The Beginning of the Resurection of my Marriage ???

[Belrix]

Damn, Damn, & Damn.

For those of you new to saga, here's a linky (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=390765) to play with.

Well, my wife and I had a "date" last Friday. It was out 11th anniversary and we decided to go out. We agreed before hand that we would keep it light and easy. Just an evening out between close friends. To ignore the anniversary would be like avoiding the elephant in the room so we thought this was a good compromise between the traditional anniversary date and not doing anything at all. We avoided the romantic resturant and the romantic movie and went with a chain steak place and a disappointing comedy (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0483726).

It was a pretty good time. We steered clear of problem subjects, having to shift gears a couple of times, but did alright.

I noticed at dinner that she wasn't wearing her wedding/engagement set.
She hasn't been wearing it for a little while now. I said something and she just said she forgot to put it back on. She intended, she said, to wear it and the heart pendant that I gave her for a wedding gift eleven years ago.

So, on the way to the movie, and I forgot the seque to this subject, I told her that I was thinking a bit about how I would date after the separation. I told her that I was going to have to be careful not to find a gold-digger or somebody just looking for a man to save her from an uncomfortable lifestyle. Mostly, this was a smokescreen on my part - I was trying to show her that I was accepting the inevitable and this was, indeed, an evening with with a good friend.

We sat together in the movie theater, holding hands. She leaned on my shoulder at times which suprised me. When the movie was over, we went out for dessert, holding hands over the table. I kept noticing that her wedding ring was gone and I was nostalgic while looking at a different ring she was wearing, the ruby ring I gave her for our tenth anniversary.

That ring is a mixed memory. I wanted to get her a three-diamond, past-present-future ring for our tenth but they were simply too expensive. I settled on this ruby ring because it was beautiful, IMO, and was in my price range. When I gave it to her, I could see the disappointment in her eyes, she was really expecting & hoping for a three-stone-ring.

We got home, and for old times sake we had sex. We had discussed this a bit earlier and I said (please, forgive the language) that I knew the difference between "making love" and "fucking" and I thought we could engage in the latter. Just "friends with benefits" it's sometimes called.

Well, when it was all done, and she was leaving my bed for hers, I was moping a bit. She reminded me that this was all "just between friends" and I said that I know that and I was 99% with the program on that subject. Really, it didn't feel like 99%, more like 50%.

Well, it comes out Saturday, the day after, in an argument, that she's not so sure now. She's starting to second-guess her committment to the breakup. Friday, she says, was a reminder of the good times and she is feeling more uncertainty. She says her parting comment to me that night was posturing on her side, too.

So - here we are, perhaps lying to each other and/or lying to ourselves. She's spent weeks trying to convince me that we need to separate and now that I've finally come to agree with her, she's starting to waffle.

I believed her comments enough that night that Saturday morning I moved my wedding band to my other hand. Now she's saying she just was saying that and she's not so sure now.

Good God! I'm confused.

She fixed me a nice breakfast this morning. She's called me at my desk to let me know something that could've waiting 'til evening.

If it weren't for the kids, I'd chuck it all, I don't need this pain and confusion. Now, I don't know what's appropriate.

She's still the same selfish person that she's always been. Yesterday I saw her exasperation as we were setting the table. I was distracted and wasn't helping her fully. (This, after I've cleaned the kitchen and set the table solo for the past four days or so). She'll probably remain the poor housekeeper and spendthrift that she's always been. She admits her poor decision in responding to personal ads but seems to want it swept under the rug as being in the past.

Is she demonstrating her desire to keep me or is this her self-preservation as her resume ages out in the real-world with no responses? Am I looking back to her out of fear for the unknown or desire for her?

Am I mis-reading all of this and her expressed confusion just a ploy to manipulate me? Her own sense of self-worth is going to want me to leave her, not the reverse.

This whole thing just sucks.

[Long Time First Time]

Am I mis-reading all of this and her expressed confusion just a ploy to manipulate me? .

Dont' know. What does your marriage counselor say?




(Hint, hint)

[Onomatopoeia]

You're not going to like what I say, but here goes. . .

You were wrong to either suggest or agree to this date. All you've done is confused things for yourself and your estranged. The sex just componded the damage. Things may be okay for a short period, but the root cause of what's driven you two apart is still there. All that's happened is a little muddying of the waters. Now, if you're honest you'll admit to yourself that what's happened is precisely what you wanted. Doubt on her part opens the door to hope on your part. You know this, even if only subconciously.

Having said that, I don't think you're a bad person for encouraging the spark of reconciliation to ignite, even if it was a bit duplicitous. I can't imagine how it must be to want everything to be the way things were during happier times so much that you'd do just about anything to force it to come about. What you should understand, however, is because this was not a mutual desire it probably won't last. Her resentment will resurface at some point.

You need to back off, man. Don't encourage one more iota of doubt in her mind. You've done what you've done, now let it go where it will. She needs to find out for herself if there's something really there, or if it's just the sweet high of nostalgia and post-coital satisfaction. Let her find her place. You can't judge anything by reactions a day or three after shared intimacy.

Good luck.

[DianaG]

There doesn't have to be a bad guy here. My guess is that she's not intentionally manipulating you, any more than you're intentionally manipulating her. You're both hurting, you're both confused, and really, you should stay the hell away from each other as much as possible for a while. You both need perspective.

Good luck.

[Cranky Hermit]

I think she's scared. It's the fear of the (relatively) unknown.
Regardless of how she feels, what about you? You obviously know she hasn't changed. If she says she wants to keep trying, is that enough for you? Do you think it'll really be a good marriage? Is there still respect and trust on both sides?
i'm sorry you're having to go through this. Try not to make decisions based on fear or desperation. (yeah, I know, so easy to say, so difficult to do!)

[hajario]

There doesn't have to be a bad guy here. My guess is that she's not intentionally manipulating you, any more than you're intentionally manipulating her. You're both hurting, you're both confused, and really, you should stay the hell away from each other as much as possible for a while. You both need perspective.

What she said.

[SnakesCatLady]

If you do decide to give it another try, go back to the marriage counselor. Her "me, me, me" attitude has got to change if the marriage is going to work.

Good luck. Keep us updated - I've been wondering how you were doing.

[The Great Sun Jester]

From OP's Back from the Brink (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=387250&page=2&pp=40) thread:Pulled mine back from the brink. Actually, the better analogy would be pulled it out from under the bus. It's still totally jacked up and both of us just look at each other and wonder why the hell we'd even bother trying to patch things up. But there's these kids...and neither of us is really interested in anyone else so infidelity isn't really a threat. In fact, it probably wouldn't damage what's left between us at this point. There's a decent amount of personal respect between us, just no love at all. Al hugs, no kisses, and certainly no sex.I'll liken a damaged marriage to a complete fracture of...oh, how about your femur? If you're not into total amputation, you need to seperate the pieces before you set them and get the thing healing again. Otherwise you'll likely end up with something that is an ugly, malformed and painful mockery of what you had before. I am where you're headed if you're not careful, and I'm not having a good time and neither is she. (You can search for The Inigo Montoya Saga thread if you really want a front seat in my personal train wreck.)

You're going to hear some good arguments for "Don't stay together for the kids' sake." In the end it's totally your call. As for me I'm doing what I consider to be "jumping on the grenade" in my marriage and not proceeding with a divorce. I am choosing total elimination of intimacy with my estranged. I won't go into why I'm on that path, but I'm on it--the one you're looking at yourself when you think maybe you can fix things up.

Dude, the bone has been broken and as I see it there are three ways to treat it. Amputate it, leave it alone and hope it heals properly on its own, or go through the pain and inconvenience of a real seperation (hint the 3 months I did was not nearly long enough). FTR I still consider my estranged to be a selfish witch. I am simply rebuilding myself in such a way that I don't look to her for any flavor of emotional support, and I give none more than I would to a friend. We're not fighting or nasty to one another so the kids don't have to see that, and we are reasonably happy with the rest of our routines. We just aren't in love anymore.

Given the e-mail & Craig's list stuff, can you trust her not to satisfy herself outside of the marriage? Will you be able to look yourself in the mirror and tell yourself that you trust her? Will you be able to look yourself in the mirror and find a shred of self-esteem? Because I'm down that road, and I have none of that.

And no good guys/bad guys in my opinion. Just the normal confusion and reluctance to address the fracture. It's broke, dude. Lop it off. Especially if she's demonstrated a sneaky and selfish face--Odds are it's who she is in her core. Nobody needs that.

[eleanorigby]

Oy. This could be me (without the craigslist stuff and the selfishness).

I am on a picket fence (and none too comfy at that) re my own marriage. This is going to sound crazy, but as soon as we said the words, "separate" to one another (not the kids, yet)--it was like all this pressure was gone. I dunno-maybe we just saw that we had options and that helped us have hope. He is not going to change and to be honest, neither am I. But is it so bad now? (obviously, I am navel-gazing here, sorry). The answer is I don't know.


I think you both are giving out mixed signals because both of you are confused and uncertain as to the future. I would say this: if you are not going to separate, there needs to be a renegotiation of marital terms, hopefully mediated by a counselor.

It's a huge, permanent step, divorce. I really don't want to take it unless my back is to the wall. Then again, I am lonely inside my marriage. But even with everything, I can't whip up the ire that seems necessary for me to kick him out and vice versa. I just wish I had a friend in this, is all....

Good luck. I hear ya re the sex and I can't judge you for it. I do the same thing. High moral principles are all well and good, but.

[The Great Sun Jester]

I would say this: if you are not going to separate, there needs to be a renegotiation of marital terms...I am lonely inside my marriage. A-Frickin-men!

[eleanorigby]

A-Frickin-men!

Honey-if you are ever in town, I will buy you a coffee or a beer*. We could share a Kleenex or laugh in a truly warped way....




*not a euphemism, I mean some type of liquid refreshment! :)

[PunditLisa]

The problem with nostalgia is that it forgets the pain and only focuses on the good. It is history, filtered through rose-colored glasses. Quit looking at the past and try to focus on the present. To me, before I'd recommit to saving the relationship, I would:

1. Banish ambivalence. Either she was 100% committed to saving it or the separation would continue. There is no room for "I don't know if I want to be with you or not" in a marriage. And, quite honestly, it is not attractive for anyone to allow someone to string them along.

2. Insist on marriage counseling. The problems that led you to this point aren't going to magically disappear. You need to discover the root problems, assess whether they can be repaired, and work on fixing them. If she gets pissed off because you aren't setting the table properly, I can guarantee you that housekeeping is NOT the real issue.

3. Insist on financial counseling. Money is the #1 reason couples divorce. Your wife sounds like she is financially immature. This cannot continue. Experts recommend engaging the "spendthrift" in the financial process, including setting realistic budgets and spending allowances. Whether you separate or not, she is going to have to start acting like a grown up. Expect it. Demand it.

4. Quit focusing on the little things. IMO, you shouldn't have mentioned the rings. I don't wear my wedding rings half the time because it's hard to get tennis balls out of your pocket with a big old ring. My commitment to my marriage has NOTHING to do with whether or not the rings are on my finger.

Good luck to you.

[DianaG]

Belrix, a couple of questions...

Do you really want to stay together? Do you love her? Do you trust her? Do you think that you can make it work? Or are you just not able to imagine (yet) what your life is going to be like from now on, and you're afraid that it just might suck? And how about her? Which of these do you feel most accurately sums up her mindset?

I went through a breakup recently (we weren't married, but we were together for nine years). It sucked. It's scary. And for a while, I thought that I'd be happier if we were back together. But I wouldn't, not in the long run. I know that if we did get back together, within a month (tops!) I'd remember all the reasons we ended it, and that we were right to end it. The breakup of a long relationship is hard. It's painful, and terrifying, and humiliating, but it also gives you the rest of your life back.

Being with the wrong person can suck an awful lot of the joy out of life. Are you sure that you're the right people for each other? Can you be happy together? If not, don't go back.

Good luck.

[eleanorigby]

1. Banish ambivalence. Either she was 100% committed to saving it or the separation would continue. There is no room for "I don't know if I want to be with you or not" in a marriage. And, quite honestly, it is not attractive for anyone to allow someone to string them along.

Um, baloney. There's plenty of room for ambivalence in any marriage-it's two different people, sometimes with conflicting needs or desires. Ambivalence should not run the marriage, and there should be ways to navigate through it, but all in all, it's a feeling. Everyone's entitled to it.

I'm with you re the nostalgia, though. But I am finding that you don't just up and leave a marriage-I mean, some do, but that is not the way it happens all the time. It kind of peels off in layers.

Believe me, I have often wished that my husband would do something almost heinous (not involving the kids), so that I could get up that righteous indignation and energy and throw him out. We seem to be fading away, rather than abruptly ending-if we are ending. Perhaps we are in a death spiral or perhaps we are not. No doubt the OP has some of the same thoughts, upon occasion. That seems predictable to me.

[Leviosaurus]

I'll reiterate what I said in the other thread - the only way your relationship with this woman stands a ghost of a chance is if you are able to tell her you don't want her back and mean it. That doesn't mean you have to tell her to leave, but you have to be able to if you want to.

Right now you are hopelessly addicted to this woman and can't tell her no. I suspected in the previous thread that she's always wanted you you to assert yourself. All the bratty things she was doing were testing you, pushing limits until you stood your ground and firmly told her to knock it off.

Now I'm sure this is the case. The first time you do something slightly assertive, indicate in a tiny way that you may not be under her power, she jumps into bed with you and starts talking reconciliation. She wants to act like a princess, and she wants you to act like the King.

[Unintentionally Blank]

Since you're walking a path I haven't walked, I have no advice. Only this: If life were easy and predictible, we'd all be happy n rich.

But it's not. I only hope you look back and realize you did the right things at the right times and things end up for the best.

[PunditLisa]

Um, baloney. There's plenty of room for ambivalence in any marriage-it's two different people, sometimes with conflicting needs or desires. Ambivalence should not run the marriage, and there should be ways to navigate through it, but all in all, it's a feeling. Everyone's entitled to it.

I respectfully disagree. Belrix has given his wife plenty of time and space to decide what she wants to do. It's beginning to smack of cruelty and is putting Belrix on an emotional rollercoaster that isn't healthy or fair.

[Linty Fresh]

Belrix, repeat after me: If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and has a bill like a duck . . .

It's over, man. Just because she uses you for a little sex it doesn't mean that anything's changed for the better. My relationship went through the same thing in college, although we weren't married. Basically, she's using you until she gets enough courage to step into the real world, and once that happens, it's over for good.

Look, maybe you need to learn some life's lessons. We all do. I sure haven't learned everything there is to learn out there. The thing is, Belrix, there are better, less painful ways to learn those lessons (assertiveness, for instance) that don't involve an emotionally and financially draining marriage to an unstable woman. No offense, I can see that you still have feelings for her, but she's unstable. Believe me. I've been there.

Dare I make a radical suggestion? Just let her go, and focus on picking up the pieces for awhile. Don't wallow in self-pity and loathing, learn the lessons and come out a stronger man. Then you'll be ready for a good relationship with someone who might actually enrich your life instead of suck it dry.

I hope I didn't offend you. Like I said, I can tell you still have a lot of feelings for her, but one of life's lessons is learning when to leave a bad situation alone, and from what I can see, you're in a bad situation.

[Schuyler]

Dont' know. What does your marriage counselor say?




(Hint, hint)

I'll just second (third?) this sentiment.

We all bring our own baggage to these advice threads, and some of the advice you'll receive here is no-doubt wise, and certainly learned at great pain. But following counsel off the internet, which may be fine for a "should I go to college" question, is perhaps better handled by a flesh-and-blood expert.

Also, and most importantly, this is someone who can hear both sides of the discussion - you'll pardon my frankness I hope, but your wife has a perspective in this as well, and maybe a counsellor could integrate both perspectives and facillitate a resolution agreeable to you both. Best of luck.

[Really Not All That Bright]

Just say no.

[Belrix]

Belrix, a couple of questions...
Do you really want to stay together?
Do you love her?
Do you trust her?
Do you think that you can make it work?
Or are you just not able to imagine (yet) what your life is going to be like from now on, and you're afraid that it just might suck? And how about her?
Do I really want to stay together? Not really
Do I love her? Yes, but maybe not in that way anymore. I dunno.
Do I trust her? No. I don't trust her to stay faithful and I don't trust her moneywise, either.
Do I think I can make it work? Yes, if I sacrifice my self-worth.

Strangely, I can imagine what it'll be like without her and it's not all bad. I worry stongly for my kids. Last week, in the days before payday, we had nearly no food in the house and she was out of cash again. I worry my kids might be hungry in her care. Friday was payday and today, Tuesday, she has $74 left in her account. She just "borrowed" $100 from my account, the supposed family account, so she could go shopping for clothing for an interview. I paid $100 last month on my personal credit card toward her cell phone bill so it wasn't shut off.

I know I can't stay with her just for the kids' sakes - they'd eventually see the sham and feel at fault for being the reason we'd stay together. I've counseled a close friend with an alcoholic wife that his kids need a stable home more than they need two parents in the home. I know this is true but it's hard to apply when it's your own kids.

PunditLisa, I'm with you on the nostalgia. Hindsight is not 20/20 - it's a way of filtering reality to see what you want to see.

I practice a form of music therapy as I drive down the road. I find that I focus on different things in music as my mood changes. Way back, I remember playing the hell out of Styx's "Lady" when I was in love:

Lady when I'm with you I'm smiling
Give me all your love
Your hands build me up when I'm sinking
Touch me and my troubles all fade

Some mornings it's angry music, some mornings it's peaceful music. This morning I found myself with Billy Joel:
Well so here I am at the end of the road
Where do I go from here?
I always figured it would be like this
Still nothing seems to be quite clear

All the words have been spoken and the prophecy fulfilled
But I just can't decide where to go
Yes, it's been quite a day and I should go to sleep
But tomorrow I will wake up and I'll know

That I've got to begin again
Though I don't know how start
Yes, I've got to begin again
And it's hard
...
And despite all the truth that's been thrown in my face
I just can't get you out of my mind
...
Yes, I've got to begin again
And it's hard

"Despite all the truth that's been thrown in my face" for sure. Up until Saturday, I was sure what she wanted, even if thought I didn't know what I wanted. Now I find that I'm scared about becoming closer to my wife again. I've got some distance I've been maintaining and I feel better for it, even though it means, figuratively, pushing her back a bit over the past couple days. I fear that if were to dive back into this shit-pile, re-invest my feelings and effort, I'd just get kicked in the balls again. Agreeing to separate is, in its way, liberating.

eleanorigby, I agree. I would be easier if we had obvious reasons to divorce. If she really succeeded in cheating on me, if she abused the kids. We've faded away over time, I guess. My parents reminded me that during their last visit, a year ago, I was complaining about the amount of time she spent out of the house with her friends. Doesn't seem that long ago but it's been a year.

I find myself envying my friend above with the alcoholic wife - at least her overt problem is obviously detrimental to her kids & husband.

Bit-by-bit the marriage has unraveled. I told my parents yesterday that I can't return to the marriage under the same rules as before. I told them that I can't return to the marriage we had even two-years ago. And I can't wind back the clock to who she and I once were.

Much as I hate to admit it, I think I'm done.

[PunditLisa]

Much as I hate to admit it, I think I'm done.

I'm not giving you any high-fives because I know it's nothing to celebrate. But I'm glad you are starting to enter a self-preservation mode because it isn't healthy to be in a marriage where you feel you have no power. Good for you. You shouldn't have to sacrifice your self worth to save a marriage.

Oh, and as far as music therapy goes, avoid Bonnie Raitt's "I Can't Make You Love Me" at all costs. I'm not going through what you are and it makes ME want to leap off a bridge. :)

[iamthewalrus(:3=]

Belrix, I have no advice to give, but wanted to let you know that I've been listening. And I think that the tone in the last post you made demonstrates that you've come a long way from the first time I read a thread about your marriage.

Ok, actually I have some advice. Don't pay for her cell phone and clothes shopping. Food for the kids, yes, but not that other stuff.

[eleanorigby]

Belrix -my best to you. One day at a time, buddy, one day at a time.


any way you could get custody? She doesn't sound all that stable....?

[SnakesCatLady]

I still think you ought to try for custody. Don't put it in an adversarial manner, just be realistic. If she wants to go back to school, it will be much easier for her to do so if you have custody of the kids. You also won't have to worry about them being hungry. I don't have children but that would drive me insane.

If she's still playing the money games, she seems to expect you to take her back and just forget everything that has happened. That is not realistic and it is not fair.

I hope this works out in the most positive and least painful manner for all of you.

[Alice The Goon]

It seems obvious to me that the answer to all of this will be if and when she gets a job paying a decent wage. An unhappy couple that stays together not for the kids, but because they can't afford to separate, now that's a special kind of hell. On top of an overwhelming amount of emotional stress because the marraige is suffering, is the added knowledge that at this moment, you don't even have a choice! You HAVE to be together right now and that can make you feel trapped, angry, and/or confused about what you really want.

The focus at some point will need to shift from deciding if the marraige is over to preparing for the marraige to be over. She's going to need a decent income, you're going to need for her to have a decent income, and the kids are going to need for her to have a decent income. I know you've said that she has some kind of specialty skill and has the potential for a good job. If she needs a short amount of schooling for a certificate or if she has to move a couple of hours away to land a good job, please take my advice to support her efforts and encourage her as your own financial future may depend on hers.

[Cat Whisperer]

Belrix, a couple of questions...

Do I really want to stay together? Not really
Do I love her? Yes, but maybe not in that way anymore. I dunno.
Do I trust her? No. I don't trust her to stay faithful and I don't trust her moneywise, either.
Do I think I can make it work? Yes, if I sacrifice my self-worth.

Maybe print this up and post it somewhere that you'll see it every day.

<snip>I know I can't stay with her just for the kids' sakes - they'd eventually see the sham and feel at fault for being the reason we'd stay together. <snip>
It's funny how people in bad marriages think their kids don't know. They know where mommy sleeps, and daddy sleeps, and when mommy doesn't come home til really late, and when mommy chews daddy's ass off, and when daddy thinks about leaving mommy. As much as you think your kids know, quadruple it, and they probably know even more. They might not know in words, but they are picking up every vibe in your house.
Much as I hate to admit it, I think I'm done.
What are you waiting for? (Serious question, not giving you a hard time.)

[eleanorigby]

How easy could it be to leave kids that may go hungry? I wish there were a way that the money could be tied up so that she couldn't get to it, but it was there for the kids. Trusts etc are all very good, but money put away for college doesn't help a kid who needs lunch or new underwear today.


And it sounds like the OP can't trust her to spend $ responsibly--which is probably one reason he sticks around.

I think the OP should try for custody.

I have similiar money issues (the lack of, not the irresponsibility) and so I am here until I get my Master's and a FT job. Then, we negotiate etc.


I keep making this personal, but I do so because I think it reflects somewhat the problems of the OP. It's not so easy to just up and leave with kids and money issues and problems. IMO, he has set a course-which in and of itself is huge-and is making his way there. How much time it takes is up to him.

Walking out that door is like stepping into an abyss-I'm not saying it shouldn't be done or won't be done. But some ground rules need to be established, like we won't use the kids as weapons against our spouse, won't withhold visits etc--maybe a mediator would be good, if not a counsellor. Some arbitrary third party who can see both sides.

[Belrix]

You know the most nerve-wracking thing a wife can say to a husband is, "We've got to talk."

"Oh Shit", you say to yourself and then signal your internal Sulu to raise the shields.

In a stunning reversal, I said that to my wife last night.

She has a job interview today. I asked her what that meant to her, where her mind was at.

Thankfully, I think we're on the same page. It's sad that that page is the dissolution of our marriage but at least we're not at odds with each other. I told her that I still loved her, that I still cared about what happens to her but I don't think I loved her in the same way that had years ago. I also told her that I have serious trust issues rigbt now. I dread seeing her on the computer because I'm now always suspicious she's (virtually) running around on me.

She even fessed up to "Vince" last night although she's saying she's not interested in him but he hasn't gotten that message yet.
=============
I scared myself yesterday. I called a day-care place (a local franchise) and asked about rates for the kids. Long-story short, it'd be $2000 a month for all-day care for three kids, $1600 a month for all-day care for my 4-year old and after-school care for the older two. That changes the financial picture in a big way, making me think, as mentioned above, that I might not be able to afford a separation. In my planning, I put daycare in at $1200/month (100/week per kid).

My wife assures me that there's private individuals near the school running daycares that will be a fraction of the above. I hope she's right. She said that as she was growing up in her divorced family, her mother would hire a reliable teenager during the summers to care for her. Anybody have any experience with that?
=============
As I said before, the family lawyer I spoke with said it'd be nearly impossible to get full custody of my kids. My wife isn't a child abuser, alcoholic, or drug addict so full custody is nearly impossible. I don't want to take the kids from her - she's not a bad mother, just a bad spender. I'm hoping it's a skill she can learn.

We've both committed to putting the kids first in this. My wife was the weapon of choice in her parents' divorce. She doesn't want that to happen with our kids. I'm all for that idea - I hope we can make it stick. Our counselor has suggested we keep the separation quiet from the kids for now - although my oldest strongly suspects. Kids, she says, need concrete plans and things are too much up in the air right now to give concrete reassurances.

My oldest told his grandparents, my parents, that his Mom & Dad were getting a divorce. I spoke with him privately and told him that Mom & Dad were having a lot of problems right now and that, no matter what happens, he and his siblings weren't to blame and that we'd always love and care for them. I know I'm going to have to reinforce this a bunch but I hope some of it stuck.

[Beadalin]

She said that as she was growing up in her divorced family, her mother would hire a reliable teenager during the summers to care for her. Anybody have any experience with that?
I was one of those responsible teens. In fact, I also took care of two kids for two entire summers during college (the family then moved, but we're still in close touch) -- this was about 8 years ago. Check into hiring a college kid; you can start by placing calls and/or ads with sorority houses and other student organizations.

Word-of-mouth also works well. Start putting out feelers among your coworkers to see what their childcare arrangements are.

You could also investigate getting an au pair -- there was a thread about this recently, I'll see if I can find it.

[eleanorigby]

Two things to keep in mind (I speak as a child of divorce): 1. when you disrespect the other parent, you shame the child. My mother spent years telling me that my Dad was an SOB-I look like a Mini-me of him. (and then, she went and remarried the SOB-so there ya go). and 2. best to enact the support and caring for the kids. IOW, live what you say. It does no good to any child to be told that Daddy or Mommy loves them very much, but then time is not spent with the kid, arrangements not made to ensure safety and well being etc.

Figure I'm preaching to the choir here, but I thought it needed saying.


Good for you for initiating a discussion with her. I have never used a commercial daycare service-my understanding of them is what you gain in reliability, you lose in cost. I have always used either a responsible teen (and there are many), or a SAHM or retired mom. All local, all much cheaper than daycare. Get references, get references, get references--and CALL and TALK to those references. There are guides to interviewing caregivers for kids out there-check the library or online for some.

So, you can't get full custody-fine, but try for the most custody you can. It matters. Kids need Dads, present and involved. (sorry, soapbox again).

[PunditLisa]

I never used an institutional daycare. I always contracted a SAHM who was interested in watching kids. Much cheaper.

[hajario]

My wife was the weapon of choice in her parents' divorce. She doesn't want that to happen with our kids.

This is a good sign if my experiece is any indication. My parents had a horrible divorce and my sister and I were often used as weapons. It didn't stop either of us from getting divorced ourselves but both of us did have very mature, amicable divorces. I don't have kids but she does.

[Cat Whisperer]

Belrix, it sounds like you're moving from the "what" to the "how." That is most definitely a positive step forward for you.

All of my friends who have kids seem to be using SAHM babysitter types.

Are you thinking of joint custody? That sounds like it might be best for everyone.

[Belrix]

Are you thinking of joint custody? That sounds like it might be best for everyone.
Yup - joint custody. Sometimes I think that I'd like full custody - I worry for the kids when they're not in my care. I don't fear she'll hurt them, just that they'll be too much financial drain on her. She's a loving mom and will do her best by them.

On the other hand, if I'm going to restart my life from near-scratch, then it'd be nice to have some time in which to do it. Joint custody would allow that.

The "how" questions weigh hard on me right now. It's all the more difficult when I don't have real numbers to play with with respect to her income and the cost of daycare. I'm a planner - I hate uncertainty - it makes me bonkers.

I've got this Excel spreadsheet all laid out so I can plan how much rent I can afford, how I can keep paying for her car, and all that. I just need some real numbers to plug in.

[Cat Whisperer]

There are lots of parental Dopers here (a significant amount of whom are also divorced) who can help you figure out the nuts and bolts of raising kids in two houses, Belrix. Maybe that should be your next thread. :)

One of the things I'm thinking of is that since you're worried about your kids not having enough money for stuff with your wife, you can still make it your business to buy them durable things when they're with you - clothes, school supplies, toys, etc., so you know they won't go short on these things. I think if you really sit down with someone knowledgeable, you'll find there are many ways to get skinny cats. People have been divorcing for a long time with fewer resources than you currently have.

[Belrix]

Maybe that should be your next thread. :)
Too late, I just wasted 15 minutes on these gems: Urinals (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=392786) and Mundane Superpowers (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=392784). :)

Nothing like spending a morning pondering these kinds of pressing questions.

[Yeticus Rex]

Belrix, I still see quite a bit of uncertainty on both of your behalfs. An actual separation (one of you out of the house and living elsewhere) of 3 to 6 months will take the uncertainty away, plus you will get an actual taste of what divorce is like on a trial basis without the permanency, and also what joint custody (and costs) would entail. This will help clear up the uncertainty with respect to the absence of the other spouse will either make you a happier person or a miserable person. Have a marriage counselor lay out the ground rules for this separation and do your best to follow them. See each other once a week or every other week, alone (like a dinner date) and try to keep it as a date/courting setting without the sex and see if there is still an interest. In the meantime, don't see anyone else yet....it will just complicate matters and not give you an honest chance to search your feelings towards her in her absence. The time and space between the two of you will definitely resolve any uncertainties that you may have, meaning you will have no regrets after you have made your decision on whether to stay together or divorce. Good luck.....thoughts and prayers for you and your family.

[Cat Whisperer]

Ooh, that's very good advice - I guess there's a reason they call it a trial separation sometimes. Time to shake things up and see what falls out. I think you've posted that you can't afford to separate right now, Belrix, but you can still be working towards that, I think.

You know, it occurs to me that I'm sounding like sort of a cheerleader for you ending your marriage, Belrix, and I'm not usually keen on people throwing in the towel on relationships just because they're hard, but in your case, your wife sounds pretty toxic for you. She may become an equal partner in helping you with the house, kids, and relationship at some point, but she isn't now, and you can't make her. Maybe a legal separation will shake her up enough to get her to start contributing to fixing the problems.