Student refused to write an outline about an essay on Harry Potter

[Incubus]

I teach a class on Saturdays on building study skills. Earlier today, I had one of my three students refuse to do an assignment. The reason? Because it involved Harry Potter :rolleyes: . He started to explain why, but then I think he kind of realized that if he went too far into it, the other students might make fun of him for being the only kid in class who isn't supposed to read Harry Potter. Or he was afraid I would get mad at him.

The thing is, I wasn't making them read Harry Potter. They were asked to read a sample response to an essay question about Harry Potter, and construct an outline of the essay. For all he knew, the essay could have shared the same kinds of attidues he did about the book, but he wasn't even willing to read it to find out.

This hit a nerve for me. I really hate being in situations like this, because it makes me sad when young people demonstrate ignorance to the point of being unwilling to look into why they should shun a book/music genre/etc. Perhaps I should be more upset at the parents who are putting these influences on kids. However, it isn't any of my business to pass judgement on my students, and I'd hate to have them feel that I am persecuting them for their beliefs, even if those beliefs perpetuate ignorance. So I tried to be as diplomatic and objective as possible about it, and basically told them that it is a good idea to try to have an open mind about things, even if you do not agree/approve. If anything, you'd have a better understanding of why you don't approve of it.

After class, I had rather mixed feelings about my reaction, mainly because I didn't want to overreact to what happened. A part of me considered simply giving him an alternate assignment, but I didn't really know if that was fair to the other students, especially since the student in question refused to go into any detail on why he didn't want to do the assignment.

The reality of the situation is that there are many possibilities- perhaps he has crazy fundie parents, or perhaps he simply threw me a curveball and tested my reaction to try to get out of work. I really try to take these matters professionally and follow my former manager's advice- Don't allow my own prejudices to get in the way of learning. Still, I have to admit, when something like this comes along, it is pretty hard for me to keep my mouth shut.

[Snooooopy]

Sacrifice him to Satan, as Harry Potter commands shall be done to all who refuse to honor him.

[Incubus]

Whoops meant to say attitudes and judgment before any grammar nazis point it out.

[Incubus]

Sacrifice him to Satan, as Harry Potter commands shall be done to all who refuse to honor him.

You know, I really wish I could react without holding back. What I do worry about, though, is the parents actually being real fundie whackjobs, and twisting that into, "That man forced my son to read Harry Potter!" "That study class teaches sins!" and make big brouhaha about it. Since a lot of our clientele comes through word-of-mouth, its not the kind of attention I want.

[MrDantastic]

How old is the student?

If the student is pretty young, I would guess he doesn't really even know why, and he's just repeating whatever some influential adult is saying.

[susan]

"Grammar nazis"!? Shit, man, we're just trying to improve your essay writing skills!

I have had to give the class an assignment and then take a student out of the room to explain what the problem with Harry Potter is a few times. I find this very annoying, but usually get a better sense of the student's concern and can come up with a compromise assignment (like seeing if the student is willing to read the essay and then write a response that reflects her/his position but, say, uses a topic sentence and supporting arguments). This is at the college level, though, so allegations that I corrupted someone's little darling by exposing it to an award-winning book.

[susan]

FRAG

...are moot. That is all.

[astro]

Good Lord! You actually have the stones to come off as the aggrieved party in this mess!

Assuming this is not a college class, with all due respect I think it was pretty clueless of you, as a teacher, to assign any kind of a reading analysis that had anything to do with Harry Potter, even once removed in an essay question about Harry Potter. I'm as far from a fundie as you an get and still be in the known universe, but you, of all people, especially as an SDMB member should know that introducing anything to do with Harry Potter is like playing Whack-a-Mole with fundie hot buttons, and now because you wanted to be cute you embarrassed the hell out of an innocent kid who's caught between his parents and you.

There is literature other than Harry Potter out there that would have served the same purpose re interpretation without being polarizing.

You knew better. Shame on you.

[Incubus]

How old is the student?

If the student is pretty young, I would guess he doesn't really even know why, and he's just repeating whatever some influential adult is saying.

He's in 8th grade, and talking to him about other (safer) topics, I am fairly sure he is mature enough to understand why. Another factor might be that he's struggling in school and gets yelled at frequently by his parents over mundane things- It wouldn't be surprising if he balked at doing anything he feared his parents would flip out over.

[Incubus]

Good Lord! You actually have the stones to come off as the aggrieved party in this mess!

Assuming this is not a college class, with all due respect I think it was pretty clueless of you, as a teacher, to assign any kind of a reading analysis that had anything to do with Harry Potter, even once removed in an essay question about Harry Potter. I'm as far from a fundie as you an get and still be in the known universe, but you, of all people, especially as an SDMB member should know that introducing anything to do with Harry Potter is like playing Whack-a-Mole with fundie hot buttons, and now because you wanted to be cute you embarrassed the hell out of an innocent kid who's caught between his parents and you.

There is literature other than Harry Potter out there that would have served the same purpose re interpretation without being polarizing.

You knew better. Shame on you.

I didn't choose the material. The class is taught with a workbook that we use to go through methods of study, organization and sample questions. I'm guessing the author of the workbook intended the topic to be something pupils might be able to relate to, but you do have a point (if you were being serious and not just yanking my chain). I'll make it a point to talk to my managers about this matter next Monday.

[susan]

It might also be that he hasn't read Harry Potter, misunderstood your assignment, and balked because he doesn't want to be exposed to the other kids as not having read HP.

[kittenblue]

Why don't you just rewrite the sample essay, changing the names to something un-Harry Potterish, and let him do the assignment using that version? Then he'll get do to the assignment, but won't have those dreaded Harry Potter words staring him in the face.

[Incubus]

Why don't you just rewrite the sample essay, changing the names to something un-Harry Potterish, and let him do the assignment using that version? Then he'll get do to the assignment, but won't have those dreaded Harry Potter words staring him in the face.

The problem is there simply isn't any time- the class is exactly 90 minutes long and doesn't really allow for last-minute revisions to adapt to the tastes of each individual student. There's also the aspect of playing favorites- I work very hard to ensure I give all three of my students equal attention and respect, and that includes being equal about my expectations on following directions.

[susan]

I think that if a student has a moral objection to reading something, you can provide an alternate assignment. I absolutely don't think that the material should be expurgated from a general text or curriculum. If you go that way, soon you're left with bland nothingness in your curriculum and it's impossible to teach people how to listen to divergent perspectives, construct a rebuttal, or use any rhetorical device other than arguments ad hominem. I've had to teach within a curriculum like that, and it wasn't any fun for anybody, including the students.

[susan]

Also, the student may take a conscientious objector stance, not complete the assignment, and accept the consequences of his or her actions.

[AHunter3]

Let him do a book report on His Dark Materials instead. :)

[Incubus]

I think that if a student has a moral objection to reading something, you can provide an alternate assignment. I absolutely don't think that the material should be expurgated from a general text or curriculum. If you go that way, soon you're left with bland nothingness in your curriculum and it's impossible to teach people how to listen to divergent perspectives, construct a rebuttal, or use any rhetorical device other than arguments ad hominem. I've had to teach within a curriculum like that, and it wasn't any fun for anybody, including the students.

I had considered giving him an alternate assignment, but a big part of this class is collaborating and not only being encouraged to ask plenty of questions (I love answering questions) but also to help each other so that nobody feels 'behind' or 'out of place'. I feel that giving him a different assignment will alienate him from the class, and be just as bad as insisting he go through with the assignment. It also sets an example to students that they can weasel out of work if they come up with a creative enough excuse (i.e. "oh, I can't do this, its offensive to my...uh...race, yeah, this is racist, can't do it, sorry!") . Incidentally, the other two students were also trying to talk him into just doing the assignment, and also reassured him he wasn't being made to read Harry Potter, it was just a sample essay someone else wrote.

[susan]

Let him do a book report on His Dark Materials instead. :)Great idea. And maybe something by a lesbian communist next week?

[AHunter3]

Actually, in all seriousness, what if:

You told him to write an analysis of why and how Harry Potter is evil. But every claim about the content, purpose, or inner meaning of the various Harry Potter books must be supported with a citation. Tell the student "You are totally entitled to harboring your own dissenting opinion. But know thine enemy. You have to show me you are familiar with what you say is evil, and document each claim."

Or would the little Bible-thumper be able to download all that from the internet and avoid touching J K Rowling?

[susan]

The whole business annoys me.

"The six [HP] books have collectively sold more than 300 million copies" according to Wikipedia. It's way mainstream literature.

[Wendell Wagner]

Incubus writes:

> The thing is, I wasn't making them read Harry Potter. They were asked to read
> a sample response to an essay question about Harry Potter, and construct an
> outline of the essay. For all he knew, the essay could have shared the same
> kinds of attidues he did about the book, but he wasn't even willing to read it to
> find out.

This doesn't make *any* sense to me. What was the essay question, what was the sample response, and what were they supposed to be outlining? Please, be specific about this. I can't understand how this was set up so that they didn't have to have read Harry Potter to construct the outline of the essay.

[Voyager]

My understanding is that they had an essay, in proper form, given to them, and they had to extract the outline from the essay, right? It could have been about anything.

That sounds like a great assignment to me. It helps them critically read the essays they write, to see if they correspond to the right format.

I can understand the kid not wanting to read Harry Potter, but not wanting to read anything about Harry Potter goes too far. Do the parents cut out the parts of the paper that mention things offensive to Christians?

No wonder he's struggling in school - his parents have probably constricted his education.

[Monty]

They were supposed to look at an essay that was already written. The task was to determine the essay's outline. That's a mighty good skill to have as the student will be expected to, in the not so distant future, write coherent essays under time pressure. Having an outline works wonders for getting that done before the buzzer sounds.

[Rigamarole]

What I do worry about, though, is the parents actually being real fundie whackjobs, and twisting that into, "That man forced my son to read Harry Potter!" "That study class teaches sins!" and make big brouhaha about it.

You have nothing to fear here. Only witches make brou (haha!).

[bobkitty]

I'm afraid I have to agree with Astro here. You're coming across as extremely condescending, with phrases like

I really hate being in situations like this, because it makes me sad when young people demonstrate ignorance to the point of being unwilling to look into why they should shun a book/music genre/etc. Perhaps I should be more upset at the parents who are putting these influences on kids.
{snip}
I'd hate to have them feel that I am persecuting them for their beliefs, even if those beliefs perpetuate ignorance. So I tried to be as diplomatic and objective as possible about it, and basically told them that it is a good idea to try to have an open mind about things, even if you do not agree/approve. If anything, you'd have a better understanding of why you don't approve of it.
{snip}
especially since the student in question refused to go into any detail on why he didn't want to do the assignment.
{snip}
perhaps he has crazy fundie parents,

Let me share something with you that perhaps you haven't picked up yet: you are always going to come across people with views different from your own, *especially* if you are working with kids. It is NOT your place as a teacher to question these beliefs, expect them to explain themselves, or overtly/covertly tell them they need to have a more open mind. Certainly that last one, because one may point out that you are being very closed-minded regarding this child and his beliefs, which he really didn't have to share with you- he sees you once a week for 90 minutes, and it's none of your business why he hates Harry Potter, or why he refuses to do an assignment even one-step-removed related to the books.

Funny how we support kids who refuse to dissect animals based on personal convictions, but when someone refuses to read a book all of a sudden they're crazy fundie offspring.


Also this

The problem is there simply isn't any time- the class is exactly 90 minutes long and doesn't really allow for last-minute revisions to adapt to the tastes of each individual student.

is no excuse. As a teacher, you should be familiar with the material you're teaching. This comment makes it sound like you come in, flip the book open, and give assignments regardless of content, which makes it sound like you're the type of teacher who doesn't put any effort into their classes, but rather flies by the seat of their pants. While that's nice, perhaps, in a college-level lecture setting, it's not so nice for 8th graders. I'd suggest learning all your teaching materials backwards and forwards before assigning them, so you can avoid this sort of thing in the future.

Finally, I would like to slightly correct your former manager's comment, from

Don't allow my own prejudices to get in the way of learning.

to "Don't allow my own prejudices to get in the way of teaching." As a displaced Yankee in the heart of the Bible Belt, I have most certainly had to meet my students half way- their backgrounds are entirely different from my own. Neither is *right*, they just *are*, and it's not right of me to take advantage of my role as teacher to try to change them.

[Northern Piper]

Good Lord! You actually have the stones to come off as the aggrieved party in this mess!

Assuming this is not a college class, with all due respect I think it was pretty clueless of you, as a teacher, to assign any kind of a reading analysis that had anything to do with Harry Potter, even once removed in an essay question about Harry Potter. I'm as far from a fundie as you an get and still be in the known universe, but you, of all people, especially as an SDMB member should know that introducing anything to do with Harry Potter is like playing Whack-a-Mole with fundie hot buttons, and now because you wanted to be cute you embarrassed the hell out of an innocent kid who's caught between his parents and you.

There is literature other than Harry Potter out there that would have served the same purpose re interpretation without being polarizing.

You knew better. Shame on you.So the parents of one child who objects to this material hve the right to change the curriculum for all of the children in the course? Literature will always offend someone. I can see the need for alternatives in case parents object, but you can't go the route of automtatically deleting something based on one objection.

[Caridwen]

Why assume his objection has anything to do with his beliefs unless he specifically stated this? Maybe take him aside and ask him if it's something his parents object to in a discrete way. Or call his parents and ask?

I know adults read HP, myself included but I have a nephew who wouldn't touch HP with a ten foot pole because he considers it a kids book. Apparently none of the cool kids where goes to school like HP. Who can figure out kids.

Let me share something with you that perhaps you haven't picked up yet: you are always going to come across people with views different from your own, *especially* if you are working with kids. It is NOT your place as a teacher to question these beliefs, expect them to explain themselves, or overtly/covertly tell them they need to have a more open mind. Certainly that last one, because one may point out that you are being very closed-minded regarding this child and his beliefs, which he really didn't have to share with you- he sees you once a week for 90 minutes, and it's none of your business why he hates Harry Potter, or why he refuses to do an assignment even one-step-removed related to the books.

I totally disagree with this one. If a teacher has to tip toe through every subject trying to figure out whether or not something is going to offend someone like this case, you'd go nuts. How is he questioning someones beliefs?

Funny how we support kids who refuse to dissect animals based on personal convictions, but when someone refuses to read a book all of a sudden they're crazy fundie offspring.

In the case of dissection, in most schools a student has to let the teacher know before hand that they object and they are given an alternate assignment like a computer generated dissection.

Maybe this kid or the parents should have let the school or instructor know that they're offended by HP. This just seems so ludicrous to me that I can't even believe it's being discussed.

[astro]

So the parents of one child who objects to this material have the right to change the curriculum for all of the children in the course? Literature will always offend someone. I can see the need for alternatives in case parents object, but you can't go the route of automatically deleting something based on one objection.

Quite so, and if it was some out of left field objection I'd be a lot more sympathetic to Incubus' frustration, but it's part of the current cultural landscape of the US that a healthy cohort of conservative Christians view the Harry Potter series as glorifying and making magic look attractive, which in fact it does. The "magic" in Harry Potter is simply crypto-witchcraft in their opinion, and they object to it. These are the facts on the ground.

As a foxhole atheist I find this drama kind of amusing, but if I was a secondary school teacher I would not encourage a literature discussion where Harry Potter was directly or tangentially an object for analysis. It's pointlessly polarizing, and puts kids in the middle of a cultural conflict they have no business being in.

For a teacher to be introducing Harry Potter, directly or tangentially, as an object of literature analysis into a graded assignment is irresponsible and needlessly provocative.

[Wendell Wagner]

O.K., I think I understand this now. There are a couple of possibilities here. The first is that you can construct several sample essay questions and several sample essays which are replies to them before the class and then ask the students to pick one of them and outline the answer. That doesn't strike me as being that hard. For the second possibility, let me understand this right. You are teaching a private class on Saturdays, right? This has no relationship to any school, public or private, right? You're just privately teaching study skills which these students can use in school. You don't have to answer to anyone, right? If a student refuses to do an assignment you give, you can simply say, "I'm sorry, but you'll have to do this assigment or I can't teach you." If the student refuses, toss him out of the class and tell him to have his parents call you. When then do, tell them that you don't have time to make up special assignments just for him. Give them back their money if they want and tell them that there are other people doing Saturday tutoring like you do and they can go to them if they want to, but they aren't going to dictate the contents of your classes (which, again, aren't determined by anyone except you, right?). I understand your reluctance to embarrass this student, but you don't seem to have any choice here. You're not required to have everyone like you.

[astro]

Maybe this kid or the parents should have let the school or instructor know that they're offended by HP. This just seems so ludicrous to me that I can't even believe it's being discussed.

This is kind of the main point. For any teacher, or any literate individual who can read a newspaper or magazine to profess "Gosh! I didn't know Harry Potter was so controversial!" is disengenous and nonsensical. It is well within the realm of real world expectations that there will be at least one child (and possibly more) in a given class who lives in a conservative Christian home that considers Harry Potter literature an undesirable influence. It's not great sacrifice to choose other, less polarizing, objects for discussion and analysis.

[bobkitty]

Why assume his objection has anything to do with his beliefs unless he specifically stated this? Maybe take him aside and ask him if it's something his parents object to in a discrete way. Or call his parents and ask?

The OP stated

He started to explain why, but then I think he kind of realized that if he went too far into it, the other students might make fun of him for being the only kid in class who isn't supposed to read Harry Potter. Or he was afraid I would get mad at him.

We don't know why he refused, just that he did, and it had something to do with his beliefs. I merely pointed out that it doesn't matter why, and it's none of a teacher's business. Do we take JW kids aside and have them explain chapter and verse why they can't participate in certain classroom activities? Of course not- they state "I can't, it's against my beliefs" and the topic is done. It's CERTAINLY not the place of a less-than-part-time teacher (going by the OP, he only sees this child once a week for an hour and a half) to call a child's parents and ask for clarification on why little Johnny can't read something. I'd be royally ripped if someone did that to me- it smacks of "DEFEND YOURSELF, CRAZY FUNDIE!!" even if that's not the intention.


I totally disagree with this one. If a teacher has to tip toe through every subject trying to figure out whether or not something is going to offend someone like this case, you'd go nuts. How is he questioning someones beliefs?

You're misunderstanding my point. As a teacher, I certainly don't tiptoe through subjects- we had a rollicking debate on homosexuality last semester that I was the lone defender on. My point isn't that we need to be afraid to bring something controversial up- it's that we need to recognize that people are going to have different opinions, they're going to pass them on to their kids, and it's not our place to question or challenge those beliefs. It's the difference between the following hypothetical exchange:

Teacher: Today we're going to debate abortion.
Student: I don't feel comfortable discussing this topic.
Teacher: Can you share why?
Student: Because I personally believe it's wrong, and I don't want to get into an argument about it or push my ideas onto someone else.
Teacher: Okay, then would you like to observe or leave the room?

and this one..

Teacher: Today we're going to debate abortion.
Student: I don't feel comfortable discussing this topic.
Teacher: Can you share why?
Student: Because I personally believe it's wrong, and I don't want to get into an argument about it or push my ideas onto someone else.
Teacher: Why do you think it's wrong? Have you read the literature? The legislation? Where are your cites that it's wrong? Who told you it's wrong?

etc., etc. The teacher in the second hypothetical is overstepping their bounds (especially if we're talking about minors). A teacher teaches, they don't push an agenda. Each side is just as valid, even if we consider it unenlightened. This student had the right to refuse to read anything to do with Harry Potter; the OP did not have the right to ask him, directly or indirectly, to explain himself.

In the case of dissection, in most schools a student has to let the teacher know before hand that they object and they are given an alternate assignment like a computer generated dissection.

And in this case, the child expressed their objection as soon as they were made aware of the assignment, yet not only was he not given an alternate assignment (whatever the OP's reason for that), but he gets accused of having crazed fundie parents. Where's the respect here?

[Caridwen]

I don't see where the OP was challenging the students beliefs.

This is kind of the main point. For any teacher, or any literate individual who can read a newspaper or magazine to profess "Gosh! I didn't know Harry Potter was so controversial!" is disengenous and nonsensical.

I'm a literate, educated person and I think I've read a magazine in my lifetime and no, I actually didn't know it was all that controversial. Granted, I'm not a teacher and don't have a kid that age so I might not be up on any HP drama. Come on, he was asked to write an outline. The subject matter was sort of beside the point.

It is well within the realm of real world expectations that there will be at least one child (and possibly more) in a given class who lives in a conservative Christian home that considers Harry Potter literature an undesirable influence. It's not great sacrifice to choose other, less polarizing, objects for discussion and analysis.

You might be, and are probably right. I can't say that it doesn't make me sad and a little worried about what kind of education children are getting when even a children's novel causes this much controversy. No one is asking the kid to read the novel or learn a secret handshake or anything, just write an outline.

I'm wondering why this kid is in a study skills class. Does it have to do with beliefs? I know several people stated that but I don't get that 100% from the OP. Or does he just not want to do it?

[mhendo]

Let me share something with you that perhaps you haven't picked up yet: you are always going to come across people with views different from your own, *especially* if you are working with kids. It is NOT your place as a teacher to question these beliefs, expect them to explain themselves, or overtly/covertly tell them they need to have a more open mind. Certainly that last one, because one may point out that you are being very closed-minded regarding this child and his beliefs, which he really didn't have to share with you- he sees you once a week for 90 minutes, and it's none of your business why he hates Harry Potter, or why he refuses to do an assignment even one-step-removed related to the books.

Funny how we support kids who refuse to dissect animals based on personal convictions, but when someone refuses to read a book all of a sudden they're crazy fundie offspring.What a load of horse pish.

Firstly, reading a book is quite different from cutting up an animal. Second, we all sometimes read things we don't agree with. Hell, i often intentionally track down books that i know i won't agree with simply to find out what they say.

It does children no service at all to shelter them from reading controversial material. By all means, encourage them to criticize the material, and to express their difference of opinion, but when teachers cave in to a prejudice against knowledge itself, they abrogate their responsibilities as teachers.

[scotandrsn]

Give them back their money if they want and tell them that there are other people doing Saturday tutoring like you do and they can go to them if they want to, but they aren't going to dictate the contents of your classes (which, again, aren't determined by anyone except you, right?). I understand your reluctance to embarrass this student, but you don't seem to have any choice here. You're not required to have everyone like you.

Which part of "I didn't choose the material" and "I'll make it a point to talk to my managers" (post #10) isn't clear?

[astro]

What a load of horse pish.

Firstly, reading a book is quite different from cutting up an animal. Second, we all sometimes read things we don't agree with. Hell, i often intentionally track down books that i know i won't agree with simply to find out what they say.

It does children no service at all to shelter them from reading controversial material. By all means, encourage them to criticize the material, and to express their difference of opinion, but when teachers cave in to a prejudice against knowledge itself, they abrogate their responsibilities as teachers.

There's tons of "controversial material" that middle and high school students are not challenged with, because to engage in these debates at a secondary school level would yield nothing but an angry scrum with the parents. Once kids are in college or on their own all bets are off, but while they are public school some degree of practical circumspection needs to be observed.

[Sunrazor]

I disagree completely with astro. If you, and all teachers like you, shun Harry Potter today, it'll be "Catcher in the Rye" next week and "Tom Sawyer" the week after that and pretty soon you'll be down to two pieces of literature, one of which a group of ignorant people in America takes to be the literal word of their god.

You were absolutely right to press the kid on why. I'll leave it up to you to decide how far to press, assuming your training and experience give you control of the situation. But press him, because there are consequences to airing one's beliefs -- primary among them is that people will disagree. Again, your experience and training are key to making this a good lesson and not a bad one.

It's perfectly understandable that the kid caught you by surprise. We're never prepared for these one-to-one confrontations, and our initial impulse (despite training to the contrary) is to simply escape alive. But if you still can, take the kid aside, explain to him exactly what you explained in your original post. If it's a take-home assignment, call Mom or Dad, explain the situation, thus offering them an opportunity to influence Junior's thinking. In the end, you'll be seen as sensitive and caring, the fundies will be allowed to air their beliefs (thus exposing their ridiculous conclusions) and the kid will learn how to do an outline of somebody else's essay.

Of course, the whole thing could blow up in your face and you'd be burned at the stake as a godless witch. It's your call.

[Wendell Wagner]

O.K., I missed that post. (Was it really necessary to insult me because of that?) If the material is chosen by someone else, Incubus should go to the people who run this tutoring service and ask them what they want him to do in a situation like this. And he should do it, whatever they ask him to do. Toss the kid out if they say so. Do extra options for the class if they say so. They run the class and they are the ones that have to deal with the parents if the parents object to the way the class is run. If Incubus doesn't make up the policy for the class, he shouldn't have to defend that policy to the parents. The people who run the course should be the only ones who have to talk to the parents to defend policies that they made up, not Incubus. If Incubus doesn't like the policies that he's working under, he should quit.

[scotandrsn]

Good Lord! You actually have the stones to come off as the aggrieved party in this mess!

Assuming this is not a college class, with all due respect I think it was pretty clueless of you, as a teacher, to assign any kind of a reading analysis that had anything to do with Harry Potter, even once removed in an essay question about Harry Potter. I'm as far from a fundie as you an get and still be in the known universe, but you, of all people, especially as an SDMB member should know that introducing anything to do with Harry Potter is like playing Whack-a-Mole with fundie hot buttons, and now because you wanted to be cute you embarrassed the hell out of an innocent kid who's caught between his parents and you.

There is literature other than Harry Potter out there that would have served the same purpose re interpretation without being polarizing.

You knew better. Shame on you.

Except that we don't know that it's a fundie issue here, even though it might be.

Maybe his parents bought him every Harry Potter book at the store, but the discussion of magic freaked him out.

Maybe he loves Harry Potter, but has an older sibling who taunts him mercilessly all the time, and about that in particular, and rifles through his school stuff seeking ammunition.

Maybe Harry Potter is considered horrifically uncool at his school, and his classmates will never let him live it down if they were ever to see that essay in his possession.

In the absence of specific knowledge, any of these scenarios are possible.

[astro]

Except that we don't know that it's a fundie issue here, even though it might be.

Maybe his parents bought him every Harry Potter book at the store, but the discussion of magic freaked him out.

Maybe he loves Harry Potter, but has an older sibling who taunts him mercilessly all the time, and about that in particular, and rifles through his school stuff seeking ammunition.

Maybe Harry Potter is considered horrifically uncool at his school, and his classmates will never let him live it down if they were ever to see that essay in his possession.

In the absence of specific knowledge, any of these scenarios are possible.

Ummm... yeah. Possible but not probable. 99.99% of Harry Potter tabooism is based on religious objections. It would be fun though to tell the teacher you refuse to do an essay because the author just isn't up to the literary standard you require for serious analysis.

[Capt. Ridley's Shooting Party]

It is NOT your place as a teacher to question these beliefs, expect them to explain themselves, or overtly/covertly tell them they need to have a more open mind.


Then what is the role of a teacher, then?

[Marley23]

The whole business annoys me.

"The six [HP] books have collectively sold more than 300 million copies" according to Wikipedia. It's way mainstream literature.
'Mainstream' doesn't begin to cover it; it's one of the biggest across-the-board hits in the history of literature. And it became a super-popular series of movies, too. Which is exactly why it's in books like the one Incubus is using.

I didn't know that controversial literature wasn't taught in high school, either. I thought I read a lot of allegedly controversial books in those years. I'm surprised that people here are suggesting that teachers shouldn't challenge students and that students should be taught to avoid controversial material.

[Wendell Wagner]

Dominic Mulligan writes:

> Then what is the role of a teacher, then?

While it may be a teacher's job in general to get students to question their beliefs, that doesn't seem to apply to this particular job. Incubus has been hired to teach a group of three children once a week about study skills. That's all he's been hired to do. These children have other teachers that they see on the weekdays. Let them teach the students to question their beliefs. Incubus should either (depending on the tutoring company's policies) (1) give the students enough options so that each student can choose a non-offensive project or (2) tell the students that they can do the work assigned or get out of the class.

[bobkitty]

I'm surprised that people here are suggesting that teachers shouldn't challenge students and that students should be taught to avoid controversial material.

I honestly don't see where anyone is saying that. I think people are saying (at least, I know I am) that, when one is considering the fact that one's students are minors, that they may have been raised with beliefs that go against what we ourselves belief, even ones that we may find "ignorant" or "uneducated" or "stupid" and that it is not our job as teachers to then single out those children and insist they give a treatise on why they believe the way they do. They may not know why- they may just fall back on "it's what I was taught." And- FOR MINORS- that's a quite acceptable answer. Teachers do not have the right to go about and say "TELL ME WHY YOU BELIEVE THIS, BECAUSE I THINK YOU'RE AN IDIOT."

The kid in the OP is 12, possibly 13 years old. He's spending his Saturdays in a study skills class. We can certainly infer several things about him, but the most important is that he may not want to share with the class why he believes the way he does, and it's his right to do so.

My objection is to the tone of the OP, because I find it condescending. What gives us the right to say that Harry Potter is great literature that we should be outlining essays about, and that those who object to it are crazed fundies? We're no better in that situation than the supposed crazed fundies running around yelling about godless heathens.


Then what is the role of a teacher, then?

A teacher provides access to materials within and without the scope of what an individual is exposed to outside of the school setting, assists in the absorption of the materials, and allows space for polite, civil discourse on the materials. They also prepare kids to function in society- teaching social skills, basic functions like math and reading, and working within guidelines of time and expectations. They are not a parent- it is not their job to decide what a kid should/shouldn't believe.

Look, how many arguments have we had on this board about people who want to ban books? What does it always come down to- "I don't care what they want to do with their kid, as long as mine is able to access the information." So here we have parents who are doing just that (one may assume): they have decided for themselves what they don't want their kid reading, and they have passed that down to the kid. They're not picketing the tutoring center, they're not up in front of the school board. They've done exactly as countless members here on the board have asked, and in return they get called all sorts of hateful names. You can't have it both ways, folks.

[Marley23]

I honestly don't see where anyone is saying that.
In some of your and astro's posts, I saw a surprising desire to avoid anything controversial in reading material
Teachers do not have the right to go about and say "TELL ME WHY YOU BELIEVE THIS, BECAUSE I THINK YOU'RE AN IDIOT."
And where do you get that from what Incubus has said? "Ignorant" would seem to be an accurate word in this case.
We can certainly infer several things about him, but the most important is that he may not want to share with the class why he believes the way he does, and it's his right to do so.
Why is it his right? If he has an objection, fine, and he shouldn't be ridiculed- but we don't know for sure what his problem is. I don't think the kid is entitled to opt out of assignments without saying why he won't do them. Don't you need some kind of a reason for not doing an assignment?
What gives us the right to say that Harry Potter is great literature that we should be outlining essays about, and that those who object to it are crazed fundies?
This is nonsense. The book is being used as an example in a classroom assignment. That's not an endorsement as "great literature" or anything remotely of the kind. It's a book, it's out there, kids are likely to recognize it. That's why it's there. We do know that a minority of people have a problem with the book because they say it endorses witchcraft and encourages kids to turn to evil. An examination of the book by anybody who doesn't already believe that will turn up scant evidence of Satanism.
We're no better in that situation than the supposed crazed fundies running around yelling about godless heathens.
How so?

[Caridwen]

My objection is to the tone of the OP, because I find it condescending. What gives us the right to say that Harry Potter is great literature that we should be outlining essays about, and that those who object to it are crazed fundies? We're no better in that situation than the supposed crazed fundies running around yelling about godless heathens.

Condesending? I'm not convinced it was even about fundies.

Where does the great literature bit come in? You can make an outline about pretty much anything. It could be an article from BH&G about how to pick weeds and you could make an outline out of it. My guess is that whomever put the story in the manual did so because they probably thought because it's a kids story=kid doing the outline they'd be a little more interested in the assignment.

When is it going to be the parents job to actually start raising their kids and teaching them a little critical thinking? Why isn't it up to the parent to explain to their kids that we believe X is bad and sometimes in the big bad world there are going to be people that don't believe the same things we do.

Where does this stuff end? People have a right to believe what they want. What if you were teaching a history class and the kids parents were white supremicists. Do you not teach about WWII and concentration camps and not ask them to read The Diary of Ann Frank? I know that's a little exaggerated, but I think this HP thing is a little silly.

[Odesio]

When I was a freshman in high school about half a semsester (8-9 weeks) was spent on Greek mythology. One student didn't participate and for all those weeks she sat outside the classroom and worked on alternative assignments. Honestly, that seemed rather silly to me at the time and I haven't changed my mind, but public schools have to accomodate students who may have widely varying backgrounds.

I don't know if the class in the OP is part of the public schools but if they're expecting a lot of different kids to enter the program they should make sure they have some alternatives just in case the material is objectionable to some. Sure, I suppose people could just say "Forget it, he can do it or fail", but if we're trying to make sure he knows how to make an outline what good is this attitude to anybody?

Marc

[Incubus]

Thank you for all the feedback. Tomorrow I will have a discussion with my manager.

:)

[Sarahfeena]

Dominic Mulligan writes:

> Then what is the role of a teacher, then?

While it may be a teacher's job in general to get students to question their beliefs, that doesn't seem to apply to this particular job. Incubus has been hired to teach a group of three children once a week about study skills. That's all he's been hired to do. These children have other teachers that they see on the weekdays. Let them teach the students to question their beliefs. Incubus should either (depending on the tutoring company's policies) (1) give the students enough options so that each student can choose a non-offensive project or (2) tell the students that they can do the work assigned or get out of the class. I think this post is what it all boils down to. This is not a literature class, and the actual topic of the essay is completely irrelevant to what is being taught. It could have been ANY essay. Actually, I'm not sure at the 8th-grade level, it is even appropriate for teachers to take on a role of getting children to question beliefs...this seems more like HS-level education to me. I don't think it seems appropriate to worry about what a parent chooses to let an 8th-grader read. Many, many parents restrict in one way or another what a kid that age has access to, and just because the teacher doesn't really get what the objection is, it doesn't mean there isn't a valid one. If there is absolutely no way to give the child an alternative assignment, then I agree with an earlier poster who suggested that it be suggested to the kid that he find a different class.

[susan]

I once taught in a private school where I wasn't allowed to teach Romeo and Juliet. Not because they killed themselves, but because they disobeyed their parents. As one parent tartly announced after I had the 12th graders read Kate Chopin's The Awakening (standard local public school fare), "If it was offensive to the people on 1899, it's offensive to us." This is, of course, the prerogative of a private school.

In a public school setting, or in a private school with different values, I think the burden is on the student/family to request moral/spiritual/political accommodation if necessary, not on the school or instructor to teach material so bland that nobody objects. It can't be done. Someone will always object to something. I wish my undergraduates had more formal practice listening to to others and, if necessary, constructing logical, clear objections to each other's beliefs.

[Caridwen]

I once taught in a private school where I wasn't allowed to teach Romeo and Juliet. Not because they killed themselves, but because they disobeyed their parents. As one parent tartly announced after I had the 12th graders read Kate Chopin's The Awakening (standard local public school fare), "If it was offensive to the people on 1899, it's offensive to us." This is, of course, the prerogative of a private school.

Holy crap.

My niece told me that over half the kids in her class have doctors notes to get out of gym class. Apparently kids aren't allowed to move around any more and they aren't allowed to think on their own. It's like we're raising a generation of spores instead of kids.

Are other countries as batshit crazy as we are?

[pbbth]

When I was in high school part of the required reading in our literature class was the book of ruth. Everyone in the class did it without question, even the muslim and hindu kids in the class, because it was approached as a piece of literature and not a religious way. We also read the story of gilgamesh and greek myths about the gods and other such things without complaint. If it isn't being approached as something that is a matter of faith the kid should have to do the assignment or at least read the essay and then determine that, "yep, this goes against my beliefs and I would like an alternate assignment please."

If he has a valid reason for not wanting to do the assignment that is fine, but to just accept him saying "Im not going to do this and I am not going to tell you why" isn't doing him any favors. He will always have to give into superiors and follow instructions and his boss at work isn't going to care that this memo addresses something he disagrees with, he will have to do it or be fired. His college biology professors aren't going to care that he doesn't agree with the theory of evolution, he will still have to study it or fail.

[DanBlather]

Are other countries as batshit crazy as we are?Only the other ones ruled by religious fanatics.