and two together and tell on you? What are you going to tell the police? "Umm... my buddy was going to rob this house, but he went in and we never saw him again".

Do bad guys communicate with each other about jobs they're going to do? Is there usually someone looking out for the welfare of the criminals who go on jobs? How many burglars would disappear before someone made the connection that criminals go in but they don't get out?

[TheLoadedDog]

Dude, you are sick!

But I'm fascinated by the concept. So I am sick!

I have no idea, but I'll be watching this thread closely. I find stuff like this interesting.

[Foxy40]

Interesting thought process you've got there.

My thoughts are this. You'd probably get away with the first one if he was acting alone. Not because he wouldn't tell anyone his plan but I don't think they would get the connection. The word on the street would spread enough that if another thief went missing who had planned to hit the same house, the authorities would be notified by either a "street informer" or an innocent bystander in the neighborhood.

So, yeah...a one, a two.....nailed and your house of horror would be shut down.

Now whether a jury of your peers would find you guilty, that is another story and another thread.

[DrDeth]

Have you been reading this book?
The Devil in the White City: Murder, Magic, and Madness at the Fair That Changed America"

See here for more info:
http://www.prairieghosts.com/holmes.html
"The building was an imposing structure of three stories and a basement, with false battlements and wooden bay windows that were covered with sheet iron. There were over 60 rooms in the structure and 51 doors that were cut oddly into various walls. Holmes acted as his own architect for the place and he personally supervised the numerous construction crews, all of whom were quickly hired and fired, discharging them with great fury and refusing to pay their wages. ...In addition to the eccentric general design, the house was also fitted with trap doors, hidden staircases, secret passages, rooms without windows, chutes that led into the basement and a staircase that opened out over a steep drop to the alley behind the house....Holmes also had an office on the second floor, but most of the rooms were to be used for guests -- guests that would never be seen again. Evidence would later be found to show that Holmes used some of the rooms as "asphyxiation chambers", where his victims were suffocated with gas. Other chambers were lined with iron plates and had blowtorch-like devices fitted into the walls. In the basement, Holmes installed a dissecting table and maintained his own crematory. There was also an acid vat and pits filled with quicklime, where bodies could be conveniently disposed of. "

[Lionne]

First, I would rent Home Alone...

Then I would rent Home Alone: Lost in New York....

Then...I'd have all the ideas I need for my nefarious schemes!

[The Weird One]

Let's say you buy a house in a rundown section of town
<snip>
and you have it set up so that the house appears to be empty
(bolding mine)

Honestly, I think you're going to wind up knocking off a few homeless people looking for shelter and some high school kids looking for thrills and a place to get drunk. The authorities will be notified after the kids go missing, and you'll be in all kinds of trouble. Burglars break into houses in order to steal things; they're not likely to break into an empty house in a poor neighborhood.

[Annie-Xmas]

Have you been reading this book?
The Devil in the White City: Murder, Magic, and Madness at the Fair That Changed America"

See here for more info:
http://www.prairieghosts.com/holmes.html

Here's what Unca Cecil (http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a2_455.html) wrote about Mr. Holmes.

[Zsofia]

Do you really think thieves are so networked? (An honest question.) I've always assumed that most of the people who might break into my house are drug addicts or young thug types looking for a quick buck, jewelry, guns, something to pawn. Not really "thieves" in the movie sense. (I know there are real professional thieves out there, but I figure they're not the ones I'm worried about - they wouldn't be robbing me, and if they did I probably couldn't keep them out at all. I just worry about discouraging the other type.) Why would an addict who's about to break my window to steal my computer tell anybody?

[An Arky]

I don't have a cite, but I do know it's illegal. I recall a case where a guy's store kept getting broken into, so he rigged up a deadly booby trap. It worked, but he got busted.

However, if you were really good at it (i.e. only kill people that won't be missed), I'm sure you wouldn't get busted.

[astro]

(bolding mine)

Honestly, I think you're going to wind up knocking off a few homeless people looking for shelter and some high school kids looking for thrills and a place to get drunk. The authorities will be notified after the kids go missing, and you'll be in all kinds of trouble. Burglars break into houses in order to steal things; they're not likely to break into an empty house in a poor neighborhood.

I should have been clearer, not "empty" as in "no one lives there" permanently vacated, but empty as in - it's a well taken care of house, but there is no car in the driveway, and it appears no one is at home during the day. In other words it should appear as if the person has gone to work, but the house might normally be occupied.

[astro]

Do you really think thieves are so networked? (An honest question.) I've always assumed that most of the people who might break into my house are drug addicts or young thug types looking for a quick buck, jewelry, guns, something to pawn. Not really "thieves" in the movie sense. (I know there are real professional thieves out there, but I figure they're not the ones I'm worried about - they wouldn't be robbing me, and if they did I probably couldn't keep them out at all. I just worry about discouraging the other type.) Why would an addict who's about to break my window to steal my computer tell anybody?

Exactly! Who's going to know!

[Annie-Xmas]

What if the burgular has a gun and takes you out?

[astro]

What if the burgular has a gun and takes you out?


The house is designed and built so that the burglar will be trapped and terminated without the need for a direct mano a mano confrontation. You will be in a secure area of the house monitoring the intruders progress until the time is right to spring the selected trap.

[The Weird One]

I should have been clearer, not "empty" as in "no one lives there" permanently vacated, but empty as in - it's a well taken care of house, but there is no car in the driveway, and it appears no one is at home during the day. In other words it should appear as if the person has gone to work, but the house might normally be occupied.
Oops, I misunderstood. That makes a lot more sense. Assuming that no accomplices get away and the breakers-in don't mention your address, you could probably take care of quite a few. I think the accomplices would be the tricky part. If someone posts a look-out outside of the house or has his friend waiting in the get-away car, you're probably busted. (Unless the guy doesn't report it.)

[Who_me?]

I think you might get a couple, but word would get out and either the police or friends of the dead burglers would be looking for you. Plus, getting rid of the body may be a bit of a problem, although the real CSI people aren't as magical as the ones on television, they aren't too bad.

My question is, how are you going to get into and out of the house? Just because a house looks empty at the time, doesn't mean that the neighbors don't know you're there.

[DrDeth]

. Plus, getting rid of the body may be a bit of a problem, although the real CSI people aren't as magical as the ones on television, they aren't too bad.


They are if they want to invest the time and resources. But I laffed my ass off when I saw CSI doing an investigation of a homeless dude. :dubious:

So as long as the house was only netting cheap hoods, the investigations would be rather shallow.

Actaully, somewhere this is possibly going on right as we type. If your prey is cheap hoods, druggies, the homeless, etc- and you don't have enough of a pattern so as it looks like a serial killer- you could claim quite a few before anyone got wise. Eventually however, some dugged out senators son would stumble in, and they'd spend a megabuck finding out what happened, and you'd be caught.

Here in SF, there have been nearly 70 murders this year- most of which appear to be gangbangers and drug dealers preying on each other. So far, the police don't seem to be doing much. :( The sheer number is finally getting some political action.

[The Great Sun Jester]

Plus, getting rid of the body may be a bit of a problem...

Fried Green Tomatoes

[Hodge]

Actaully, somewhere this is possibly going on right as we type. If your prey is cheap hoods, druggies, the homeless, etc- and you don't have enough of a pattern so as it looks like a serial killer- you could claim quite a few before anyone got wise.This brought to mind Robert Picton (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Picton). He got away with luring and murdering junkies and prostitutes for possibly decades before the Vancouver authorities were essentially shamed into action. IIRC, a relative or friend of one of his victims posted here on the SDMB tyring to publicize her case before he was eventually caught. Heartbreaking stuff.

[astro]

This brought to mind Robert Picton (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Picton). He got away with luring and murdering junkies and prostitutes for possibly decades before the Vancouver authorities were essentially shamed into action. IIRC, a relative or friend of one of his victims posted here on the SDMB tyring to publicize her case before he was eventually caught. Heartbreaking stuff.


Excavations have stopped, but were ongoing for two years; the cost of the investigation is estimated to have been $70 million by the end of 2003

What? That's over 2 million dollars per discovered body. What the hell are they spending that money on?

[commasense]

A slight variation on the OP's idea is playing out in a subplot on HBO's The Wire, the fourth of which season just started last Sunday. In it, a couple of drug dealers take their victims into boarded-up abandoned slum houses and kill them, then cover the corpses in lime. After they leave, they replace the plywood panel they took off to get in.

So no one knows for sure that the victim is dead, and the body is in a place where it isn't likely to be discovered by accident or become an inconvenience to anyone very soon. Over at the thread on The Wire (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=387470), we're debating, like the OP, how long they'll be able to get away with it. I'm guessing quite a while.

[Annie-Xmas]

Don't do this in a neighborhood where the neighbors will call the police if they see anything suspious. The cops might walk in on your little scheme.

[DrDeth]

Don't do this in a neighborhood where the neighbors will call the police if they see anything suspious. The cops might walk in on your little scheme.

I think I can make this simpler: "Don't do this " :p

[Diceman]

I think the accomplices would be the tricky part. If someone posts a look-out outside of the house or has his friend waiting in the get-away car, you're probably busted. (Unless the guy doesn't report it.)
The odds of the accomplice calling the police would be pretty slim. That would require him to admit to being an accessory to a crime. Still, word would get around about the incident. You'd need a pretty good way to get rid of the body, so that no one would ever know what exactly happened to the guy.

[Green Bean]

Okay, so it's not legally okay to premeditatively (is that a word?) lure and kill burglars.

What if, instead of killing the intruder, you set things up so that the intruder is just trapped. Like closing him into a cage or something, where he won't be hurt, but will be securely held. Then calling the police to come get him. Is there anything legally wrong with that?

[danceswithcats]

Okay, so it's not legally okay to premeditatively (is that a word?) lure and kill burglars.

What if, instead of killing the intruder, you set things up so that the intruder is just trapped. Like closing him into a cage or something, where he won't be hurt, but will be securely held. Then calling the police to come get him. Is there anything legally wrong with that? Where's the fun in that?

[robertliguori]

Where's the fun in that?


The cage is airtight?

[danceswithcats]

The cage is airtight? I was thinking of something more evil and torturous, possibly involving boiling drain cleaner, fire ants, or a one way trip to Detroit.

[lavenderviolet]

I don't think you would get away with this for very long. I'd think that burglars would tend to hang out with others who don't see burglary as much of a taboo, so it wouldn't surprise me if they mentioned to their family/friends/acquaintances that they were going to a certain house or neighborhood to rob it.
In fact, that's something I can't understand about how Holmes got away with all those terrible murders. I can't believe that, of all those victims, *none* of them mentioned to their family or friends anything about where they were headed so that, when they turned up missing, the trail could have been followed to Holmes. What a disturbing story, at any rate. Unbelievable how sadistic some people can be.

[Green Bean]

Where's the fun in that?
Well, I guess the fun would be in engaging in some legal vigilanteism--presuming it is legal, of course. And figuring out different ways to lure the would-be burglars into the house.

Granted, it wouldn't be as fun as using boiling drain cleaner or pits full of vipers and sharks or anything, but if it would keep you out of jail?

[Foxy40]

Exactly! Who's going to know!

I can tell by that quote that you have never had much connection with the criminal element.

Junkies and thieves tell EVERYONE when they score. They tell their friends, they tell their girlfriend, they brag to everyone that will listen. Why do you think houses get hit more than once? Not always the same person but someone else heard how easy it was and what kind of great stuff was to be had.

If you are thinking like a good citizen of course YOU wouldn't tell anyone but you have to remember, that most times the authorities are the enemy and even when an innocent person hears about the break in, they would never tell.

[Musicat]

Plus, getting rid of the body may be a bit of a problem.Maybe not, if you're a good cook. (http://imdb.com/title/tt0083869/)

[Hogwash]

Junkies and thieves tell EVERYONE when they score. They tell their friends, they tell their girlfriend, they brag to everyone that will listen. Why do you think houses get hit more than once? Not always the same person but someone else heard how easy it was and what kind of great stuff was to be had.

But the kicker here is that they'll never score because they'll be killed in the process. Unless thieves and junkies tell everyone before they rob a location, none of their cohorts will know their last job before they went missing, surely?

I've always thought that it would be easy to kill people and get away with it. I mean, who leaves the weapon lying around the scene or in the bushes nearby? Who dumps the body in the local lake instead of taking it hundreds of miles away or disposing of it more efficiently? I suppose, DNA evidence has made things a lot trickier.

However, you'd probably come undone by something really trivial that you never thought would trip you up. How many times have we seen those cop shows where the puzzled investigators were helped along by a chance encounter with someone or something that blows the whole thing wide open? Somebody changed their routine for one day. Someone left a ticket-stub on the floor. The killer dropped a button.

Every time you kill a burglar (or anyone, for that matter), you roll the dice. After enough rolls, your number will come up. For every person you kill, you disrupt the routines of their co-workers, friends, girlfriends, dry cleaners and so on. Even loner junkies are links in a chain, however small that chain may be. If you dick around with the system, it will likely bite you in the ass somewhere down the line.

Say, in this scenario, you have killed a burglar, dumped the body and no living soul but you knows about it. However, you have to repair the door that the now-dead thief kicked in. Your neighbour sees you fixing a smashed lock and starts asking questions. Do you lie or say that you were burgled? What about the next time, and the time after that? What if the neighbour tells a cop friend that you've been burgled 3 times in the last month? What if the cop friend, bored at work, makes inquiries and finds no crime records on that property for years? A bit strange for somebody not to report burglaries on their property, isn't it?

In modern society, nothing exists in a vacuum, and it is for this reason that such a plan is fatally flawed.

[Hypno-Toad]

A complicating factor is the burglars vehicle. If he really wants to clean the place out, he may have a moving van (Maybe even rented). It may be parked at your place. It may be parked elsewhere until the thief is ready to come get it. If cars start piling up in your neighborhood that all belong to men with criminal histories, that might make police pretty suspicious.

Also, there are thief teams. One or two helpers can really help a guy clean out a house of even the big stuff fairly quickly. If one gets away, he just might risk the heat of identifying you, especially if the guy you nailed was his brother or close friend.

[Diogenes the Cynic]

I think the concept needs a robot clown and some puzzle traps...and a secret passageway leading to a mysterious, filthy bathroom.

[astro]

I think the concept needs a robot clown and some puzzle traps...and a secret passageway leading to a mysterious, filthy bathroom.


Whoa... slow down there Dio, I'm taking notes as fast as I can.

[Boyo Jim]

I don't think you could get away with this for long in a city neighborhood. Personally I think sound would be your biggest enemy. People can get very NOISY while dying. And I imagine this could be even worse with some kind of automated death house. A booby trap might badly wound someone who could take hours to koudly die. Or the rigged shotgun firing would itself be heard.

You might say, "Ah, but I'll make the house soundproof". But... the burglar has to break in, and it would be extremely difficult and probably impossible for the house to automatically seal itself airtightly behind a break-in.

If you want to make this an ongoing proposition, you need human intervention in the process. You can have the house trap the burglar -- but you need more flexibility on how and when to make the kill.

[appleciders]

Boyo Jim, you're right that you can't soundproof a house perfectly, but I think it's possible to do a better job that you give credit for. Things like cork on the ceiling, heavy drapes on the walls, thick shag carpeting, and large, soft furniture like sofas can all absorb lots of sound; while I agree a house couldn't be perfectly soundproofed, I think you could do a good enough job to cover up anything short of said shotgun blast and ensuing screaming as long as you killed the burglar at least one or two rooms away from where he(/she, I suppose) broke in and breached your soundproofing. Something like a fairly fast acting poison or a trap door dropping into the basement (into the snake pit, preferably) would keep the burglar either quiet or far enough from the door that it wouldn't be too much trouble.

You're right that no booby trap could act this well without human intervention, but astro is assuming some human intervention:
The house is designed and built so that the burglar will be trapped and terminated without the need for a direct mano a mano confrontation. You will be in a secure area of the house monitoring the intruders progress until the time is right to spring the selected trap.
Presumably, you can spring the trap effectively enough to kill the intruder, and you can get out of this secure part of the house in time to finish off the burglar with your silenced assault rifle or 1920s style death ray.

Foxy40, I'll freely admit that I have no experience with the criminal element, but do these petty thieves and junkies brag before or after they've hit a house? If it's after, it may not be a factor. And Hypno-Toad is definately right about needing to take care of the getaway car. If there's a getaway driver, it's a mixed blessing; you've got no way to kill him, but he's unlikely to go to the cops and implicate himself.

Can any legal-type Dopers give us a hint at whether the getaway driver's word that his buddy didn't come out of this house is enough for the cops to get a search warrant for the house?

[Hypno-Toad]

For soundproofing, you can make all the doors in the house the self closing, spring-hinge type. Which locks silently. That way, the guy might get in quite a bit before realizing he can't get out.

[don't ask]

At least 8....so far

[Cervaise]

If he really wants to clean the place out, he may have a moving vanThis was the first thing I thought of. I read a few years ago that because Americans in recent decades are, for whatever reason, tending to shun the company of their immediate neighbors, crews of well-organized burglars are able to pull a moving van into a target house's driveway and, in full view of the neighborhood, empty the house completely, without anybody getting suspicious. For myself, if there were suddenly a lot of moving-type activity around the house on my left, I wouldn't know whether or not it was legit.

Presuming there's something to this, what's your plan for getting rid of the vehicle?

[astro]

This was the first thing I thought of. I read a few years ago that because Americans in recent decades are, for whatever reason, tending to shun the company of their immediate neighbors, crews of well-organized burglars are able to pull a moving van into a target house's driveway and, in full view of the neighborhood, empty the house completely, without anybody getting suspicious. For myself, if there were suddenly a lot of moving-type activity around the house on my left, I wouldn't know whether or not it was legit.

Presuming there's something to this, what's your plan for getting rid of the vehicle?

If it's a bad neighborhood I imagine that problem will take usually care of itself re an unattended vehicle.

[Cervaise]

If it's a bad neighborhood I imagine that problem will take usually care of itself re an unattended vehicle.No, actually, on further consideration, there's a more complicated logistical concern here. Seems to me that any burglars organized enough to use the moving-van method are going to be working in teams, say three people at minimum, because that will make the operation appear legitimate to the casual neighborhood observer. What happens when one of the burglars notices that their compatriots have gone missing? If you've got several guys who are planning to go in and out on a staggered basis, the fact that there's a problem will become obvious almost immediately.

[Hypno-Toad]

Presuming there's something to this, what's your plan for getting rid of the vehicle?

First, I'd have to have outdoor surveillance to see where the intruder came from. Then get the keys from the corpse to drive it off and dump it somewhere.

As for teams of guys, I might try to create rooms that had really valuable things that required two or more people to lift. A smallish safe might be a good idea. That way, the burglars would have to get two or more people to move it and you could trap them all in a kill room. It would have to be something that was not so heavy that they wouldn't try to open it there or just leave it.

Another method to handle teams might be to divide and conquer. Lock them into separate rooms for convienant disposal.

[Boyo Jim]

Well. if you're going to have to deal with criminal teams, then I think you need to be able to seal rhe whole house, and flood everything with poison gas. And then some kind of decontamination or neutralizing gas to clean things out afterward.

I think you could probably get away with attaching extra gear to a forced-air heating or AC system.

[flurb]

First off, I find it hard to believe that the local miscreants are going to just say to themselves, "Golly, here's new mansion full of plasma screen TVs in the middle of cracktown -- what a break!" Your proposed scenario is so anomolous that they're going to assume it's a trick or a trap. And if they do decide to test the waters, they're going to be more likely to take precautions like working in a team, closely surveiling the premises and probably just jumping you when you come out of the panic room to do your grocery shopping.

Also, I assume that the residents in your imaginary 'hood are going to get a bit suspicious when some stranger buys a run down house, pumps tons of money into fixing it up and filling it with high-tech goodies, then disappears. I think your house is going to be surveilled around the clock, not necessarily by theives, but by curious neighbors.