Battlestar Galactica 3.4 - "Exodus, Part Two" (spoilers) [Archive]

Cervaise

10-20-2006, 01:30 PM

All of this has had spoilers before, and all of this will have spoilers again.

Spoiler policy: If it's aired, or if it's simply speculation, no need for a spoiler box. If it's from a future episode as revealed in interviews or by other means, or if it's speculation based on same, put it in a spoiler box, and provide a label as to the general nature of the spoiler so we can decide individually whether or not we want to spoil ourselves (e.g., "Saved by the Bell actor cast as Imperious Leader...").

Where we're at:

Lee Adama needs to decide where he stands on his father's potentially suicidal rescue run.

Saul Tigh is paradoxically more miserable and more joyfully alive than he's been in a long, long time.

Ellen Tigh loves him well but not at all wisely.

Brother Cavil's kvetching suggests that all may not be well with the Cylon download.

Not to mention the possibility that the Cylon skin jobs are fracturing into different philosophical camps.

One of the Number Threes (D'Anna) knows about Baby Poptart.

Amanda Plummer is her own particular brand of kooky hot.

Anders is a much more interesting character when Starbuck isn't around.

And speaking of whom, what does she really think about her own possible spawn?

Oh, and Baltar is skidding ever closer to the edge of total insanity. Woo hoo!

Tonight at 9pm.

Kiros

10-20-2006, 02:02 PM

I just checked the TV listings and it looks like we have two hours again tonight! That makes me all tingly inside, in a good way.

I don't know whether to love or hate all the people who got me to catch up on Battlestar over the summer - I hate that I'm staying home on a Friday night, but I've never been so excited about staying home on a Friday night.

Kiros

10-20-2006, 02:04 PM

Meant to put this at the end of the last post

- or are they just teasing me and showing the same thing back to back? Either way I'm excited after the setup that was last week's.

Oakminster

10-20-2006, 02:06 PM

Can we get a clarification about spoiler policy for web content? Last week there was a short clip of "bonus content" on the web. A password was announced during the episode, and then you could use the password to view the video. Most of the video was just commentary from actors and short clips from the episode--but there was some apparrently new canon material shown at the very end, which appears likely to resurface in tonight's episode. I assumed it was spoiler-able last week, but now I don't know if I have to spoiler that info in this thread still--and there may be more "bonus content" after tonight's episode....

Oakminster

10-20-2006, 02:09 PM

Last week, they showed the same episode twice on Friday night, with another program sandwhiched between showings. I'm all for two hours of Galaticy Goodness* if we get it, though.

*shamelessly stolen from someone in one of the spoiler threads.

lawoot

10-20-2006, 03:10 PM

My system shows Sci-fi playing the same episode, back-to-back...

Grossbottom

10-20-2006, 03:23 PM

Hah? Two hours or one hour? Double the awesomeness would be...awesome. In other new, I'm full of steak.

silenus

10-20-2006, 03:28 PM

It's one hour, shown twice, according to the SciFi website.

Grossbottom

10-20-2006, 03:30 PM

News. News. Because the steak has clogged my brain. But why would they show the same show twice? This is highly irregular.

Kiros

10-20-2006, 03:31 PM

My bad on that... it's pretty stupid, though. I understand the re-airing a few hours later as they usually do (to run during PST prime), but back to back? That's just tease-y.

Either way, T minus four and a half hours!

Dante

10-20-2006, 03:32 PM

I predict that Gaius Baltar will almost, but not quite, cry.

Seriously, they must have a PA whose sole job is to keep James Callis hydrated.

Cervaise

10-20-2006, 03:39 PM

Can we get a clarification about spoiler policy for web content?Good question. Let's say those things are "information from future episodes" so they go into spoiler boxes, with an accompanying label to the effect of "from scifi.com's official online sneak preview video, information about what happens to Dualla over the next two weeks" or whatever.

Re the teary-eyed Baltar, speaking as someone with an acting background, I've noticed that Mr. Callis occasionally resorts to the actorly trick of "not blinking for long periods" in order to get those quivering gleams on his eyelids. It's not exactly cheating, I guess, if the audience buys it, but if you know the technique it's kind of hard not to notice.

levdrakon

10-20-2006, 04:00 PM

Re the teary-eyed Baltar, speaking as someone with an acting background, I've noticed that Mr. Callis occasionally resorts to the actorly trick of "not blinking for long periods" in order to get those quivering gleams on his eyelids. It's not exactly cheating, I guess, if the audience buys it, but if you know the technique it's kind of hard not to notice.

Never really thought about it. I figured you're either really good at crying whenever you want or you pluck a nose-hair right before the scene or someone off camera slowly jabs you with a needle or they have special tearing-up eye drops or something. The not-blinking trick makes sense though. Now that I'm onto it, I'll be watching for it too.

Mostly what I want to know; is Chamalla-root snorting Oracle real or not?

Is knee-capped D'Anna going to off herself and get a new body or walk around on crutches for awhile?

carnivorousplant

10-20-2006, 04:19 PM

Is knee-capped D'Anna going to off herself and get a new body or walk around on crutches for awhile?

An interesting question. How much can you injure them that they must put up with constant pain, but not enough to deal with the agony of resurrection?
Cool.

Oakminster

10-20-2006, 04:29 PM

levdrakon

10-20-2006, 04:40 PM

Another quick question. If D'Anna decides she doesn't want to resurrect just yet, is Doc Cottle going to fix her up? Is he the only doctor on the whole planet, Cylon or otherwise? Why did Doc Cottle have Cylon blood on him too. Was is just splatter, or is he - as every good doctor should - providing care to everyone, without regard to species, race, political or religious affiliation, sexual orientation or make & model number?

Aguecheek

10-20-2006, 04:56 PM

Tonight at 9pm....8 central. :dubious:

Cervaise

10-20-2006, 05:16 PM

...8 central.8 is Sharon/Boomer, actually. We don't know what number the main brain is yet.

Loopydude

10-20-2006, 05:20 PM

I think the Chamalla-root snorting Oracle is a real entity of some sort--possibly a sleeper cylon. As to whether she has actual powers of prophecy--I dunno. She's either an excellent cold reading con, a cylon agent, a human operative, or an actual prophet. Really don't think she's another "imaginary friend" character--two of those in one series is quite enough.

I'm expecting the big break out to have Lee/Pegasus save the day when all looks grim for Adama/Galactica....

These are two biggies for me, in terms of speculation. The previews at the end of the last episode suggest Lee will indeed swoop in...but to save the day? Probably. This show seems averse to killing off principals who aren't actively looking for another job.

As for the prophet: My guess is she's the real deal. I want her to be a Cylon sleeper, but she just knows too damn much to be either that or an uncanny cold reader.

My expectations for this episode are pretty low. I think we're going to have some pretty cool space combat and some decent suspense related to the whole rescue, some good Orange Fireball entertainment. It'll be fun as long as you don't think about it too hard, which I'm priming myself to avoid doing so as to not be annoyed by the low standards set for the series thus far.

My hope is in future episides. This, and the prior three, were a hurried cleanup job, and maybe once they've fled New Vichy Bagdad and get back into space again, the tatters of earlier narrative threads left tangled and forgotten, things will improve. I'm looking forward to the new ideas that seem likely to come. The old ones are mostly played out, or were squandered.

Loopydude

10-20-2006, 05:33 PM

More thoughts on Lee: There's another reason they aren't going to kill him any time soon: He and Kara haven't done the nasty yet. At the end of last season, they lobbed a pretty big matzo ball out there, with Kara begging for antibiotics for Anders, and Lee uninclined to even pick up the phone if Capt. Thrace was on the other end. It seems pretty clear there's some bad blood between Lee and Kara that goes beyond her tactless behavior during her reuinion with Anders. Lee's especially mad because, despite the fact she did something truly unforgiveable, he's probably been beating it like it owes him money, instead of getting busy with his wife, and it's Kara he's thinking about. Sexual tension gets eyeballs. I expect the writers to honor (or, perhaps, pander to) that.

carnivorousplant

10-20-2006, 05:41 PM

8 is Sharon/Boomer, actually. We don't know what number the main brain is yet.

Do I have to link to that thread about 30cm fresh water sting rays mysteriously appearing in folks toilets?
Enough with the puns, already.

:)

silenus

10-20-2006, 05:47 PM

John Mace

10-20-2006, 06:19 PM

News. News. Because the steak has clogged my brain. But why would they show the same show twice? This is highly irregular.
Don't they often do that? I know it's S.O.P. on FX for shows like The Shield and Nip/Tuck, etc. I usually set my DVR to record a few extra minutes, and I seem to remember getting the begining of the show again in the last few minutes of the recording pertty regularly. Plus they repeat the thing about a million times during the week.

Dante

10-20-2006, 06:39 PM

One more thought on Lee: He can't bite it very soon, otherwise why have him wear the fat-suit? That has to slowly disappear as he works his way back into shape as a metaphor for something or another. Otherwise there is no reason for it. So Lee is safe for awhile, and, by extension, so is Pegasus.I was thinking he'd do it in a montage, just before going to rescue the Galactica. All to the tune of "You're the best (http://yourethebest.ytmnd.com/)" from Karate Kid.

Oakminster

10-20-2006, 07:16 PM

Should we start a dead pool for Ellen? I'm thinking she's not going to survive the escape. If Tigh doesn't do it, she may conveniently catch a round in a firefight....

levdrakon

10-20-2006, 07:20 PM

Should we start a dead pool for Ellen? I'm thinking she's not going to survive the escape. If Tigh doesn't do it, she may conveniently catch a round in a firefight....

...and wake up in a tub of goo... bwa, ha, ha!

ElvisL1ves

10-20-2006, 07:20 PM

I don't think we'll see the soothsayer again, or will even know if she's real or not. She was just a plot device to get the Cylons to believe the humans have a Baby of Mass Destruction, and now that's been accomplished. They had to find out somehow, and this was an especially artistic way of advancing that plot point.

carnivorousplant

10-20-2006, 07:29 PM

...and wake up in a tub of goo... bwa, ha, ha!
Exellent possibility, although I think it would suck.

I think there will be no mass slaughter of the Vichy. Human lives are too few and the gene pool too small to kill anyone. Slavery or indentured servitude, perhaps. Some incaraction or limit of mobility and rights.

silenus

10-20-2006, 07:30 PM

Loopydude

10-20-2006, 08:00 PM

Exellent possibility, although I think it would suck.

It would suck because it would be contrary to everything we've learned about Cylon skin jobs. Ellen's been around too long to be a Cylon.

carnivorousplant

10-20-2006, 08:21 PM

Ellen's been around too long to be a Cylon.

Looks like we're gonna find out.
Dammit.

alphaboi867

10-20-2006, 08:25 PM

Holy shit!!1 Galactica is actually going to land!

Dante

10-20-2006, 08:30 PM

...or not...

alphaboi867

10-20-2006, 08:36 PM

Leave the little monster behind Kara, she's not your daughter.

Apos

10-20-2006, 08:43 PM

One more thought on Lee: He can't bite it very soon, otherwise why have him wear the fat-suit? That has to slowly disappear as he works his way back into shape as a metaphor for something or another. Otherwise there is no reason for it. So Lee is safe for awhile, and, by extension, so is Pegasus.

Spoiler for this episode as of 40minutes in:
Oops. Bad time to make one half of that prediction. :)

Grossbottom

10-20-2006, 08:44 PM

Nooooo they blew it up. :mad:

Oh well, we knew it had to go sometime, taking out three basestars is a fitting funeral guard for a good ship.

Apos

10-20-2006, 08:47 PM

Hey goofball, it's not over yet...

alphaboi867

10-20-2006, 08:48 PM

Hera/Isis/13

MacTech

10-20-2006, 08:49 PM

Frakkin' *AMAZING* episode this week....

Galactica re-entering NC's atmosphere, and launching vipers while doing it, then performing an *ATMOSPHERIC JUMP!*

Vipers providing A/G air support roles, taking out Centurion gunnery posts

the Pegasus just frakkin' *UNLOADING* on the basestars, and dying with honor, taking out multiple Basestars in her dying moments...

Qapla! Pegasus, you have died with Honor, dying in battle and saving your people, if Sto-Vo-Kor has a place for warships, you are among the most elite, highly honored ships

Mombuck *STILL* needs to introduce Kasey to "Mr. Airlock"

oh FRAK, Balty and Six have the Pop-Tart, now Xenabot's got her....

Dante

10-20-2006, 08:51 PM

Ouch.

MacTech

10-20-2006, 08:53 PM

Ahhh... Leo's a crafty ol' Toaster, so Kasey *was* human after all, i guess she won't need to be introduced to Mr. Airlock....

Apos

10-20-2006, 08:53 PM

but when it is...

holy crap, that was a short prophecy about Hera: made in one episode, fulfilled in the next

And THANK GOODNESS about Kara's "child" NEVER trust that asshole!

Apos

10-20-2006, 08:55 PM

AHHHHH what are you going to your beard!!!!!?!?!??!?!?!?!

carnivorousplant

10-20-2006, 08:58 PM

Well, some of that sucked and some of it didn't.
:)

alphaboi867

10-20-2006, 09:00 PM

Roslin looks happy back in her chair. Is Adama simply going to install her as President? It looks like Tigh's gonna arrange a shitload of lynchings.

Grossbottom

10-20-2006, 09:01 PM

I'm just amazed at how much content they crammed into the four episodes we've seen so far. What an awesome story arc, and I feel like all the characters have been given a fresh slate.

carnivorousplant

10-20-2006, 09:03 PM

Qapla! Pegasus, you have died with Honor, dying in battle and saving your people, if Sto-Vo-Kor has a place for warships, you are among the most elite, highly honored ships
.
But there is now one Battlestar in the universe.
And how many basestars?

Kiros

10-20-2006, 09:08 PM

That was pretty damn sweet.

It was the easy way out with the not-Kara-kid, but I think it was probably the right way to do it.

Really curious as to what happens next... do we go back to "we need X resource! let's send out Boomer and have her miraculously find it!" of the first season before they were really comfortable as a series? Do we do more of the find-Earth-mysticism? Or will (hopefully) the writers pull out something new and original? Mmmmm, wantmore.

(random other question: how will they fit in Anders, Samuel T. in a non-guerilla-warfare mode? we know he's capable and a leader-type, but short of pulling a history of flight training out of his ass, what's he going to be doing on Galactica?)

Apos

10-20-2006, 09:10 PM

In retrospect you sort of knew that Pegasus was going to bite it. In many ways, this series is mirroring the major points of the old series. Pegasus appears and then is destroyed. Plus Baltar is now going to jet around the universe with the Cylons, just like Count Baltar did (though for different reasons).

Apos

10-20-2006, 09:17 PM

I'm betting that Anders is given rank.

Lightray

10-20-2006, 09:18 PM

That was so frackin' cool!

I guess we've now settled the question about atmospheric jumps for BattleStars.

And we've got one more clue on Amanda Plummer's character -- at least her tent was real.

Although BSG kind of slowed down after the Pegasus episodes last season, it's definatly back on the rollercoaster tracks.

alphaboi867

10-20-2006, 09:19 PM

I'm just amazed at how much content they crammed into the four episodes we've seen so far. What an awesome story arc, and I feel like all the characters have been given a fresh slate.

I know. The episodes only feel about 15 minutes long!

random other question: how will they fit in Anders, Samuel T. in a non-guerilla-warfare mode? we know he's capable and a leader-type, but short of pulling a history of flight training out of his ass, what's he going to be doing on Galactica?)

Marine officer? What's gonna become of Tigh? Lee's almost certainly going to become Adama's XO since he's the second highest ranking officer in the entire fleet. Will Baltar ever fall into the hands of the Colonials again? Nobody even bothered to ask where he was. He's become Philippe Pétain and Judas Iscariot rolled into one.

Oakminster

10-20-2006, 09:20 PM

WOWZA

That was an hour well spent. This episode delivered the goods. Major surprise for me when they sacrificed Pegasus. I'm guessing Lee will fair pretty well with any Board of Inquiry on the matter :D Might see Lee in the XO slot. Thinking maybe Tigh will semi-retire or something. Maybe run for President?

Figured Ellen was buying the farm. Did not figure she'd be making her exit in the first segment.

Xenabot finding and grabbing Hera so soon seems contrived. Baltar immediately recognized the child's aura or whatever...a sign that he may be a toaster?

Awarding a minor ding for ending the Kasey angle that way. That was too easy a way out for the writers.

Adama on the bridge seemed to be channeling Gordon Lightfoot with the "It's been an honor" line. Nice crowd pop for the old man on the hangar deck.

Looks like next week we'll start an arc on dealing with the goodlife. The preview has lots of dark gritty goodness teasing....

More later. Poker tourney starting soon....:D

Apos

10-20-2006, 09:26 PM

carnivorousplant

10-20-2006, 09:32 PM

In retrospect you sort of knew that Pegasus was going to bite it. In many ways, this series is mirroring the major points of the old series.
Didn't watch the old series save for a few WTF moments with flying motorcycles.
RE Pegasus. I hope Lee got all the cocktail peanuts out of First Class. You might need a few things like that for up keep on the last battlestar. :(

Apos

10-20-2006, 09:38 PM

Oh and hey: wasn't that the first appearance of Baltar's inner Six when a real Six was around? It was subtle, but there was a Six on his back when he first picked up the baby talking about it being some new god shit.... and then it cut to a real six about ten feet back going "what's that?"

Lightray

10-20-2006, 09:39 PM

Didn't watch the old series save for a few WTF moments with flying motorcycles.
Gah! Bad plant! Naughty!

Flying motorcycles are in Galactica: 80, the series with Wolfman Jack and creepy Dr. Zee and only one good episode at all.

The "old series" is Battlestar: Galactica, with Zarek as Apollo, way before he needed to moisturize, moisturize, moisturize.

ted_baskerville@yahoo.com

10-20-2006, 09:54 PM

Shouldn't Tom Zarek be President? He was VP.

Clark K

10-20-2006, 10:01 PM

Where did the term "goodlife" come from? I don't remember hearing it on the show. Is it a Straight Dope coinage?

Pretty good episode.

Galactica's planetary appearance was a great spectacle.

I thought Ellen's demise came a little early? MIght have been nice to see it next episode or to have Sol off her as their ship was lifting off.

I'm glad not to have a prolonged mystery about Kara's "child." Better to show immediately what a mindfuck she'd been put through.

Didn't understand why Pegasus couldn't have jumped out once Galactica was safe.

The evacuation of the ships was too easy. I wish a couple of them had been taken out by raiders as they were lifting off.

simster

10-20-2006, 10:02 PM

I havent read any part of the trhead yet... but before I catch up, I have to simply say:

Holy Frakkin' Shit!

That is the first time I watched any repeat of any show immediately following the first run...

"Not Everyone..."

carnivorousplant

10-20-2006, 10:04 PM

Gah! Bad plant! Naughty!

Flying motorcycles are in Galactica: 80, the series with Wolfman Jack and creepy Dr. Zee and only one good episode at all.

The "old series" is Battlestar: Galactica, with Zarek as Apollo, way before he needed to moisturize, moisturize, moisturize.

It was the same two guys who looked like a walking ad for Liquid Prell.

:)

2) It totally fit with Leoben's character: he's a lying, dishonest sonofabitch: what he did tore up Kara's heart big time

If Starbuck needs a heart, she will have a new one issued from ship's stores.

Lightray

10-20-2006, 10:06 PM

Didn't understand why Pegasus couldn't have jumped out once Galactica was safe.
The whole idea was to get the civilian ships off New Caprica. Had Pegasus jumped out once Galactica was safe and gone, that would have left at least two -- and, I think, three -- Base Stars over New Caprica. None of the remaining civilian ships would have made it out at that point.

That's why both Lee and Adama knew it was a one-way mission: they had to give the civilian ships time to get away, and since the BaseStars were going to outnumber them, they'd only do it by sacrificing a BattleStar. They just disagreed on which one to sacrifice.

Loopydude

10-20-2006, 10:09 PM

Pretty much what I expected: Absurd, but fun to watch. I mean, Pegasus fragmenting and taking out two Bastestars? Frakking come on. I bet the writers were laughing their asses off over that one. Because it was absurd. And fun.

And uh, 3? Why nuke the city? They're all gone, silly Toaster. "Run, Baltar! Save humanity!" Um, dumbrak, they saved themselves like an hour ago. I dunno, maybe there was some overlapping chronology there, but why would 6 and Baltar have to worry about the nuke one way or the other, Hera or no? Everyone's gone, for frak's sake. Oh, well, minor nitpick.

The free-falling Galactica was very, very cool. Good Orange Fireballs all around! And yeah, you just knew one way or another Pegasus was gonna bite it. Big loss, though. It's just the Bucket once again!

Gods that was a ridiculous end to the New Caprica Occupation. Whatever. It's done. At least they pulled off a very competent Dumb Action Flick. Very exciting, lots of stuff going boom to distract the cerebral cortex before you utilize it, hair-raising stunts, all of that explodin' goodness.

And although it felt a little rushed, Ellen's execution* was quite moving. I think we can expect Saul Tigh's character to grow considerably from the sometimes cartoonish drunk, angry sumbitch. The Executive Officer is going to be a cold, ruthless, motivated angry sumbitch, I'm thinking, hungry for Cylon blood. Vengeance is what he'll be after. Expect some very hard feelings between him and Anders, and that's gonna drag in his old antagonist, Starbuck, I'm guessing.

*If she wakes up in a frakking tank I'm gonna shit!

carnivorousplant

10-20-2006, 10:10 PM

I thought Ellen's demise came a little early?
The others would have killed her then and there if Tigh hadn't.

Didn't understand why Pegasus couldn't have jumped out once Galactica was safe.

The crew had to leave lest they couldn't jump before Galactica escaped.

The evacuation of the ships was too easy. I wish a couple of them had been taken out by raiders as they were lifting off.
That, Sir, is just mean.

:)

simster

10-20-2006, 10:10 PM

Actually, I thought the Kasey thing was handled in the best way possible:

1) Kara won't be dragging around a kid
2) It totally fit with Leoben's character: he's a lying, dishonest sonofabitch: what he did tore up Kara's heart big time

I too think this was the 'right' way to answer the "waht is kasey" storyline... Kara's part of it is far from over... unlike a different Captain, she gave in to her captor's wishes.

I liked how they handled Ellen's 'end'... She knew not what befell her, as fitting an end as could be had, and in the hands of Tigh... who was always there when she needed him.

Loopydude

10-20-2006, 10:17 PM

I kinda want to just forget the whole Kara's-pseudo-poptart thing ever happened. I have a feeling I'm not going to be allowed to do that.

minty green

10-20-2006, 10:24 PM

The whole idea was to get the civilian ships off New Caprica. Had Pegasus jumped out once Galactica was safe and gone, that would have left at least two -- and, I think, three -- Base Stars over New Caprica. None of the remaining civilian ships would have made it out at that point.Which would be a perfectly good explanation, except for the part where the civilian ships were all jumping to FTL about 100 feet off the ground. Heck, why bother to take off at all?

Pretty good episode, overall. Horrible opening speech with Lee and Dualla, however. God, who wrote that overwrought shit? On the other hand, the exchange between XenaBot and Baltar about the consequences vs. the necessity of leaving was pretty sharp. How could two equally cliche' speeches have come off so differently?

Glad to see the Pop Tart fall into the hands of the toasters, since that seems like a fairly promising storyline for the promised "Plan." The Kara/Kacey storyline ended up exactly where I thought it would, but Katee Sackhoff pulled off the reaction extremely well. And Tigh's "Not everybody" was just heartbreaking. Good stuff.

Oakminster

10-20-2006, 10:25 PM

Where did the term "goodlife" come from? I don't remember hearing it on the show. Is it a Straight Dope coinage?

In this context, it's an Oakieism (TM). Inspired by (mumble stolen directly from mumble) Fred Saberhagen's most excellent Berserker stories, used to refer to humans who chose to serve the machines (Cylons)

MaddyStrut

10-20-2006, 10:30 PM

That was a thrill ride and a half!

I can't believe I got choked up watching Ellen Tigh croak. I think I've said this in every BG thread this season, but I still can't believe how much they got me to feel sorry for her after the way I hated her last season! Saul really looked wrecked after that. I can see him going either of two ways: he could become a vengeful hunter of collaborators or be too tired and beaten to continue the fight.

Galactica falling out of the sky and launching vipers was awesome.Who thinks of these things? Between this and the double fake out over the fuel yards in a previous season, they've come up with some brilliant tactics.

I was pretty sure the Pegasus was coming to Galactica's rescue, but the way it was filmed was incredible. First we see Adama resigned to getting blown to bits. Then they show Galactica just getting pounded by basestars only to pan out and show some artillery come hurtling at a basestar, and then the Pegasus comes into view. That was very well done.

Loved, loved, loved seeing Pegasus take out those basestars as her last move. Again, I suspected she'd be destroyed, but the scene was so very well done. Seeing Pegasus (like Galactica earlier) getting pounded and on her last legs, then see her crash into a basestar only to see her take out another one in the explosion (improbable as it may be) was just awesome.

I liked the resolution of the Kasey (Casey?) story. I had all these speculations: is she a Starbuck clone? a young cylon? Starbuck's actual child (shudder)? I never considered the simple, obvious choice that she was just a random kid with the right coloring that Leoban grabbed off the street. It was a total :smack: moment for me!

The scene with Starbuck looking shell shocked, Tigh looking exhausted, and everyone else cheering with joy while Adama looks over his shoulder at his old friend was also very well done.

One thing I didn't like. The timing was confusing with the evacuation vs. the cylon nuke. When Baltar and Caprica Six went to stop D'Anna, I kept thinking "why, aren't the ships already away?" Obviously not, but it was confusing for a moment.

It looks like Roslyn is the president again. I'm not sure how colonial law provides for succession when the acting president turns traitor, but I wonder if it matters. Who the hell is going to challenge her?

Loopydude

10-20-2006, 10:32 PM

Pretty good episode, overall. Horrible opening speech with Lee and Dualla, however. God, who wrote that overwrought shit?

And I don't think you'd get less chemistry if you mixed helium and argon together. Could it be deliberate, this "I'm proud to have you as my wife!" crap? Because you do know, don't you, that Lee has a permanent torch for Kara. It's just so frakking obvious that's going to rear its ugly head at some point.

Lightray

10-20-2006, 10:33 PM

Which would be a perfectly good explanation, except for the part where the civilian ships were all jumping to FTL about 100 feet off the ground. Heck, why bother to take off at all?
Presumably, had the BaseStars not been engaged, they could have shot down the colonial ships even if they were only 100-ft. off the ground. Otherwise why have the Galactica jump in at all? Just have Boomer steal the jump keys and jump directly away.

... Well, we all know why they had the Galactica jump in -- for the frackin' cool spaceship battle scenes. But that necessarily dictates that the backstory support that reasoning. Hence, BaseStars must be able to target into the atmosphere, thereby providing a threat to the civilian ships that Galactica had to neutralize.

silenus

10-20-2006, 10:34 PM

Who the hell is going to challenge her?

As noted up-thread....Zarek. He is next in line.

medstar

10-20-2006, 10:42 PM

I have a feeling that Starbuck and Leoben aren't finished yet. That numb look of surprise on Starbuck's face told me she realized she'd been played superbly by Leoben yet again, first in the interrogation episode, when Leoben introduces her to Casey the first time, and now this episode where Casey's real mother smoothly snatches her up from Starbuck.

alphaboi867

10-20-2006, 10:46 PM

As noted up-thread....Zarek. He is next in line.
He might just decide to serve as her deputy (at least for awhile) rather than challenging her outright.

carnivorousplant

10-20-2006, 10:49 PM

As noted up-thread....Zarek. He is next in line.

Not unless he is a real, X^2 bastard.
Of course, with Ron Moore at the helm, he may very well be. :)

Loopydude

10-20-2006, 10:53 PM

Seem's to me Zarek has had a change of heart, but that change may have been very context-dependent. Once they're all back on the run, and it's politics as usual, he might turn into a frustrated revolutionary again. At any rate, I don't think he was faking his remorse over the choice to settle on New Caprica, nor his concern for Roslin's safety during the evacuation.

minty green

10-20-2006, 10:55 PM

... Well, we all know why they had the Galactica jump in -- for the frackin' cool spaceship battle scenes.Correct. But one cannot simultaneously recognize this reality and still bitch about the tactical realism with any persuasiveness. Heck, one nuke dropped in from orbit and the whole colony is dead. Fact is, the battle was just frakkin' cool.

(Can't wait for the HD version to be broadcast on UHD in a month or two. That's gonna be one hell of a good looking battle.)

But that necessarily dictates that the backstory support that reasoning. Hence, BaseStars must be able to target into the atmosphere, thereby providing a threat to the civilian ships that Galactica had to neutralize.Except that the civvies were already jumping by the time the Pegasus went kamikaze.

Look, I agree the sci fi continuity could have been handled better. But do you want more exposition, or do you just want to have a damn good show? They erred on the side of the latter this time, and I can't really fault them for that. Not too much, anyway.

MaddyStrut

10-20-2006, 10:57 PM

As noted up-thread....Zarek. He is next in line.

Sure, Zarek's still around, but I don't see him getting much support even if he does have a better legal claim. He helped lead the push to settle New Caprica. I think most people are going to believe that was a mistake. Roslyn's certainly got a huge public following now. I doubt anyone can challenge that public support at least for the near future.

Plus, Zarek was on the list for extermination along with Roslyn. He could have been removed from the VP post.

Loopydude

10-20-2006, 11:04 PM

I may as well bring this up now, since one of the last scenes had one of them in it: The "imaginary friends" of both Baltar and Six. I mean, it's been, what, four months? Did it not occur to Baltar at some point to ask Six, now that they're back together, in the flesh, about that copy of her running around in his noggin? She feeling shy about him dropping into her consciousness unannounced? Just never came up?

carnivorousplant

10-20-2006, 11:14 PM

Did it not occur to Baltar at some point to ask Six, now that they're back together, in the flesh, about that copy of her running around in his noggin?

Maybe he's too busy trying to find little blue pills.

Or maybe, Pal, you've got a problem, a problem confusing people with the facts.

That's a damn good question, one I'd like to hear Ron Moore address on a pod cast while he's drinking Scotch I can't afford, placating his Wife and counting his money.

alphaboi867

10-20-2006, 11:19 PM

Oakminster

10-20-2006, 11:20 PM

On the imaginary friends deal, has either of the real versions ever displayed knowledge of something that would only be known to the imaginary version? I've been under the impression that each was used as a literary device to reveal inner conflict in the real versions....like a personification of the Id or somesuch....

Loopydude

10-20-2006, 11:27 PM

Well, I mean, it was a rather pressing question a few episodes back, if I recall. Is she a chip? A delusion? An angel of the Cylon god? He got his head scanned, went through all kinds of crazy shit to try and find out what in the holy frak was going on with this woman only he can see and...he forgot? Granted, a lot has been going on during the occupation, but still. Mental 6 and Meat 6 can even be in the same scene together and...no biggie? No urge to say "Darling, I was meaning to ask you...I keep seeing you when you're not there! You wind up knowing all these impossibly unknowable things...well, not you really...it's hard to follow, but, anyway, did you put a frakking chip in my head or what?"

Loopydude

10-20-2006, 11:37 PM

Wouldn't it be weird if both inner-6 and inner-Baltar knew about eachother?

I gotta wonder if that could actually happen. Though I also wonder if mental Baltar is just going to be dropped, never to appear again.

carnivorousplant

10-20-2006, 11:44 PM

It's too late for me to try and figure this out.
I need cigarettes.
I haven't smoked in six years.
Damn you.

:)

Grossbottom

10-21-2006, 10:00 AM

They've lost a bunch of civilians, I'd like to see them take a few of the civie ships, armor up and put some hardpoints on them. Like escort frigates for the BSG now that Pegasus is toast. That could make for another story arc.

I'm still just in awe of Ron Moore's continued creativity. The whole New Caprica story could have gone into the toilet, but he pulled it out and stripped boring layers off the characters and added new ones. Ellen's death was an amazing scene, and with her gone, Tigh can either descend into an alcoholic hell or become the ultimate hard man. Starbuck will have an interesting reunion with Leoben in the future, but she's free to become her old self. Lee's still a threat to the fleet's food supply, but I felt like he got some of his resolve back. Cat proved herself as a CAG, and Helo as a bridge officer.

Whereas watching Lost has become an exercise in been-there, done-that, BSG managed a complete reinvigoration in the third season. I love this show!

(Only thing that bothers me is that everyone got fracking married. I think this will seriously mess up the military aspect of the show, and I don't want it to become Days of Our Lives on a Battlestar. I really hope that doesn't happen.)

John Mace

10-21-2006, 10:00 AM

Great story telling, again! My favorite part was not so much when Starbuck knifed the toaster, but when she twisted the knife just right. And I thought the thing with the kid was off-- she seemed way too old to fit the timeline.

So, is Apollo going to drop some el-beez by next ep?

lawoot

10-21-2006, 10:13 AM

Mahaloth

10-21-2006, 10:49 AM

So what happened to Gaeta? Was he still on Colonial One when "President" Roslyn showed up, or did he take off on another ship? If he's back with the fleet, will he be an early lynch victim, as few know what he did during the occupation?

The previews seem to indicate he'll be in some serious trouble next week, as the highest ranking "traitor" to make it back.

silenus

10-21-2006, 10:51 AM

That is going to be a key question. There are going to be more allusions to post-Vichy France, with collaborators shaved and marched through the corridors. Count on some wrong accusations, some missed ones, and lots of tension all around. From Moore, you cab bet on it. I really hope Tigh goes cold and hard instead of alcoholic. We've seen the latter too often...it's cliche. Put him in charge of rooting out the goodlifes, and let him learn a little humanity in the process.

OK, so I was wrong about the Pegasus. :D

It was worth it.

Archergal

10-21-2006, 11:12 AM

<hijack>
Anybody want to make a Cylon jack o'lantern? (http://www.evilmadscientist.com/article.php/CylonOLantern) ??
</hijack>

Loopydude

10-21-2006, 11:41 AM

That is way cool!

If they can make one look like Tricia Helfer, I'll really be impressed!

anu-la1979

10-21-2006, 12:18 PM

Wow. Just wow. There have been some weak moments this season (everyone's excellent commentary on the piss-poor beginning of the last episode) but some scenes in this episode-Battlestar descending to New Caprica, the entire reset.

I teared up. I'm so happy I download this show off of I-tunes (bought the season pass...I don't have cable) so I can watch stuff over again. I'll still buy the DVDs at the end of the season, though.

Cripes, I feel like a smoke after watching this show!!

anu-la1979

10-21-2006, 12:20 PM

Also, why is every man and woman on this show intensely fucking hot? Even EJO is a total fox.

Cervaise

10-21-2006, 12:54 PM

Okay, this episode rocked. It's not perfect, as others have noted (another nitpick, which I think I'm the first to point out unless I missed it: it's rather a massive coincidence for Starbuck to be introducing her "kid" juuust as the real mother is walking by, which got a fleeting :rolleyes: from me) But... the stuff that's good? is reeeeeeeeeally good. I counted three (four? have to look at it again) moments where my jaw simply fell open.

One of those (I'm joining the crowd here) was the death of Ellen. They didn't redeem her, exactly; far from it. But they pulled off an even neater trick: they took this horrible, awful, selfish and manipulative woman, whose death we've been looking forward to for a season and a half, and instead of trying to reverse that opinion, they deepened her, by stripping away any perception of senseless evil and showing that while she's a bad human being because she's self-centered and short-sighted and not very smart and ultimately self-destructive, she's still a human being. And Tigh, despite everything, loves her, and she really, really loves him. Her death, in this context, is not so much justice, as it is tragic, in the old Greek sense, that is, she's undone when her own flaws and misjudgments catch up to her.

And all the political parallels come into focus here, and pay off. I have no idea what Roslin thinks she's doing, simply taking charge without a mandate, but knowing this show, I'd be enormously surprised if they simply let it slide. There will be consequences to this.

(Incidentally, watching last week's episode and this one back-to-back, my viewing companion and I reflected on all the people who are trying to argue that the show's story is some sort of explicit and deliberate allegory on Iraq and Iraq alone. These people, obviously, have never seen the classic film The Battle of Algiers. The issues in the show have much greater historical resonance than simply the headlines of the moment. Just thought I should point that out.)

And next week looks hugely intense, and like a totally logical follow-on to the plot so far. As always, as long as the Cylons are at arm's length, and there's no unifying enemy, humans are perfectly happy to resurrect old battles and fight with one another. Gaeta is screwed.

So: A couple of minor speed bumps here and there, but otherwise, a totally, totally satisfying pile of Galacticky goodness. Two glowing red thumbs up.

Cat Whisperer

10-21-2006, 12:54 PM

Just a little aside, because I know how us geeks like details, BGS has strong Canadian links, and the name of the group flying manouvers in the season opener were called Snowbirds - I have no confirmation on this, but I suspect that was a nod to the Canadian precision acrobatic flying team, the Snowbirds. (http://www.snowbirds.dnd.ca/site/index_e.asp)

If someone has already posted this somewhere, never mind. :)

Everyone marrying up is a problem for me, too. When you have a pool of what, 25,000 or so humans to re-start the race from, you're going to want every woman having a baby by every man possible. Mix up the genes as much as you can, you know? Now that I think of it, that is maybe my one complaint with the show - too much military fight and not enough day-to-day how does an entire race survive something like this. It was okay for the first couple seasons, because they were still in fight-or-flight mode, but after three (four?) years, they need to start finding their new way of living.

anu-la1979

10-21-2006, 12:59 PM

I don't get next week's previews on the I-Tunes eps, what's going to happen? Surely Gaeta can prove he's the inside informant? If they kill him I will be pissed!

Cat Whisperer

10-21-2006, 12:59 PM

And, on second thought, I guess they were doing that on New Caprica, but now the rug has been pulled out from under them again. Okay, *now* they need to start finding their new way of living. :D

Cat Whisperer

10-21-2006, 01:03 PM

People sneaking in between my posts {shakes fist at anu-la} - they can't ditch Gaeta - he's extremely hot, especially when he's having a long-overdue, much-needed meltdown at Colonel Tigh. ( assume a smiley here - I just can't post three smileys in three posts )

MaxTheVool

10-21-2006, 01:10 PM

After having watched the first 2 seasons on DVD, I've finally now caught up to real time, so I can participate in these threads. Wheeee!

Anyhow, this was definitely a good episode. I agree that the military logistics of it made no sense, in that if the ships could jump out of atmosphere 100 feet off the ground, why bother with anything else?

Cylon security is also a bit of a joke... let's see, you're at war with a species that has every reason to destroy you. You have the remnants of them trapped on a planet. Do you (a) steal one and only one bit from each of their ships, and then put them in a drawer somewhere with no silent alarm, and also have so few of you there that they can mount a meaningful resistance against you, and also don't bother using ground-sonar to find the underground caves where they store all their guns, or (b) actually have a brain?

Anyhow, some overall comments on the series: I really like the characters, the atmosphere and the setting. But I think the show fails in two very important aspects:
(1) It is always willing to sacrifice continuity for a desired plot point. Does having Boomer jam a cable into her arm completely make the cylon-detecting-is-impossible plot nonsensical? Who cares, let's do it anyways. Is there, for one and only one episode, a single cylon raider with a name and a personality, just so that Cat and Starbuck can be rivals? Sure! Does Adama, who is shown to take the idea of respecting the chain of command and the importance of civilian authority very seriously, suddenly decide to have a coup, based on a decision he disagreed with that's already fait accompli? Sure! Does Roslyn forgive him and then it's never mentioned again? Why not!

(2) I really don't get a sense that the writers have a very solid idea of what exactly is going on in the universe, and in the fleet, as far as logistics and plans are concerned. During the first two seasons, it sure seemed that the Cylons were trying as hard as they could to wipe out humanity. As one would think they would have a motive to do. But then sometimes they had great opportunities and didn't try at all. And how does the economy of the fleet work? 40,000 people isn't very many to support an economy and a society complex enough to have political parties, a fully functioning press and clergy, etc. And what about the black market? How can there be a secret black market located on a ship when all comings and goings by inter-fleet transport are by their very nature obvious and transparent? And that black market becomes powerful enough that its boss is willing to directly cross the fricking MILITARY by assassinating a high-ranking officer? And with 40,000 people there are enough unrepentant child molestors that there is a demand for child sex slaves? One never mentioned again? And so forth...

Anyhow, definitely a good show, and MUCH better so far this season than the very lackluster second half of last season. Particularly as people may FINALLY stop trusting f*cking Gaius Baltar, who has been a serious albatross around the show's neck.

Loopydude

10-21-2006, 01:12 PM

I should think Gaeta could easily exonorate himself, as he knows a number of specific facts about the "code" used to signal the transfer of a message, the location of the drop-off, the timing and frequency of the leaks, and the content of the intel. leaked. If the writers ignore all of that content, which would instantly aquit Mr. Gaeta, they'll be sloppily ignoring it to create more contrived drama. At this point I certainly could imagine them doing that, but I hope they don't.

levdrakon

10-21-2006, 01:37 PM

Also, why is every man and woman on this show intensely fucking hot? Even EJO is a total fox.Speaking of that, did anyone else notice Ty Olsson (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0648153/), the guy who appears every once in awhile as Capt Kelly, seems to have lost a significant amount of weight? Originally in the mini-series, he was a little too chubby to be a bridge officer but back then I think they were trying to emphasize how the Galactica was old, about to be decommissioned, and the crew was a bit soft and undisciplined.

He's third-in-command though you'd hardly know it. I wonder what he is now? For that matter, I wonder what everyone is now. They've got two of everything, crew-wise. CIC is going to be pretty crowded.

Originally both Galactica and Pegasus were under-manned. How about now? Is Galactica fully-manned or over-manned? Someone mentioned they really should think about upgrading some of the other ships and that's not a bad idea if they've got extra military personnel. Is that engineer turned Deck Chief from Pegasus still around? Didn't he used to design fighters? It'd be a shame to let his expertise go to waste but I'm not sure day-to-day logistical stuff like that is what Ron Moore cares much about story-wise.

Hogan is such a great actor. I was actually a bit surprised he killed Ellen. The odd look he was giving her during her little speech was fairly telling though. The moment Ellen said, "well, now I got that off my chest, I could really use a drink!" I knew that was last drink she'd ever take.

Technically if they're still bent on being civilized Tigh should stand trial for murder. Not that he'd be convicted or anything but Ellen was civilian and I don't think Tigh had the authority to execute traitors.

Just how old was that kid with Starbuck? She was able to say a few words. She'd been snatched away from her mom by Leoben and the whole time she was with Starbuck she never said something like "I miss my mommy!"

I'm glad the thing with Starbuck and the kid is resolved but the fact that out of 40K or so evacuees the mom just happened to be on Galactica standing right next to Starbuck's Raptor was pretty lame. Starbuck knifing Leoben right in front of the kid felt a little odd too. Oh well. It's a "dark, edgy show!"

Last week when I said the Cylons were going to give Baltar his own Basestar I was just kidding! I can't imagine where we're going to go with this now but I hope we get to see more cool Cylon stuff.

Apos

10-21-2006, 01:41 PM

So what happened to Gaeta? Was he still on Colonial One when "President" Roslyn showed up, or did he take off on another ship? If he's back with the fleet, will he be an early lynch victim, as few know what he did during the occupation?

Er, you seem him on Galactica before the episode ends, when lots of people are disembarking and meeting up with each other. We also catch the briefest of images of him in the promo for the next episode, but not really enough to know exactly where he is or what's going on. No doubt he'll figure quite a lot in the "payback" plot.

silenus

10-21-2006, 01:52 PM

Also, why is every man and woman on this show intensely fucking hot? Even EJO is a total fox.

Excuse me? Even? My wife demands that I call you to the Field of Honor to pay for this slander. Even?

Oakminster

10-21-2006, 01:52 PM

Loopydude

10-21-2006, 01:55 PM

I'm glad the thing with Starbuck and the kid is resolved but the fact that out of 40K or so evacuees the mom just happened to be on Galactica standing right next to Starbuck's Raptor was pretty lame. Starbuck knifing Leoben right in front of the kid felt a little odd too. Oh well. It's a "dark, edgy show!"

I really don't understand why it happened at all, except that behind Kara's hard exterior, she's just sad, lost little girl, the crap that got its start in The Farm. It sucked then, and it sucks now, but we're stuck with it.

silenus

10-21-2006, 02:06 PM

anu-la1979

10-21-2006, 02:09 PM

Well silenus, older men really aren't my bag, I prefer guys around my own age (the delicious Tahmoh Penniket & Gaeta & Aaron Douglas for instance) and generally get super-creeped out when dudes 30+ my age hit on me. EJO is only slightly younger than my own father. However, despite my personal preferences, I find him completely delicious and I'd totally make eyes at him on the Metro.

I agree with people on other message boards that Ellen totally saw her death coming-made the last confession to Tigh to bring him some closure and accepted the cost of her betrayal on her own.

Loopydude:Kara's hard exterior, she's just sad, lost little girl, the crap that got its start in The Farm.

Isn't she supposed to have either an abusive mom or dad? Simon mentions the healed fractures on her whole body in the farm episode. I'm thinking it's more of the whole pop-psychology-behind-the-characters the show delves into once in a while. Starbuck is a superb soldier but she is completely fracked up ad infinitum.

levdrakon

10-21-2006, 02:10 PM

Where do the Cylons go from here? They took heavy losses, they have the poptart, and they know the humans are heading for Earth. Why follow? Allowing time for the humans to find earth or another suitable planet, establish a society, etc. they've probably got at least a century before the Humans come looking for them again. They could use that time to fortify the border, and possibily expand their territory in any direction other than towards Earth.

Has there ever been reference to other lifeforms in the BSG universe?D'Anna made the point that whether it's one, or two, or three or however many generations humans will never forget Cylons killed 20 billion of them. Humans can hang on to their ethnic, cultural and religious hate for a really long time and the Cylons have to assume eventually humans will come looking for pay-back.

As for other life forms I think Ron Moore made it clear there would be no aliens and EJO made it clear if any show up he's ditching the show.

It's funny though. No aliens, but we can have ghosts and spirits and apparitions and gods and magic, etc; etc. They can land on an alien planet with plants & trees yet apparently no higher life forms. Not even a mouse.

Personally, I don't want them to encounter intelligent alien species either but if you can find a planet with trees on it they should establish the Lords of Kobol flew around the galaxy seeding planets with life, then.

anu-la1979

10-21-2006, 02:14 PM

levdrakon:Originally both Galactica and Pegasus were under-manned. How about now? Is Galactica fully-manned or over-manned? Someone mentioned they really should think about upgrading some of the other ships and that's not a bad idea if they've got extra military personnel. Is that engineer turned Deck Chief from Pegasus still around? Didn't he used to design fighters? It'd be a shame to let his expertise go to waste but I'm not sure day-to-day logistical stuff like that is what Ron Moore cares much about story-wise.

I was thinking that towards the end of the episode-especially since so many of the characters have seen an elevation in rank and generally once people experience the pleasure of greater power they are loathe to give it up. Helo, Dualla, Starbuck, Kat, Lee...all saw promotions. Sharon was given back flight-status-is Roslin going to be able to cell her up again?

OTOH, several of the people who were down on New Caprica were broken in some way or the other-Tigh and Starbuck most notably. Are they even fit for duty at the moment? I sense the re-structuring of power is going to be a big source of conflict in upcoming eps.

Loopydude

10-21-2006, 02:38 PM

Isn't she supposed to have either an abusive mom or dad?

Yes, her mother, I think, and, come to think of it, somehow Leoben actually knew specific things about her history, as revealed the first time they met in Flesh and Bone, well before Simon's comments about her bone fractures in The Farm.

It's another ball that's either been dropped or is still airbone, so far as I can tell: What do or did the Cylons find so fascinating about Kara Thrace? They've clearly singled her out for attention on at least a couple of occasions, saying she's "special" somehow, but we've not gotten any explanation, so far as I know.

Grossbottom

10-21-2006, 02:44 PM

I think they could appease both camps of the aliens thing by having Galactica stumble on a long-dead civilization. They'd save on alien costumes that would look remarkably craptastic anyway, flesh out the galaxy alot more, and probably get half a season out of it. They could make it kind of creepy too, this whole planet that's been dead for millenia type of thing? Fits in with the mournful tone of the show anyway.

MacTech

10-21-2006, 02:48 PM

Where do the Cylons go from here? They took heavy losses, they have the poptart, and they know the humans are heading for Earth. Why follow? Allowing time for the humans to find earth or another suitable planet, establish a society, etc. they've probably got at least a century before the Humans come looking for them again. They could use that time to fortify the border, and possibily expand their territory in any direction other than towards Earth.

It seems to me that Meatbag cylon society is fracturing, splitting off into different schools of thought, "camps" if you will....

we have the "Kill All Humans" meatbags, exemplified by Doral , Cavill, and D'anna, this camp still follows the original Toaster protocol of total elimination of the Human species, D'anna seems to be wavering a little though

we have the "Unknown" Meatbags, Simon really has never shown much of a preference either way, and Leoben's just plain sociopathic, don't even think he follows *any* philosophy other than his own

then we have the "Can't we all just get along" models, Six and Sharon/Boomer, these models feel that the genocide of the Human race was a mistake of Galactic proportions and want to find some way of getting along with the Humans, maybe even getting the Humans to like (or at the very least, tolerate) them, the biggest success thus far has been Sharon, heck, she was even able to regain the trust of Adama, and Adama had *NO* reason to trust her after she shot him in S1, i think Adm. Adama realizes that the Sharon model meatbags are "different", more Human-sympathetic, heck, even N.C. Sharon basically staterd that she was a pacifist, and wasn't she referred to in S1 by Six as a "defective" model ("the Sharon models have always had problems")

the three camps are definitely jockeying for control of Cylon society, their infighting is definitely slowing down the progress of the original Cylon directive of "Kill All Humans".....

should be interesting watching the three camps duke it out....

Curate

10-21-2006, 02:48 PM

levdrakon

10-21-2006, 03:05 PM

Is seems to me that Sharon is going to present a long-term security problem. Even if she's totally on board with the Colonials now, can you allow her to be privy to information that most officers would know like new strategies for defense, the current and planned moves of the fleet, which ships have been converted to warships, etc? After all, if she dies in combat or an accident she'll ressurrect back with the Cylons.But that was already an issue when Adama trusted her to help with the liberation of New Caprica. I think he's already decided to take that risk.

What might be interesting is if at some point Sharon voluntarily allows herself to be killed just so she can infiltrate the Cylons. When she finds out Hera is alive and the Cylons have her, that might be one way for her to try and get her back.

Cervaise

10-21-2006, 03:11 PM

If the writers ignore all of that content, which would instantly aquit Mr. Gaeta, they'll be sloppily ignoring it to create more contrived drama.More interesting, I think, and in certain ways more depressingly realistic, is the possibility that he will in fact present this exonerating information, and his kangaroo-court prosecutors disbelieve and ignore it in their headlong rush to convict and punish those they blame for screwing up their lives.And what about the black market?What black market? There's never been an episode about the black market. Never happened. Nope. La la la la la la

Though if they ever should happen to do such an episode, we need to see that one of the things it's possible to buy through the black market is a flying motorcycle.

levdrakon

10-21-2006, 03:14 PM

I was thinking that towards the end of the episode-especially since so many of the characters have seen an elevation in rank and generally once people experience the pleasure of greater power they are loathe to give it up. Helo, Dualla, Starbuck, Kat, Lee...all saw promotions. Sharon was given back flight-status-is Roslin going to be able to cell her up again?

OTOH, several of the people who were down on New Caprica were broken in some way or the other-Tigh and Starbuck most notably. Are they even fit for duty at the moment? I sense the re-structuring of power is going to be a big source of conflict in upcoming eps.

Good point about Starbuck & Tigh. I'd be surprised if they go right back to their old jobs. Starbuck & Apollo may take on roles more similar to the original series in that they technically have rank & job duties but what they really are is free agents you use to get things done. I mean in TOS Starbuck & Apollo did everything.

I'm pissed about Roslyn waltzing right back onto Colonial One and the President's chair. Also, Sharon is going to find out Roslyn took her child. Further, we may find out for sure whether Adama knew. If it turns out both Adama and Sharon were lied to Roslyn's gonna have a lot of 'splainin' to do.

I suppose once Gaeta is cleared of any treason charges he could continue on as the President's Chief of Staff. He'd be under-used in that capacity though, IMO. I always thought after Baltar, Gaeta was the really smart science guy. And they don't have a Baltar now.

levdrakon

10-21-2006, 03:33 PM

Sorry for double-posting guys, but ooh! I just had a thought. I know that's rare for me but...

You don't suppose Tigh is going to have Ellen living in his head now, do you? Would that be too many people living in other people's heads? Baltar and real-live Six are together now so they probably won't be seeing much of their delusions. Someone's gotta have a delusion going.

It's a pretty well established theme of the show. I wouldn't be surprised if Starbuck didn't end up with a Leoben in her head, either.

Mr. Excellent

10-21-2006, 03:38 PM

And uh, 3? Why nuke the city? They're all gone, silly Toaster. "Run, Baltar! Save humanity!" Um, dumbrak, they saved themselves like an hour ago. I dunno, maybe there was some overlapping chronology there, but why would 6 and Baltar have to worry about the nuke one way or the other, Hera or no? Everyone's gone, for frak's sake.

Probably not all gone, though. Most people didn't know anything about the evac plan, remember. Even with all the best efforts of the colonials, my guess is a good number of civvies would have simply hit the ground and stayed there until the shooting stopped, details be damned. I mean, the city streets are blowing up - are *you* going outside in that?

This is especially true if you don't think the uprising is going to work - for example, if you don't know that Galactica has come back.

So yah, there might only be a few hundred people left - but it would still be nice if they didn't get nuked.

anu-la1979

10-21-2006, 03:38 PM

Dude, levdrakon, get out of my head! After my last comment I was about to add the statement that offing Gaeta would be stupidity central (even beyond Loopydude's point that he could easily corroborate his status as the informant and ignoring this possibility would be the sloppiest of writing...actually, even hinting that there might be conflict about this would be irritating) as he's probably the biggest brain trust technically-scientifically after Baltar. For instance, setting up the firewall to reset Galactica after last year's infiltration, his statement to Baltar that he was going to go on to advanced study in genetics etc. (I don't remember his explanation as to why he couldn't continue...money or something). Isn't he usually assigned to help Baltar with all the science stuff?

Didn't want to risk the wrath of the mods by too many double-posts :). I know preview is my friend and all but I'm still all up in excitement about the atmospheric FTL jump...I'm on a delayed viewing schedule since I have to wait for them to send the eps to I-tunes.

I don't mind the marriages that much but the biggest thing that irritates me about them is that in Season 1 Tigh told Chief to knock off his relationship with Boomer because of military protocol yet now it's okay for everyone to shack up together. The whole "be reproductively fruitful" message has been sent out since the mini-series so this inconsistency always bugged me even back then. Given the limited supply of partners, I would think they would have relaxed the rules way back then...but no, it's only 3 seasons in they decide that hang protocol, you can marry your fellow officers. Unless they're going to go the route of "well, it's okay for officers to marry each other, but not the deck chief and an officer" which is just stupid.

Another thing that's strange for me is that Helo and Sharon are now married and still in love-so, um, isn't she going to be knocked up again soon? We saw that love gave her the opportunity to reproduce like a human last time around.

Mr. Excellent

10-21-2006, 04:04 PM

You know, there are all things on this show that we wish we could do in real life. Some of us would like to fly Vipers. Others would probably enjoy running a flight deck. And I've no doubt that many, many people - of both sexes - would like to frak Six.

Above all else though, I would *love* to serve as defense counsel for Gaeta. That would truly rock. Er, assuming they don't shoot the defense counsel. People don't take out their anger on lawyers, do they?

/law nerd

Curate

10-21-2006, 04:17 PM

Above all else though, I would *love* to serve as defense counsel for Gaeta. That would truly rock. Er, assuming they don't shoot the defense counsel. People don't take out their anger on lawyers, do they?

/law nerd

I know there's a rule against aliens, but when I read this I flashed on Mr. Gaeta being defended by the giant chicken-lawyer from Futurama .

levdrakon

10-21-2006, 04:29 PM

Dude, levdrakon, get out of my head! After my last comment I was about to add the statement that offing Gaeta would be stupidity central (even beyond Loopydude's point that he could easily corroborate his status as the informant and ignoring this possibility would be the sloppiest of writing...actually, even hinting that there might be conflict about this would be irritating) as he's probably the biggest brain trust technically-scientifically after Baltar. For instance, setting up the firewall to reset Galactica after last year's infiltration, his statement to Baltar that he was going to go on to advanced study in genetics etc. (I don't remember his explanation as to why he couldn't continue...money or something). Isn't he usually assigned to help Baltar with all the science stuff?Exactly. I remember back in the mini-series Adama:

"Gaeta, can you calculate a jump beyond the redline?"
"That's never been attempted before sir!"
"I know. Can you do it?"
"Sure! Scribble, scribble, scribble, tappity tap tap. Jump calculations ready sir!"
"Jump!"

I always thought they'd do more with that. Baltar's genius is overrated, and Gaeta's genius is understated/unrecognized.

Another thing that's strange for me is that Helo and Sharon are now married and still in love-so, um, isn't she going to be knocked up again soon? We saw that love gave her the opportunity to reproduce like a human last time around.I was wondering that too. Maybe Sharon was still a little pissed at Helo for awhile after she lost Hera. Maybe she's just not ready to try again. Now she knows she can successfully produce a child that will live, but she's going to be devoted to recovering the first one.

carnivorousplant

10-21-2006, 04:50 PM

Surely Gaeta can prove he's the inside informant?
Indeed, one would think that he could just give a list of the info he left in the letter drop and clear himself.

silenus

10-21-2006, 05:43 PM

Gaeta will be able to clear himself at the last minute, and it will be the realization that they almost spaced an innocent man that dials back Tigh's little band of vigilantes. Jammer will then live with the knowledge of his treachery hanging over him, where it will be exploited later by un-named parties, maybe another of the collaborators who also survived.

I just watched the episode again, and teared up again when Adama saluted Tigh. That alone makes up for the deus ex machina of Kaycee's mother walking by Starbuck at just the right time. Of course, if you really want to mess with your mind, what says that Kaycee's "mom" isn't a Cylon? :D

Loopydude

10-21-2006, 06:34 PM

So yah, there might only be a few hundred people left - but it would still be nice if they didn't get nuked.

Well, maybe, but the place looked pretty empty when they went outside.

carnivorousplant

10-21-2006, 07:31 PM

What was with having the atmosphere, and indeed, weather extend for such a ridiculous height around New Caprica?

levdrakon

10-21-2006, 08:19 PM

What was with having the atmosphere, and indeed, weather extend for such a ridiculous height around New Caprica?

Uh, like duh. Magic nebula.

Lightray

10-21-2006, 08:24 PM

Of course, if you really want to mess with your mind, what says that Kaycee's "mom" isn't a Cylon? :D
That was pretty much my first thought.

And here's my thoughts on Roslyn taking charge: (1) when the puppet government puts the VP into detention, the puppet government removes the VP from the succession, (2) when the resistance overthrows the puppet government, they toss out the succession from the puppet government, anyway, and (3) Roslyn was, if not leading the resistance, then one of the leaders of the resistance -- she's pretty much ordering Anders and Tigh around, anyway.

Leader of the resistance taking charge after the resistance is victorious is not that big of a stretch. But, given the mileage they got out of politics in earlier seasons, I'm definately thinking it'll be coming up again. Bot Roslyn and Zarek have built up a lot of political capital during the occupation.

carnivorousplant

10-21-2006, 08:34 PM

Uh, like duh. Magic nebula.
But...shields and sensors would be useless!

Oakminster

10-21-2006, 08:38 PM

Roslyn and Zarek have built up a lot of political capital during the occupation.

So has Tigh. Might get interesting if he decided to run.....

Loopydude

10-21-2006, 09:10 PM

But...shields and sensors would be useless!

Hmmm. It is interesting that the Galactica could hide out in the nebula undetected, and yet monitor the Raptors, drones, Basestars and so forth with DRADIS. I'm assuming DRADIS is just RADAR with different name. I think the way it works with radar is if you can see them, they can see you, unless you've got some kind of stealth capability, or simply superior detectors. I doubt the Galactica has better remote sensing than a Basestar. In fact, if DRADIS is just radar, I should think the mere use of it would alert the enemy of one's presence. I suppose it's possible DRADIS is entirely passive, but the display seems to suggest that the area of interest is swept with EM radiation of some frequency, and the reflected energy is detected, just like radar.

carnivorousplant

10-21-2006, 09:22 PM

Hmmm. It is interesting that the Galactica could hide out in the nebula undetected,
It looked more like weather to me.
A nebula, even on Star Trek isn't that dense. Heck, that would block sunlight.
I thought they were out of detection range of the Cylons with their aircraft mid way between them. But then, look how I messed up on the ambush last week. :)

Loopydude

10-21-2006, 09:27 PM

More interesting, I think, and in certain ways more depressingly realistic, is the possibility that he will in fact present this exonerating information, and his kangaroo-court prosecutors disbelieve and ignore it in their headlong rush to convict and punish those they blame for screwing up their lives.

Perhaps. I suppose another possibility is Gaeta is the source, or at least a source, of info. about the police force. I've sometimes wondered when the squeaky-clean by-the-book Gaeta was finally going to lose it. We've seen him get close a couple times before this, and he revealed that he's really a bit of a wreck sometimes (Final Cut I believe). That last scene with Baltar was a true turning point for Gaeta, maybe, triggered by the utter betrayal of his idealistic expectations.

Lightray

10-21-2006, 09:34 PM

It doesn't really matter whether or not the BaseStars picked up a DRADIS ping from Galactica -- they were supposed to think that there were two BattleStars incoming; they'd be expecting a DRADIS ping if such things exist.

I kind of suspect that DRADIS doesn't quite work that way, though. Or, that the Cylons don't use DRADIS. We've only had Gaeta (now, Helo) announce "DRADIS contact" when a new blip appears on the screen -- not "we're being pinged by DRADIS."

I'm awfully glad that scene with the probes explained what Kat had been having them practice, though; it was all kinds of confusing to me when the practice foreshadowed it.

Loopydude

10-21-2006, 09:35 PM

It looked more like weather to me.
A nebula, even on Star Trek isn't that dense.

Well, sad to say, it looked like weather the first time. It's just not a realistic nebula at all. I think a realistic nebula would be barely visually perceptible from inside, as a uniform and dim haze in the night sky; and anyway, the star New Caprica orbits would have blown out a bubble around, and the formation of planets would have additionally swept clean, the region of the nebula the New Caprical system inhabits. You just don't get dense clouds of gas hanging there in space around stars and planets like that. If nothing else were around, it would collapse under its own gravity eventually. It's a completely unstable arrangement. Nonetheless, those clouds were most certainly supposed to be the nebula.

carnivorousplant

10-21-2006, 09:39 PM

[QUOTE=Loopydude Nonetheless, those clouds were most certainly supposed to be the nebula.[/QUOTE]
Did Moore work on Voyager? :)

silenus

10-21-2006, 10:45 PM

Only for a few weeks.

Upon third watching, I am convinced that Ellen knew Tigh was offing her. She forgave him his actions and accepted her fate.

Are we ever going to see what happened to Hera's guards?

levdrakon

10-21-2006, 11:12 PM

Let's not forget the cloudy asteroid field in Scar where it was so cloudy the Vipers left vapor trails and all the asteroids were so densely packed you had to actually dodge them.

Then there was the other magic nebula around the Ragnar Anchorage weapon's depot which emitted radiation dangerous to Cylons only.

We're working from the encyclopedia of:

Moore, Ron (2003-2006) What I Know About Space.

Are we ever going to see what happened to Hera's guards?Are we going to find out why Anders shirked his duty and didn't personally see to Hera & Maya's safety? Or see him called to task for it?

Loopydude

10-22-2006, 12:21 AM

Was Ragnar Anchorage in a nebula? I thought it was maybe in the upper atmosphere of Ragnar itself, which I guess is a planet in Caprica's solar system. I could never understand why the whole thing didn't just fall, so maybe it was a nebula.

Lightray

10-22-2006, 12:44 AM

Are we ever going to see what happened to Hera's guards?
Are we going to find out why Anders shirked his duty and didn't personally see to Hera & Maya's safety? Or see him called to task for it?
Que? Hera's guards were among the bodies lying around her when Gaius picked her up from her dead foster-mother's arms.

And Anders' duty was to assign two of his best men to see to Hera's safety (isn't Maya the woman who's Roslyn's helper, not Hera's foster-mother?). That's exacly what Roslyn asked him to do, and that's exactly what he did -- with her standing right there to be introduced to the two guys, whom she thanked for taking on the task.

Anders was the one coordinating the evacuation of the entire population of New Caprica to the ships, and was leading the assault on the detention facilities. He had better things to do than shepherd Roslyn's pet project on The Shape Of Things To Come.

AndyPolley

10-22-2006, 06:13 AM

Which would be a perfectly good explanation, except for the part where the civilian ships were all jumping to FTL about 100 feet off the ground. Heck, why bother to take off at all?
Almost every NC scene made a point of including the ever-present sounds of raider patrols zooming overhead. Raiders were constantly sweeping over the city and the ships. If any colonial ship even powered up, they could have been shot down instantly. The arrival of the Battlestars not only drew the attention of the orbiting basestars, but drew forces from the planetary patrol allowing the ships to actually take off. Also consider the Viper launch over the city was designed to free up the skies and allow the ships to lift off in addition to providing support to the forces on the ground. Jumping from 100 or so feet above the ground makes sense...why risk doing more than you have to? It's just that getting off the ground was the greatest obstacle these ships faced.

I felt like the entire NC storyline flet a little rushed, and I blame the 3rd & 4th installments. I think I would have liked the same story to have been told over 5 episodes instead of 4. That could have allowed the pacing of the first 2 episodes to match the next ones. Other than that, I pretty much loved this episode.

minty green

10-22-2006, 09:32 AM

My point is that if you can just jump wherever the hell you want, why bother to take off at all. Turn that key on and just mash the "FTL" button.

carnivorousplant

10-22-2006, 09:55 AM

My point is that if you can just jump wherever the hell you want, why bother to take off at all. Turn that key on and just mash the "FTL" button.
"Press", for cryin' out loud, "Press the FTL button".
They mash things on Dr. Who. :)

"I didn't tell you to mash the FTL button, then!"
"Yes you did, you bloody well did!"
"Well, I didn't tell you to mash it so hard, did I?"
But I digress...

One assumes you must be airborne to be away from a large mass. One arrives within a few thousand miles and use reaction engines to maneuver into the parking space.
Probably jumping within the mass of an atmosphere is like driving on ice; you can do it, but one would rather not.

silenus

10-22-2006, 10:22 AM

Que? Hera's guards were among the bodies lying around her when Gaius picked her up from her dead foster-mother's arms.

I know they're dead. I want to see how it happened. Mortar, Cylon Raider, cheerleader with a gun? It was just a little too convenient that all three of the adults in the party got snuffed but the kid made it out in one piece. Color me suspicious.

ElvisL1ves

10-22-2006, 10:41 AM

I thought the thing with the kid was off-- she seemed way too old to fit the timeline.Last season had a "One Year Later" inserted on a New Caprica scene, just before the invasion, and there'd been a significantly-long occupation since. We don't know how long it had been since the Baby Farm episode, too. No prob.

IMHO:
Great ep, but too packed and too CGI-indulgent for my taste. The end of Pegasus was contrived, but it did make a good scene.

Gaeta will be fine; he can prove even to a kangaroo court that he was the insider.

The succession isn't a problem either. There will have to be a Quorum meeting, sure, but they can easily declare Baltar to have abdicated and hold a new election. Zarek is entirely rehabilitated too, that political-prisoner and anti-Roslin-dissident backstory is ancient and irrelevant anymore. He stays VP.

And what of Baltar now? The humans don't want him back, the Cylons don't need him anymore (except maybe as a stud in the PopTart Factory?). I like the idea that there are human stragglers, not necessarily yet defeated in spirit, still on NC, and maybe he can be involved with that somehow.

Starbuck's knife-twisting just showed she hadn't been broken completely, that the old Best Everything In The Fleet was still there underneath.

There don't seem to be many Pegasus crewmembers still around, at least onscreen. Look for the same old Galactica crew in every significant role, just like before.

Oakminster

10-22-2006, 11:23 AM

I know they're dead. I want to see how it happened. Mortar, Cylon Raider, cheerleader with a gun? It was just a little too convenient that all three of the adults in the party got snuffed but the kid made it out in one piece. Color me suspicious.

I got the impression they might have died soon after starting the run. The block captain sends then off, looks away, and we hear what sounds like an artillery round landing offscreen, in the direction they were heading....

Merijeek

10-22-2006, 11:52 AM

Huh.

So, did anyone "Kacey is actually a human Leoben grabbed off the street and tossed down the stairs"? in the 'Is Kacey a Toaster?' pool?

You know, the most likely, simplest explanation. Those bitching about the resolution need to think about that for a bit.

levdrakon - after the ambush in the previous episode it was mentioned that Cottle was working on a Cylon - or at least extremely heavily implied. We know he's a quintessential doctor - I think it's safe to say he'll work on anyone.

The evacuation of the ships was too easy. I wish a couple of them had been taken out by raiders as they were lifting off.

That would be a good chunk of the reason that Galactica did their highly risky dive-bombing maneuver. To take out the minimal fighter cover that was above the crappy little town.

I was so happy to see Starbuck kill Leoben one last time. Sweet of her to finally kiss him, though. I figure seven or eight deaths means your murderess is obligated to give you a little 'lip and tongue action'.

And uh, 3? Why nuke the city? They're all gone, silly Toaster. "Run, Baltar! Save humanity!" Um, dumbrak, they saved themselves like an hour ago. I dunno, maybe there was some overlapping chronology there, but why would 6 and Baltar have to worry about the nuke one way or the other, Hera or no? Everyone's gone, for frak's sake. Oh, well, minor nitpick.

Yeah, because the people in charge safely away from the fighting never fuck up totally and misunderestimate the situation on the ground. Totally impossible. Besides, they insurgency would have to be pretty incredible to get 30,000 people up and moving and into their ships in the matter of an hour or so. Impossible! Only Cylons can be that efficient!

Gaeta we saw in the crowd scene in the Galactica's hangar. He was standing next to a Raptor looking depressed.

I should think Gaeta could easily exonorate himself, as he knows a number of specific facts about the "code" used to signal the transfer of a message, the location of the drop-off, the timing and frequency of the leaks, and the content of the intel. leaked. If the writers ignore all of that content, which would instantly aquit Mr. Gaeta, they'll be sloppily ignoring it to create more contrived drama. At this point I certainly could imagine them doing that, but I hope they don't.

Amazing how quickly people will whip out a term like "sloppily". What if the people killing Goodlifers aren't Tyrol, Tigh, or Anders? If it's not one of those three, WHAT SOURCE? Who is going to believe what anything about a 'magic super secret source'? Or are we going to hear about sloppiness because EVERYONE in the resistance knew about Super Secret Source?

Just how old was that kid with Starbuck? She was able to say a few words. She'd been snatched away from her mom by Leoben and the whole time she was with Starbuck she never said something like "I miss my mommy!"

How old was Elisabeth Smart?

-Joe

Merijeek

10-22-2006, 11:57 AM

Regarding Baltar and what's going to happen with him...

Weren't we promised some time on a Basestar this season? I just hope Baltar is...I don't know, something other than morose and whiney as he's been on New Caprica the whole time.

But what'll motivate him?

-Joe

athelas

10-22-2006, 11:59 AM

But...shields and sensors would be useless!

Yes, and so would Reliant's. Then the odds would be equal.

KHAAAAAAN!

Loopydude

10-22-2006, 12:05 PM

Yeah, because the people in charge safely away from the fighting never fuck up totally and misunderestimate the situation on the ground.

Did you actually watch the show? The town was empty. They're chasing 3 around to stop her from blowing up...who?

Amazing how quickly people will whip out a term like "sloppily".

There's been enough sloppy already it's entirely reasonable to anticipate more.

What if the people killing Goodlifers aren't Tyrol, Tigh, or Anders? If it's not one of those three, WHAT SOURCE?

So you're saying they're not involved? Did Tyrol not make very clear that when all was said and done the Goodlifers were going to get it ("make the noose tight")? Was Anders not quite intent himself on punishing Ellen Tigh, though it was the very eve of their rescue? Could these men not be consulted? I think it quite plausible they'd have the trust of the death squads. Were they the only three who knew about a mole? What is it with you apologists, anyway?

easy e

10-22-2006, 12:08 PM

Last season had a "One Year Later" inserted on a New Caprica scene, just before the invasion, and there'd been a significantly-long occupation since. We don't know how long it had been since the Baby Farm episode, too. No prob.

Not quite. Caprica Sharon was already pregnant before the action on "The Farm" took place, yet Kacey looked way older than Hera aka Isis.

levdrakon

10-22-2006, 12:30 PM

Que? Hera's guards were among the bodies lying around her when Gaius picked her up from her dead foster-mother's arms.

And Anders' duty was to assign two of his best men to see to Hera's safety (isn't Maya the woman who's Roslyn's helper, not Hera's foster-mother?). That's exacly what Roslyn asked him to do, and that's exactly what he did -- with her standing right there to be introduced to the two guys, whom she thanked for taking on the task.

Anders was the one coordinating the evacuation of the entire population of New Caprica to the ships, and was leading the assault on the detention facilities. He had better things to do than shepherd Roslyn's pet project on The Shape Of Things To Come.Ah, I saw that scene differently I guess. Roslyn made it clear Maya & Hera were *the* most important two people to get off the planet and when Anders was to select his best most trustworthy men I assumed it was to assist Anders in personally seeing to Maya & Hera's safety. Not just safety, actually. It was suggested if it came down to it, kill the baby rather than let it fall into Cylon hands. Roslyn just said "don't let it come to that." So, I thought it was clear Anders didn't have better things to do.

Anyway yes, Maya was the adoptive mother. She'd lost her own child at about the same time Hera was born and I believe it was to be a permanent adoption. Maya had to die of course. The actor has a regular role on Eureka. :)

If the adults were killed but Hera wasn't it's easy enough for me to believe someone died shielding the child from a mortar blast with his/her body.

Here's something I'm not clear on. Six & Baltar were following D'Anna to stop her from setting off the nuke. D stops off at the oracle's tent along the way and while she's rummaging around the tent says something like, "fraking liar!" What was it she thought the oracle lied about? Was the baby supposed to be in the tent?

If so than I guess the oracle wasn't lying since as luck would have it, Hera was just outside the tent.

Merijeek

10-22-2006, 12:34 PM

Did you actually watch the show? The town was empty. They're chasing 3 around to stop her from blowing up...who?

Umm...Baltar? He may whine and bitch but he doesn't want to die - he's willing to do absoutely everything and anything to stay alive.

In a warzone people are often running around and sticking their heads up when enemies are walking around. Maybe it's because all those who were that goddamned stupid are already laying in the ground with holes shot in them.

So you're saying they're not involved? Did Tyrol not make very clear that when all was said and done the Goodlifers were going to get it ("make the noose tight")? Was Anders not quite intent himself on punishing Ellen Tigh, though it was the very eve of their rescue? Could these men not be consulted? I think it quite plausible they'd have the trust of the death squads. Were they the only three who knew about a mole? What is it with you apologists, anyway?

Were they the only ones who knew about the mole? Umm...I don't know, how broadly would you, as Insurgent High Commander, broadcast that you "have a source right near the top?"

I wouldn't be surprised if Roslin knew, too, so that would bring it up to four people.

I don't watch the previews too carefully. Tell me, is there any reason to believe that Tigh, Tyrol, Anders, or Roslin is involved in the people killing off the Goodlifers? If you were part of a group playing Vigilante Justice would you give Tigh a call and say, "He Tigh, this is Jim. We're not about to blow Gaeta's head off for helping Baltar or anything, but if we were going to and he were to claim to have been a high-level source passing information to the Insurgency would that be possible? Really? Well, what if he said he had delivered the list of people to be executed in Beggar's Canyon? Oh, really? Then I guess we'll release him. Or, well, we would if we had him. Which we don't. Gotta go."

So, how do you want to play it? Does everyone know that there was a source right At The Top (which would be sloppy), or was it restricted information?

Oh, and apologist? What's the term for people bitching about something that hasn' t aired and that they don't actually know much about?

-Joe

silenus

10-22-2006, 12:38 PM

You see Gaeta and Tigh in the same kangaroo court scene in the previews for next week. Tigh looks to be in charge of the court.

Loopydude

10-22-2006, 12:42 PM

Oh, and then there's that.

easy e

10-22-2006, 12:59 PM

Here's something I'm not clear on. Six & Baltar were following D'Anna to stop her from setting off the nuke. D stops off at the oracle's tent along the way and while she's rummaging around the tent says something like, "fraking liar!" What was it she thought the oracle lied about? Was the baby supposed to be in the tent?

If so than I guess the oracle wasn't lying since as luck would have it, Hera was just outside the tent.

The oracle told D'Anna that she would hold Hera in her arms and know true love. When D'Anna heads back to the oracle's tent, it looks like all the humans who could have evacuated the planet, presumably taking Hera (and D'Anna's hopes of finding Hera) with them. So she was pissed at the oracle and thought she was lying about D'Anna finding Hera. So of course, D'Anna has to find Hera right after she's given up hope.

silenus

10-22-2006, 02:08 PM

Some general info on the course of the season, from Dreamwatch magazine:

There will be an upcoming story about a dying Basestar and a plague affecting the Cylons. Episode 8 will fill in parts of the missing year on New Caprica. Episode 9 finds another clue about Earth.

It also states that Episode 9 will set the stage for the second half of the season. (Obviously).

anu-la1979

10-22-2006, 02:09 PM

So, I actually googled for spoilers and WOWZA, if they prove to be true this season gets very dark very fast.

silenus

10-22-2006, 02:23 PM

No kidding. I think Ron Moore is using this show as a substitute for therapy. He can work out all his inner demons by having his characters deal with them. :D

Bryan Ekers

10-22-2006, 02:31 PM

My point is that if you can just jump wherever the hell you want, why bother to take off at all. Turn that key on and just mash the "FTL" button.

Well, you have to get up to 88 miles an hour, first.

Baron Greenback

10-22-2006, 02:35 PM

Just saw it earlier, and wow, just wow! Poor Saul, poor Kara and poor Felix. I haven't been this invested in a TV show since the first series of Cracker. Does the Sci-fi channel show Doctor Who immediately before this? If so, you've one hell of a Friday night's telly going.

ElvisL1ves

10-22-2006, 03:19 PM

Yes, it does, and yes, we do. Thanks for caring. :)

levdrakon

10-22-2006, 03:32 PM

Well, you have to get up to 88 miles an hour, first.

Really, it's just simple FTL Science, 101. You can't initiate an FTL jump while in a position of rest relative to the rotation of a large gravity well. For you civilians, that means you can't just turn the key and mash the FTL button. FAA regulations strictly prohibit initiating an FTL jump within certain carefully proscribed vertical and horizontal distances above populated areas, buildings, etc. No sane pilot would attempt an FTL jump - even in an emergency - without first having cleared nearby structures.

Sheesh. I can't believe I always have to explain this stuff to you people. :rolleyes:

I hope someone remembered to grab the dog.

Does the Sci-fi channel show Doctor Who immediately before this? If so, you've one hell of a Friday night's telly going. Yeah, during most of the year Scifi Fridays are a pretty well stocked Scifi-fantasy-supernatural buffet.

MaxTheVool

10-22-2006, 03:33 PM

Well, you have to get up to 88 miles an hour, first.

You think Galactica's main power source can generate one point twenty one jigawatts of electricity?

carnivorousplant

10-22-2006, 03:37 PM

You think Galactica's main power source can generate one point twenty one jigawatts of electricity?

I dunno, but I like that better answer better than mine or that "gravity well mass building FCC" thing above.
The stainless steel is pretty cool, too.

levdrakon

10-22-2006, 04:58 PM

Did you actually watch the show? The town was empty. They're chasing 3 around to stop her from blowing up...who?I'm sitting here re-watching some of those scenes. When D'Anna left to set off the nuke, all they knew was they'd lost control of the situation on the ground and she gave the order to evacuate the Cylons from the facility. When Baltar told Gaeta, "if I don't stop the bomb, humanity dies with me" he probably wouldn't have known at that time how many people had already left.

We know the nuke was "in this complex," but D'Anna left the complex and took off towards the oracle's tent.

We the audience know that at about that time, or a little after, Pegasus died heroically holding off the Basestars. We also know while Pegasus was dying, Starbuck & Anders were still in the detention area and Starbuck was giving Leoben his good-bye kiss/stabbing.

But by the time Baltar & Six caught up with D'Anna at the oracle's tent it should have been obvious most people were gone. Gaeta might still be around somewhere, and Baltar was still there so it makes sense he'd want to stop the bomb if he's not really suicidal.

But I'd argue that whether D'Anna found Hera or not, by that point she probably wasn't going to bother setting off the nuke anyway.

If I were Baltar though, I'd still want to make sure.

Merijeek

10-22-2006, 05:05 PM

If I were Baltar though, I'd still want to make sure.

Really, if people want to bitch about silliness, go ahead and ponder why all the Meatbags didn't get into that Heavy Raider and then just lob a nuke from one of those orbiting Basestars.

-Joe

levdrakon

10-22-2006, 05:06 PM

Really, if people want to bitch about silliness, go ahead and ponder why all the Meatbags didn't get into that Heavy Raider and then just lob a nuke from one of those orbiting Basestars.

-Joe

Yeah, there's that too.

Loopydude

10-22-2006, 05:36 PM

Well, why not? The entire nuke element was pretty silly as executed. Nuking the place from orbit (only way to be sure) at the first sign of trouble would have made sense if, for instance, there was some resurrection facility aboard one of the basestars, or the Cylons had a rapid evac. plan. Sure, one of the 3s thinks the Pop Tart is still around, but nobody else does. Nobody needs a convoluted contingency plan that gives 3 all the time she needs to sift through the remnants of New Caprica City to find a baby literally everyone else but a human prophet thinks is long dead. My biggest complaint is why do silly things when you don't have to?

Lightray

10-22-2006, 06:34 PM

Yes, and so would Reliant's. Then the odds would be equal.

KHAAAAAAN!
I'm deducting points on that quip for no mention of sauce for the goose. Also, more points for getting Kirk in there, well out of chronological sequence.

If you score high on the next one, though, it shouldn't affect your overall grade too much.

Cat Whisperer

10-22-2006, 08:46 PM

I'm having a problem with humans killing other humans at this point, traitors or not. They just don't have that many to spare. It's all well and good to want to kill the co-operators (Goodlifers, I guess we're calling them), but that isn't a luxury they can afford.

carnivorousplant

10-22-2006, 09:09 PM

They just don't have that many to spare.
I agree. They need to be planning to use AI for women to bear the children of various men as well as their spouses.
However, I would presume there is a lot of testosterone bubbling about when you have an eye ripped out (yes, that was Cylons, but I'm making a damn example here. Pay attention. There will be a test on Tuesday.) or your friends hauled away in the dark of the night.
Some kind on penance is certainly due for the Vichy, mining or agricultural details planetside, but the gene pool musn't be decreased.

Loopydude

10-22-2006, 09:52 PM

I didn't think to notice, but are they still listing the number of survivors at the beginning? They had to have lost quite a few during the occupation and the escape itself, and I'm wondering how low the number must be now.

Oakminster

10-22-2006, 09:58 PM

I have not seen the number listed as it was last season. I'm guessing they got away with around 35-38K....

Loopydude

10-22-2006, 10:01 PM

Could be. I was thinking low forties.

levdrakon

10-22-2006, 10:02 PM

I have not seen the number listed as it was last season. I'm guessing they got away with around 35-38K....

I think they stopped showing the numbers around the time Starbuck came back with the Buccaneers, didn't they? The dry-erase board behind Roslyn's desk is supposed to be pretty important to her though. We should keep an eye out for that.

Will Hera count as 1/2?

alphaboi867

10-22-2006, 10:12 PM

Has it been established on-screen that Leoben was actually raping Kara? I got the impression he was.

Loopydude

10-22-2006, 10:13 PM

Hera's probably going to be considered sui generis, I'm thinking.

This just occurred to me: If Hera doesn't have some kind of advanced growth rate, we're not going to see much development of her character unless we get some more large time leaps, like we did at the end of the second season. I wonder if she'll stay a baby for the forseable future.

carnivorousplant

10-22-2006, 10:25 PM

I got the impression he was.
So did I, but I saw nothing to explicitly indicate it.

ElvisL1ves

10-22-2006, 10:27 PM

Let's hope not. Harcesis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harcesis) and Elizabeth (http://www.jumpedtheshark.com/v/v.htm). The half-human, half-whatever child with mystical powers stuff has been done, people.

Has it been established on-screen that Leoben was actually raping Kara? I got the impression he was.I don't think so. He wanted her heart and mind, even more than her body. I doubt he could overpower her anyway.

carnivorousplant

10-22-2006, 10:30 PM

I wonder if she'll stay a baby for the forseable future.
Good gad, I hope so.
My two greatest fears for BSG are religion being "real", re Moore's comments in the Exodus II podcast, "The Cylon and humand religions are both right..." and some alien hybrid child like in the V miniseries.
Oh, three, the humans turning out to all be Cylons of some sort.
If Ellen wakes up in a hot tub Friday, I'll rent the Goodyear blimp for "Ron Moore Sucks".

carnivorousplant

10-22-2006, 10:34 PM

I doubt he could overpower her anyway.
I disagree. They went to some length to show his overpowering her during his interrogation in "Last time (or so) on BSG". He also slapped her unconcious on the stairway in Exodus II.

Loopydude

10-22-2006, 10:49 PM

Yeah, in Flesh and Bone Leoben demonstrated pretty clearly, by breaking his bonds and getting this close to snapping her neck, that he's a lot stronger than your average human being. Though Kara's very kickass and all that, I don't think she'd stand much of a chance in a fair fight with him, nor any of the other Cylons, actually. A 6 beat the crap out of her in the remains of the museum in Delphi, and only by taking a kamikaze dive at her that dropped them both almost ten feet and fortuitously got the 6 skewered on some rebar or something, was she able to win the fight.

levdrakon

10-22-2006, 11:12 PM

Has it been established on-screen that Leoben was actually raping Kara? I got the impression he was.

Inquisitor: "Leoben, when did you stop raping Kara?"
"I didn't stop... wait!"

I never got the impression he raped her. He's crazy, but he wants her genuine love. He tried getting it with the Stockholm Syndrome thing, then he tried it with cute little kid. Both were stupid ideas.

If he really wants her to love him - and I think a part of her does care about him - he should stick with droning on and on about seeing God's plan for them etc. Starbuck is religious and deep, deep, deeeeeeeeeeep down she's a romantic.

So far a Boomer model has experienced true love, and Six model has experienced true love and now a D'Anna model has experienced true love.

When does a boy-bot get to experience true love without being crazy, tricky and/or just plain evil?

Ron Moore is creating lots of sympathy for the hot fem-bots while keeping the males solidly villain.

Loopydude

10-22-2006, 11:28 PM

So far a Boomer model has experienced true love, and Six model has experienced true love...

Hey...I know Baltar kind of thinks of Hera and "his" child, wouldn't what appears to be the love bond between himself and Caprica 6 make it possible for them to have their own true Pop Tart?

levdrakon

10-22-2006, 11:44 PM

Hey...I know Baltar kind of thinks of Hera and "his" child, wouldn't what appears to be the love bond between himself and Caprica 6 make it possible for them to have their own true Pop Tart?If love is the secret ingredient, then they should. But Baltar caught a lot of radiation leaving Caprica. Would you want his two-headed kid? ;)

I wonder what's happening back in The Farms on Caprica? They only blew up one right? Or did Anders manage to blow them all up? Hard to believe if they were scattered planet-wide.

anu-la1979

10-23-2006, 12:15 AM

Starbuck may be religious but she's pretty tied to her polytheistic faith. Unless at some point some Swami descends unto the BSG universe and preaches the whole "All Religions are some Version of the Same Truth" I'm guessing she's not going to be getting on the monotheism train any time soon.

carniverousplant, it looks like that doesn't it? Especially since Honey Bunny can apparently channel CreepyCylonDeity.

WTF, please don't tell me Ron Moore has been spending time at some cheesy ashram.

Loopydude

10-23-2006, 06:59 AM

If love is the secret ingredient, then they should.

I can't think of what else it must be. We know Baltar hasn't been in the mood much these days, but now that Hera is known to be alive, maybe he's now got a reason to live again, and hence will get a bit of the old Baltar libido back? No reason why he and 6 can't be going at it like bunnies in the near future.

silenus

10-23-2006, 08:45 AM

Photos from upcoming episodes seem to show that 6 is at least giving it her best shot. Yowza! Those are some nice outfits.

Lightray

10-23-2006, 10:20 AM

If Ellen wakes up in a hot tub Friday, I'll rent the Goodyear blimp for "Ron Moore Sucks".
I'm in for that.

Loopydude

10-23-2006, 10:37 AM

I just can't see it. Yeah, they had a little fun with Ellen's story, post-Colonial Holocaust, but I don't think the idea was to seriously suggest Ellen might be a Cylon. Since the survivors knew so little about the nature of the Cylon skinjobs, it was reasonable for them then to suspect anyone might be a copy of human being, rather than a completely original synthetic individual with a fictional biography, like Sharon. There just doesn't seem to be anything but contrary evidence for Cylons being copiers, and as the twelve models appear to have been created fairly recently to conform to some kind of mystical association with the twelve gods and colonies of their human designers, it just seems far more likely that the remaining unrevealed copies will be as original in design as their known counterparts.

Bryan Ekers

10-23-2006, 11:14 AM

When does a boy-bot get to experience true love without being crazy, tricky and/or just plain evil?
The problem is that they always insist on the "swirl" at the end.

Loopydude

10-23-2006, 11:41 AM

MaxTheVool

10-23-2006, 11:44 AM

Yeah, they had a little fun with Ellen's story, post-Colonial Holocaust,

If by that you mean "a totally implausible perfect storm of circumstances whose sole function was to mess with our heads", then yes, they had a little fun.

carnivorousplant

10-23-2006, 12:22 PM

If by that you mean "a totally implausible perfect storm of circumstances whose sole function was to mess with our heads", then yes, they had a little fun.

I'd have rather seen a trial of some sort after the escape, but Moore thought it art, so she went.
They did need to lose someone of the major cast for theatrical purposes I suppose.

Loopydude

10-23-2006, 12:34 PM

I think MTV (oooh, that doesn't look so good ;)) is referring to Ellen's first appearance early first season, in Tigh Me Up, Tigh Me Down. Ellen seems to appear out of nowhere, no one remembers rescuing her, and she's got amnesia due to a head injury that has robbed her of all memory of a big chunk of time from the moment she was rescued, to about a couple weeks before Adama spirits her to the Galactica. Because Adama is sussing Ellen's case out as secretively as he can, suspicion is sewn among the crew and some high-ranking members of the govt., like Roslin, who herself can't get Leoben's whisper of Adama being a cylon out of her head. So some are wondering if Adama's a cylon, or if Ellen's a cylon, people are giving Baltar conflicting orders about whose blood sample should be analyzed first, and on and on. It's practically a comedy-of-errors episode that culminates in Ellen behaving like a drunken boor and sticking her foot in Lee's crotch during dinner. That's kind of what I meant when I said "a little fun".

levdrakon

10-23-2006, 01:12 PM

I thought the Simon we saw in The Farm started out at least seeming a bit less pathological than a Cavill or a Leoben. I think I remember him having a little chat with a 6 in the hall that Kara overheard, and the content seemed to suggest he was having some misgivings about the way they were dealing with her. I sort of wonder, since he's a "doctor" model, if he represents some sort of more humanistic (for lack of a better word) archetype.

I think that would be a great idea to explore. This last couple eps his character really hasn't done anything but say "we agree." But the actor does a pretty good job of showing zero enthusiasm for all the decisions being made. It's a bit like he finds the whole thing distasteful but mostly keeps his mouth shut about it.

There appeared to be only one Simon on New Caprica. I wonder why? If enough Cylons are getting injured Doc Cottle has to tend to them, why didn't they bring in more Dr. Simons? Is his model series just not that interested in this whole human problem?

I know I'm over-thinking it again. But I'm curious why NC was still so bleak and under-supplied after four months of occupation. Why? Well, because that's the story Ron Moore wants to tell. Fine.

But if I were the Cylons and I wanted this coexisting with humans experiment to work and I was being hindered by a small number of resistance fighters/terrorists you know what I wouldn't do? Ration food, medicine, electricity, supplies and force people to just barely scratch out a living in tents.

Nope. The easiest way to render the resistance impotent is to load up about thirty Basestars with trees, plants, flowers, fruits, vegetables, building materials and power generators. Have my army of Centurions working night and day building comfortable homes, huge greenhouses and farms, beautiful parks for the kids to play in. Make New Caprica a nice, comfortable, warm, cozy place to live. Pretty quickly, people would just laugh at the resistance and if they blew something up the people would condemn them.

So why didn't they? It's as if the bulk of Cylon civilization never really supported this New Caprica experiment and deliberately gave them only minimal support.

muldoonthief

10-23-2006, 03:47 PM

I thought it was a great episode - few continuity holes, but meh. Do we know if the D'Anna that Sharon kneecapped last episode is the same one who was going to set off the nuke but wound up finding Hera? If so, how was she walking so well? Did she suicide to get new knees? Since she volunteered to set off the nuke after all the other Cylons left, it seems that she's not too worried about resurrection yet.

The one thing that really bugged me was the roles of the Pegasus & Galactica. They did such a good job with the military tactics - use decoys to get the Cylons out of position, jump into the atmosphere to get your Vipers & Raptors where they need to be quickly, jump back out to go toe to toe with the Basestars so the civilians can escape - that the ending where Lee unilaterally sacrified the Pegasus to save Galactica was just stupid. Galactica was an old, retired ship converted to a museum, while Pegasus was a late model, top of the line Battlestar. It's as if the USS Intrepid (http://www.intrepidmuseum.org) and the USS Ronald Reagan (http://www.reagan.navy.mil/) were cruising together, and you sacrificed Ronny to save the Intrepid. It would have made much more sense for the Pegasus to jump in, pick up the vipers, tell the Galactica to set a collision course for the Basestars and abandon ship.

I know the show is Battlestar Galactica, and I know Moore wanted all the Lee & Bill interaction when the Pegasus stays behind, but it seems that Lee did everything wrong. If they had stuck with a plan using both Battlestars, they could either have saved both, or at least saved the good one.

carnivorousplant

10-23-2006, 04:02 PM

I know the show is Battlestar Galactica, and I know Moore wanted all the Lee & Bill interaction when the Pegasus stays behind, but it seems that Lee did everything wrong. If they had stuck with a plan using both Battlestars, they could either have saved both, or at least saved the good one.

Depressing, isn't it? :)

Moore does say on the podcast that they planned to off Pegasus from the start. Like you said, it's the name of the show.

Lightray

10-23-2006, 04:13 PM

I know I'm over-thinking it again. But I'm curious why NC was still so bleak and under-supplied after four months of occupation. Why? Well, because that's the story Ron Moore wants to tell. Fine.

But if I were the Cylons and I wanted this coexisting with humans experiment to work and I was being hindered by a small number of resistance fighters/terrorists you know what I wouldn't do? Ration food, medicine, electricity, supplies and force people to just barely scratch out a living in tents.

Nope. The easiest way to render the resistance impotent is to load up about thirty Basestars with trees, plants, flowers, fruits, vegetables, building materials and power generators...
I'm not sure that the Cylons even have thirty BaseStars. But the impression I got was that the Cylons are involved in other projects, elsewhere. Their dilithium (trillium? unobtanium? whatever) mine was pretty far off the beaten path as far as we know. And the Cylons just happened to be in the neighborhood of Funky Nebula when Pegasus Six set off her suicide nuke. I think they're scattered throughout their section of the galaxy, busy at whatever The Plan needs. Their resources may be stretched pretty thin -- which was, to me, the implication given by the occupation committee. Now that Baltar's gone off to Cylonland, I think we'll probably come back to this in some Cylon-centric episodes this season.

But I think that the rag-tag fugitive fleet is going to be even more stretched thin after abandoning just about everything on New Caprica. I doubt the Resistance would have been able to pre-load much on the ships without the Cylons noticing, so they had to leave all those metal frames, equipment, food, oracle tents, and the like behind.

Just hope somebody brought the dog along.

Loopydude

10-23-2006, 04:14 PM

It's as if the bulk of Cylon civilization never really supported this New Caprica experiment and deliberately gave them only minimal support.

Yeah, Cavill and 5/Doral sure didn't act all that enthused. Cavill seemed to think the whole idea was stupid to the core, and Doral looked like he wanted to blow Baltar's brains out so badly he could taste it. The idea of nuking New Caprica City from orbit seemed to brought a little glimmer to his eye. 3 rolled hers into the back of her head almost any time Galactica 8 or Caprica 6 opened their mouths. If any of them besides 6 and 8 were supportive to begin with, it didn't take them long to change their minds once the resistance began, so it's pretty reasonable to wonder if their hearts were ever in it in the first place.

Loopydude

10-23-2006, 04:51 PM

I think that would be a great idea to explore. This last couple eps his character really hasn't done anything but say "we agree." But the actor does a pretty good job of showing zero enthusiasm for all the decisions being made. It's a bit like he finds the whole thing distasteful but mostly keeps his mouth shut about it.

Of all the Cylons who get less screen time than the 6's and the 8's, I liked Simon's personality the best. 5's a smug control freak with a really short fuse; 3's kind of a snarky bitch all the time, and sort of easy to get tired of; Cavill's got a wry sense of humor, but he can be a cruel, calculating monster when he wants to be; and Leoben's a just twitchy nutcase with more than a smattering of megalomania. Simon's cool, collected, and doesn't shoot his mouth off. At least if he's being eeeevil he's kinda classy about it.

Corner Case

10-23-2006, 04:56 PM

Thank you all for enriching the already great storylines with additional commentary, nitpicks, and depth.

Baltar has such a drive to stay alive at all costs. He's seen multiple Meatbags walking around and resurrecting when killed. Do you think he's imagining "If I had a Cylon body I'd never die?" And do you think he'll be offered that chance?

It still bugs me in the opening credits to see the blast rip through his windows and consume him and Six in the shockwave and to have him alive afterward. Who votes for this as a continuity error on the same scale as the Glowing Spine, and who thinks it needs to be explained?

mazinger_z

10-23-2006, 05:09 PM

Loopydude

10-23-2006, 05:22 PM

It still bugs me in the opening credits to see the blast rip through his windows and consume him and Six in the shockwave and to have him alive afterward. Who votes for this as a continuity error on the same scale as the Glowing Spine, and who thinks it needs to be explained?

This has been discussed a fair amount, and I'm with the folks who don't really see a problem. Now, it's true, a 50 megaton blast is a frakking huge nuclear explosion (as big as the biggest bomb ever detonated on Earth), but our old buddy the inverse-square law will tell you if you're many miles from ground zero (which Baltar apparently was, given the time between the flash and the arrival of the shock wave), the force of the blast and the intensity of the heat and radiation will be suprisingly reduced. The terrain around Baltar's place was mountainous, to boot, and that might have attenuated the affects of the explosion as well. You do see a lot of stuff flying around, but it's mostly dust being kicked up and shattered glass, I think. It doesn't look like Baltar's place was flattened or anything like that, so I think it's easily possible having 6's body shielding most of him could have saved him. I think it would have been a nice touch to show his hands and forearms cut up pretty badly, as his arms were around her, I think, but that's all. As for 6, well, shards of glass, wood, maybe shall, narrow pieces of metal from the window frames and treatments, probably riddled her entire back side, and even if none of them alone or in small numbers could have been lethal, tens or perhaps even hundreds of wounds from the flying debris could have easily killed her without the overpressure itself being fatal.

Merijeek

10-23-2006, 05:32 PM

Who votes for this as a continuity error on the same scale as the Glowing Spine, and who thinks it needs to be explained?

Not me.

-Joe

carnivorousplant

10-23-2006, 05:40 PM

Let's not mention the GSP(TM)

(Glowing Spine of Passion), they may have just forgotten about it.

Lumpy

10-23-2006, 05:40 PM

What kind of shape is Galactica in now? Unless it's made of that miraculous self-regenerating hull material that Voyager was, it's outer armor should be almost gone. It's had a nuke sear the (starboard?) side, a took a heavy pounding on it's port side, and it's ventral side is now as blackened as an old frying pan. At this rate the Galacitca is one more major battle away from being crippled and two from being destroyed.

Loopydude

10-23-2006, 05:44 PM

It does look remarkably clean on the outside, but it's a mighty big ship, and we don't often see it up close. I should imagine, though, that the entire bottom surface ought show discoloration from the heat of entry as well, and that ought to be easy enough to spot from far away. Even easier, perhaps.

carnivorousplant

10-23-2006, 05:45 PM

What kind of shape is Galactica in now?
Moore addresses that in the podcast if you are interested.

levdrakon

10-23-2006, 06:07 PM

I don't mind the marriages that much but the biggest thing that irritates me about them is that in Season 1 Tigh told Chief to knock off his relationship with Boomer because of military protocol yet now it's okay for everyone to shack up together.While not exactly an enlisted man, Chief Tyrol is a warrant officer, and not a commissioned officer. So, I'm ok with all the shacking up as long as it still follows protocol.At the beginning of season one the crew of Galactica was undisciplined. No one cared because Galactica was being decommissioned. After the attack it was Tigh's job to crack down on people and whip everything back into military ship-shape.

A lot happened between the beginning of season one and the end of season two. Roslyn set a precedent by banning birth control, for one thing.

Tyrol/Cally doesn't bother me protocol-wise. They're both enlisted and I doubt Cally will return to active duty very soon. What bugs me about their marriage is that Cally was such an obsessed stalker-chick and the way she won him over was getting the crap beat of her by him during a sleepwalking psychotic break, and then forgiving him. The whole relationship just says "bad idea."

Apollo & Dualla bother me more. Dualla was an NCO when she started fooling around with Apollo. Then she gets promoted to Lt. and becomes his XO and wife? That reeks of all kinds of inappropriateness. It's also creepy she married him because he reminds her of his father. If I had to guess there's an established character who will turn out to be Cylon, it's Dualla.

I don't think any more established characters are Cylon though.

MaddyStrut

10-23-2006, 06:21 PM

Speaking of Tyrol and Cally, what's their military status? Did they leave the colonial fleet prior to going to NC and hooking up? Come to think of it, what is the status of Gaeta, Starbuck, Tigh, and any other fleet members on NC? Did they all resign their commissions?

They're going to have a tough time integrating everyone back into the fleet (if they want to get back in, and I can't imagine they'd want to find some other job now that they're running again). I don't see Starbuck willingly following Cat as CAG. Nor do I see Cat or any of the other active fleet members who spent the past 16 months on active duty being happy about suddenly taking orders from those who resigned and had to be rescued.

But I think that the rag-tag fugitive fleet is going to be even more stretched thin after abandoning just about everything on New Caprica. I doubt the Resistance would have been able to pre-load much on the ships without the Cylons noticing, so they had to leave all those metal frames, equipment, food, oracle tents, and the like behind.

Just hope somebody brought the dog along.

This made me laugh. I read your paragraph on limited resource--including food--and then read the dog line. My first thought was that you hoped they brought the dog along as food! Hey, I guess they are going to be getting hungry!

silenus

10-23-2006, 06:25 PM

Moore addresses that in the podcast if you are interested.

Care to hit the high points for us? :)

Della

10-23-2006, 06:32 PM

I have a question that I don't think has been addressed here so far.

What exactly does Gaeta know about the relationship between Baltar and Caprica Six? We know that Gaeta's seen them together and they've not made any fuss about their relationship. Has any human ever heard Caprica Six called Caprica Six? Has any human ever asked why she's called that and how she and the president know each other?

Other than that, great episode and great discussion. Can't wait for friday!

carnivorousplant

10-23-2006, 06:36 PM

Care to hit the high points for us? :)
He thought she could survive falling 90,000 feet and jumping near the surface having survived a nuke with minor consequences during the miniseries. "We aren't going to lose any damage we took in this episode". He planned to take out Pegasus from the start; as was posted above, "It is named Battlestar Galactica" although first plans had the ships attacking together and the basestars going after a wounded Pegasus, unable to jump.
He teased about whether Ellen knew Saul was killing her, mentioned how sad everyone was to lose the actress. The special effects guys, I believe, had a "Save the Pegasus" banner hung in front of his office.
He was drinking scotch.
:)

silenus

10-23-2006, 06:40 PM

Cool. Thanks.

carnivorousplant

10-23-2006, 07:30 PM

I knew she had a scene with the fleet. I just saw her fly over the Doctor's Office before the President to be discovers she has cancer.

carnivorousplant

10-23-2006, 08:08 PM

I knew she had a scene with the fleet.

The firefly class vessel named Serenity, of course.
:)

Absolute

10-23-2006, 08:14 PM

He teased about whether Ellen knew Saul was killing her, mentioned how sad everyone was to lose the actress.
Not a Cylon, then.

elmwood

10-23-2006, 08:15 PM

That was so frackin' cool!

Best. Scene. Ever. On. Television. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6p9_KGK_sb0)

Oakminster

10-23-2006, 08:24 PM

Best. Scene. Ever. On. Television. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6p9_KGK_sb0)

Someone explain to me why there was no gianormous shockwave that pretty much flattened everything under the ship?

Absolute

10-23-2006, 08:31 PM

Someone explain to me why there was no gianormous shockwave that pretty much flattened everything under the ship?
The ship was still pretty far away from the ground when it jumped away.

However, they did get one thing right: did you notice the air rushing towards where the ship was when it jumped away, because it left a big pocket of void that had to be filled?

carnivorousplant

10-23-2006, 08:31 PM

Someone explain to me why there was no gianormous shockwave that pretty much flattened everything under the ship?
Because once you begin violating the laws of physics, (FTL) it's all too easy to continue. :(

levdrakon

10-23-2006, 08:41 PM

Someone explain to me why there was no gianormous shockwave that pretty much flattened everything under the ship?What would be the source of the shockwave?

Oakminster

10-23-2006, 08:51 PM

I would assume the shockwave would come from the underside of Galactica (sonic boom) and/or the release of whatever magic allows it to jump away.

Loopydude

10-23-2006, 08:55 PM

Well, I think the Galactica probably would have produced a pretty shattering sonic boom. Though having a city full of people with bleeding eardrums might have been more realistic, I can see how the writers wouldn't want to deal with universal deafness.

carnivorousplant

10-23-2006, 09:00 PM

I would assume the shockwave would come from the underside of Galactica (sonic boom) and/or the release of whatever magic allows it to jump away.
According to the podcast, she jumped into the upper atmosphere and had no ability to manuever; she fell from 100,000Ft to say 200 Ft. V=1/2at^2 and all that. Somebody figure that out and see if she was supersonic.
There will be a test Tuesday.

levdrakon

10-23-2006, 09:18 PM

According to the podcast, she jumped into the upper atmosphere and had no ability to manuever; she fell from 100,000Ft to say 200 Ft. V=1/2at^2 and all that. Somebody figure that out and see if she was supersonic.
There will be a test Tuesday.

Just the fact her hull was glowing red would suggest she was supersonic.

But how much physical damage would the sonic boom do?

carnivorousplant

10-23-2006, 09:32 PM

x=1/2at^2
100,000=1/2(32)t^2
40 = t

x=vt
100000=v40
v=2,500 ft/sec=.47 miles/sec = 1692 mph = mach 2.3

So without air resistance she's making almost 2.5 times the speed of sound.
I wish Ron would get a math guy better than me.

Can Chronos or somebody check this?

anu-la1979

10-23-2006, 09:39 PM

Please forgive me my ignorance of military protocol...what is the difference between warrant officer, commissioned officer and enlisted?

ElvisL1ves

10-23-2006, 10:13 PM

We don't quite know what value of g to use, anyway.

Wouldn't Tyrol be a petty officer, not a warrant officer? Oh, what the hell, in that navy a colonel is a carrier XO and a commander outranks a captain.

Priam

10-23-2006, 10:16 PM

Enlisted servicemembers are the lowest ranks of the armed forces. When enlisted folk get promoted far enough, they become warrant or non-commissioned officers, meaning they oversee and order others but are not "commission". Commissioned officers generally go through military training at places like West Point, where they're taught much more than your average boot camp would. Once graduated, they start out higher in the chain of command than any non-com (ensigns and the like). Commissioned officers are the ones that rise to high rank, like Generals or Admirals.

A non-com can be promoted to commission rank, but to my knowledge that's rare and quite a difficult feat. Does the concept get on your nerves? It sure as hell rubs me the wrong way, but that's a discussion for a different thread.

levdrakon

10-23-2006, 10:21 PM

Please forgive me my ignorance of military protocol...what is the difference between warrant officer, commissioned officer and enlisted?It can get kinda complicated defining a warrant officer. It depends on which country (or planet), and within the country it can depend on which branch of service. A warrant officer in the Navy or Marine Corps might be different than a warrant in the Army.

In very, very simple terms a warrant officer is like an enlisted person but with a lot of experience and/or highly specialized skills so you have to pay them more and treat them like you would an officer. Without being an officer, technically.

You can read more about warrant officers here. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warrant_officer#United_States)

carnivorousplant

10-23-2006, 10:33 PM

We don't quite know what value of g to use, anyway.

Nor do we know the density of New Caprica's atmosphere.
However, she wasn't going anywhere near Mach 2 when she jumped. We could see her. :)
I guess the moral of the story is that Ron needs to hire a physics guy.

silenus

10-23-2006, 10:43 PM

The Vorlon

10-23-2006, 11:01 PM

She didn't fall anywhere near 200 ft. above ground. The Galactica jumped after falling for maybe 20 seconds. She went from 90,000 to maybe 10,000 feet. Nowhere near Mach 2. Terminal velocity would work out to about 600 mph counting air resistance.

V(t) may be 600mph, but who says she was at rest when she jumped?

Remember, the Bucket is a few thousand feet long. I second the 10k+ height of the jump---only thing wrong was the shockwave hit the ground too soon.

Loopydude

10-23-2006, 11:04 PM

The short answer is there are too many unknowns to calculate the Galactica's velocity. Consider the glowing heat of reentry. If the Galactica started at a velocity of zero and began freefall, it wouldn't have enough time to heat the air beneath it to incandescence. But you saw glowing hot gas under Galactica's belly almost immediately. That tells you right off the bat it was probably moving at a very high mach the moment it jumped in.

Anyway, the formula for free-fall time is t=(2*distance/g)^0.5, I believe, assuming zero initial velocity, and no air resistance. I get about 79 sec. from 100,000. As the velocity will be g*t, I get about 1724 mph.

Again, the Galactica must have been going way faster than that.

Merijeek

10-24-2006, 12:43 AM

I guess the moral of the story is that Ron needs to hire a physics guy.

Not necessarily. Here I am with my Battlestar pushing a huge shockwave ahead of it. Said shockwave is being forced through the air by the big old Battlestar.

But suddenly that Battlestar is gone...AND there's a Battlestar-sized vacuum immediately behind the shockwave.

What'd the shockwave do?

-Joe

Loopydude

10-24-2006, 08:51 AM

I was thinking about reintegration this morning on the way to work (yes, I need to get out more).

We already know there are going to be death squads, and that Tigh is somehow involved, and that it's not going to be pretty.

But also: There was a pretty bad culture clash between the Pegasus and Galactica crew, and Cain's abrubt crew reassignments didn't exactly smooth things over. Shortly after that, New Caprica happened. Now there is no Pegasus. Lee has lost his command. The crews of both Battlestars are now one crew. Many of the erstwhile positions were filled by others (e.g. Helo as XO and tactical opps., Cat as the Galactica CAG, Dualla as the Pegasus XO, etc.) All of these men and women who remained in space, and served with tremendous distinction leading up to and during the rescue, are probably going to feel conflicted if they have to surrender their positions to those who held them before.

Then you've got Galactica's current XO married to a Cylon, who is now an officer of the Colonial forces. I'm sure plenty of New Caprican (twice now) refugees, who probably hate and distrust the Cylons even more than before, if at all possible, with never ever accept Sharon Agathon as one of them. Quite the opposite, I would expect her to be a perpetual target for assasination.

Hell, there's enough potential for internal strife here just in the military to make the Galactica pop open from all the tension buildup. I wonder how RDM & Co. going to handle it.

Lightray

10-24-2006, 08:57 AM

This made me laugh. I read your paragraph on limited resource--including food--and then read the dog line. My first thought was that you hoped they brought the dog along as food! Hey, I guess they are going to be getting hungry!
Oh no! Muffit!!

mrklutz

10-24-2006, 01:21 PM

Then you've got Galactica's current XO married to a Cylon, who is now an officer of the Colonial forces. I'm sure plenty of New Caprican (twice now) refugees, who probably hate and distrust the Cylons even more than before, if at all possible, with never ever accept Sharon Agathon as one of them. Quite the opposite, I would expect her to be a perpetual target for assasination.
Yup. In fact, when I first saw the scene with Cally getting set free from the prisoners, I imagined her getting away, getting a sniper rifle, and finding a spot where she could ambush Boomers. <crack> "Bye, Sharon." <crack> "Bye, Sharon." <crack> "Bye, Sharon."

levdrakon

10-24-2006, 01:26 PM

True. With Cally around, Boomer may have to get herself a portable resurrection tank and a few spare bodies.

silenus

10-24-2006, 01:54 PM

No, no, no. The way it works is, Cally and Boomer are at each others throats for a couple of episodes. Then, something snaps and they attack each other, rolling around in a shallow pool of oil while pulling hair and tearing each others clothes. Then something happens to make them realize that they have to co-operate to survive. Wearing not much, they work together, make it through alive, and then head for the showers in a display of solidarity, snapping towels at each other and washing each others hair.

Or is that just the way I think it should happen? :D

MacTech

10-24-2006, 01:59 PM

I was reading the TWOP forums last night, and one of the posters there had a very good point about this episode and the Cylons attitude towards the Humans....

if after witnessing the Galactica's inter-atmospheric jump ("The Adama Maneuver") it should become *clear* to the Meatbags that they're *NEVER* going to be able to completely subjugate the Human race....

if one lone Human is willing to take his big frakkin' battlestar and let it drop like a rock towards the surface of the planet**, launching Vipers, and jumping out at the last second, they're never going to be able to completely wipe out the will to resist...

(**"what's this thing coming towards me very fast, so big and flat and wide it needs a big, wide sounding word like ow, round, GROUND!, that's it GROUND!......I wonder if it'll be freinds with me.....")

anu-la1979

10-24-2006, 02:09 PM

MacTech, you're talking about Humungin's "psychotic act of badassery" "Most heavily armoured fat kid cannonballing with a grenade between his teeth" post, right? That was truly fucking inspired. I cackled like crazy after reading that.

brossa

10-24-2006, 03:16 PM

Oh no! Muffit!!
'A dog that good, you don't eat all at once.'

I loved this episode, but the thing that literally made me jump in my chair was seeing Olmos shave his lip against the grain. Christ, that made the hair on my neck stand up. Maybe if my face were made out of boot leather like his, it wouldn't bother me, but man... Maybe next week he can take his contacts out with a fishhook to show how tough he is.

Cervaise

10-24-2006, 03:19 PM

if one lone Human is willing to take his big frakkin' battlestar and let it drop like a rock towards the surface of the planetOr perhaps more pragmatically, "if one solitary leader is somehow able to impress upon the hundreds of people underneath him that jumping the battlestar above a planet and letting it drop like a rock is a good idea, and they don't respond by pissing themselves and flying into mutiny..." :D

silenus

10-24-2006, 03:20 PM

I think all of the pissing themselves was being done by the "hundreds of people underneath him." Literally! :D

Ponder Stibbons

10-24-2006, 03:40 PM