Why don't real professional chefs use super heavy duty "professional" cookware?

[astro]

On the few occasions I've been in the kitchen areas of fine dining restaurants there's no super thick Colophon type cookware, or top end Wusthof or Henckel knives. It's all aluminum institutional type stuff, and lots of white poly handled institutional type chef's knives.

Why don't pro chefs use these implements that are touted to be real "pro' cooking tools?

[WhyNot]

Too heavy? Seriously, if you're slinging around dozens of pans all day long with loads of food in them, in a two hundred degree kitchen, that's got to be a hell of a workout. My 15 inch (yeah, 15- wanna make somethin' of it?) skillet must weigh well over 4 pounds empty, and while I love it for the one meal a day I make in it, I wouldn't want to use it all day long. And it's only mid-grade. Those thick bottomed "professional grade" pans would be even heavier in that size! Their stoves get much hotter than mine, and are better at even heating, so having a big thick bottom to absorb heat and release it evenly isn't as critical.

The handle of a knife doesn't say nearly so much about it's quality as housewears stores want you to think. A plastic handle again, lightens the knife, and as long as the blade holds a sharp edge and is honed often, I'd want a lighter knife if I used it a lot (cleavers excepted, of course.)

The other thing about knives is that there are "Kitchen knives" which only the idjit who forgot his use, and then there are personal knives, which you bring in when your shift starts, defend with your life while you're working, and take home at the end of the night. Knives, so my father tells me, are a personal item on the order of a tampon or jockstrap - you do NOT touch someone else's knives at work! You might only be seeing the knives owned by the restaurant that aren't actually favored by the cooks. (This paragraph may be outdated, as it's based on my dad's stories working in kitchens in the '70s.)

[GaryM]

Can't say about the pots & pans, but at the cafeteria at my workplace they rent their knives. They are replaced with freshly sharpened ones every week. Old ones picked up, sharpened, and brought back next week. Perhaps not the same ones, but another set at least.

I've seen the chefs on Iron Chef, and Iron Chef America opening sets of knives they've brought with them.

[D_Odds]

They're very expensive, and restaurants need lots of cookware, plus cookware gets banged up and abused and needs to be replaced.

Instead, they go to restaurant supply stores, many which are open to the public. Excellent cookware much cheaper than department store prices. Unlike the Caphalon and other high-end cookware, it is built for durability and function, but not necessarily for show. Those white-handled knives are excellent (I have many at home), and unlike the Wustof and Henkel's knives (which I also have), they're inexpensive and dishwasher-safe.

[gigi]

My 15 inch (yeah, 15- wanna make somethin' of it?) skillet must weigh well over 4 pounds emptyMmmm, nice...cookware.

[BMalion]

Too heavy? Seriously, if you're slinging around dozens of pans all day long with loads of food in them, in a two hundred degree kitchen, that's got to be a hell of a workout. My 15 inch (yeah, 15- wanna make somethin' of it?) skillet must weigh well over 4 pounds empty, and while I love it for the one meal a day I make in it, I wouldn't want to use it all day long. And it's only mid-grade. Those thick bottomed "professional grade" pans would be even heavier in that size! Their stoves get much hotter than mine, and are better at even heating, so having a big thick bottom to absorb heat and release it evenly isn't as critical.

The handle of a knife doesn't say nearly so much about it's quality as housewears stores want you to think. A plastic handle again, lightens the knife, and as long as the blade holds a sharp edge and is honed often, I'd want a lighter knife if I used it a lot (cleavers excepted, of course.)

The other thing about knives is that there are "Kitchen knives" which only the idjit who forgot his use, and then there are personal knives, which you bring in when your shift starts, defend with your life while you're working, and take home at the end of the night. Knives, so my father tells me, are a personal item on the order of a tampon or jockstrap - you do NOT touch someone else's knives at work! You might only be seeing the knives owned by the restaurant that aren't actually favored by the cooks. (This paragraph may be outdated, as it's based on my dad's stories working in kitchens in the '70s.)

Former chef speaking. This answer nailed it spot on, especially about the knives.

[Kevbo]

A point not mentioned thus far:

Health departments tend to be very picky about what is used in a resteraunt kitchen. Those white plastic handled knives can be soaked in sanitizer and have minimal crevases for "stuff" to hide in. Wood handles would probably be right out

[BMalion]

A point not mentioned thus far:

Health departments tend to be very picky about what is used in a resteraunt kitchen. Those white plastic handled knives can be soaked in sanitizer and have minimal crevases for "stuff" to hide in. Wood handles would probably be right out

Wrong. Wood is actually more sanitary than plastic. Have you ever cooked in a restaurant? Or given health Dept seminars? I have.

[Rhiannon8404]

Wrong. Wood is actually more sanitary than plastic. Have you ever cooked in a restaurant? Or given health Dept seminars? I have.
I have always believed this, but honestly, not sure why. Could you explain it?

[Argent Towers]

On the few occasions I've been in the kitchen areas of fine dining restaurants there's no super thick Colophon type cookware, or top end Wusthof or Henckel knives.

You're thinking of Calphalon. (www.calphalon.com). Colophon is the name of a poster here.

[FairyChatMom]

Well then, since there are apparently experts here - my daughter asked me to get her a good set of knives. She's not a professional cook by any means, but the knives she has are pretty much crappy.

Recommendations for good, not obscenely expensive knives for her?

[wolfman]

A lady I know who owned a restaurant(not high-end professional, more of a neighborhood kind of place) said that she had to buy the cheepest stuff otherwise it would walk off. Her opinion was that cooking has a huge turnover, and that cooks were so high strung they would take stuff out of spite when they knew they going to be leaving.

[gigi]

Well then, since there are apparently experts here - my daughter asked me to get her a good set of knives. She's not a professional cook by any means, but the knives she has are pretty much crappy.

Recommendations for good, not obscenely expensive knives for her?
What's the price range you're going for? Would $200 be obscene?

[WhyNot]

Well then, since there are apparently experts here - my daughter asked me to get her a good set of knives. She's not a professional cook by any means, but the knives she has are pretty much crappy.

Recommendations for good, not obscenely expensive knives for her?
I am not an expert, but I know what I like, and I LOVE this set by Cuisinart. (http://www.amazon.com/Cuisinart-Ultra-14-Piece-Knife-Natural/dp/B00008DHOL/sr=1-2/qid=1163110779/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2/102-3726372-0803316?ie=UTF8&s=home-garden) Granted, I paid about half that, but I didn't get the steak knives with it. For me, they are the perfect compromise of weight and heft and balance and all that stuff that I'd like to pretend I know about but really mean, "Hey, this feels nice in my hand and doesn't go all wobbly and stuff!" The edge is good and sturdy and just now after a year and a half I'm thinking about going to get them sharpened. I admit, I used to be better about honing them before each use when I first got them and was all enamoured, but I've gotten lazy about that, and I can tell the difference. Alton would be so ashamed of me. *hangs head*

And they're awfully pretty on my countertop! :D

[bump]

The white-handled ones are typically Forshner or Dexter-Russell, and are specifically NSF certified. That's probably the reason they're used... that, and they're not too expensive.

They make them with different colored handles so restaraunts can implement a food handling system so that knives don't spread contamination.

http://www.dexter-russell.com/PDF/colorhandles05.pdf

I have a hard time believing that wood is more sanitary that plastic. Wood has uncountable little nicks and crannies for bacteria to hide in, while plastic is relatively smooth. Plus, you can usually use more caustic cleaners on plastic without degrading it, while wood knife handles go straight to hell if you wash them in a household dishwasher, much less an institutional one.

There's a rule in homebrewing that you only use stainless or plastic after you boil your wort, because they're the only ones that you can get sanitized well. I can't imagine that things would be different in a commercial kitchen.

[bump]

As for nice knives, these Mercer Genesis (http://www.cutlery.com/t3/t11t22t3d.shtml) are very nice.

I have a few of them, and they seem just as nice as others' Henckels and Wusthof knives, only they cost quite a bit less. At any rate, they're razor sharp and keep an edge pretty nicely.

[gigi]

I like the Henckels ones I have; this site (http://www.cutleryandmore.com/prodlist.asp?BrandID=2&FamilyID=12&src=Google&cam=Henckels&sub=Henckels+Knife+Set&kw=henckels%20knife%20set) is throwing in a free wood block if you spend over $100, and there are discounts right now. They have a variety of other brands too, at reasonable discounts.

[Cheesesteak]

I have a hard time believing that wood is more sanitary that plastic.I've heard it said for wood cutting boards that they are more sanitary. There are compounds in wood that inhibit bacterial growth. Also (this is my personal take on it) water/debris will collect in the small cuts from your knife, wood is porous and will wick that moisture away, distributing it over a greater volume and letting it dry faster. Plastic is nonporous, the water will sit in those cuts and allow bacterial growth.


Wustof and Henkel knives are very nice and quite high quality. But, like many high quality things, they are old school in design, and take some care and feeding. If you beat on them, don't use the steel properly every time you use them, and don't sharpen them when necessary, they will suck toes.

[StarvingButStrong]

I asked for a 'nice' set of knives last year with unfortunate results, so a word of warning:

Do NOT get the cheapie sets that have a sort of ground in serations along one side of each blade.

Supposedly they help sliced food 'release' from the blade, but what really happens is that the amount of 'drag' is drastically different between the two sides. You have to conscious battle to keep cutting straight or everything you slice ends up as a shallow arc. :mad:


I'm going to throw out all the knifes (well, I'll keep the steak knives, the 'drag' rarely matters in cutting up your steak) and restock the fairly nice block with decent knives.

[gigi]

they will suck toes.You say that like it's a bad thing.

[StarvingButStrong]

Should have said -- the rotten knives are from Chicago Cuttlery.

[silenus]

I second the Henckels. We have several (http://www.cutleryandmore.com/details.asp?SKU=10624), and the wife is making a point of giving me a new one every Christmas.

[Ferret Herder]

There's a rule in homebrewing that you only use stainless or plastic after you boil your wort, because they're the only ones that you can get sanitized well. I can't imagine that things would be different in a commercial kitchen.
Ah, but there's also a rule in homebrewing that eventually you have to replace your plastic gear (especially buckets), as sooner or later you're gonna get microscratches that you won't get clean. Come to think of it, I suspect that's what caused my last infected batch.

[Stranger On A Train]

I've worked in a few kitchens, from chain bar & grill joints to high end steak joints. The common factor on cooking equipment has always been durability and inexpensiveness. Cooks, like miners, merchant marines, and other professional thieves, will make off with whatever isn't nailed down, so either you buy something too heavy to rip off, or too cheap to be worth it (or at least won't break the bank when you have to replace it weekly). Also, while you may have one set of cookware at home, a medium sized commercial kitchen will have the equivilent of a dozen or more. There's also a signficant difference in the way you cook and clean up in a commerical kitchen versus home; at home, you might use nonstick cookware that lets you get away with a little squirt of oil and survives a few years of daily use in your home dishwasher; in a commercial kitchen, between the abuse it gets in use and the scalding, caustic washer environment the "nonstick" coating won't last more than a few hours. Don't want it to stick? Heat up the skillet, give it a couple big squirts of oil or butter and keep it moving. (Even those "lo-cal" meals you get eating out aren't especially skimpy on the calories.)

With regard to knives and cutting boards, the basic points have already been made; it's cheaper to buy cheap knives and replace them often than expensive, hard to sharpen knives that get stolen or broken. Most high grade prep cooks and sous chefs have their own personal knife roll, anyway, and those fuckers will shiv you faster than a Folsom con if you so much as touch it without permission. The NSF grade knives with soft plastic handles don't slip and are easy on the eyes of a health and sanitation inspector, and while wood handles and cutting boards may well be more germ-resistant than plastic, every kitchen I've ever worked in had those big slabs of UHMW cutting surfaces all over the place; they're easy to clean and bleach, they don't crack or peel, and they're about as close to indestructible as depleted uranium armor.

Should have said -- the rotten knives are from Chicago Cuttlery.Not sure what you mean; the bottom grade of CC knives--especially the serrated ones--are consumer-grade crap, but that's true of Henckels and Wusthof as well. Chicago Cutlery's better lines of knives are quite decent, and they're one of the few makers left of good carbon steel kitchen cutlery, if that's your bag. Their high carbon stainless--essentially 440C steel--is much easier to sharpen than the molybendium alloys found in most German knives, and while I won't claim that they make as good a knife as Global or Henckels Five Star, they're quite decent for a home kitchen.

Most of the so-called professional cookware you see at Sur La Table and the like is massively overpriced gadgetry that would last only minutes in a commerical kitchen, either because it isn't robust enough to hold up or because it takes way too long to use and clean up. Cooks use a few basic tools that are simple, durable, reliable, and easy to wash along with a lot of hard-learned technique. This, more than anything, is what seperates a commercial cook from a cooking enthusiast.

Stranger

[GingerOfTheNorth]

We have a set of Cutco knives of which I am very fond. They don't ever need sharpening.

[ThisSpaceForRent]

Been a cook....chef...manager in restaurants for 30+ years.

It all comes down to the bottom line; What will hold up the best in a commercial setting. Large pots, pans, roasters etc are VERY costly. Typically I would purchase for function and durability, not for looks or a name.

As for knives, I agree, in better houses cooks and chefs use their own, personal knives and DO NOT touch mine...I have a pretty extensive mixed set of Henckels and Wustofs. The are now resigned to home use as I am now in management.

As for sanitation and health department requirements BMalion is partially correct, they TYPE of wood is very important...maple is great and very sanitary, though most Health departments still prefer Polycarbonate cutting boards.

FairyChatMom...I would start with 3 good knives for her; A 10" chef knife, a 6" chefs/utility knife (my favorite) and a 2.5" pareing knife....you could get all three in a good quality for around 100-125 usd.

For the record...I would NEVER put any (other than table knife) in a dishwasher...never ever...the chemicals are VERY caustic.

tsfr

[ThisSpaceForRent]

Dang Stranger looks like we are on the same page on this one...hey, maybe we even slung hash together...LOL

tsfr

[Stranger On A Train]

We have a set of Cutco knives of which I am very fond. They don't ever need sharpening.To each his or her own, but...I have a friend who has a set of these, and I just can't get over how totally wrong they are in every concievable way. It's not just that they're serrated--which in my mind should be a capital crime for anything except a scalloped edge on a bread knife--but the shape of the handles, the profile and balance, the length of the chef's knife (which seems to be just slightly shorter than a broadsword), and the clearly soft, low-grade stainless steel just grates on me like a herd of kindergardeners with kazoos. The fact that the smaller blades are all serrated makes them all but useless for fine work like delicate peeling, cutting soft vegetables, and fine slicing, and the chef's knife is too unwieldy for comfortable mincing and chopping. When I go over to her house to cook, I have to bring my own set of knives.

Sorry; I don't mean to rag. I'm just kind of taken aback that anyone really likes these things. I guess it's whatever you're used to using.

Stranger

[Pseudopod]

Speaking from my not very extensive experience, sometimes the "professional" equipment just isn't the best you can get. I work in a kitchen, and we have 3 large knives that the staff share (there are never more than 5 people on staff, and usually only 2 in the kitchen). One of the knives is a very expensive Henckel, one came in a set for, like, 40 bucks and the third is a big ol' wooden handled one of indeterminate origin and age. The Henckel is the worst of the bunch. It doesn't stay sharp, the handle isn't shaped well and it just doesn't feel nice to cut with. The cheap one is pretty good, but the big wooden handled one is fantastic. It glides along the food, and even though I carelessly nicked myself while washing it once, I still like it. My boss agrees.

[FairyChatMom]

We have a set of Cutco knives of which I am very fond. They don't ever need sharpening.I've got a set of Cutco that I bought in 1975. I spent just over $200, and besides the knives and utensils, I got steak knives and a cutting board and a pair of scissors and an electric fry pan and a cookbook... I've had 2 knives and a spatula replaced free when they broke. I looked for a set for my kid, and I couldn't get half of what I've got for twice what I paid... Yeah, inflation.

I don't mind spending a couple hundred for her since I want her to have some that will last. I appreciate all the links - I'll study them.

And I agree on the Chicago Cutlery - I got a set for free - and they're worth less than that. Ick!

[Oslo Ostragoth]

And I agree on the Chicago Cutlery - I got a set for free - and they're worth less than that. Ick!
Do they make cheapos? Because I have Walnut Tradition (http://www.amazon.com/Chicago-Cutlery-Walnut-Tradition-10-Piece/dp/B00005AM7T/sr=1-28/qid=1163126020/ref=sr_1_28/104-8260211-7239107?ie=UTF8&s=kitchen) knives that I like just fine. (And that is a very good price - I bought mine piece-by-piece and probably spent three times that.)

[GingerOfTheNorth]

To each his or her own, but...I have a friend who has a set of these, and I just can't get over how totally wrong they are in every concievable way. It's not just that they're serrated--which in my mind should be a capital crime for anything except a scalloped edge on a bread knife--but the shape of the handles, the profile and balance, the length of the chef's knife (which seems to be just slightly shorter than a broadsword), and the clearly soft, low-grade stainless steel just grates on me like a herd of kindergardeners with kazoos. The fact that the smaller blades are all serrated makes them all but useless for fine work like delicate peeling, cutting soft vegetables, and fine slicing, and the chef's knife is too unwieldy for comfortable mincing and chopping. When I go over to her house to cook, I have to bring my own set of knives.

Sorry; I don't mean to rag. I'm just kind of taken aback that anyone really likes these things. I guess it's whatever you're used to using.

StrangerNot all of the knives are serrated. To each his own, I guess. I used to have Henckels, and prefer these.

We also have Calphalon and Le Creuset pots and pans. Too physically heavy for industrial use, I'd say.

[Barbarian]

Do NOT get the cheapie sets that have a sort of ground in serations along one side of each blade.

If you've got time, you could probably turn those into a decent set of knives. Get yourself a coarse whetstone and just grind those serrations out. (Have I done this to a pair of knives? You bet!) Or you could just bring them to a sharpener and ask him to give your knives a haircut. Judging from how much metal they remove when dealing with knives I've used in restaurants, that will not be a problem. (But sir, this was my cleaver and you've turned it into a paring knife with a very large handle!)

I've got two rules about knives: 1) When choosing a knife, I'm always concerned about balance and heft (how it fits in my hand). What suits me may not suit you.

2) There's an inverse relationship between how long a blade will keep an edge and how easy it is to sharpen and hone. Soft steel won't hold an edge long, but you can sharpen it yourself with ease. My Wusthofs and Henckels are a bitch and a half to sharpen, but they'll hold their edges for several years of home use.

[Barbarian]

Do NOT get the cheapie sets that have a sort of ground in serations along one side of each blade.

If you've got time, you could probably turn those into a decent set of knives. Get yourself a coarse whetstone and just grind those serrations out. (Have I done this to a pair of knives? You bet!) Or you could just bring them to a sharpener and ask him to give your knives a haircut. Judging from how much metal they remove when dealing with knives I've used in restaurants, that will not be a problem. (But sir, this was my cleaver and you've turned it into a paring knife with a very large handle!)

I've got two rules about knives: 1) When choosing a knife, I'm always concerned about balance and heft (how it fits in my hand). What suits me may not suit you.

2) There's an inverse relationship between how long a blade will keep an edge and how easy it is to sharpen and hone. Soft steel won't hold an edge long, but you can sharpen it yourself with ease. My Wusthofs and Henckels are a bitch and a half to sharpen, but they hold their edges for several years of home use.

[Eva Luna]

Do they make cheapos? Because I have Walnut Tradition (http://www.amazon.com/Chicago-Cutlery-Walnut-Tradition-10-Piece/dp/B00005AM7T/sr=1-28/qid=1163126020/ref=sr_1_28/104-8260211-7239107?ie=UTF8&s=kitchen) knives that I like just fine. (And that is a very good price - I bought mine piece-by-piece and probably spent three times that.)

Yeah, Chicago Cutlery makes cheapos, (http://www.amazon.com/Chicago-Cutlery-Classic-Chef-14-Piece/dp/B000278BQG/sr=8-5/qid=1163129831/ref=pd_bbs_5/002-0938719-0016023?ie=UTF8&s=home-garden) alright. But I've also got a set of the Walnut Tradition, which I like just fine.

(Anyone in here want to recomment a sharpener for them?)

[The Swan]

If you've got time, you could probably turn those into a decent set of knives. Get yourself a coarse whetstone and just grind those serrations out. (Have I done this to a pair of knives? You bet!)

I was under the impression that Starving was speaking of granton edges. If that is the case, you certainly don't want to try to grind them out.

[Stranger On A Train]

Dang Stranger looks like we are on the same page on this one...hey, maybe we even slung hash together...LOLNot unless you did so in KC. I think this probably falls more in the line of "great minds think alike," or more probably that all kitchens are exactly the same, only different.

One good point that you made which deserves repeating:FairyChatMom...I would start with 3 good knives for her; A 10" chef knife, a 6" chefs/utility knife (my favorite) and a 2.5" pareing knife....you could get all three in a good quality for around 100-125 usd.One example of these three general classes of knife, plus a cheap serrated bread knife, should serve for 95% of all kitchen cutlery needs. There's no reason to buy a 12 piece block of knifes with three different sizes of utility knife, et cetera. If you're doing something special, like sushi or delicate trim work you might want a specialty knife for that, but those four should set up anyone quite well. One additional item you might want to get is a good honing stone, especially a diamond hone. Keeping the blades sharp is the best way to avoid accidents.

Do they make cheapos? Because I have Walnut Tradition (http://www.amazon.com/Chicago-Cutlery-Walnut-Tradition-10-Piece/dp/B00005AM7T/sr=1-28/qid=1163126020/ref=sr_1_28/104-8260211-7239107?ie=UTF8&s=kitchen) knives that I like just fine. (And that is a very good price - I bought mine piece-by-piece and probably spent three times that.)Yeah, Chicago Cutlery, like virtually all of the other kitchen cutlery makers, has a bargin basement line that isn't worth the effort it takes to pick it up off the shelf. Cutlery is an investment in good cooking technique; don't buy it at the local Wal-Mart.

Stranger

[Eva Luna]

Keeping the blades sharp is the best way to avoid accidents.



Yeah, that's actually indirectly how I ended up with my current set rather than the hand-me-down crappy set I had years ago; I sliced a chunk off the tip of my finger while using a dull knife to cut an onion, and not long afterwards saw an interview with violinist Nadja Salerno-Sonnenberg, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nadja_Salerno-Sonnenberg) in which she talked about how she had almost ended her music career by trying to slice an onion with a dull knife. After comparing the cost of a decent set of knives to the cost of an ER visit and rehab, I decided to spring for the knives.

[StarvingButStrong]

Yeah, Chicago Cutlery makes cheapos, (http://www.amazon.com/Chicago-Cutlery-Classic-Chef-14-Piece/dp/B000278BQG/sr=8-5/qid=1163129831/ref=pd_bbs_5/002-0938719-0016023?ie=UTF8&s=home-garden) alright.

I do believe that is the exact set 'gracing' my counter. $30? Gee, thanks, Sis-in-law.

At least, for that price I won't feel guilty tossing most of them into the trash.

[DoctorJ]

One example of these three general classes of knife, plus a cheap serrated bread knife, should serve for 95% of all kitchen cutlery needs. There's no reason to buy a 12 piece block of knifes with three different sizes of utility knife, et cetera.
Hell, the chef's knife and the bread knife probably make up 90%. They certainly do in my kitchen. I got a 6-pc set of the cheap Henkels about eight years ago, and an 8" Global chef's about five years ago. I haven't bought another knife since, and I can't remember the last time I used something other than the Global or the bread knife.

(I am thinking about adding a nice santoku knife to the arsenal.)

[Oslo Ostragoth]

But I've also got a set of the Walnut Tradition, which I like just fine.

(Anyone in here want to recomment a sharpener for them?)
Mine are probably 10 - 15 years old now, and the honing steel isn't really doing much any more. Probably time for professional sharpening, or, I suppose, I could risk damage and try a stone on them. Anybody care to suggest an angle?

[WhyNot]

Mine are probably 10 - 15 years old now, and the honing steel isn't really doing much any more. Probably time for professional sharpening, or, I suppose, I could risk damage and try a stone on them. Anybody care to suggest an angle?
20 degrees.

[Stranger On A Train]

Mine are probably 10 - 15 years old now, and the honing steel isn't really doing much any more. Probably time for professional sharpening, or, I suppose, I could risk damage and try a stone on them. Anybody care to suggest an angle?20-23 degrees is generally the recommended angle for kitchen cutlery (aside from a cleaver, which should be something more like 35 degrees).

For the most part, a "honing steel" doesn't really do anything. The general explanation is that it "aligns the edge", i.e. it keeps a wire edge straight, but in all honesty it does nothing useful that a good couple of swipes on an extra-fine grit stone wouldn't take care of. (Some "steels" do actually sharpen, but a flat stone is generally better.) And for the most part "professional sharpening" is anything but. A medium/fine grit stone is adequate to keep most knives in shape for duty.

Stranger

[InternetLegend]

I have two really good knives my dad gave me a hundred years ago, when I was first setting up housekeeping. One is a chef's knife I cherish and use daily; the other is a boning knife I rarely use (I don't bone things). They both have "Marks Ironwood No Stain" and "Forged Brazil" stamped on their blades. I also have a cheap but sturdy bread knife, a Chicago Cutlery 107S paring knife, a 71S knife of the same brand (both are serviceable but don't hold an edge worth a damn), and some outrageously cheap Tramontina vinyl-handled, serrated knives which were a gift from someone I love and which came in a nice wood block. Unfortunately, the knives I actually use don't quite fit in the block, although I stick them in there anyway. I could probably use a cleaver, but my chef's knife does most jobs for me quite handily.

I suspect most home kitchens are like mine: full of various bits and pieces that I've acquired, often as gifts, over the years, with very little rhyme or reason to the overall collection. I could probably use a trip to a commercial supply store, but I can't stand to give up any of the things my well-meaning relatives have bestowed on me over the years.

[FairyChatMom]

Yeah, Chicago Cutlery makes cheapos, (http://www.amazon.com/Chicago-Cutlery-Classic-Chef-14-Piece/dp/B000278BQG/sr=8-5/qid=1163129831/ref=pd_bbs_5/002-0938719-0016023?ie=UTF8&s=home-garden) alright. By golly, that's the set I got as a "free gift" - Looks like I'd do better tossing them in the trash than even giving them to Goodwill. All they're doing now is collecting dust on the counter.

[Ferret Herder]

Hell, the chef's knife and the bread knife probably make up 90%. They certainly do in my kitchen. I got a 6-pc set of the cheap Henkels about eight years ago, and an 8" Global chef's about five years ago. I haven't bought another knife since, and I can't remember the last time I used something other than the Global or the bread knife.

(I am thinking about adding a nice santoku knife to the arsenal.)
I like a paring knife as well since although I can do delicate work with the tip of the chef's, I'm better at it with the paring knife.

I'd been eyeing Global for a chef's knife but so far I've stuck with my Chicago Cutlery chef's knife because of its nice broad blade and good handling. (Don't worry, that knife alone cost more than the set linked to here.) I always see the knives in the store and think the blade size doesn't compare - I like using it as a garlic smasher too - so perhaps I'll have to trace the blade size on paper and bring it to the store. I have a Global serrated knife for bread (scalloped edge, not that "never needs sharpening" rough edge), and a Calphalon paring knife.

[Uncommon Sense]

My favorite knife is some el-cheapo that I have to sharpen every time I use it. But it gets VERY sharp with very little effort. I would rather have a knife that's easy to sharpen and doesn't cost a fortune then a very expensive knife that has hard steel and is harder to sharpen. I don't have to worry about it either, it can go in the dishwasher (and has) and just gets thrown in the knife drawer.
Low maintenance yet sharp (it literally takes 10 seconds to sharpen).

[ralph124c]

I never see those TV chefs using those expensive and heavy (4 lb) 100% copper/tin-linced pans. My guess is, copper pans are so damn heavy, and the tin lining is fragile. how many people actually use copper pots?

[StarvingButStrong]

I never see those TV chefs using those expensive and heavy (4 lb) 100% copper/tin-linced pans. My guess is, copper pans are so damn heavy, and the tin lining is fragile. how many people actually use copper pots?


My sister-in-law does, every day. And then she polishes the copper bottoms so they'll gleam when she hangs them up.


I hate my sister-in-law.

[WhyNot]

My sister-in-law does, every day. And then she polishes the copper bottoms so they'll gleam when she hangs them up.


I hate my sister-in-law.
I hate your sister-in-law, too! :D


Grandma has one copper bowl that's for eggs (it's supposed to make them beat higher or fluffier or something?) that most of the grandkids are already fighting over in the will (and she's not dead yet.) I say let 'em have the horrid thing!

[BMalion]

I have a hard time believing that wood is more sanitary that plastic. Wood has uncountable little nicks and crannies for bacteria to hide in, while plastic is relatively smooth.


That's just the point, when the University of Berkley tested 100's of cutting boards by smearing them with salmonella and other cultures, they found that the little nooks and crannies isolated the bacteria and caused it to die out faster than a plastic one which allowed them to grow and multiply. Think about it, thousands of years of cutting boards and we haven't died out as a species due to food poisoning. I'll look for a cite.

Found one. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cutting_board)



While theoretically more sanitary than wooden cutting boards, testing has shown this is not always the case. Mildew can even form in deep scoring.




Found another one, (http://www.sciencenews.org/pages/sn_arc97/7_12_97/food.htm)

When Dean O. Cliver of the University of California-Davis began testing that common-sense wisdom as it pertains to cutting boards, 4 years ago, he too found that it didn’t seem to hold up. Microbiologically, at least, wood outperformed plastic, because he could extract plenty of live bacteria from the surfaces of plastic boards but virtually none from wood boards that had initially been tainted with the same number of bugs (SN: 2/6/93, p. 84).

In follow-up tests, he’s witnessed the same trend. Even after slathering bacteria onto wood cutting boards, he finds it next to impossible to retrieve them because they are quickly drawn beneath the surface into the initial 1 millimeter of wood

[bump]

Ah, but there's also a rule in homebrewing that eventually you have to replace your plastic gear (especially buckets), as sooner or later you're gonna get microscratches that you won't get clean. Come to think of it, I suspect that's what caused my last infected batch.

For sure, but nobody uses wooden utensils for anything post-boil! I wasn't trying to say that plastic is perfect, but rather that wooden utensils aren't really considered sanitizable.

Post boil, it's always glass, plastic or stainless steel, with the plastic stuff getting replaced every so often.

(speaking of that, I have to go get more tubing today- I'm going to try my hand at an Oktoberfest tomorrow!)

[Barbarian]

Mine are probably 10 - 15 years old now, and the honing steel isn't really doing much any more. Probably time for professional sharpening, or, I suppose, I could risk damage and try a stone on them. Anybody care to suggest an angle?

I use this clamp/guide (http://beast.voltztech.com/~razoredge/product_info.php?cPath=22&products_id=73&osCsid=7992da928043c2097f302fb6ad8e7cf3) on my large knives, and I really have to pick up a smaller guide for my paring knives. Doing it freehand is nigh impossible.

[pulykamell]

Yeah, Chicago Cutlery makes cheapos, (http://www.amazon.com/Chicago-Cutlery-Classic-Chef-14-Piece/dp/B000278BQG/sr=8-5/qid=1163129831/ref=pd_bbs_5/002-0938719-0016023?ie=UTF8&s=home-garden) alright. But I've also got a set of the Walnut Tradition, which I like just fine.

(Anyone in here want to recomment a sharpener for them?)

Get thee to Northwest Cutlery on Lake, just west of Haslted, on the north side of the street. It's only a couple of bucks to sharpen knives there, you only need to do it once, possibly twice a year. Do not use those cheapie $10-$20 diamond sharpeners or whatever. They are awful. If you do want to learn how to sharpen your knife, it's imperitive to get a sharpening stone, but I don't bother as it's easy enough to stop by northwest Cutlery.

I have Henckels knives myself, but stop raggin on Chicago Cutlery, people! They make some amazing knives, as long as you stay away from the cheapies.

[GingerOfTheNorth]

That's just the point, when the University of Berkley tested 100's of cutting boards by smearing them with salmonella and other cultures, they found that the little nooks and crannies isolated the bacteria and caused it to die out faster than a plastic one which allowed them to grow and multiply. Think about it, thousands of years of cutting boards and we haven't died out as a species due to food poisoning. I'll look for a cite.

Found one. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cutting_board)




Found another one, (http://www.sciencenews.org/pages/sn_arc97/7_12_97/food.htm)
This makes me feel better about the giant oak-topped island I just bought. I scrubbed it to within an inch of its life with water, then with lemon juice, then just water.

[longhair75]

My wife and I like to go to estate sales. Mainly we are there to look at the houses, but a couple of months ago there was a knife block sitting on a counter. It had an 8" chef's knife, a 10" serrated bread knife and an 8" utility knife all Henkel's Professional S series. There was also a Henkel" steel.

Priced to sell: $25.00

It is now sitting on my counter.......

[BMalion]

This makes me feel better about the giant oak-topped island I just bought. I scrubbed it to within an inch of its life with water, then with lemon juice, then just water.

I'd skip the lemon juice and just scrub, but to each his own. Also about once a year or so give it a good rubbing with mineral oil.

[Jake]

I've got a set of Eberhard Schaaf (Goldhamster) knives bought over the years.
Probably cost over four hundred dollars, inclluding the steel.
They're great. Anybody else have these?

[McDeath_the_Mad]

I received a Henckel International 8" Chefs knife for my birthday a few years ago. I loved it. So since then I have gotten a 6" Chefs knife, a 4" paring knife, 7" bread knife and a 8" carving knife (all Henckel International- Spain).

They all averaged ~$60-$70 CAN per knife, well worth it.

I keep them sharp with one of these:

Knife Sharpener (http://www.wescodirect.ca/cultures/en-us/Products/ProductListDetail.aspx?pik=49964&productId=49964)

I put an edge on the knife, then "clean" it up with a Henckel steel. I'm sure it's not the "right" way to do it, but damn-it it gets my knives pretty freaking sharp!

MtM

[Plynck]

I have a hard time believing that wood is more sanitary that plastic.I'll look for a cite.Look no further. You're both right! (It's a floor wax and a dessert topping!) The Staff Report (http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mcuttingbd.html) that addresses this question.
Grandma has one copper bowl that's for eggs (it's supposed to make them beat higher or fluffier or something?)It does indeed, similar to using cream of tartar.

[Eva Luna]

Get thee to Northwest Cutlery on Lake, just west of Haslted, on the north side of the street. It's only a couple of bucks to sharpen knives there, you only need to do it once, possibly twice a year. Do not use those cheapie $10-$20 diamond sharpeners or whatever. They are awful. If you do want to learn how to sharpen your knife, it's imperitive to get a sharpening stone, but I don't bother as it's easy enough to stop by northwest Cutlery.



Thanks! I just may check that out one of these days, though it's a bit of a haul from my place. But hey, it usually doesn't take much convincing to get me into any given kitchen supply store. :)

(And yes, on general principle, I do want to learn to sharpen my knife. I presume that place sells proper knife-sharpening gear as well?)

[ThisSpaceForRent]

Oh...forgot to add....an offset serrated edge bread knife...great for slicing sandwiches.

Also a MUST READ for anyone in the biz....

Kitchen Confidential by Anthony Bourdain

[Crafter_Man]

The answer is so obvious! The Ginsu Knife (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ginsu)!

It can cut through an aluminum can! A radiator hose! And then cut through a tomato with ease!

It has a 50-year warranty!

All for an incredible low price!

But wait, there's more!

[pulykamell]

Thanks! I just may check that out one of these days, though it's a bit of a haul from my place. But hey, it usually doesn't take much convincing to get me into any given kitchen supply store. :)

(And yes, on general principle, I do want to learn to sharpen my knife. I presume that place sells proper knife-sharpening gear as well?)

You know, I actually don't know, since I've never been in the market for a stone. One would think, but I'd give them a call.Here's a tutorial on knife sharpening. (http://www.thefarm.org/charities/i4at/lib2/knife.htm) It's probably not all that difficult, but it still seems too much trouble for me to learn for something I'm going to do at most twice a year.

There may be other dependable ways of sharpening a knife, I don't know. From what I understand, sharpening stones are the classic choice for good results. There may be something new fangled that works, but all the consumer-level knife sharpeners I've used did not produce satisfactory results.

[Critical1]

Hell, the chef's knife and the bread knife probably make up 90%. They certainly do in my kitchen.


I agree with this 100%, I have a drawer full of steely death and the only knife I use is the chefs knife unless I have to cut bread. I have one Henkel (the chefs) and one big serrated for bread and thats the only 2 knives I ever reach for. I have a henkel parring knife but with my hands it feels insanely small so never gets used at all.

[C K Dexter Haven]

Moderator Interjection:

Folks: Please note that all the posts in this thread are well over a year old, except for Critical1's addition to revive it. We're not overly concerned with "zombie" threads in Cafe Society, so if this topic has come up again, it's fair game to continue the discussion after such a long hiatus. However, remember that some of the people who posted earlier are no longer with us, so you may not get a two-way conversation going.

[aruvqan]

It took me about 15 years to get a roll I am happy with, and I dont think any 2 are of the same brand...and they all have different uses from my favorite sabatier chef knife, a generic chinese clever from a chinese grocery that cost me $4US through a serious butchers sabre that is 14 inches, and made back in about 1840 and is german. I have dick, wusthof, generic, sabatier of 3 different companies ... IF I cook at an SCA event, or at someones house, I take my favorite parer, my sabatier, and the third depends on what I plan on cooking=)

Someone makes the greatest backpack for your personal toolset... Fisher maybe? beats a knife roll all to hell - one I have seen fits all the tools, not just knives.

Why yes, we are very picky about our tools .. dont you realize that you can get cut worse from a dull or damaged knife than a well maintained one? Think about it, if someone thrashes your knife, and doesnt sharpen it... you go to cut through something and since it is dull, you use way too much force and it slips... instead of a light pressure you are now bearing down with a lot of weight and instead of a light slice you now have a gash... seen it happen more than once at an SCA event in the kitchen, and I have seen people doing it at home.

[DoperChic]

I love my knife set from Cuisinart (http://www.bedbathandbeyond.com/product.asp?order_num=-1&SKU=14029583&RN=395). It's a very basic four-knife set, but it does everything I need at home.

I've bought them for several people as gifts and they all give rave reviews.

[Sunrazor]

My son, a personal chef (http://www.terrabonne.com/) in Raleigh, NC, has always used Henkel knives and insists that all of his pots are copper-bottomed, stainless steel with riveted steel handles. He won't cook with anything else.

[Argent Towers]

Moderator Interjection:

Folks: Please note that all the posts in this thread are well over a year old, except for Critical1's addition to revive it. We're not overly concerned with "zombie" threads in Cafe Society, so if this topic has come up again, it's fair game to continue the discussion after such a long hiatus. However, remember that some of the people who posted earlier are no longer with us, so you may not get a two-way conversation going.

Know any recipes for brains?

[Rick]

This (http://www.amazon.com/Lansky-Professional-Knife-Sharpening-System/dp/B0001WP3H2/ref=sr_1_76?ie=UTF8&s=home-garden&qid=1202488290&sr=1-76) is what I use to sharpen my knives. The knife clamps into the aluminum clamp and the stones have the aluminum rods attach. The rods stick though holes in the clamp that give a 15 degree, 20 degree or 35 degree edge.
A perfect edge every time.

[ForumBot]

(I am thinking about adding a nice santoku knife to the arsenal.)
I think they're overrated. Apparently women with small hands love them, but I really don't get it. I've got an 8" Henckel Santoku and, while it's not bad, it's not really superior to my chef's knife in any aspect other than dicing, and my chef's knife still does a pretty good job of that.

Have you considered getting a hollow-point chef's knife? You get the benefit of food not sticking to the blade a Santoku provides, and the benefit of a curved blade you can rock into a rhythm with.

edit1: So sorry! Linked to this thread from another kitchen thread and got confused. Don't kill me.

edit2: Um, nevermind. Guess I didn't revive the zombie thread. I'm in the clear!

[ForumBot]

This (http://www.amazon.com/Lansky-Professional-Knife-Sharpening-System/dp/B0001WP3H2/ref=sr_1_76?ie=UTF8&s=home-garden&qid=1202488290&sr=1-76) is what I use to sharpen my knives. The knife clamps into the aluminum clamp and the stones have the aluminum rods attach. The rods stick though holes in the clamp that give a 15 degree, 20 degree or 35 degree edge.
A perfect edge every time.
But if you have a knife larger than 6", you have to re-adjust where the guide sits on the knife to get the entire length of the blade. Repeat twice for the other side, and you've just got a hassle.

A quality sharpening stone is considerably easier faster and easier. I recommend getting at least 8", with 10" being perfect for larger blades (I have a 10" chef's knife, but couldn't afford the extra $40~ for those extra 2"). I highly recommend DMT brand diamond sharpening stones. This (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0001408UC) is, without a doubt, the best value online in quality knife sharpeners. Don't worry about getting some fancy holster, a wet rag laid flat works perfectly fine.

If you don't have the money to spend on that, a Japanese water stone will do perfectly fine. My only gripe is that they have to be continually ground down with a big coarse block to keep them even and they aren't as durable.

[Cluricaun]

This sounds nuts, but I have a Corsican style vendetta knife (http://www.legend-knives.com/img/Corsican%20Vendetta-full.jpg) that holds the best edge of anything I own and I prefer using this to chop veggies more than anything else in my kitchen. I know most chefs don't use switchblades in their kitchens, but I swear by the thing. Or I was just inventing a use for a knife I like to play with, but this sucker goes through a tomato like it's not even there.

[Scumpup]

You have a self-opening vendetta knife? Cool. The ones I've seen were all manual opening and didn't even have a lock. They all relied on a really stiff backspring to keep the knife from closing on one's fingers while carrying out a vendetta.

[Wee Bairn]

So no one like the sets Ron Popeil hawks that can cut through a hammer head?

[Scumpup]

I know you're joking, but hammer heads are made from alloys selected for toughness and heat treated accordingly. It they are hard, they chip or shatter with unpleasant injuries from the fragments resulting. Even cheap knives, if they've been heat treated at all, are harder. Add in a serrated edge and you really can take one of those cheap TV knives and saw a groove in a hammer head.

[Critical1]

Know any recipes for brains?


this is what happens when you are still up at 4:30 am and posting...yeah I knew it was a mistake as soon as I woke up

[Attack from the 3rd dimension]

Know any recipes for brains?

And in the spirit of the thread, what's the best tool for getting them out of their container?

[crowmanyclouds]

But if you have a knife larger than 6", you have to re-adjust where the guide sits on the knife to get the entire length of the blade. Repeat twice for the other side, and you've just got a hassle. ...Nope, there's guide holes on both sides of the clamp. I've never had any real problem sharpening knives up to ~10" with a single guide. For really long stuff I just bought an extra guide (http://www.knivesplus.com/lansky-knife-sharpener-lk-lp006.html) and move the stone between the two.

For most folks a bench stone isn't the best choice. Keeping a constant angle is tricky for someone who doesn't sharpen knives often. I'd recommend some kind of sharpening (http://www.amazon.com/Minosharp-Sharpening-Guides-2-Piece-Set/dp/B0006A03V0/ref=pd_sbs_k_title_4) guide (http://www.amazon.com/Global-Knife-Sharpening-Guides-Set/dp/B00005OL3H) for a novice who does want to use a bench stone.

My choice for every time I use a knife is something like this (http://www.knifecenter.com/kc_new/store_detail.html?s=GB4307), with both coarse and fine ceramic sticks. 5 - 10 light passes on the fine side and it's sharp!

CMC +fnord!

[DesertDog]

And in the spirit of the thread, what's the best tool for getting them out of their container?Why, a skull spoon, of course. Think grapefruit spoon, only bigger.

[Alessan]

Why, a skull spoon, of course. Think grapefruit spoon, only bigger.
Sounds like a unitasker to me. What else can it do?

[Shagnasty]

--

[Joey P]

I didn't read the three pages of replies, so someone else may have said this about the knives, but here's another thing. Most(all) restaurants send their knives out to be resharpened ever week or so. This means they don't have to hold their edge as well. It also means that every few months they have to be replaced since there isn't much of a blade left. All this means they don't need to have $75 chef's knives. The cheaper knives will be just fine since they only need to last a year or so before they get replaced.

[StarvingButStrong]

Sounds like a unitasker to me. What else can it do?


Well, mine is the deluxe model. It has a small protruding lip that is just *perfect* for popping out the eyeballs whole.

It makes such a difference to your buffet table when you can offer whole undamaged eyes, instead of pathetic partially crushed ones.

[furt]

Based on several conversations with chefs (I work in a culinary school):

In their home, or on a private chef gig, they might bust out the big-bucks equipment. In a crowded, chaotic restaurant kitchen, a good knife is just going to get nicked. And yes, I do mean "nicked" in both ways -- $8 an hour employees and $400 knives do not mix.

[Broomstick]

Know any recipes for brains?
Actually, yes. My grandfather used to like chopped brains mixed with scrambled eggs for breakfast. Not sure if he preferred those from specific animal or if any would do.

[Broomstick]

So no one like the sets Ron Popeil hawks that can cut through a hammer head?
You mean Ginsu knives? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ginsu_knife)

I have a ginsu chef knife, filet knife, and two carving knives. There was a product demonstrator at a local store where I was shopping who was using one to saw up a wooden cutting board then slicing tomatoes with it, after which he said "who wants to buy a set"?

I realize it's heresy to some folks, but I like my ginsu knives. They're cheap, they work, they never need sharpening... Yes I've used fancy chef knives and yes, in some ways they are better, but if something bad ever happened to the ginsu's - lost, broken, used to saw masonry blocks, whatever - they would be easy to replace. And I don't have to fuss with sharpening them. Look, I'm a competent cook but I don't get off on elaborate kitchen gadgets. Gimme really basic, durable stuff that gets the job done and doesn't require a lot from me in regards to TLC.

Then again, I'm the person who once started a thread on which wine to drink with a bolonga on white bread sandwich. Yeah, I'm a barbarian.