How bout them Yankees?

[if6was9]

Lost an embarrassing series against Detroit, and now it's TORRE's fault! (http://proxy.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2617224) MWAHAHAHAHAHAH! What a bunch of maroons! Is there something in the water up in NY? Or just a buncha st00pid people? :dubious:

[Stratocaster]

It's somebody's fault. For all the circus-like distractions Steinbrenner has created in years gone by, I would not fault him here. You have the highest payroll by far in MLB, and two years in a row you're dumped in the first round, and the year before that you lose a 3-game-to-none lead in a series? Sorry, I'd want something more for my $200M.

I like Joe Torre and think he has deserved a lot of the credit for NY's success. But what has he done for George lately? With a stacked line-up like that, isn't it natural for Georgie-boy to ask WTF? 3 runs over the last 2 games, including Posada's meaningless homer in the ninth yesterday? The production they got out of some of their big hitters?

Yeah, it's fair to ask, what is Joe supposed to do, bat for them? It's also fair to ask how such an under-performing team (in the playoffs, which is all that counts to the Yankees) would have reacted to a Lou Piniella. Joe has always been rightly lauded for his even-keeled, calm approach. Well, what if it's an apparently undriven, complacent team that needs a kick in the ass? And I do believe that sometimes a change is needed for change's sake, even if the manager isn't the principal fault. It shakes up a dead-ass group, sends a message, makes it clear that change has to occur.

I love baseball. It's almost as much fun to talk and speculate about it as it is to watch it. This should get real interestin'.

[Threadkiller]

It's somebody's fault. For all the circus-like distractions Steinbrenner has created in years gone by, I would not fault him here. You have the highest payroll by far in MLB, and two years in a row you're dumped in the first round, and the year before that you lose a 3-game-to-none lead in a series? Sorry, I'd want something more for my $200M...I don't think George gets off the hook so easily. Sure he was less of a distraction this year (and as an avid Yankee Hater, I miss the old days) but the personnel decisions over the past few years have been...odd. This lands on Cashman's lap but he has been a yes man to The Boss for so long how can it not be his fault?

They pay WAY too much for pitching seamingly under the asumption: 'He had a great career, let's sign him to an overpriced long-term contract.' This worked with Roger Clemens but sure hasn't since then:
The Big Unit?...too old and broken down for a post season push
Kevin Brown?...Had serious health issues before he even arrived

I could go on.

In short you have to ask the question: Are these guys even worth $200M? I would say no.

[Laughing Lagomorph]

The thing that gets me is something many, many baseball writers have pointed out over the last few years: lately they have mostly concentrated on big name free agent aquisitions. But the teams they had real success with, in the late 90s, were not built that way. They mostly came up through the Yankees farm system. Those teams were built on good pitching and timely hitting, not over the hill starters and free-agent bashers.

They need to get back to the formula they historically had success with. I like Joe Torre but at this point I wouldn't be too sad if he was gone. I could see Pinella, or maybe Joe Girardi, stepping in.

I wouldn't be a bit surprised if A-Rod wasn't on the team by spring training. But for the love of all that is sacred, please don't try to acquire Manny Ramirez.

[silenus]

A-Rod will waive his no-trade clause by the middle of the off-season. I wonder if the Dodgers can make a play for him? But there will definitely be a new look to everything come spring training. New manager, a few new faces....but $5 says they make the same mistakes, and all the new guys are big-ticket stars at the end of their careers.

[Cheesesteak]

The Yankees have the lowest price/performance ratio in the league, they pay full market value, or higher, for 90% of their players. There are maybe 2-3 guys on the entire team who are young up and comers with cheap contracts. Teams like the the A's and Tigers are probably built the other way around.

When they started winning, they had young guys from the farm system, and a few key role players filling in the rest. Now, there are almost no young guys, and everyone is a high priced free agent.

I do think they did a very nice job getting to the playoffs this year, after losing three big bats out of the lineup for extended periods. But with everyone healthy, their performance just stunk something fierce.

They definitely need a new strategy for pitching, all of these ancient hurlers just depress me. I like most of their position players, though I'd get rid of Giambi and Sheffield at least, and A-Rod doesn't seem suited for the team, as much as it pains me to say.

I would also not exactly shed a tear if someone else was managing next year.

[What Exit?]

So why is this in IMHO instead of the pit? Heck of an op there. Are Yankee fans not suppose to take offense?

Torre may or may not be fired, the team probably needs a change, there is a great candidate out there currently, Sweet Lou Pinella. Torre is an average at best field manager. This has hurt the Yankees many times in the post season. His great value is dealing with the club house of superstars, Steinbrenner and the Media. Ironically, he did a great job this year getting the Yanks through the season without so many players and the ultimate problem is the lack of Aces in their prime. But Torre might take the fall and it might be the best thing for the team. Most of the Coaches would probably stay for Lou. Mattingly, Bowa and Guidry are friends.
The biggest worry I have as a Yankee fan is that Cashman loses the power he finally got, he has a long range plan to get the Yanks off the Superstar free agent road to disaster and back to development and trades supplemented by free agents.

Jim

[What Exit?]

In short you have to ask the question: Are these guys even worth $200M? I would say no.
Agreed they are not, you forgot to include Wright and Pavano and Farnsworth.
All poorly thought out recent acquisitions. We went after Sheffield instead of Vlad or Beltran last year. We then grabbed the aging Damon who will look overpaid in another year. A-rod was not a bad decision, it just has worked out well in the post season, but it was hard to know that before the trade.
The Yankees have been throwing away money for years now. They are finally trying to get back on course. Now it is up to George. This brings me to silenus' post.
A-Rod will waive his no-trade clause by the middle of the off-season. I wonder if the Dodgers can make a play for him? But there will definitely be a new look to everything come spring training. New manager, a few new faces....but $5 says they make the same mistakes, and all the new guys are big-ticket stars at the end of their careers.
If the Dodgers or Angels or someone else could offer up a really good young Ace the Yankees should seriously consider it. We need Starters not offense right now. The Yanks could get by with a good defensive Third Baseman with all the other offense.

Jim

[samclem]

Lost an embarrassing series against Detroit, and now it's TORRE's fault! (http://proxy.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2617224) MWAHAHAHAHAHAH! What a bunch of maroons! Is there something in the water up in NY? Or just a buncha st00pid people? :dubious:
Moderator note. I have to agree that your OP was a rant and belongs in the Pit, but so far most of the posters are expressing opinions of what's wrong, what may happen, etc.

So, let's everyone keep the bashing to a minimum. At least keep it within the confines of IMHO.

samclem

[silenus]

If the Dodgers or Angels or someone else could offer up a really good young Ace the Yankees should seriously consider it. We need Starters not offense right now. The Yanks could get by with a good defensive Third Baseman with all the other offense.


Well, the Dodgers have a plethora of good, young pitchers. It's been our strong point all year. We wouldn't be searching for a third-baseman if Mueller hadn't gotten crunched. But with him gone and Nomar hurting, we need some hitting at the corners. I don't know what the Dodgers have coming up in the minors. If we have some talent there, it might be worth it to trade away some of the bullpen and a starter or two for A-Rod. I know he'd get a better reception out here than he has gotten in NYC.

[What Exit?]

Well, the Dodgers have a plethora of good, young pitchers. It's been our strong point all year. We wouldn't be searching for a third-baseman if Mueller hadn't gotten crunched. But with him gone and Nomar hurting, we need some hitting at the corners. I don't know what the Dodgers have coming up in the minors. If we have some talent there, it might be worth it to trade away some of the bullpen and a starter or two for A-Rod. I know he'd get a better reception out here than he has gotten in NYC.
The LA teams seem very logical, I actually hope they pursue the trade. The Dodger's have the players to trade, the need for A-rod and the Media base to get him to waive his no-trade. As the Ranger's already are paying a big chunk of his salary, the Yankees probably will not have to throw much cash in. Should be a good Hot stove season. Shame you and I are already sitting near the Hot Stove. Ideally we would have had the two teams in the World Series. Maybe next year.

Jim

[Stratocaster]

A-Rod in Philly next year. Hmm. Fills in the hole at third base, puts a big right-handed stick behind Ryan Howard, and though Philadelphia fans are not known for their benevolent patience, I think there would be a different yardstick. NY is looking for their 27th WS championship, and expect their stars to produce BIG and on demand. 35 homers and 125 RBIs the year after you won an MVP? In Philly they'd be naming high schools after him. The Phils just want to get in the playoffs for the first time in what will be 14 years. I think the burden would be a little less crushing.

And I'm not sure he'd be getting much more than we had been paying Bobby Abreu. Hmm.

[Least Original User Name Ever]

A-Rod in Philly next year. Hmm. Fills in the hole at third base, puts a big right-handed stick behind Ryan Howard, and though Philadelphia fans are not known for their benevolent patience, I think there would be a different yardstick. NY is looking for their 27th WS championship, and expect their stars to produce BIG and on demand. 35 homers and 125 RBIs the year after you won an MVP? In Philly they'd be naming high schools after him. The Phils just want to get in the playoffs for the first time in what will be 14 years. I think the burden would be a little less crushing.

And I'm not sure he'd be getting much more than we had been paying Bobby Abreu. Hmm.
If he wants to deal Mr. Rodriguez, I'd happily take him if and only if George ate a massive chunk of his payroll. That should test him to see how badly he wants to unload him. (Not that other suitors won't pop up...but if you have the pieces to make it work, the Yankees are not holding the cards.)

[Stratocaster]

If he wants to deal Mr. Rodriguez, I'd happily take him if and only if George ate a massive chunk of his payroll. That should test him to see how badly he wants to unload him. (Not that other suitors won't pop up...but if you have the pieces to make it work, the Yankees are not holding the cards.)What's he getting paid? $18M? That's about $4M more than Abreu, right?

Anyway, you might be right as far as how to negotiate it, but I suspect there will be some club willing to pay "full price." I'd love him on my Phils.

[What Exit?]

If he wants to deal Mr. Rodriguez, I'd happily take him if and only if George ate a massive chunk of his payroll. That should test him to see how badly he wants to unload him. (Not that other suitors won't pop up...but if you have the pieces to make it work, the Yankees are not holding the cards.)
Keep dreaming and enjoy the championship round. The Yankees have no need to trade him with a lot of money. He is still a great player, just not a great fit in NY.
He will need a big market to waive his contract, the team will need a great young starter and some prospects. Detroit has the pitchers, but I do not know if they have the payroll and I know they do not have the market. Additionally, I do not think a slugger would want to go to that park.

Stratocaster, my contract sites are down right now, but I think he goes up to $19 next year and Bobby goes to $16.

Jim

[Jackknifed Juggernaut]

A caller into WFAN's Mike Francesa show this morning said it best:

"The blueprint to draw 4 million fans isn't the same as the blueprint to win a World Series."

I'm a lifelong Yankee fan and I think Torre's firing is at least 2 years too late. He should've been out after the loss to the Marlins, or at the very latest, the choke to the Red Sox.

[pseudotriton ruber ruber]

You think he's a good field manager? I think he's a superb manager of delicate personalities, a good long-range conceptual thinker, a good influence and a good delegator, but since Don Zimmer left (as another of Francesa's callers noted), I think he's been exposed as an in-game dunce.

[What Exit?]

You think he's a good field manager? I think he's a superb manager of delicate personalities, a good long-range conceptual thinker, a good influence and a good delegator, but since Don Zimmer left (as another of Francesa's callers noted), I think he's been exposed as an in-game dunce.
Who said he was a good Field Manager? I did not see anyone say that.

[ElvisL1ves]

The Yankees have no need to trade him with a lot of money. He is still a great player, just not a great fit in NY.
Seattle actually got better when he left. So did Texas. This Sox fan is happy to let him stay in NY, and would be even happier if the Yanks dumped the best manager this group could possibly have.

But their roster is too old and their pitching is too thin, sure. The Sox can at least blame injuries, but their crop of youngsters is promising even if it no longer includes Hanley Ramirez or Anibal Sanchez or Freddie Sanchez or Cla Meredith or Josh Bard or Andy Marte, or maybe even Jon Lester. The Yankees have to rebuild around Robinson Cano and Melky Cabrera. Not quite so easy.

[pseudotriton ruber ruber]

Who said he was a good Field Manager? I did not see anyone say that.

I'm just saying...if he's a not a good in-game manager, and his team looks disoriented and unmotivated, there's very little upside to keeping him, isn;t there?

[What Exit?]

As long as this turned to hot stove:
Many papers are supporting the idea that Torre is history and Pinella will be signed.

Would the Angels give up Santana and Figgins or Santana and 24 year old rookie catcher Mike Napoli for A-Rod? The Yanks would probably toss in 1-4 million per year and ask for a pair of single A prospects.
Santana would become the Yanks 2 or 3 starter and Figgins would play 3B or Napoli would start the process of taking over for the aging Posada. We would get younger in two positions and they would have the scary bat to go with Vlad.

The Yanks should let Sheffield and Moose walk. Sheffield is a free team option and Moose is only a 1.5 Million payout.
We might as well keep Wright, he cost 7 to keep or 4 to go. Keeping him effectively cost 3 million and then use him as a long guy/Emergency starter or minor trade.
We should even look into trading one of the following vets, some will seem shocking: Giambi (2 years to go), Abreu at $16 next year, Godzilla at $13 per year for 3 more years or Damon at $13 per year for 3 more years.

Yankees should be in the Zito sweepstakes, we could look into trading for Hudson from Atlanta, no clue how feasible this is, Andy Pettite or Ted Lilly would be good fall backs if Zito and Hudson fall through.

OK, tear me apart.

On Preview: I agree pseudotriton ruber ruber, it is time for him to go. I want Sweet Lou.

Jim

[silenus]

A-Rod would be a good fit in Anaheim. The Angels will be doing some substantial shuffling on the off season, and they've shown that they are willing to spend money if needs must. I'd rather see him in LA, but I don't know what the long-term prog is on Mueller.

[MLS]

.

Yankees should be in the Zito sweepstakes, we could look into trading for Hudson from Atlanta, no clue how feasible this is, Andy Pettite or Ted Lilly would be good fall backs if Zito and Hudson fall through.

OK, tear me apart.

Jim
We had Pettite and we had Lilly. Pettite should have been kept, but no way he should return. Lilly was a disaster. We need, as others have said, new, young pitchers, not veterans hoping to eke out a few more seasons. Randy Johnson is the poster boy for that idea. Notice that Wells and Clemens, two other ex-Yankees, did not do their teams all that much good this year. Pitching is what let us down last year, and it's what let us down again this year. The much beloved Mariano Rivera is not what he used to be either, and I don't see an understudy in the wings.

IMHO, Torre is not to blame for the unfortunate state of the bullpen.

[ElvisL1ves]

Would the Angels give up Santana and Figgins or Santana and 24 year old rookie catcher Mike Napoli for A-Rod?Why would they? They know they need young pitching, too.

they would have the scary bat to go with Vlad. There are plenty of other scary bats available that would cost less money and carry less baggage. Manny, for instance. :D

We should even look into trading one of the following vets, some will seem shocking: Giambi (2 years to go), Abreu at $16 next year, Godzilla at $13 per year for 3 more years or Damon at $13 per year for 3 more years. Are the Yanks going to pay half or more of those salaries as part of the deal? Can they actually get people who will help more for the next few years even if they do? Who's going to make those deals, either?

Yankees should be in the Zito sweepstakesGeorge will insist on that.

[What Exit?]

We had Pettite and we had Lilly. Pettite should have been kept, but no way he should return. Lilly was a disaster. We need, as others have said, new, young pitchers, not veterans hoping to eke out a few more seasons. Randy Johnson is the poster boy for that idea. Notice that Wells and Clemens, two other ex-Yankees, did not do their teams all that much good this year. Pitching is what let us down last year, and it's what let us down again this year. The much beloved Mariano Rivera is not what he used to be either, and I don't see an understudy in the wings.

IMHO, Torre is not to blame for the unfortunate state of the bullpen.
If we do not bring back Moose, and we should not, we need to get some starters in. Zito may be very hard to get, the rest of the free agent crop is nothing special.
We should try to get Santana from the Angels, as he is only 23. We have Hughes coming up, we have 1 more season of Johnson. If we do not get Zito, Andy or Lilly should be acceptable and relatively cheap stopgaps. Tell be the young ace besides Zito on the Free agent market. This is why trading A-Rod might be the best thing for us.

There is no replacement for Mo, but Bruney might actually be capable of being a good closer in 2 years and he is only 25 now. Mo was 27 when he got going.
No guarantees, but a least a possibility. Between Darrell Rasner {age 25}, Jose Veras {25}, Jeff Karstens {24} and T.J. Beam{25} we might have some 5 starters and/or bullpen help from within.

Study the Yankees, it is not as bleak as it looks, we just need to ease up on the 34+ year old free agents. Andy is a special exception; he is one of our own.
What do you think Lilly would cost us? I think 3 year at around 5-7 per year. He would make a competent 3-4 guy I think.

Jim

[What Exit?]

Why would they? They know they need young pitching, too.

There are plenty of other scary bats available that would cost less money and carry less baggage. Manny, for instance. :D

Are the Yanks going to pay half or more of those salaries as part of the deal? Can they actually get people who will help more for the next few years even if they do? Who's going to make those deals, either?

George will insist on that.
I did not catch this on preview:
1: The story about Santana was mentioned nationally, it did not come from me, I would jump on it however.

2: A-Rod only carries baggage with the Yanks, Manny's baggage is huge and heavy and you would be trading for an older player with only one year left. A-Rod is generally considered by GMs to be the #2 player in baseball after Albert Pujols.

3: I have no clue on the 4 vets, Giambi would require a huge amount of money, Abreu would probably only take 3-5 million at a guess. Matsui and Damon might not take as much. The Trade inquiries should be made, I am not suggesting it will be easy or possible.

4: Sad but true, I am afraid he will be given a stupidly long and large contract.

[Cheesesteak]

Lilly was a disaster. I always thought we should have kept Lilly. Didn't we trade him for Jeff Weaver? Lilly has been an above 500 pitcher for pretty average teams, he's a slightly above average starter. Is there something wrong with having a durable, young, average pitcher in the 4 or 5 slot? Look at the screwups we've had there since he's been gone.

The Lilly trade is indicative of everything that's gone wrong with this team. Trade a decent young pitcher who has a very reasonable contract for Jeff Weaver, who was supposedly some super-stud pitcher paid millions of dollars, who turned out to be worse than the guy you gave up. Then you spend the next few years with one lousy stopgap player after another, each of them paid millions.

[What Exit?]

Crap, I am not thinking clearly. If Torre is really gone and Pinella is really in than A-Rod has another chance in pinstripes. Jon Heyman made the point:
There has never been any other alternative to Torre than Piniella, a Steinbrenner favorite who brings the necessary credibility, the opposite personality of Torre and a prime hope to rescue Alex Rodriguez, a longtime protégé of Piniella's.
So the Yanks will have to try to find a young pitcher some other way. I thought I had a decent plan and a way to start shaving some money off the payroll, but this will not do it. They (George) will give Lou a chance to straighten out Alex.
Very good article by the way (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/writers/jon_heyman/10/08/torre.reax/index.html). This is why he gets paid to conjecture and I post at a message board. ;)

I think Cheesesteak is 100% correct about Lilly and the rest.

Jim

[RickJay]

Speaking as a Blue Jays fan, I really, really hope they fire Torre and hire Piniella. I will enjoy watching the Yankee dynasty collapse. Sure will be good for my team.

Playoffs are as much luck as anything else. In 11 seasons as manager, Torre has made the playoffs every years and won the Series 4 times. His career playoff record is 75-44. That's an awesome, awesome playoff record. The fact that the wins clusted a bit more in 1996-2000 than 2001-2006 is as likely as not just random chance, and if anyhting else it's the fact that Torre is having to work with successively older pitching staffs who're tired when October rolls around.

[Airman Doors, USAF]

Torre may or may not be fired, the team probably needs a change, there is a great candidate out there currently, Sweet Lou Pinella. Torre is an average at best field manager.

Wow. The guy is the best manager you guys have had since Billy, or maybe even Stengel, and you bust him down because he can't turn chicken shit into chicken salad. Unbelievable.

By the way, you guys already had Sweet Lou Pinella. What did he do for you? 2nd, 4th and 5th respectively. Yeah, that's a guy I'd want back. He hasn't even sniffed the Series since 1990.

[Least Original User Name Ever]

Wow. The guy is the best manager you guys have had since Billy, or maybe even Stengel, and you bust him down because he can't turn chicken shit into chicken salad. Unbelievable.

By the way, you guys already had Sweet Lou Pinella. What did he do for you? 2nd, 4th and 5th respectively. Yeah, that's a guy I'd want back. He hasn't even sniffed the Series since 1990.


Eeeeeexactly my point. Lou won't end up being the answer, friend of the George or no friend. The correct answer is "Larry Bowa". At LEAST he'll be a stopgap that everyone knows that he's a stopgap until the next manager.

[asterion]

Wow. The guy is the best manager you guys have had since Billy, or maybe even Stengel, and you bust him down because he can't turn chicken shit into chicken salad. Unbelievable.

I don't get the whole fire the manager thing either. The Yankees spend a lot of money to buy older stars, have little to no young talent, and have had pitching problems for years now. The only way I can see it being Torre's fault is if he had real control over hiring.

[asterion]

And I don't follow the Yankees that closely. Did Torre have real control over the players coming in?

[Cheesesteak]

Wow. The guy is the best manager you guys have had since Billy, or maybe even Stengel, and you bust him down because he can't turn chicken shit into chicken salad. Unbelievable.This group of players is chicken shit? By what possible definition? Every playoff for the last 6 years has ended in disappointment, and the owner has paid a kings ransom to get the best players possible each year.

Torre won 4 times with very good players, and that makes him the best of all managers, he loses 6 times and it's not his fault. I think it's correct to say managers get too much credit and too much fault, but you have to give him credit AND fault in the same amount, regardless.

[WordMan]

Great point made on ESPN radio this morning driving in. The biggest thing the Yankees lacked in the playoffs was the drive to go the extra mile. Watching Kenny Rogers - a pitcher I typically think little of - pitch the game of his life and pump his fist the whole time, emotional to the point of tears - and you could tell they wanted it a whole lot more.

So, to me, the question is: what would it take for the Yankees to want it a whole lot more? IMHO, having Cano, Melky and Abreu brought fire in the belly to the team.

Will replacing Torre? Personally, I think if he was replaced with Girardi - a guy famous for having fire in his belly and not wanting to let his teammates down - then it might work. As for Sweet Lou, I don't know enough of his details - he sure as hell did a great job with the Mariners, but never took them all the way...

- Go after pitching
- Lose some all stars and keep the young hungry players
- consider a manager change - to Girardi...

My $.02...

[BobLibDem]

I think the time has come for George to dust off the ax and let it swing. Torre had a great run, but it really is time for him to step aside. Bring in Pinella and the reign of Louis II.

What is wrong?

1- Middle relief. Rivera is still a great pitcher, getting to him is the problem. A carousel of journeymen pitchers at best.

2- Starting pitching. Johnson is showing his age. Beyond Mussina and Wang, the cupboard is pretty bare.

3- Too much outfield talent. Abreu, Cabrerra, Damon, Matsui, Sheffield, Williams. Except for Williams, any could start anywhere else. Trade one for a picther.

4- K Rod. Great player when it doesn't matter, and poison in the clubhouse.

[What Exit?]

Wow. The guy is the best manager you guys have had since Billy, or maybe even Stengel, and you bust him down because he can't turn chicken shit into chicken salad. Unbelievable.

By the way, you guys already had Sweet Lou Pinella. What did he do for you? 2nd, 4th and 5th respectively. Yeah, that's a guy I'd want back. He hasn't even sniffed the Series since 1990.
Time for a change, even Stengel & McCarthy got fired. Billy was fired enough to be a sad joke.
Torre had the option of not playing Sheffield, instead Sheff was suddenly playing first. Torre had the option of playing the team that won all the games. This would have meant playing Melky over the vet. Torre had the option of having a much quicker hook in the elimination game with Wright. He sat there fiddling.
Despite the obvious fact the Farnsworth was another over-rated over-payed reliever, Torre kept using him as the primary setup guy all year when Proctor was obviously better and Bruney had appeared better. He blew out Villone with overuse and tried his hardest to blowout Proctor.
Do we need to talk about the Red Sox debacle?
Do we need to talk about the loss to the Marlins?

BtW WordMan: Girardi would be a good choice, but when it comes to fire in the Belly, only Pete Rose has more fire in the Belly than Lou Pinella.

Jim

[Cheesesteak]

Oooooooh, Girardi.... I forgot that he's looking for a job. If anything, it would be great for the back pages.

[Trunk]

I tend to agree with RickJay here. There is a lot of luck involved in the playoffs. What the Yanks should lobby for is for 7 game series throughout the playoffs.

That said. . .my rooting interests have just diminished 50%. The Yanks losing is the world series for me. Now, I'll root for Detroit because I like them, but not as hard as I would root against the yanks in every series.

And seeing A-Rod go 1-14, and get moved to eighth -- fucking EIGHTH -- in the order was just so pleasing. There are occasional stories that end the way you want them in sports. This is one. A team trounced by a team with a third of it's payroll, none of the big name stars. Two big name pitchers getting beat. I just love it.

[WordMan]

BtW WordMan: Girardi would be a good choice, but when it comes to fire in the Belly, only Pete Rose has more fire in the Belly than Lou Pinella.


Obviously, sir, I agree. The question is whether that fire burns a bit too hot. Piniella, like Bowa and Billy Martin, seemed to subvert their own leadership skills with their passion - they fight and scrap with their own players and get in so much pain when they lose that it castes a shadow - not a good managerial trait. I get the impression that Girardi burns hot like a Marine - he channels it into discipline and esprit de corps...

[Wee Bairn]

I would hardly call All-Stars at every position "chicken shit". It is the manager's job to get the most out of the talent he has, and Torre just hasn't done that lately. Also, he's too much of a nice guy. The Yankees need a hard ass like Pinella to step in who won't coddle high paid pussies like A-Rod. There were times that he should have been benched, and Torre just wouldn't do that- Pinella would. Bernie Williams should have been dumped two years ago, but Torre wouldn't do that to him. But I also agree that it isn't Torre's fault totally that the GM goes out and gets aging former superstars. They need to get good young players, not good old players.

[What Exit?]

I would hardly call All-Stars at every position "chicken shit". It is the manager's job to get the most out of the talent he has, and Torre just hasn't done that lately. Also, he's too much of a nice guy. The Yankees need a hard ass like Pinella to step in who won't coddle high paid pussies like A-Rod. There were times that he should have been benched, and Torre just wouldn't do that- Pinella would. Bernie Williams should have been dumped two years ago, but Torre wouldn't do that to him. But I also agree that it isn't Torre's fault totally that the GM goes out and gets aging former superstars. They need to get good young players, not good old players.
Not the GM's fault either. The Yankees have suffered over the last 7 years until this year with a 5 headed monster on personal decisions. Getting Jason Giambi & Johnson were Steinbrenner demands. There are many examples like this. Cashman finally got control of the team this year and is try to protect and rebuild the farm system. We will see if his one year in control will be retained. He is a good GM, that has been hamstrung for years.

Jim

[Cheesesteak]

And seeing A-Rod go 1-14, and get moved to eighth -- fucking EIGHTH -- in the order was just so pleasing. Can anyone explain this to me? What is with the hatred of A-Rod?

Here's a guy who is marvelously talented, seems like a decent enough fellow, even if he puts his foot in is mouth occasionally. Some stupid owner decided to throw a quarter of a billion dollars his way, now we're holding A-Rod up to that as if anyone could justify that money. Who among us would decline to sign a guaranteed contract that big? For Og's sake, the guy was willing to take a pay cut to join the Red Sox, the Commish tanked the deal, and Sox fans boo him whenever he takes the field. :confused:

He even agreed to change positions, from a place where he was earning gold glove after gold glove, so that the yankees trade could happen, and we boo him when he makes an error at his new position. Classy.

I can understand being pissed off that he's not performing the way he's capable, but taking glee in his failures seems out of place.

[Cheesesteak]

Oops, on the Red Sox thing, maybe it was the Union that tanked the deal, not the Commish...

[What Exit?]

Can anyone explain this to me? What is with the hatred of A-Rod?
...snip...
I can understand being pissed off that he's not performing the way he's capable, but taking glee in his failures seems out of place.
All valid points, but I believe Trunk is a Yankee Hater. He does not need to be rational in his hatred.

[Trunk]

It is about the money.

It's barely about A-Rod personally. What's pleasing is seeing that Steinbrenner and the GM figured they could address a shortcoming by getting the most expensive player in history and then seeing that strategy fail miserably.

The more scorn that is heaped upon his failure to rescue the Yanks, the better for the game in the long run.

Then, there's always the A-Rod swipe play against the Red Sox.

The "they don't like me because I"m beautiful" quote.

The fact that he's really just a shell of a boring human being.

Really, it's just glee that the Yanks and the money, and the foremost symbol of that money end up looking like chumps. You might not be able to get what it feels like to root for a team that has ZERO chance of competing every single year because of the existence of the yanks. I mean ZERO chance. To know that anyone that shines in the league will wind up in your division, on a team that you'll play 20 times per year.

I don't think Yankees fans get what it means when we hear that every player in the line-up has been on an all star team in their career. We wonder how it could be fun. . .that a team isn't put together "the right way", but instead, just constructed of every single player who wanted to take Steinbrenner's money.

There is simply no indignity that I wouldn't wish against them. I pretty much consider the collapse of the Yankees in 04 against the Red Sox the greatest sports story in my life.

And, A-Rod, because of the money, encapsulates a lot of that.

[Jackknifed Juggernaut]

The problem with A-Rod is that stuff gets into his head, and he suffers. He doesn't have the natural ability to "shrug it off", which is basically required in New York. Yankee fans have always hated him due to the Jeter-Nomar-Rodriguez rivalry, and never really give him a chance. They spent years arguing why Jeter was the best shortstop, and didn't let it go once A-Rod got here. It's not as if they were winning in the years prior to his arrival. Let's not forget the D-Back series, the Angels series and the Marlins debacle. And in reality, A-Rod was the ultimate team player. I'm a Yankee fan and love Jeter, but if anyone should've been moved away from shortstop, it should have been Jeter. Rodriguez was a better defensive shortstop, and possibly the best and most complete shortstop in the history of baseball. Torre didn't have the balls to make that decision, just as he didn't have the balls to sit Sheffield this series. Torre spends too much brain power in making everyone happy. We need a shaker upper.

I, for one, don't understand why Red Sox fans hate A-Rod so much. After all, he was willing to take a pay cut to go to Boston. How many of today's players would be willing to take an actual pay cut (not deferred comp, but a real cut in pay)? The player's union didn't allow it.

[Count Blucher]

Moderator note. I have to agree that your OP was a rant and belongs in the Pit, but so far most of the posters are expressing opinions of what's wrong, what may happen, etc.

So, let's everyone keep the bashing to a minimum. At least keep it within the confines of IMHO.

samclem


Just re-reading a fine Mod post. I think it was made because bitterness wouldn't be constructive or in keeping with the vast majority of the well-reasoned, enlightened and humble opinions that have been expressed so far in this thread...

but perhaps thats just my opinion. :D

[brianjedi]

I just love that ESPN has already written Torre's baseball obituary when they haven't even fired him yet.

If they hire Sweet Lou, A-Rod stays. If it's Showalter, A-Rod's on the next bus out of town.

[What Exit?]

I just love that ESPN has already written Torre's baseball obituary when they haven't even fired him yet.

If they hire Sweet Lou, A-Rod stays. If it's Showalter, A-Rod's on the next bus out of town.
I doubt it will be Buck. I would guess the list would start with Pinella then go through Joe Girardi and Mazilli.

I am trying to remember, doesn't George have to wait until after the World Series to announce the firing and hiring if it happens?

I am also wondering is Lou Pinella as a Cuban-American counts towards the leagues minority hiring interview policy, or will George get a fine for hiring him without interviewing anyone else?

Jim

[Tazmanian Devil]

I just love that ESPN has already written Torre's baseball obituary when they haven't even fired him yet.

If they hire Sweet Lou, A-Rod stays. If it's Showalter, A-Rod's on the next bus out of town.

NOT heading for St. Louis, hopefully.

[zamboniracer]

It's somebody's fault.


I am not picking on you Stratocaster, but it is baseball, and sometimes in a short series the best team doesn't win and it is nobody's fault. It happens all the time, as for example when the Royals beat up the Tigers the last weekend of the season.

[D_Odds]

The NY Post is reporting that Joe Torre will stay. Sports is the only thing I might trust The Post to get right. According to The Post, Torre will be informed before his end-of-season speech.

Let's see how much room on the leash Cashman has this year. Their outfield is set for another 3-5 years. They can even make Hideki Matsui a first baseman - this works as I'd like to see Jason Giambi and Gary Sheffield wearing new uniforms next year. There's also no reason to bring back Randy Johnson, but that means that the Yankees will need to exercise Mike Mussina's option. They should call Rivera and Proctor aside, then exectue the rest of the bullpen. Jared Wright and Cory Lidle can be their middle relief; Carl Pavano can keep them company if he ever pitches again. Sadly, that leaves 3 slots in the starting staff. If Steinbrenner has a say, they'll sadly chase old pitching...again. They should be loading up on young pitchers, and they should also be looking for their next closer and catcher. As disgusted as I was with A-Rod's collapse in the clutch all season long, I can't see getting rid of him. In 2005, he showed he can play 3rd base plus hit like expected, though his bat was silent again when the team needed a lift.

[What Exit?]

The NY Post is reporting that Joe Torre will stay. Sports is the only thing I might trust The Post to get right. According to The Post, Torre will be informed before his end-of-season speech.

Let's see how much room on the leash Cashman has this year. Their outfield is set for another 3-5 years. They can even make Hideki Matsui a first baseman - this works as I'd like to see Jason Giambi and Gary Sheffield wearing new uniforms next year. There's also no reason to bring back Randy Johnson, but that means that the Yankees will need to exercise Mike Mussina's option. They should call Rivera and Proctor aside, then exectue the rest of the bullpen. Jared Wright and Cory Lidle can be their middle relief; Carl Pavano can keep them company if he ever pitches again. Sadly, that leaves 3 slots in the starting staff. If Steinbrenner has a say, they'll sadly chase old pitching...again. They should be loading up on young pitchers, and they should also be looking for their next closer and catcher. As disgusted as I was with A-Rod's collapse in the clutch all season long, I can't see getting rid of him. In 2005, he showed he can play 3rd base plus hit like expected, though his bat was silent again when the team needed a lift.
Lidle is a free Agent. How do you propose to move Johnson and Giambi? Bruney is pretty good, do not shoot him please. ;) Wright as long relief sounds good to me unless we can trade him. Moose is too expensive, the option is either $17 or $19 million. Alex could bring us the young pitching we desperately need. He is our best trading chip. Look at either the Angels or White Sox and maybe the Dodgers.

Jim

[D_Odds]

Bruney might pan out, but I see him as another Chacon / Small. Moose is very expensive, but there isn't too much reliable starting pitching out there. Mussina should be the veteran starter on the Yankees, but he doesn't seem much of a leader. I don't think we can deal A-Rod, between his contract and his no-trade clause.

As for moving Johnson and Giambi, send them to the bullpen. :cool: Their just dead weight. I'd love to see both of them on the Spring Training cut list - most expensive players in the minor leagues.

[D_Odds]

TheirThey're just dead weight. :smack:

[What Exit?]

Bruney might pan out, but I see him as another Chacon / Small. Moose is very expensive, but there isn't too much reliable starting pitching out there. Mussina should be the veteran starter on the Yankees, but he doesn't seem much of a leader. I don't think we can deal A-Rod, between his contract and his no-trade clause.

As for moving Johnson and Giambi, send them to the bullpen. :cool: Their just dead weight. I'd love to see both of them on the Spring Training cut list - most expensive players in the minor leagues.
Give Bruney a chance, the big difference is that he is only 25 and throws very hard. He might be a true asset. If you are willing to pay Moose $17M, let him walk instead and go after Zito hard and outbid the Mets and RedSox.
Alex can be dealt, there are teams very interested. The no-trade is tough, but I think it just limits the teams we can try to deal with. This we will just have to watch unfold. Johnson will just be a grossly overpaid 4 guy next year.
I wonder is we could package Jason with a boat load of cash and move him?
I doubt it, but I hope Cashman tries hard. Sheffield is a no brainer. He is gone.
As I do not believe we can move Jason, I would like to see Cashman try an move either Godzilla or Abreu to make a permanent roster spot for Melky. They both should have some good trade value as long as we send some cash.

Jim

[D_Odds]

I understand your thinking with Mussina, but I'd rather not get into a bidding war for another player and end up with too long a contract. Anchor your staff around Wang and Mussina, and find young pitching by the boatload. Stuff the farm system while waiting out Mussina. While the Yankees never "write off" a year, I don't think taking a year to rebuild the pitching staff from within is a bad thing. Experienced castoffs aren't working.

You talked me into giving Bruney another chance, but if he does turn into a Chacon, you're going to the bullpen with him!

[What Exit?]

You talked me into giving Bruney another chance, but if he does turn into a Chacon, you're going to the bullpen with him!
I would love that assignment, even if it was just to be the stat assistant to the bullpen coach and radar gun handler and spit bucket guy. ;)

Barry William Zito was born: 05/13/1978. I would be willing to go up to 4 years at $60 million total rather than bring Moose back. I think he might be the one free agent worth pursuing. If the bidding goes higher, then at least we helped the Mets or Red Sox overpay.

Try hard to trade one of the corners for a young pitcher. Whether it is Erwin Santana of the Angels, a White Sox or Dontrell Willis*. Get someone below the age of 25 and make it happen. No off season move could prove more important.

Jim

* I know, the last is a pipe dream, just an example.

[D_Odds]

4 years / $60 mm won't do it for Zito. I'm guessing his agent will ask for 10 and settle for 7. $15 - $17 mm a year sounds right. I agree that youth is the way to go, and not just for pitching.

[What Exit?]

4 years / $60 mm won't do it for Zito. I'm guessing his agent will ask for 10 and settle for 7. $15 - $17 mm a year sounds right. I agree that youth is the way to go, and not just for pitching.
If your belief is true, I would stay far away from it. I hope I might be right. We need some young lefties on the staff, in the worst way.

[robardin]

4 years / $60 mm won't do it for Zito. I'm guessing his agent will ask for 10 and settle for 7. $15 - $17 mm a year sounds right.
With the Yankees, Mets and Red Sox (at least) all in the bidding, 15-17mm/year is quite likely the pay bracket we're talking about.

But a 10-year contract for a 28 year old pitcher? I'd be amazed if anyone even goes to 7. If I were a GM with the $$$ I'd max out at 5 years plus an option at those rates, even for a Barry Zito. I wouldn't even give Dontrelle Willis a 10 year deal, and he's 24.

What's the longest deal ever signed by a pitcher? Is it still Mike Hampton's 8-year deal he signed with Colorado after bolting the Mets following the 2000 World Series? ...Yeah, that turned out real well, didn't it?

[What Exit?]

What's the longest deal ever signed by a pitcher? Is it still Mike Hampton's 8-year deal he signed with Colorado after bolting the Mets following the 2000 World Series? ...Yeah, that turned out real well, didn't it?
Hampton and Kevin Brown. Another great contract.
I am hesitant to give a pitcher 5 years, never mind 7 and never 10.

Torre is officially coming back next year for the final year of his contract.

[Khangol]

I don't understand why anybody should be shocked that the Yankees lost to the Tigers. The Tigers had the best pitching staff in the league, been that way all season. As long as their pitchers stepped up and had good outings, they had an excellent chance to win three of five. Their pitchers did so. End of story.

All this chatter about the Yankees "Greatest Lineup Ever!" and "All-Stars at every position" neglected to mention the one most important position on the field: pitcher's mound. Bats alone don't win playoffs; that fact has been proven time and again by teams like the Indians, Rangers, and yes, Yankees. The Tigers didn't have anywhere near the batting muscle of the Yankees, but they had plenty enough to hit Yankees pitching. They also had enough pitching (more than enough, in fact) to make all those "All-Stars at every position" look pathetic at the plate. Result? A "shocking" Tigers victory in the ALDS. "Shocking", that is, to the self-styled experts who paid no attention to the oldest cliche in the game: Good pitching beats good hitting.

What happened to the Yankees? It's really just that simple. It wasn't luck, it wasn't a fluke, it wasn't Torre's management, it wasn't A-Rod going AWOL. They just ran into the Tigers' pitching at a time when the Tigers' pitchers were on top of their game, and they didn't have the pitching to counteract with. That's all.

[What Exit?]

I don't understand why anybody should be shocked that the Yankees lost to the Tigers. The Tigers had the best pitching staff in the league, been that way all season. As long as their pitchers stepped up and had good outings, they had an excellent chance to win three of five. Their pitchers did so. End of story.
...snip...
What happened to the Yankees? It's really just that simple. It wasn't luck, it wasn't a fluke, it wasn't Torre's management, it wasn't A-Rod going AWOL. They just ran into the Tigers' pitching at a time when the Tigers' pitchers were on top of their game, and they didn't have the pitching to counteract with. That's all.
That is a very nice theory, but where was this great pitching in the last 50 games when they lost 31 times? Or in the last 3 games when KC swept them? I think it was perfectly reasonable to look at Detroit as not being the same team from earlier in the season. I think there were plenty of reasons to be surprised by what happened.

[Khangol]

That is a very nice theory, but where was this great pitching in the last 50 games when they lost 31 times? Or in the last 3 games when KC swept them? I think it was perfectly reasonable to look at Detroit as not being the same team from earlier in the season. I think there were plenty of reasons to be surprised by what happened.The Tigers' slide during the final six weeks was due more to their lack of hitting than any collapse of pitching. As for the last three games, when their pitching was off, that's like saying "Where was the Yankees great hitting during those games when they got shut out by Tampa Bay (8-0), Kansas City (5-0), and Baltimore (5-0)?" Some games are going to go that way. Sometimes hitters (and pitchers) just aren't on their game that day.

But what I said was, the Yankees ran into Detroit's pitchers at a time when they were on top of their game. And I wasn't the least bit shocked or surprised by the result.

[jsc1953]

I don't think Yankees fans get what it means when we hear that every player in the line-up has been on an all star team in their career. We wonder how it could be fun. . .that a team isn't put together "the right way", but instead, just constructed of every single player who wanted to take Steinbrenner's money.

Maybe that's exactly it. If you build a team full of All Stars, maybe you get a team that plays like...an All Star Team. Enough talent to win a lot of games, but no chemistry. No fire-in-the-belly.

Slash the payroll, build the team from the bottom up.

[RickJay]

That is a very nice theory, but where was this great pitching in the last 50 games when they lost 31 times? Or in the last 3 games when KC swept them? I think it was perfectly reasonable to look at Detroit as not being the same team from earlier in the season. I think there were plenty of reasons to be surprised by what happened.
Any team, even one that goes 95-67 like the Tigers did, will have bad stretches. It's wise to pay attention to the 162-game data sample, not 50 games.

The dismissal of the Tigers was just foolish. They were not patsies; they are a tremendous pitching-and-defense team and they proved it all year. They supposedly had a tough second half, but the Tigers' second half ERA was STILL better than the Yankees'.

In a short series, depth is less important, and front line talent more important, than in the regular season. The team with stronger front line starting pitching had an even larger advantage in a short series than they do over a 162-game season, because your top 3 starters can pitch almost all your games in the playoffs. And the Tigers had exactly one thing that was definitely better than the Yankees; front line starting pitchers.

It's nuts to think the Yankees are somehow a bunch of heartless losers because they were beaten by the best pitching staff in the world.

[What Exit?]

Any team, even one that goes 95-67 like the Tigers did, will have bad stretches. It's wise to pay attention to the 162-game data sample, not 50 games.

The dismissal of the Tigers was just foolish. They were not patsies; they are a tremendous pitching-and-defense team and they proved it all year. They supposedly had a tough second half, but the Tigers' second half ERA was STILL better than the Yankees'.

In a short series, depth is less important, and front line talent more important, than in the regular season. The team with stronger front line starting pitching had an even larger advantage in a short series than they do over a 162-game season, because your top 3 starters can pitch almost all your games in the playoffs. And the Tigers had exactly one thing that was definitely better than the Yankees; front line starting pitchers.

It's nuts to think the Yankees are somehow a bunch of heartless losers because they were beaten by the best pitching staff in the world.
I understand the ERA part of it and I know I was not calling them heartless losers.
The following are the reasons why I thought the pitching was more evenly matched.
Wang and Moose gave us good chances to win. Both pitched less well than anticipated. Johnson and Wright were both expected to be bad, but so was Kenny Rogers, the worst Post season pitcher in the history of the game. That was the largest shock by far. The Tigers still had the better bullpen, but the offensive difference should have made up for this gap. The Yanks did own the #1 run differential in the majors. That usually counts for something.

In your thread: 2006 Major League Postseason Predictions and Bragging Thread (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=390550)
My prediction was "Yanks over Detroit in 4. In his game Rodgers finds a way to choke it. " So while I expected one loss, I never expected Rodgers to win.

The Postponement was probably the best thing that could have happened for Detroit, Moose is the ultimate creature of habit, and it may well have thrown him off his game.

Jim

[gonzomax]

They built a fuckin softball team. Hitting is fun to watch. In playoffs, baseball 101 says pitching shuts down hitting. This is not new. That is whay happened plain and simple. The togers had a clear edge in pitching.

[Least Original User Name Ever]

The Tigers, too....dad.

You needs a spell check real bad.


Jim, like I said, the Tigers played like that for two thirds of the season. That last part was pedestrian. Part of the problem is many people (the fans included in the beginning of the season) didn't get to watch the Tigers. They just got Sports Center highlights of them, much like the fluke year the Royals had a few years ago. If anything, this Tigers team kind of reminds me of that team. Young pitching, veterans on their team (even Matt Stairs!), etc.

The Yankees didn't have "superior talent". They had damned fine hitting. If anything, the Tigers had superior talent, in the purest sense of the word. Perhaps we're muddling "talent" with "potential". The Yankees, as individuals, have met their ceilings and are worming their way down. The Tigers are on the way up, and, what looks for a long time.




I fucking hope.

Pitching > Hitting
Defense > Offense

(I hope I have those pointing the correct way...)

[RickJay]

I uWang and Moose gave us good chances to win. Both pitched less well than anticipated. Johnson and Wright were both expected to be bad, but so was Kenny Rogers, the worst Post season pitcher in the history of the game.
Prior to this year Rogers' postsaeason career comprised 20 innings, some of them pitched 10 years ago. I mean, come on.

I picked the Yankees, too, but it was a slim call; they were not overwhelming favourites, even if they WERE slight favourites. They got beat. It happens; I'm just saying it's crazy to think Joe Torre is some sort of idiot because the Tigers have a great pitching staff.

[brianjedi]

Ridiculous, yet still intriguing idea:

A-Rod and cash to Florida for Cabrera and Willis.

A-Rod gets to go to Miami and play in a zero-pressure environment, the Marlins become an instant contender in the NL East, and the Yankees get younger and better.

Wilbon suggested sending him to the Marlins on PTI yesterday, and it's just crazy enough of an idea to work. The Marlins would get someone who can draw fans, they've got enough young pitching to absorb the loss of Willis and they get a defensive upgrade at third over the converted outfielder Cabrera.

[Stratocaster]

I am not picking on you Stratocaster, but it is baseball, and sometimes in a short series the best team doesn't win and it is nobody's fault. It happens all the time, as for example when the Royals beat up the Tigers the last weekend of the season.I hear ya. But Georgie--and, heck, he may be the primary culprit--ought to be able to expect more for his $200M. If the Yanks had lost this year as they did following two years of WS championships, for example, it's a different story. You shrug and say, you can't win 'em all.

This may be unrealistic, but if I'm spending $200M, I want to win way more than my fair share, and two years in a row bounced in the first round--I'd be unhappy too (and I'm not a Yankee fan, BTW). I'd think of it this way (an oversimplification, I know): I could have pocketed $100M for the last 3 years and fielded a team that produced the same WS results (compared to other teams with similar payrolls, worst cases). That's a lot of scratch.

[RickJay]

I hear ya. But Georgie--and, heck, he may be the primary culprit--ought to be able to expect more for his $200M.
No, really, he shouldn't. They finish in first place every year. You say Steinbrenner should expect to win more than his fair share, and he DOES win more than his fair share; they're buying a postseason berth every year, something no other team can do, although the Red Sox have tried. This year they had a staggering array of things go wrong that would have destroyed any other team, and they STILL won, in large part because they just buy the wins. You cannot expect more than that. There's a limit as to how good a major league team can be; 95-100 wins and a first palce finish every single year is about the upper limit for sustained success. What happens in the postseason is just too luck based to draw any conclusions.

The Yankees were actually very lucky from 1996 to 2000 to win as many playoff series as they did; the 2000 team, in particular, was one of the worst teams to ever win a World Series. But that's the way it goes. Since then they've been somewhat unlucky. You cannot, realistically, construct a better team.

I could have pocketed $100M for the last 3 years and fielded a team that produced the same WS results (compared to other teams with similar payrolls, worst cases). That's a lot of scratch.
Sure, but had the Yankees pocketed $100 million they'd have in fact done a lot less - they would have missed the playoffs both years, attendance and YES viewership would be lower than they would have been, and revenue would be going down.

brianjedi: I would not trade you Miguel Cabrera for A-Rod straight up even if you covered some of the salary difference.

[Cheesesteak]

The Yankees were actually very lucky from 1996 to 2000 to win as many playoff series as they did; the 2000 team, in particular, was one of the worst teams to ever win a World Series. But that's the way it goes. Since then they've been somewhat unlucky.I think this is an important point. The expectation level is perhaps too high, based on the first 5 years under Torre. It's not realistic to expect that a high payroll will guarantee winning a 5 or 7 game series, especially when you're relying on hitting instead of pitching. A big payroll should "guarantee" a 90+ win season and get you into the playoffs.

I disagree, though, that you can't construct a better team with that money. They make a goodly number of mistakes and pay lots of money for some mediocre performers, but overspend enough to cover for that most of the time.

[What Exit?]

Ridiculous, yet still intriguing idea:
A-Rod and cash to Florida for Cabrera and Willis.
A-Rod gets to go to Miami and play in a zero-pressure environment, the Marlins become an instant contender in the NL East, and the Yankees get younger and better.
Wilbon suggested sending him to the Marlins on PTI yesterday, and it's just crazy enough of an idea to work. The Marlins would get someone who can draw fans, they've got enough young pitching to absorb the loss of Willis and they get a defensive upgrade at third over the converted outfielder Cabrera.
You have just described the average Yankee fans pipe dream. It is not a conceivable trade. I hope you are right anyway. ;)

RickJay: There are many Yankee fans that seriously question Torre's postseason on field management for the last 4 years. This is not knee-jerk and not new to this year. Most Yankee fans were surprised he survived the Red Sox debacle of 2004. I questioned heavily his handling of the staff in the 2003 World Series. While most Yankee fans were happy to see Joe retained, I was upset when out of nowhere he got the biggest contract extension ever for a manager.
It was a strange move and hard to fathom. Torre did a better job this year than he has for many years, it points out Torre is a better manager when he needs to manage and not just sit back and wait for the three run home run. Ideally, someone higher up would have protected Torre from himself and not let Sheffield the dirt bag back into uniform. I am so happy to see this bad seed go. I want to trade A-Rod as he is our best and most expendable trading chip. I want Sheffield gone as he is genuinely a bad apple. A jerk and a bum. The Yanks need youth. The Yanks need Gene Michaels back in charge of development and that we finally have. We need to get our payroll down to the $140 million range to minimize the damn whining by other fans and to get away from the All Star at every position. It failed in the 80s and it is failing in the 00s.

Jim

[D_Odds]

What Exit?, what your describing is not letting the Boss make any decisions. The Boss doesn't chase Abreu. The Boss doesn't look at a young, now Met, center fielder (even though he damn near single-handedly beat the Yankees); he sees Randy Johnson and remembers what he did 5-10 years ago. I really can't see Cashman and Torre saying "Let's bid on Randy Johnson instead of Carlos Beltran." It's not like there was a question about Bernie already being on his last legs in center field.

[What Exit?]

What Exit?, what your describing is not letting the Boss make any decisions. The Boss doesn't chase Abreu. The Boss doesn't look at a young, now Met, center fielder (even though he damn near single-handedly beat the Yankees); he sees Randy Johnson and remembers what he did 5-10 years ago. I really can't see Cashman and Torre saying "Let's bid on Randy Johnson instead of Carlos Beltran." It's not like there was a question about Bernie already being on his last legs in center field.
Yes and no, it is not just the "Boss". The Tampa contingent over the last few years that especially included Neuman and Conners have given a lot of bad advise to George. As far as George not making personnel decisions, that would probably be for the best. Cashman and Michaels supported by Swindel seem to make the soundest decisions. Cashman from what I hear wanted Vlad and not Sheff. I have no clue why they did not go after Beltran. George demanded, Sheff, Giambi and Johnson. A-Rod it would appear they were all in agreement on. The wall was solid on Damon, except we all know, George wanted him on the team, but we do not know if anyone objected. Abreu was played well and carefully and appeared to be a Cashman decision. The one thing this year has shown, is the Yankee's execs are finally working together and not against each other. We no longer know for sure, who wanted which player or coach. The last clear look behind the scenes was when Connors finally got pushed out in the Pitching Coach debate. Torre (and most Yankee Fans) wanted Guidry, Cashman wanted Kerrigan but was happy to compromise and Connors wanted and promised he could get Leo Mazzone or Neil Allen. When it turned out Leo Mazzone just used the Yanks to get a little more money out of Baltimore, Connors finally got pushed out of loop. This is the same genius that rushed Jose Contreras to the majors without time in AAA to acclimatize. While running the pitching development, he failed to develop anyone and seem to preach the five-inning starter mantra to ensure that no prospect would blow out his arm, but also ensure that no starter was ready for the majors. This off-season should be interesting behind the scenes in player development. I have heard Michaels is very unhappy with the steadily reduced innings pitched by Hughes towards the end of the season. He wanted Hughes to build up endurance and arm strength, and not to worry as much about a chance of an arm injury. The theory is, if you teach a kid to pitch 5 innings in the minors, you cannot expect him to throw seven in the majors. I believe Ted Lilly was a good example of this poor development strategy; it took him years to recover from it.

Jim

[Cervaise]

Try hard to trade one of the corners for a young pitcher. Whether it is Erwin Santana of the Angels, a White Sox or Dontrell WillisSounds good.

Please leave Matsuzaka Daisuke for us West-Coasters. ;)

[What Exit?]

Sounds good.

Please leave Matsuzaka Daisuke for us West-Coasters. ;)
Yanks have already expressed a strong interest in the 26 year old pitcher from Japan. Negotiating rights from the Seibu Lions will be bid on soon from what I understand. Good Luck in the bidding. I understand he throws from 90-96 mph and throws a slider and splitter with a very similar delivery. He looked very good in the WBC, he went 3-0 I believe. I have heard rumors he is a prime off-season target of the Yanks, but as the off-season started rather suddenly, this is still in flux. ;)

Jim

[D_Odds]

Sounds good.

Please leave Matsuzaka Daisuke for us West-Coasters. ;)Not if I have anything to say about it! :cool: Didn't we just tell you we wanted young pitching? You can never have too much pitching.

[D_Odds]

Yanks have already expressed a strong interest in the 26 year old pitcher from Japan. Negotiating rights from the Seibu Lions will be bid on soon from what I understand. Good Luck in the bidding. I understand he throws from 90-96 mph and throws a slider and splitter with a very similar delivery. He looked very good in the WBC, he went 3-0 I believe. I have heard rumors he is a prime off-season target of the Yanks, but as the off-season started rather suddenly, this is still in flux. ;)

Jim
Bidding won't start until November, after their All-Star game.

[brianjedi]

Yanks have already expressed a strong interest in the 26 year old pitcher from Japan. Negotiating rights from the Seibu Lions will be bid on soon from what I understand. Good Luck in the bidding. I understand he throws from 90-96 mph and throws a slider and splitter with a very similar delivery. He looked very good in the WBC, he went 3-0 I believe. I have heard rumors he is a prime off-season target of the Yanks, but as the off-season started rather suddenly, this is still in flux. ;)

Jim

Don't forget the gyroball.

There is proof he throws it: the slow-motion video of the home run Matsuzaka gave up in the WBC final shows that the pitch had gyroball rotation.

[What Exit?]

Don't forget the gyroball.

There is proof he throws it: the slow-motion video of the home run Matsuzaka gave up in the WBC final shows that the pitch had gyroball rotation.
Rather than my Googling this, please fill me in on what a gyroball is and what gyroball rotation is. I have only heard the term once before.
I am most curious.

[brianjedi]

Rather than my Googling this, please fill me in on what a gyroball is and what gyroball rotation is. I have only heard the term once before.
I am most curious.

The gyroball is an almost-mythical pitch. The story goes that a couple of Japanese physicists determined that if thrown correctly, a baseball could be made to spiral like a rifle bullet and break away severely from right-handed batters.

It requires a special grip and throwing motion, and if not thrown correctly can get wild. Matsuzaka is known to throw it, and there's inconclusive evidence that Greg Maddux throws them occasionally (although he denies it.) It's virtually unhittable if thrown successfully.

[Least Original User Name Ever]

Not if I have anything to say about it! :cool: Didn't we just tell you we wanted young pitching? You can never have too much pitching.


Did someone say young pitching? I'll take some young pitching.

Oh yeah..that's right..we're SWIMMING with young arms...hm.

A new Japanese one would be rather fun. Could come in and perform with no pressure. Could even come out of the pen. Yes.....this sounds nice....