Feeble but important to me.

[cosmosdan]

Okay, I've worked retail a while and there's a lot of good and bad when dealing with the public.

The other day a customer came in and spent about an hour trying out various classical guitars. Finally narrowed it down to two but decided to sleep on it. Comes in a couple of days later and plays the same two for another 45 minutes and decides on the more expensive.

In all this interaction we had pleasant conversation and a few laughs about music while I answered his questions and did a little research on the two instruments. Fine.
Then he very politely asks what the bottom line is. He tells me he's not trying to put the squeeze on me but he knows he can buy this guitar on the Internet and save the sales tax. {about $40} I check the net and find the guitar is exactly the same price. I offer him a good used hard shell case for $20 but he doesn't want that. He says he likes the personnel service and I remind him that people have to make the choice and be willing to pay a little more to get that eyeball to eyeball service and to have a store to come to to actually play the guitar they want to buy. We also have a couple of techs to helps folks after a purchase as well.

It irritates me to think someone would use our store and merchandise as well as my time to educate himself on which guitar he wanted and then go to the web over $40 dollars. IMO that's pretty dam tacky. I know people do this all the time on various products. Go to the store to see and touch it and then go to the web to save a few dollars. Some at least have the decency to not take up a sales persons time but at some point the store and that salesperson has earned your business if you decide to buy the item they educated you about. We all have to be concerned about budget and I can understand if the difference is fairly significant but all too often it isn't. For those who consciously do this type of thing, Shame on you. It's tacky and selfish.
You know why customer service seems so much worse now at many places. Because the consumer has sent the message to stores that price is king and customer service doesn't really matter. I mean we want it. We just don't think we should have to pay extra for it. That's an unrealistic expectation. Providing customer service costs money to the company and if you want that service to continue then support that company. If we don't then eventually everything will be owned by a few major companies and then we'll really be screwed.

[Ethilrist]

You know, I hate to wish bad luck on a fellow musician, but if he does end up saving his $40 by buying the same make of guitar on the internet, I hope the one that arrives isn't as well-made as the one you have in your store. You earned that sale.

[John Corrado]

You get plenty of sympathy from me, cosmodan. I used to work for Egghead Software, where we prided ourselves on customer service and product knowledge. A sizable portion of our customers would come in, ask us all sorts of questions, get our opinions on what software they really needed, and then drive over to CompUSA or MicroCenter or Best Buy to buy it for $10 less.

And you'll notice that CompUSA and MicroCenter and Best Buy are still around, but Egghead isn't.

Assholes.

[Sarahfeena]

I have done some studying of Jewish ethics, and I read once that this is actually considered to be stealing, especially if a salesperson's time has been used, if one has no intention of actually buying from them.

[Kevbo]

I've heard this sort of behavior termed "crap-weaseling".

I sometimes do inverted crap weaseling. I'll do a lot of research on line, call a local store, see if they have the item in stock, and buy locally if they do.

I'll also order online if the item, size, or option I want is not in stock. Typically they will offer to special order, but this usually takes a week and a half. I can typically find it online at a lower delivered price, and have it in hand 3-4 days later. Since I'm 6'5" tall and wear size 14 shoes, this happens quite a bit with clothing.

[thirdwarning]

That's incredibly tacky. And when he and his ilk manage to drive the real stores out of business he'll be one of the first to complain that he can't get any help anymore.
I'm fortunate to work in a retail business where people still want to see and feel the merchandise in person. It's a fabric store, so we still have some of that advantage. I think people don't think about what they're doing, or what the consequences will be if they continue to look only at price. I sure don't want to narrow my choices that much.

[Lord Ashtar]

I bet he had to pay at least $40 in shipping costs.

[OneCentStamp]

I bet he had to pay at least $40 in shipping costs.
Unless he ordered from Musician's Friend or Guitar Center, which often feature FREE SHIPPING! on non-heavyweight purchases over $100.

I love shopping local, and do so for all of my consumables (strings, picks, sticks, drum heads, etc.), but as a left-handed guitar player, I'm forced to online retailers or eBay for many of my instrument purchases.

[Cluricaun]

I sometimes do inverted crap weaseling. I'll do a lot of research on line, call a local store, see if they have the item in stock, and buy locally if they do.

I do this too, just to read user reviews and see what a price might be, but I have to hold things in my hands before I’ll buy them most of the time. CD’s and DVD’s don’t count, but clothing, fishing and shooting stuff and electronics sure do.

I don't think it's wrong to read Bass Pro Shops web site and then buy the thing from someone local at all.

[vertizontal]

This kind of thing happened frequently when I worked in a retail camera shop. A customer would come in who had no clue about photography and would take up a great deal of time having me explain the different types of camera and features, and then say they needed to think about it. That customer would come back a few days later, with a camera they bought at K-Mart, and say "Can you show me how to use my new camera?". I was always a nice guy and showed them, but another guy in the store sometimes told them to "take it back to K-Mart and have them show you."

[Eonwe]

I don't know, I'm kind of torn on this.

On the one hand, I totally understand where you're coming from, and I kind of agree.

On the other hand, music is an expensive career/hobby, and sometimes you've gotta cut all the corners you can.

I have a local shop here that's fairly good. I went in and was looking at a particular keyboard (didn't end up buying one anywhere), and the price tag was $300 or so over Musicians Friend. I felt a little sleezy, but I just asked offhand if they had any policy regarding matching online prices, and they pretty much said, 'no, you pay for the service.'

I didn't end up buying a board at all, but the difference between $1900 and $2200 is kind of a lot. Even if it was $150 it's kind of a lot. I can pick up a few cables, a new mic, or pay my cell phone bill for two months.

Sometimes I go in to just try new equipment. With no intention to buy, at least not at the moment. Right now I'm 'dreaming' about getting a new keyboard, and think I have it narrowed down to two, one of which my store carries, and the other is not (there's only one Yamaha dealer in the area, and he doesn't carry the board I want). So, eventually when I go visit my dad I'll find some store in NYC that carries what I'm looking for, go and sit with it for a few hours, and make a decision.

When I do decide, I'll check to see what it'd cost me through my local store, and then compare with some online shops I've had good experiences with. If the difference approaches $200 or more, I'll go online, definitely. If I was talking about cheaper instruments, I might go online over a smaller difference in price ($200 is around 9% of the cost of what I figure my board will cost).

Of course, I buy all my cables, some sheet music, guitar strings, guitar picks, and smaller items locally, and so 'justify' my spending their time (really quite minimal; I'm a pretty hands-off customer, just ask for a set of headphones and go to town) trying out equipment.

Wow, that was a long and boring story. The point is just that, hey, no one has to pay for service, whether or not they buy an instrument from you or anyone else. If they're like me, they take a loooong time researching, trying out, and just deciding if they want to lay down $1000 plus dollars on a new toy/tool.

Also, if we're talking something smaller that's taken more of your time, like you actually spent 45 minutes of hands-on with a customer trying to sell a $300 guitar, and then he or she walks out and goes down the street to buy it for $30 less, then yes, that is pretty lame.

[cosmosdan]

You get plenty of sympathy from me, cosmodan. I used to work for Egghead Software, where we prided ourselves on customer service and product knowledge. A sizable portion of our customers would come in, ask us all sorts of questions, get our opinions on what software they really needed, and then drive over to CompUSA or MicroCenter or Best Buy to buy it for $10 less.

And you'll notice that CompUSA and MicroCenter and Best Buy are still around, but Egghead isn't.

Assholes.

And those people are now bitching about how the clerks in those places don't seem to know much or even want to help them,.

[Green Cymbeline]

I witnessed a similar situation unfold recently, and am torn on it. My boyfriend went to Guitar Center to look at bass guitars. Now, the salespeople at Guitar Center are on commission, which was obvious from the start. Within seconds we were asked by a nice fellow if we needed help, and we said “we’re just looking but we’ll let you know.” My BF knew exactly what he wanted and looked around, found the one he liked, played it a bit, then called the salesguy over. My BF did his research and knew approximately what the markup is on an item like this, and knew what he could get it for online. Guitar Center was supposedly having a “sale,” so he started negotiating with the salesguy. Basically he said, here’s what he had in his pocket to spend, right now. Could he get it for that price, yes or no? So the sales guy had to run back and forth to his manager, checking on how low he could go, and when he couldn’t meet the price, my BF was ready to walk out the door, taking $800 in cash with him. So when they saw that, they finally agreed to his price. Yes, the salesguy got a lower commission than what he could have gotten, but it was still about $25 for about 15 minutes worth of his time (basically just bullshitting about music, etc.) Guitar Center made a sale, and my boyfriend walked away a happy customer. But if they didn’t come down to his price, my boyfriend would have bought online and had no qualms whatsoever about it.

So the questions raised by this are: should brick-and-mortar stores make their prices competitive with online retailers to stay competitive? In the OP’s case, was $40 worth losing a sale over? Couldn’t you have lowered your price in order to secure that customer’s business? Doesn’t the consumer have the right to comparison shop?

I mean, as a consumer, I am looking out for #1, and #1 only. It’s my money and up to me to spend it wisely. I will comparison shop before making a large purchase. If a brick-and-mortar store wants my sale, shouldn’t their price be competitive?

I do feel bad for the OP, and that he wasted his effort and didn’t get the sale, but isn’t the customer’s main concern to get the best product at the best price? As far as my boyfriend was concerned, he was paying for the bass guitar itself, not for the “help” the salesguy provided (which we sensed was slightly suspect from the beginning since he is on commission).

[cosmosdan]

This kind of thing happened frequently when I worked in a retail camera shop. A customer would come in who had no clue about photography and would take up a great deal of time having me explain the different types of camera and features, and then say they needed to think about it. That customer would come back a few days later, with a camera they bought at K-Mart, and say "Can you show me how to use my new camera?". I was always a nice guy and showed them, but another guy in the store sometimes told them to "take it back to K-Mart and have them show you."

I'm with your partner. That used to happen a lot to me at Circuit City. CC made a real effort for years to educate their employees. {They no longer do} We had a rep for being somewhat knowledgeable and folks would call to ask questions about a computer they bought on sale someplace else. I've reprimanded a customer or two when I caught them at it. "If you didn't buy it here don't call us for tech support"

[cosmosdan]

I have done some studying of Jewish ethics, and I read once that this is actually considered to be stealing, especially if a salesperson's time has been used, if one has no intention of actually buying from them.

Wow, I never really thought of it as stealing but I can see your point. There's a trend that I do see as stealing and thats the rent for free folks. Buy it, use it, and return it for a full refund with no intention of keeping it. Return policies have changed because the practice became so wide spread. I don't blame stores for initiating restocking fees or very short return periods.

[cosmosdan]

I don't know, I'm kind of torn on this.

Wow, that was a long and boring story. The point is just that, hey, no one has to pay for service, whether or not they buy an instrument from you or anyone else. If they're like me, they take a loooong time researching, trying out, and just deciding if they want to lay down $1000 plus dollars on a new toy/tool.

Also, if we're talking something smaller that's taken more of your time, like you actually spent 45 minutes of hands-on with a customer trying to sell a $300 guitar, and then he or she walks out and goes down the street to buy it for $30 less, then yes, that is pretty lame.

I understand. I can appreciate the customers who don't actively seek to pick the brain of the sales person. I can also appreciate being on a budget and wanting to save money. If it was a significant difference I'd sure be tempted. There's no problem with someone asking us to price match. What we're talking about is the state sales tax. I know that can also be significant at times. It is in our state.
I'm just saying that I wouldn't withhold a sale from a local store that had really helped me over $40 bucks and I don't have a a ton of money.

The other point is that if we continue to buy online and not support our local stores then we will have fewer choices of places to go and sit and play and try things out. Once corporate chains and online stores have driven local stores out of business we'll have only our own shopping choices to blame.

[John Corrado]

I mean, as a consumer, I am looking out for #1, and #1 only. It’s my money and up to me to spend it wisely. I will comparison shop before making a large purchase. If a brick-and-mortar store wants my sale, shouldn’t their price be competitive?

But the difference in your stories seems to be that your BF knew what guitar he wanted going into Guitar Center. At that point, the salesman wasn't actually helping your BF in making a decision or informing him about the product; he was just acting as a negotiator for a price. If you had decided to leave without buying, I'd stand firmly behind that.

The difference is, cosmosdan (spelled it right that time!) as a salesperson imparted information to the customer and assisted him in choosing the correct guitar. So his customer was willing to use the store's resources to gather information, spend a few hours testing the instruments, and then was [i]unwilling to spend an extra $40 on a guitar in exchange for those services.

That seems a bit cheap to me. And while it may not be stealing, it's certainly shooting yourself in the foot, because if all that matters to you is the cheapest price, eventually you'll drive out of business stores willing to let you use salespersons' time and test out merchandise.

Again - your BF took his own time for research and to make his decision; I don't fault him at all for that. If he'd instead asked a salesperson to help make his decision, and tested guitars for a few hours, and then gone off to a cheaper store, I'd lump him in with dan's customer.

[Dog80]

nyctea, some comments from someone who is in retail

...my BF was ready to walk out the door, taking $800 in cash with him.....

Wrong. Your BF would be walking away with 800-x dollars, where x is the amount of money Guitar Center paid to buy the guitar. If GC paid say $750 then your BF is taking only $50 with him

....Guitar Center made a sale....

The purpose of being in retail is making money, not making sales. If retailers sell something for a very small markup they are actually losing money because they are barely covering their overheads, let alone make any profit.

Some retailers will actually decide to sell something at a very low price to secure a customer, but in my experience haggling customers have very little loyalty, so it is unlikely that they are going to shop there again.

[Dog80]

And I forgot to mention that your BF did nothing wrong. I just wanted to comment on those two misconceptions because I see them often.

[cosmosdan]

I witnessed a similar situation unfold recently, and am torn on it. My boyfriend went to Guitar Center to look at bass guitars. Now, the salespeople at Guitar Center are on commission, which was obvious from the start. Within seconds we were asked by a nice fellow if we needed help, and we said “we’re just looking but we’ll let you know.” My BF knew exactly what he wanted and looked around, found the one he liked, played it a bit, then called the salesguy over. My BF did his research and knew approximately what the markup is on an item like this, and knew what he could get it for online. Guitar Center was supposedly having a “sale,” so he started negotiating with the salesguy. Basically he said, here’s what he had in his pocket to spend, right now. Could he get it for that price, yes or no? So the sales guy had to run back and forth to his manager, checking on how low he could go, and when he couldn’t meet the price, my BF was ready to walk out the door, taking $800 in cash with him. So when they saw that, they finally agreed to his price. Yes, the salesguy got a lower commission than what he could have gotten, but it was still about $25 for about 15 minutes worth of his time (basically just bullshitting about music, etc.) Guitar Center made a sale, and my boyfriend walked away a happy customer. But if they didn’t come down to his price, my boyfriend would have bought online and had no qualms whatsoever about it.

So the questions raised by this are: should brick-and-mortar stores make their prices competitive with online retailers to stay competitive? In the OP’s case, was $40 worth losing a sale over? Couldn’t you have lowered your price in order to secure that customer’s business? Doesn’t the consumer have the right to comparison shop?

I mean, as a consumer, I am looking out for #1, and #1 only. It’s my money and up to me to spend it wisely. I will comparison shop before making a large purchase. If a brick-and-mortar store wants my sale, shouldn’t their price be competitive?

I do feel bad for the OP, and that he wasted his effort and didn’t get the sale, but isn’t the customer’s main concern to get the best product at the best price? As far as my boyfriend was concerned, he was paying for the bass guitar itself, not for the “help” the salesguy provided (which we sensed was slightly suspect from the beginning since he is on commission).

The problem is how do brick and mortor stores compete. A store with employees is more exspensive to keep up than a warehouse that you ship from. The choices you make in looking out for # 1 do effect the choices you get to make down the road. You have a guitar center to go to. As more privately owned stores close down there will be fewer places to go look at instruments and try them out.

Many manufacterers are going to map pricing, {minimum advertised price} That levels the playing feild somewhat. What about sales tax? I suppose we could have come down $40 and sold the guitar cheaper than the online stores but it's hard to keep doing that and still pay employees and lights etc etc.
I understand your point really. You or your boyfriend are looking out for your own finances so why should you care. I'm suggesting that you should care because you might want to have a local store where you can try things out and ask some questions and get some help after the sale. If you do want that just understand that it does cost a little extra. In this case I don't think forty bucks was too much to ask.

In your case your boyfriend did the research and didn't ask much of the salesperson either.
The weird thing about guitars is that they even within the same model number they are unique. Especially Acoustic guitars like this guy played. The one you play in the store won't be exactly the same as the one you order online. That's another reason to pay a little extra when you find one you like locally.

It's not always a clear call but it;s hard to expect a store with employees and upkeep to compete with a warehouse with little upkeep and few employees. If we don't support our local stores then we can't realistically expect them to still be there when we want to go check something out. When you choose to save money in the short term it does have other consequences in the long term.

[El Cid Viscoso]

Was this guy a walk-in, or was he lured by marketing?

[cosmosdan]

nyctea, some comments from someone who is in retail

Wrong. Your BF would be walking away with 800-x dollars, where x is the amount of money Guitar Center paid to buy the guitar. If GC paid say $750 then your BF is taking only $50 with him


The purpose of being in retail is making money, not making sales. If retailers sell something for a very small markup they are actually losing money because they are barely covering their overheads, let alone make any profit.

Some retailers will actually decide to sell something at a very low price to secure a customer, but in my experience haggling customers have very little loyalty, so it is unlikely that they are going to shop there again.

Right! When we sell a guitar for $450 we don't make $450. We paid x for the guitar , Y for the building to display it in so consumers can try it out, and Z for the sales persons pay. That translates into a lot less profit than an online warehouse with few employees.

Again, why should the consumer care about that? It's not their problem right?
Wrong! If you want that store to be there so you can try things out and stop in to pick up whatever else they carry then you need to understand that it costs a little extra to support them. It's all connected and we seem to be forgetting that.

[WhyNot]

The other point is that if we continue to buy online and not support our local stores then we will have fewer choices of places to go and sit and play and try things out. Once corporate chains and online stores have driven local stores out of business we'll have only our own shopping choices to blame.
Or, eventually we'll have not guitar stores, but "Guitar Education Centers", where you can go to talk to an expert, perhaps play a floor model or two, and spend $40 for an hour of advice and hands-on examination. Then you'll go wherever you want to actually buy one.

Or people will rent guitars, like they do carpet cleaners.

Or UPS gets rich off people buying and returning guitars online.

Or guitars become something only rich people dare gamble on.

Or people get used to playing crap guitars.

While I try to avoid Darwinianing social constructs, the fact seems to be that brick-and-mortars CAN'T compete in the long run. Right now, service is not important, no matter what we say about it. So the brick and mortars will indeed die out, and some other form of commerce will rise to take over that niche market that people will be willing to pay for.


And the guy was a jerk and the whole thing is totally frustrating, I agree.

WhyNot,
Manager of Blockbuster when Netflix was pending.

[cosmosdan]

Was this guy a walk-in, or was he lured by marketing?

I wonder why that matters but he was a walk in.

Again, our price was exactly the same as the online stores. He wanted to avoid sales tax by having us pay it for him.

I also offered a good case cheap. About $80 to $100 new. I offered it used for $20 bucks. It was scuffed but very sound. He said he preferred a new case with his new guitar. Okay, thats his choice. If you're willing to pay extra for a new case then why not a little extra to support your local store and the saleperson who helped you.


Part of the issue for me is the amount of time he took up. As a previous poster said. He used the stores resources which included me to make his decision and then left over a nominal amount.
Honestly, even though he seemed like a nice guy, for many shoppers it's a game they feel they have to win. If I don't get some discount or the discount I want then I'm walking. Often it's more about that than the actual dollar amount.

I understand people doing their research and then wanting to come in and check it out in person. Even then, if the difference is nominal then support your local store. If you saw it there and the actual seeing convinced you it was what you wanted give them your business. If there's a huge difference then bring them the evidence that you can get it a lot cheaper online and give them a shot. They may not be able to maych it but they may get a lot closer and have soething else to offer.

[lissener]

I worked in a Chicago pet store that had been in the same family for over 70 years. Then a PetScare opened up down the block, and within 5 years the store I'd worked at was out of business. People would come into our store and pick our brains--few hobbies are as information-intensive as pet husbandry--and then walk down the street to save a buck.

It's dishonest and selfish.

To insist, as nyctea and Eonwe do, that that's just tough titties, that only the bottom line matters, is quite simply wrong. Service is, wait for it, a service. Just because it's not itemized on your bill doesn't mean that it doesn't add value to the product.

As far as I'm concerned, the pet store I worked at was closed due to an epidemic of theft-of-services.

[garygnu]

My response to any attempts at price-match shenanigans at the art supply store I worked at was "If it's cheaper somewhere else, buy it there."
Plus, all the instrument-playing friends I have say they like to play before they buy, as it's all hand-made and all.
But... I did get $300 knocked off a camcorder at The Good Guys just by asking for it.

[El Cid Viscoso]

After he left the store this guy shopped online and found a guitar bundled with a buncha neat shit they couldn't ordinarily sell, like a bright purple case, seven Sammy Hagar picks and a Mel Bay book.

I wonder why that matters but he was a walk in.He's a cost of doing business. Start branding your store as an "answer shop" and maybe you'll mitigate this guy's effects.

A passive effect of leeches: the traffic makes your store look less like a sarcophagus. After all you're in Nashville -- selling guitars to random peckerwoods should be second only to blowjobs.

[cosmosdan]

I worked in a Chicago pet store that had been in the same family for over 70 years. Then a PetScare opened up down the block, and within 5 years the store I'd worked at was out of business. People would come into our store and pick our brains--few hobbies are as information-intensive as pet husbandry--and then walk down the street to save a buck.

It's dishonest and selfish.

To insist, as nyctea and Eonwe do, that that's just tough titties, that only the bottom line matters, is quite simply wrong. Service is, wait for it, a service. Just because it's not itemized on your bill doesn't mean that it doesn't add value to the product.

As far as I'm concerned, the pet store I worked at was closed due to an epidemic of theft-of-services.

Thanks. Succinctly put and pretty dam accurate.
That is my point. People want the service but think they can still get it and wisely avoid paying for it. Guess what? You can't. Service costs money to provide and you should be willing to pay something for it.

If a local store offers you something of value, as in, good information and customer support then give them your business even if it costs a little more. If you've done the bulk of the research yourself which some customers like to do, and you know what you want then you have every right to shop price.
Even then you should keep in mind that it costs money to have a showroom to let you try stuff out. After enough people have bought from Musicians friend to close their local music store they shouldn't bitch that they have to drive an hour or two to check something out. They had a direct hand in that result.

[Bippy the Beardless]

I didn't end up buying a board at all, but the difference between $1900 and $2200 is kind of a lot. Even if it was $150 it's kind of a lot. I can pick up a few cables, a new mic, or pay my cell phone bill for two months..

It all comes down to value really. I doubt any shop gives $300 worth of service when you buy a keyboard from them. They should lose the sale if they think their leval of helpfulness was worth that much to the customer.
On the other hand help from a shop (especially good advice saving you from buying the wrong product for your needs) is worth maybe $10 to $50, especially if there is after purchase help available from the shop as well.

[ultrafilter]

As far as I'm concerned, the pet store I worked at was closed due to an epidemic of theft-of-services.It's not stealing if you're giving it away for free. At any point your pet store had the option to set up a consulting/training business and charge for it. They didn't; ergo, it was free for the taking.

So the questions raised by this are: should brick-and-mortar stores make their prices competitive with online retailers to stay competitive?Nah, down that route lies bankruptcy. The cost of operating an offline store is too much higher than that of an online one to compete solely on the price of goods. If brick and mortar stores want to succeed, they need to sell services and treat the knowledge of their employees as a commodity.

Wrong. Your BF would be walking away with 800-x dollars, where x is the amount of money Guitar Center paid to buy the guitar. If GC paid say $750 then your BF is taking only $50 with himIf you don't sell the item, you're still out $800. The customer may only walk away with $50 in profit, but the total cost still counts against your bottom line.

[Sarahfeena]

Wow, I never really thought of it as stealing but I can see your point. There's a trend that I do see as stealing and thats the rent for free folks. Buy it, use it, and return it for a full refund with no intention of keeping it. Return policies have changed because the practice became so wide spread. I don't blame stores for initiating restocking fees or very short return periods. I really do see it as stealing, just as much as your example. A store may charge more, but part of that is to cover the cost of the knowledgable salespeople, which is a little pricier than having a picture & description online. If someone goes in and uses the salespersons' expertise without any intention to buy, then they are clearly not paying for the service they have been given. This is not to say that one can't comparison shop, or decide not to buy from a given store, for whatever reason. But to purposely go to a store to gather information, with full intent to then go purchase the item somewhere else cheaper is stealing, IMO.

[cosmosdan]

I really do see it as stealing, just as much as your example. A store may charge more, but part of that is to cover the cost of the knowledgable salespeople, which is a little pricier than having a picture & description online. If someone goes in and uses the salespersons' expertise without any intention to buy, then they are clearly not paying for the service they have been given. This is not to say that one can't comparison shop, or decide not to buy from a given store, for whatever reason. But to purposely go to a store to gather information, with full intent to then go purchase the item somewhere else cheaper is stealing, IMO.

Yeah. Someone else described it as theft of services and I can see that. The other down side is I see a trend to reduce it to a purely financial transaction rather than a human relationship. Too bad I think. It used to be that we might go out of our way to help someone without asking for much or any compensation. It was community and that person you helped today would remember that help and give you their business when when they were ready to buy. Now it seems people will take that help and then just walk away to save themselves a couple of bucks. What about that person who just helped you and their lively hood. What about the business that help provide the service? It's not an obligation. It's just realizing we're dealing with real people rather than just numbers. Our survival response is to not offer the help and to have a fee for everything.
If we got exceptional service from a waitress and then walked out without leaving a tip how would we be labeled? A previous poster suggested that if you're giving away the information and service then that's tuff luck. Why should people pay for it? The same relationship is implied in the waitress scenario. If the waitress gives you good service then she has earned the right to expect a decent tip. If a store /salesperson gives you good service they have earned the right to expect your business. Taking their service and then going elsewhere to purchase the item they showed you to save a buck is just being a cheap bastard.
We still get people that need some help and we're willing to help but the sense of community is fading. People will take the help but have no sense of community when it comes time to make a purchase. IMHO it reduces us to numbers and a sense of "what's in it for me?" Maybe I'm too nostalgic for small town life or just resisting the inevitable. It's normal for shopping trends to change. I just want people to understand the relationship and the longer term consequences of their choices.

[cosmosdan]

It all comes down to value really. I doubt any shop gives $300 worth of service when you buy a keyboard from them. They should lose the sale if they think their leval of helpfulness was worth that much to the customer.
On the other hand help from a shop (especially good advice saving you from buying the wrong product for your needs) is worth maybe $10 to $50, especially if there is after purchase help available from the shop as well.

I'd agree with that. Keep in mind a small local store can't get the bulk buy deals that major online dealers do. If you want them to remain there you might have to widen your expectations oif what their presence is worth. Having the item there for you to to try out is worth something even if no salesperson ever helps you. Online stores can't give you that.

Sales tax is another issue. I'm begining to think to even the playing field and to help support state highways schools etc online stores should have to charge state sales tax for the state of the purchaser. In my example the price was exactly the same and it was only the sales tax that made a difference.

States that support their infrastructure with sales tax can really get screwed.

[Dog80]

If you don't sell the item, you're still out $800. The customer may only walk away with $50 in profit, but the total cost still counts against your bottom line.

So what? I can always sell the item to somebody else. What I was commenting on was the attitude "I am spending X amount of dollars so I am an important customer".

[Rigamarole]

Is it just me or isn't everyone supposed to report all online purchases to the IRS and still pay sales tax on them? You could at least tip them off to his tax-fraud.

[gigi]

Is it just me or isn't everyone supposed to report all online purchases to the IRS and still pay sales tax on them? You could at least tip them off to his tax-fraud.Isn't sales tax a state thing? In our state, we can use a formula they give to cover guesstimated sales tax on items shipped in from out of state.

[D_Odds]

Is it just me or isn't everyone supposed to report all online purchases to the IRS and still pay sales tax on them? You could at least tip them off to his tax-fraud.
I don't believe the IRS cares about state sales tax, except when used as a deduction (not a tax accountant or lawyer though, so I could be wrong). However, the state revenue agencies care greatly about out-of-state purchases (not just online) when sales tax is a revenue source.

[D_Odds]

Bah. Shows what I get for opening a window and replying to it 45 minutes later without previewing. Sorry gigi.

[Eonwe]

To insist, as nyctea and Eonwe do, that that's just tough titties, that only the bottom line matters, is quite simply wrong. Service is, wait for it, a service. Just because it's not itemized on your bill doesn't mean that it doesn't add value to the product.

As far as I'm concerned, the pet store I worked at was closed due to an epidemic of theft-of-services.

Now now, I don't think that only the bottom line matters. As I said, if the difference in cost is significant enough, then it becomes an important issue. $30 dollars on a $300 guitar, if I've used up a fair amount of a seller's time? I'll pay it gladly. $200 on a $2000 item? Well, it kind of depends. I admit that it wouldn't rank #1 on Miss Manners' list of things to do, but I don't know that I could really fault someone on it. "Come on, guy, I just helped you out!" "Yeah, but not $200 worth of help."

And, I think the comparison to theft is just wrong. Ultrafilter has said it already, but you're giving help away for free. It's a service that stores provide customers and non-customers alike.

In fact, I'd even say, particularly when thinking about competing with non-service retailers like online stores, that help and attention from sales staff isn't a service at all, it's a marketing strategy. Like an advertisement, or a rebate, or anything else, having it is an attempt to first draw the attention of potential customers, and then hopefully make a sale.

Good service is a tool meant to bring people into a store; meant to get potential buyers to look at your merchandise. And, it's meant in part to build loyalty and hopefully make potential customers want to give you their money. Just because it doesn't work doesn't make those individuals jerks. They just weren't drawn in by your marketing strategy.

[Velma]

I agree that wasting the time of a salesperson is rude if you then go and buy it elsewhere.

However, I find something happening more and more that is very frustrating, and that is the difference between online prices and store prices from stores that have their own websites, like Target or ToysRUs. Quite often before I go shopping for an item I like to narrow down my choices by going online first, and doing research and price comparing, then I'll pick up the item myself at the store to save shipping, especially for bigger items.

For example, a few months ago I wanted to buy my son a little sandbox for the yard, and I looked online and found one I liked at ToysRUs. The online price was $45 with $20 shipping for a total of $65. I went to the store and the same sandbox was $70. At this point I am thinking "I am paying $5 for the priviledge of driving here myself and packing it in my own car and taking it home" This is backwards to me since in my mind the convenience of having an item shipped directly to me and buying it from my home is what I would pay extra for. For items like this I wish the stores would at least have 'online' prices and 'in store' prices listed for the item so I know that if I go to the store the price is different. It makes it impossible to price shop without driving around or calling all the stores, which is what I want to use the internet for! To save myself that trouble.

I have worked in sales and customer service myself though and I do agree that using a salesperson for info and then buying elsewhere is tacky at best. I am just talking about buying items that don't need technical help or usually sales help, like everyday stuff you buy at Target or toys or whatever. I have a hard time justifying the extra to pay for the 'expertise' of the average ToysRUs salesperson.

[Shecky]

I run a tech service. It's got a guarantee that if we don't fix it, you don't pay. All well and good, except for the tire kickers that start out the appointment with, "I want to know what's wrong with it, THEN I'll decide whether it's worth it for you to fix." Now, we've expanded into a pay-by-minute phone tech support. I can't BEGIN to tell you how many people try to weasel info out of us for free. Our calls all start out ok. We try to get the credit card # in 2 minutes. We're changing to an automated system so we can just have it up and start charging as soon as the tech gets on the phone. Some true gems from 3 days:

- Got cut off in the middle of saying, "thank you for ca--" and asked about printer issues. When I asked for the CC #, I got the finest answer: "Oh, my 90 day warranty expired with Dell, and I didn't want to pay those guys another $150 for 3 years. I figured you could help me for free, since you're small and local."
- A woman who gave us an erroneous CC# then said she would give us a good one at the end of the call. No, madam, sorry. That's called fraud. I believe wire fraud at that. Find another sucker.
- A VoIP customer that got tired of waiting for their TS, so called us, expecting us to charge the VoIP provider for helping her.
- A guy who accused us of padding the bill at the end of the call, because - get this - we don't round to the nearest 6 seconds, just the nearest minute. Um, hello? We're charging you PER MINUTE, douchebag. We didn't mention anything AT ALL about 6 seconds. That's your long distance provider.

How about the ESL classes I do for the local Brazilian population. I have a soft spot for them, so I charge $15 a class, or a month for $100. I have yet to keep a student over a month because once their English skills are passable, they stop coming. Ok, stop coming, but then also STOP ASKING ME TO HELP WITH YOUR CLIENTS! It's insulting to me, which is why I say I'm too busy teaching other classes even though I've got none.
Oh, and you HAVE broken the law:
- You came here legally, but stayed past your visa time. By 7 years!
-You registered your car in North Carolina or Pennsylvania and pay no insurance (both of which are illegal in NJ)
Is it really any wonder why I won't help you any more?

[Nava]

One of the selling points of FNAC is "our guys aren't on commision; they're here to advise you on what's right for you, not on whatever will give them the biggest commision."

I can attest to that: it's one of a handful of stores where I've actually been told "we don't have that product but these guys *scribbles address on a store card* may".

This means that when I'm looking at buying something from FNAC or from another chain and the prices are comparable, I'll choose FNAC. They've earned my trust. And I would call the OP's non-customer a complete asshole, but my butthole might take offense.

[cosmosdan]

I run a tech service. It's got a guarantee that if we don't fix it, you don't pay. All well and good, except for the tire kickers that start out the appointment with, "I want to know what's wrong with it, THEN I'll decide whether it's worth it for you to fix." Now, we've expanded into a pay-by-minute phone tech support. I can't BEGIN to tell you how many people try to weasel info out of us for free. Our calls all start out ok. We try to get the credit card # in 2 minutes. We're changing to an automated system so we can just have it up and start charging as soon as the tech gets on the phone. Some true gems from 3 days:

- Got cut off in the middle of saying, "thank you for ca--" and asked about printer issues. When I asked for the CC #, I got the finest answer: "Oh, my 90 day warranty expired with Dell, and I didn't want to pay those guys another $150 for 3 years. I figured you could help me for free, since you're small and local."
- A woman who gave us an erroneous CC# then said she would give us a good one at the end of the call. No, madam, sorry. That's called fraud. I believe wire fraud at that. Find another sucker.
- A VoIP customer that got tired of waiting for their TS, so called us, expecting us to charge the VoIP provider for helping her.
- A guy who accused us of padding the bill at the end of the call, because - get this - we don't round to the nearest 6 seconds, just the nearest minute. Um, hello? We're charging you PER MINUTE, douchebag. We didn't mention anything AT ALL about 6 seconds. That's your long distance provider.

How about the ESL classes I do for the local Brazilian population. I have a soft spot for them, so I charge $15 a class, or a month for $100. I have yet to keep a student over a month because once their English skills are passable, they stop coming. Ok, stop coming, but then also STOP ASKING ME TO HELP WITH YOUR CLIENTS! It's insulting to me, which is why I say I'm too busy teaching other classes even though I've got none.
Oh, and you HAVE broken the law:
- You came here legally, but stayed past your visa time. By 7 years!
-You registered your car in North Carolina or Pennsylvania and pay no insurance (both of which are illegal in NJ)
Is it really any wonder why I won't help you any more?

Those are great examples fo the kind of attitude I'm talking about. People seem to think if they can somehow weasel what they want from someone then it's fair game. Well, you might succeed but you're still a weasel.
When I sold computers this happened all the time. Then they have the nads to act all offended and insulted because you won't let them get away with it and have the nads to call them on it.
Our techs charge a bench fee. It cost X to check it out, and give you an estimate repair. People act offended at the thought. Occasionally a tech will stop his work to be nice and check something out , and when he says. "Oh we just need to change this tube and resoder this connection." the customer will say, "I can do that myself" and leave without paying. They don't think they owe anything for this professional technician to diagnose the problem. It cost something for a professional to spend time diagnosing your stuff. You shouldn't expect that for free. Sigh!! It's a freakin epidemic.

One question about your tech service. What happens when you can fix it but it's not worth it. If it cost $200 to fix a computer worth $250, what then?

[Dinsdale]

I have some mixed feelings here. You don't say the price of the guitar, but I'd assume it is at least a few hundred. Given that, I'd say the customer was cheap - and a dick. Especially when you indicated a willingness to work with him re: the deal on the case. Maybe could have gone back and forth some more - a set of strings or somesuch. But if I were the customer and I respected the service and advice I received from a local store, I would shop locally in case I needed service or assistance in the future. Always interested in developing relationships with local merchants. And especially when buying something as individual as an instrument.

But I'm thinking about my hobby of planted aquaria-keeping. LFS mark their hardware up incredibly. It is hard to convince yourself to pay a 100% markup on a filter readily available on-line just to support your LFS. If other hobbies are like mine, once you get below the surface (get it? I crack me up!) local vendors are rarely stocked to serve your needs. It just makes more sense for me to buy my chemicals and such in bulk either on-line or from other sources.

But if the LFS offered the same price as on-line, I would readily pay the sales tax and buy locally.

Then you have the entire used market and private sellers. So many hobbies have people who go into them big, only to quickly lose interest. Heck, I can pick up more aquaria than I could ever use just by keeping my eyes open on trash day. And local fish and plant clubs offer better stock at a fraction of the price. The internet has made it easier to get advice from and seek out transactions with private parties and manufacturers.

The final things that dissuaded me from dealing with the local fish stores any more than necessary was the repeated instances of downright incorrect information I received, and the "attitude" of many of the store owners and employees. Far too often when I go into a specialty store with money I'd like to spend, I'm greeted with the attitude that the personnel thinks taking my $ is doing me a favor.

It is difficult to blame the customers or the internet entirely for the prevalent attidtude. After instances in which I encountered disinterested, ignorant, and/or incompetent sales staff, I have mighty low expectations going into just about any store.

[Cemetery Savior]

Or, eventually we'll have not guitar stores, but "Guitar Education Centers", where you can go to talk to an expert, perhaps play a floor model or two, and spend $40 for an hour of advice and hands-on examination. Then you'll go wherever you want to actually buy one.

Actually, I think this is a nice idea. We have something similar in Chicago (WhyNot...are you from Chicago...can't remember).

The Old Town School of Folk Music Old Town (http://www.oldtownschool.org) offers tons of classes, demos, and live shows. I think the business model for brick-and-mortar establishments will likely move to a footing where the physical purchase is a side-benefit of the teaching (clumsy syntax, but you know what I mean). I suspect that Old Town's store section does pretty well.

It's unlikely you'll get a comparable lesson or other experience from the Internet.

-Cem

[Shecky]

cosmodan, I usually weed out the "not worth it"s. I take the calls, but dispatch the techs. I'll answer the phone, listen to the problem, then determine if it's worth it for us to come out for $120 and hour. A woman with a broken keyboard wanted us to come out anyway, and I was stupid, so I told her no, and go get a new one from the local PC shop or staples or anywhere else. Got a call from her later on to install it.

THAT'S when I made the appointment. And told her upfront the exact price. Didn't even pause when she said ok. I often will tell people to go to the local store instead of the chains, but lately in this area, they've become scarce. And a little too difficult to understand past the accent. Ask for RAM, get a LAN. Not good business.

[WhyNot]

Actually, I think this is a nice idea. We have something similar in Chicago (WhyNot...are you from Chicago...can't remember).
Yep, I'm from Chicago.

Old Town is a pretty good example of what I'm thinking of, although you can still go into their store and pick the brains of their clerks. However, they are a nonprofit, so I'm not sure if their business model will translate into the for-profit industry.

According to their annual report (warning, PDF!) (http://www.oldtownschool.org/info/annual_report.pdf) , in 2004, they made 3,964,295 from tuition and spent 3,862,138 on instructional programs; they made 1,466,802 from Music Stores and Cafes and spent 1,536,831. So they're definitely making more money from instruction than sales, in fact sales are costing them money.

[Selkie]

I worked in a Chicago pet store that had been in the same family for over 70 years. Then a PetScare opened up down the block, and within 5 years the store I'd worked at was out of business. People would come into our store and pick our brains--few hobbies are as information-intensive as pet husbandry--and then walk down the street to save a buck.


lissener, I think you may be describing my family's pet store. Not that it is/was at all unusual for small, service-oriented pet stores to be driven out of business by large discounters, but there weren't that many 70-year old same-family-owned pet stores in Chicago to begin with. Were the initials "V.O." by any chance?

[FriarTed]

I have done some studying of Jewish ethics, and I read once that this is actually considered to be stealing, especially if a salesperson's time has been used, if one has no intention of actually buying from them.

Yeah, I found out about that from Dennis Prager. Though he does distinquish that from legitimate comparison shopping.

[Skald the Rhymer]

Preach on, brother. Sister the Rhymer is utterly shameless about this (and also about returning items after a ridiculous period of time), and when I worked in retail it infuriated me (particularly when she did it at my store). She'll quiz a salesperson when she has no intention of buying from that store, or come back to a different salesperson without even trying to find the person she spent an hour with a day earlier. Her rationalization is that the big stores are the only one being hurt; she didn't seem to get, or care, that she is TAKING TIME AND MONEY AWAY FROM THAT COMMISSION SALESPERSON.

[Skald the Rhymer]

This kind of thing happened frequently when I worked in a retail camera shop. A customer would come in who had no clue about photography and would take up a great deal of time having me explain the different types of camera and features, and then say they needed to think about it. That customer would come back a few days later, with a camera they bought at K-Mart, and say "Can you show me how to use my new camera?". I was always a nice guy and showed them, but another guy in the store sometimes told them to "take it back to K-Mart and have them show you."

I saw this happen all the time when I sold televisions. One particularly egregious incident involved a woman who wanted to buy a 36" sony tv and was choosing between my store and Wal-Mart. My co-worker explained quite patiently and clearly between two models, one of which had dual-tuner picture-in-picture while the other had single-tuner (so you could only get the PIP with a VCR hooked up). The "customer" then went to Wal-Mart and found a 36" set for less, but no one there could tell her the difference; she called our store to ask what the difference was but could tell us what the model number was, then wanted one of US to go to Wally World to find out FOR HER. She bought the Wal-Mart set, which, it developed, was cheaper because it didn't have PIP at all -- then came to us wanting to take one of our display remote controls, figuring that was the only difference.

(This is the perfect time for the Putz smiley. Gosh, I miss him.)

[lissener]

lissener, I think you may be describing my family's pet store. Not that it is/was at all unusual for small, service-oriented pet stores to be driven out of business by large discounters, but there weren't that many 70-year old same-family-owned pet stores in Chicago to begin with. Were the initials "V.O." by any chance?P.V.P.S.