Dying without dignity...with a twist

[Kalhoun]

I've mentioned my dying SIL a number of times. She is under hospice care and seems to have taken a turn for the worse. I don't think she'll be here for Thanksgiving, and probably not even for Halloween. However, I said the same thing six months ago and she proved us wrong. Sturdy constitution on that side of the family.

She has extremely limited funds. Her income is $1000 per month. Her caregiver is $3600 month. She owns her home but has utilities to pay. All in all, it costs her about $4000 per month.

She's working on getting a reverse mortgage, but it is by no means a done deal. Here's the thing. She is spending money like there's a money tree in her living room. She buys sheets and curtains to match her caftan. She buys $120 worth of steaks. She buys $100 worth of tilapia. She spends $150/mo. on cat supplies. She buys gifts for everyone.

She's also borrowing money from her elderly mother ($7500) and her ex-husband ($5000) and her children ($1000 here and there) and withholding that information from each of them, presumably so she can get more money from each of them to piss away.

We've caught her in lies about how much she's borrowed and from who. My husband (her brother) is disgusted, my MIL is hurt about the lying but doesn't want to say anything in fear of her daughter dying with bad blood between them.

I realize no one can be taken advantage of if they have the information and continue to allow it. She's made some really bad choices in her life and her children are extremely stand-offish with her (one of them has only been to see her once or twice in the year since she was diagnosed). I think most of this insane spending (she spends her entire day going through catalogs and purchasing crap to the tune of $1000s) is inadequately filling an enormous hole in her heart that is there primarily due to her own behavior.

Well, after all that background, I guess I'm looking for opinions. Would you loan a dying person money for purchasing crap that is unnecessary? Would you try to discuss the underlying issues that appear to be the motivation behind it? Would you tell her you'll only loan her money for necessities? Does it matter as long as she's "happy" when she dies? Would you tell her off as you would a perfectly healthy friend/sibling who was doing the same thing?

[Count Blucher]

Don't be the executor of her estate. Don't let your husband be executor either. If named as executor anywhere, Refuse The Honor and make a back-up do it.

Hint: its not going to be pretty.

[ShelliBean]

Nobody wants to be the asshole that makes the dying cancer patient cry. I'm no psychologist, not even a Monday morning Psychologist, but I think you are correct about filling some need with "stuff" instead of love.
Is there any way to get her mother and her children together to all be at peace before she dies? You mentioned that some of her family (her kids, even) don't come around much. Could you (or better yet, your husband) approach it at first in a way of "Look, we think she is asking for money and spending like crazy as a way to make herself feel better and to keep some communication open with you guys. This could stop her from asking for money from you guys." Maybe that would get them in the door if they were unwilling to do it out of pure unselfishness/unwillingness to be hurt again (I don't know what she did or how bad it was, but if her kids aren't wanting to come around while she's on death-watch?) .
Hope it gets better for you.
You asked if it were me would I give money? Well, I would probably start off giving what I could until it became a real problem for me, like being unable to make a car payment because of what I gave away. I would love to say that I would sit her down and discuss it calmly with her, but if it were close to the end I would probably tell her I didn't have any money right now and she would die before I had that confrontation with her.
Not exactly making me sound like the noble woman of the year, but the truth is ugly.

[Mouse_Maven]

My condolences for your situation Kalhoun. :(

I agree with you and ShelliBean, your SIL is probably buying things to fill an emotional void. (Unless this illness has effected her mind. There cases where people with dementia go around buying things and forget what they have done)

If I were in that situation, I would not give SIL money. If things looked bad for her, I would make a payment directly to the debtor. You can sugar-coat it with "I know that things are tough right now. Why don't I save you the trouble of mailing the utility payment and send it off for you?"

Good luck to you.

[alphaboi867]

Don't be the executor of her estate. Don't let your husband be executor either. If named as executor anywhere, Refuse The Honor and make a back-up do it.

Hint: its not going to be pretty.
I agree. Her estate looks like it's going to her creditors nobodly else is going to get a dime. On a related note who's paying for the funeral? Would her debts take precedence over her funeral expenses?

[Kalhoun]

Nobody wants to be the asshole that makes the dying cancer patient cry. I'm no psychologist, not even a Monday morning Psychologist, but I think you are correct about filling some need with "stuff" instead of love.
Is there any way to get her mother and her children together to all be at peace before she dies? You mentioned that some of her family (her kids, even) don't come around much. Could you (or better yet, your husband) approach it at first in a way of "Look, we think she is asking for money and spending like crazy as a way to make herself feel better and to keep some communication open with you guys. This could stop her from asking for money from you guys." Maybe that would get them in the door if they were unwilling to do it out of pure unselfishness/unwillingness to be hurt again (I don't know what she did or how bad it was, but if her kids aren't wanting to come around while she's on death-watch?) .
Hope it gets better for you.
You asked if it were me would I give money? Well, I would probably start off giving what I could until it became a real problem for me, like being unable to make a car payment because of what I gave away. I would love to say that I would sit her down and discuss it calmly with her, but if it were close to the end I would probably tell her I didn't have any money right now and she would die before I had that confrontation with her.
Not exactly making me sound like the noble woman of the year, but the truth is ugly.
Her children have always felt that she's selfish and are "putting up" with her because she's on the way out. She left them with her ex and ran off with her uncle (who was a crazy mutherfucker in his own right). This is an enormous hurt for the son that is helping out begrudgingly. It is nearly insurmountable for the other son. He has been browbeaten into doing a shopping run for groceries (and picked up the tab), but only because his brother can't handle it from another state, while trying to work a couple jobs.

[Kalhoun]

My condolences for your situation Kalhoun. :(

I agree with you and ShelliBean, your SIL is probably buying things to fill an emotional void. (Unless this illness has effected her mind. There cases where people with dementia go around buying things and forget what they have done)

If I were in that situation, I would not give SIL money. If things looked bad for her, I would make a payment directly to the debtor. You can sugar-coat it with "I know that things are tough right now. Why don't I save you the trouble of mailing the utility payment and send it off for you?"

Good luck to you.
You know, I tried that. Her response was, "I don't WANT to just get by. I want to buy fun things and have fun, pretty, shiney stuff!" She didn't actually say that she's entitled because she's dying, but it was unmistakeably implied. That is also why she's playing everyone's emotions and lying about how much she's borrowing. She doesn't need any more money but she keeps borrowing. "So and so only gave me $2K...I need more to pay my caregiver." Then we find out so and so actually gave her $5K.

It pains me to have these angry feelings toward her when she's dying. I'm pissed, but I also pity her.

[Kalhoun]

I agree. Her estate looks like it's going to her creditors nobodly else is going to get a dime. On a related note who's paying for the funeral? Would her debts take precedence over her funeral expenses?
Well, here's an interesting twist. Her son pre-paid her funeral back in March when they pulled the plug on her (she came back from the brink). She just recently called the funeral home and asked for the money back. Her children will have to pay for it and recoup their money from the estate.

[ivylass]

Well, here's an interesting twist. Her son pre-paid her funeral back in March when they pulled the plug on her (she came back from the brink). She just recently called the funeral home and asked for the money back. Her children will have to pay for it and recoup their money from the estate.

Okay, this tears it. Stick the bitch out on the curb for the garbage to pick up. Just when I thought she'd gone as low as she could...how come she got the money and not her son, who paid for it?

Question, if she's on hospice care, how "well" is she? My FIL was on hospice care (it kicked in for the last three months of his life, he went downhill pretty quick) and he was barely able to sit up in bed, much less make phone calls begging for money and buying pretty shiny stuff.

Cut her off. She's sucking you guys dry and you'll be paying for it well after the funeral.

[Kalhoun]

Okay, this tears it. Stick the bitch out on the curb for the garbage to pick up. Just when I thought she'd gone as low as she could...how come she got the money and not her son, who paid for it?

Question, if she's on hospice care, how "well" is she? My FIL was on hospice care (it kicked in for the last three months of his life, he went downhill pretty quick) and he was barely able to sit up in bed, much less make phone calls begging for money and buying pretty shiny stuff.

Cut her off. She's sucking you guys dry and you'll be paying for it well after the funeral.
I should clarify that he paid for it out of her checking account. It was her money.

She is on methadone, morphine, and a pain patch and the pain is getting worse all the time. She has breast-to-bone-to-liver-to-lung cancer, severe edema due to presumed kidney failure again (she looks like she's ready to deliver twins) and respiratory problems over and above the cancer. She finally got to the point where she could walk to the bathroom after 4+ months in bed, but she fell not too long ago. I think she may still get out of bed maybe once a day, but its stubbornness; she really shouldn't ever get up.

[Kalhoun]

Regarding the hospice thing, they figured her for dead once already. The hospice people generally go by the "6 months to live" rule, and because you can't always pinpoint that sort of thing, they review it periodically. There's no way there will be a reversal of her condition. It's just a matter of time.

[ivylass]

I should clarify that he paid for it out of her checking account. It was her money.

Okay, I thought you meant he paid for it out of his pocket and she took the money back.

She is on methadone, morphine, and a pain patch and the pain is getting worse all the time. She has breast-to-bone-to-liver-to-lung cancer, severe edema due to presumed kidney failure again (she looks like she's ready to deliver twins) and respiratory problems over and above the cancer. She finally got to the point where she could walk to the bathroom after 4+ months in bed, but she fell not too long ago. I think she may still get out of bed maybe once a day, but its stubbornness; she really shouldn't ever get up.

Look, "dying" is not an excuse to act like a jerk. She's acting like a jerk. If she were well would you be putting up with this crap? I think not.

[Fish]

Look, "dying" is not an excuse to act like a jerk.
It's almost as if Life needs rules like the SDMB, because Og knows nobody would ever do that here. :p

[Kalhoun]

Okay, I thought you meant he paid for it out of his pocket and she took the money back.



Look, "dying" is not an excuse to act like a jerk. She's acting like a jerk. If she were well would you be putting up with this crap? I think not.
I agree, she's acting like a jerk and playing on everyone's sympathy. The question is, do you say something or let it go?

[WhyNot]

Yeah, I hate to sound heartless, but dying does not make one wise, or noble or any of that rot. It may, sometimes, for some people, make then more introspective and learn things about themselves and the universe that they've been ignoring for all these years, but most often it doesn't.

She sounds like she's been a greedy, selfish person all her life, and she's determined to remain a greedy selfish person to her death.

I don't think she should suffer (heck, when I go, I intend to do it with a massive heroin overdose and enjoy every second of it), but I don't think her kids and family should suffer, either.

Disengage. Is it better to risk honesty, even if that means she dies before you've made nicey-nice, or to suck it up, become resentful and grow to hate the sight of her face before she dies anyway? She's dying, ain't no getting around that. She's not going to hold a grudge longer than a year in any case - you'll (hopefully) have to live with yourself a lot longer than that.

[Kalhoun]

I want to say, "Do you realize how selfish and irresponsible you're being? Do you realize that everyone is struggling to not be angry with you on your death bed?" Then I think how lonely it must be to know the end is near and realize that your children aren't going to miss you much, that you squandered so much time and love. It's just so sad.

[CrankyAsAnOldMan]

Question, if she's on hospice care, how "well" is she? My FIL was on hospice care (it kicked in for the last three months of his life, he went downhill pretty quick) and he was barely able to sit up in bed, much less make phone calls begging for money and buying pretty shiny stuff.


This is kind of a sideline, but hospice care generally means two things.

First, it means doctors believe you are terminal, and may have six months or less to live.

Second, it means you are forgoing future "curative" treatment are instead going to have only palliative care.

Hospice patients may or may not act or look sick at any given point. Hospice care is adjusted accordingly. If the patient is relatively well, their hospice care may be as limited as a nurse stopping by to check vitals. Obviously, most hospice patients are going to get worse at some point, and generally soon, but you don't have to be debilitated or looking like you have foot in the grave to be in hospice care.

And, as Kalhoun has noted, you can get sufficiently better that you get booted out of hospice, either to start getting curative, aggressive treatment, or to just get on with living.

[ivylass]

I agree, she's acting like a jerk and playing on everyone's sympathy. The question is, do you say something or let it go?

If you honestly thought she would take your words to heart and say, "Oh, my God, you're right!" and change her ways, then say something.

If she will shrug it off with "But I'm dyyyyiiiiiiiiiinnnnnnnnnggggggggg!" then tell her you won't be around to help her anymore, because her death is going to be hard enough on you as it is without adding bitter memories of how she acted leading up to it.

Then wish her well, and for Og's sake, be a good Auntie and get her kids out of the situation.

[Kalhoun]

If you honestly thought she would take your words to heart and say, "Oh, my God, you're right!" and change her ways, then say something.

If she will shrug it off with "But I'm dyyyyiiiiiiiiiinnnnnnnnnggggggggg!" then tell her you won't be around to help her anymore, because her death is going to be hard enough on you as it is without adding bitter memories of how she acted leading up to it.

Then wish her well, and for Og's sake, be a good Auntie and get her kids out of the situation.
They're in their 40s. This resentment has been going on since the 70s.

I'd like to think she'd give a shit if someone said something to her, but I don't think she's capable, with all the drugs and pain, of thinking rationally. And I'm not convinced her son is wrong in saying she's been selfish her whole life. At times, she was the most generous person you'd ever meet. As I said, she's buying gifts for everyone who helped her. I plan on waiting until she dies and then returning it so the estate doesn't dwindle down any more than necessary.

Her mother feels better about things if she attributes the bad behavior to the drugs and sickness, but I don't know if that would be an accurate assessment or not.

[ivylass]

So she's buying gifts she can't afford to give to people she's being a bitch to?

If you think it will help, sit down and have a conversation with her. At least you can say you tried.

[alphaboi867]

...Her children will have to pay for it and recoup their money from the estate.

Would that even be an option? You've made is sound like she's in debt. IANAL but don't creditors get first crack at the estate? They might end up having to pay out of pocket.

[Kalhoun]

Would that even be an option? You've made is sound like she's in debt. IANAL but don't creditors get first crack at the estate? They might end up having to pay out of pocket.
Well, the house is worth about $110K but will need considerable work to make it sellable (it smells exactly like a kitty box that hasn't been changed in 3 years...mainly because that's what it was until we went in with a crew and gutted the joint). If she gets the reverse mortgage, she would get $41K which would support her for less than a year (don't see it going anywhere near that long). So her kids can sell the house and everyone will eventually get most or all of their money back. That's not the point but I'm sure she's thinking that's the justification.

[Kalhoun]

Would that even be an option? You've made is sound like she's in debt. IANAL but don't creditors get first crack at the estate? They might end up having to pay out of pocket.
Also, I'm dying to know what her credit card bill looks like. I'm not entirely comfortable with the fact that she could be ordering stuff that won't show up on anyone's radar until she's dead and leaves a giant bill.

And before you say anything, I talked to her son about taking complete control of her finances, and she won't give it up.

[Mouse_Maven]

She is on methadone, morphine, and a pain patch

Holy shit! She's on this kind of medication and still manages to be mean, irresponsible and stupid? I'd hate to see what she was like healthy.

[Kalhoun]

Holy shit! She's on this kind of medication and still manages to be mean, irresponsible and stupid? I'd hate to see what she was like healthy.
Actually she's not mean at all. She's exceedingly pleasant. Eerily so.

[Mouse_Maven]

Actually she's not mean at all. She's exceedingly pleasant. Eerily so.

I apologize. I jumped to the conclusion that she was mean. Sorry. :o

[SnakesCatLady]

I think the only thing you personally can do is refuse to give her money. If you try to say anything and she plays the "but I'm dying" card, it's going to make you feel like a first class bitch for having brought it up, and you don't need the guilt. If it comes to the point of utilities getting shut off, you could pay the bill, but don't give her money she's just going to waste.

You reported her relatives have said she's been selfish all of her life. I guess some people don't change when they're facing the end. All of the people I've known who were facing death refused to spend any money if they could possibly help it.

[ivylass]

And before you say anything, I talked to her son about taking complete control of her finances, and she won't give it up.

If she can be declared incompetent, she won't have a say in the matter.

[Kalhoun]

I think the only thing you personally can do is refuse to give her money. If you try to say anything and she plays the "but I'm dying" card, it's going to make you feel like a first class bitch for having brought it up, and you don't need the guilt. If it comes to the point of utilities getting shut off, you could pay the bill, but don't give her money she's just going to waste.

You reported her relatives have said she's been selfish all of her life. I guess some people don't change when they're facing the end. All of the people I've known who were facing death refused to spend any money if they could possibly help it.
That's what I would do. Retain as much as possible for the heirs. Geez...my only priority would be to leave something for Kid Kalhoun.

[Kalhoun]

If she can be declared incompetent, she won't have a say in the matter.
I don't think that's possible. She can be declared "inconsiderate" but I don't think that's a legal status. ;)

[Kalhoun]

I've tried to slip it into conversation that none of that matters, but she says she likes it and she wants to have it. It's like whatever you say, she says, "How do you think I feel? I'm dying!" And then we'll take all the crap she buys and give it to Goodwill.

[ShelliBean]

Also, I'm dying to know what her credit card bill looks like. I'm not entirely comfortable with the fact that she could be ordering stuff that won't show up on anyone's radar until she's dead and leaves a giant bill.


Sounds like you all have a big "fuck you" coming from beyond the grave.
I'm in a less charitible mood this afternoon. Cut her off. Soothe yourself by buying her groceries if you need to.

[Q.N. Jones]

Why don't you just suggest to her that, instead of borrowing money from relatives, that she should get some credit cards and run them up? It will help preserve the peace in your family, and then when it comes time to settle her estate, her creditors can take what's left over, and that will be that. It might not sound too moral to you, but credit card issuers willingly assume this sort of risk.

[Kalhoun]

Why don't you just suggest to her that, instead of borrowing money from relatives, that she should get some credit cards and run them up? It will help preserve the peace in your family, and then when it comes time to settle her estate, her creditors can take what's left over, and that will be that. It might not sound too moral to you, but credit card issuers willingly assume this sort of risk.
I've thought of that, and she does have at least one card. Who knows what that looks like. But there's something about that that doesn't sit right with me. We're not talking about survival. We're talking about "Bora Bora" bath powder and ugly-ass sheet sets (how many can you really need?). It's more that I don't want to actively condone it, even though I know it's none of my business.

[alphaboi867]

I've thought of that, and she does have at least one card. Who knows what that looks like. But there's something about that that doesn't sit right with me. We're not talking about survival. We're talking about "Bora Bora" bath powder and ugly-ass sheet sets (how many can you really need?). It's more that I don't want to actively condone it, even though I know it's none of my business.
Having her run up a big(er) credit card is a problem if you want to preserve her estate. The company can always go after her estate.

[Q.N. Jones]

Having her run up a big(er) credit card is a problem if you want to preserve her estate. The company can always go after her estate.

If she's doing a reverse mortgage, the plan is to run down her estate to care for her. The question is, how fast can she afford to spend it down? I don't think Kalhoun is saying that they're worried about the relatives getting an inheritance.

The credit card solution doesn't quite sit right with me either. But neither does having a huge family bust-up with a dying woman. I don't see any really good options here.

[Nava]

At times, she was the most generous person you'd ever meet. As I said, she's buying gifts for everyone who helped her.

That's not "being generous". It's "buying affection".

I understand and commend you for trying to do your best... but don't let her drag you down. One of the mightiest tactics of manipulative people is secrecy: "don't tell your brother I gave you $5, he could get jealous" (and of course the other brother gets the same money and the same instructions). If omerta hadn't existed, people like that would have had to invent it. You may be able to break the ring of secrecy; my mother and her sister call each other regularly just to fill each other in on all the things their parents have told each of them "not to tell the other". That's avoided a lot of the bad blood which my grandparents used to be able to generate between both sisters for decades.

[ivylass]

[b]Kalhoun[/]b, is it possible the drugs are affecting her reasoning capabilities? Maybe her meds need to be adjusted.

[Kalhoun]

[b]Kalhoun[/]b, is it possible the drugs are affecting her reasoning capabilities? Maybe her meds need to be adjusted.
It's entirely possible. Last report was 500 mg methadone every four hours, 30 mg of morphine every hour for breakthrough pain. The visiting nurse said she's amazed she's not unconscious from it. She rarely sleeps. She attributes that to wanting to participate in every minute of her remaining life.

I saw her Friday. She's very confused. She thought one of her other sisters was there (she's in Arizona). Then her not-so-distant son came an hour after we left and she told him we were there the day before.

The hardest part (aside from the sadness she must be feeling in her last days) is that my MIL has to watch a third child die. That's just not right. She's also lost her husband, brother, and sister-in-law in the last 3 years. Plus a grandson in '99. Nope...it's just not right.

[Contrapuntal]

Would you loan a dying person money for purchasing crap that is unnecessary?No. I would simply say "I'm sorry, I can't help you right now." Repeat as needed.


Would you try to discuss the underlying issues that appear to be the motivation behind it? No. Pissing in the wind.


Would you tell her you'll only loan her money for necessities?No. I would arrange to provide necessities, if possible.


Would you tell her off as you would a perfectly healthy friend/sibling who was doing the same thing?No, since she is terminal. If she were severley ill but not terminal, probably.

[Cervaise]

It's like whatever you say, she says, "How do you think I feel? I'm dying!"So what if she's dying? We're all dying, every day. You, me, everybody. The moment we're born, we start to die. The only difference here is that her death will arrive faster than the average. If anything, that obligates her to live her live better, not worse, because so many people will be left behind when she's gone. Cut her off.