Women and Men: some issues

[Spider Woman]

I started thinking about this while reading Wildest Bill's thread (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=39441) about whether or not to put the toilet seat up or down. This seemed to touch a nerve with me and some of the other women who posted there.

Sam Stone brought up the fact that there may be other issues involved when people are upset about the toilet lid, or how the toothpaste is squeezed, etc. I think he is right (about that part of his post).

The Central Minnesota area where I live is considered to be, for the most part, quite conservative, and somewhat behind the times (by my way of thinking) politically and socially. Many of the women I worked with in a factory for many years thought nothing of going home after working all day, and then making supper, taking care of the kids and doing all the housework, while the hubby sat in front of the television (a few of them actually read the newspaper). Some of these women did the outside work also, such as the gardening and mowing the lawn.

My first ex-husband was somewhat like these husbands. We got along pretty well when we were first married, because I was young and stupid and didn't mind doing all the housework even though we both worked full time. It made me feel like an adult (I was 21 when we married).

After we started having babies, I simply could no longer keep up. When I asked him for help, he refused. I asked him if he thought it was fair that we both worked full time (and for at least half of the ten years we were married, I out-earned him) but did not divide the housework. He replied, "I don't care if the house is clean. If you want it clean, clean it yourself."

The toilet seat was an issue in that marriage. There were other issues also, but it sort of boiled down to being a power struggle. He seemed to feel that because he was the man, he was the king of the house and I, as the woman, should obey him.

My dad, who is in his seventies, thinks that the women's liberation movement ruined the fabric of this country. He believes that women used to have it pretty good when they stayed home and took care of the men, and Betty Freidan and Gloria Steinem ruined a good thing for us.

I think that times are indeed changing, but it seems to be difficult for those in power to let go of it, or to share it. Some people even want to revoke the 19th amendment (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=39503).

So here, finally, is my question to the Dopers:

How do you work this out in your own lives, married, living together, seriously dating a member of the opposite sex (or even the same sex, if these issues somehow apply). Do you and your partner have a way of working things out that you feel is fair to you both, or is it a constant power struggle, a one-up-man-ship contest?

[slythe, I hope this belongs here and not in Great Debates. I'll let you be the judge.]

[tatertot]

Oooh, tricky question, Spider Woman, this is something that has been hashed and rehashed the entire time I've been with my husband.

*Standard Disclaimer: I Love My Husband Very Much*

I am a stay-at-home mother, and as such, I fully expect to do 95% of the housework. However, it gets on my last goshdarn nerve when Hubby does not do what little bit I expect him to. For example: I am more than willing to do the dishes, but I am not willing to pick them up from wherever he's left them around the house. I do the laundry, but I don't think I should have to go through every nook and cranny in the house looking for his dirty socks.

I see this as a respect issue, he tells me that he just "forgets". I don't think he realizes how much extra work he is creating for me...I did not choose to stay home because I love housework, I stay home to spend time with our son.

I'll say this, perhaps if he could "remember" to rinse his icky facial hair, shaving cream scum and toothpaste out of the sink every morning, I might "remember" to be in the mood more that 2.5 nights a week.

Suffice it to say, that we have not completely worked through this problem.

[Spider Woman]

A friend of mine who lives around here used to work full time. When she discovered that her husband expected her to do all the traditionally "wimmen's work," she told him "If I hold an outside job, you are helping with the housework."

They solved this by her staying home to be a housewife and mother, and he has the job outside of the home. Eventually, they found they needed more money, so she began doing daycare in her home. He still stuck to the original agreement, and she still had to do all the housework.

Their kids are all grown up now, and I must say, her husband has grown up too. He stopped being an idiot and realized what a gem of a wife he has, but it was a gradual process. I admire her for having more staying power than I did, but I feel that she lost much, too.

I guess everybody has to pick their battles, but it seems like every married couple I talk to has some of these issues.

[tatertot]

I would also like to add that I am training TinyTot to be different, but it would sure help if his father would set a better example.

Many of the women I worked with in a factory for many years thought nothing of going home after working all day, and then making supper, taking care of the kids and doing all the housework, while the hubby sat in front of the television (a few of them actually read the newspaper).

This makes me so mad! You just described the family that I grew up in. And as I start taking on more freelance assignments, things had better change around the Tot household...grrrrr. I will be anxiously follwing this thread, trying to find ways to solve this problem.

(BTW, I would like to give a big raspberry to Redbook magazine for publishing those articles on how to get hubby to help with the housework. "Let him do it his way" they say. Don't they know that husbands like mine take these magazines to the bathroom with them, trying to find pictures of boobies? Hubby reads that and thinks "Gee, I'll just do things to my standards and then I'll get wild monkey sex". Umm, no. Do I get credit for half-assed work? Hell no. If I did things to his "standards" we would have all died from food poisoning or dust asyphiation a long time ago. I see their point, but these things should only be discussed at our top secret women's meetings, not in a magazine that they'll let anyone buy.)

Sorry for my rant - today is Fall Cleaning Day. :)

[Spider Woman]

I'm glad to hear that TinyTot may have a different outlook on things. Unfortunately, if he sees his dad not helping with things, he might have more of a tendency to slip into his dad's ways if/when he marries (sorry to sound cynical), because of his dad being his main male role model.

The trick I heard some men telling each other at the factory where I worked: when you are asked to do something, do it so badly that they'll eventually get tired of asking you to do it, and do it themselves.

The magazine articles like that bother me, because I don't think men should have to be manipulated or tricked into doing what's right. But those articles apparently sell magazines.

[tatertot, what kind of freelancing do you do?]

[tatertot]

I think I might have painted MisterTot in a much more negative light than he deserves. He's bad, but all in all he's a good man. We do have to work on this issue, but it's nothing I'd divorce him over.

Women's magazines suck.

I do a little big of everything, actually. Mostly marketing, but since jobs are so limited here (and I don't have a work permit), I find myself doing things all sorts of things. Right now, I'm translating French porn flicks into English. Go ahead, make a joke, everyone else has.

[el_mono]

Uh, ladies, 'scuse me. I just gotta jump in on this one (and I suspect that it'll be a popular thread). Sure, there are differnces in the way that men and women operate, but damn, ain't that part of the mystique? Here's my opinion, and it may seem a bit simplistic, but I think that most of us fail to choose wisely when selecting a mate. Blinded by lust, needs, desires or mind-altering substances we end up saddled with a mate or SO with whom we have very little in common. Having made this error it is only natural to allow little things to loom larger and larger as we search for justification to get the hell out of a lousy relationship.
Relationships of any type are hard work. As a single father with a 17 yo daughter living with me I have been required to make more adjustments than a chiropractor with an office next door to gym. It's all about about compromise. I think that we make the man/woman issue way too complicated. Venus? Mars? Bullshit, we're all from the same planet and wasting time searching for convenient excuses removes the focus from the real problem. Usually it turns out that we are our own worst enemies and fail to realize just how much power we have over our lives.
That's the way I see it; what are your views?

[Spider Woman]

Who did/does the housework in the relationship from whence the 17 year old daughter came?

I agree about differences being interesting. I just don't believe in abuse of power, or doing (or not doing) something just because you know you can get away with it, as was the case in the marriages described to me by my factory co-workers.

I grew tired of arguing with my first husband over lots of issues, and I also grew tired of cleaning up his messes. He now lives alone, and his apartment is filthy, and he is a lonely man. But if that had been the only issue between us, I may have been willing to put up with him.

Thanks for your input; this is an issue for both men and women.

[astorian]

I don't know any of the parties in question here- MAYBE the men in question ARE just lazy slobs who ought to pitch in and do more housework. Certainly, many men DO fall into that category.

BUT...

It appears that, even when women are working full-time, they STILL expect the house to look as if June Cleaver were home cleaning it every day. They THEN start resenting their husbands for not doing their "fair share" to create that Cleaver-esque household.

SOME men are just lazy. But just as often, men don't see a NEED for a toilet so clean you can eat out of it!

Isn't it possible- just possible- that women should accept a certain level of imperfection in their households, rathering than simmering at their husbands?

[Spider Woman]

I think you have a good point there. Anyone looking at my house would tell you that I am not an immaculate housekeeper, but in this area there are many women who are, so that may be a bone of contention in those households.

But there are other "house cleaning" chores that simply must be done, such as laundry, and cooking, or people will wear dirty, smelly clothing, and have nothing to eat. And there are many men who refuse to have anything to do with these tasks also, even when both the men and women work full time.

[Ruffian]

Actually, thus far, it is not a problem. I am more organized than he is, but he likes things clean and does a fair share. As far as when we're married and who's doing what chore, we've mentioned that the inside of the house will be my forté and the outside (gardening, lawncare, etc) will be his. This doesn't mean I won't do any of the outside work, or that he won't lift a finger inside. He is not the type, thank God, to sit on the couch while I cook dinner and then clean it up. When I do cook, he likes to help out--both in the cooking and cleaning up. We see it as a partnership...equals...both responsible for the mess we make. A certain amount of give will be necessary; I, the more anal one, will have to learn to live with a little more clutter, and he, the "casual" one, will have to learn to be a little more organized. Just a little meeting-in-the-middle.

[Spider Woman]

Ruffian, that is lovely. I wish there were more guys like DeathLlama around, and maybe there will be for my daughters' generation. Happiness to you both.

-----:)
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[matt_mcl]

I shared my first apartment with my on-again-off-again (now permanently "off") boyfriend Éric. He was completely anal-retentive about housework. I didn't know how to explain to him that the Pope wasn't coming for mac and cheese tomorrow, so we ended up having some very large fights.

[pepperlandgirl]

Well, me and Jim sorta share the work. If he has the day off and I'm at school, then he does all the house-work. If I have the day off and he's at work, then I do all the house-work. If we are both off together, we divvy up the chores. (Me: You clean the kitchen, I'll do the laundry. Him: Why don't you clean the kitchen? Me: You are the only one who knows how to do it right, Dear.)
We rarely have fights about it. Though, no matter what, I always cook dinner. I know, I know, I should just teach him, and then he can do it too. But I've come to to the conclusion that no matter how patient I am, he will not learn to cook. It doesn't bother me though.
FTR, he always puts the toilet seat down. His mother trained him well, I didn't even have to nag him about it. And thankfully, neither one of us have issues over the toothpaste.

[Feynn]

Lola and I seem to have it worked out because neither of us are traditionalists in any sense of the word. With me working 50+ hours a week and with her going to school we just do what has to be done when we have the time.

I get up in the moring and while Lola gets ready for school I make the coffee and help her get her stuff together. When it gets cold I'll be going out to start the van and wipe the snow off in the mornings. (There is a remote starter in our future). After she leaves for school I get the boys up and get them ready and out the door to school. By then the girls are awake and there's a baby who needs to be changed, fed, bathed, and cuddled. Our other daughter is three and is gettting almost too self sufficient. If the girls are content I can usually get the house picked up and get my stuff ready for the day. When Lola gets home I head for work. When I get home there is more stuff to do and I usually get the kids to bed so that Lola can work on homework...

I know men who are simply amazed that I cook, clean, and do laundry. These are generally older guys who had wives that stayed at home while they worked.

Don't ever say that I "babysit" my kids. Moms don't babysit and neither do dads.

I put the seat down and freak out when people leave clothes lying all over the place or mess up the bathroom.

Note: Our house always looks like a cyclone went through it even if it was cleaned five minutes before.

I just consider this the way men should be and don't see myself as being unusual.

[Rysdad]

Originally posted by Spider Woman
The Central Minnesota area where I live is considered to be, for the most part, quite conservative, and somewhat behind the times (by my way of thinking) politically and socially. Many of the women I worked with in a factory for many years thought nothing of going home after working all day, and then making supper, taking care of the kids and doing all the housework, while the hubby sat in front of the television (a few of them actually read the newspaper). Some of these women did the outside work also, such as the gardening and mowing the lawn.

:::hooks thumbs in belt, assumes a prideful stance:::

"Ya shoor, our Minnesota vimmen, dey know dere place."

Too bad I've never met any of 'em. :)

In those instances that I've shared accomodations with a woman, housework/yardwork gradually evolved into each person assuming the duties that the other person disliked the most. For example, I hate washing dishes, but I don't mind doing laundry. I don't enjoy vacuuming, but I like to keep the bathroom clean. The ex- was not a good cook, and I am, so I did the cooking alot.

The biggest problem we had was after our son was born. I was working full-time, and she was staying home. In my mind, since she was staying home and could sleep during the day, she should be the one who got up in the middle of the night. She didn't agree.

One more thing, I don't need to be told that the lawn needs to be mowed. I can see that. It doesn't, however, mean that I'm going to mow it this minute. Telling me, repeatedley, that it needs to be mowed won't get it done any sooner. It can wait until this weekend.

[Spider Woman]

I am glad to hear that there is more sharing in the younger generation of relationships, although I guess there will always be disagreement as to how clean or neat or well kept a residence needs to be.

What makes me sad is when people use an established power structure to justify what they want to do, even if it may not be right, as some men in this community do in invoking the old saw "That's wimmen's work."

To paraphrase an Oskar Schindler quote from the death penalty thread, just because you have the power to do something, doesn't make doing it right.

And some old power structures don't die easily.

[Scarlett67]

Originally posted by Feynn
Lola and I seem to have it worked out because neither of us are traditionalists in any sense of the word. With me working 50+ hours a week and with her going to school we just do what has to be done when we have the time.

Same here. Mr. Scarlett leaves for work around 6:30 am and gets home around 6 or 7 pm; I'm self-employed and work at home. The house is generally on the sloppy side -- but we're in a perpetual state of construction/remodeling, and there's just no keeping up with the dog hair.

The cooking is done by whoever has the most energy at the end of the day. Sometimes that's both of us -- and sometimes it's neither, and we go out. Luckily there are no kids in the equation (and there won't be, knock on wood). Same with housekeeping -- although I must say I have relaxed my standards on how Mr. Scarlett does things, which is perhaps a good thing given my perfectionism. So now I don't care if all the dishes don't get done at once -- at least some of them are clean now. Although I wish he would give the stove and sink a wipedown when he's done.

We split the bills -- he pays some and I pay others, and there's no joint checking account. His income is roughly 1-1/2 times mine, so he pays about that share of the bills or perhaps a little more; OTOH, I tend to get paid in big chunks, so I often buy big-ticket items like appliances, furniture, and lumber. I also pay for most of our concert tickets and vacations.

He feeds and waters all our pets -- one house dog, two yard dogs, six outside cats, and two cockatiels. He says it's the farm boy in him -- he can't rest until the animals are taken care of.

I know men who are simply amazed that I cook, clean, and do laundry. These are generally older guys who had wives that stayed at home while they worked.

We use a Laundromat. Mr. Scarlett sorts the laundry (minus my hand wash, which is considerable and which I do myself) at home and usually I go along to help load the machines. He does the final determination of dryness -- he's more fussy and doesn't want his shirts fried. We learned this when we moved in together and it's been status quo ever since. I help fold.

Once when he was sorting dry clothes, and I was asking him what was OK to start folding, I noticed a late-20ish chick watching us as she did her wash, her mouth slightly agape. I think she was stunned that he was running the laundry show.

We both put the seat and the lid down to keep the dog out of there.

Mr. Scarlett was the youngest of seven children, and his three next-older siblings were sisters. He grew up surrounded by women, and he also saw his mother and all three sisters get shafted by jerks. Consequently, he truly understands us (mostly) and respects us. He's also kind to children, animals large and tiny, and old people.

Yes, ladies, I realize that I've got quite a catch. He's a prince!

[Spider Woman]

I would be interested in hearing from some people, if there are any at the SDMBs, who are currently in a relationship where both partners work full time, yet one of them ends up doing most of the housework while the other one relaxes. Is that mostly a Central Minnesota phenomenon?

Viewpoints from both sexes would be interesting to hear.

[tomndebb]

I am glad to hear that there is more sharing in the younger generation of relationships

What younger generation? We've been married seventeen years (and did not marry young) and I do most of the laundry, most of the dishes, vacuum the carpet, and cook several times a week. It's no big deal. My dad and mom were the typical he-works/she-stays-home couple of the 1950's, and dad always helped with the cooking or cleaning when mom needed the help.

I cannot remember even discussing "division of labor" or anything similar. One does what needs to be done.

We have had occasions where I was doing all the housework and child-tending, but since those occasions coincided with my wife suffering an emergency appendectomy, a detached retina, or multiple broken bones, I generally don't hold them against her. (My next wife may need to be a bit more durable, however.)

[BlackKnight]

Having never had a SO, I can't speak from direct experience. However, I've observed my parents for years and here's how things worked with them:

Mom would do most of the indoor chores. Dad would do all of the outdoor chores. Dad would nearly always do the cooking, which was a good thing (trust me on this). Both worked, although until a few years ago my mom only worked parttime, because my siblings and I were too young to care for ourselves. Mom quite often complained about the work she did, while my father rarely made a peep of protest, even when shouldering an unfair burden.

My dad was both capable and willing to do more around the house, but when he did something, mom would tell him he did it wrong and an argument ensued.

Not only that, my mom is extremely sexist in dividing up chores for me and my sibs. Boys mow lawn, girls do laundry, boys kill spider, girls go get boy to kill spider, etc.

HOPEFULLY, if (big if) I ever get a SO, she won't be much like my mother. And hopefully, I'll be a lot like my dad.

[Spider Woman]

Bless you, Tom, you sound like a gem. My parents also were that typical fifties couple, but when she became ill with cancer, he waited on her, and did all the housework, and took care of her at home in the final stages of her illness (with some support from hospice staff).

And my dad is also the one who showed me his special patent pending baby hold that always seemed to keep babies happy, so he must have done quite a lot of that even though he worked full time (and then some, he was a public school band director who brought work home at night and taught summer band also).

My ideal mate would be the one who pitches in with the work until it is done, and does not wait to be asked or told what to do. I suppose it also helps to have an agreed on state of cleanliness or tasks that need to be completed.

[Spider Woman]

kill spider

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[BlackKnight, do you kill spiders?][said Spider Woman, hi-jacking her own thread]

[BlackKnight]

Originally posted by Spider Woman
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[BlackKnight, do you kill spiders?][said Spider Woman, hi-jacking her own thread]

Only the non-cute ones. You have nothing to worry about. ;)

[Saint Zero]

Where do you people find these idiots? and why do you put up with them? :)

My house, growing up. If it needed to be done, it got done. Usually by whomever happened to be standing nearest the mess. None of this "division of labor" bull. My Mom told you to hop, you made froglike noises and got to work. Both parents can Cook, and I am dang good myself. Both cleaned the kitchen. Outside work was mowing, mostly. And that was the kids job. Seeing as how all we had to do was run the mower over the front yard.

My house, now. Wife works. I tend kids. Jobs still get done. I do all cooking, as my wife is continually impressed by my talents. And I'm better.

[TroubleAgain]

Originally posted by Spider Woman
I would be interested in hearing from some people, if there are any at the SDMBs, who are currently in a relationship where both partners work full time, yet one of them ends up doing most of the housework while the other one relaxes. Is that mostly a Central Minnesota phenomenon?

Viewpoints from both sexes would be interesting to hear.

Female, 34, married 6+ years. He'll be 40 next week. Central Florida. We have issues with this. (I love my husband, wouldn't trade him for anything, but...) He wants the house clean, but doesn't want to do the cleaning. I do the cooking. I do the bill-paying. I do 90% of the laundry. I do ALL of the bathroom cleaning. He'll do the 10% of the laundry if I ask him to. He'll vacuum, but won't dust or pick up. He'll help with cleaning the kitchen, but only if I ask, or if I am feeling poorly (or he wants sex.) I take care of the pets (They're YOUR pets, it's your JOB to take care of them, he says, as he pets the cat in his lap and plays tug-of-war with the dog...)

Then when he does something? He announces it. "I cleaned the kitchen, honey." "I washed a load of towels, dear." What do you want, a freaking medal? Way I see it, we both work 40 hours a week, with me frequently working more. I earn about $3/hour more than him. Why the hell is it "helping me" with the few things he does, instead of him seeing it as doing what is his part as a responsible adult? Oh, sure, he mows once a week. But he doesn't do anything with MY truck, I take care of it myself (getting oil changes, washing, etc.) He doesn't garden or anything like that. So what the hell is his share of this?

Sorry for the rant, but this is a subject dear to my heart. He was raised by a 50's-type couple and is used to seeing men waited on hand-and-foot. He knows intellectually that isn't fair in our situation, but doesn't choose to do anything about it. I am amazed how a husband so loving, thoughtful and sweet in other ways can be so dense about this!!! :mad:

[MysterEcks]

Men are from Mars, women are from Venus, and they meet at Earth. This is kinda the same problem Belgium had with the French and Germans, if you think about it.

My ex-wife and I never had any problems with housework--we both cooked, and cleaned, and did laundry, etc. There were some differences--what I would cook was pretty simple, whereas she would cook more involved things, for example--but it was pretty much 50-50.

[Spider Woman]

TroubleAgain, I know what you mean. If you wanted to start WWIII, you could probably print out this thread and show it to him, but if you're somewhat happy, is it worth the effort? :( Sad when you think about it.

I wonder if any men like your husband will read this and post here, and actually admit to doing this.

MysterEcks, I knew there was some reason I liked you (besides your erudite and intelligent posts)!

I feel safer now, BlackKnight.

[Spider Woman]

Oh, and Saint Zero, I forgot to answer: Where do you people find these idiots? and why do you put up with them? :)Central Minnesota has lots of them.

I think that might be a good reason to live with someone before you marry him, because I actually talked about this to my first husband before we were married. He talked the talk but didn't walk the walk.

Maybe sometimes it comes down to the abuse of power thing: doing it because you know you can get away with it.

This was more the reason I divorced both of my husbands than the actual housework thing, there were other abuses of power. And it is a reason that I am very leery of ever marrying again.

[TroubleAgain]

Originally posted by Spider Woman
TroubleAgain, I know what you mean. If you wanted to start WWIII, you could probably print out this thread and show it to him, but if you're somewhat happy, is it worth the effort? :( Sad when you think about it.


Probably not, my arachnid friend. I love him incredibly and he loves me too. He is wonderful in just about every other way. I have written out a letter to him, detailing all of my feelings about this, because I don't fight or argue well. I get very upset and cry and can't express my logically thought out points. But I've never given it to him, because he always apologizes before I can do that and starts to do more around the house again, and I feel strange about giving him the letter. It lasts for a while, but....

The next step for us will be to rigidly define (on paper) a fairer division of labor. But I don't want to go there, because two caring, mature adults shouldn't have to do that.

[Spider Woman]

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This is sort of what I mean by an abuse of power, they do better for a while, but know that they will appease and eventually be able to slip back into the old ways. But maybe as the whole power structure changes, years down the line, younger women will not have to deal with this as much, especially if people like tatertot try to teach their sons different ways.


And it sounds like there are postitive aspects to your relationship which make up for this issue. In my previous relationships, there were not.

[doreen]

I would be interested in hearing from some people, if there are any at the SDMBs, who are currently in a relationship where both partners work full time, yet one of them ends up doing most of the housework while the other one relaxes. Is that mostly a Central Minnesota phenomenon?

Here's one. Why do I do most of the housework? Because my choices are nag,do it myself or leave it undone.I don't have particularly high housekeeping standards, but I don't want every dish we own to be piled up on the counter growing mold before any are washed.At some point, I get annoyed that we haven't got any clean dishes and load the dishwasher. He then comes home and says I didn't have to do it, he was going to do it tonight.I have to admit though, it didn't get like this until we had kids, who multiplied the housework and added some new chores ( supervising homework, driving to activities, etc).I suspect part of the reason is we seem to be living in a 1950's time warp, where most of the women we know either don't have jobs, only work part-time,or have a very different sort of job than I do.He compares himself to the other men he knows and says he does more housework etc. than they do ( which is true) Then I ask him if I can quit my job and work part-time as a cashier in Rite Aid like their wives do.I maintain that the proper comparison for him to make is not how much he does compared to the men he knows, but how much he does compared to me. Am I looking for a divorce? No, but if I ever do this will be a major reason

[Spider Woman]

I do have an s.o. with whom I now live. This arrangement came up faster than we thought it would, through a situation I won't go into here.

Sometimes I think I hurt his feelings by not taking everything he says on faith. My thought is that some of us women don't go so much by someone saying "I love you," as by the actions that show whether or not this is true, or if the person loves us in the way we wish to be loved.

Faith builds up through the years, not by someone just saying they love you, but by observing their actions and whether or not those actions match with what is said.

[lolagranola]

Well, Feynn accurately described our living situation. It's also similar to Scarlett67's except that you have to add four kids to the mix.

I honestly could not be with someone who felt that all of the housework was my job. I grew up believing in the equality of men and women. Whoever has more time does more housework. That can vary from day to day.

Incidently, when I do graduate and get a job, Feynn plans on dropping to part time work to stay at home more and take care of the house.

[Spider Woman]

lolagranola and Feynn, I am happy for you, and for the Scarletts, too. Thanks for sharing this; it brightens my day.

-----:)
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[Salieri2]

from Spider Woman, once again, with feeling:

I would be interested in hearing from some people, if there are any at the SDMBs, who are currently in a relationship where both partners work full time, yet one of them ends up doing most of the housework while the other one relaxes. Is that mostly a Central Minnesota phenomenon?

Viewpoints from both sexes would be interesting to hear.

The fella I live with is quite neat, organized, hardworking and houseproud. He can and does clean like a demon. I, on the other hand, am a slob who must be prodded with a sharp stick [or run out of underwear] before getting off my butt to start a load of laundry. I do clean the bathrooms, which he hates, and do 95% of all cooking, because I can; however, I would estimate the division of labor to be 85% he vs 14% me [I give the dog 1% for picking up any food item .001 seconds after it hits the floor and sucking it down. She gets every molecule.] I can clean, and well, but I generally just don't. BUT...

...the likely difference between myself and my central Minnesota male slob counterparts is that I hate living like this and feel guilty as sin, and I bet they don't. I have absolutely no excuse for this, it is a ghastly flaw. I do make special efforts to clean when my SO's working late, stressed, ill, or otherwise needing less extraneous BS in his life, so that when he gets home at 10:45 he's not looking at a kitchen full of scummy pots. But I suck, I admit it, and I'm trying to change. In aid of which, I'd better go deal with the organisms in the sink. Oh, and I'm from the East Coast, he's from Chicago, and we live in the midwest. Me: raised by dish-doing Dad and bone-clean but untidy Mom, Him: single-mother.

[Medea's Child]

Here is where I rant. A lot. Ignore if needed.

I love my parents. My mom does international business manager stuff all of the time. She works twelve hour days five-six days a week more often than not. She works hard, because my dad refuses to get a job. Admittedly, its hard for him, he is one of those 'so smart society hurts' people. This would be fine if he would have the human decency to parent the kids. However, parenting is not something he understands. He doesn't see it as a giving relationship, he sees it as a getting relationship. "What do kids do for me?" He won't clean. His version of cleaning is to scream at the kids until they run and hide, sulk until mom gets home, and explain what horrible brats 'her' kids are.

I want him gone. I want him gone, gone, gone, gone, gone. I don't know what my mom would do with my sisters, but it has to be better than what he would. I could take one of them, if it comes to that.

Growl. "Division of labor"

My goal for a future relationship is division of labor by who has the most time and ability. (I hate doing dishes, but I like cooking and laundry. Dead spiders earn blow jobs.) Tho I like doing almost any chore with someone.

Sorry for the rant. Its a touchy issue. My mom is a wonderful person and deserves so much better than what she has done with her life.

[tatertot]

I'm wondering if there are any other stay at home parents that are going through the same things as I am. I don't think MisterTot understands what I go through during my day, and he feels the same, vice versa. I'm not your typical fifties wifey, either...things are so different now. 3 or 4 days a week, I'm doing volunteer work, the kidlet only goes to school for 3 hours a day right now...it's not like when I was a child and my mother could let me run out and play while she got things done. I'd be arrested! I'm not complaining that my job is terribly hard - it's just that frankly, I'm not in the home as much as he thinks and don't have the time that he thinks I do. I wish Ophrah would come and do one of those "switch jobs for a weeks" things for our family...might open both of our eyes.

This might not be related, but I'm wondering if the fact that we got married so young and had a baby right away (two weeks after the wedding, matter of fact) has some bearing on this. A lot of our peers just can't understand that I do indeed like being home, and that the small bit of money I could earn by taking a regular job is just not worth it to us. I'm wondering if we had other couples our age going through the same struggles, if it would help us.

[BlackKnight]

I just wanted to say that I would love to be a "house-husband" and cook and clean while my hypothetical future wife works fulltime to support us.

Unfortunately, I really doubt that will ever happen.

Any other guys feel the same?

[Medea's Child]

It can happen, BlackKnight. Very easily, I know several girls, myself included, who would enjoy such a set up. Look carefully at what you really want though. House-dad is rough stuff. I had one. It is a lot of work. And your kids will not like you if you screw it up. (You can fire your dad. Trust me.) The same is for house-moming but society is more gentle with it.

The housewife deal makes me ill. I could go for working part time at something little and fun. I will always have a job though. None of this, "What are you doing with my money?" crap.

[Angkins]

I would like to speak on behalf of the men out there that DO housework!

My hubby does most of the housework. He vaccums, does dishes, cleans the dreaded bathroom and does the laundry. He cooks when I am not home to do it, which is often as I have a very demanding job the requires alot of time, and if he didn't he would have to go to work hungry (he works 6pm-2am).
On my days off I usually do the housework, but he still does laundry. I turn things funny colours and are no longer allowed to do laundry! (Whick is fine by me!) :D

We share the yard work. He does do the stuff that is harder to do like digging. I take care of the flower beds and stuff like that.

If something needs to be fixed, that is his job......makes him feel like Tim Allen or something!!

If it is something I want done in the house,like painting, I do that myself.....he just gets in the way ;)

[Biggirl]

Actual arguement, verbatim:
Biggirl: What are you talking about? If I don't do it, it doesn't get done!

Houseman: Whaddya mean? This place is an absoulute pig sty!

Biggirl: Yeah, because I don't do it!

When my children were born I stayed home for 2 years. I was at home and I did the housework. It just made sense. When I went back to full time work, the housework just went by the wayside. Now whoever can't stand the mess any longer, cleans it.

[BlackKnight]

Originally posted by Medea's Child
Look carefully at what you really want though. House-dad is rough stuff.

Obviously I'm still thinking about such things, and don't have a set-in-stone decision on what I want yet. Heck, I'm only 19.

I want to clarify that I said house-husband, not house-dad. I don't want kids, or at least no more than one of them at the most. I think house-dad would be much more difficult than just house-husband.

But even if I had two or three little buggers to take care of, that appeals to me more than getting a job and working for a living.

Oh, and Medea's Child, which girls are those?? C'mon, cough up some names and numbers! ;)

[Spider Woman]

Salieri2, your reply is the closest one to a viewpoint from the "other side," although you are female, and as you say, you feel guilty about it. And you are aware that it is a flaw and are working to change it.

tater, at one time I really wanted to be a stay-at-home mom. Once my first ex actually suggested that, but we were already in financial sress, and I didn't trust him enough to do that (a mistrust that was eventually justified). I admired and envied those of my friends who stayed at home with their children, and, like you, they did volunteer work too.

BlackKnight, I agree with Medea's Child that you may not know what you are getting yourself into. Very few young people realize all the work involved in running a household and keeping it clean and/or functional.

Biggirl, I like your attitude. Angkins, you and your hubby are among the lucky ones.

I am still wondering if any of the guys who don't help with the housework will post here and give their take as to why they don't.

[tatertot]

But even if I had two or three little buggers to take care of, that appeals to me more than getting a job and working for a living

:rolleyes:

[BlackKnight]

Originally posted by Spider Woman
BlackKnight, I agree with Medea's Child that you may not know what you are getting yourself into. Very few young people realize all the work involved in running a household and keeping it clean and/or functional.

I'm sorry, but I just have to ask this:
If I were female, and had said that I found the idea of getting a job and working for a living more appealing than being a house-spouse, would you have responded with "You may not realize what you are getting yourself into. Very few young people realize all the work involved in having a career"?

I'm sorry if I sound defensive and/or uptight, but these sorts of things bother me significantly.

[TroubleAgain]

Originally posted by Spider Woman
////TroubleAgain\\\\

-----:(
---////\\\\


(snip)
And it sounds like there are postitive aspects to your relationship which make up for this issue. In my previous relationships, there were not.

Thanks for the Spidey hugs. And yes, this is really about the only negative aspect to our marriage. Pretty much everything else is wonderful.

[The Asbestos Mango]

Originally posted by BlackKnight
I just wanted to say that I would love to be a "house-husband" and cook and clean while my hypothetical future wife works fulltime to support us.

Unfortunately, I really doubt that will ever happen.

Any other guys feel the same?

BlackKnight, will you marry me?

[MysterEcks]

Spider Woman said:

MysterEcks, I knew there was some reason I liked you (besides your erudite and intelligent posts)!

:)

(There goes what passes for mymodesty for the week.)

I'm going to make a WAG that the older the guy in question, the less likely he is to do his share of the housework. (I'm aware this is a big overgeneralization, so do not send me outraged mail.) I think I'm probably on the cusp--I was born in 1963, when the stereotypical roles were still the norm, but I came of age in the early '80s, by which time the norms were well on their way to changing.

[Girl Hermit]

When my husband and I got married we wrote out our own vows and although we did not read them in front of the guests, we read them to each other in private.
Parts of his were:
"I, John, promise to carry all the heavy things, put away and take down all the stuff off high shelves, be both the bug killer and the squished bug cleaner-upper, to provide leg and back rubs without even mentioning sex, or at least try to, to wait patiently in the car, outside dressing rooms and on mall benches while you decide which is the perfect one out of those 7 identical white shirts. I promise to at least look away from the TV when asked "does this match" and to try to remember what colors go with what if not why, to take the garbage out because its smelly and to do any job that involves removing oil from under your fingernails afterwards."
Parts of mine were:
"I, Jennifer, promise to cook meals that are edible if not elegant, to clean the house just enough as to not have to flip the lights off and hide if company drops by, to not nag you about eating vegetables even if I really really really think you are going to drop dead one day if you don't eat...never mind, to tell you when that mystery light blinks on the dashboard for a week and to especially tell you when it stops blinking and stays on solid, to wait patiently in the car and on mall benches while you decide which is the perfect one out of those 7 identical computer games and to every once in awhile respond to sexual advances resulting from back rubs or leg rubs being given to me."

So far, its working. :)

It may be "old fashioned" in that we both think there are "boy jobs" and "girl jobs" in a partnership but it works for us. It is also not set in stone. He, for example, does all the laundry in the house because I hate doing it. I do all the garbage that needs to be recycled because the difference in plastics eludes him.
As our relationship evolves and changes so do the "rules" and the household jobs. What works today may not work next year and so while we both think there are jobs that fall into a certain persons area of responsibility that does not mean that person is the best able to do that job.

[Spider Woman]

In answer to your questionI'm sorry, but I just have to ask this:
If I were female, and had said that I found the idea of getting a job and working for a living more appealing than being a house-spouse, would you have responded with "You may not realize what you are getting yourself into. Very few young people realize all the work involved in having a career"?

No, I wouldn't have, because in my (probably biased) opinion, I think that many people are prepared for careers by the training they take in college, and by internships, and even stuff they see on television.

But even if my daughters were to say they want to stay home and have babies and be housewives, I would warn them that there is a lot more to that than it seems, because so many people take the work that women have traditionally done for granted, because many of them did it so efficiently and invisibly that the people they did it for had no idea what all was involved. My mother was one of these people who did everything for all of us, and did not have us do nearly enough of it to prepare us for real life, because she did it so well and efficienty herself. It was easier than training us, I guess.

BlackKnight, we need to talk agisofia into coming from Vegas to the Central MN Dopefest so you can meet your future intended. :D

jawofech, I love those wedding vows, and I think any marriage that includes a lot of humor has a good head-start.

MysterEcks, agisofia, and some of you others, I forgot to mention you at that intelligence thread, but I find that so many of your posts are filled with common sense and humor, and even when I don't agree with everyone, I appreciate the many and varied kinds of intelligences evidenced around the forums.

[Dolores Reborn]

We have a very non-tradional home. My husband is retired due to medical reasons, and he home-schools our 16-year-old son. I am the breadwinner. I do the grocery shopping and cooking. Hubby does the laundry. (He did this even when he was working because I'm really terrible at it.) My son does the dishes, and helps cook a little. We have someone mow the yard for $50 a month. Money well spent! My son takes care of the dog. My husband pays the bills. Dusting, vacuuming and bathrooms are done by all of us... sometimes! We're not very good housekeepers, but we value time spent together enjoying each other's company more than a spotless house. It works for us!

[tracer]

jawofech wrote, as part of her wedding vows:

to not nag you about eating vegetables even if I really really really think you are going to drop dead one day if you don't eat...never mind,

He sounds like a man after my own heart. ;)

(Did I ever mention that I really, really, really hate vegetables?)

[Rocketeer]

Okay, let's see. The wife (Lore) and I both work full-time, two kids, 9 and 12. We're in the usual Barely Keeping Up With The Mess mode that working parents get into. This is how the chores get divvied up; some is by formal agreement, some because it just seemed natural.

Lore's contribution:

Get up the girls every morning
Prepare breakfast (5/7)
Take young one to school
Prepare dinner (1/7)
Grocery shopping (1/2)
Take out garbage
Make beds
Vacation planning
Major life decisions (buy home, have kids)
Dispose of feathered dead things (we have an Enthusiastic Hunter Cat)

Kids' contribution (They get paid for these chores):

Vacuum (once a week)
Clean toilets (once/week)
Clean sinks (once/week)
Do dinner dishes (about half the time)
Help fold laundry (about half the time)
Feed Enthusiastic Hunter Cat

My contribution:

Pick up young one at school
Prepare dinner (6/7); breakfast (2/7)
Laundry
Grocery shopping (1/2)
Pay bills
Auto maintenance and repair
Home repair
Mow lawn
Financial strategy
Heavy lifting
Dispose of furry dead things


Doesn't really sound too uneven. Of course, both Lore and I are sure that we're carrying the lion's share of the load....

[Omniscient]

He replied, "I don't care if the house is clean. If you want it clean, clean it yourself."
First let us agree that this statement is entirely valid. Two people can have vastly differing views on what is clean and what is not clean. If you are a neat freak (and exactly 4% of those anal retentive folks realize and admit they are) and your SO isn't, there is no way you can fairly expect him/her to do chores up to your standards. As such if you want something done to your standard, do it yourself or accept your SOs way of doing it. If you think the living room needs to be dusted (which incidently is the most useless task a human can do) every week and he doesn't, that makes it your job to do it. Basically it boils down to whether or not one person is lazy, or if one person just feels comfortable with the way things are. Stereotypically, too many women scoff at being burdened (unfairly) with 100% of the housework, but then feel that they have every right to dictate how every little aspect of it is run. They set the standards of cleaning, and what chores need to get done, as well as how its decorated and assessorized. That isn't fair, if one person wants to impress their will on the home, then they need to be prepared to put in the effort that requires. Of course all this has its boundries, and if one person is a complete pig (and I wonder why you'd marry the pig if it bothers you so much) then he/she can't rest on that as an excuse to never do chores, but when it is a question of vacuuming every 2 months, or every week......the person who wants it done weekly, might as well just do it. Now this difference of opinion has the side effect of the person with the high standards claiming they did a massive amount of work (which they did), but its clear that a large majority of that work was not necessary. So, how much credit can you fairly take?

After saying all that, if a couple really needs to measure the time and effort they put into a relationship at all, the relationship isn't exactly great. So its time to examine the bigger problem.

I'll say this, perhaps if he could "remember" to rinse his icky facial hair, shaving cream scum and toothpaste out of the sink every morning, I might "remember" to be in the mood more that 2.5 nights a week.
I'll say this, it makes me nasueaous to listen to anyone using sex as leverage or holding out as punishment. Sex is a expression of love and lust, as well as a damn bit of fun. The second it turns into a tool in your immature power struggle, I think the passion in the relationship has officially burned out. I don't intend to ever be in that type of relationship, if I am I won't be staying that way.

Now, I don't want to put words in anyone's mouths, but many of you who have listed all the chores you do, while the hubby apparently does none, haven't mentioned who does all the yardwork and remodling work, and car care, etc. I hope you all take careful stock of both sides of the situation before you go off on a rant about your chores. While you complain that he/she doesn't realize how hard you're working, are you accurately gauging how hard they are too? If your going to start tallying points (an error in the first place) you'd better make certain you do it fairly if you expect your SO to accept your arguement and take it to heart. Compare it to PETA, while many might agree with some of their premises, the outlandish shit they pull makes most dismiss their claims as a whole, and frequently hold malice as a result. In the household, when one party exaggerates the situation, or takes no time to consider the other side before entering a fight they SO will most likely dismiss the entirety of the claim regardless of the few valid points you make. Think about it.

Now, since I'm just 24 I haven't dealt with this outside of the mom/dad dynamic. My parents deal with this fairly well considering. There is never any tallying of chores, or fights about how much I've done versus how much you've done. Dad works a shitload, and does all the yardwork, car care and has an endless list of home improvement chores. Because of the long hours and weekends the grass sometimes get too long, and the list of chores grows faster than anything gets checked off. Mom on the otherhand works full-time now, and for many years worked part-time while i was in school. She's a compulsive neat freak, and extremely high strung about the situation. Now, the chores were broken down into boy jobs and girl jobs (because thats just what each prefered doing) and I don't see anything wrong with that. They never fought about what chores needed to be done, and at most got stressed with themselves when they got behind on their share. Mom worked less, and did more chores, but made her workload heavy because she's an admitted neat freak. Dad worked more, and did his best to keep up on his half. So, while the chores didn't overlap much, they didn't impress their expectations on the other person. That arrangement worked out nicely. The conflict between my mom and I ended when she let me keep my room up to the standard I wanted it, not up to hers.

The way I indend to manage my relationships is similar to my parents. While the boy job/girl job arrangement isn't necessarily what I expect (not planning the suburban life for a while) I don't ever expect the housework sharing to have an effect on the rest of the relationship. You do your part, and have the strength of character to finish your own jobs without being pressured into it. Secondly, when the other's jobs don't get done how you'd like it, don't say a word and just trust that the partner hasn't had the time or inclination yet (which is ok), and if you're feeling generous do it for them to make their day.

[Athena]

My SO is a lot more picky about the general state of the house than I am. I tend to be messy - I leave clothes on the floor, and piles of books lay around. He likes to have all those things picked up and put away (or at least stacked neatly). On the other hand, back when he had his old apartment, he'd go months without cleaning the shower. My shower was always clean.

When we started co-habitating, we decided to take the easy route and hire a cleaning service. Come summer, we got the neighbor boys to mow our lawn. As far as I'm concerned seeing as we both work full time, it's the best way to go. Life is too short to spend 5 days a week working and 2 days a week cleaning, mowing, and picking up. I gotta have some free time in there sometime.

As far as the rest of the work, I tend to do all the cooking and grocery shopping. He lifts heavy things, kills bugs, and cleans up after me when I go to work and leave crumbs on the counter. I think in general my cooking & shopping is a lot more work than the "guy" stuff he does, but as he's been bugging me to give him grocery lists to pick up when needed, I can't really complain.

I've offered on many occasions to quit my job and be a housewife, in which case I would happily do all the cooking and cleaning, but so far no go. Damn, that sounds like heaven to me - stay home all day, do little home improvement projects, and cook a nice meal every day. I'd love that. Granted, we have no kids, and keeping the house for two adults isn't all that hard.

[BlackKnight]

Originally posted by Spider Woman
No, I wouldn't have, because in my (probably biased) opinion, I think that many people are prepared for careers by the training they take in college, and by internships, and even stuff they see on television.

Well, yes (although this particular college student sometimes wonders how much college truly prepares him ... but I digress). But don't you think that doing chores as a child, having to take Home Economics classes in junior high, direct tutelage from a parent, and other factors prepare children for being a house-spouse? Not completely, of course, just as no college could ever completely prepare its students for careers.

... because so many people take the work that women have traditionally done for granted, because many of them did it so efficiently and invisibly that the people they did it for had no idea what all was involved.

I can honestly say that nobody that I know takes traditional women's work for granted any more than they take traditional men's work for granted. Of course, I admit that I don't know very many people, and that I might just be meeting a non-representative sample of people.

I just find the idea that so many people take traditionally women's work for granted foreign, like something I've read about in a book but never experienced in real life. I'm not saying that there aren't such people, only that I haven't met them.

BlackKnight, we need to talk agisofia into coming from Vegas to the Central MN Dopefest so you can meet your future intended. :D

Sounds like a good plan to me, except for the fact that I can't make it. I have no way of getting there (except for my experimental Giant Catapult [TM]). :(

Omniscient:
I like your post.

[BlackKnight]

Originally posted by agisofia
BlackKnight, will you marry me?

Only if you marry me back! :)

[Shodan]

I work full time; my wife part time. Two kids. I am well into the latter half of my life (ahem) and earn most of our household income. For the first part of our marriage (i.e. pre-kids) the opposite was true, or we were even.

We sat down early in the marriage and divided up all the chores. We have essentially stuck to that ever since (18 years). She taught me how to cook (I am actually better at it than her by now) and I cook on weekends or when we entertain. I do the bathrooms, vacuum the upstairs, do about half the yard work. She does the laundry, cooks during the week, does half the yard work, and the kids do the rest.

People, as has been mentioned before, have different standards for housekeeping. Our way of dealing with this is an iron-clad rule. Anyone who redoes a task after the other spouse has done it is considered to have volunteered to do the task the next time.

Most men need to contribute more to the household. Most women need to realize that what your mother told you about housework can be wrong. It doesn't have to be perfect, and nobody is keeping score.

And don't clean my desk, damn it. I know where everything is, so don't move it.

[vix]

I've recently moved, and I've gone from living alone (bliss!) in an inexpensive city, to living with two of my male friends in an expensive city. I am also faced with the issue that others have raised - what to do when folks who live together have different standards of cleanliness? Unfortunately for me, I'm the one who seems to want the place to be very clean and tidy. I sort of decided that although it would really annoy me to be the only one cleaning, it would also really annoy me to live in a dirty/messy house. My solution: I'd rather be annoyed in a clean house. Fortunately, one of my housemates is very willing to help clean. (The other has been away a lot; time will tell.) Another issue: helpful roommate has a cat, and is responsible for all care of the cat. Unfortunatly, he only really wanted to change the litter box once a week. That didn't seem like enough to me, since I used to clean much more frequently when I had cat(s). So we compromised to twice a week. I guess it's all about compromise.

[Spider Woman]

Now, I don't want to put words in anyone's mouths, but many of you who have listed all the chores you do, while the hubby apparently does none, haven't mentioned who does all the yardwork and remodling work, and car care, etc.

More than one person mentioned that she does either yardwork, or is responsible for the care of her own vehicle. The friends of mine at work who had this unequal type of relationship usually ended up making the appointment for both spouses' vehicles for tune-ups, etc., although a few of them had married home garage mechanics.

Some people divide the home chores in the manner Omniscient describes: lawn care, carpentry and mechanics to the husband and everything else to the wife. If that seems equitable to those people, that is fine.

I have NEVER been a neat freak, as anyone who comes to my house unannounced will attest to. My first ex-husband spent most of his time after work in front of the television, and if I had done that also, we wouldn't have been able to wade through the mess.

Omniscient then goes on to sayI'll say this, it makes me nasueaous to listen to anyone using sex as leverage or holding out as punishment. Sex is a expression of love and lust, as well as a damn bit of fun. The second it turns into a tool in your immature power struggle, I think the passion in the relationship has officially burned out. I don't intend to ever be in that type of relationship, if I am I won't be staying that way

I myself have never used sex for leverage, but I have often been too damn tired and depressed to be very receptive to sexual overtures. That could be another way of looking at what the person you quoted was talking about.

Omniscient, for someone who has only observed your parents' labor division, you seem to have a lot to say about this, and use fairly strong language: Back this fucking crap wagon up. . . for someone who has not dealt with this outside the mom/dad dynamic. Does this touch a nerve for some reason?

Why would a 24 year old who has never lived with anyone other than his parents feel that he has the right to call two pages worth of posts a "crap wagon?" Do you really believe you are omniscient?

[Engineer Don]

How can people not talk about this before they get married? Every family I have ever met handles this differently, both in theory and in practice. It is important to know if you want to be happy.

My wife's family was a whole lot like mine in that if something needs to be done, you do it. If one person thinks it needs to be done, and the other doesn't, you look at how busy each person is, and where there is slack, and assign it or drop it accordingly. There is a limit to how much can be done in a day (kids change this), so sometimes things get left undone a while. I also see it slow as our parents get older, but the same basic aggreement holds in that they both still do the work they decide to do. We also learn to do things better by sharing experiences, and no tasks get dropped if one person is out of town for a while.

What I really have trouble picturing is one person sitting in front of the TV while the other is working in the next room. If they both went to work that day, how could this be considered fair? If one spouse had a much longer workday, or is sick or something then you cut them a little slack, but what sort of neanderthal (male or female) would assign all the work around the house by gender? Why not interest, or talent, or available time, or anything other than what sort of tackle a person has in their clothes?

This is just bizzare thinking. How is it expressed?
"You have tits, so you are oviously better at cleaning. I got dangling bits, so I am skilled with power tools. I watch TV now. You work. Uggh."

That is as silly as needing a penis in order to be a priest. "You have to have one so you can avoid using it." Right. Got it. Perfectly logical. Male horses got big ones, so they would make better priests then, right?

[wolfman]

Well I think attitudes are changing. I have never met one Guy in my whole life(26 years) who complained that his wife wasn't keeping the house clean enough, and quite honestly I assumed it was mostly a creation of drama. I think the biggest problem is perceptions of nessasary. Unsanitary is bad, but clutter isn't nessasarily, for example, raw chicken in sink, should be thrown out, magazines on coffee table are fine.

Here's a serious question for people who were talking about old stereotypes. How many females have decided to clean the house because someone was comming over? And how many times did the male person in the house say "who cares what it looks like, they're our friends"?(something I have seen dozens of times) I see more women contributing to the stereotype that it is a woman's job to keep the house clean, becuase they act like it is a failure on their part if its not spotless, then I see men. Doing 90% of a job that the other person doesn't see as required doesn't earn you points, because the other person just sees that they now have to do 10% of something stupid.

One of the coolest living situations I was ever in involved 12 friends living in 4 apartments next to each other. We just had kind of an unspoken barter system where people would do favors for the other people based on what we enjoyed doing. I like working on cars, computers, fixing stereos and the like. All of the stuff me and my two roomates did(we were the only three guys, the other 9 were chicks), carrying heavy stuff, fixing things, snaking drains, was all of the traditionally manly stuff. Some of the girls would decide to cook everybody dinner, or clean our apartment while we were gone. There was no formal declaration of duties, people just kind of did what was nessasary for the community and they liked(well I didn't like snaking drains, but I didn't really mind to much which is why I ended up doing it), so everybody was happy.
The next semester one of the guys and girls moved in together and suddenly sparks started flying. The girl complained that he never cleaned up. Well no shit, when we had an apartment when it got to a really bad point, then we cleaned, but someone else always cleaned it up long before then. As soon as they were formalized into a normal living arangement, the girl assumed that sudenly cleaning was going to be a high prority for him, even though she had said many times that she enjoyed cleaning, and wanted thing spotless. In fact he was really annoyed that she cleaned so often, but he didn't mention anything to her because he thought is was important to her, he already felt he was compromising by letting her clean up so often. Needless to say it didn't work out. I guess the point which I lost a while ago is, don't assume things are become formalized just because they become normal, and just because you think something is important doesn't mean it is.

[doreen]

Omnisicient said :

[/quote]I'll say this, it makes me nasueaous to listen to anyone using sex as leverage or holding out as punishment. Sex is a expression of love and lust, as well as a damn bit of fun. The second it turns into a tool in your immature power struggle, I think the passion in the relationship has officially burned out. I don't intend to ever be in that type of relationship, if I am I won't be staying that way.
[/quote]

Yes, sex is an expression of love and lust, but how likely is it that someone feels either of these things if they're angry, exhausted and feeling taken advantage of? I'm making a wild generalization here, but I think men tend to have an easier time separating sex from everything else than women do.To use a example of a day that gets me pissed, if I get up in the morning, take the kids to school,work all day,pick kids up from afterschool,leave one home with my husband while I take the other to some activity,get home around 8:30-9pm to find that my husband hasn't made sure homework was done or cooked dinner ( or anything else except watch TV),make sure the homework is done while he cooks,do some laundry and get ready for the next day, when I finally fall into bed, I want sleep, not sex.I get a few days in a row like that, I'm so mad I wouldn't be interested in sex even if I wasn't tired. On the other hand, if I was ever able to get my husband to follow that schedule for a few days, he'd be mad as hell, but I don't think it would affect his sexual desires at all.

[Omniscient]

Does this touch a nerve for some reason?
Forgive me, I don't have a very permissive attitude when it comes to man bashing. Guess in your eyes that means I have issues huh?


Why would a 24 year old who has never lived with anyone other than his parents...
Back up a bit there Spidey. I said I was 24, and only had my parents as a reference to clarify that I was single and haven't had a string of marriages to speak on. I have in fact lived in quite varied, and complicated situations. In college I dealt with no less than 20 different male and female roommates excluding the 50 frat guys in the house, so I know a little about managing chores and understanding male vs. female opinions on several topics. Between 1 roommate dorm life, 1-2 roommate frat life, 3 roommate apartment life and a house with 7 guys and 6 girls sharing 2 bathrooms, 1 kitchen and a living room, I'd say I have plenty of right to speak my mind. Sorry if no ones ever questioned if you might be being unfair, but when I see a one sided arguement, I'm not going to pat you on the head and tell you everythings ok.

[porcupine]

Originally posted by Engineer Don
How can people not talk about this before they get married?

You'd be amazed at the things people don't talk about before getting married. I have a friend who didn't talk to his (now ex)wife about whether she wanted kids. He did, and assumed she did, too. She didn't. Frankly, I was amazed when he told me this, because he's very intelligent in many ways. Now, I tease him about whether he asks the woman on a first date "I was wondering if you'd mind having my baby." He told me that once he brought up having kids on a first date. I said, "There wasn't a second date, right?" Of course I was right.

[Omniscient]

FTR, I never meant to imply that you should always be in the mood for sex. It is rational to assume that these types of domestic issues would numb the desire in the bedroom, and thats acceptable (but I'd damn well hope you have some motivation to fix the problem), but I am stressing that whne you start vocalizing these feelings as the reason your not in the mood, and possibly being straightforward in saying you need to clean in order to get sex is the lowest level a relationship can reach.

[Spider Woman]

Omniscient, you say:
when I see a one sided arguement, I'm not going to pat you on the head and tell you everythings ok.

While it's true that I offered my perspective on what how some males take advantage of a situation, not every poster agreed with that. I spoke from my experience, personal and observed.

Are you saying that you don't believe it every happens? Do you believe that all men are perfect paragons who, when both spouses are working, contribute fully to the childcare and running of a household?

As you can see if you carefully read the posts on this thread, there are several men who do try their best to do this, and I and others express our admiration for them.

So where is the one-sided argument? Should somebody be sticking up for the poor guy who wants to come home and vegetate on the couch while his spouse, who has also been working all day, cooks the meals and cares for the kids? In the area where I live, this does happen. I am not talking about the neatness of the house here. I am talking about guys who refuse to change a diaper, wash a dish, cook a meal or run any laundry because they STILL believe that is woman's work. And it doesn't matter if they do all the outside work, because if he still has time to lay around and watch her work, it ain't equal.

You saySorry if no ones ever questioned if you might be being unfair. . .

How can you question it when all you know is what I told you about myself, and my friends? Are you questioning my slant on things because you don't think it is possible for things like this to happen?

Hopefully, because things are changing (slower around here than in some places, it seems), this will be something that you and people of your age won't have to deal with. But that doesn't mean it never happened to anyone.

[tracer]

Men are from Mars, women are from Pluto.

[tatertot]

...there is no need to hold a telethon for MisterTot and his little guy. I wasn't 100% serious when I made that remark, sometimes you get so damned frustrated and you say things that might be misconstrued.

Maybe I'm deluding myself, but it seems that all marriages have issues, this is ours. We came into this marriage with our own baggage, and frankly, I don't see it all disappearing overnight. And what worked for us 7, 5 or even 1 year ago, might not work today. We've both changed a lot during our time together, and constant readjustment is needed to keep us happy as a couple.

Omni, I appreciate your points, but frankly, I don't see any man-bashing going on in here. MisterTot bashing, maybe, but he's a big boy, he can handle it. ;) I think it's been very clear that each of us is talking only about our own situations.

And sometimes bitching about housework is just bitching about housework. In my case, I don't think it is a sign of some underlying weakness in our relationship. A marriage can be strong and still have problems. In our case, I think it's part of the growth process, and that in the end our marriage will be strengthened by figuring out how to overcome these problems.

[lee]

We both work. He does the housework and yardwork. It seems to make him happy. I do things that would make his back hurt, like mopping the kitchen floor.


I am very lucky.