How do I go about starting my own religion?

[PaulEdwardWagemann]

And how would that affect my taxes?

[WhyNot]

Assuming this is a real question, and not an attempt to start a snarkfest...

You start your own religion by talking to people about it and convincing them you have some insight or process they need.

You start you own church by incorporation, forming a board of directors, by-laws, etc. If you will be soliciting or accepting charitable donations, you have to file a separate charitable registration with the Secretary of State (not sure if this is nationwide or only in some states.) Then you decide if you want to pursue 501(c)3 status with the government, giving you the tax benefits of being a not-for-profit. If you choose this, there are laws you have to follow, including things you can or cannot say at your pulpit about politics (you may not officially endorse a particular politician, for example.) It is strongly recommended that you get a good lawyer to help with this process - the State will check to make sure the forms are filled out properly, but they won't check to make sure that what you've proposed is legal. If they approve it and it wasn't legal, it won't stand up in court.

Your own personal taxes are not largely affected, unless you donate all your personal money to your church - in which case some or all of that can be a tax write-off (minus the value of any goods or services you recieve in exchange, total amount tax-deductible limited by law). If you're a 501(c)3, then, like any not-for-profit, your church's earnings much be carefully accounted for and any surplus must be redonated or invested in specific ways. If you're a 501(c)3, then you are specifically prohibited - as are any other "members, Elders, officers, or the members, Elders, or officers of the Church, or any other private person" - from getting rich on your church, except that the church is allowed to compensate actual work. You can't skim from the collection plate, but your Ministers may accept a salary for ministerial work, which I believe must be published information.

In actual fact, the process itself tears many would-be-churches apart, including the last one I was a leader in. It's often easier to meet unofficially, but then you don't get the same legal protections a church or churchgoer may (like not getting your kids taken away because of your "weird" ways, or being able to refuse vaccinations or military service, or allowed to wear your religious symbols at school.)

Google church incorporation for more detailed information. This is a good place to start. (http://www.tylwythteg.com/association/assoc6.html)

[Hari Seldon]

You could read the story of L. Ron Hubbard, the founder of Scientology. He was a moderately successful science fiction writer in the late 40s. There are several witnesses to the fact that he said that if you really wanted to make it big you should start a religion.

Be that as it may, he created a pseudo-science called dianetics. As I recall (I read about it when it was published in around 1950, so that is going back a ways), it involved going back with hypnosis to the earliest memories, which eventually meant into the womb, and "clearing" the memories of various traumas, of which birth must have been the most traumatic. Hubbard convinced John Campbell, the editor of Astounding (now Analog) Science Fiction and the magazine published an article (or maybe a series of articles) on dianetics. They raised some interest and then, to my knowledge, the subject died. Until it was reborn as Scientology. I don't know anything about the transition from a publication in a Sci-fi magazine to a religion, but I'm sure it has been written about.

Hubbard grew very rich. Later in life, he went back to writing sci-fi. I never read any of his later stuff, but my brother told me it was pretty good.

This post has been totally factual, but it is almost certain to start a flame war and the thread will have to be closed. Sorry about that.

[PaulEdwardWagemann]

Actually I want to start my own religion--like I said, not my own church...I dont want no churches in my religion. In fact, I've basically already come up with my own religion only I dont have a name for it, and it isnt recognized by anyone (other than myself). But my problem is that there are certain things about my religion that are against the law...so I need to get my relgion recognized somehow so that I can practice it without breaking the law.

[spingears]

You could read the story of L. Ron Hubbard, the founder of Scientology. This post has been totally factual, but it is almost certain to start a flame war and the thread will have to be closed. Sorry about that.RIGHT!
Those are the facts as I too recall.

As far as tax deductions are concerned you have to jump through the satisfactory completion of the various required formalities and forms required by the IRS.

[spingears]

But my problem is that there are certain things about my religion that are against the law...so I need to get my relgion recognized somehow so that I can practice it without breaking the law.Now you have a real problem. First to get a sizeable number of followers of like mind to convince the government that you have a real religion that requires breaking the law in order to observe or practice its rites. Then the hoops and hurdles to get IRS approval of you/and or your religion as a NPO. :dubious:

Rots of ruck.

[WhyNot]

Actually I want to start my own religion--like I said, not my own church...I dont want no churches in my religion. In fact, I've basically already come up with my own religion only I dont have a name for it, and it isnt recognized by anyone (other than myself). But my problem is that there are certain things about my religion that are against the law...so I need to get my relgion recognized somehow so that I can practice it without breaking the law.
Then you'll absolutely have to form a church. You may not call it a "church" - you may decide to call it a "house of worship" a "meeting circle" or "Cheeseheads Anonymous", but you'll definitely have to go through the legal hoops of incorporation and legal church status. Which will be hard as hell to do if you're already promoting illegal activities. I don't know of anyone who's managed to do it (or even attempted to do it) for an activity that's already illegal. Things like peyote or other substance-utilizing ritual relgions are able to get away with it because they have historical use since before such things were illegal. Things like fundamentalist Mormon-offshoot polygamists haven't even been able to do it, and they have a lot of money and power in their hands, I hear.

If your question is about legal stuff, you need to concern yourself with legal procedure - that's "seeking church status", not just making up a new religion.

Despite what people may think, calling your activities "religious" is not a get-out-of-jail free card.

[scm1001]

Despite what people may think, calling your activities "religious" is not a get-out-of-jail free card.

However, on the bright side, prison is a nice quite place to study your religion, with lots of potential converts :)

[Bonton63]

Actually I want to start my own religion--like I said, not my own church...I dont want no churches in my religion. In fact, I've basically already come up with my own religion only I dont have a name for it, and it isnt recognized by anyone (other than myself). But my problem is that there are certain things about my religion that are against the law...so I need to get my relgion recognized somehow so that I can practice it without breaking the law.

What kind of practices? I'm curious. Why do you feel that they are crucial to your belief system/structure?
Or do you mind telling?

[Hypno-Toad]

It sounds like you need to be prepared for some jail time for yourself or your fellow worshippers. It seems like getting things changed from illegal status only comes from long, long struggles with police and courts.

[AHunter3]

Actually I want to start my own religion--like I said, not my own church...I dont want no churches in my religion. In fact, I've basically already come up with my own religion only I dont have a name for it, and it isnt recognized by anyone (other than myself). But my problem is that there are certain things about my religion that are against the law...so I need to get my relgion recognized somehow so that I can practice it without breaking the law.


Are you "apostolic"? In other words, are you, aside from as a means to the end of getting The Man to let you engage in the activities condoned by your religion but condemned by the state, interested in "spreading the word"?

I, too, have my own. I also have some rather cynical things to say about the whole "bring the word unto the people" thing that you need to think about before you go there, if going there is on your agenda.

(not that you asked or anything)

[PaulEdwardWagemann]

RIGHT!
Those are the facts as I too recall.

As far as tax deductions are concerned you have to jump through the satisfactory completion of the various required formalities and forms required by the IRS.

But my religion doesn't recognize the IRS as a legit organization.

[Bosda Di'Chi of Tricor]

But my religion doesn't recognize the IRS as a legit organization.

Ah.

Hail Eris! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discordianism)

[Excalibre]

But my religion doesn't recognize the IRS as a legit organization.
Uh-huh . . .

[Lemur866]

But my religion doesn't recognize the IRS as a legit organization.
Hey, that's no problem. You don't have to believe the IRS is legitimate. You just have to pay your taxes on schedule, and if you don't you go to jail. You can put your tax check in an envelope with "Taxation is slavery! Unconstitutional theft of property! Repeal the 16th Amendment! IRS==ZOG!" stamped all over it. Like a pimp, the IRS doesn't care as long as you get your ass back on the street and get them their money, bitch. Claim that the IRS is illegitimate all you like, this is a free country--as long as the IRS still gets their check.

See, your religion can claim that the laws and rules and taxes and all the stuff The Man tries to shove down our throats is bullshit, man. And that's fine...but it still doesn't give you a get out of jail free card. You still can't have sex with 12 year old girls, or smoke crack, or violate building and zoning codes, or drive without a driver's license, or not pay your taxes just because your religion says you can.

[Antinor01]

But my religion doesn't recognize the IRS as a legit organization.


Umm, why would you care about the effect on your taxes if you don't believe the IRS is legit?

Better question, why in hell am I responding to this?

[PaulEdwardWagemann]

Hey, that's no problem. You don't have to believe the IRS is legitimate. You just have to pay your taxes on schedule, and if you don't you go to jail. You can put your tax check in an envelope with "Taxation is slavery! Unconstitutional theft of property! Repeal the 16th Amendment! IRS==ZOG!" stamped all over it. Like a pimp, the IRS doesn't care as long as you get your ass back on the street and get them their money, bitch. Claim that the IRS is illegitimate all you like, this is a free country--as long as the IRS still gets their check.

See, your religion can claim that the laws and rules and taxes and all the stuff The Man tries to shove down our throats is bullshit, man. And that's fine...but it still doesn't give you a get out of jail free card. You still can't have sex with 12 year old girls, or smoke crack, or violate building and zoning codes, or drive without a driver's license, or not pay your taxes just because your religion says you can.

Actually my religion doesnt think money is legit either. I mean really, what is money? YOu see some digits on a paycheck...a ball player signs a contract fro 6 million dollars a year...a push of a button on your computer electronically adds or delets money into an account...Is any of this real? What if I hacked into a banks computer and changed all of the accounts, or what if I steal a credit card and charge a bunch of stuff on it? Who pays for that? Money is a ghost. It doesnt really exist. THe government spends it eventhough they dont have it--How can you spend something you dont have? How can you use something that doesnt yet exist? Large companies promise their workers retirement money, then they say, ooops, we dont got it, and its gone. Did it ever really exist? The workers thought it did. They made life decisions based on its existence. Then it wasnt there. :smack:

[Excalibre]

Actually my religion doesnt think money is legit either. I mean really, what is money? YOu see some digits on a paycheck...a ball player signs a contract fro 6 million dollars a year...a push of a button on your computer electronically adds or delets money into an account...Is any of this real? What if I hacked into a banks computer and changed all of the accounts, or what if I steal a credit card and charge a bunch of stuff on it? Who pays for that? Money is a ghost. It doesnt really exist. THe government spends it eventhough they dont have it--How can you spend something you dont have? How can you use something that doesnt yet exist? Large companies promise their workers retirement money, then they say, ooops, we dont got it, and its gone. Did it ever really exist? The workers thought it did. They made life decisions based on its existence. Then it wasnt there. :smack:
You built a religion out of not understanding basic economics?

[PaulEdwardWagemann]

You built a religion out of not understanding basic economics?
No, my religion is about not buying into the basic economics of our modern corporate consumer culture.

[HMS Irruncible]

You built a religion out of not understanding basic economics?
I know you have a compulsion to crap on people's GQ threads with snarky unrelated comments, but if you'd just stick to crapping on the linguistics threads, you'd be sticking with something that you sort of understand, and it would be that much easier for the rest of us to avoid you. Thanks in advance.

[drachillix]

But my religion doesn't recognize the IRS as a legit organization.

Ah but the government they fund that protects your rights to freedom of religion, they are ok?

If you are looking to religion and NPO status as a cover for being a tax protester don't bother. To be with it, its gotta be pretty big, and if its pretty big, the only way you are going to avoid an eventual audit is a repeat of the Branch Davidians in Waco, TX.

I have often wondered about the possibility of secular activity groups providing similar social structure and activity facilities as churches myself. Unfortunately as mentioned above, its alot of work.

[WhyNot]

Actually my religion doesnt think money is legit either. I mean really, what is money? YOu see some digits on a paycheck...a ball player signs a contract fro 6 million dollars a year...a push of a button on your computer electronically adds or delets money into an account...Is any of this real? What if I hacked into a banks computer and changed all of the accounts, or what if I steal a credit card and charge a bunch of stuff on it? Who pays for that? Money is a ghost. It doesnt really exist. THe government spends it eventhough they dont have it--How can you spend something you dont have? How can you use something that doesnt yet exist? Large companies promise their workers retirement money, then they say, ooops, we dont got it, and its gone. Did it ever really exist? The workers thought it did. They made life decisions based on its existence. Then it wasnt there. :smack:
Seriously? Money is a token, a chit, of how much you have contributed to the society as a whole. In exchange, you get a certain amount of stuff back from the rest of us.

If you've worked for one hour at a job making burgers and fries, we've all agreed that you've done $5.15 worth of contributing to society. Yes, $5.15 is arbitrary. We could just as well say "three-tenths of a sheep" or "10 oobleks". The number and unit don't matter, just that we've agreed that's what your labor is valued at. In exchange for that amount of work, you're entitled to $5.15 worth of stuff, be it food, rent, DVDs or cocaine. If you want more stuff, you have to do more work, and your paycheck is how we keep track of how much work you've contributed.

Loans and credit are you promising to contribute that amount of work to our community in the future and us giving you the goods or services up front. If you suck at keeping those promises, we won't give you stuff up front any more.

Hacking into banks is you cheating. You didn't and don't intend to do the work that your acount says you did. That's why you go to jail for it if you're caught. You've not played by the rules, and so you get a penalty.

Money itself is meaningless, of course. It's green pieces of fabric (not paper) with not-so-pretty designs on them. But they are the scorecard by which we determine how much stuff we give you, based on how much stuff you've given us. They're more convenient to fold up and put in your pocket than sheep and chickens or bars of gold.


Frankly, what you have sounds more like the sophomoric whinings of a poli.sci. major than a religion. Who are your deities? What are your teachings? What are your beliefs? How does one attain enlightenment? What's the meaning of life? What is your favorite color?

At least a few of these need to be addressed to consider oneself a religion.

[drachillix]

At least a few of these need to be addressed to consider oneself a religion.

Although religion is not a requirement of a NPO

[WhyNot]

Although religion is not a requirement of a NPO
No, but it's what the OP was asking about. It's in the title.

[PaulEdwardWagemann]

Seriously? Money is a token, a chit, of how much you have contributed to the society as a whole. In exchange, you get a certain amount of stuff back from the rest of us.

If you've worked for one hour at a job making burgers and fries, we've all agreed that you've done $5.15 worth of contributing to society. Yes, $5.15 is arbitrary. We could just as well say "three-tenths of a sheep" or "10 oobleks". The number and unit don't matter, just that we've agreed that's what your labor is valued at. In exchange for that amount of work, you're entitled to $5.15 worth of stuff, be it food, rent, DVDs or cocaine. If you want more stuff, you have to do more work, and your paycheck is how we keep track of how much work you've contributed.

Loans and credit are you promising to contribute that amount of work to our community in the future and us giving you the goods or services up front. If you suck at keeping those promises, we won't give you stuff up front any more.

Hacking into banks is you cheating. You didn't and don't intend to do the work that your acount says you did. That's why you go to jail for it if you're caught. You've not played by the rules, and so you get a penalty.

Money itself is meaningless, of course. It's green pieces of fabric (not paper) with not-so-pretty designs on them. But they are the scorecard by which we determine how much stuff we give you, based on how much stuff you've given us. They're more convenient to fold up and put in your pocket than sheep and chickens or bars of gold.


Frankly, what you have sounds more like the sophomoric whinings of a poli.sci. major than a religion. Who are your deities? What are your teachings? What are your beliefs? How does one attain enlightenment? What's the meaning of life? What is your favorite color?

At least a few of these need to be addressed to consider oneself a religion.

Not in my religion they don't.
You say loans and credit is your promise to contibute your amount to society in the future. But what if society changes, what if society doesnt keep ITS promises? Does that make your promise null and void? So if money is just broken promises, then how can it really exist?

And as far as playing by the rules--who's rules? We see politicans beign unethical and corrupt every day--sure some of them get caught, but most of them find loops holes, tax dodges, etc. If these are societies rules, then they need to be changed. One way to change them is to rebell against them.

Ah but the government they fund that protects your rights to freedom of religion, they are ok?


Do they really protect our rights to freedom of religion though? If I truly practised my religion--as others have pointed out--I'd be thrown in jail...And did they protect the native american's religion?

[xash]

I know you have a compulsion to crap on people's GQ threads with snarky unrelated comments, but if you'd just stick to crapping on the linguistics threads, you'd be sticking with something that you sort of understand, and it would be that much easier for the rest of us to avoid you. Thanks in advance.Brain Wreck, your comments are out of line for GQ.

Please leave the moderating to the mods. If you take exception to any post, please use the report post feature instead.

Thanks.

-xash
General Questions Moderator

[WhyNot]

Do they really protect our rights to freedom of religion though?
Because, so far, you don't have one. You have a couple of philosophies, which you are free to pursue limited only by the same laws that apply to us - you can choose to "live off the grid" and not pay your taxes. You might not like the results, but it's your choice. You are allowed to protest, lobby, propose legislation and run for office on a platform supporting your theories, and you have the freedom to tell other people and organize them in peaceful protest.

Trust me, sweetie, you are free. There are countries that block this site so their people don't read your words. There are countries where someone in a black coat would be knocking on your door to confiscate your bong and have you thrown into the deepest, darkest dungeon you could imagine, so you wouldn't poison other with your thoughts. You're free as a bird, my dear.
If I truly practised my religion--as others have pointed out--I'd be thrown in jail...And did they protect the native american's religion?
Yes, they have protected the recreationist Victorian-more laden debacle that passes for many N.A. religions today. Those that have chose to seek church status are allowed to pursue their faith. Some of them even have special dispensation to use some things that are illegal for the rest of us, but their use is only legal in a very specific religious setting. It's just as illegal for a member of the Native American church to posess or use peyote outside of a sweat as it is for you and I.

What they did a coupla hundred years ago, I won't comment on, other than to say I wouldn't support it happening today.

[Wendell Wagner]

PaulEdwardWagemann writes:

> And as far as playing by the rules--who's rules? We see politicans beign
> unethical and corrupt every day--sure some of them get caught, but most of
> them find loops holes, tax dodges, etc. If these are societies rules, then they
> need to be changed. One way to change them is to rebell against them.

Then get into politics and change the laws. No, you can't ignore laws because your religion disagrees with them. Sure you can start a religion that claims the present laws are wrong. (At the moment it's a religion with one adherent. And there's apparently no doctrine to this religion except "I want to ignore any laws that I disagree with.) But if you claim to a court "I can ignore any law I want to because my religion disagrees with it," your argument will be ignored by the court and you will be convicted of violating the laws that you ignored. Use political means to change the laws you disagree with. You can begin by convincing us of the correctness of your political views. Start a thread in Great Debates. There are many people here who would be happy to tear your arguments to threads.

[PaulEdwardWagemann]

PaulEdwardWagemann writes:

> And as far as playing by the rules--who's rules? We see politicans beign
> unethical and corrupt every day--sure some of them get caught, but most of
> them find loops holes, tax dodges, etc. If these are societies rules, then they
> need to be changed. One way to change them is to rebell against them.

Then get into politics and change the laws. No, you can't ignore laws because your religion disagrees with them. Sure you can start a religion that claims the present laws are wrong. (At the moment it's a religion with one adherent. And there's apparently no doctrine to this religion except "I want to ignore any laws that I disagree with.) But if you claim to a court "I can ignore any law I want to because my religion disagrees with it," your argument will be ignored by the court and you will be convicted of violating the laws that you ignored. Use political means to change the laws you disagree with. You can begin by convincing us of the correctness of your political views. Start a thread in Great Debates. There are many people here who would be happy to tear your arguments to threads.

Politics? Give me a break. i dotn want to tell anyone else how to live. I just want to practice my own religion.
And so what my religion only has one adherent? It's my personal religion, not a freakin high school homecoming contest. Why does the popularity of a religion make it any more or less valid?

[PaulEdwardWagemann]

Because, so far, you don't have one. You have a couple of philosophies, which you are free to pursue limited only by the same laws that apply to us - you can choose to "live off the grid" and not pay your taxes. You might not like the results, but it's your choice. You are allowed to protest, lobby, propose legislation and run for office on a platform supporting your theories, and you have the freedom to tell other people and organize them in peaceful protest.

Trust me, sweetie, you are free. There are countries that block this site so their people don't read your words. There are countries where someone in a black coat would be knocking on your door to confiscate your bong and have you thrown into the deepest, darkest dungeon you could imagine, so you wouldn't poison other with your thoughts. You're free as a bird, my dear.

Yes, they have protected the recreationist Victorian-more laden debacle that passes for many N.A. religions today. Those that have chose to seek church status are allowed to pursue their faith. Some of them even have special dispensation to use some things that are illegal for the rest of us, but their use is only legal in a very specific religious setting. It's just as illegal for a member of the Native American church to posess or use peyote outside of a sweat as it is for you and I.

What they did a coupla hundred years ago, I won't comment on, other than to say I wouldn't support it happening today.

I dont live in those other countries. I live in this one. THis is where my friends and family are. So I dont see any use in tryng to change other countires or comparing my country to another country becasue that doesnt do me any good. In this country, if I try to practice my religion I will be arrested and thrown in jail. That is NOT freedom. No matter how you slice it, Adolf.

[Antinor01]

From what I'm hearing, your religion doesn't believe in money or paying taxes. Fine, don't have any income and you won't owe taxes. How this will affect your standard of living, I couldn't begin to speculate.

[The Great Sun Jester]

So...do you believe in Godwin?

[Jayrot]

From what I'm hearing, your religion doesn't believe in money or paying taxes. Fine, don't have any income and you won't owe taxes. How this will affect your standard of living, I couldn't begin to speculate.
Exactly. In fact, if you're somehow able to survive mooching off your friends, you'll be actually ahead of the rest of us. See when you earn money, the taxes you pay on that income (in some small percentage) go towards social services and common societal benefits. For example, even though you don't pay taxes (since you don't earn or spend any money) you're still allowed to walk on the sidewalk that everyone elses taxes paid for. And when those sidewalks are repaired and renewed thanks to the rest of us, you're still allowed to walk on them. You're probably even able to ride the free downtown electric shuttle or even get a free meal at a local shelter. No need to prove that you've paid taxes for that.

So forget about all this religion stuff. The system is set up pretty well for a handful of people to leech off everyone else. I'm relatively OK with that. And at the same time, you can feel like you're putting one over on The Man.

[Lemur866]

In this country, if I try to practice my religion I will be arrested and thrown in jail. That is NOT freedom. No matter how you slice it, Adolf.

This is getting silly.

Of course you have the right to "practice your religion". What you don't have is the right to commit crimes just because "your religion" says you can. We don't have a law against practicing PaulEdwardWagemannism, we have a law against rape, a law against cannibalism, a law against jaywalking, a law against selling crack cocaine, a law against not paying your taxes.

Your claim that your religion exempts you from laws you disagree with is specious. No religion in the US is allowed to violate the laws they disagree with. You are free to violate the laws you disagree with and the rest of us are free to lock you up for marrying 12 year old girls.

Otherwise, anyone could make up a fake religion and literally get away with murder. See how that works?

[drachillix]

But what if society changes, what if society doesnt keep ITS promises? Does that make your promise null and void? So if money is just broken promises, then how can it really exist?

This is why currencies are backed by the federal government not independent businesses. It takes something a little more epic than a few broken promises to derail our entire economic system. There are also a multitude of checks and balances to help soften the blows of any broken promises that might occur like insurance, bankruptcy liquidation of assets to pay off creditors, etc.

Also money is just a simplified unit of trade, its alot easier to sell the skins from the bears you hunted for $X each and then take your money to the general store to figure out what your bear skin sales will get you. In theory you could cart your bear skins around offering to trade them for food, tools, ammo, whatever, but people might not want what you have to trade. Currency allows a common tool for facilitating any trade.

From the sounds of it, you would be pretty much fine of you wanted to move off to the middle of Montana somewhere buy a piece of land and live off of what you can harvest on it. You might end up paying a few taxes here and there but it will be a fairly moneyless existence.

[PaulEdwardWagemann]

This is getting silly.

Of course you have the right to "practice your religion". What you don't have is the right to commit crimes just because "your religion" says you can. We don't have a law against practicing PaulEdwardWagemannism, we have a law against rape, a law against cannibalism, a law against jaywalking, a law against selling crack cocaine, a law against not paying your taxes.

Your claim that your religion exempts you from laws you disagree with is specious. No religion in the US is allowed to violate the laws they disagree with. You are free to violate the laws you disagree with and the rest of us are free to lock you up for marrying 12 year old girls.

Otherwise, anyone could make up a fake religion and literally get away with murder. See how that works?
PaulEdwardWagemannism doesnt condone rape or cannibalims. My basic tenet is 'Dont screw anyone over and dont let anyone screw me over.' And my only other tenet is 'If someone is committing a crime against humanity, do what you can to stop them'. I dont think jay walking is a crime against humanity.

Exactly. In fact, if you're somehow able to survive mooching off your friends, you'll be actually ahead of the rest of us. See when you earn money, the taxes you pay on that income (in some small percentage) go towards social services and common societal benefits
I have no problem contributing toward things that will help society. But the majority of our taxes go to the military-industrial complex, and anohter fair chunk goes toward corruption, croonyism and politicans paychecks. Dont you think it is ridiculas to make someone pay into something they are religiously against? DO you think it is right that I should work hard 40 hours a week just so 20% of my earning can go toward taxes that pay for corruption and croonyism? Why would anyone in their right mind do that? Unless they were a slave and forced to?

[WhyNot]

Dont you think it is ridiculas to make someone pay into something they are religiously against?
(bolding mine)

You keepa using that word. I do not-a think eet means what you think eet means.

[Excalibre]

PaulEdwardWagemannism doesnt condone rape or cannibalims. My basic tenet is 'Dont screw anyone over and dont let anyone screw me over.' And my only other tenet is 'If someone is committing a crime against humanity, do what you can to stop them'. I dont think jay walking is a crime against humanity.
Um, what?


I have no problem contributing toward things that will help society. But the majority of our taxes go to the military-industrial complex, and anohter fair chunk goes toward corruption, croonyism and politicans paychecks. Dont you think it is ridiculas to make someone pay into something they are religiously against?
Not at all. You're benefiting from the system supported by tax money constantly, in countless ways that you probably never even think about. Why should you be allowed to conveniently invent a "religion" that excuses you from contributing but permits you to enjoy the benefits of our society? If you really think our government and society are so immoral that you cannot contribute to them, you really ought to consider leaving. I'm not fond of the "love it or leave it" argument, but in this case, since you obviously consider the system to be so broken that it can't be fixed through political participation, isn't that what you're obligated to do? Slothfully accepting the benefits of the system without paying into it is pretty tough to defend as a moral stance.

Furthermore, I think it's even less problematic to make someone pay into something they're opposed to out of non-religious principles, which would be the case in your situation. Nothing about what you've said here relates to actual religious beliefs. The rest of us are certainly not obligated to respect a religion that doesn't actually exist.


DO you think it is right that I should work hard 40 hours a week just so 20% of my earning can go toward taxes that pay for corruption and croonyism?
I think that you haven't made a terribly compelling argument yet. So, yes, I think it's right that some portion of your income be set aside for the workings of the government and the good of society.


Why would anyone in their right mind do that? Unless they were a slave and forced to?
Because the rest of us have the moral sense that you apparently lack.

[Alan Smithee]

Dont you think it is ridiculas to make someone pay into something they are religiously against? DO you think it is right that I should work hard 40 hours a week just so 20% of my earning can go toward taxes that pay for corruption and croonyism? Why would anyone in their right mind do that? Unless they were a slave and forced to?
But no body is making you do any of that. I mean, sure, if you want to eat at McDonald's and buy clothes at Wal-Mart, you need money, and if you make or spend money, you have to pay taxes, but it's your choice. Since you don't believe in money, you are perfectly free to live without it. It's not that hard, either. There is plenty of free food in our society (at shelters and soup kitchens, in dumpsters, lots of other places if you know where to look and who to ask), a fair amount of free shelter, and plenty of land where you can hide out, build your own shelter, and live off what you can grow, find, or kill.

If you're willing to play society's game just temporarily, you can buy the land and supplies you need to live self-sufficently fairly easily and cheaply, be totally legit and law-abiding, and even have a decent standard of living (if you have or develop the right skills).

There are plenty of people and even communities in this country who live without money and without paying taxes. Nothing and no one is stopping you from joining them. If you altruistically want to benefit society as well, you can write, volunteer, or give blood. You can even work and earn below a certain amount, and not have to pay income tax at all (though you still have to pay the sales tax if you want to buy a hamburger at McDonald's.)

[Bosda Di'Chi of Tricor]

Maybe he'll make more sense if we say it again, but in a funny accent?
Originally Poshted by PaulEdvardVagemann
Dont hyu tink it iz ridiculas to make someone pay into someting dey are religiously againsht? DO hyu tink it iz right dot Hy should vork hard 40 hours a veek jusht zo 20% uf my earnink can go toward taxes dot pay for corroption und croonyism? Vy vould anyone in deir right mind do dot? Onless dey vere a slave und forced to?

Nope. No better. :rolleyes:

[TokyoBayer]

No, my religion is about not buying into the basic economics of our modern corporate consumer culture.And your religion allows the use of computers? :dubious:

[Alan Smithee]

Maybe he'll make more sense if we say it again, but in a funny accent?


Nope. No better. :rolleyes:
Maybe you need to isolate the command harmonics and put it in a wavy word baloon. ;)

[Lemur866]

Well, it's fine if you don't want to pay your taxes. You are certainly free to refuse to pay your taxes. And the rest of us, those of us who are willing slaves hypnotized by the Military-Industrial complex are free to stick you in jail for refusing to pay your taxes. Actions, consequences.

The mere fact that you think you shouldn't have to pay taxes does not incur in the rest of us an obligation to let you get away with not paying taxes.

Either stop engaging in transactions that incur taxes, or pay your taxes under bitter protest, or go to jail with a smile on your lips. Your choice.

[newcrasher]

There are numerous large tracts of land, both public and private. You could certainly live on one and remain undetected.

I dare say there are many people who think like you. Abhor the corrupt system. Decry the materialism of this world. Refuse to contribute or take from a society that they find immoral.

Of those likeminded people, some disappear into the woods one day to live their lives completely off the grid. I admire the commitment they have to their values. I am sort of jealous of their ability to live out their beliefs.

Then there are people who pay lip service to these beliefs. They sit in relative comfort, usually provided by someone else, parents or taxpayer. then they expound about their latest "revelation" about the corruption of society, as if they alone discovered this fact. Please. We are all so thankful for your enlightenment. :rolleyes:

But to create a "religion" so that you can enjoy the fruits of the toil of others while avoiding making your own contributiion? That in itself is corrupt. To condemn a society while sucking on its tit is hippocracy (or however you spell it).

If you find the concept of money to evil and without merit, suggest a better alternative or head for the woods and live without it.

[Colibri]

To condemn a society while sucking on its tit is hippocracy (or however you spell it).

Government by hippos? In any case, definitely something you don't want sucking on your tit.

[Ludovic]

Government by horses? That sounds a bit more like the actual phrase one has in mind.

[Lemur866]

No, government by horses would be hipparchy.

[Jayrot]

Wow, this thread has certainly changed it's focus from what I (we) probably initially envisioned.

Don't believe me, go back and read the OP again.

[Tristan]

Even if you get your "church" recognized as a viable tax exempt entitiy, that doesn't mean that the money you make flipping burgers can no longer be taxed. You are not your church. You are a member of the society, and therfore subject to those laws.

You can buy property, and declare it an asset of the First Churck of Screw The Man, but since you won't be using to actually serve a purpose in relation to the church, I think you would end up being called on it, and paying heap big back taxes.

Your desire to avoid paying your share of the society we live in and you benefit from in many many ways is going to be very difficult to pass off as a valid faith.

Good luck with that.

[PBear42]

Fairly early on, PEW, Bonton63, requested that you explain your belief system/structure. You've given us a few snippets, but no comprehensive summary, much less an explication. Please do. Meanwhile, I'll inquire what about this belief system is "religous." And, while you're at it, on what is it based? I mean, did God tell you this? Or is this just you theorizing on your own?

As for the legalities, what others have said is true. Freedom of religion means freedom of belief, not freedom of action. Starting a religion does not exempt you from the law.

[HMS Irruncible]

Brain Wreck, your comments are out of line for GQ.

Please leave the moderating to the mods. If you take exception to any post, please use the report post feature instead.

Thanks.

-xash
General Questions Moderator
I apologize. I was having a bad day. Excalibre, I apologize to you too.