Euthanasiast, you musically uneducated little shit

[Soapbox Monkey]

In this thread http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=394799 the debate of John Mayer's lack of songwriting ability came up, and Euthanasiast, who is apparently incapable of understanding even the most basic of logic, asked me to compare John Mayer to other, equally inept songwriters within the Top 100 of the billboard charts.

As I told him, this is like comparing shit to shit. If you're trying to make a point that John is in fact a good songwriter, WHY are you challenging me to only compare him to his "peers" on the charts? Do you have any idea how a cogent argument works you twit?

Then you go on to say that John Mayer has songs that don't get on the radio, that are separate from the pop songs he writes along with his "peers." How corporate money and marketing power automatically makes someone your musical peer is beyond me, but it was his argument. But what I wonder is, if you're going to stand up for John, why not bring up his non-pop songs in the beginning? Why did you feel the need to set some kind of trap by asking me to compare him with other people on the pop charts?

But you know what, I tried anyway. And then HAHA! His trap was sprung! I dared to claim that Justin Timberlake is better than John Mayer! I'm such a moron! Comparing a top 10 artist to John Mayer!

You asked, I obliged, you smug douche. And for the record, yes, JT's new material is MILES above John Mayer's little pussy boy MOR bullshit for school girls.

Am I a fan of JT? No. Never gonna pick up that album. Don't even leave the station on when his song pops up. But he's doing more original shit. At least he's trying. Meanwhile John is running through the halls of his high school and screaming at the top of his pussy boy lungs. Or is that Jack Johnson? I can never tell those two unoriginal fucks apart.

OH HO! But then you ask me to tell you what lyrics JT has penned that are better than John Mayer's! Since when do lyrics make a song? Further proof of your apparent lack of musical education or experience.

Then you criticize my picking of Timbaland because "OMG all those rappers he works with are crap! They suck so bad that their producer has to step in and sample!"

First of all get your fucking facts straight. Timbaland rarely samples, and when he does it's not the way someone with your lack of education or listening ability would think, the way Diddy takes an old song and just rehashes the whole thing. Producers like Timbaland meticulously search through dozens of songs and construct wholly new pieces out of parts from other songs. And even when they use recognizable samples, at least they are used in a new, original sounding context, unlike your precious blues where the same old scales and licks are used over and over again by different artists. How is that any different from the sampling you despise?

And guess what, that's only on the rare occasions when he DOES sample. Usually it's synth and drum machines, and the compositions are entirely original.

Before you even respond to this, you might want to take a class on critical reasoning so that next time you don't make such irrelevant arguments. Because you may not be seeing it yourself, but reading your posts makes me feel absolutely embarrassed for your lack of reasoning and I have a feeling a lot of others would feel the same way.

Have a nice day.

[kaylasdad99]

<Takes out 20sd. Rolls for saving throw against getting WAAAAYYYY too passionate about John Mayer v. Justin Timberlandlake debate. Checks character sheet; notes 43 months EP. Rechecks calculations>

Bad news, dude.

[Miller]

All the bands you both like suck.

[Soapbox Monkey]

Haha, I admit, I do get way too heated about arguments. But that's only because I cannot stand stupid people. They make my hair grey...and I'm only 22. No, seriously, I'll mail you one of the hairs, I've got about 5 so far.

Usually I can tolerate stupid people and laugh it off. But when one of them decides to target ME with their stupidity, oh no, I just can't stand for that. My chest gets tight and my blood pressure sky rockets and this is the only thing I can do to alleviate that. And after all, this is the SDMB, and is it not our task to battle ignorance?

[Soapbox Monkey]

All the bands you both like suck.

Ur momz face sucks! :p

[pulykamell]

22-year-olds are so cute when they get uppity about music! :)

I used to be like that, too. But I think you're right about Mayer's songwriting: he's still got a ways to go. However, he no doubt has great musical talent with the guitar...it's too bad that he's stuck doing all that adult contemporary crap. But you know what? He's gotta pay his bills, and if he wants to put his more experimental stuff in side projects, so fucking what? I respect anyone who can make a living making or performing music, whether it's Timbaland, John Meyer, or Jessica Simpson. Sounds to me like not only is he a good musician, but he's a good business man as well, and knows what sells.

[Smeghead]

Ah. Yet another heated debate about which I can enthusiastically not care.

[lissener]

I'd do both of them, but I'd do JT first.

[Ensign Edison]

I'd do both of them, but I'd do JT first.

I'll hold him down, unless you think that's pathological.

[Guinastasia]

Who the fuck IS this John Mayer, anyways?

[Kythereia]

Who the fuck IS this John Mayer, anyways?

Here you go (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Mayer).

I think we can all agree categorically here that James Blunt is the worst.

[Argent Towers]

I've heard so much about Mayer's supposed guitar skills, but I saw some live show where he was demonstrating his non-pop repertoire, and frankly I was not impressed. His played-out blues riffs, however proficient, inspire little in me (I feel the same way about Eric Clapton.) There's just not much in them that sounds new or innovative to me.

I'm much more impressed by Walter Becker of Steely Dan. Show me a kid who can play like that, and I don't care if he put out the sappiest, most emo shit - I'll still respect him.

[Euthanasiast]

First of all, you socially inept (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=291909), snaggletoothed (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=259129), quick-dick (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=248973), fuck stain, as someone who has been playing guitar and studying music while you were still shitting your diapers (and stupefying yourself on mother's milk made up of liberal amounts of resentment for your birth, mail-man spunk, and Nuprin) oblivious to your future worries of shortcomings with girls and your inability to fully slide up in a female without prema-jaculate squirting down her leg like a shaking puppy, I have forgotten more about music then you will ever know.

I debated long and hard about whether to respond to this text-based abortion you had the unmitigated gall to call a pit thread, but then I see that most of your posts have been pretty fucking vapid and heart-breakingly sad and I guess this is business as usual. It's just another deep scratch for your twin-sized headboard (located, no doubt, in mom's basement) to mark off another failure in your life. You don't have the juice needed to properly pit the likes of me, you human catastrophuck, because you likely bitterly masturbated it all over your crusty, Pittsburgh Steelers bed sheets. If this is your fucking 'A' game, bitch, you picked the wrong mother fucking opponent.

You stepped on a fecal IED when you Kramered into a thread and made a comment about something you know fuck all about. It's my responsibility to tell you the man might have great music tucked outside of the range of the Billboard 100 before you make an uneducated statement about someone's music you admit to not listening too? You haven't listened enough to a musician's work in order to adequately comment on his abilities as a songwriter, yet it doesn't stop you from shitting all over the man by saying the Michael Jackson wannabe--Justin Timberfake--and his songwriting and sampling team have more talent than Mayer. Your jagged logic constipates me so badly that I feel like I'm trying to shit one of Gene Simmons's boots over here. You have yet to cite any fresh and original lyrics from a single Timberfake song that so put Mayer miles below, so I have no choice but to assume your grasp on either of them is much like your grasp on the female anatomy, vague and vaporous and about as often as Halley's comet entering our fucking solar system.

You are a fucking idiot. First you say that knowing how to create great music on the guitar or play one adequately doesn't make good songwriting. Then you say that the lyrics don't either. That leaves the drummer and the bass player, you sawed-off puppy fucker. Which is it to be? I understand what it takes to make great music. I understand that the whole is greater than the sum of its equal parts. Do you think Timberfake understands this? Or have his producers informed him yet?

JT's new material is MILES above John Mayer's little pussy boy MOR bullshit for school girls. What would you know about school girls (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=194592), except that your mother told you they all had some cock removing disease, all the while attempting to hide her discomfort from the fact that she had the other half of a pack of Rollo's in her ass (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=306209&highlight=suck+drunken+bitch).

Then you criticize my picking of Timbaland because "OMG all those rappers he works with are crap! They suck so bad that their producer has to step in and sample!"

First of all get your fucking facts straight. Timbaland rarely samples, and when he does it's not the way someone with your lack of education or listening ability would think, the way Diddy takes an old song and just rehashes the whole thing. Producers like Timbaland meticulously search through dozens of songs and construct wholly new pieces out of parts from other songs. And even when they use recognizable samples, at least they are used in a new, original sounding context, unlike your precious blues where the same old scales and licks are used over and over again by different artists. How is that any different from the sampling you despise?

Well, since every fucking bit of rock and roll, hip-hop and rap came directly from the blues, that makes you look like even more of an asshole. Besides, you were the one that brought it up, fuck stick. I just commented on it.

What pisses me off the most is that the first time I find myself in a pit thread about me, it had to be written by Rain Man on three bottles of fucking Nyquil.

[Coin]

I give both of you a thumbs-up for creative swearing, wit, and LIVING THE ANGER, man. You both lose a few points because

All the bands you both like suck.

Miller speaks the truth.

[fisha]

Fantastic, Euthanasiast.

[Subway Prophet]

I'll mail you one of the hairs, I've got about 5 so far.

With so few hairs, I recommend that you insure the package.

[nameless]

How would you like it if Hitler started a band... and then killed you?

[rayh]

G G E A G E G G E A G E

[Daithi Lacha]

Here you go (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Mayer).

I think we can all agree categorically here that James Blunt is the worst.
He's pitiful. :D

[Lightray]

A very dull rant, until Euthanasiast spanked the Monkey.

Still dull, but with better opportunities to make jokes at their expense.

[Smeghead]

Excellent comeback. I would have enjoyed it more if the whole debate didn't continually remind me of this (http://www.theonion.com/content/node/25842).

[Oregon sunshine]

Doesn't anybody listen to JAZZ anymore?? :confused:

[Wolfian]

Doesn't anybody listen to JAZZ anymore?? :confused:
Well the kids listen to the "rap" music and then they get the brain damage. With their hippin' and their hoppin' and their bippin' and their boppin' they don't know what the Jazz is all about.


Pokémon, anyone?

[Dung Beetle]

Note to self: Don't cross Euthanasiast. Ever.

[Roonwit]

A very dull rant, until Euthanasiast spanked the Monkey.

Is there a Pun of the Month award? There really should be.

[Anaamika]

I don't know what all the fuss is about and I feel ambivalent about both posters, which is to say I like their posts somewhat, but I gotta admit Euthanasiast's response was jaw-droppingly amazing.

[Leviosaurus]

G G E A G E G G E A G EROTFLMAO!


C C C F F G G G F F

[Really Not All That Bright]

So much quality anger wasted on such a stupefyingly inane topic.

<sigh>

I would like to enthusiastically sign up for the "Justin Timberlake and John Mayer both suck" club, while noting that John Mayer does, at least, play his own instrument, which automatically makes him half as sucky.

[MovieMogul]

Note to self: Don't cross Euthanasiast. Ever.Ditto. :eek:

[Giraffe]

Note to self: Don't cross Euthanasiast. Ever.I'll say. That was like watching Bobby Brady pick a fight with Mike Tyson.

[Hippy Hollow]

Euthanasiast - 9 out of 10. Devastating.

Not sure why the poster felt the need for a pitting over differences in musical tastes... but FTR, I think though both Timberlake and Mayer have a smidgen of talent, I'd rather listen to... just about anything else.

[lissener]

I'd do Euthansiast.

[Contrapuntal]

I'll say. That was like watching Bobby Brady pick a fight with Mike Tyson.The young Mike Tyson. Before his conversion to cannibalism.

[Misnomer]

Since when do lyrics make a song?Are you fucking serious?

Try remedying your own "apparent lack of musical education or experience" before you go spouting off crap like this around people who actually do know better.

[Soapbox Monkey]

Can't reply in full just yet but just in passing I need to re-emphasize for the people who don't seem to fully understand the debate: this is not a debate on Justin Timberlake vs. John Mayer.

This was me arguing that talent and virtuosity with an instrument does not a good songwriter make, and for some reason, Euthansiast just doesn't seem to be able to grasp that fact. He apparently thinks that I mean the lyrics, again not realizing that a good song is more than just a talented guitarist, poetic lyrics, and some drum and bass. And as someone who's been studying and playing music for as long as he claims, the fact that he can't seem to understand my point is incredibly frustrating.

Anyway, be back in about 2 hours.

[Jaade]

I'd do Euthansiast.


Sorry darling, he's spoken for. ;)

[Soapbox Monkey]

Are you fucking serious?

Try remedying your own "apparent lack of musical education or experience" before you go spouting off crap like this around people who actually do know better.

Could you kindly expand upon your argument?

[lissener]

Can't reply in full just yet but just in passing I need to re-emphasize for the people who don't seem to fully understand the debate: this is not a debate on Justin Timberlake vs. John Mayer.

This was me arguing that talent and virtuosity with an instrument does not a good songwriter make, and for some reason, Euthansiast just doesn't seem to be able to grasp that fact. He apparently thinks that I mean the lyrics, again not realizing that a good song is more than just a talented guitarist, poetic lyrics, and some drum and bass. And as someone who's been studying and playing music for as long as he claims, the fact that he can't seem to understand my point is incredibly frustrating.
Or, perhaps, the fact that you are too boringly cliche an example of the "ignorance=arrogance" phenomenon prevents you from understanding that your point is easily understood and even more easily dismissed.

When someone who's smarter than you disagrees with your "point," it's not usually because they don't understand you.

[jjimm]

Soapbox Monkey, if I were you on this occasion I'd just retire with my tail between my legs.

[Hey, It's That Guy!]

I would like to enthusiastically sign up for the "Justin Timberlake and John Mayer both suck" club, while noting that John Mayer does, at least, play his own instrument, which automatically makes him half as sucky.
Well I hear Cameron Diaz plays Justin Timberlake's instrument, which makes him pretty cool.

[Lightray]

Well I hear Cameron Diaz plays Justin Timberlake's instrument, which makes him pretty cool.
I hear Cameron Diaz play's everyone's instrument, which makes him a canidate for the free clinic, at least.

[Contrapuntal]

Soapbox Monkey, if I were you on this occasion I'd just retire with my tail between my legs.Excellent advice. Just walk away man. Something tells me that a monsoon of a shitstorm is poised to dump on you if you don't.

He who fights and runs away, lives to fight another day.

[RedFury]

Fuckin' A, Euthansiast. Talk about a one punch, flat on your back KO!

As for the Timberlake vs Mayers "debate" must admit I don't know shit about either one and I aim to keep it that way.

Then again, that was some impressive reply...

[AndyPolley]

There are some smokin' tracks on the live John Meyer Trio disc, but Justin is clearly a better singer. Hunt down some of the harmony singing he used to pull out with N'sync. I'm not kidding.

Euthanasiast, I thought linking to your (brilliant) "Suck it down" pit was a touch self-congraulatory for my taste, but otherwise....damn.

[RaftPeople]

Originally Posted by rayh
G G E A G E G G E A G E

ROTFLMAO!


C C C F F G G G F F


A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A (Electric Avenue)

[jjimm]

Well I hear Cameron Diaz plays Justin Timberlake's instrument, which makes him pretty cool.I've heard that she blows his pink oboe.

[whole bean]

Problem is, all of Euthanasiast's studying aside, he's chosen to vouch for a shitty songwriter. So you like Mayer, fine, we all have a guilty pleasure. And he can play the guitar, true. I saw him on I believe it was a Townes Van Zandt special and he was a quite good guitar player . I've heard his songs, as he's particularly popular with twenty something girls in Atlanta (a demographic my wife and her friends falls squarely within) such that every dinner party is set to the same soundtrack that really moves the cinnamon scented candles at Potter Barn and surges the sale of moca-crapa-chinos at Starbucks -- I swear, were he to breed with Snora Jones, we could eradicate insomnia. Bottom line, his music is uninspiring. Jack White, now there's a freaking genius. Or, how about the uber-prolific Ryan Adams? Whoever does the Scissor Sisters song writing can really produce some good pop music. But not Mayer. Nice ad hominem attack though.

[Jammer]

Personally, I would have gone with "text-based, third-term abortion." Outside that, HOLY FUCK, what a beatdown.

Jammer

[Caffeine.addict]

Is anyone else amused or amazed to see this much passion in a discussion about John Mayer? To me his music is inoffensive pop. It fails to rouse in me so much as even dislike as that would at least be a reaction and not mere difference.

I can't read this discussion without thinking of this (http://www.somethingawful.com/index.php?a=1854) article from Something Awful on Jack Johnson and John Mayer.

[Lord Ashtar]

Well the kids listen to the "rap" music and then they get the brain damage. With their hippin' and their hoppin' and their bippin' and their boppin' they don't know what the Jazz is all about.


Pokémon, anyone?
Oh, Pokémon! With the Poké and the mon and the stuff and the thing and the ha ah ah ah ah!

[Uncommon Sense]

Do not EVER get into a pitting contest with Euthanasiast. Just don't.
Heh,
A debate over John Timbermeyer verses Justin Lake....Whooda thunk?

[Soapbox Monkey]

Not a debate of Justin Timberlake vs. John Mayers. JT was the first random artist I picked when Euthanasiast "challenged" me to find someone who makes better music than John Mayer who's in the Top 100.

[Contrapuntal]

Not a debate of Justin Timberlake vs. John Mayers. JT was the first random artist I picked when Euthanasiast "challenged" me to find someone who makes better music than John Mayer who's in the Top 100.So you came back in two hours. And this is all you brought with you? It's a bit light.

[pulykamell]

Are you fucking serious?

Try remedying your own "apparent lack of musical education or experience" before you go spouting off crap like this around people who actually do know better.

Well, I do know better, and there's definitely different kinds of musical listeners in the world. Some are lyrics-centered, some are music-centered, some are a combination of the two. For me, I'm one of the people who prefers a good tune with passable lyrics to a passable tune with good lyrics. (With the exception of songs forms like blues and folk and country where lyrics are more central to the songwriting.) I'm driven by the music in the song, and not the lyrics themselves. For me, a great song transcends language and lyrics are secondary to truly good songwriting. And technical virtuosity is definitely not important in good songwriting.

But I'm speaking in terms of pop and rock songwriting. Like I said, different styles, different values. The fact that John Mayer is good with a guitar does not automatically make him a good songwriter. He's got some decent tunes and I think his newest album is actually pretty damned good. However, I can see how somebody like Soapbox Monkey would value Justin Timberlake's music as being a better example of good songwriting. I would actually agree that mainstream Justin Timberlake has better songs than mainstream John Mayer, even though I think the entire argument is a bit silly.

[Hamadryad]

Haha, I admit, I do get way too heated about arguments. But that's only because I cannot stand stupid people. They make my hair grey...and I'm only 22. No, seriously, I'll mail you one of the hairs, I've got about 5 so far.You must be full of self-loathing, then, because only a congenital idiot would dismiss the blues out-of-hand.

[Soapbox Monkey]

Overall I feel like I got off pretty easy seeing as how in that entire reply you only mustered 4 sentences that actually addressed the actual debate we had going. Though I will commend you for your excellent use of defamatory adjectives.

Secondly, the most important thing in this thread that many of you seem to be missing is that I was playing devil's advocate with my support of Justin Timberlake (whom I picked at random).

In the John Mayer thread I made the true claim (albeit cliched), that songwriting abilities are for the most part determined by the imagination of the musician, and has much less to do with their actual technical proficiency (so long as they are at least capable of playing the songs they are writing). I placed John Mayer in this camp.

Euthanasiast called me on it, and not particularly in the mood for a lengthy debate for what was meant to be a mildly arrogant cheapshot, I obliged.

He then "challenged" me to name artists on the Top 100 who are better songwriters than John Mayer, which is a trap to begin with, by expecting me to wade through a lot of shit to try and find something that was superior to someone else I think is crap. But I decided to humor Euthanasiast and give the ol' Billboard a look see, and I picked two individuals, one represented by name on the charts, and one who acts as a producer to many of today's pop and hip hop acts (Justin Timberlake and Timbaland respectively).

Falling into Euthanasiast oh so clever trap, he proceeded to berate me for having the gall to suggest that JT is a better songwriter than John Mayer! He then asked me to provide some JT lyrics that show his musical superiority over Mayer. But I don't recall the relevance of lyrics ever being brought up (nor did it need to be, as a good song is more than virtuoso guitar or poetic verse).

Did I know of Mayer's supposedly superior side projects (the stuff he apparently isn't fighting to have heard by a wider audience)? No, but I've heard his mainstream fluff, and it was enough to write him off as a talented musician who simply lacked the ability to properly congeal those talents into a great song. But I can hardly be faulted for not knowing offhand about John Mayer's side projects. If you had heard that Fred Durst had some side project that was actually good, would you really waste your time and effort seeking out the music of someone who has already presented themselves to be lacking in originality or spark?

John Mayer, through the music that he has no problem displaying for all to see, has shown himself to be completely lacking in edge, energy, or ingenuity. His music all comes out like glossed over snooze-rock along with James Blunt and Jack Johnson. I'm sure it's great to have on to woo a woman into bed (Not (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=171697) that (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=190809) I'd (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=194592) know (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=209653) anything (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=215041) about (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=219150) that (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=248973) of course).

[Soapbox Monkey]

You must be full of self-loathing, then, because only a congenital idiot would dismiss the blues out-of-hand.

Please cite where I dismissed blues as a genre.

I did facetiously said "those same old scales and licks that are used over and over again" as a point against Euthanasiast's criticism of sampling. But I clearly didn't dismiss the genre nor did I attack any particular blues artist, save John Mayer.

[Soapbox Monkey]

However, I can see how somebody like Soapbox Monkey would value Justin Timberlake's music as being a better example of good songwriting. I would actually agree that mainstream Justin Timberlake has better songs than mainstream John Mayer, even though I think the entire argument is a bit silly.

I'm glad you see what I was going for, but if you'll refer to my big post above I explained how JT was my first random choice from the options presented to me (by generous Euthanasiast). I don't value Justin Timberlake's music. But given the choice between JT and JM, I'm gonna choose the one who is at least trying to do something that sounds different compared to JM's ho-hum lullabies.

[Talon Karrde]

I would like to enthusiastically sign up for the "Justin Timberlake and John Mayer both suck" club, while noting that John Mayer does, at least, play his own instrument, which automatically makes him half as sucky.
John Lydon, Michael Stipe, Morrissey, Shane MacGowan, and Chuck D are all tons awesomer than John Mayer, and none of them play instruments.

[elfkin477]

I read most of the orginal thread, and Euthanasiast lost all musical credibility with me the second he suggested that Mayer's peers were (just) those also within the top 100 on billboard. I mean holy fuck, his peers are just the people who sell to the masses? Instead of his peers being all his contemporaries.... For someone who claims to be all about music, this is a stunningly supid tactic to take in order to try to win an argument.

By that yardstick Jewel must be a much better poet than John Berryman because she has a collection that ranks 193,231st best seller at Amazon vs his at an inferior 314,522nd. I mean fuck, I'm a better poet than Jewel.

[Contrapuntal]

John Lydon, Michael Stipe, Morrissey, Shane MacGowan, and Chuck D are all tons awesomer than John Mayer, and none of them play instruments.Are you sure of that? None of them play instruments? At all?

Maybe not in public, or on albums, but I'll bet a few in that list are able to play guitar or piano.

[Billdo]

Soapbox, let me repeat to you the first rule of holes (which should be emblazoned on the front page of the Pit): When you're already in a hole, stop digging.

I must admit that Euthanasiast was not quite fair in his ad hominem attacks on your personal sexuality, but you were the one that started it in the Pit, opening yourself up. Also, he may have evicerated only a portion of your argument, not demolished it in its grand fullness.

Still, dude, you got your ass handed to you there, both in the invective and the substance of the debate. There are some people that can come back from "you sawed-off puppy fucker", but unless you have you really have the chops, it's better not to even try for fear of looking more foolish.

You gave it your best try in the comeback, and I admire your gumption (if not your judgment). Once you get what you are coming to you, I would suggest you consider taking what is left of your dignity and retreating from the arena with some small shred of it intact.

Good luck.

[Talon Karrde]

Are you sure of that? None of them play instruments? At all?

Maybe not in public, or on albums, but I'll bet a few in that list are able to play guitar or piano.
Well, Morrissey might have tried being a drummer at one point. I'm not sure about John Lydon, but I'd be surprised if he played any instruments and even more surprised if he was able to play any during the Sex Pistols days. I'd be even more surprised if Shane MacGowan played any instruments. As for Michael Stipe, he doesn't play guitar unless he learned recently, and I don't think he really played the piano. I suppose Chuck D might play keyboards now or something since he's done some work as a producer.
As for Justin Timberlake, it's possible that he knows how to play the guitar or piano himself.

[Soapbox Monkey]

Soapbox, let me repeat to you the first rule of holes (which should be emblazoned on the front page of the Pit): When you're already in a hole, stop digging.

I must admit that Euthanasiast was not quite fair in his ad hominem attacks on your personal sexuality, but you were the one that started it in the Pit, opening yourself up. Also, he may have evicerated only a portion of your argument, not demolished it in its grand fullness.

Still, dude, you got your ass handed to you there, both in the invective and the substance of the debate. There are some people that can come back from "you sawed-off puppy fucker", but unless you have you really have the chops, it's better not to even try for fear of looking more foolish.

You gave it your best try in the comeback, and I admire your gumption (if not your judgment). Once you get what you are coming to you, I would suggest you consider taking what is left of your dignity and retreating from the arena with some small shred of it intact.

Good luck.

He sure did hand me my ass with the insults. But not really as far as the debate goes. And so far people in here who actually commented on the debate seem to be down the middle, and the people on his side haven't offered any actual evidence or arguments towards my "musical ignorance and arrogance" aside from slinging more insults. Meanwhile other people have come on here agreeing with me and actually applying reasoning to their arguments.

"Once I get what's coming to me?" It's called apathy. You'd be amazed how easy it is to recover from something on an anonymous message board. And besides, look at when I registered, and how many posts I have. I'm far from a "regular cast member" round these parts, so it's not like I even have a reputation to damage. C'est la vie.

[Gukumatz]

Dang. That was a Mortal Kombat style beat-down, Euthanasiast.

FATALITY!

[whole bean]

As for Justin Timberlake, it's possible that he knows how to play the guitar or piano himself.
I am ashamed to know the answer to this and even more ashamed of the reason why, but I recall seeing him on a Barbara Walters/Diane Sawyer type special where he played the piano and it didn't sound terrible --- there I said it. Can I go wash my mouth out now?

[Contrapuntal]

Well, Morrissey might have tried being a drummer at one point. I'm not sure about John Lydon, but I'd be surprised if he played any instruments and even more surprised if he was able to play any during the Sex Pistols days. I'd be even more surprised if Shane MacGowan played any instruments. As for Michael Stipe, he doesn't play guitar unless he learned recently, and I don't think he really played the piano. I suppose Chuck D might play keyboards now or something since he's done some work as a producer.
As for Justin Timberlake, it's possible that he knows how to play the guitar or piano himself.So some of them do play instruments, as far as you know.

[jjimm]

He sure did hand me my ass with the insults. But not really as far as the debate goes. Dude, you're talking about "the debate". The debate has gone down the toilet. Personally speaking, I haven't even read it. I don't give a shit. What happened was you took the debate into the realms of personal insult, and lost.

It's like you're in the court of Louis XVI and someone criticized a composer you decided to defend, so you slapped them with your glove. It now no longer matters whether Chambonnieres is better than Couperin, because you challenged the insulter to a duel. You offered them out, and we're enjoying the conflict; the original insult is now irrelevant.

Unfortunately, you happened to be bested.

[whole bean]

Dang. That was a Mortal Kombat style beat-down, Euthanasiast.

FATALITY!
Eh. It was an insult laden personal attack that utterly failed to address the main argument at hand - does technical proficiency at performance directly relate to songwriting ability -- or side arguments - is John Mayer a good songwriter? compared to whom? and, what is a good song (lyrics, melody, badass guitar riffs ::does metal hands::? Other than that, it was awesome.

[Soapbox Monkey]

Dude, you're talking about "the debate". The debate has gone down the toilet. Personally speaking, I haven't even read it. I don't give a shit. What happened was you took the debate into the realms of personal insult, and lost.

It's like you're in the court of Louis XVI and someone criticized a composer you decided to defend, so you slapped them with your glove. It now no longer matters whether Chambonnieres is better than Couperin, because you challenged the insulter to a duel. You offered them out, and we're enjoying the conflict; the original insult is now irrelevant.

Unfortunately, you happened to be bested.

Then congratulations to him. I still maintain that he was an uninformed douche in his attempt to argue his point, and calling him that in Cafe Society would have got me banned.

[Euthanasiast]

I read most of the orginal thread, and Euthanasiast lost all musical credibility with me the second he suggested that Mayer's peers were (just) those also within the top 100 on billboard.

I noticed you put the word just in parenthesis, thereby adding it to my suggestion, which confuses me since I never said that his peers are only made up of the top 100 on Billboard. I did narrow the field by asking my opponent to focus there in my posts in CS, but that was only because I wanted to avoid absurd comparisons to John Mayer's songwriting and that of The Beatles or Jimi Hendrix from the Straight Dope Collective.

Again, confusing, but I noticed by your indicated location that confusion is all around you.

Soapbox Monkey, I get it; good songwriting is about more than talent. I got it when you originally posted it way back in the CS thread. I understand . Just don't delude yourself into thinking that it's magical either. Great songwriting is contained within the instruments (melody) and the artist's ability to make something from the instrument (talent). It is also contained within the lyrics, which set the mood. It's nothing more than that. In order to accomplish it, you should be proficient with your instrument, understand the fundamentals of the succession of single tones in musical compositions and how they interact with one another, and you should be able to paint the mood of the song with lyrics that fit the feel and rhythm of the music (if you are using lyrics).

Further, I never suggested that Mayer was a phenomenal songwriter. I happen to like a fair amount of his work, most of it outside the confines of what the radio stations play, and admittedly, because I have a weakness for his technical mastery of the guitar and what he gets from it. I do know that he writes his own music, and that automatically places him above the Timberlakes out there, who rely heavily on other people to write and express musical ideas that they otherwise would not have come up with on their own.

Songwriters and their music have suffered greatly under the current crop of the producers you seem so hell-bent on raining such adulation. They are responsible for taking the music and over processing it with remixing, compression, incorrect gating, more compression, brick wall limiting, and finally sending it out to the radio stations for even more compression and limiting. The life the music might have had originally is squeezed out just so the music can be louder. I haven't seen a song released by the major record labels in the past ten years that didn't clip heavily on proper studio equipment.

I only defended John Mayer in the CS thread (which turned into this clusterfuck) because you insisted on pissing all over the man like a drunken yard cat, having not heard much of anything that he has released other than what gets airplay. I never suggested that he was a better songwriter then the likes of Jack White, but I do know for certain that he's technically a better guitar player, despite my own adulation for Jack's live performances.

And as others have noted, you opened yourself up for the rest by dragging me into the pit with a discussion that hardly warranted pitting.

[Soapbox Monkey]

Soapbox Monkey, I get it; good songwriting is about more than talent. I got it when you originally posted it way back in the CS thread. I understand . Just don't delude yourself into thinking that it's magical either. Great songwriting is contained within the instruments (melody) and the artist's ability to make something from the instrument (talent). It is also contained within the lyrics, which set the mood. It's nothing more than that. In order to accomplish it, you should be proficient with your instrument, understand the fundamentals of the succession of single tones in musical compositions and how they interact with one another, and you should be able to paint the mood of the song with lyrics that fit the feel and rhythm of the music (if you are using lyrics).

This is EXACTLY what I've been trying to say, but I assumed it was implied by what I was typing in CS.

Obviously you need to be able to make something good come OUT of your instrument, but let's take a band like Dream Theater for example. The guys are all virtuosos and they're blazing away in every direction on their instruments...but their songs sucks. They think that if they wank away on their instruments then that's all that's necessary; without realizing that tone, texture, melody, emotion, and in many instances restraint, is absolutely essential for making a good song.

I'd put John Mayer over pointless and tedious wankery like that for the simple fact that what he plays work as coherent songs and stories, but, short of whatever side projects he has, I still stand by my point that everything I've heard from him has been boring and just doesn't seem to have any edge to it. That, to me, does not make for good songs. I want, nay, NEED songs that challenge me, and not just something that's good to play as background music, which is something that way too many people use music for these days.

[woodstockbirdybird]

Well, Morrissey might have tried being a drummer at one point. I'm not sure about John Lydon, but I'd be surprised if he played any instruments and even more surprised if he was able to play any during the Sex Pistols days. I'd be even more surprised if Shane MacGowan played any instruments. As for Michael Stipe, he doesn't play guitar unless he learned recently, and I don't think he really played the piano. I suppose Chuck D might play keyboards now or something since he's done some work as a producer.
As for Justin Timberlake, it's possible that he knows how to play the guitar or piano himself.

Shane MacGowan does indeed play guitar (and a bit of piano, I think) - apparently, just not nearly as well as the musicians he's had in his bands. But he knows enough to be able to write all the songs he's written (unlike Morrissey, who gets songwriting credit even though all he comes up with are the lyrics and vocal melodies). Michael Stipe and John Lydon can't play shit, and neither can Chuck D., as far as I recall.

[AndyPolley]

Obviously you need to be able to make something good come OUT of your instrument, but let's take a band like Dream Theater for example. The guys are all virtuosos and they're blazing away in every direction on their instruments...but their songs sucks.

"Pull me Under" will be rocking the fuck out of folks long after Jack White is no longer considered cool.

Long Live Dream Theater!

[Hippy Hollow]

FTR, Morrissey played piano on "Death of a Disco Dancer." It's at the end after the lyrics. Mostly plonking and weird-sounding runs, but it works.

[Talon Karrde]

So some of them do play instruments, as far as you know.
Sure. That doesn't change my point.

Shane MacGowan does indeed play guitar (and a bit of piano, I think) - apparently, just not nearly as well as the musicians he's had in his bands. But he knows enough to be able to write all the songs he's written (unlike Morrissey, who gets songwriting credit even though all he comes up with are the lyrics and vocal melodies). Michael Stipe and John Lydon can't play shit, and neither can Chuck D., as far as I recall.
Well, I admit I kind of guessed on Shane MacGowan based on the fact that he only sings in all of the concert videos I've seen, and he doesn't seem the type to put an effort into learning an instrument.

FTR, Morrissey played piano on "Death of a Disco Dancer." It's at the end after the lyrics. Mostly plonking and weird-sounding runs, but it works.
I need to dig out my copy of Strangeways and listen to that now. Sounds interesting.

[don't ask]

No, but I've heard his mainstream fluff, and it was enough to write him off as a talented musician who simply lacked the ability to properly congeal those talents into a great song.

Now there's a songwriter:

I congeal the songs that make the whole world sing.
I congeal the songs of love and special things.
I congeal the songs that make the young girls cry.
I congeal the songs, I congeal the songs.

[Quint]

I do know that he writes his own music, and that automatically places him above the Timberlakes out there, who rely heavily on other people to write and express musical ideas that they otherwise would not have come up with on their own.
This is an opinion which I see frequently repeated, which reeks of ignorance. Did Frank Sinatra write his own material? How about Bilie Holiday? What about great songwriters who cannot perform their material to it's potential? Would you prefer if we only heard the Cole Porter version of his songs? What about Leonard Cohen? You can't seriously be suggesting that we only hear HIS versions of his songs? Great songwriting and great performances are two distinct talents, and to dismiss an artist because they can't combine the two is short sighted and narrow minded. Johnny Cash performed a number of songs that he never wrote, but which all became great Johnny Cash songs. You clearly have a great facility for hurling insults in an entertaining manner, just don't fuck it up by expressing ignorant opinions in order to justify your invective. Finally, I would like to add
All the bands you both like suck.

[Euthanasiast]

This is an opinion which I see frequently repeated, which reeks of ignorance.

Where your eyes must sting and reek of ball sweat from the inverted chin ups you were doing on cock* when you should have been reading the thread and grasping the context of what is being argued.

We've been talking about whether or not John Mayer is a proficient/shitty songwriter, not whether or not singers who do not write songs are talented in some way. Since John Mayer does write music, logic dictates that he has the upper hand in the ability to write songs, more so than someone who does not. If you do not write songs, then you are not a songwriter! Can't we at least fucking agree on that? Fact: According to published work, John Mayer is a much better songwriter than Elvis Presley. This is because Elvis Presley didn't write songs. You can argue that Elvis Presley was a better singer, but so far as I know, you cannot argue that he was a more talented songwriter. Am I making sense to you now?

I'm not dismissing the artist because he cannot combine singing and songwriting, but again, since the entire subject up for debate since the first flaming post has been about whether John Mayer is a proficient/shitty songwriter, then someone who doesn't write their own music, but sings what others have written is certainly not a fucking talented songwriter. This is why Justin Timberlake was dismissed out of hand (and to tell the truth, I am only going by what Soapbox Monkey said when he talked about producers writing with/for him in the CS thread--I have no idea what JT sings or writes).


(and re quoted from several others)
All the bands you both like suck.

You don't know what I like, shitbag, unless you've been going through all of my old posts, in which case you are saying that Stevie Ray Vaughan, Jimi Hendrix, Henry Garza, Buddy Guy, Lonnie Mack, Albert Collins, Eric Calpton, BB King, Jack White and an assload of other artists I have named as influences suck.

* I don't know whether you are male or female, so take that into consideration before you fly off the handle yet again, and incorrectly label me as homophobic.

[Seven]

Justin Timberlake vs. John Mayer??

Which is better? Putting a broken light bulb up your ass or breaking a whole one once it's in?

[sinjin]

And, for the record, wehn REM was touring for Up, Michael Stipe came out on stage and played a solo acoustic version of Hope. He said he had decided to learn to play guitar. When you or I can't play shit, we noodle around and play most of Indigo Girls (http://www.brunching.com/yourroommate.html) songs. When rock stars can't play shit, they apparently go out with their guitars and play before thousands. This is because they have balls the size of small dogs.

[Gary Kumquat]

Where your eyes must sting and reek of ball sweat from the inverted chin ups you were doing on cock* when you should have been reading the thread and grasping the context of what is being argued.

See, now you're trying way to hard. Grammatical errors, overly complex insults...I think I'm going to have to penalise this one.

[Euthanasiast]

See, now you're trying way to hard. Grammatical errors, overly complex insults...I think I'm going to have to penalise this one.

It's late, and my insult well is drying up.

[Euthanasiast]

See, now you're trying way to hard. Grammatical errors, overly complex insults...I think I'm going to have to penalise this one.

You meant too.

[Scissorjack]

Why all the hate for John Mayall?

[Contrapuntal]

Why all the hate for John Mayall?Because he plays the blues, which as Euthanasiast has pointed out, is a bullshit genre without any decent songwriters. Pay attention.

[Terrifel]

There are three things I have learned never to discuss in public: religion, politics, and Justin Timberlake.

[Euthanasiast]

Because he plays the blues, which as Euthanasiast has pointed out, is a bullshit genre without any decent songwriters. Pay attention.

I hate you.

[Ludovic]

Because he plays the blues, which as Euthanasiast has pointed out, is a bullshit genre without any decent songwriters. Pay attention.I thought he played emo!

[Quint]

We've been talking about whether or not John Mayer is a proficient/shitty songwriter, not whether or not singers who do not write songs are talented in some way. Since John Mayer does write music, logic dictates that he has the upper hand in the ability to write songs, more so than someone who does not. If you do not write songs, then you are not a songwriter! Can't we at least fucking agree on that? Fact: According to published work, John Mayer is a much better songwriter than Elvis Presley. This is because Elvis Presley didn't write songs. You can argue that Elvis Presley was a better singer, but so far as I know, you cannot argue that he was a more talented songwriter. Am I making sense to you now?

I'm not dismissing the artist because he cannot combine singing and songwriting, but again, since the entire subject up for debate since the first flaming post has been about whether John Mayer is a proficient/shitty songwriter, then someone who doesn't write their own music, but sings what others have written is certainly not a fucking talented songwriter. This is why Justin Timberlake was dismissed out of hand (and to tell the truth, I am only going by what Soapbox Monkey said when he talked about producers writing with/for him in the CS thread--I have no idea what JT sings or writes).




Right. Well, carry on then. As you were you two. Ignore the comprehension challenged individual in the tinfoil hat. Although In my defence I would say that NOT writing songs is an improvement over John Mayer, and in that sense almost every human on the planet is a better songwriter. Unless you're a teenage girl, which clearly Euthanasiast is.

[Gary Kumquat]

I thought he played emo!

Euthanasiast plays Emo? I knew there was a reason I hated him.

[Cluricaun]

Euthanasiast plays Emo? I knew there was a reason I hated him.

Wait, who plays Elmo? So we do have a board celebrity after all? Sweet.

[woodstockbirdybird]

You don't know what I like, shitbag, unless you've been going through all of my old posts, in which case you are saying that Stevie Ray Vaughan, Jimi Hendrix, Henry Garza, Buddy Guy, Lonnie Mack, Albert Collins, Eric Calpton, BB King, Jack White and an assload of other artists I have named as influences suck.
[/SIZE]

Well, I'm saying they all suck (especially as songwriters).

[look!ninjas]

You don't know what I like, shitbag, unless you've been going through all of my old posts, in which case you are saying that Stevie Ray Vaughan, Jimi Hendrix, Henry Garza, Buddy Guy, Lonnie Mack, Albert Collins, Eric Calpton, BB King, Jack White and an assload of other artists I have named as influences suck.

Erm. I think that was more of a gently pointed bon mot used to illustrate the foolishness of getting into an "I can insult you better!" pissing contest over the songwriting ability (or lack thereof) of John Mayer. No accounting for taste and all that.

For the record, I have no stake in this debate, although I will point out that John Mayer is a very very funny motherfucker. Also, while I don't know whether or not Chuck D. plays any instruments, Flavor Flav plays piano.

[alice_in_wonderland]

What about Leonard Cohen? You can't seriously be suggesting that we only hear HIS versions of his songs?

Well, I personally prefer all of Leonard Cohen's versions of his songs, but I recognize that I'm probably in the minority.

Honestly, I have no idea if the music he writes is any good or not, but he is such a masterful word smith that I don't much care.

So - as far as people I would do:

Leonard Cohen - hells yes, even though he's really old.

John Mayer - maybe

Justin Timberlake - not a chance.

I'll now return you to this debate, which this post has nothing to do with.

[The Hamster King]

Which is better? Putting a broken light bulb up your ass or breaking a whole one once it's in?I've probably laughed out loud less than a dozen times at something someone has written on the Straight Dope.

Congratulations, sir! Well done!

[Scissorjack]

Because he plays the blues, which as Euthanasiast has pointed out, is a bullshit genre without any decent songwriters. Pay attention.

Well, his baby she done him wrong.

[Contrapuntal]

I hate you.Well, as long as it's not because I'm beautiful ...

[Subterraneanus]

This thread is a good example of what I hate about the internet. Hell, it's a good example of what I hate about people.

[Contrapuntal]

This thread is a good example of what I hate about the internet. Hell, it's a good example of what I hate about people.Just for grins and giggles, what is it that you hate about the internet and people, and how is it exemplified in this thread?

[Really Not All That Bright]

Euthanasiast plays Emo? I knew there was a reason I hated him.
They euthanized Elmo? Thank God... I'm so sick of that little pink bastard.

[Cluricaun]

They euthanized Elmo? Thank God... I'm so sick of that little pink bastard.

Excuse me? Elmo is red, not pink. That just goes to show what you know about Muppets, and probably puppets for that matter. Next you'll be trying to compare Pinocchio and Elmo, right? :D

[Euthanasiast]

Well, as long as it's not because I'm beautiful ...

;)