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Frylock
12-03-2006, 12:05 PM
I'm seeing on the news comments to the effect that Gwyneth Paltrow said something bad about "Americans" recently. I've googled and come up with a comment to the effect that dinner conversation has been more interesting for her in Britain than it was in America. Is that it? Or is there more that she said?

-FrL-

Amazingrace
12-03-2006, 12:17 PM
That's part of it. I've linked to a Boston Herald article here (http://news.bostonherald.com/national/view.bg?articleid=170246) . She basically says that she prefers Britain to the U.S. because:


I like living here, because I donít fit into the bad side of American psychology
The British are much more intelligent and civilized than the Americans
People donít talk about work and money. They talk about interesting things at dinner


Bah Humbug to you Ms. Paltrow. I haven't liked her since she talked about how she
"always had a feeling that she would be famous." I wonder what would have ever given her that idea. Certainly not mom and dad. :rolleyes:

HelloKitty
12-03-2006, 12:28 PM
So she's got opinions, why is that so wrong? If she said she liked living in Los Angeles better than living in New York (or vice versa) would you feel the same way?

Caridwen
12-03-2006, 12:38 PM
I don't see the big deal.

madmonk28
12-03-2006, 01:10 PM
I don't either. She prefers the UK to the US, why should anyone be upset.

athelas
12-03-2006, 01:15 PM
Opinions, fine. Just don't expect me to care.

LavenderBlue
12-03-2006, 01:24 PM
I can't respect a woman who names her daughter after fruit.

Frylock
12-03-2006, 01:40 PM
Yeah, its funny that the people who are making a big deal about what Gwyneth said are, generally, the very same people who will insist that its silly to care what celebrities think or say about politics and culture...

-FrL-

Equipoise
12-03-2006, 01:47 PM
I like living here, because I donít fit into the bad side of American psychology

The British are much more intelligent and civilized than the Americans

People donít talk about work and money. They talk about interesting things at dinner

Based on my trips to England, that's about right. It's a shame people are threatened by a list like that. God forbid Americans be reminded of how shallow they can be.

Bah Humbug to you Ms. Paltrow. I haven't liked her since she talked about how she "always had a feeling that she would be famous." I wonder what would have ever given her that idea. Certainly not mom and dad. :rolleyes:

I'd have to hear context and not take your word about what exactly she said and how it was said. My question is what do you mean "certainly not mom and dad"? You think her parents aren't famous (they are) or wouldn't have had anything to do with a feeling that she would be famous one day? Don't most attentive and doting parents think their kids will do great things and be famous? Gwyneth had more of a head start than most to becoming famous so why not say it if the subject should come up somehow?

I like Gwyneth Paltrow. I used to be one of those silly haters until I learned more about her. She's a very nice person, with a head on her shoulders and she does NOT have a big ego. Good for her for speaking her mind, especially since reactions are tending to prove her point.

And I love the name Apple.

armedmonkey
12-03-2006, 02:12 PM
My question is what do you mean "certainly not mom and dad"? You think her parents aren't famous (they are) or wouldn't have had anything to do with a feeling that she would be famous one day? I think what AmazingGrace was getting at is that Ms. Paltrow's comment about "being famous one day" is ridiculous precisely because she does have famous parents. Imagine how ridiculous it would sound if, say, Prince William said something to the effect of "I always knew I'd be famous".

And she should have named her kid Kumquat.

Equipoise
12-03-2006, 02:42 PM
I think what AmazingGrace was getting at is that Ms. Paltrow's comment about "being famous one day" is ridiculous precisely because she does have famous parents. Imagine how ridiculous it would sound if, say, Prince William said something to the effect of "I always knew I'd be famous".

Ok, but we have no idea what the context was. I doubt she just said it as a random non sequitur so it must have been in response to a question.


And she should have named her kid Kumquat.

:rolleyes:

woodstockbirdybird
12-03-2006, 03:09 PM
Based on my trips to England, that's about right. It's a shame people are threatened by a list like that. God forbid Americans be reminded of how shallow they can be.


It's about right based on my trips to England, too. Even their TV talk shows are orders of magnitude more intelligent than ours. ANd the conversations I had with people there were generally more "deep" than conversations I've had in similar situations here in the U.S. So what? That's not the same thing as saying you hope the terrorists win. People who take offense to such statements are just defaulting to the "home team" mentality - they'd be just as "patriotic" if they were citizens of Iran.

The only thing I disagree with a bit is the "more civilized" remark - obviously, she's never hung out at a pub after a football match.

Larry Borgia
12-03-2006, 03:17 PM
Yes, skinhead football hooligans are so much more cultured and intelligent than Americans.

Saying "ethnic group X is better than ethnic group Y" is always stupid.

Amazingrace
12-03-2006, 03:28 PM
I think what AmazingGrace was getting at is that Ms. Paltrow's comment about "being famous one day" is ridiculous precisely because she does have famous parents. Imagine how ridiculous it would sound if, say, Prince William said something to the effect of "I always knew I'd be famous".

This is exactly what I meant. It's just silly.

She's a very nice person, with a head on her shoulders and she does NOT have a big ego. Good for her for speaking her mind, especially since reactions are tending to prove her point.

I think that it takes a lot of ego to insult such a large part of her fan base as well as her husband's.

People who take offense to such statements are just defaulting to the "home team" mentality - they'd be just as "patriotic" if they were citizens of Iran.

Whatever. I'm not upset that she feels this way about America. There are pros and cons about any place in the world. I'm in disbelief that she has the cajones to say this and likely still expect us to shell out $8 for a movie ticket or $15 for her husband's CD. Hopefully we're all cultured enough to understand the deeper meanings of their craft.

Cisco
12-03-2006, 03:30 PM
Saying "ethnic group X is better than ethnic group Y" is always stupid.
Which doesn't seem to be at all what she said. It seems like she said she prefers the UK because of X, Y, and Z. That's a perfectly valid position to take and I happen to agree with her. I'd love to live in the UK.

I don't really care much one way or another for Gwenyth, and I really don't like celebrity gossip (or obsession), but FWIW I think Apple is a cool name.

woodstockbirdybird
12-03-2006, 03:33 PM
Whatever. I'm not upset that she feels this way about America. There are pros and cons about any place in the world. I'm in disbelief that she has the cajones to say this and likely still expect us to shell out $8 for a movie ticket or $15 for her husband's CD. Hopefully we're all cultured enough to understand the deeper meanings of their craft.

So you're not upset, and yet you think her comments are enough to warrant not going to her movies or buying her husband's music?* As you said: Whatever.

*There are plenty of good reasons not to see Gwyneth Paltrow movies or listen to Coldplay, but none of them have anything to do with her comments.

Cisco
12-03-2006, 03:35 PM
Whatever. I'm not upset that she feels this way about America. There are pros and cons about any place in the world. I'm in disbelief that she has the cajones to say this and likely still expect us to shell out $8 for a movie ticket or $15 for her husband's CD.
So what you're saying is, "Whatever. It's not that I'm upset about what she said. It's just that I'm upset about what she said."

Equipoise
12-03-2006, 03:38 PM
I'm in disbelief that she has the cajones to say this and likely still expect us to shell out $8 for a movie ticket or $15 for her husband's CD. Hopefully we're all cultured enough to understand the deeper meanings of their craft.

Maybe she can ask the Dixie Chicks for advice on how to deal with insane reactions to harmless quotes.

Larry Borgia
12-03-2006, 03:42 PM
Which doesn't seem to be at all what she said. It seems like she said she prefers the UK because of X, Y, and Z. That's a perfectly valid position to take and I happen to agree with her. I'd love to live in the UK.

I don't really care much one way or another for Gwenyth, and I really don't like celebrity gossip (or obsession), but FWIW I think Apple is a cool name.

How is saying "The British are much more intelligent and civilized than Americans" not saying that ethnic group X is superior to ethnic group Y. Suppose she had said "The British are much more intelligent and civilized than the Irish."

It's just stupid. Kurt Vonnegut is less intelligent and civilzed than a football hooligan? You're kidding me. Paltrow's an OK actress, but she needs to stick with lines other people write for her.

Rodgers01
12-03-2006, 03:47 PM
How is saying "The British are much more intelligent and civilized than Americans" not saying that ethnic group X is superior to ethnic group Y.Because she's talking about cultures, not ethnic groups. Big difference.

Amazingrace
12-03-2006, 03:48 PM
Wow guys, calm down. Insane reactions? I think that you're taking it way too far Equipoise. I think that it's perfectly logical to say "wha...?" if a star insults a large part of their fan base. It seems pretty bold.

Larry Borgia
12-03-2006, 03:50 PM
Because she's talking about cultures, not ethnic groups. Big difference.
Why is it a big difference? Again, if she replaced "Americans" with "Irish" in her quote, would you still be OK with it?

Equipoise
12-03-2006, 03:52 PM
It's just stupid. Kurt Vonnegut is less intelligent and civilzed than a football hooligan? You're kidding me.

Yes, she's kidding you. May you never make a general sweeing statement without adding all kinds of disclaimers and conditions.


Paltrow's an OK actress, but she needs to stick with lines other people write for her.

A few random quotes from an insignificant interview and you're telling her she should shut up?? This is getting weirder and weirder.

Larry Borgia
12-03-2006, 03:56 PM
Yes, she's kidding you. May you never make a general sweeing statement without adding all kinds of disclaimers and conditions.
I don't make bigoted statements, and if I ever do, I hope I'll quickly apologize for them.




A few random quotes from an insignificant interview and you're telling her she should shut up?? This is getting weirder and weirder.
If someone says something stupid I'll call them on it. What's wrong with that?

Equipoise
12-03-2006, 03:57 PM
general sweeping statement


And yes, insane. Talk of boycottish behavior and intimating that she should keep her mouth shut is insane, much worse than the fit of pique "I didn't like her anyway, she's a poopyhead who gave her daughter a silly name" crap.

Starving Artist
12-03-2006, 03:59 PM
I think part of the problem is that some of us don't think any particular people are more 'intelligent' than any other. People are people and they are just as smart (and, coincidentally, stupid) everywhere.

Hasn't this been a liberal centerpiece for the last fifty years or so -- that no one group or race of people is superior or inferior to any other? I believe this to be so as well, so it smacks of an unjustified elitism (and idiocy, to some of us) when some Hollywood dingbat starts denigrating the American people and American culture in favor of some other allegedly superior (and almost invariably European) people and culture. It's all part and parcel of the 'America sucks' meme which has emanated from Hollywood for the last several decades.

One could just as easily contend (based on cultural sophistication, which is all this is really about) that the French are superior to the English.)

It's really just a matter of taste and opinion. One person's reserved, intelligent Englishman is another's repressed stuffed shirt. The English as a whole are no more intelligent as human beings than Germans, Italians or Figi Islanders.

So it's annoying on two levels when someone like her spouts such nonsense: First, it simply isn't so; and secondly, it smacks of unwarranted elitism and an attempt to appear superior to her countrymen...you know, sort of like the Dixie Chicks. :D

Larry Borgia
12-03-2006, 04:01 PM
general sweeping statement


And yes, insane. Talk of boycottish behavior and intimating that she should keep her mouth shut is insane, much worse than the fit of pique "I didn't like her anyway, she's a poopyhead who gave her daughter a silly name" crap.
Yes, I try not to make general sweeping statements about ethnic (cultural, whatever) groups of people.

I'm saying she said something stupid, that's all. If someone is pissed off because she insulted their country, why are they obligated to support her financially?

rowrrbazzle
12-03-2006, 04:07 PM
Of course, since she's done so much with Hollywood, her perceptions are basically of THAT really narrow part of the USA rather than anything else.Yeah, its funny that the people who are making a big deal about what Gwyneth said are, generally, the very same people who will insist that its silly to care what celebrities think or say about politics and culture...You've missed the point. It's not that we shouldn't care. It's that we shouldn't look to them for expert opinions. This is a perfect example of the value of hers.

Equipoise
12-03-2006, 04:10 PM
If someone says something stupid I'll call them on it. What's wrong with that?

But you have NO idea what all she actually said. You have a few quotes put up in a throwaway gossip column by a writer biased enough to call her "pompous."

If someone is pissed off because she insulted their country, why are they obligated to support her financially?

Don't support her financially, I could give a rat's ass.

Larry Borgia
12-03-2006, 04:12 PM
But you have NO idea what all she actually said. You have a few quotes put up in a throwaway gossip column by a writer biased enough to call her "pompous."
Was she misquoted?



Don't support her financially, I could give a rat's ass.
OK.

Equipoise
12-03-2006, 04:14 PM
How in the world would I know if she was misquoted? Neither of us knows because we're seeing a third-hand source.

Larry Borgia
12-03-2006, 04:21 PM
How in the world would I know if she was misquoted? Neither of us knows because we're seeing a third-hand source.
I doubt the Boston Herald would run a direct quote without checking it. I could be wrong of course. If she was misquoted I'll take back what I said about her.

People say stupid things all the time. This was pretty small beer compared to Mel and Michael, but it still--assuming accuracy--makes her look like a fatuous ninny. Honestly I don't give a rat's ass either, and I'm not going to boycott any movie over this, but I really don't see what's wrong on calling some celebrity on some stupid thing they said.

Rodgers01
12-03-2006, 04:36 PM
Why is it a big difference? Again, if she replaced "Americans" with "Irish" in her quote, would you still be OK with it?I didn't say I was okay with it or not okay with it, I'm just saying there's a difference between criticizing ethnic groups and criticizing cultures. If Paltrow said "I only hang out with people of Anglo-Saxon ethnic stock; keep me away from those mongrel, half-breed Americans and the non-Anglo-Saxon Brits," that would be saying that one ethnic group is superior to others. But she's not saying that: she's saying "This culture, in my opinion, is better than that one." Quite different: cultures, IMHO, are more open to comparison and criticism than are ethnicities, because cultures have values and ideals and priorities and traditions that are open for debate, while ethnicities are just...genetics. Saying, for example, "I don't like inner-city barrio culture because of X, Y, Z" is not the same as saying "I don't like Latino people, no matter who they are or how they act."

Now, whether or not these particular cultural comments she made were accurate, fair, or, simply, polite is another matter. In my opinion, she could have been more polite, and I would have substituted "educated" for "intelligent" and left out the uncivilized bit because it's a word that gets people's blood boiling. But, having lived in both the UK and the US, I think she has some accurate points about the difference between the two countries.

Equipoise
12-03-2006, 04:37 PM
Assuming accuracy, her quotes seem reasonable and interesting to me. Especially this one:

ďI love the English lifestyle, itís not as capitalistic as America,Ē she said. ďPeople donít talk about work and money. They talk about interesting things at dinner.Ē

Unlike some, I don't take her to mean that EVERY dinner at EVERY English household is ALWAYS full of interesting talk, nor that EVERY dinner at EVERY American household is ALWAYS full of talk about work and money. The "often" or even "in general" is implied and I accept her quote as a general observation.

Quiddity Glomfuster
12-03-2006, 07:08 PM
I think that it takes a lot of ego to insult such a large part of her fan base as well as her husband's. and
I'm in disbelief that she has the cajones to say this and likely still expect us to shell out $8 for a movie ticket or $15 for her husband's CD.
It's precisely this kind of 'love every one of us madly or go straight to hell and be tortured forever' attitude that leaves a VERY bad taste in non-Americans' mouths.

Worse, it's the same nation where a restaurant at the LEGISLATURE actually renamed 'French fries' in a hissy fit because France didn't trail along into a disastrous war. It's so juvenile. It's so uncalled-for. It's so unsophisticated.

If you truly wish to be liked and admired, you have to lose that attitude (those of you to whom that applies, anyway).

Do you know how totalitarian regimes come to power and hold power? By condemning all 'outsiders'. Do you know how the Talibans get control of a nation? By persuading the citizens that all who don't agree with them are evil and to be hated. Only nations which allow dissent, dislike, and negative opinions can truly be called democracies. So beware lest ye become the very thing you loathe. (Again, clearly this doesn't apply to all Americans but if the shoe fits...)

Amazingrace
12-03-2006, 07:24 PM
and

It's precisely this kind of 'love every one of us madly or go straight to hell and be tortured forever' attitude that leaves a VERY bad taste in non-Americans' mouths.

Worse, it's the same nation where a restaurant at the LEGISLATURE actually renamed 'French fries' in a hissy fit because France didn't trail along into a disastrous war. It's so juvenile. It's so uncalled-for. It's so unsophisticated.

If you truly wish to be liked and admired, you have to lose that attitude (those of you to whom that applies, anyway).

Do you know how totalitarian regimes come to power and hold power? By condemning all 'outsiders'. Do you know how the Talibans get control of a nation? By persuading the citizens that all who don't agree with them are evil and to be hated. Only nations which allow dissent, dislike, and negative opinions can truly be called democracies. So beware lest ye become the very thing you loathe. (Again, clearly this doesn't apply to all Americans but if the shoe fits...)

Sorry, next time someone tells me that I'm uncivilized I'll be sure to patronize their art. Come on, are you serious? You're likening this to putting the Taliban in power? The TALIBAN? I'm clearly not the one who is insane. Disagreeing with the prestigious Paltrow doesn't mean that I think America is the greatest, rah rah, let me get out my Toby Keith and put a boot in someone's ass. Her remarks (which according to Equipoise were probably taken out of context, seeing how she's taken the time to "learn" about her and how she "doesn't have an ego") were silly to make.

She doesn't have to love America, but to make these generalizing remarks deeming an entire nation less intelligent and civilized leaves a bad taste in my mouth. But apparently I'm the one who's supposed to shut up... and I'm not even telling her to shut up! I am saying I don't agree.

Sublight
12-03-2006, 07:34 PM
I doubt the Boston Herald would run a direct quote without checking it. It's only Monday morning, but I'm will to submit this as a contender for the funniest thing of the week.

Here's what we have:According to the American Foreign Press, the pompous Paltrow said in an interview with Portugalís weekend magazine NS that she prefers Britian to America.

Emphasis mine: if they can't check their own spelling, how much effort do you think they put into checking their quotes?

Anyway, a gossip columnist with multiple axes to grind, writing for a tabloid known for regularly banging the "Hollywood liberals hate America!" drum, is referring to a press report referring to an interview in a foreign language gossip magazine, while also getting in her own dig at British culture ("despite the horrors of British cooking"). I'll consider forming an opinion of Ms. Paltrow's quote when I see footage of her actually saying it.

Doing a bit of googling, I'm not even finding any reference to NS magazine. Anyone know if this is a real publication?

Guinastasia
12-03-2006, 07:57 PM
I have never been able to stand Paltrow-she's always come off as incredibly stuck up and pretentious.

She's also got Cate Blanchette's Oscar sitting on her shelf.

Caridwen
12-03-2006, 08:17 PM
I don't see the big deal about saying she's happier and likes the lifestyle better in one place over another. What's the big deal? I don't see why people are so offended. People move all the time.

She's certainly not the first American that moved out of the country. Is the problem that she actually said what she thinks? Johnny Depp said he likes living in France better. Tina Turner & Shania Twain both moved to Switzerland obviously because they like living there better. What's the big deal?

Are people equally offended when a celebrity from the UK moves here because they say they like the lifestyle better?

I think it's refreshing for a celebrity not to spout what their publicist tells them to say and actually says what they think.

Rubystreak
12-03-2006, 08:17 PM
I think someone really should have a wax statue of her making love to Harriet Tubman commissioned, just to teach her a lesson.

[/Family Guy reference that just aired on TV]

Wendell Wagner
12-03-2006, 08:19 PM
Amazingrace writes (summarizing Gwyneth Paltrow's comments):

> I like living here, because I donít fit into the bad side of American psychology
> The British are much more intelligent and civilized than the Americans
> People donít talk about work and money. They talk about interesting things at
> dinner

This sounds similar to the sort of generalizations that people who've lived in both the U.S. and the U.K. (including me) make about the two countries. It's a little bit sloppily stated, as far as I'm concerned. My personal observations would be as follows: She's not talking about psychology, of course, since that only applies to individual people and not countries. She's trying to explain the differences between American and British culture. She gets some of it right and some of it wrong.

There are differences in American and British culture, and in some ways American culture is worse and in some ways British culture is worse. Now, it may be that the ways in which American culture is worse are more bothersome to her than the ways in which British culture are worse, but that's different from just saying that American culture is worse. If the bad things about American culture bother her more than the bad things about British culture, that's her right. At worse, she may be overgeneralizing, but it's not even clear that she did that. She never explicitly said that American culture is worse, just that the bad parts of it bother her more.

The British are more intelligent and civilized? I don't think so. There are situations in which the British come off as more educated and other situations in which the Americans come off as more educated. Again, the worse that I can say is that she's overgeneralizing. She doesn't know as much about either British or American culture as she thinks she does.

Americans talk more about work and money in ordinary conversation? This is probably true. It doesn't mean that the British are more intelligent. It doesn't even mean that their conversation is more interesting. There are different (unstated) rules about what can be talked about in conversation in the two countries. I can certainly understand why someone would think would find the conversational rules in one country or another more to their taste. This doesn't mean that one culture or another is better.

Gwyneth Paltrow's comments are no more silly or insulting than any other random famous person's comments. She's an actress, not an anthropologist, and I don't expect her comparisons of British and American culture to be very accurate. Why would you expect any famous person to make clever, or even semi-accurate statements most of time? Most of them didn't become famous for their brilliant thought. If I were to go through the published statements of virtually any celebrity, I would undoubtedly be able to rip them to shreds if I had the time to research them. Heck, if I were to go through the collected posts of most SD posters, I could rip most of what they say to shreds if I had the time to research their statements. The fact that most of what most people say is, at best, trivial, and, at worst, fatuous nonsense doesn't mean that most people are evil.

Wendell Wagner
12-03-2006, 08:21 PM
Caridwen writes:

> Tina Turner & Shania Twain both moved to Switzerland obviously because they
> like living there better.

Shania Twain is a Canadian who's married to a Briton.

Caridwen
12-03-2006, 08:31 PM
Yes, but she now lives in Switzerland. My point was they moved to a different country and no one is criticizing them.

Imasquare
12-03-2006, 09:27 PM
Based on my trips to England, that's about right. It's a shame people are threatened by a list like that. God forbid Americans be reminded of how shallow they can be.I was born in England, live in Australia and frequently travel back to England. I have also visited the US several times.

There is no way that I could agree that people in England are more intelligent than those in the US. They are about the same. I wonder if people in the US assume the English are intelligent because they speak with such posh accents?

Ogre
12-03-2006, 09:41 PM
Paltrow is like that douchebag friend we all have who goes to live somewhere else for 6 months, and then comes back talking about nothing except how much better everything is over there, and how much smarter everyone is, and how much they pine for the smallest hint of a breeze from their new favoritest place ever, and how every breath here in this hellhole is a labor and a chore.

Well, good God. Go be happy in Utopia, but just shut the fuck up about it already, huh?

Plan B
12-03-2006, 09:43 PM
Yes, skinhead football hooligans are so much more cultured and intelligent than Americans.

Saying "ethnic group X is better than ethnic group Y" is always stupid.

What he said. I can't improve on it. Except maybe to add that its especially moronic and suspect when you're a member of group Y.

Plan B
12-03-2006, 09:44 PM
I wonder if people in the US assume the English are intelligent because they speak with such posh accents?

Only the really dumb ones.

Caridwen
12-03-2006, 09:47 PM
In all honesty I doubt if she said that or it was a bad translation. The same thing happened with another celeb recently and they printed a retraction.

She's no mental giant, but she's not an idiot.

Equipoise
12-03-2006, 10:04 PM
Well, good God. Go be happy in Utopia, but just shut the fuck up about it already, huh?

There it is again, with the telling her to shut up. Who the hell are you to tell someone else to shut up? You never would have known she said anything at all if the Boston Herald hadn't printed up a bit of an obscure interview in their gossip section and if Frylock hadn't posted in this thread. So a famous person should just shut up when being interviewed, just in case you find out they said something you don't like?

Jesus frickin' Christ, some of you people are bizarre (self-censored, due to the forum).

indierock82
12-04-2006, 12:31 AM
[Hijack] Speaking of foreign nationals living in the US for indetermined amounts of time, how does that work? Case and point: Arnie. An austrian national becomes Mr.Universe then starts making global blockbusters and all of a sudden he's eligible for a gubernatorial post... While other people that contribute to society in more productive ways don't have a chance of getting residency in the US. Would americans rather naturalize movie stars and other people in the spotlight than the common joe schmoe? I ask this because after I get my nursing licence I'd like to come and work in the US for awhile, but don't see how that's going to happen with visas and all that...

Ogre
12-04-2006, 12:42 AM
There it is again, with the telling her to shut up. Who the hell are you to tell someone else to shut up?I'm a guy who wishes people who say ignorant things about entire populations would shut the fuck up (by the way, why do people censor themselves outside the Pit? There's really no need. We're all grown up here.)

Anyhow, do you see Ms. Paltrow in this thread? Have I specifically addressed my comments to her? No? Then I am clearly not "telling her to shut up." I am expressing my wish that she take her "UK is superior" attitude and go live a long and healthy life wherever she wants.

Rodgers01
12-04-2006, 12:55 AM
[Hijack] Speaking of foreign nationals living in the US for indetermined amounts of time, how does that work? Case and point: Arnie. An austrian national becomes Mr.Universe then starts making global blockbusters and all of a sudden he's eligible for a gubernatorial post... While other people that contribute to society in more productive ways don't have a chance of getting residency in the US. Would americans rather naturalize movie stars and other people in the spotlight than the common joe schmoe? I ask this because after I get my nursing licence I'd like to come and work in the US for awhile, but don't see how that's going to happen with visas and all that...
I don't know the full path of Arnold's US citizenship, but he's been married to Maria Shriver (a US citizen) for a while, which automatically made him eligible for US citizenship (if he wasn't one already) and thus eligible for governor. Check out the website of your country's US embassy; they should have information about what visas you might be eligible for.

Equipoise
12-04-2006, 12:58 AM
We're all grown up here.

Really? It's hard to tell. :dubious:

Ogre
12-04-2006, 01:04 AM
Really? It's hard to tell. :dubious:When you run out of arguments, rely on petty, nondirectional insults, eh? Indeed it is hard to tell.

Equipoise
12-04-2006, 01:09 AM
You're right, I stooped. Shame on me.

Odesio
12-04-2006, 01:38 AM
Quite different: cultures, IMHO, are more open to comparison and criticism than are ethnicities, because cultures have values and ideals and priorities and traditions that are open for debate, while ethnicities are just...genetics.


I'm afraid ethnicity has little to do with genetics.

Ethnicity: Perceived differences in culture, national origin, and historical experience by which groups of people are distinguished from others in the same social environment.

Certainly, for some, race can play a role in ethnic identity but it isn't the deciding factor. However for us, generally speaking, one can be American regardless of race or even religion.


Saying, for example, "I don't like inner-city barrio culture because of X, Y, Z" is not the same as saying "I don't like Latino people, no matter who they are or how they act."


You're getting a bit more specific then she did, no? It would be more accurate if you compared Latin culture as a whole versus American culture as a whole in your example. When such comparisons are made I can't help but think that someone is touting the superiority of one group over another. I'm not particularly offended but let's not sugarcoat what she's said.

Marc

Rodgers01
12-04-2006, 02:21 AM
I'm afraid ethnicity has little to do with genetics.


Certainly, for some, race can play a role in ethnic identity but it isn't the deciding factor. However for us, generally speaking, one can be American regardless of race or even religion.Well, you've certainly got me there! All this time I've thought ethnicity was solely the province of racial/genetic differences, not cultural groups. Thank you for correcting me. But even if I got my terminology wrong, I stand by the point I was trying to make: cultural, groups can, IMHO, be validly compared and criticized, without implying racial/genetic discrimination.

You're getting a bit more specific then she did, no? It would be more accurate if you compared Latin culture as a whole versus American culture as a whole in your example. When such comparisons are made I can't help but think that someone is touting the superiority of one group over another. I'm not particularly offended but let's not sugarcoat what she's said.

MarcBut if she is saying that in certain ways she thinks one culture is superior to another...so what? The only offense I see is a certain rudeness in the way she said it, not anything darker, as some people seem to infer.

Quiddity Glomfuster
12-04-2006, 02:43 AM
Sorry, next time someone tells me that I'm uncivilized I'll be sure to patronize their art.

Good. Glad to hear it. It's kind of silly to insist you be loved madly by the people who entertain you.

You're likening this to putting the Taliban in power?

Um. No. I'm pointing out the dangers of refusing to allow criticism and of condemning critics. That's how totalitarians think.


She doesn't have to love America, but to make these generalizing remarks deeming an entire nation less intelligent and civilized leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

I'll only buy that if you've never said anything rude about another nation. If you had as bad a taste in your mouth over the whole 'freedom fries' idiocy and everything that surrounded that sorry situation. In short, if you apply the same standard you demand of her to yourself. In all situations.

Staggerlee
12-04-2006, 04:37 AM
Please take her back! There's a two-for-one offer going, so you can have Chris Martin for free.

(my girlfriend tells me that some years ago, she got off with Chris Martin in the toilets of some club - civilised? pah!)

MrDibble
12-04-2006, 04:38 AM
Shania Twain is a Canadian who's married to a Briton.
Rhodesian-South African, actually.

gredbioz
12-04-2006, 05:46 AM
The British are much more intelligent and civilized than the Americans

In the UK, Crazy Frog's "Axel F" was a #1 single.
In the U.S., it could not get above #50.

SanVito
12-04-2006, 06:05 AM
Honestly people, I can't see why you're all so upset, five minutes ago she was slagging off Britain:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/film/4357650.stm

"Paltrow says she finds the UK's streets are dirty, the weather cold and its customer services "rubbish" in an interview with Marie Claire US edition."

Kal
12-04-2006, 06:46 AM
I'm writing a strongly worded letter to the Home Secretary, demanding that the bitch be deported. And I will never watch one of her films again!

Kal
12-04-2006, 06:48 AM
She is spot on about customer services, mind.

jjimm
12-04-2006, 07:02 AM
Start a petition to the Prime Minister (http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/juggle/)!

And she's right about the weather, too. Bitch. I will never buy one of her T-shirts/Magic 8 Balls/Donuts/Movies (strike out as appropriate) again either.

Kal
12-04-2006, 07:17 AM
One cannot fault you for proceeding with such a course of action, dear chap. This is, after all, the Greatest Country In The World and these damn foreign Johnnies should start to realise that and desist with the hateful slurs.

Kick her arse back to the States, I say. Let's see how she likes having to put up with their hellish 'air conditioning' and 'plumbing', whatever the fuck they are.

eleanorigby
12-04-2006, 08:22 AM
"Paltrow says she finds the UK's streets are dirty, the weather cold and its customer services "rubbish" in an interview with Marie Claire US edition." (emphasis mine)

Well, I think this clears up the question as to her stellar intelligence..... :rolleyes:

I prefer the UK to America, too-I like their humor, their TV shows are appropriately silly (and don't take themselves too seriously), their news broadcasts, for all they bitch about them, contain more content than any over here, I LIKE the weather there (no, I'm not on medication), and I even like the food (for the most part).

But it is always good to come home-even if that means putting up with the relentless self-absorption and hard sell and shallow dinner conversation that is America.

But I'm not famous, so no one cares. <heavy sigh>

Edward The Head
12-04-2006, 08:25 AM
Kick her arse back to the States, I say. Let's see how she likes having to put up with their hellish 'air conditioning' and 'plumbing', whatever the fuck they are.

'Plumbing', as you call it, is very civilized over here, we get both hot water and cold water out of the same faucet.

Wendell Wagner
12-04-2006, 08:44 AM
Caridwen wrote:

> Tina Turner & Shania Twain both moved to Switzerland obviously because they
> like living there better.

I wrote:

> Shania Twain is a Canadian who's married to a Briton.

MrDibble writes:

> Rhodesian-South African, actually.

O.K., this is an example of how hard it is to say what the nationality of anybody is. Shania Twain was born and grew up in Canada. Eventually she moved to Nashville for a while as her country singing career took off. (I can't find anything in my quick search about how long she lived in Nashville.) There she met Robert Lange, a record producer who was living in England. He had been born in Northern Rhodesia (which is now Zambia) though. Eventually they bought a place in Switzerland and moved there. Just recently they bought a place in New Zealand and have put their home in Switzerland on sale. I have no idea what the citizenship of either of these people is now.

Hampshire
12-04-2006, 08:45 AM
I get really tired hearing actors and actresses spout off about things they have really no knowledge of.
These people are ACTRESSES and ACTORS. They've studied ACTING.
They have not studied history, politics, psychology, medicine, literature.

Paltrow saying she knows an intelligent conversation when she hears one is like Tom Cruise saying he knows the history of psychology.
The only thing I give them credit for is ACTING like they know what they're talking about because thats what they do for a living, ACT.

Wendell Wagner
12-04-2006, 08:58 AM
Hampshire writes:

> I get really tired hearing actors and actresses spout off about things they have
> really no knowledge of.

Most people spout off about things that they know nothing about, including most people on this board. For those of you in this thread who haven't lived in both the U.s. and the U.K., you are less qualified to talk about the differences between the two countries than Gwyneth Paltrow is. Paltrow is clearly no anthropologist and no sociologist, given the superficiality of her observations. Neither are most of the people in this thread.

Gangster Octopus
12-04-2006, 10:41 AM
What's so wrong about talking about work?

And at least in my social circle we don't spend a lot of time talking about money, but I suppose it comes up, maybe because it is a buig part of our lives, trying to pay bills and such. But, of course, I would hardly think her experience is similar to the ordinary American. I mean do you think there are a lot of conversations in her circle that would go on about how, "Man, I just took my car in and it is going to cost me $700 to get that work done. Sheesh, don't need that right now."

I am reminded of the scene in The Aviator where Howard Hughes is having dinner with Kate Hepburn's family, a byunch of pretentious, stuck-up, self important socialites who go on and on about art and such. Hughes finds it all pretty distasteful and leaves.

Duke of Rat
12-04-2006, 10:43 AM
I'm a guy who wishes people who say ignorant things about entire populations would shut the fuck up (by the way, why do people censor themselves outside the Pit? There's really no need. We're all grown up here.)

Anyhow, do you see Ms. Paltrow in this thread? Have I specifically addressed my comments to her? No? Then I am clearly not "telling her to shut up." I am expressing my wish that she take her "UK is superior" attitude and go live a long and healthy life wherever she wants.

But see, you're from Alabama (or live in Alabama) and EVERYBODY knows that people in the southern US (or red states) are less intelligent than people from the northern US (or blue states). It must be a bitter pill for them to swallow to learn that even blue staters are less intelligent than the British. Must be so, Gwyneth said so.

SanVito
12-04-2006, 10:59 AM
'Plumbing', as you call it, is very civilized over here, we get both hot water and cold water out of the same faucet.

Next you'll be telling me that you have shower heads that do that too.

Kal
12-04-2006, 11:15 AM
That's just crazy talk. Water should come out of seperate taps, with the cold supply coming from 150 year old lead pipes that leak a lot.

Next you'll be saying that your drinking water is clear and fresh, not nice and chewy because of all the sediment.

Ogre
12-04-2006, 01:07 PM
But see, you're from Alabama (or live in Alabama) and EVERYBODY knows that people in the southern US (or red states) are less intelligent than people from the northern US (or blue states). It must be a bitter pill for them to swallow to learn that even blue staters are less intelligent than the British. Must be so, Gwyneth said so.Say whut? I'm not sure I understood you, so I'll just whup yer ass to be safe, OK?

Odesio
12-04-2006, 02:06 PM
Well, you've certainly got me there! All this time I've thought ethnicity was solely the province of racial/genetic differences, not cultural groups. Thank you for correcting me.


You're not alone. For many "ethnic" is synonymous with race and is used interchangeably. I used to think hispanic was a racial group until I was set straight.


But even if I got my terminology wrong, I stand by the point I was trying to make: cultural, groups can, IMHO, be validly compared and criticized, without implying racial/genetic discrimination.


Sure, I agree, but what you have instead is saying that one ethnic group is superior to another. I think we can all agree that Britons and Americans are two seperate and distinctive groups of people, right?


But if she is saying that in certain ways she thinks one culture is superior to another...so what? The only offense I see is a certain rudeness in the way she said it, not anything darker, as some people seem to infer.

She said the British were more civilized than Americans. How could anyone view that as anything other than insulting?

Marc

jjimm
12-04-2006, 02:25 PM
She said the British were more civilized than Americans. How could anyone view that as anything other than insulting?I agree wholeheartedly. We're a bunch of drooling savages. No wonder you're insulted.

Odesio
12-04-2006, 03:08 PM
I agree wholeheartedly. We're a bunch of drooling savages. No wonder you're insulted.

Just because I want to grind her bones to make my bread doesn't make me a barbarian.

I said her comment was insulting but I didn't say I felt personally insulted by it. It isn't like I'm going to lay away at nights because someone half way across the globe things I'm not as civilized as an Englishman.

Marc

Odesio
12-04-2006, 03:10 PM
Talk about missing the point of someone's post! I didn't realize jjimm was making a little joke.

Marc

jjimm
12-04-2006, 04:22 PM
In seriousness, though, why the instant perception of insult? If an expatriate were to say to me, e.g. "the French [or the Italians] are much more civilised than the British", I'd tend to agree with them, based on personal observation. I wouldn't instantly interpet the comment as insulting.

PunditLisa
12-04-2006, 04:41 PM
I don't have much of an opinion about her except that I cannot believe Estee Lauder replaced someone as lovely as Elizabeth Hurley with Gwyneth Paltrow for their perfume ads. IMO Paltrow doesn't hold a candle to Hurley in the looks department. (As a bonus, it's reported that Hurley could belch with the best of 'em. )

Clearly I'm not a European because I'm shallow as a dinner plate.

Starving Artist
12-04-2006, 04:57 PM
Gwyneth is offering an explanation. It seems heartfelt, and, surprisingly, I'm inclined to believe her. Here 'tis. (http://people.aol.com/people/article/0,26334,1565719,00.html)

Caridwen
12-04-2006, 05:22 PM
Thanks S.A. I had a hard time believing she actually said that.

Larry Borgia
12-04-2006, 06:25 PM
I doubt the Boston Herald would run a direct quote without checking it.

It's only Monday morning, but I'm will to submit this as a contender for the funniest thing of the week.

OK, you got me. I don't know Boston Papers, and I must have been thinking of the more respectable Globe. That said I wonder if even a tabloid would directly quote someone saying something they didn't say. I'm not a lawyer, but ISTM that would open you up for all sorts of legal trouble.

And I appreciate Ms. Paltrow's clarification and explanation. She's back in my good graces. (Something I'm sure is very important to her. ;) )

Odesio
12-04-2006, 11:06 PM
In seriousness, though, why the instant perception of insult? If an expatriate were to say to me, e.g. "the French [or the Italians] are much more civilised than the British", I'd tend to agree with them, based on personal observation. I wouldn't instantly interpet the comment as insulting.

I'm reminded of a 19th century map one might find in a U.S. school. It listed most of the United States and western Europe as civilized, large portions of Asia and the Middle East as near civilized, large portions of Africa and Asia (Siberia/Mongolia) as uncivilized, and there were some portions of the map labelled barbarian. What the difference between barbarian and uncivilized was I don't know.

Quite frankly, I don't see how anyone can interpret that comment as anything other than insulting. Why would you agree that France is more "civilized" than England? What does that mean to you?

Marc

Equipoise
12-04-2006, 11:55 PM
Gwyneth is offering an explanation. It seems heartfelt, and, surprisingly, I'm inclined to believe her. Here 'tis. (http://people.aol.com/people/article/0,26334,1565719,00.html)

It's disgusting how people used crap (made up crap, at that!) from a gossip rag to show what fucking "patriots" they are and talk trash about a decent fellow human being because they're so freaking shallow they can't think for themselves or think in anything but black and white.

I saw the excellent Shut Up and Sing for the 2nd time tonight, and was reminded of this brouhaha. Some people ought to be ashamed of themselves, because their thought processes during this truly trivial matter show a deeper, far more disturbing psychology of zenophobia and over-zealous nationalism.

"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel" - Samuel Johnson

Quiddity Glomfuster
12-05-2006, 12:04 AM
It's disgusting how people used crap (made up crap, at that!) from a gossip rag to show what fucking "patriots" they are and talk trash about a decent fellow human being because they're so freaking shallow they can't think for themselves or think in anything but black and white.

I saw the excellent Shut Up and Sing for the 2nd time tonight, and was reminded of this brouhaha. Some people ought to be ashamed of themselves, because their thought processes during this truly trivial matter show a deeper, far more disturbing psychology of zenophobia and over-zealous nationalism.

"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel" - Samuel Johnson

Standing Ovation!

What has happened the last few years that saying anything negative about America or Americans has become a death-by-hanging offense? And yet Americans seem to have few qualms about slamming anyone from anyplace else on the planet. Cripes.

Starving Artist
12-05-2006, 01:29 AM
It's disgusting how people used crap (made up crap, at that!) from a gossip rag to show what fucking "patriots" they are and talk trash about a decent fellow human being because they're so freaking shallow they can't think for themselves or think in anything but black and white.

Oh, I don't know. Seems to me things actually transpired the way they should in a fair and just world.

She was either lied about or she misspoke herself while attempting to speak Spanish during a press conference. The remarks she allegedly made were insulting and inflamatory (as I'm sure many of her supporters here would agree had they been spoken by an American and aimed at some other country). She set the record straight with a believable and heartfelt explanation, this explanation was publicized, and now she's off the hook.

I don't see where anything at all is accomplished by trying to blame people who don't know her for believing she might have said these things. She does have something of a record for speaking her mind in such a way as to sometimes be offensive (IIRC, she offended the British herself a while back with negative comments about British men and the weather and dirty streets of London), so it wasn't exactly a shock for most of us to hear she had said these things. Then, when you combine that with the well-known penchant on the part of Hollywood liberals for proselytising that Europe=superior; America=inferior, it becomes even more credible that she would say these things.

But, like I said, she cleared up the misunderstanding in a gracious, credible and heartfelt way...and I, for one, think more highly of her now than I did before this whole brouhaha began.

SanVito
12-05-2006, 03:48 AM
Gwyneth is offering an explanation. It seems heartfelt, and, surprisingly, I'm inclined to believe her. Here 'tis. (http://people.aol.com/people/article/0,26334,1565719,00.html)

Now, don't you all feel ashamed of yourselves.

Elendil's Heir
12-05-2006, 09:18 AM
Here's the CNN.com story on her clarification. What have we learned, class? Don't give an interview in a language you're not completely fluent in.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/SHOWBIZ/Movies/12/05/people.paltrow.reut/index.html

Equipoise
12-05-2006, 11:25 AM
Here's the CNN.com story on her clarification. What have we learned, class? Don't give an interview in a language you're not completely fluent in.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/SHOWBIZ/Movies/12/05/people.paltrow.reut/index.html

I would hope that the lesson would be don't believe everything that comes out of a gossip rag just because it boosts your (general, to whom it applies) own patriotic ego to believe it. That people do deserve the benefit of the doubt, and that a lot of people know fuck all about Gweneth Paltrow but are more than willing to spew their uninformed opinions all over the place.

Elendil's Heir
12-05-2006, 11:51 AM
Sure, that's not a bad lesson either. ;)

Larry Borgia
12-05-2006, 12:00 PM
I would hope that the lesson would be don't believe everything that comes out of a gossip rag just because it boosts your (general, to whom it applies) own patriotic ego to believe it. That people do deserve the benefit of the doubt, and that a lot of people know fuck all about Gweneth Paltrow but are more than willing to spew their uninformed opinions all over the place.
Have you thought about a new user name, Equipoise?

Sunrazor
12-05-2006, 12:04 PM
Maybe this is a bit of a hijack, but I do get tired of going to parties, dinners, etc., and having the conversation dominated by shop talk. It isn't surprising that groups of people gather because of a common denominator, but it seems that denominator then dominates all conversation, and usually in the form of bitching. I've had the experience with college faculty, grad students, journalists and lawyers -- all of whom, one would think, would be capable of coversations far more erudite than the Draconian policies being handed down by the dunderheads in charge at work/school/court. If the Brits are better conversationalists than this, then my hat's off to 'em, and I wish I could join Lady Gwyneth in merrye aulde England. At least for one good dinner party, anyway.

But more civilized? I don't think so. (Ever read 'Heart of Darkness", Gwyn?)

Equipoise
12-05-2006, 12:55 PM
Have you thought about a new user name, Equipoise?

No.

jjimm
12-05-2006, 02:57 PM
But more civilized? I don't think so. (Ever read 'Heart of Darkness", Gwyn?)What, that fictional account of century-old British colonialism by a Polish American loosely based on his travels in the Belgian Congo? :confused:

MGibson, I think on average French and Italian people (and Spanish and Greeks for that matter) have a better work/life balance than us Brits. They have a better appreciation of food. They have a better appreciation of fine arts. They can drink and appreciate fine wines without getting plastered drunk and getting into a fight. Personally I think that more civilized than us. If someone said about us what Gwyn said about you, I'd go "yeah, guess she's right".

What I don't understand is why you think such a comment is an "insult". That makes no sense, unless you consider the British way of life "less civilized" than the American - the same way I might be "insulted" if someone compared the UK to, say, Somalia. If, as I'm sure you'll agree, you're only "insulted" because it's a negative comparison of equals, then can't you agree that it's just a matter of perception?

The above possibly negated by the withdrawal of her comment, but still.

Starving Artist
12-05-2006, 03:48 PM
The English as a whole are no more intelligent as human beings than Germans, Italians or Figi Islanders.
BWAHAHAHA...

And I'll bet that nearly all of them can properly spell Fiji, as well. Sometimes my fingers have a life of their own. :D

Odesio
12-05-2006, 04:12 PM
If, as I'm sure you'll agree, you're only "insulted" because it's a negative comparison of equals, then can't you agree that it's just a matter of perception?


It's always just a matter of perception. I just happen to perceive calling another group "less civilized" to be an insult.

Marc

Pashnish Ewing
12-05-2006, 04:17 PM
Then, when you combine that with the well-known penchant on the part of Hollywood liberals for proselytising that Europe=superior; America=inferior, it becomes even more credible that she would say these things..I disagree about the well known penhant part. I guess it depends on your definition of America=inferior.

Syntropy
12-05-2006, 04:28 PM
It's always just a matter of perception. I just happen to perceive calling another group "less civilized" to be an insult.

Marc
As some clear headed person said upthread, I think it really boils down to the social circles in which you move. If you're exposed from a young age to high level movie executives, models, producers, music execs, agents, etc., then yes, you'll more than likely hear a lot of conversations about money and work and fewer "civilized" discussions.

Wendell Wagner
12-06-2006, 04:43 AM
Starving Artist writes:

> Then, when you combine that with the well-known penchant on the part of
> Hollywood liberals for proselytising that Europe=superior; America=inferior, it
> becomes even more credible that she would say these things.

There is no such penchant. There are times when any American visiting or living in Europe (or any European visiting or living in the U.S.) makes offhand observations about the differences in American and European culture. In general, these are no more than offhand comments by someone who doesn't have the background to make more precise comparisons. Trying to read deep meanings in these comments is a waste of time. Often these Americans visiting or living in Europe are actors (and they don't particularly have to be liberal).

Have you *ever* visited or lived in Europe? Have you *ever* talked with Americans just back from Europe? All of them spend a lot of time making half-baked comments comparing the two places. Sometimes these comments are stupid criticisms of Europe based on too little evidence. Sometimes they are stupid criticisms of the U.S. based on too little evidence. I wouldn't take an actor's comments any more seriously than I would take those of any random American tourist just back from Europe.

Wolfian
12-06-2006, 06:47 AM
(emphasis mine)

Well, I think this clears up the question as to her stellar intelligence..... :rolleyes:

"The weather cold" is a perfectly cromulent phrase. There is an implied "is" between "weather" and "cold." You normally see that construction in lists (such as she was making) and newspaper headlines ("London [is] ready for the Olympics").

Just a friendly grammar lesson.

athelas
12-06-2006, 07:12 AM
There is no such penchant. There are times when any American visiting or living in Europe (or any European visiting or living in the U.S.) makes offhand observations about the differences in American and European culture.

Yes; curious how when that sort of thing comes out of the mouth of a Hollywood elite, it always happens to be disparaging towards Americans, except when interpreted by their most zealous apologists.

Wendell Wagner
12-06-2006, 10:32 AM
athelas writes:

> Yes; curious how when that sort of thing comes out of the mouth of a
> Hollywood elite, it always happens to be disparaging towards Americans,
> except when interpreted by their most zealous apologists.

No, their comments aren't always disparging towards Americans. It's just that conservatives dig through their comments and quote only the disparging ones. That's how you prove your points - by selective quotation. I'm hardly an apologist for actors. I think that a lot of them are airheads and nearly all of them aren't worth listening to.

Starving Artist
12-06-2006, 10:51 AM
No, we're not digging through her comments...we're addressing them in toto.

You and her other apologists in this thread are the ones engaging in selectivism.

She was alleged to have said that the British are more intelligent and civilized than Americans. It's curious to me (well, maybe not so much) that the focus of her reported comments seems to have settled conveniently on the question of culture and civilization...which can at least be intellectually debated...and ignores the larger issue of her supposed comments regarding Americans' inferior intelligence, which to me is the greater and more egregious (and more foolish) of her alleged comments.

Further, I have no doubt that should anyone make a similar comment disparaging either the intelligence or civilization of some other culture or people as compared to the U.S., he/she would be roundly disparaged around here by the very same people who are claiming no harm, no foul regarding what Gwyneth was alleged to have said about Americans.

Wendell Wagner
12-06-2006, 10:19 PM
Starving Artist writes:

> Further, I have no doubt that should anyone make a similar comment
> disparaging either the intelligence or civilization of some other culture or people
> as compared to the U.S., he/she would be roundly disparaged around here by
> the very same people who are claiming no harm, no foul regarding what
> Gwyneth was alleged to have said about Americans.

You have no doubt that that would happen? You mean that you've seen such things happen before many times? O.K., give me a dozen examples of cases where someone disparaged the intelligence or civilization of some non-American culture and then liberals disparged those people.

> Yes; curious how when that sort of thing comes out of the mouth of a
> Hollywood elite, it always happens to be disparaging towards Americans,
> except when interpreted by their most zealous apologists.

Always? Always? That's a whole lot of times. According to you there are a whole lot of Hollywood liberals. Give me a hundred examples of statements by Hollywood lliberals who have said disparaging things about Americans.

Larry Borgia
12-06-2006, 11:07 PM
Well it's too late for her now, now that her head's in a box on Stephen Colbert's bookshelf. :eek:

Starving Artist
12-06-2006, 11:18 PM
Starving Artist writes:

> Further, I have no doubt that should anyone make a similar comment
> disparaging either the intelligence or civilization of some other culture or people
> as compared to the U.S., he/she would be roundly disparaged around here by
> the very same people who are claiming no harm, no foul regarding what
> Gwyneth was alleged to have said about Americans.

You have no doubt that that would happen? Yes. You mean that you've seen such things happen before many times? Nope, never said it. O.K., give me a dozen examples of cases where someone disparaged the intelligence or civilization of some non-American culture and then liberals disparged those people.:: thinks for a second :: Nah.

Nice try, but I'm afraid you're gonna have to go put words in someone else's mouth and see if you can get a rebuttal. I've got better things to do.

>

Yes; curious how when that sort of thing comes out of the mouth of a
> Hollywood elite, it always happens to be disparaging towards Americans,
> except when interpreted by their most zealous apologists.

/quote]Always? Always? That's a whole lot of times. According to you there are a whole lot of Hollywood liberals. Give me a hundred examples of statements by Hollywood lliberals who have said disparaging things about Americans.But on second thought, and seeing as how you seem to be making a habit of this, I wanna play after all. How's about this...you answer similar demands, only for a change of pace I'll only demand examples regarding things you actually said? Sound like fun? Okay, here goes...

Wendell Wagner writes:

Have you *ever* talked with Americans just back from Europe? All of them spend a lot of time making half-baked comments comparing the two places.

All of them? All of them? Give me 500 examples of people coming back from Europe and spending time making half-baked comments comparing the two places...and don't forget, not a single returnee can be shown not to have made such comments.

Wendell Wagner writes:

It's just that conservatives dig through their comments and quote only the disparging ones.

Conservatives do that? All of them? And no liberals do? Hah! I'd like 300 examples of conservatives digging through their opponents comments and quoting only the disparaging ones, and further I'd like 1,000 cites (since this is something liberals apparently never do) of liberals arguing every point raised by their opponents without cherry picking the ones they want to address.

Wendell Wagner writes:

That's how you prove your points - by selective quotation.

The only way? It's the only way? Well then, since that's the only way we prove our points, how about only 100 examples of a conservative here proving his point only by selective quotation. Shouldn't be too hard. (Oh, and while you're at it, perhaps you could acknowledge that you did this very same thing yourself when you chose to zero in on Paltrow's alleged comments regarding the comparative civilization between the two countries while ignoring the more salient point of her [so-called] comments stating that the British were much more intelligent than Americans?)

Now for the coup de gr‚ce:

See how silly you look acting like this? Do you think I truly skewered you good with my silly interpretations of your words and demands for cites? Maybe it's just my practical conservative nature, but when I hear people speaking of their beliefs, opinions and observations, I'm inclined to take them as such and only ask for cites when a factual and definitive proof actually exists. Perhaps you would do well to do the same.

Wendell Wagner
12-07-2006, 09:04 AM
You are the one who's making the claim about what Hollywood liberals always say, Starving Artist. Either you know this because you've read lots of examples of this, or you have no examples of this, and you only make this claim because your favorite conservative commentator makes this claim and you don't bother to look for evidence of anything he or she says. Do you or do you not have a lot of examples of Hollywood liberals making disparaging comments about Americans?

Starving Artist
12-07-2006, 10:53 AM
You are the one who's making the claim about what Hollywood liberals always say, Starving Artist. Since you're the one dancing on the head of a pin and trying to make an issue out of the use of the word "always", kindly point to where I said such a thing.

Either you know this because you've read lots of examples of this...Or, had I made such a claim, it might also have been the result of forty years of observation--not only of things in print but on talk shows, at this or that rally, and comments/implications made during televised interviews.

...or you have no examples of this and you only make this claim because your favorite conservative commentator makes this claim and you don't bother to look for evidence of anything he or she says. And who would that be, Wendell? I await your answer with bated breath as it will give me an excellent opportunity to illustrate your proclivity for jumping to erroneous conclusions and then treating those conclusions as fact, but I'm afraid it'll be awhile before I can respond as I have a rather busy day ahead.

Cheers.

Wendell Wagner
12-07-2006, 11:15 PM
Starving Artist writes:

> Or, had I made such a claim, it might also have been the result of forty years of
> observation--not only of things in print but on talk shows, at this or that rally,
> and comments/implications made during televised interviews.

Forty years of observation, and yet you can't cite a single example.