100 K More Troops for Iraq?

[elucidator]

http://www.cbsnews.com/

CBS News has learned that the U.S. commander in Iraq is expected to recommend the size of Iraqi security forces be increased by up to 100,000, David Martin reports..

Somebody has simply got to be kidding. I don't know who yet, because I picked this link off a blog leading to CBS News above, but nobody, but nobody seems to be talking about this. So maybe I'm Pitting CBS news for a wildly inaccurate news release. Which would be a relief, frankly.

But if I'm not, I'm pitting the dumbest fucking idea yet. Why do we need to do this?

...This comes just as the U.S. military is about to reach its long-stated goal of training and equipping 325,000 Iraqis to take over the fighting from American troops.

Officials say the explosion of sectarian violence, which Gen. Casey calls a fundamental change in the nature of the threat, now makes that number look inadequate. On top of that is the fact that any given day, one quarter of the Iraqi Army is on leave....

WT bleeding F? One quarter of the Iraqi Army is on leave on "any given day"!

And who signed off on this? I cannot imagine that any Bushivik thought "You know, this close to the election, be a really good idea to float that "raise the troop level" thingy, bound to get just oodles of enthusiastic crunchy goodness!"

Anybody see something here that isn't batshit pizza? Anybody?

[Cisco]

Anybody see something here that isn't batshit pizza? Anybody?
Yeah, I do. I hate this war as much as anybody, but as long as we're there, I'm ok with committing more troops. The way I see it is: would you rather walk through a bad neighborhood with 5 of your best friends or 500 of your best friends?

Until we find a way out of this clusterfuck, I'd like our men to be as safe as possible.

[Marley23]

Until we find a way out of this clusterfuck, I'd like our men to be as safe as possible.
And the best way to keep our men safe is to put more of them in the war zone. Gotcha.

Now, where's that March hare and the guy with the hat? They said something about a tea party.

[Cisco]

Now, where's that March hare and the guy with the hat? They said something about a tea party.
Not taking advantage of strength in numbers was a fault we paid dearly for in Vietnam. You can hand-wave it all you want but it is legitimate military strategy.

[Marley23]

I know. At the same time, I feel compelled to point out that the safety measures would probably result in a lot of people getting killed.

[John Mace]

Just to be clear, it's the Iraqi army, not the US army. ISF = Iraqi Security Forces.

CBS News has learned exclusively that Gen. George Casey, the U.S. Commander in Iraq, is expected to recommend the size of Iraqi security forces be increased by up to 100,000.

Do you think they need fewer security folks?

[Marley23]

Do you think they need fewer security folks?
I wonder if elucidator did think they meant US troops, but it's still a rather drastic statement if the situation has deteriorated so much that the security was 100,000 too small.

[elucidator]

What a relief! Its not 100K American troops, which means we won't be pressing the Eagle Scouts into infantry. It just means that the 325,000 troops that were the big goal turns out to be about 100,000 short. What is that in Friedman Units?

But, yeah, I did misread that. Time to ramp up my Alzhiemer's prevention program another notch. Stern virtue demands rigorous mental hygiene.

[John Mace]

But, yeah, I did misread that. Time to ramp up my Alzhiemer's prevention program another notch. Stern virtue demands rigorous mental hygiene.
I recommend wine. I've got a nice crisp Chardonnay going right now. Saving the Port for later.

[Squink]

Cognitive Dissonance (the #1 threat to the Republic!) :D

[kaylasdad99]

Are you sure it's wise to drink chardonnay? You might catch teh liberal.

:D

[elucidator]

Turns out its not catastrophic news, merely dreadful. That's better. Turns out this doesn't mean more American troops, just the same ones. Longer. Goody. Swell.

[elucidator]

I recommend wine. I've got a nice crisp Chardonnay going right now. Saving the Port for later.
Goddess Willing, I die of old age having never described a wine as "crisp".

[John Mace]

Are you sure it's wise to drink chardonnay? You might catch teh liberal.

:D
Well, that's true of any wine. Tonight it's a Chard, tomorrow a Pinot, and Wed will probably see a nice Cab.

As for Iraq, I think the real problem is the police, not so much the army. If you're relying on the army to save your ass, you're screwed. I wish we could divide the country into 3 zones, but I think that would make matters worse. Besides, it's their counrty, not ours. "We" shoudln't be dividing anything up, other than our own Congressional districts, and look what we've done with those.

[John Mace]

Goddess Willing, I die of old age having never described a wine as "crisp".
If so, your life will be the poorer for it. Of course, you live in MN, not in CA. What would you do with a "crisp" wine there even if you had one? Swat a mosquito with it?

[elucidator]

If so, your life will be the poorer for it. Of course, you live in MN, not in CA...
Eat your heart out.

[EddyTeddyFreddy]

Eat your heart out.
A nice robust Chianti would go well with that.

[RedFury]

Here you go, 'luc. No doubt you'll get some solace from reading the following article:

In Baghdad, a Force Under the Militias' Sway
Infiltration of Iraqi Police Could Delay Handover of Control for Years, U.S. Trainers Suggest (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/10/30/AR2006103001323_pf.html)

BAGHDAD -- The signs of the militias are everywhere at the Sholeh police station.

Posters celebrating Moqtada al-Sadr, head of the Mahdi Army militia, dot the building's walls. The police chief sometimes remarks that Shiite militias should wipe out all Sunnis. Visitors to this violent neighborhood in the Iraqi capital whisper that nearly all the police officers have split loyalties.

And then one rainy night this month, the Sholeh police set up an ambush and killed Army Cpl. Kenny F. Stanton Jr., a 20-year-old budding journalist, his unit said. At the time, Stanton and other members of the unit had been trailing a group of Sholeh police escorting known Mahdi Army members.

"How can we expect ordinary Iraqis to trust the police when we don't even trust them not to kill our own men?" asked Capt. Alexander Shaw, head of the police transition team of the 372nd Military Police Battalion, a Washington-based unit charged with overseeing training of all Iraqi police in western Baghdad. "To be perfectly honest, I'm not sure we're ever going to have police here that are free of the militia influence."

<snip>

The difficulty of eliminating corruption and militias from the Iraqi police forces can be exasperating for the American soldiers who risk their lives day after day to train them. "We can keep getting in our Humvees every day, but nothing is going to work unless the politicians do their job and move against the militias," Moore said.

Sitting in the battalion's war room with four other members of his team, Moore estimated it would take 30 to 40 years before the Iraqi police could function properly, perhaps longer if the militia infiltration and corruption continue to increase. His colleagues nodded.

"It's very, very slow-moving," Estes said.

"No," said Sgt. 1st Class William T. King Jr., another member of the team. "It's moving in reverse."

Wanna "win"? What's another thirty or fourty years of carnage?

[Tapioca Dextrin]

WT bleeding F? One quarter of the Iraqi Army is on leave on "any given day"!



Yep. The banking system is Iraq is virtually non existent, so soldiers are given a week off every month (http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/10/25/america/web.1025assess.php) to take their dinars home in a paper bag.

[Cervaise]

Goddess Willing, I die of old age having never described a wine as "crisp".Especially not a Chardonnay. Of all the white wines to describe as "crisp," perhaps only a porto bianco would be less appropriate. ;)

[RTFirefly]

Iraq is fucked. Ain't no other term for it.

Iraq's been going down the tubes with our 140K troops in country. There was a time when doubling that number might've done some good; now I doubt that tripling would suffice.

Things are splintering too many ways for a political solution to be possible.

There is no Saddam-style strongman available to impose order by fear. Even Muqtada isn't up to that job.

The duly constituted government doesn't control much of what happens outside the Green Zone.

If the Bushies had any shame, they'd have resigned a long time ago. I hope for the day when they are bound over to The Hague.

And I pray that we, the people, never let a leader take us into war again with so few questions asked and answers demanded.

[Voyager]

Now don't lose hope, people - we've finally done something right. It's true that we sent lots of weapons over there without recording their serial numbers, so it's guaranteed that they'll get stolen, but we were smart enough not to send spare parts or manuals, so they'll only be good for a while.
:rolleyes:

(In MN, is a wine crisp when it freezes?)

[Airman Doors, USAF]

I have asked General Westmoreland what he needs to meet this mounting aggression. He has told me. And we will meet his needs… We will stand in Vietnam.

I wasn't alive to hear that said in person, but isn't it amazing how eerily apropos that statement is with just a few simple substitutions?

[Cisco]

I wasn't alive to hear that said in person, but isn't it amazing how eerily apropos that statement is with just a few simple substitutions?
I'm not familiar with that particular quote off the top of my head, but it sounds like it was probably spoken after the (arguably cooked) Gulf of Tonkin incident, at which point we were not fully comment to Viet Nam yet. We have, unfortunately, been commited to Iraq for quite some time now.

[Boo Boo Foo]

Yep... no denying it... the pooch has been screwed big time... but as even the venerable Lewis Tanner has noted, "The way I see it? We dug it, we fill it..."

My advice to the US Armed Forces and the British Armed Forces in the country is this... create 4 huge bases miles from nowhere in the Iraqi countryside. 3 for the Americans, 1 for the British. Totally withdraw from street duty and simply bunker down in the bases. Anyone comes within 5 miles without an invitation... they get zapped.

Then, just negotiate. By withdrawing from a visible presence to a non visible presence, the insurgents and militias will have no one to blame but themselves if it all goes south. But, at the same time, the US and British forces won't have to entirely pull out their extraordinary hardware assets and inventory etc.

With hindsight, I think that's what should have been done in the first place - other than not going in at all, that is. It would have left an awful lot of infrastructure in place. Lots less lives lost too.

[ElvisL1ves]

I'm not familiar with that particular quote off the top of my head, but it sounds like it was probably spoken after the (arguably cooked) Gulf of Tonkin incidentJuly 28, 1965 (journals.cambridge.org/article_S0260210503004996), almost a year later.

[Cisco]

July 28, 1965 (journals.cambridge.org/article_S0260210503004996), almost a year later.
What is your link? It doesn't reference the quote posted by Airman Doors.

To clarify my position: I DON'T think we should stand in Iraq. I don't think we should ever have been there, and I don't think we should be there now. However, since no one who matters is saying we'll leave anytime soon, I don't really have a problem with sending more troops.

The other side increasing their numbers would have the expected result of more deaths for us, but increasing our numbers will not have any negative effect on our total casualties suffered - it will likely lower them. The exception to this would be a large scale war with frequent battles resulting in 100% casualties on one side - but if that's the case, fuck it, send grandma over there too.

[Damuri Ajashi]

Well, that's true of any wine. Tonight it's a Chard, tomorrow a Pinot, and Wed will probably see a nice Cab.

As for Iraq, I think the real problem is the police, not so much the army. If you're relying on the army to save your ass, you're screwed. I wish we could divide the country into 3 zones, but I think that would make matters worse. Besides, it's their counrty, not ours. "We" shoudln't be dividing anything up, other than our own Congressional districts, and look what we've done with those.
I remember the UN dividing a country up once before and it didn't work out too well. Of course this may be more like dividing up Korea than dividing up Palestine. Then again the dividing up Korea things may not have worked out optimally either.

[ElvisL1ves]

It was in the Google cache summary. But there's plenty of other cites in response to "We will stand in Vietnam", though, all referring to an LBJ press conference on that date in which he announced the doubling of the draft to 35,000 men per month (!). We were heavily committed, and the situation was turning completely to shit, already, of course. But more troops would fix it.

[.Tyr.]

To clarify my position: I DON'T think we should stand in Iraq. I don't think we should ever have been there, and I don't think we should be there now. However, since no one who matters is saying we'll leave anytime soon, I don't really have a problem with sending more troops.



The problem with that position is that we don't have any fresh troops to commit. At this point the only way to commit more troops is to shorten the length of time that our troops spend home and lengthening the time they spend in Iraq.

My unit just got back from a 12 month deployment and we are already scheduled to go back in August. I have also heard rumors that the Army is going to started upping active duty deployments to 18 months, and many National Guard and reserve units are already serving 18 month deployments.

So while committing more troops would be nice we really don't have more troops to commit.

[Sevastopol]

I remember the UN dividing a country up once before and it didn't work out too well. Of course this may be more like dividing up Korea than dividing up Palestine. Then again the dividing up Korea things may not have worked out optimally either. I thought it was about Germany, which turned out ok.