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RickJay
09-21-2000, 12:11 PM
Everybody always rags on Britney Spears and the Backstreet Boys and other bubblegum acts, but frankly that's like shooting fish in a barrel. It's like saying you don't like puppy-kickers.

So who does everyone hate in the music scene, present or past, who isn't a talent-joke a la Britney? You have to pick someone at least one adult will think is terrific.


My first pick

SARAH McLACHLAN. IMO, Sarah McLachlan is unquestionably the biggest hack in music.

Being a Canadian I got to watch her first few videos when she was unknown and they were getting airplay because of Canadian content rules. She was okay. Then she came out with more videos, and then more, and it finally dawned on me that she sucks. Why does she suck?

a) She's been singing pretty much the same three damned songs since she came up. "Building a Mystery" is just "Possession" redux. She's a remarkably untalented songwriter inasmuch as she keeps writing the same songs Philip Marchand (and allegedly a few other folks - ask Daryl Neudorf) wrote for her ten years ago. Hell, she even stole the title and cover of her last CD from Neil Young.

b) Sarah McLachlan is every bit as carefully marketed a product as Britney Spears, and always has been. From the get-go she's been tagged as an "artsy singer-songwriter" to fill a particular genre - her recording company freely admits to this, BTW - to the point that they had other people write her songs and gave her the credit.

I saw her live on MuchMusic last year and it was the funniest goddamned thing I've ever seen. The set was lit with candles of varying colours, despite the ample lighting available, to give it that Artsy Look. McLachlan was dressed in Artsy Clothes. The audience appeared to be entirely comprised of people named Jason and Muffy, all between the ages of 20 and 29 wearing Gap khakis and blue button-up shirts. There were no visible minorities to be seen. The entire audience was seated on the floor, presumably because that's much artsier than chairs. In between songs McLachlan gave carefully prepared speeches on what they meant. I was on the floor; it was great in a bad sort of way.

Then two years ago she released a forGodssakes cookbook. You have to see this cookbook to believe it. Everything is a Highly Artsy Dish - no chili dogs in this cookbook, believe me. Most are vegetarian dishes (of course) and are made up for looks, not taste. They look as appetizing as a box of two-inch nails.

One dish was called "Possession Pancakes," which had me laughing for several minutes. I assume her sequel cookbook will include:

- Path of Corn
- Building a Moussaka
- Sucrose Surrender
- Fumbling Towards Eggs

c) I'm fucking sick of her voice. She can sing properly when she wants to, but instead she prefers, when holding a note, to hold it with that funny back-of-the-throat tone she's famous for, which of course is the easy way out but also seems to be the artsy thing to do. I don't know how to describe it except to call it "Kermit voice." I hate that.

d) I don't have any problem with Lilith Fair, though to be honest I'd be likelier to go if Sarah McLachlan wasn't performing at it. I've seen McLachlan live and I think she sucks shit; she doesn't hold a candle to live acts like Sheryl Crow.

A few years back McLachlan was tasked to perform live at the Junos, which is kind of the Canadian Grammies. Or maybe it WAS the Grammies, I dunno. No, it was the Junos. Anyway, she gets up there with two assholes with guitars and, rather than breaking into song, implores the audience to sing along with her as she does "Ice Cream." This was right after "Fumbling Towards Ecstasy" was released, so of course nobody knew "Ice Cream" and stumbled along while she did an atrocious rendition of it. Friends, when you're on a nationally televised awards show and you don't even bring your whole fucking band, instead choosing to do a second-rate scaled-down version of an mediocre, unreleased single,
all the while imploring the audience to help you out even though YOU'RE the one with the record contract, you have not yet mastered the concept of good live music.

Maybe I'm ragging on her too badly for a few live performances but my yardstick of high-quality rock and pop acts is how good they are live. If they're better than they are on their albums, they're good. If they make you want to listen to albums by other bands, they're not good. Sarah McLachlan is the latter.

And another thing; I don't believe for one fucking instant she started Lilith Fair as a feminist statement, though I believe lots of people got involved with it for that reason. I think she started it because it was a way to make moolah and get more people out to her concerts because some people will come to watch actual talent like Sheryl Crow and the Indigo Girls, but Sarah gets a fat cut of the take. There's nothing WRONG with starting a concert to make dough, but at least be honest about it. Side note: I cannot help but notice that despite her alleged support of female acts, HER band is made up entirely of guys.

e) It's unrelated, but I think she's fuckin' ugly, too.


To summarize my rant: I think Sarah McLachlan is a phony, lying, plagiarizing, two-faced harpy who's been hacking her way through success more because of her canny marketers than anything she's ever done herself. Her music is repetitive, boring, unimaginatively written and essentially unchanged from 1988, except now it's a little bit worse. She's a mediocre singer, a shitty live act, and her videos suck too. I'd rather spend forty-eight hours power-felching for a live studio audience on FOX's "World's Worst Dysentery Cases Weekend Marathon" than spend ten minutes watching Sarah McLachlan on stage. Sarah McLachlan fucking eats it raw.


Who else do you folks hate?

Coldfire
09-21-2000, 12:17 PM
OK, so we need musicians that admittedly have some talent, but for some reason are really annoying anyway, right?

I give you:
Alanis fuckin' Morrisette

Especially after she went all spiritual and shit.

"Thank you India"? Please. Another tourist to "find her inner self" there. Just what we needed, Alanis.

Squid Vicious
09-21-2000, 12:35 PM
Why is everyone listing singers? I thought the op wanted musicians.

ponch
09-21-2000, 12:42 PM
Kenny G - Extremely technically tallented, but unfortunatelly his songs lack any emotion of soul.

Ted Nugent - style, no substance, and an ego to boost.

I had the honor of meeting Mr. Pavarotti - what a prima donna asshole.

Stella*Fantasia
09-21-2000, 12:56 PM
Amen to Sarah McLachlan and AMEN to Alanis Morrisette. (Ugh! Ugh! Ugh!) I'm also gonna rain down some hate on their fellow female singer-songwhiner-types Tori Amos (get some fuckin' therapy & stop taking your neuroses & traumas out on the music world!) and Jewel (there's a special place in Hell for her & her godawful poems.)

MikeG
09-21-2000, 12:59 PM
Billy Corgan and Smashing Pumpkins.
I saw these hacks a decade ago when they couldn't get into the Metro. I wasn't surprised. Their subsquent success is mystifying. The music is boring, uninspired, insipid dreck that revolves around Billy's incessant whining and moaning about how life sucks- give it a rest!
They are almost the only band that causes me to leap for the knob when they come on.

Honorable mention:
Michael Jackson- "He Who Shall Not Be Named" as the mere mention of this hideous mannequin child fucker causes severe nausea.

QuickSilver
09-21-2000, 01:10 PM
Mousey Gray - Knock off the cutsie stuff will ya!
Tracy Chapman - Oh, the god awful whining.
Barbra Streisand - Haven't we suffered enough already?
Ricky Martin - and how are you different from Enrique Eglesias?
Enrique Eglesias - and how are you different from Ricky Martin?
Eminem - yup, there's a huge tallent and a complete departure from the rest of acid (c)rap.
Lenny Kravitz - What did I just say about whining?!! Huh?!
Madonna - First it was Lard-ass then it was Rocko. Where are the children's welfare services through all this?

I could go on but I feel my blood pressure starting to rise.

Turpentine
09-21-2000, 01:12 PM
I must agree over Sarah McLachlan, Tori Amos, and Alanis Morisette.
Basically I hate all that Lillith Fair bitch power shit.

I hated the Lillith Fair because it gave the impression that all feminists were whiny bitches who spout bad poetry about pain and ex-boyfriends and CELEBRATE that they are bitches. Give me a fuckin' break, it's PC thugs like them who keep the rest of us from getting husbands!


I'm female and I think feminism is better represented by Bjork, who does her own thing and is tough and feminine, yet not dripping with PMS power.

I have always hated Dave Matthews, he's just GRATING, and recently i have grown to hate APOP Beserk and VNB Nation, two goth-shit bands.

oldscratch
09-21-2000, 01:16 PM
I'm just shocked that someone would devote so much time and effort to a post about Sarah Mc-L.

Damn. You must really hate her to devote that kind of effort. I'm afraid that most musicians come under a simple indifference on my part. I just can't get that worked up about any of them.

pepperlandgirl
09-21-2000, 01:21 PM
Well, I have better things to do with my time then worry about musicians I hate. I just ignore the ones that I don't like. Like oldscratch, I simply feel indifference to them.

Ricky Martin - and how are you different from Enrique Eglesias?
Enrique Eglesias - and how are you different from Ricky Martin?
Easy, Enrique Iglesias has talent, Ricky Martin has none.

Trout Mask Replica
09-21-2000, 01:23 PM
Jewel: If she weren't a blonde with big tits, she'd still be up in Alaska writing halfassed poetry and getting passed around by the fishermen.

Liam and Noel Gallagher: Either start writing your own songs or start paying royalties to the Beatles, you fucking Neanderthals.

Puff Daddy: He takes perfectly good songs, imparts his own unique brand of suck to them, and makes a bajillion dollars in the process. There is no justice in this world.

andros
09-21-2000, 01:27 PM
Kid Rock.

every time I see his ugly-ass, no-talent, white-trash face, I wanna shake him and say, "Christ, boy, I liked you in Clerks. But where's Silent Bob, huh?"

dietrologia
09-21-2000, 01:39 PM
All members of Rage Against the Machine.

The "Angry Minority Rebelling Against The White Man" theme is old and tire.

Love how they rail against the very corporations that are backing them and enabling them to rake in mountains of cash.

BillyBoy
09-21-2000, 03:07 PM
Originally posted by pepperlandgirl

Ricky Martin - and how are you different from Enrique Eglesias?
Enrique Eglesias - and how are you different from Ricky Martin?

Easy, Enrique Iglesias has talent, Ricky Martin has none.
[/B]

IIRC, a few months back there was a sound file working its way around the internet... it was Enrique, at some concert in Europe, singing in to a mike which was not supposed to be one but in fact, was (oops!). As a result, they caught a very unfortunate rendition of "Rhythm Divine".

Due to the wonders of the information age, thousands of people now had this funny and embarrassing sound clip. Now, some of you will say that this file was faked - pretty easy to do, and you've gotta take any information from the web with at least one, and possibly several, grains of salt.

The great thing is, Enrique verified it for all of us. He went on Howard Stern's radio show, armed only with his voice and an acoustic guitar. I do have to give him a bit of credit for that - not many artists will lay themselves on the line like that to defend their skills, and Howard Stern is about as unforgiving a show as you will find. However, his performance was, well, extremely shaky. It was better than it had been in the aforementioned sound file; but not quite as good as my next door neighbor Phil.

More talent than Ricky Martin? Quite possibly a correct statement, but it's kinda like saying that pork has a higher citrus content than beef.

Suo Na
09-21-2000, 03:18 PM
I must agree on Tori Amos. She's taken the all-men-are-potential-rapists too far now. One song about her fucked up childhood would be enough.

I can't understand why people like her music. I can only figure that the women think she's deep ("She really understands what it's like to be abused!" Like hell she does.) The men, I've found, don't pay attention to the words, just to her cunt-grinding on the corner of the piano bench.

I've managed to convince Mr. Na that Amos hates all men, therefore would be insulted that he listens to her music.

Mockingbird
09-21-2000, 04:01 PM
Ok, I can see most of the slams on here... save Madonna and Sarah McLachlan.

Sarah plays piano and does it well. Most of the 'artists' today couldn't play an instrument with skill if you held them at gun point. So you don't like what she sings? Fine. A lot of us do like her work and will listen to it often.

Madonna. This is one of the most prolific targets for attack in music I've seen. She has expanded her range and talent and has become a good singer and a decent actress. What she really does well is business. She is an incredibly brilliant businesswoman. She has the only artist owned label that is successful. She has incredible savvy, which is why her career is almost 20 years of success.

I can agree with a lot of the pimpslaps. When it comes to Eminem, I wonder if he is plain, peanut, or crunchy. Britney, her clone Aguleria, and the Backdoor Boys and their clones make me ill. There are a lot of worthy people to slam out there, as there always has been in popular music.

I wish there were more diversely talented artists out there like Annie Lennox. I think the Eurythmics are the best band to come out of the 80s.

Ivar
09-21-2000, 04:43 PM
Amen to Dave Matthews!

Pretentious arty farty hack.

I used to see him play the frat parties at college in Virginia, he sucked then, still does, and is adored by the same idiots who thought "Sweet Home Alabama" was the greatest song ever written.

BillyBoy
09-21-2000, 05:00 PM
Amen to Dave Matthews!

Pretentious arty farty hack.

I used to see him play the frat parties at college in Virginia, he sucked then, still does, and is adored by the same idiots who thought "Sweet Home Alabama" was the greatest song ever written.



Whoah there... I'm gonna have to disagree with this one. Dave Matthews and crew are arguably one of the best live bands around, and the fans have the bootleg tapes to prove it. Each member of his band is a great musician, and they join forces to create a delightful mix of rock, jazz, country, and some other stuff that doesn't always fit neatly into any category. I also find his songs a refreshing change from the cookie-cutter tunes being cranked out by most artists today.

Yep, he's arty... being an ARTIST, that's not a bad way to be, wouldn't you say? Name me a decent musician who isn't.
Pretentious? How so?

I'm also not understanding the correlation between Dave Matthews and Sweet Home Alabama, but whatever.

pldennison
09-21-2000, 05:09 PM
Suo Na:. I can only figure that the women think she's deep ("She really understands what it's like to be abused!" Like hell she does.)

Um, for what it's worth, she actually was a rape victim, and does a lot to raise money to help other rape victims.

I've managed to convince Mr. Na that Amos hates all men,

I guess that's why she married one. :rolleyes:

Hastur:Madonna. This is one of the most prolific targets for attack in music I've seen. She has expanded her range and talent and has become a good singer and a decent actress.

Oy. I have to disagree here. Her acting is passable at best, atrocious at worst, and pretty much everybody knows it. She has all the range of Keanu Reeves, with less ability to sell a line. As far as singing, well, that horrendous off-key rendition of "Ray of Light" at the Grammys or whatever a couple of years ago was pretty indicative of her skills. Madonna is, unfortunately, mistaken for a trendsetter when what she is is a trendrider. She looks for whatever genre is hot, and puts out an album of it.

Re: Dave Matthews--IMHO, one of those groups that fall, like Yes and Rush, under the category of "Extremely Talented Musicians Who Create Abominably Dull Music."

BillyBoy
09-21-2000, 05:26 PM
Re: Dave Matthews--IMHO, one of those groups that fall, like Yes and Rush, under the category of "Extremely Talented Musicians Who Create Abominably Dull Music."

Oh no! I kinda like Yes and Rush too. But to each their own... guess we won't be swapping CD's anytime soon :)

In any event, I'm with ya on the Madonna thing.

Coldfire
09-21-2000, 05:29 PM
Phil,

I am at a loss. What to do?

1) Thank you for backing up the talented Tori Amos, who has NO business being mentioned in this thread;
2) Tear you a new one for calling Yes and Rush dull.

Help me out here. Which do you prefer?

johnson
09-21-2000, 06:14 PM
Phil Collins. 'Nuff said.

Falcon
09-21-2000, 06:42 PM
Originally posted by pldennison
Re: Dave Matthews--IMHO, one of those groups that fall, like Yes and Rush, under the category of "Extremely Talented Musicians Who Create Abominably Dull Music."

Hrm.....guess I won't be trading CDs with Phil soon..... But I'll forgive ya hon. Even if you do like the GoGos. ;)

Coldfire
09-21-2000, 06:47 PM
Apparently, Phil prefers "Abominably Dull Music" created by "Extremely Untalented Musicians" :p

even sven
09-21-2000, 08:04 PM
Ugh! Dave Mathews is evil with his inane wailing. Ugh!

But I hate Ani DiFranco. I'm from Santa Cruz, CA, where hateing Ani DiFranco is the one thing that will get you the death penalty. But ugh! her voice is so annoying and I wish she would just sing instead of her inane wailing and "artsy" screeching. She sounds like an out-of-tune ally cat. And her songs arent even deep. Half-assed rhetoric mixed with whineing about lame signifigant others. Shut Up! We want orgional thought, not just a party line. And as for her whole "independent artist" crock, why do her concerts cost thirty bucks? There are plenty of independent artists playing fifteen buck shows and they arnt all dead. And they dont feel comelled to flaunt their state of independence every three seconds (while releaseing an album full of filler every year to milk the fans.)

neutron star
09-21-2000, 08:07 PM
I have a feeling that most of these people who are ragging on Tori haven't heard a single song she's written since her first CD. Yes, Little Earthquakes was an emotionally-draining and beautiful CD and she drew much of the inspiration for it from the pain of being raped. And, FTR, she wrote exactly one song about being raped.

And...um...you know she's released four albums since then with entirely different sounds. In fact her last two have a little bit of a techno/dance flavor to them.

She signs autographs and talks with her fans before and after every concert she plays. By all accounts, she's one of the friendliest, most approachable artists in the business. She takes requests and does some amazing covers of everyone from Springsteen to The Cure to Nine Inch Nails.
She's even covered Amazing Grace, Home on the Range, and Somewhere Over the Rainbow and actually made them sound good!

Oh, and I think a big fat FUCK YOU!!!! is in order, aimed squarely between the eyes of Suo Na for an offensive, ignorant, ill-informed, piece-of-festering-shit post. It's assholes like you that are part of the reason that many women don't come forward after being raped.

Count me among the men who don't care about her "cunt-grinding on the corner of the piano bench" (what a ladylike thing to say, BTW), and love her because she's simply the most talented singer/songwriter on the planet.

Coldfire
09-21-2000, 08:12 PM
Amen, says I.

Her cover of "Smells like Teen Spirit" is bone-chilling too, neutron. I take it you know that already, of course. If not, drop me a line.

MikeG
09-21-2000, 08:25 PM
And "from the choirgirl hotel" almost got me arrested!
I had to drive from Chicago to Indianapolis on a Fri. evening. I had the cd playing for the first time and Raspberry swirl came on. I looked down a minute later and I was doing 105mph :eek:

Hey Coldfire, if you're in Amsterdam, I hope you don't have to work today! 0220 ouch

Coldfire
09-21-2000, 08:28 PM
03:28, actually. And yes, I do have to work. But I have very weird sleeping patterns - don't worry about me ;)

neutron star
09-21-2000, 08:50 PM
Great cover, CF. From the Crucify EP, if I'm not mistaken. Have you heard any of her live, bootlegged covers? I saw a list somewhere a while back of all the songs she's covered in concert. Over 100, IIRC.

And in case you haven't heard, Tori is a mommy now. She gave birth to a healthy baby girl last Monday. If she grows up to have 1/10th the talent of her mom, I'll buy all her CDs.

MikeG
09-21-2000, 09:08 PM
Yeah I'm a Tori fan. It grew from my love of Kate Bush - I still think Tori takes a lot of her style from her but that's a good thing! If you haven't heard KB and are a Tori fan do so at once! For some reason I have heard derisive comments from KB fans re. TA but I just don't get it. They are talented musicians working from their own experiences but with a common thread of "style" IMHO

Mr. Blue Sky
09-21-2000, 09:40 PM
Originally posted by MikeG
Yeah I'm a Tori fan. It grew from my love of Kate Bush - I still think Tori takes a lot of her style from her but that's a good thing! If you haven't heard KB and are a Tori fan do so at once! For some reason I have heard derisive comments from KB fans re. TA but I just don't get it. They are talented musicians working from their own experiences but with a common thread of "style" IMHO

I'm with you. I picked up on KB after watching USA's old Night Flight show featuring her "Live at the Hammersmith Odeon" concert. Went out and bought "Hounds of Love" and eventually everything else. Pity she hasn't done anything since "The Red Shoes". Saw TA's "SOTY" video on VH1 and was hooked. I now have 31 cd's and 3 videos as well as several tapes full of TV appearances.

On the OP, though: Alanis can bite me. I've heard a lot of her teeny bopper crap from the late 80's. She secured the rights to all this drivel in order to prevent it's re-release. Too bad she can't control E-Bay!!

She can't be the "angry young woman" forever, though. The fire has to go out eventually. If she doesn't change, she'll disappear. Oh, and when she does, she can Fionna "heroin chic" Apple with her. Hey, Fionna, EAT SOMETHING!

NicePete
09-21-2000, 10:47 PM
Remember before he acquired the 900 pound block of pretense and he was plain ol' Johnny Cougar?

Yeah, unh huh. Whatever.

RickJay
09-21-2000, 10:55 PM
Madonna. This is one of the most prolific targets for attack in music I've seen. She has expanded her range and talent and has become a good singer and a decent actress. What she really does well is business. She is an incredibly brilliant businesswoman. She has the only artist owned label that is successful. She has incredible savvy, which is why her career is almost 20 years of success.

Bill Gates is a hell of a businessman. I wouldn't watch his music videos.

I would say, though, that Madonna is the second-best actress in the world. Everyone else is tied for first.

daval12
09-21-2000, 10:56 PM
you pack of lifeless sexless dweebs, if it weren't for you i'd feel inferior to everybody-- anybody up for a fight?!!!

daval12
09-21-2000, 11:03 PM
by the way, i did bjork at the living room, (while she was still with the suger cubes)those handles on her head come in quite handy

Silo
09-21-2000, 11:59 PM
Originally posted by daval12 you pack of lifeless sexless dweebs, if it weren't for you i'd feel inferior to everybody-- anybody up for a fight?!!!

I'm up for a fight!

Originally posted by daval12
by the way, i did bjork at the living room, (while she was still with the suger cubes)those handles on her head come in quite handy

Wow, she must have been drunk and desperate. From your posting you seem about as attractive as a shit in a swimming pool.

neutron star
09-22-2000, 01:43 AM
Alanis can bite me. I've heard a lot of her teeny bopper crap from the late 80's.

Now, now. I think y'all aren't giving Alanis enough credit. I'm not crazy about all of her music, but hey, she's still young and she's proven herself to be a brilliant songwriter. And everybody (except Rush) sucked in the '80s.

I have four words for you : "Y Kant Tori Read." Bleh. I rest my case. :)

Lexicon
09-22-2000, 02:00 AM
Well, several musicians suck.

I don't think that I hate any of them, but there are many that make my skin crawl with their "music"

I hate to disrespect the dead, but
John Denver's caterwauling mad me fly into a rage...

My songs make you nauseousssssssss,
Like a date with your moth-eeeeerrrrrrrr!

And Barry Manilow...
Now that shit'll make you put a gun in your mouth.

And what's the deal with Tammy Wynette? Doesn't she know that normal people sing with their mouths instead of forcing notes out their sinuses?

There are so many "musicians" that fuckin' suck, I can't name 'em all in one breath. And I have huge fuckin' lungs.
Boy George
Milli Vanilli
Vanilla Ice
The new George Michael
Snoop Dogg
Frank Sinatra Jr.
Tiny Tim
Elton John
Captain and Taniel sp?
Olivia N. John
Flock of Seagulls
Biz Markie
The new Bon Jovi
Duran Duran
Men With Hats

Silo
09-22-2000, 04:17 AM
Welcome to the "Holy Grail" of suck:


Journey (OMG!!! they SUCK so fucking bad)

B-52s (The most airheaded monkey-fuck-shit I've ever graced my eyes and ears apon)

REO Speedwagon (It's challenging to be as wussy a pussy and pathetic as this)

Cyndi Lauper (Baaaah!)

STYX (just major crap, SUCKS to the n!th degree!)

Winger (Hey look at my white teeth, I suck so bad)

Nitro (Some of the WORST videos ever and verrry annoying)

Skid Row/ Ratt/ Bad English = Indefinate SUCKIENESS

Menudo (Nosotros suckos muchos!)

Milli Vanilli :rolleyes:

Motley Crue (Aww ...they fucking suck too)

Dokken (Even though I like George Lynch's guitar work they basically sucked)

Rush (Sorry Coldfire, but the majority of their songs suck pretty bad IMO. Don't think I put Rush last on this list because they don't suck as much as the others mentioned. They probably do. But anyways I'll drop it and respect your opinion on them ;))

TwistofFate
09-22-2000, 04:27 AM
I'm going to disagree with Rage Against the Machine.
At least they have ideals, which is better than most of the shit you get from the charts these days. They are a very talented bunch of musicians, Guitarist Tim Morello being one of the best guitarists in the world at the moment. If you dont like their message, dont listen to it. If you dont like the music, turn it off, but at least they are trying to say SOMETHING.

TwistofFate
09-22-2000, 04:31 AM
Originally posted by daval12
by the way, i did bjork at the living room, (while she was still with the suger cubes)those handles on her head come in quite handy
no, you must be thinking of your sordid rondevous with a goat, who you kept quiet with sugar cubes.

Broken Doll
09-22-2000, 04:39 AM
I can't stand Fiona Apple. That scrawny bitch...grr

Silo
09-22-2000, 04:52 AM
Guitarist Tom Morello being one of the best guitarists in the world at the moment.

Really? I always thought he was good but never held him in quite that regard. BTW, my mom went to Harvard too.

TwistofFate
09-22-2000, 05:31 AM
maybe not in a Carlos Santana or a Stevie Vai twiddly twiddly guitar face style, but technically and as an innovator he ranks up there. The sounds he can get out of his axe are amazing

pldennison
09-22-2000, 05:46 AM
Coldfire: I'll take the thanks, and one Guiness, if ya don't mind! :D

FWIW, my main problem with Rush is Geddy Lee's voice, and a major case of penis envy over his bass playing. I think the Moving Pictures album is an Ameri . . . er, Canadian classic, though.

You'll never convince me that Yes is cool though. Never, I tells ya!

Coldfire
09-22-2000, 06:00 AM
Phil, follow these simple instructions:

1) Buy the album "Relayer" (1974);
2) Insert in CD player of choice (do not use car player. Dangerous.);
3) Turn up volume to insane hights;
4) Sit in comfy chair and close eyes;
5) Listen to track 3, "Soundchaser". The most insanely technical piece of hyperactive progrock ever made.

6) (Optional) smoke a joint whilst doing so.

Also, their latest (1999) album "The Ladder" is fantastic, combining the progressive Yes of the 70's with the crisp Yes of the 90's. Give it a try, DL a few MP3's to see if you like it.

Coldfire
09-22-2000, 06:06 AM
CRAP. Soundchaser is track 2, not 3. Please forgive me ;)

plastiktom
09-22-2000, 11:21 AM
mariah carey could die in a car crash with brian adams...
mmmh feel better already!

Ivar
09-22-2000, 11:39 AM
Billy Boy!

I never said that Dave Matthews was untalented. I only said he was a hack. As in songwriter. I think he and his band can play, but the songs? Oh man how painfully boring. The songs all sound the freakin same anyway!

Pretentious? Yeah, cuz he thinks he's so fuckin good, he thinks he's the fuckin bomb or whatever.

And his fan base usually reminds me of a bunch of frat boy backwards baseball cap wearin pseudo hippies, who, when I went to school in Virginia, were the same people who thought Lynyrd Skynyrd kicked ass.

HalberMensch242
09-22-2000, 12:04 PM
Turpentine Said-"i have grown to hate APOP Beserk and VNB
Nation, two goth-shit bands. "

Ok 1st off..neither VnV or Apop are "goth shit bands", they're not even goth bands to begin with. Apop to a point can considered goth due to the annoyance level of the singers voice. But VnV is as far away from goth as..ted nuget is from being a gangsta rapper. VnV is an EBM/synth-pop project, and are a wonderfull band, in my opinion. Fantastic lyrical content, and great( some people say a bit simple) beats mixed in with classical arangments. I'm not saying that you're right or wrong about calling those bands crappy, just make sure you know what kind of music it is before dissing it.

..thinks that VnV is the best thing to happen to EBM since sliced bread..or Front 242.

BillyBoy
09-22-2000, 12:30 PM
I never said that Dave Matthews was untalented. I only said he was a hack. As in songwriter. I think he and his band can play, but the songs? Oh man how painfully boring. The songs all sound the freakin same anyway!

All I can say on this is that I disagree. I myself find more variety in the Dave Matthews songs than most everybody else on the radio. But that could be just me... individual tastes may vary...

Pretentious? Yeah, cuz he thinks he's so fuckin good, he thinks he's the fuckin bomb or whatever.

But this... what are you talking about? Can you back this statement up?

And his fan base usually reminds me of a bunch of frat boy backwards baseball cap wearin pseudo hippies, who, when I went to school in Virginia, were the same people who thought Lynyrd Skynyrd kicked ass.

Ok, I'll buy that... but IMO, you can't judge the artist by their fans.

BeerDog
09-22-2000, 12:53 PM
I'm with BillyBoy, Dave Matthews is fucking great!

I also like Fiona Apple and Alanis doesn't quite make me vomit.

As for bands/singers that I think suck but some people like (God knows why), I submit the following ;

- Whitney Houston
- Nirvana
- Smashing Pumpkins
- Bryan Adams
- any band that uses a cutesy name (ex. boyz 2 men)
- Celine Dion (she is evil incarnate and must be stopped, although she does smell great)

And the biggest suck band U-fucking-2. These pretentious dipwads are worse than iron nails on a frozen blackboard.

Strainger
09-22-2000, 01:15 PM
Um, Ivar, Lynyrd Skynyd did kick ass. Get it straight, will ya.

I agree with Phil regarding Yes, Dave Matthews, and Rush, with a few exceptions (e.g. Yes' "Leave It").

The group I really hate is (was) the Doors. Some time ago, another SDMBer descibed their work as "bad poetry set to bad music." I agree. I especially hate "Riders on the Storm." What a ponderous, monotonous piece of crap that song is. What are there, about three notes throughout the whole thing?

CrankyAsAnOldMan
09-22-2000, 01:19 PM
I was very impressed by the OP--I mean, such detailed analysis of why one hates a singer! And most of it rang true. I only have one album but I find that I can't tell which song is which until she hits the refrain....

I love threads like this. :-) Well done, everyone.

For my contribution, ever since seeing that slob who leads "Blues Traveler" on a VH1 show (The list) I don't think I'll ever be able to listen to three bars of their music again. I just found him unspeakably obnoxious, immature, attention-grubbing, and IRRELEVANT. Lord he was hateful. Not that I was a big fan of the band anyway....

BillyBoy
09-22-2000, 01:30 PM
regarding Celine Dion...

Originally posted by BeerDog
although she does smell great

Ok, this grabbed my attention. How did you come to be aware of her sweet-scented nature?


regarding Blues Traveller...

Originally posted by CrankyAsAnOldMan
For my contribution, ever since seeing that slob who leads "Blues Traveler" on a VH1 show (The list) I don't think I'll ever be able to listen to three bars of their music again. I just found him unspeakably obnoxious, immature, attention-grubbing, and IRRELEVANT. Lord he was hateful. Not that I was a big fan of the band anyway....

I do love Blues Traveler, but I didn't see the show that you saw, so I am way too uninformed to argue on this one. He is a big, fat, slovenly dude though - I dunno if I could ever really call someone with a girth like that irrelevant.

Turpentine
09-22-2000, 01:43 PM
Ok 1st off..neither VnV or Apop are "goth shit bands", they're not even goth bands to begin with. Apop to a point can considered goth due to the annoyance level of the singers voice. But VnV is as far away from goth as..ted nuget is from being a gangsta rapper. VnV is an EBM/synth-pop project, and are a wonderfull band, in my opinion. Fantastic lyrical content, and great( some people say a bit simple) beats mixed in with classical arangments. I'm not saying that you're right or wrong about calling those bands crappy, just make sure you know what kind of music it is before dissing it.


Hey Halbermensch

You would have to check a couple of my recent posts to know why I even said that.
I don't dislike bands that are loosley labeled "goth" and I like synth-pop a lot.
I only said that I had grown to hate these two because i have aquired a new unwanted rommate.
He seems to have only two CDs and he plays them CONSTANTLY.
I don't like him, therefore everything he touches seems to turn to crap.
I hadn't heard of either of these bands before he moved in, then he started playing these two cds, over and over and over.
I think you would hate them too if they were the first thing you heard every morning, first thing you hear blasting after an annoying day at work and would really just like to space out and watch the Simpsons instead of music, and the last thing you hear before you go to bed at night causing a delay in sleep because it's so loud and persistent, and the only thing you get to listen to all weekend.

I need to add another to the list of hated musicians-

PINK FLOYD. Ick, ick, ick.

pepperlandgirl
09-22-2000, 01:48 PM
Lynard Skynard DOES kick ass, shit-for-brains. :D

Ivar
09-22-2000, 02:12 PM
Originally posted by pepperlandgirl
Lynard Skynard DOES kick ass, shit-for-brains. :D

You love them so much, yet you can't spell their "expletive deleted to protect pepperlandgirls' pure mormon eyes" name right?

Hate to nitpick, but I couldn't help myself.

I dunno man, Dave Matthews just has this attitude. Plus the fact that he puts out all these live albums with no or little new material and expects fans to shell out 17.99 is pretty pompous in my book.

Ivar
09-22-2000, 02:15 PM
Oh wow, I just saw another post in which Pepperlandgirl used the word fuck, so forget my little mormon barb above and replace with the word "fuckin'".

BeerDog
09-22-2000, 02:19 PM
How did you come to be aware of her sweet-scented nature?

I met her (Celine Dion) awhile back at Sam the Record Man in Toronto. She was doing some kind of record signing thing (this was before she came into power as the world dominating sappy-music French-Canadian overlord). I was there for the first time, just looking around, and I got in the wrong line. Next thing I knew, this smiling petite little French woman was shaking my hand. I did actually realize who she was (thanks in large part to the posters behind her), but, not being a fan of her music, all I could think to say was;

" You smell like a million damn dollars."

She did too . . .

HalberMensch242
09-22-2000, 02:26 PM
To Turpentine:

I know how you feel..i, for a period of 2 years, hated anything electronic because all my sister played was on Prodigy and one Chemical Brothers cd..sence i associated those two with electronica..i therefore hated all electronica. But low and behold..i'm an electronic music conoseur now..how ironic.

ps..it's really too bad that you were exposed to VnV in such a bad light

Tymp
09-22-2000, 03:37 PM
Originally posted by even sven
But I hate Ani DiFranco. I'm from Santa Cruz, CA, where hateing Ani DiFranco is the one thing that will get you the death penalty.
Congratulations on living in Santa Cruz. What do you want, a fuckin’ biscuit? How does your city have anything to do with DiFranco?
But ugh! [H]er voice is so annoying and I wish she would just sing instead of her inane wailing and "artsy" screeching. She sounds like an out-of-tune ally cat.
Hm. That’s funny. I think of her as having a most impressive range and ability. To whom are you comparing her? Is it possible that you are incapable of understanding singing more complicated and evolved than that of Brittany Spears or Fiona Apple?
And her songs arent even deep. Half-assed rhetoric mixed with whineing about lame signifigant others. Shut Up! We want orgional thought, not just a party line.
? ? ? Stop. Oh, god, please stop. You’re making me giggle uncontrollably over here. This is a joke, right?
And as for her whole "independent artist" crock, why do her concerts cost thirty bucks? There are plenty of independent artists playing fifteen buck shows and they arnt all dead. And they dont feel comelled to flaunt their state of independence every three seconds (while releaseing an album full of filler every year to milk the fans.)
Do you understand what it means to have an independent label? You seem to be confusing that with piss poor garage bands that just aren’t good enough to charge a living wage for their product.

Have you ever wondered how she can be so prolific? Have you ever wondered how she could have accomplished all that she has at her young age and still have lived an interesting life about which to write songs? I wonder these things.

All emphasis in the above quotes is mine

BillyBoy
09-22-2000, 03:55 PM
I dunno man, Dave Matthews just has this attitude. Plus the fact that he puts out all these live albums with no or little new material and expects fans to shell out 17.99 is pretty pompous in my book.

I can explain about all the live albums.

It all started with Phish. Both groups have a fan base that loves, loves, loves live material. These are bands that don't play the same song the same way twice, and the variations are what people live for. Phish fans are notorious for trading bootleg performance tapes. The record companies saw this, and little light-bulbs appeared over their money-grubbing heads. Why not release an official live album? They'll love it!

And they did. So then the record execs say, hey, if one sells, why not 2? or 3? And so it begins...

From there, it was a simple trick to notice that a significant portion of the Phish fans are also Dave Matthews fans. Aha. So they made a live Dave Matthews album, and it also sold extremely well.

My instinct is that neither Phish or Dave Matthews had a lot of say in these matters, and I have heard tell that the Phish ones were done to help them more painlessly finish the 5-record deal that was forcing them to crank out albums much faster than they cared to. I can't substantiate that part though, and could be dead wrong.

I don't know about the album pricing, but I don't think that Dave and crew have much say in that, either.

Necros
09-22-2000, 04:15 PM
Led Zeppelin.

No, wait. Let me explain. Led Zeppelin kicks ass. They kick ass hard. They are an awesome band.

Except for Robert Plant. Robert Plant's voice makes me want to pour acid into my earhole. I can't stand his screechy ass.

But the rest of the band rocks.

Coldfire
09-22-2000, 08:42 PM
Originally posted by Turpentine
I need to add another to the list of hated musicians-

PINK FLOYD. Ick, ick, ick.

Remind me to NEVER discuss music with you again. At least Phil likes Tori ;)

RickJay
09-22-2000, 11:11 PM
I'm surprised nobody's mentioned REM yet. They used to be one of the best bands in the world - "Automatic For The People" is far and away one of the finest albums of the last twenty years.

Their last album was probably the worst album I have ever paid money for, and I bought Duran Duran's "Seven and the Ragged Tiger" back in the early 80's. Every song sounded identical, and it was one terrible song. It sounded as if they'd just sort of played random tunes, cut them up into four-minute blocks, and released it.

REM's last album was so bad that after I'd listened to it I wanted to cut my own head off. REM is, more than anything else, tired. They just don't have anything left, and it shows.

alibey
09-23-2000, 12:11 AM
Originally posted by Turpentine
I need to add another to the list of hated musicians-

PINK FLOYD. Ick, ick, ick.


guess that you haven't heard "Dark Side of the Moon", eh?

Timeless album, borrow a copy and give it a listen.

Silo
09-23-2000, 12:21 AM
I need to add another to the list of hated musicians-

PINK FLOYD. Ick, ick, ick.
[/B]

Whaaa???

Kyla
09-23-2000, 01:20 AM
But I hate Ani DiFranco. I'm from Santa Cruz, CA, where hateing Ani DiFranco is the one thing that will get you the death penalty.

Congratulations on living in Santa Cruz. What do you want, a fuckin’ biscuit? How does your city have anything to do with DiFranco?

Ani DiFranco is practically the poet laureate of Santa Cruz. It's probably illegal to say something mean about her there. When she played there a couple years ago, it was almost a city holiday.

But ugh! [H]er voice is so annoying and I wish she would just sing instead of her inane wailing and "artsy" screeching. She sounds like an out-of-tune ally cat.

Hm, that's funny, I think of her having a most impressive range and ability. To whom are you comparing her? Is it possible that you are incapable of understanding singing more complicated and evolved than that of Brittany Spears or Fiona Apple?

Are you Ani DiFranco's older brother or something? Why are you upset by even sven's opinion? FWIW, I agree with her, Ani DiFranco should try singing instead of yelping. I like some of her songs, and admire her independence, but it's ridiculous that you think that a dislike of her voice equals inability to appreciate music. I don't hate her, but your over-the-top defensiveness is kind of weird. You aren't from Santa Cruz, are you?

I really, really, really don't like Eminem. Also, Cher. Anyone see the episode of South Park where the police tried to end a party by playing Cher at them? Ohmylord, their imitation of her was hysterical.

boli
09-23-2000, 01:49 AM
GO Turpentine! I hate Pink Floyd too. All their music sounds the same. Yes, I've heard Dark Side of the Moon, more times than I care to remember.

I've never cared much for Led Zeppelin either, so let the flames rain on my ass. I don't care. They suck.

TroubleAgain
09-23-2000, 02:11 AM
Originally posted by Silo


Journey (OMG!!! they SUCK so fucking bad)

Cyndi Lauper (Baaaah!)


Ouch...I'm very much a product of the 80's, so those two are part of a lot of warm, fuzzy memories for me...and I still listen to Journey. Love 'em. Wore out two Greatest Hits cassettes before I got the CD. Oh, well, everyone's entitled to like or dislike whatever they want to. I despise a lot of bands that are considered to be "great."

pldennison
09-23-2000, 07:06 AM
Coldfire, as far as Floyd goes, I like them but I have my limits. Not only don't I think Dark Side is the best rock album ever, I don't even think it's the best Floyd album. I will listen to Piper at the Gates of Dawn, Meddle, The Wall and Wish You Were Here first. :) (The Wall falls apart in a couple of spots, but I think it's a great achievement as an album.)

I don't really own any of Tori's stuff, but I do like several of her songs. God and Caught a Light Sneeze are damned good songwriting and arrangement.

'Course, I still need to kick RickJay's butt over the OP. :D I adore Sarah. I've met her and interviewed her for radio, and she is one of the nicest, sweetest, most sincere people I've ever met. And, honestly, the fact that she might not write her material doesn't affect the songs any more than the fact that the Monkees were prepackaged makes Last Train to Clarksville a bad song.

I agree with you on REM, though. I haven't bought anything since Automatic either (although that album is better than I remember it being). It gets to the point where their new stuff is so bad it almost makes me dislike their old stuff!

HalberMensch242
09-23-2000, 01:38 PM
Ok..here is a bands that i absolutely hate
Creed-..do i really need a reason to hate em
Joy Electric- Christian Synth-pop..egad!
limp bizkit- see Creed
SPK- it's not that i hate..they just scare the living shit out of me
The boy bands..all of em- no brainer there

What's up with people hating Floyd?

Silo
09-23-2000, 02:01 PM
Originally posted by Coldfire
Yes can be learned.

Does that make you a yes man? :D

Mr. Blue Sky
09-23-2000, 02:20 PM
Originally posted by neutron star
[quote]I have four words for you : "Y Kant Tori Read." Bleh. I rest my case. :)

Well, at least she'll admit to doing that. Alanis is trying to rewrite her own history. I'm sure she doesn't appreciate VH1's "Before They Were Stars" showing her teeny-bop around singing about boys.

black rabbit
09-23-2000, 04:54 PM
RE: Dave Matthews:
A pretty good Indicator of Suck is the descriptor "eclectic," or any permutation therof. I once had some hesher waiter at a Perkins describe his band as a mix between "Pink Floyd, Primus, and Pearl Jam." Duuuuuude. I bet you rock.

ADDENDUM:
Any ostensibly 4 or 5 peice rock group that needs a 20 peice orchestral section for a single appearance on Saturday Night Live. Alternately, any whitebread suburban rock band that suddenly acquires a backup vocal section consisting of three African-American women who would probably be stopped and frisked if caught in the other band members' parents' neighborhoods.

ADDENDUM #2:
That Ian motherfucker from Jethro Tull. The Guess Who (see: Lester Bang's rant about hippie fuckin Canadians). The Who post Keith Moon. The Beatles post clean-shavedness.

ADDENDUM #3:
Ridin that train
High on cocaine
The music's really boring
The fans are real lame

Trouble behind
Trouble ahead
I'm so goddam grateful
That Jerry is dead.

ADDENDUM #4:
I could do this for hours, so I'll leave you with:
Every band from Seattle, ever, except for the Catheters.

chief
09-24-2000, 04:57 AM
Originally posted by boli
GO Turpentine! I hate Pink Floyd too. All their music sounds the same. Yes, I've heard Dark Side of the Moon, more times than I care to remember.

I've never cared much for Led Zeppelin either, so let the flames rain on my ass. I don't care. They suck.

try reading some floyd lyrics.. they are actually really good.
and zeppelin , well they are all great musicians and wrote some great songs, not to mention inspired a ton of other bands..

Coldfire
09-24-2000, 07:43 AM
Originally posted by pldennison
Coldfire, as far as Floyd goes, I like them but I have my limits. Not only don't I think Dark Side is the best rock album ever, I don't even think it's the best Floyd album. I will listen to Piper at the Gates of Dawn, Meddle, The Wall and Wish You Were Here first. :) (The Wall falls apart in a couple of spots, but I think it's a great achievement as an album.)

I agree. The best Rock Album Ever is Rush's Moving Pictures :D

And I, too, prefer several PF albums over DSOTM. For some reason that does not only rely on sheer quality, Wish You Were Here is my favourite. Although The Wall rocks too.

It's great being a psycho, and cover it all up by saying "you just like Floyd, that's all".

sveglio
09-24-2000, 03:10 PM
This is a nice thread. While I won't be as descriptive as the original poster, I will give my two cents as to why I abhor the artists(losers) below.



NIN - Boring. Depressive. Monotonous. It's all noise to me. And what the hell is he saying? I can't hear him over the music. Well, if you call that music. I mean, it's like he turned his television to channel 01 and recorded the fuzz.

Korn - Everything I said about NIN applies with Korn as well. I'm willing to donate a chord book to their guitarists.

Limp Bizkit - With all the money they make, you would figure that the lead singer could afford a new hat. And did someone castrate this guy? Why does he have to sing in that annoying high-pitched voice? He reminds me of all the wiggers I went to High School with.

Cher - Let's face it, when Cher sings it sounds like an animal is being tortured. She basically has no vocal range whatsoever.

Madonna - Does anyone really give a shit how many times she has "reinvented" her look?

Whitney Houston - I think it's sad that Whitney Houston is recognized for a song (I Will Always Love You) that was originally written by Dolly Parton. Whitney needs to thank Dolly, because Dolly is paying her bills.

Carlos Santana - Next to Kurt Cobain, Carlos is probably the most overrated guitar player, ever. It would of been interesting to see how well his "Supernatural" album panned out if he didn't have that HUGE crutch of corresponding musicians on his album.

Puff Daddy
"Ma$e" <-- Don't you just love the "$"? What a hoser.
Jay Z
'N Sync
Backstreet Boys
Britney Spears
Snoop Dog
Kriss Kross
Eminem
Master P
Dr. Dre

And last and certainly least, Eric Clapton and B.B. King.

Now, I like these guys, but their latest effort is so sad
and pathetic. I wish someone would admit these two into the worn-out musicians retirement home. Cher and Madonna need to be admitted there also. ;)

anya marie
09-24-2000, 04:32 PM
LIVE suck with their "i wanna be crucified" sound, thier wannabe Buddhism, incomprehensible lyrics "it was an evening i shared with the sun, to find out where we belong" "can you hear the dolphins cry?"
and their singer? the man sounds like someone is sharpening their razors on his dick. ed kowalczyk is starting to resemble uncle fester!

blink-182 sucks goat shit!! cannot write or sing to save thier lives and probably spend a lot of time being drunk and getting tattooed like the wannabees they are.

the doors? just because jim morrison died young, does not make him worthy, the more i hear it, the more i loathe it.
and i especially hate "light my fire" and that one song where he screams"mojo rising" like a defective alarm siren.

also to the list i shall add
Snoop Dogg, Master P, Richard Marx,
the cranberries, and vertical horizon

HalberMensch242
09-24-2000, 05:36 PM
NIN and "suckin" are two words that burn ones eyes and scold ones tounge, or at least that's the effects it has on me. I mean, even the most conservative music critics hailed The Fragile as a masterpiece. Trent, in my opinion is musician extrodinaire, he does all the instruments, he sings, and produces and mixes all of his tracks, what more could you ask for? I mean i guess i could understand your low opinion of NIN just from the songs that are played over the airwaves, but for a closer and truer look, please check out the Fragile..or at least use Mr.Napster

Junior Spaceman
09-24-2000, 06:44 PM
Originally posted by sveglio
Whitney Houston - I think it's sad that Whitney Houston is recognized for a song (I Will Always Love You) that was originally written by Dolly Parton. Whitney needs to thank Dolly, because Dolly is paying her bills.


Just like to point out, even though I like F-Whit a fair bit less than the runs after a dodgy curry, it's Whitney who's helping to pay Dolly's bills, which is a good thing, cause it lets Dolly avoid having to do commercial records herself, and she can do great ones like her last bluegrass record :D

And Mr Half Man, don't you think the band that started it all (and gave you your name), Einsturzende Neubauten show up NIN, manson, etc as a bunch of talentless, idea-less hacks?

HenrySpencer

dropzone
09-24-2000, 07:38 PM
Dave Matthews Band - The band itself sounds great. Dave's vocal stylings first made me want to stuff his head through a plate glass window, but then I saw them play on TV. His spastic motions like a dimestore David Byrne and obvious self-infatuation based on no visible talent still make me want to stuff his head through a window, but now I want to shove his neck back and forth until his head falls off.

The Doors - I used to co-edit a poetry magazine in college and I can tell you that Jim Morrison's poetic development was arrested in sophomore year. Not senior, not freshman. Very specifically sophomore year. Ray Manzarek (keyboards) was recently described by NPR as being "classically trained," but I always thought "circus trained" was closer to the mark.

All those whiney folkies? Give me someone who can sing, whether she writes her own material or not.

Now, The Five Americans--that was a band!

HalberMensch242
09-24-2000, 07:59 PM
Originally posted by HenrySpencer


And Mr Half Man, don't you think the band that started it all (and gave you your name), Einsturzende Neubauten show up NIN, manson, etc as a bunch of talentless, idea-less hacks?

HenrySpencer

Hehe..congrats..you're the 1st person to decifer the name..supprised you didn't indentify with the front..242. But back to your comment..sure EN stands a million miles higher then NIN as far as creativity goes, but NIN has a nack for righting great "pop" songs, i'd never call em industrial, but trent reznor can make some fine musical arrangments. Oh, by the way..manson is pretty bland, i agree with you on that point.

Ruffian
09-24-2000, 08:24 PM
...and I do. Sort of. I love Jagged Little Pill; despite the notoriety of "You Outta Know," the entire album isn't a bunch of man-hating vehemence. It's musically different, interesting, and creative.

Her next album, Supposed Former Infatuation Junkie, is...uh...interesting. It is definitely an acquired taste. Acquired or not, "So Pure" and "Unsent" still suck. What really, really is starting to annoy me about Alanis is she is taking to "solos" on instruments she obviously has never touched before, and good gravy it's painful to hear. For example, the awful flute playing on "That I Would Be Good," and the most atrocious harmonica solo EVER on a concert rendition of "Hand in My Pocket" I heard on the radio a while back. Her entire solo was TWO NOTES. TWO! Over and over again! And the crowd actually went nuts! Arrrrggghhh!

All that to say that I like Alanis, at least 1 1/2 albums of Alanis. Live, or playing any instrument, and I'm done.

Now, who I think su-u-UCKS:

1) Jennifer Lopez. It is obvious she can't sing; she never sings live. But who cares if she can sing, she's hot, right? :rolleyes:
2) Limp Bizkit. Nothing interesting to say, not even an interesting way to say it, and they didn't give a fuck that women were being raped in the mosh pit at their Woodstock performance.
3) Madonna. This one's tricky--she's an excellent performer. But as a musician, she can't sing or write worth shit.
4) Macy Gray. Make it stop! MAKE IT STOP!
5) Pearl Jam, mainly due to the worst single from this past decade: their rendition of whatever that thing's called..."Oh where oh where can my baby be..." ARRRRGGGGGGHHHHH! ACK! ICK!

RickJay
09-24-2000, 10:16 PM
Originally posted by anya marie
LIVE suck with their "i wanna be crucified" sound, thier wannabe Buddhism, incomprehensible lyrics "it was an evening i shared with the sun, to find out where we belong" "can you hear the dolphins cry?"

Chalk me up for someone who cant stand "Live." I liked "Throwing Copper" but any band who releases a song with the word dolphins in it should be summarily executed.

I apologize to any marine biologists, but dolphins are not cool subject matter for a rock song. Dolphins, wolves, and eagles don't work as images because they evoke images of shittily air-brushed T-shirts with blue-eyed wolves and dolphins leaping through rainbows. No, no way, no fucking dolphins. And "can you hear the dolphins cry" sounds like a Cyndi Lauper song.

Sublight
09-24-2000, 11:03 PM
Two that I can't stand.

1) Post-Roger Waters Pink Floyd
2) Post-Pink Floyd Roger Waters

Those two needed each other. After the breakup PF turned into a top-40 kiddie-pop/complaint-rock band, and Waters turned into that cranky old guy who's always muttering to himself at the bus stop.

--sublight.

Sigh. my 100th post, and it's in the Pit.

Turpentine
09-25-2000, 10:50 AM
Yeah, i have listened to Dark Side of the Moon too many times.
I admit the Wizard of Oz thing is fun with that album, especially the Muchkin scene, but that's about all Pink Floyd is good for.

I am tempted to say i hate Jimmy Hendrix, just to see the reaction, but that's not true. Jimmy's unbelievable.
Let's see...

Whitney Houston

Journey

The Eagles

Sisters of Mercy

Faith and the Muse

Elvis

Maeglin
09-25-2000, 11:30 AM
Jesus Fuck, somehow people have managed to insult VNV Nation, Zep, Pink Floyd, and Jethro Tull on this thread. I confess I just don't understand what kind of musical aesthetic would exclude such extraordinary bands.

MR

sveglio
09-25-2000, 11:53 AM
Henry; Yeah. ;) It goes both ways.

SqrlCub
09-25-2000, 12:06 PM
I hate the Googoo Dolls and their incredibly insipid Broadway song. The lyrics are bad and the music is elementary. I am surprised that anyone actually listens to it. I forcefully turn the radio off when I hear it come on. I know enough about the music business to know that number one hits are pretty much chosen beforehand by their executives and potential marketability but the staying power of the songs is determined more by the people. This song is so repetitive and idiotic that the people whom I have seen who like it seem to have gone through some type of Clockwork Orange conditioning when it comes on. The song can do no wrong in their eyes.

Did I mention I hate this song and the performers now too. I hate the performers because they managed to make a song that thoroughly annoys me. I think the next time I hear that song I will go annoy the postal workers and then tell them I work at the radio stations that play that song. That would be a treat but I would probably be dead by then. ;)

HUGS!
Sqrl

stofsky
09-25-2000, 12:08 PM
Originally posted by sveglio

Carlos Santana - Next to Kurt Cobain, Carlos is probably the most overrated guitar player, ever. It would of been interesting to see how well his "Supernatural" album panned out if he didn't have that HUGE crutch of corresponding musicians on his album.


I'll agree with everyone else you mentioned, but good Lord!, what do you have sitting in your ears? Or is "Supernatural" the only Santana album you've heard? As a guitarist for 21 years--most of that playing lead--and a student of American music forms, I've got to say that CS is one of the most talented, innovative guitarists since Les Paul made the first solidbody! Sure, "Supernatural" sucks; why do you think it was so popular? "Abraxas" isn't much better; that's why you hear the songs from it on the radio. But sit down and listen to "Europa" or "Live at the Fillmore." You'll change your opinion.

The reason Santana's been hyped, lately, as such a great guitarist is that he is. Unfortunately, the first album to get him serious recognition is probably his worst (shit! Did I call it an album? Age check!).

BTW, one of his earliest rhythm guitar players was Neil Schon. The keyboard player at the time was Greg Rolie. If you want to hear what Journey could have been if Steve Perry hadn't come in, check out "From the Beginning" (I think). Weird, psychedelic, free-form, LSD stuff.

RickJay
09-25-2000, 12:12 PM
The reason Santana's been hyped, lately, as such a great guitarist is that he is. Unfortunately, the first album to get him serious recognition is probably his worst (shit! Did I call it an album? Age check!).

It's an album. An album is a compilation of music, usually 8-15 songs, released together as a single recording. You can get an album on a CD, a cassette, a record, or, I suppose, via Napster.

HalberMensch242
09-25-2000, 12:21 PM
Good thing Depeche Mode hasn't been mentioned..and if they are to be mentioned, i'll be dogedly defending them with my fancy lookin pants.

sveglio
09-25-2000, 12:37 PM
Sorry. Halber; An old friend of mine likes NIN and has repeatedly tried to turn me onto them. I've heard The Fragile album and thought it was awful. A mess even.

Originally posted by HalberMensch242
I mean, even the most conservative music critics hailed The Fragile as a masterpiece.

So?
-

Anyone could play a few instruments if they understood the basics of music. Trent hardly plays though. He'll play a few notes and repeat it... and repeat it. I think he's given too much credit. The music in itself is one-dimensional, repetitious, and monotonous. Also, he tries to be depressive, but it comes off as immature drivel that would only appeal to the 13-15 crowd. Basically, he has nothing to say, other than life sucks, which is a shitty worldview in my opinion.

sveglio
09-25-2000, 12:47 PM
Sorry. Halber; An old friend of mine likes NIN and has repeatedly tried to turn me onto them. I've heard The Fragile album and thought it was awful. A mess even.

Originally posted by HalberMensch242
I mean, even the most conservative music critics hailed The Fragile as a masterpiece.

So?
-

Anyone could play a few instruments if they understood the basics of music. Trent hardly plays though. He'll play a few notes and repeat it... and repeat it. I think he's given too much credit. The music in itself is one-dimensional, repetitious, and monotonous. Also, he tries to be depressive, but it comes off as immature drivel that would only appeal to the 13-15 crowd. Basically, he has nothing to say, other than life sucks, which is a shitty worldview in my opinion.

sveglio
09-25-2000, 12:58 PM
Sorry. Halber; An old friend of mine likes NIN and has repeatedly tried to turn me onto them. I've heard The Fragile album and thought it was awful. A mess even.

Originally posted by HalberMensch242
I mean, even the most conservative music critics hailed The Fragile as a masterpiece.

So?
-

Anyone could play a few instruments if they understood the basics of music. Trent hardly plays though. He'll play a few notes and repeat it... and repeat it. I think he's given too much credit. The music in itself is one-dimensional, repetitious, and monotonous. Also, he tries to be depressive, but it comes off as immature drivel that would only appeal to the 13-15 crowd. Basically, he has nothing to say, other than life sucks, which is a shitty worldview in my opinion.

stofsky
09-25-2000, 01:01 PM
Originally posted by RickJay
[It's an album. An album is a compilation of music, usually 8-15 songs, released together as a single recording. You can get an album on a CD, a cassette, a record, or, I suppose, via Napster.

Yeah, I know the etymology--in fact I have a few real albums in the attic, ya know, several 78 RPM records, 10 or 12 inch, with one song to a side bundled up like a, well, photograph album. But I teach college freshmen, and when I slip and say "album" instead of "CD" or "Disc," I get looked at funny. And if I mention vinyl, well, that's an unknown. "Oh, yeah, those things my parents have."


We were discussing Elvis and The Beatles today, in the idea of how they've influenced current pop culture and music, and out of 46 students, not a damn one has seen the '68 Comeback Concert! Not a damn one. And they show it on VH1 or TNT about every other weekend. I mentioned Lennon being shot in front of the Dakota, and they thought I meant the state (yes, that's the state...I know, I know). Mark David Chapman? Who's that? Paul McCartney--isn't he the guy whose wife died of cancer? Ringo? George?

May Erato, the Muse of Lyric Poetry (closest I could come to good rock & roll) help us!

BillyBoy
09-25-2000, 01:04 PM
Anyone could play a few instruments if they understood the basics of music.

I think if you're gonna make a statement like this, you should also include a list of instruments that you play and maybe some links to any relevant CD projects you have worked on :)

If you understand the basics of music, then you know that a song should not be judged by the number of notes that it contains. In fact, I can think of very few things that would be a worse indicator of song quality. Some of the greatest songs written have three chords. In fact, there are precious few songs with more than 6 chords in the entirety of music that has come out since the rock revolution. Some of the greatest musicians ever never learned how to read music. If one note conveys the mood, message, etc. that you wanted to convey, what need is there for two?

That being said, if NIN isn't for you, then it isn't for you. However, just because his music doesn't speak to your soul doesn't mean that the guy's got nothing to say.

sveglio
09-25-2000, 01:43 PM
>I think if you're gonna make a statement like this, you >should also include a list of instruments that you play >and maybe some links to any relevant CD projects you have >worked on :)


Flute, Piano, Guitar, Recorder. CD projects? Uh.


>If you understand the basics of music, then you know that >a song should not be judged by the number of notes that it >contains. In fact, I can think of very few things that >would be a worse indicator of song quality.

My point, being, he's called a genius because he plays a lot of instruments. But, I don't see it? I can play 3 piano notes, add drums, come up with some angst lyrics, and static. Then mesh it all together into repetitious noise. :)

Genius.

>Some of the greatest musicians ever never learned how to >read music.

That's you're opinion. IMO, Mozart is the greatest musician ever. And IMO, to even be labeled as a musician, you should be able to read music. That is, unless you're a complete hack.

>That being said, if NIN isn't for you, then it isn't for >you. However, just because his music doesn't speak to your >soul doesn't mean that the guy's got nothing to say.

Have you heard his lyrics? You're right, he doesn't speak to my 'soul'. I'm happy. I enjoy life, and I don't plan on committing suicide anytime soon.

HalberMensch242
09-25-2000, 01:50 PM
Yeah..i see your point..But did you have to post the exact same message 3 times?!

HalberMensch242
09-25-2000, 01:54 PM
NIN's lyrics aren't that freakin "depressing" as you put it, at times they can be uplifting, but for the most part they're mellow..i think a lot of your criticism comes from the fanbase that NIN has been associated with, and i don't blame you.

sveglio
09-25-2000, 02:43 PM
Sorry about the multiple posts, it kept timing out on me. :(

HalberMensch242
09-25-2000, 03:05 PM
Don't be sad..i didn't mean to jump on you like that..god, i can be such a jerk sometimes..

BillyBoy
09-25-2000, 03:15 PM
Originally posted by sveglio
CD projects?

Yeah, you heard me. If your assertion is that what Trent is doing is easy and doesn't take any skill, then we can only assume that you have done the same thing... how else would you know it is easy?

Originally posted by sveglio
My point, being, he's called a genius because he plays a lot of instruments. But, I don't see it? (etc)

I'll agree that genius is maybe too strong a word. However, there is a great deal of difference between what goes into a NIN album and the random tossing-together of some random sounds.

Originally posted by sveglio
Originally posted by BillyBoy
>Some of the greatest musicians ever never learned how to >read music.
That's you're opinion.(etc.)

Yep, sure is. Unless you wish to assert that most of the jazz and blues greats were shoddy musicians, I'm surprised its not yours too. Hacks indeed.

Originally posted by sveglio
Mozart is the greatest musician ever.(etc)

No question, he was one talented dude. Do you think he played every single instrument that he gave a part to in his symphonies?

Originally posted by sveglio
Have you heard his lyrics? You're right, he doesn't speak to my 'soul'.(etc)

Fair enough.

Turpentine
09-25-2000, 03:34 PM
Originally posted by HalberMensch242
Good thing Depeche Mode hasn't been mentioned..and if they are to be mentioned, i'll be dogedly defending them with my fancy lookin pants.


Ah, I feel so glad to find one we agree with.

Depeche Mode is brilliant- most of the time.
So is Einsturzende Neubauten. I saw them just a few months ago at Axis.

pldennison
09-25-2000, 03:37 PM
Prior to his NIN days, Trent Reznor spent some time in two Cleveland bands. One, Hot Tin Roof, played rather pedestrian, albeit melodic, power pop. I have one or two of their Reznor-era songs on a compilation CD. The other, the Exotic Birds, was a synth-pop, Depeche Mode-style group, who were best known for an abominable cover of "Day After Day" by Badfinger. I think Reznor was out of the band by then, however.

OpalCat
09-25-2000, 03:38 PM
Originally posted by Turpentine
I need to add another to the list of hated musicians-

PINK FLOYD. Ick, ick, ick.


Now you must die.

OpalCat
09-25-2000, 03:43 PM
ADDENDUM #2:
That Ian motherfucker from Jethro Tull.


WHAT?!?!? Why?

stofsky
09-25-2000, 03:48 PM
Originally posted by BillyBoy
Originally posted by sveglio
CD projects?

Yeah, you heard me. If your assertion is that what Trent is doing is easy and doesn't take any skill, then we can only assume that you have done the same thing... how else would you know it is easy?




That's a crock. Have you tried to cough up the dough to get something recorded lately? How about found the luck to get it marketed? Some of the best musicians are unrecorded and not under contract merely because of the nature of the beast.

BTW, Trent Reznor is a piece of shit. He somehow got signed, somehow got enough money to set up a recording studio, and now that he has the gear and the connections, we'll never hear the end of his flatulent garbage.

And this is from someone who plays 4 instruments, reads music, and appreciates both the ability to play in a group, improvise, and read.

>Some of the greatest musicians ever never learned how to >read music.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That's you're opinion.(etc.)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Yep, sure is. Unless you wish to assert that most of the jazz and blues greats were shoddy musicians, I'm surprised its not yours too. Hacks indeed.

Ummmm....name a jazz great who couldn't read music, from Louis Armstrong on. And I want a citation with the quote.

Me!! Joe!!!
09-25-2000, 03:50 PM
So far, posters on this thread have mentioned Sarah McLachlan, Tori Amos, Ani diFranco, Jewel and Alanis Morrisette and the general rant against all of them is that they are half-assed mediocre talents who have exploited "girl (or if you must "grrrrl") power" to make big bucks. A common gripe seems to be that they put out humorless, cliche, trite, condescending and just plain boring folk rock.

but how can all of you forget the mother of all self-important, p.c. New Agey tripe.....

NATALIE MERCHANT!!!!!!!!!!!

But I suppose the thought of her is just too painful to bare: her nasally, flat voice; her "holier-than-thou" attitude; her badly written, slow as molasses, preachy songs about the most tired politically correct clishes.

"I must be one of the wonders..." yeah right. I've no doubt she means that literally. The absolute worst thing about her is that she is original self-righteous demon seed from which spawned Sarah, Tori, Ani, Alanis, et. al.

pldennison
09-25-2000, 04:08 PM
Ummmm....name a jazz great who couldn't read music, from Louis Armstrong on. And I want a citation with the quote.

Ray Charles. Not jazz, but I bet he can't read music.

stofsky
09-25-2000, 05:02 PM
Originally posted by pldennison
Ummmm....name a jazz great who couldn't read music, from Louis Armstrong on. And I want a citation with the quote.

Ray Charles. Not jazz, but I bet he can't read music.

Tacky, tacky, tacky! :)

Though, Stevie Wonder has a machine that translates standard sheet music to braille.

Saysha
09-25-2000, 05:49 PM
[i]
but how can all of you forget the mother of all self-important, p.c. New Agey tripe.....

NATALIE MERCHANT!!!!!!!!!!!

But I suppose the thought of her is just too painful to bare: her nasally, flat voice; her "holier-than-thou" attitude; her badly written, slow as molasses, preachy songs about the most tired politically correct clishes.

"I must be one of the wonders..." yeah right. I've no doubt she means that literally. The absolute worst thing about her is that she is original self-righteous demon seed from which spawned Sarah, Tori, Ani, Alanis, et. al. [/B]

(don't know how I got italics...sorry)
And can I just take this opportunity to complain loudly about her awful speech impediment? Has anyone ever heard her say an R sound, Ever? She swallows them, and unless she has a too tight frenulum (tongue tied), this is an affectation. I cannot listen to the woman, I want to scream at her to quick curling her tongue away from her Rs!!!
And all the other stuff this person said, too.

BillyBoy
09-25-2000, 05:51 PM
Have you tried to cough up the dough to get something recorded lately?

In fact, yes I have. My band is recording a demo as we speak.

Yeah, it's pricy. You know why? Because it's not easy to do. As a result, recording takes hours, days, weeks, months to complete. More so when you are playing all of the instruments. And that's when you have somebody to turn all the knobs for you, which Trent (at least initially) did not.

Some of the best musicians are unrecorded and not under contract merely because of the nature of the beast.

Agreed. How does this have any bearing on Trent's talent or lack thereof?

Ummmm....name a jazz great who couldn't read music, from Louis Armstrong on. And I want a citation with the quote.

I don't have citations at my fingertips. I will take a look for some - if I find none by tomorrow, I will withdraw the "jazz" portion of my claim with apologies to all.

However, it has come up in this conversation that blind artists cannot read music unless it is fed into the braille translator-thingie that Stevie Wonder has. Can we go ahead and make the assumption that most blind musicians have not had access to this machine and therefore cannot read music? Makes sense to me, but let me know if there's something I'm forgetting.

OpalCat
09-25-2000, 06:11 PM
Originally posted by Saysha

And can I just take this opportunity to complain loudly about her awful speech impediment? Has anyone ever heard her say an R sound, Ever? She swallows them, and unless she has a too tight frenulum (tongue tied), this is an affectation. I cannot listen to the woman, I want to scream at her to quick curling her tongue away from her Rs!!!
And all the other stuff this person said, too.


OH MY GAWD!!!! It drives me nuts. My husband says he thinks it sounds "kind of pretty" but it just irritates me to no end. It sounds like she's trying to eat while she's singing or something.

stofsky
09-25-2000, 06:25 PM
Originally posted by BillyBoy
[QUOTE][B]In fact, yes I have. My band is recording a demo as we speak.

Yeah, it's pricy. You know why? Because it's not easy to do. As a result, recording takes hours, days, weeks, months to complete. More so when you are playing all of the instruments. And that's when you have somebody to turn all the knobs for you, which Trent (at least initially) did not.


Been there, done that, both ways, analog and digital. Fortunately, the last full-length project I did was bill-footed by the songwriter. Then he wouldn't promote the SOB. But it's nice being a gun-for-hire at time.


Some of the best musicians are unrecorded and not under contract merely because of the nature of the beast.

Agreed. How does this have any bearing on Trent's talent or lack thereof?

That was in reply to your assertion that only someone with a "relevant CD project" could answer to his talent. Anyone with recently Q-Tipped ears and a modicum of taste can answer to that. Hell, I've done 4 or 5 recording projects--some of them before CD's were cheaply available--and I don't know that you could call any of them "relevant." But I suppose that you'll have to tell us relevant to what.

Ummmm....name a jazz great who couldn't read music, from Louis Armstrong on. And I want a citation with the quote.
I don't have citations at my fingertips. I will take a look for some - if I find none by tomorrow, I will withdraw the "jazz" portion of my claim with apologies to all.

However, it has come up in this conversation that blind artists cannot read music unless it is fed into the braille translator-thingie that Stevie Wonder has. Can we go ahead and make the assumption that most blind musicians have not had access to this machine and therefore cannot read music? Makes sense to me, but let me know if there's something I'm forgetting.

OK, I'll give you Jeff Healey, Ray Charles, Stevie Wonder (pre-machine), Jose Feliciano, ummm...lessee, Ronnie Milsap.....anyone help me here? Blind Lemon? :)

I will guarantee that you won't find anyone from the swing/big/large band eras who can't read music. I doubt seriously that you'll find anyone from bebop and later who can't read.

Ruffian
09-25-2000, 07:00 PM
Originally posted by fat angel
"I must be one of the wonders..." yeah right. I've no doubt she means that literally. The absolute worst thing about her is that she is original self-righteous demon seed from which spawned Sarah, Tori, Ani, Alanis, et. al.

Okay, I can't stand her because of her flat-toned voice, but I do have to defend that song--she's not speaking of herself and bragging. The song is about the birth of a child with a disability; she's writing from the perspective of the newborn. A Down's syndrome girl, among others, is featured in the video.

There. Now, carry on with the bashing...

Silo
09-25-2000, 07:17 PM
Umm, Natalie Merchant sucks!

While I'm at it Motley Crue sucks too!

BillyBoy
09-25-2000, 07:49 PM
That was in reply to your assertion that only someone with a "relevant CD project" could answer to his talent.

Actually that wasn't my assertion (and frankly, you knew that already). My assertion was, and is, that if someone is going to make a statement, In a discussion of recorded artists, along the lines of "Anyone could play a few instruments if they understood the basics of music”, they should be able to back up their statement with knowledge of several instruments and some background with recorded music.

OK, I'll give you Jeff Healey, Ray Charles, Stevie Wonder (pre-machine), Jose Feliciano, ummm...lessee, Ronnie Milsap.....anyone help me here? Blind Lemon? :)

I will guarantee that you won't find anyone from the swing/big/large band eras who can't read music. I doubt seriously that you'll find anyone from bebop and later who can't read.


You know what? You might be right. However, I’m pretty certain I made no claim to any certain era of music, bebop, big band, or otherwise.

My original statement was simply that “Some of the greatest musicians ever never learned how to read music”. Look at the list quoted from your post (above). I doubt we could ever agree on a Best Musician Ever, but I believe it's safe to say at least some of the folks you mention can be listed among the Greats. It appears as though we agree on this one. So what’s the problem?

stofsky
09-25-2000, 10:34 PM
Originally posted by BillyBoy
My original statement was simply that “Some of the greatest musicians ever never learned how to read music”. Look at the list quoted from your post (above). I doubt we could ever agree on a Best Musician Ever, but I believe it's safe to say at least some of the folks you mention can be listed among the Greats. It appears as though we agree on this one. So what’s the problem?

No, you said, and I cut-and-paste:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by BillyBoy
>Some of the greatest musicians ever never learned how to >read music.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That's you're opinion.(etc.)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Yep, sure is. Unless you wish to assert that most of the jazz and blues greats were shoddy musicians, I'm surprised its not yours too. Hacks indeed.

I'll give you blues, but that's not a notatable form of music in its purest form. But jazz? Not a chance.

And Trent Razor-or-whatever-his-"look I have a home studio" name-is wouldn't even make the top 1000 list.


On another note (sorry about the pun, folks), an open letter to Papa Roach:

Dear Papa Roach,

I'm sorry Mommy and Daddy don't live together anymore. But if you're old enough to have 18 pieces of sharp steel inserted into your face, I don't want to hear you whine about it.

Thanks for listening,
Stofsky

P.S.
I bet you spend half-an-hour going through the airport metal detector!

BillyBoy
09-26-2000, 08:48 AM
So, you quote my original statement... then quote something else which contains my original statement... but you are unwilling to admit that it was, in fact, the original statement? Try reading the stuff you cut-and-paste. Sheesh.

[QUOTE]I'll give you blues, but that's not a notatable form of music in its purest form.[QUOTE]

Your turn - let's see some citations for this. Of particular interest would be ones stating that blues was in no way the foundation for jazz music.

[QUOTE]But jazz? Not a chance.[QUOTE]

Oh, I'm sorry, I thought we had just named a couple of them. Silly me.

BillyBoy
09-26-2000, 08:49 AM
Yikes - looks like there's a couple extra quote marker things in that last post.

Preview, stupid BillyBoy, preview!

BillyBoy
09-26-2000, 08:59 AM
Ok, let me (hopefully) fix this before someone else corrects me...

[QUOTE]Originally posted by BillyBoy
Try reading the stuff you cut-and-paste.[QUOTE]

Ok, I need to take my own advice a little bit. The first thing stofsky quoted was, in fact, from a later post of mine. It does, however, still contain the text of my original statement, which does appear in it's original form in the second quote that stofsky offered.

(Not that anyone cares but me and maybe stofsky)

stofsky
09-26-2000, 10:28 AM
Originally posted by BillyBoy
Your turn - let's see some citations for this. Of particular interest would be ones stating that blues was in no way the foundation for jazz music.

LeRoi Jones (after conversion, Amiri Baraka) Blues People: The Negro Experience in White America and the Music That Developed From It, 1963, Morrow. One claim is that the forms we know as jazz and blues, rather than field shouts, developed concurrently after emancipation. Also see Alan Lomax's The Land Where the Blues Began, 1993, Delta/Bantam, Doubleday, Dell. After years of recording early Delta blues with his father (on the old aluminum disc engraving machines), went on to become the Smithsonian's head researcher into American music.

You picked the wrong field in which to argue with me. I'll spout opinions, right, wrong, intelligent, or otherwise on a lot of subjects, but this one's my dissertation topic. I've been researching blues and jazz for 5 or 6 years, formally. And as a musician myself, I understand what I'm researching.

BillyBoy
09-26-2000, 11:05 AM
Thanks for providing those citations. However, I don't see how they back up your claim that blues is not a notable form of music. Rather, the fact that you can find references to blues music so easily would suggest that the opposite is true, wouldn't it?

You picked the wrong field in which to argue with me. I'll spout opinions, right, wrong, intelligent, or otherwise on a lot of subjects, but this one's my dissertation topic. I've been researching blues and jazz for 5 or 6 years, formally. And as a musician myself, I understand what I'm researching.

So half of what you've been studying as a formal dissertation topic for 5 or 6 years isn't actually a notable form of music, in your opinion? Bet that makes you angry, eh?

Look, I can tell from our discussion that you got a lot of musical knowledge tucked away upstairs, but none of what you say refutes my original statement, quoted and requoted and requoted (badly, by me) again in our previous messages.

stofsky
09-26-2000, 12:03 PM
Originally posted by BillyBoy
Thanks for providing those citations. However, I don't see how they back up your claim that blues is not a notable form of music. Rather, the fact that you can find references to blues music so easily would suggest that the opposite is true, wouldn't it?


My bad. I either misread or misquoted; I don't remember which. My citations were to rebut your point that jazz is offspring of blues. However, to rebut this point as well, please tell me how, on a Western (and now universal) 5-line staff, you notate a quarter-step or eighth step pitch shift, either or both of which are part of blues instrumentation or vocalization.

BillyBoy
09-26-2000, 12:26 PM
My bad. I either misread or misquoted; I don't remember which. My citations were to rebut your point that jazz is offspring of blues.

I suppose that's a valid argument... although I will say that the first citation you listed suggests that jazz and blues did at least grow from the same roots, even if one did not grow from the other.

However, to rebut this point as well, please tell me how, on a Western (and now universal) 5-line staff, you notate a quarter-step or eighth step pitch shift, either or both of which are part of blues instrumentation or vocalization.

Well, and now it appears that I had misunderstood. I thought you meant "not noteable" as in "not worthy of note", and my argument was meant to disprove such. I have never heard "noteable" used to mean "possible to transcribe". I don't know how to notate either of those things you mention, and I don't know if it can be done at all. This supports, once again, my original assertion that not all great musicians could read music.

Again, given that I am not limiting my statement to any certain era of music, and given that you have been studying jazz and blues for a number of years, I have to wonder why you have such a problem with this assertion.

AzRaek
09-26-2000, 01:39 PM
Originally posted by sveglio

Madonna - Does anyone really give a shit how many times she has "reinvented" her look?

I don't like her music or style that much, but I've reinvented my look many times since 1984.

Stella*Fantasia
09-26-2000, 06:10 PM
Indeed, how DID I forget Natalie Merchant in my anti-female-singer-songwhiner tirade? What an appalling oversight!! Not only is anya marie's criticism dead on the money, but also Ms. Merchant seems to have no dress sense at all. What ARE those clothes she wears? Ugh ugh ugh!!!

Another regretful omission in my original post on this subject were the Cowboy Junkies. Actually, the only thing of theirs I've ever heard is that execrable cover of Lou Reed's "Sweet Jane", but for that alone there is a special place in Hell reserved for them. "Sweet Jane" is, in its scrumptious original form, a gritty, working-class ballad. "Some people like to go out dancing/ People like us, man, we gotta work"...in le divine Lou's inimitable recitative style. So what the Hell are pink-chiffony vocals & a bunch of "la la la la la"s doing in the cover? They took a beautiful song, flipped it over, and ass-fucked it sans lube. I hope they all get their hearts ripped out with grapefruit spoons. RUSTY grapefruit spoons.

Junior Spaceman
09-26-2000, 06:30 PM
Originally posted by Stella*Fantasia
Another regretful omission in my original post on this subject were the Cowboy Junkies. Actually, the only thing of theirs I've ever heard is that execrable cover of Lou Reed's "Sweet Jane", but for that alone there is a special place in Hell reserved for them.

Oh boy, don't let ol' Lou hear you say that! My copy of the classic Trinity Sessions record has a quote from Mr Reed himself saying it contains 'the most authentic version of Sweet Jane I've ever heard'. The strange lyrics/arrangement are taken from the 1969 Velvet Underground Live record, not from Loaded, and is pretty much note for note/word for word, except for the (IMO) beautiful female vocals. They also do a great fast version of the song on a scarce live EP. There are some terrible covers of Sweet Jane, but this is definitely not one of them. Has anyone heard Billy Idol's cover of Heroin?

HenrySpencer

Stella*Fantasia
09-26-2000, 06:38 PM
I stand by my statements, though I'm now interested in hearing the version on the Velvet Underground Live album...would be intrigued to find out if it still sucks without those vomitrocious excessively breathy wussy-girl vocals.