Prayer at graduation poster child reveals self

[Contestant #3]

I just read over in MPSIMS that Cessandra, the "Prayer at graduation" poster child, the one sooooo offended by a 2 minute prayer at her graduation ceremony that she was willing to embarass her parents and go against the wishes of her entire senior class has up and joined the Student Pagan Association at college this fall...after of course, having checked out the Catholic organization!

I was right! I'm vindicated! I had claimed oh so many months ago that it seemed to me that her conviction on religious grounds was weak. That she really was not offended by the religion, but rather was just trying to be difficult and get attention.

The fact that she dropped the matter anyway, now combined with this shows that my assessment was right on target!

Geesh, I wonder if she'll threaten to call in the ACLU and shut down the Student Pagan Association if a Pagan prayer is recited at their next meeting?



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Contestant #3

[Cessandra]

Wow, C#3, you are so wrong, I don't even know where to begin. Maybe by pointing you to my response to Lucky on this topic in the thread which you mention? Will that be enough, or shall I expound?
Here's the URL, in case you lost it: http://www.straightdope.com/ubb/Forum4/HTML/001207.html

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The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation.
-- Henry David Thoreau

My Homepage: http://www.shsu.edu/~stdmed17/Home.html
My RHPS page: http://www.shsu.edu/~stdmed17/RockyHome.html

[Contestant #3]

So what's your point?

Are you trying to say that Paganism isn't a real religion?

Are you assuring us that you won't get an injuction to stop a Pagan prayer at a ceremony?

Are you trying to tell us that you had a beer with an ACLU rep at a on-campus kegger?

Just was the hell are you trying to say?

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Contestant #3

[pricciar]

I don't know why I am posting but I will.

Cessandra never said she wasn't religous. She just said that she thought it was unconstitutional for her school to have a prayer. Since the administration led the prayer.
I agreed at the time. I agree now.

Arguing the point did not make her anti-religious, it made her pro-America.

Now, the fact that she went to the catholic center on campus and the pagan association doesn't prove your points.

Oh.
That ACLU kegger joke was pretty funny.


pat

[Cessandra]

Okay, ***hole (can't remember if I'm allowed to say words like that here), here is my f*cking point:


Are you trying to say that Paganism isn't a real religion?


No, it's not. According to both my dictionary and the SPA, "pagan" is defined as one who is "not Christian, Jewish, or Muslim; one who has not religion; a herectic". It is not, in and of itself, a religion.


Are you assuring us that you won't get an injuction to stop a Pagan prayer at a ceremony?


And why would I do that? I beleive that I have stated time and time again that I have no problem, whatsoever with student groups having religious affiliations. I never had a problem with the kids who prayed around the flagpole or the after-school bible-tudy groups. Why would I be offended by the Pagan group offering prayers? Then again, why would the Pagan group offer any prayers? It would take half the meeting just to decide who to pray to.


Are you trying to tell us that you had a beer with an ACLU rep at a on-campus kegger?


Actually, dearheart, I don't drink. I'm underage, and on top of that, it violates my convictions. Don't you remember shortly before I left that everyone was trying to convince me that I was being a bitch by asking close friends not to drink in my presence?


Just was the hell are you trying to say?


Just this:

1) My religious convictions have not changed at all since last May. You accused me of being wishy-washy in my beliefs. So, you were wrong.

2) My convictions on the matter of prayer at graduation have not changed since last May. Although I did wuss out quite a bit on the matter, it seems that my making a fuss wouldn't have mattered much anyway as the federal court residing over Texas has already decided the matter. I still think they are wrong, but it is not for me to decide. I am, however, prepared to raise another fuss this May if Cy-Fair finds it in their hearts to bring back the Prayer Week posters, as I have been advised by the ACLU that this is blatantly unconstitutional. But, since I am no longer a student at Cy-Fair, I am corraburating with a friend who feels just as strongly on this issue as I do.

3) #1 and #2 have nothing to do with one another. If I were still Catholic I would still find the actions which previously grieved me just as wrong and detrimental to the American way of life. In fact, when I was Catholic, I did feel this way.

Basically, it appears that you have immediatly flamed me for trying to uphold what I feel are my rights simply because I (oh my gawd!) show some interest in leading a religious life. You act as though only atheists can be appalled at the violation of Church and State. Can only Christians be insulted if the government takes away their religious rights? Can only those of minority ethincities be offended when they are targeted for hate crimes? Geez, man, get a life.

------------------
The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation.
-- Henry David Thoreau

My Homepage: http://www.shsu.edu/~stdmed17/Home.html
My RHPS page: http://www.shsu.edu/~stdmed17/RockyHome.html

[Contestant #3]

Oh I'm sorry! I guess they didn't teach you at Cy-Fair that part of living in the adult world is getting challenged and facing those challenges!

Concerning Paganism as religious, Cess wrote:

"No, it's not. According to both my dictionary and the SPA, "pagan" is defined as one who is "not Christian, Jewish, or Muslim; one who has not religion; a herectic". It is not, in and of itself, a religion."

Oh really now! Not a religion eh? Better not tell Auraseer that. Every time I poke fun at his Paganism I'm told by him and others that I'm assailing his "religious" beliefs!! Geesh!! You Pagans got it made!! It's a religion when you want it to be...not a religion when that's more convenient!!

Maybe you just better study up on your newfound association! Here's a link that oughta open your eyes:
http://www.straightdope.com/ubb/Forum7/HTML/000227.html

So the next time that your having a little SPA meeting on the campus of that "STATE" college that you attend and prayer-like chanting breaks out, you better grab the nearest ACLU rep and put a stop to that crap because as we all know, you are heavily convicted where the Constitution is concerned.



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Contestant #3

[Cessandra]

There is a difference between a relgious belief and an actual religion. Many people believe religiously in karma. It is their religious belief that doing good will bring them a better position in their next life. But karma is not a religion. Now whether AuraSeer considers "Paganism" a religion is not anything I've done research on, though I plan to read the linked thread in a moment. Actually, I couldn't care less if AuraSeer considers it a religion (no offense, dear). The dictionary and the group with which I affiliate myself as a Pagan (based on my beliefs as an agnostic) do not define "Paganism" as a religion. As a matter of fact, I've never even heard the word "Paganism" used before. (Note the liberal use of quotes.) Was this term coined here on the SDMB?

------------------
The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation.
-- Henry David Thoreau

My Homepage: http://www.shsu.edu/~stdmed17/Home.html
My RHPS page: http://www.shsu.edu/~stdmed17/RockyHome.html

[Cessandra]

PS I would like to invite AuraSeer to tell me if I am wrong. I am entirely new to this, and am only going on what I have read and learned in my group.

[Czarcasm]

Let me get this straight, Connie. If Cessandra continues fighting for her civil rights, she's not living in the real world.
If she stops fighting for her civil rights, she is weak in her convictions.
There is a word for people who use this type of argument to consistantly attack people.
Fortunately, even in the BBQ Pit I am too much of a gentleman to use it.

[Cessandra]

Another PS: I retract the idea that I had never heard the term "paganism" before. Somehow it just sounded strange in C#3's post, but now I recognize it. :) Silly me.

[Contestant #3]

Slythe wrote:

"Let me get this straight, Connie."

Forget it Slythe, you NEVER get it straight...even in your sex life apparently based upon a certain "tongue" statement you made recently.

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Contestant #3

[Kat]

Okay, let me see if I've got this straight: Only non-religious people can think that it is wrong for a government-sponsored event to promote religion and only non-religious people can protest a prayer at a government-sponsored event (yes, a public school is part of the government) as being a violation of the Constitution. Have I got that right?

What's Connie's next sweeping pronouncement going to be?
People who smoke cannot believe that it's rude to blow cigarette smoke in someone's face?

[Girl Next Door]

C #3, isn't it time for your next alien anal probe? Shut yer cake-hole and quit picking on Cessandra.

And Cess, do a little more research on paganism before you take on this notorious flaming ass. It doesn't help your case when you claim that paganism isn't a religion or that it isn't even a word. Jeesh!

[Czarcasm]

If you have a problem with my sexual alignment, come right out and say it, Connie.
Of course, no one expected you to actually address the issue I brought up. No matter which way Cessandra decides to go, you have a ready-made attack just waiting in the wings.
If you have a problem with my job, my love-life, my alleged relationship with a certain moderator, my wife, or any other aspect of my personal life, why don't you start a thread here in the BBQ Pit.
I'm sure that everyone else would love to see the results.

[Contestant #3]

The only thing that you've got straight Kat is that those are your words...not mine.

Have someone else explain the various points to you, since you want to beat the fuck out of me, I'm not doing you the favor of taking you through it step by step.

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Contestant #3

[Contestant #3]

Slythe,

Your bisexuality or your job as a boss of security guards doesn't affect me. As long as you are happy with yourself that is all that counts.

I guess that you have special lisence to joke about me all over this board but turnabout is not fair play...oh...I see...

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Contestant #3

[Cessandra]

GirlNextDoor,

I admit that I was a bit slow on recognizing "paganism" as a word. That is entirely my own stupidity and a shame to me as an English major. However, based on the definition of the word "Pagan", explain to me how it is a religion in and of itself. Wicca, I can see as a religion. But, any person who is not Christian, Muslim, or Jewish can define themselves as Pagan and be correct. You could be Hindu or Buddhist or atheist and still, technically, you are Pagan. This is the basis for my claim to be a Pagan. This is the basis for the Pagan group to which I belong. Explain to me where I am wrong?

[Kat]

No, Connie, I want you to try to back up your assertion that your position in the OP is not "Cessandra has religious beliefs, therefore she cannot support the concept of the separation of church and state." Or can't you do that?

[AuraSeer]

Cessandra, since you asked so nicely( ;)), I'll quote my dictionary:

pagan noun
1 - an unconverted member of a people or nation that does not acknowledge the God of the Bible. especially: a follower of a polytheistic religion. [emphasis in original]
2 - an irreligious or hedonistic person

I am a follower of a polytheistic religion; therefore I am a pagan. Simple enough.

[Cessandra]

I'm not sure if that proves my point or not, but since all I asked was your opinion, I thank you very much, AuraSeer. :)

[Czarcasm]

Connie, I criticise your positions, not your personal life. I also criticise your resorting to personal, if misguided, attacks instead of answering questions that are set before you.
The trouble is that, now, no-one can believe any position you take because we cannot know if you are being serious or not.
Do you believe that there is a great body of evidence involving U.F.O.s?
Do you think I was stalking Cessandra?
Do you believe that I am related to anyone on the Straight Dope Board?
Do you have a problem with my job?
Do you have a problem with my sexual orientation?

You see, Connie, why I can't believe anything you say anymore. Like I said before, the "Rush Limbaugh" method of attacking people, then saying,"Just kidding!" when called on the carpet for it, is for people who are playing to a hand-picked audience. This ain't it.

[Contestant #3]

Hey Cessandra, you DO go to a state-supported, public college right? ...just double-checking...

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Contestant #3

[Czarcasm]

AuraSeer=Pagan definition #1.
Cessandra=Pagan definition #2.

By George, I think I've got it!

[Cessandra]

Yes, C#3, I do.

[Contestant #3]

First of all Slythe, yes, you do level personal attacks against me. They can be found all over the SDMB.

I don't owe you this, especially since it isn't topic-related, but just because you despise me the most, that outta count for something...here's the answers to your questions:

Do you believe that there is a great body of evidence involving U.F.O.s?

I know that evidence in the form of eyewitness reports by reliable witnesses exists and that there is a "great body" of it. I believe that some physical evidence is PROBABLY posessed by the US Government, and no, they aren't gonna admit it, or let you or I examine it any time soon.

Do you think I was stalking Cessandra?

Stalking in the classic sense? Of course not... Going way out of your way to try to protect here as to make yourself obvious? Yes, you did it then and are doing it now. I can only privately speculate as to the reason for this.

Do you believe that I am related to anyone on the Straight Dope Board?

I would have no way or proving or disproving your relationship to anyone on this board. Do I REALLY think that you are the brother-in-law of David B? No. But then again, who knows for sure...all I've got is an eyewitness account.

Do you have a problem with my job?

I've answered this at least two or three times in different threads. No. Not at all. I know plenty men of science that work as security guards, fry cooks, cashiers, etc. I think that if you are doing work that makes you happy and makes you want to get out of bed in the morning then you are one of the truly blessed.

Do you have a problem with my sexual orientation?

Your sexual preference would not be known to me if you had not chose to share it recently, and no, bisexuality, although not my chosen path, is OK for you or anyone else that wants to practice it. It has no bearing on me personally.

There...feel better?

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Contestant #3

[Cessandra]

C#3 said (to slythe):


Stalking in the classic sense? Of course not... Going way out of your way to try to protect here as to make yourself obvious? Yes, you did it then and are doing it now. I can only privately speculate as to the reason for this.


Honestly, C#3, replace "protect" with "harass", and that is my exact opinion of you.

[Contestant #3]

Oh really Cessandra?

Less than one hour ago this is what you posted in another thread concerning me:

"But seriously, he has a right to call me out if he thinks I am wrong, and the pit is certainly the right place to do it."

Change of heart in the last hour huh?

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Contestant #3

[Contestant #3]

You know Cessandra, somebody with strong Constitutional convictions might feel that if this Student Pagan Association is conducting meetings or rituals on campus, that it is in effect an example of the government promoting religion.

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Contestant #3

[Cessandra]

Not at all. I certainly think that the pit is the proper place for your little rants. If you think I am wrong, or you just want people to listen to you whine, or whatever, just as long as you keep it here so that people don't have to listen to your crap in a real conversation.

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The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation.
-- Henry David Thoreau

My Homepage: http://www.shsu.edu/~stdmed17/Home.html
My RHPS page: http://www.shsu.edu/~stdmed17/RockyHome.html

[Cessandra]

Actually, dear, I have said MANY times (in this thread and others) that I do not believe that a student organization such as this is violating anyone's rights. It is not part of the curriculum, or part of any school-wide ceremony. It's just like the after-school groups that I upheld four months ago.

[Contestant #3]

So you chose to split hairs where the Constitution is concerned?

A prayer being said on the grounds of government-owned property at a voluntary ceremony violates the Constitution, but,

Government grounds and facilities being used to promote religous organizations is Ok?

Wow. How convenient for you.

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Contestant #3

[Cessandra]

No, the government asking that I abide by a prayer being said for me at a public function which I am required to attend else face punishment (ie not being allowed to walk accross the stage) is different than a group of students meeting on their own time to disscuss matters of religion. In fact, since I live on campus (and actually that's not the deciding factor), the school's inhibiting such meetings would offend me as a prohibition on religious activity. Do you understand, or do I need to write slower and use smaller words?

[Byzantine]

"trying to be difficult and get attention."

Go back up, through this thread, find this source, and see MY point.

Kisses all around!

[Contestant #3]

Actually I've tried your rhetoric at a couple of different speeds and still find it quite lacking in consistancy.

Your attempt at making a voluntary ceremony a mandatory attendance event fraught with punishments is laughable and shows the weakness of your argument.

The high school seniors at good ole' Cy-Fair were out of bounds by praying in your presence on government property but you are legal when you perform Pagan rituals on the campus of a government college. That's a pretty fine line that you paint Cess. Can you be sure that no non-Pagan students will be exposed to your religion without their express approval?

Actually I'm fine with your involvement in the Pagan Student Assoc. Just as I had no problem with the brief prayer at your voluntary graduation ceremony. Both are examples of religion mixed with government institutions of learning.

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Contestant #3

[OpalCat]

Wow, Contestant #3 really is a stupid, thick-headed, and clueless as everyone said they were! This is really my first chance to see it in action.

A few things... first of all "Pagan" is not a religion, it is a category. There are pagan religions which are certainly real religions, but "Pagan" or "Paganism" are not, in themselves, religions. I doubt someone with C#3's intellectual capabilities would be able to grasp the difference though. It seems to me that C#3's entire purpose here is to try to twist everything Cessandra says into something to make her look bad.

I'm wiccan, myself, but was raised Christian. At no point in my life have I been an athiest. That said, I fully agree with Cessandra's views regarding the prayer at her school. I am also very offended by the references to god on US money. You see, C#3, convenient as it may be, most of us don't support/agree-with/disagree-with the consistency/lack thereof in enforcement of the Constitution based on whether it is advantageous to our own pet causes or beliefs for it to be enforced. You might operate that way, but that is because you are a weasel. While I might personally think that money with a big ole pentacle on it would be just groovy and not bother me personally one bit, I'd fight tooth and nail if the government tried to implement such a thing. Again, this isn't something I expect you to be able to understand.

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>^,,^<
"Cluemobile? You've got a pickup..."
OpalCat's site: http://opalcat.com
The Teeming Millions Homepage: fathom.org/teemingmillions (http://fathom.org/teemingmillions)

[Czarcasm]

Again I ask, C3: If Cessandra is a fool if she keeps her position on manditory prayer, and she is wishy-washy if she changes her position, what the HELL do you want her to do? Besides attacking Cessandra because you feel that it is the only way people will pay attention to you, what is the purpose of this thread?

[Byzantine]

Well, gosh, Slythe, stop giving into his obvious, overwhelming need!

[Byzantine]

Oh, BTW, can I still have your baby?

[Contestant #3]

Slythe:

1. Those are your words...not mine

2. I know for a fact that others here have a
problem with her fuzzy way of looking at
this.

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Contestant #3

[Diane]

In the begining you were an annoying troll, then you progressed to obnoxious retard, now you have graduated yourself to a pathetic fuck.

If anything, you are consistant.


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>^,,^<
KITTEN
Coffee, chocolate, men . . . Some things are just better rich.

[SkeptiJess]

Well, I don' consider Cess's way of thinking to be "fuzzy." I think there is a large difference between having a prayer at a school ceremony and having a club where students can pray if they wish. The difference is that one is mandatory and the other is voluntary. A graduation ceremony is supposed to embrace and include all graduates. Having a school sponsered prayer at a graduation ceremony excludes -- at a ceremony to honor them -- students who do not share the belief system represented by the prayer. I (and, I daresay, Cess) would be as offended by a Pagan prayer at a public school graduation as I am by a Judeo-Christian prayer -- and for the same reasons.
No one HAS to join a club, be it Cess's Pagan group, the Chess Club or Fishers of Men.


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Jess
Full of 'satiable curtiosity

[ChrisCTP]

Cess,C#3: If you don't mind, I'd like to know when your birthdays are.

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Veni, Vidi, Visa ... I came, I saw, I bought.

[Contestant #3]

May 11

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Contestant #3

[Diane]

Cess,C#3: If you don't mind, I'd like to know when your birthdays are.

Hey, if you're handing out presents, mine is February 14

(What date of birth did you expect for a sweetheart such as myself?).

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>^,,^<
KITTEN
Coffee, chocolate, men . . . Some things are just better rich.

[tracer]

slythe wrote:

If you have a problem with my sexual alignment, come right out and say it, Connie.

Sexual alignment?

What, are you saying you're Chaotic-Evil in bed or something? ;)

[Czarcasm]

Damn, my secret is out!

[Czarcasm]

Oh, and Byzy? About your request: you'll have to talk to my wife about your request. Is your bed big enough for three? :).

[Cessandra]

Note to Chris: April 24, 1981 (I am 18)

To everybody else: I just want to say how very sorry I am for responding to this thread in the first place, and feeding C#3's need for attention. I have realized that any further comments on my part are useless, as he is not listening to me so much as looking for ammo for his next insult. The rest of you do as you will; I'm done with this nonsense.

[Byzantine]

Yep, actually I think it's big enough for 10 ;)

[Czarcasm]

Got anybody special in mind?
This is a great direction to take this thread! We'll just it Thread-Privateering ;).

[Lucky]

I've put on my riot gear, so I'm ready to speak my mind.

C3 was right in that Cessandra does not seem to have any real committment to upholding the constitution and was likely making an issue of the prayer at her graduation in order to get some attention. Many of you flamed him for suggeting this, but I think he was right and Cess' actions tend to support this point of view.

At the time, it seemed to me that Cess was not passionately committed to upholding the constitution, as she claimed. In the end, she ended up doing nothing about the prayer at her graduation. She did not even protest by not attending the graduation ceremony. IMHO, that would have been the least she could have done, had she really been as devoted as she wanted everyone to believe.

I understand that everyone loves a crusader, and we all wish there were more of them, but I think those of you who thought she was 'fighting the good fight' misplaced your confidence.

Cess is young, and it is not at all surprising to find that she does not have a real good grip on her beliefs. Heck, she's just now starting college. She hasn't even yet been exposed to the ideas that will, eventually, shape her conscience. I'm sure she is a fine young lady and I'm sure she does believe that prayer at graduation is wrong. However, she was not so committed as to actually do anyting about it, which is what C3 predicted from the begining. As I said when I started out, in this C3 was right.

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"I think it would be a great idea" Mohandas Ghandi's answer when asked what he thought of Western civilization

[Lucky]

Auraseer;

Please re-read my post. I did not say or suggest that I feel it was OK to have the prayer at graduation. What I said was that C3 correctly spotted Cess for the typical desperately-passionate-one-minute-forgot-all-about-it-the-next teen that she is. This is to be expected and is quite normal for her age.
The point I was trying to make is that many people here behaved as if Cess was going to be the next Malcom X, and castigated C3 for suggesting that she was merely a teenager who may have had other motives. Granted, there was a lot more to the argument, but this is the only point I addressed, and this is the point on which I agree with C3. Please refrain from assuming you know my position on matters to which I have not spoken.



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"I think it would be a great idea" Mohandas Ghandi's answer when asked what he thought of Western civilization

[AuraSeer]

I think we have completely different views on how that situation turned out. Let's please agree not to debate it here; that whole thing was thoroughly hashed out in the original thread.

[Lucky]

AuraSeer;

I have no intention of re-hashing the original debate. It was you who accused me of not understanding my constitutional rights and you who revisited the original argument.

My posts have been confined to the topic of this thread, specifically, that Cess has shown her true colors with regard to the prayer at graduation debate through her actions (or lack thereof). When C3 suggested this, both in the original thread and in this thread, many people told him to fuck off and stop saying that she wasn't a committed, conscientious young lady who was very serious about her convictions. I say again that Cess' actions (or lack thereof)support C3's original contention that she was making a big fuss over something that really wasn't that important to her.

Now, lest you misunderstand, I am not saying that the issue itself is unimportant. I am also not saying that I think Cess' argument was wrong. I am saying that Cess was far less committed to this cause than she would have had others believe. C3 called her on it then and now, and I think in this he is right.

BTW, thank you for the kind apology you offered after you wrongly assumed to know my position. Congratulations, you have been added to the canonical list of People Who Piss Me Off.

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"I think it would be a great idea" Mohandas Ghandi's answer when asked what he thought of Western civilization

[Lucky]

I stand corrected. I just received an e-mail from Cess who informs me that she did not attend her graduation ceremony. It is not clear from her message if she did this out of protest or because she had pissed off a lot of people and didn't want to deal with the whole thing anymore. I'm not trying to be condescending here; that's pretty much the way she said it.

So, while I stand by everything else I have said here, I retract my statement that Cess attended the ceremony. My apologies.

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"I think it would be a great idea" Mohandas Ghandi's answer when asked what he thought of Western civilization

[AuraSeer]

Lucky: Congratulations, you have been added to the canonical list of People Who Cannot Understand The Difference Between Personal Religion And Established Religion.

Cessandra's problem with the graduation prayer was that it was a school-directed religious activity, and was thus unconstitutional. I'd have reacted the same way, regardless of whether the prayer agreed with my own beliefs. At a publicly-funded school, neither the faculty nor the administration may promote any specific religious belief; it's that simple.

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Of course I don't fit in; I'm part of a better puzzle.

[Big Iron]

[[My posts have been confined to the topic of this thread, specifically, that Cess has shown her true colors with regard to the prayer at graduation debate through her actions (or lack thereof). When C3 suggested this, both in the original thread and in this thread, many people told him to fuck off and stop saying that she wasn't a committed, conscientious young lady who was very serious about her convictions. I say again that Cess' actions (or lack thereof)support C3's original contention that she was making a big fuss over something that really wasn't that important to her.]] Lucky


He's still wrong, however (and you, seemingly, too, unless I missed some mighty fine distinction). There's a world of difference between a school-sponsored prayer at an official school event and a school simply allowing a group with a religious theme to meet on its grounds after hours, with no official involvement. There is no hypocrisy in objecting to the former and not objecting to (or even participating) in the latter. I have no objection to the latter, and I am not a member of any organized religion.