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View Full Version : So Should Chicago Pull Grossman or Not?


Operation Ripper
12-03-2006, 08:12 PM
Linky (http://www.suntimes.com/sports/football/bears/158671,120306bearwin.article), before his "performance" today he was rated 21st out of 30 QBs. (http://www.nfl.com/stats/leaders/NFL/PRAT/2006/regular) Don't know what he will rank tomorrow. Griese offer anything to justify switch? :dubious:

brianjedi
12-03-2006, 08:14 PM
They've won their division with him, so he can't be too bad.

I'm more inclined to blame today's showing on the weather, since Brad Johnson wasn't exactly setting the world ablaze under center for the Vikings.

drm
12-03-2006, 08:26 PM
The only thing I really know about Griese is that he scored really high on the QB IQ test that they do. He was run out of Denver and I don't really know why as I'm not a Denver fan and I don't really pay attention to them. The only thing I can come up with is that he wasn't John Elway...he has a career QB rating of 84.2 which isn't too bad.

Chicago has essentially wrapped up the NFC and sexy Rexy has played like ass the past month or so. Why not give Grossman a break and throw in Brian Griese before the games get too important? The worst thing that could happen is that Brian Griese plays well and you have a quarterback controversy come playoff time. I don't really think that's a bad thing.

As you can tell, I'm not one of these people that thinks you owe something to the starting quarterback.

Snooooopy
12-03-2006, 08:44 PM
He DID manage to avoid a 0.0 quarterback rating for the day. What more could you ask for?

asterion
12-03-2006, 08:56 PM
He DID manage to avoid a 0.0 quarterback rating for the day. What more could you ask for?I didn't even realize it was possible to get a 1.3 rating (or whatever that decimal was.) I figured the rating had a bottom floor higher than 0, like in the 20s or something.

some white dude
12-03-2006, 08:58 PM
IIRC, Griese had a decent year going last year in Tampa Bay before getting injured. I think they should take a look at him. With their defense, they should only need a barely competent QB to go far in the playoffs, but Grossman just hasn't fit that description recently.

asterion
12-03-2006, 09:08 PM
I'm sorry, that should be a 2.8 rating. More than twice as good as I thought I had heard.

Frostillicus
12-03-2006, 09:14 PM
Grossman was flat out gross today, man. It reminded of the glory days with Chad Hutchinson and Craig Krenzel.

Snooooopy
12-03-2006, 09:20 PM
I'm sorry, that should be a 2.8 rating. More than twice as good as I thought I had heard.

It was 1.3. I do recall the 2.8 figure being flashed on the screen, but that was before he missed on yet another pass.

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/columnists/cs-061203morrissey,1,831638.column?coll=cs-bears-headlines

Lips_Obsession
12-04-2006, 01:10 PM
I didn't get to see the game here in Cleveland (where we have another champion QB...) but I think Rex got lucky in the early part of the year.... Give Griese a chance to get a couple games under his belt before the playoffs start. God knows he could use the practice.

Marley23
12-04-2006, 01:17 PM
Is there any reason to believe Griese would do better than Grossman? He's had several chances to be a starter. The Bears have the division locked up and they will probably have homefield advantage, so I think they would be well-served to let Grossman keep going. If he sucks for two more weeks, maybe they'd have to think about a change, but there's no urgency right now.

Enginerd
12-04-2006, 01:33 PM
Grossman has been playing incredibly inconsistently, but that's different from playing consistently badly. The only way for a QB to get more consistent is with experience. Grossman's play at the beginning of the year indicated that he has some potential, but it has to be developed.

The question for the Bears is whether they think Rex is the man. If they think he is, they should play him, especially now that they've already clinched their division. Get him as much experience as you can, because that's the only way he'll get better. The more he plays in the regular season, the better he'll do in the playoffs.

If they don't think he's their guy (I don't think he should be), Griese gives them a better chance to win.

Is there any reason to believe Griese would do better than Grossman? He's had several chances to be a starter. The Bears have the division locked up and they will probably have homefield advantage, so I think they would be well-served to let Grossman keep going. If he sucks for two more weeks, maybe they'd have to think about a change, but there's no urgency right now.
Griese's a better starter than a lot of the guys in the league. I think he's gotten a raw deal - he was run out of Denver for not being John Elway. His biggest drawback is that he's kind of fragile - he's never played a full 16 game season. Still, take a look at his career stats here (http://profootballreference.com/players/GrieBr00.htm). His career passer rating is 84.9 - that would put him 12th in the league right now. Grossman's rating for this year is 72.0 - 26th.

Lips_Obsession
12-07-2006, 11:29 AM
Weren't most of Grossman's "good" games this year against weak teams early this year?

Wee Bairn
12-07-2006, 11:44 AM
They are 10-2 in spite of him, not because of him. The last seven weeks he has been worse than Micheal Vick. You owe it to the team, organization and fans to at least see what Griese can do in this offense. You will not win meaningful playoff games with that kind of production from the QB, unless the defense shuts everyone out. Lovie Smith cannot allow his feelings to cloud his judgement- being loyal to Grossman could cost him his job. The comments by Urlacher after the game clearly show that the defense is frustrated and continued poor play from the QB may cause a huge rift between the offense and defense. Yes, the Ravens won the Super Bowl with Trent Dilfer, an average quarterback at best, but Dilfer did not make the big mistakes Rexy is making, and Jamal Lewis was a much more productive back that year than the current Bears backs.

Lochdale
12-07-2006, 11:53 AM
Was at Sunday's game and Grossman was atrocious. The Bears just happen to have an amazing defense but if they play a team with a real running game then I think they are in trouble.

The NFC is so crap though that they should make it to the Superbowl.

If they need to rely on Grossman well then I don't think it will happen. He has been wildly inconsistent though he was great against Seattle who are one of the better NFC teams...not that that is saying much!

Cluricaun
12-07-2006, 12:07 PM
I totally agree that Rex needs time to develop into a better quarterback; itís the only way to learn the game. However I also think that as far as our playoff/Super bowl hopes go, we donít have that time to offer him right now.

The real decision as I see it is does the Lovie Smith/McCaskey Front Office think that this level of overall play is sustainable for next season, because leaving Grossman in is essentially throwing in the towel as far as serious competition is concerned. Rex really isnít doing anything more than Kyle Orton did last year, which is not screw it up so badly that the defense and special teams canít fix it.

Griese needs to come in now, get used to the offense in a real time situation so that he can do the same preventative job that Rex does, just without all the INTs.

Gangster Octopus
12-07-2006, 12:11 PM
Look, all the Bears need to do is punt on first down every time.

lieu
12-07-2006, 12:21 PM
They're playing indoors this week. If he sucks even within the confines of a maintained environment then yeah, can his butt.

Dumbguy
12-07-2006, 02:29 PM
I don't see the upside in Grossman. They keep saying he needs playing time, but Rivers and Romo are completely outclassing him, and Losman, Frye, and Leinart are all playing better than Grossman, even on bad teams.

HoboStew
12-07-2006, 02:57 PM
I dunno, changing QBs at this stage of the game is risky. If you pull Grossman, you undermine his confidence. If Griese doesn't pan out (and lets not forget, other than Muhsin Muhammad the bears don't have a single offensive player that I'd describe as 'above average') then you are really in trouble. I'd let Grossman finish the season, for good or for ill, then reevaluate the situation in the offseason.

Marley23
12-07-2006, 03:05 PM
Lovie Smith cannot allow his feelings to cloud his judgement- being loyal to Grossman could cost him his job.
I think it's more likely that Smith and Bears management are reluctant to give up on Grossman completely. It's his first full season. I agree that Grossman isn't up to Trent Dilfer's level.
They keep saying he needs playing time, but Rivers and Romo are completely outclassing him, and Losman, Frye, and Leinart are all playing better than Grossman, even on bad teams.
With the possible exception of Frye in Cleveland - just because I don't know about the Browns' production - I would say that all of those QBs have more offensive weapons than Grossman does.

Enginerd
12-07-2006, 03:40 PM
I think it's more likely that Smith and Bears management are reluctant to give up on Grossman completely. It's his first full season. I agree that Grossman isn't up to Trent Dilfer's level.
They're sure not helping him with their playcalling, though. Against the Pats, they called as many passes as they did rushing plays. The Bears were never behind by more than 7 points, and Jones and Benson were averaging about 4.5 yards a carry. There's no reason to have Grossman slinging the ball against a 3-4 defense that's tough for veteran QBs to figure out - pound the ball on the ground. It takes time, sure, but you're only down 1 score.

Ellis Dee
12-07-2006, 05:00 PM
Grossman has been playing incredibly inconsistently, but that's different from playing consistently badly. The only way for a QB to get more consistent is with experience. Grossman's play at the beginning of the year indicated that he has some potential, but it has to be developed.

The question for the Bears is whether they think Rex is the man. If they think he is, they should play him, especially now that they've already clinched their division. Get him as much experience as you can, because that's the only way he'll get better. The more he plays in the regular season, the better he'll do in the playoffs.They roasted Grossman on NFL Live the other day. Totally killed him, and they even used game film as evidence.

As somebody else pointed out, the early successes (and great passer ratings) were mostly against crappy teams. Worse than that, though, was they dissected some film from those earlier games. They showed examples of Rex heaving it up into triple coverage in the end zone, resulting in Moose coming up with a spectacular catch.

According to what they showed and explained, Rex is exactly the same guy now as he was in the early part of the season. He's making the same bonehead decisions and bad throws he's always made. The difference is that he got remarkably lucky in the early games when his receivers bailed him out. That is an iffy proposition at best against bad teams; against good teams it's certain disaster.

The poor showings he's had against bad teams (Arizona, Miami) is a simple regression to the mean where his iffy bad decisions and throws came up snake eyes enough to offset the lucky breaks early on. Basically, Fido is a bust.

--------------------------------------

I find him interesting in the context of another ongoing debate I've engaged in, and that's the "sit on the bench" formula for success. I expected Rivers to be good in San Diego because it is obvious to me that sitting on the bench a couple years is a surefire way to get the most out of a young QB. I call it the Chad Pennington effect. The Chad, Marc Bulger, Carson Palmer, Tony Romo, Philip Rivers; the list is quite long with success stories.

Conversely, I've asked before for a single example of a QB that sat on the bench for a couple years, came in and struggled like a rookie, and then later went on to be successful. Nobody has ever been able to come up with one. Will Grossman be the first? I doubt it. At this point in his career, he is what he is. And it ain't pretty.

Dumbguy
12-07-2006, 08:08 PM
With the possible exception of Frye in Cleveland - just because I don't know about the Browns' production - I would say that all of those QBs have more offensive weapons than Grossman does.Buffalo, Cleveland, and Arizona are 29th, 30th, and 32nd in the league in rushing. They're also all in the bottom half of the league in sacks allowed, whereas the Bears are 5th best.

Hereís all I need to know about Grossman: In games where he manages to throw less than three interceptions, the Bears are undefeated (8-0). And yet in a third of their games, he couldnít even manage that.

Marley23
12-07-2006, 08:27 PM
Buffalo, Cleveland, and Arizona are 29th, 30th, and 32nd in the league in rushing. They're also all in the bottom half of the league in sacks allowed, whereas the Bears are 5th best.
Those teams all have better receivers. I'm not trying to tell you that Grossman isn't stinking up the joint.

figure9
12-07-2006, 08:30 PM
Can anybody remember the last good QB the bears had? The best I can think of is Jim Harbaugh. Anyway Rex was the first QB we had seen in a long time that looked anything like a winner. The coaches are desparate for him to pan out and start playing like an NFL. What else can they do? They can put in Greise and hope he doesn't get knocked out before the playoffs. If I were the coach I'd give Rex one half of the Rams game to prove he can play. If he can't make it through two quarters without screwing up, pull him.

Frostillicus
12-07-2006, 09:16 PM
Can anybody remember the last good QB the bears had? The best I can think of is Jim Harbaugh.

The punky QB was great when healthy. Of course, he was rarely healthy, especially after Charles Martin body-slammed him in 1986. :mad:

Ellis Dee
12-07-2006, 10:07 PM
Those teams all have better receivers. I'm not trying to tell you that Grossman isn't stinking up the joint.Arizona certainly does, and if you (righly) count Winslow I'll give you Cleveland, but Buffalo? ... Holy shit, after looking at Buffalo's numbers, you're right. That's just sad.Can anybody remember the last good QB the bears had?Erik Kramer, though I had to look it up on pro-football-reference (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/chiindex.htm). It's tough to judge what a good quarterback is, though, especially if the requirement is that they got good pretty quickly and stayed good throughout their career. Certainly there is no Dan Marino or Peyton Manning in the Bears' past.

An arbitrary citeria of a season with...
- throwing at least as many TDs as Ints,
- averaging at least 6.5 yards per attempt,
- having a completion percentage of at least 55%
- while throwing for at least 2500 yards in a season (2187 for a 14 game season, 1875 for a 12 game season)
...doesn't seem to be setting the bar too high. Those requirements translate roughly to a 75 passer rating. Here's an exhaustive list of seasons going back to 1955 where those criteria were met by the Bears leading passer:

2006 Rex Grossman is close: 198 of 365 (54.2%) for 2428 yards (6.7), 18 TDs 17 Ints (72.04 rating)

1997 Erik Kramer came close: 275 of 477 (57.7) for 3011 yards (6.3), 14 TDs 14 Ints (73.98 rating)
1995 Erik Kramer lit it up: 315 of 522 (60.3) for 3838 yards (7.4), 29 TDs 10 Ints (93.54 rating)

1992 Jim Harbaugh just missed: 202 of 358 (56.4) for 2486 yards (6.9), 13 TDs 12 Ints (76.18 rating)
1991 Jim Harbaugh came close: 275 of 478 (57.5) for 3121 yards (6.5), 15 TDs 16 Ints (73.74 rating)

1985 Jim McMahon came close: 178 of 313 (56.9) for 2392 yards (7.6), 15 TDs 11 Ints (82.65 rating)

1965 Rudy Bukich rocked the house: 176 of 312 (56.4) for 2641 yards (8.5), 20 TDs 9 Ints (93.71 rating)

1963 Bill Wade came close: 192 of 356 (53.9) for 2301 yards (6.5), 15 TDs 12 Ints (73.96 rating)
1961 Bill Wade lit it up: 139 of 250 (55.6) for 2258 yards (9.0), 22 TDs 13 Ints (93.72 rating)

Setting the bar firmly in the territory of mediocrity, in the past 50 years the Bears have fielded a good passer in three seasons, and came close to fielding a good passer another six times. This puts things in perspective; even with his current struggles Grossman is still one of the greatest passers in Bears history. That's fucking pathetic.

figure9
12-08-2006, 07:22 PM
Here's a list of Bears QB's going back 20 years, these are not all the QB's just the ones I remember as starters, feel free to correct me if I included or excluded someone I shouldn't have.
McManhon
Flutie
Tomczak
Willis
Walsh
Kramer
Krieg
Stentstrom
Mattews
McNown
Miller
Chandler
Burris
Stewart
Hutchinson
Orton
This has nothing to do with the Rex situation, its just a very large list.

Argent Towers
12-08-2006, 09:27 PM
Rex Grossman went to my high school (graduated a few years before me.) His family is well known here and his father is a successful doctor. Interestingly, they are NOT Jewish, although many assume them to be.

Operation Ripper
12-08-2006, 09:40 PM
Rex Grossman went to my high school (graduated a few years before me.) His family is well known here and his father is a successful doctor. Interestingly, they are NOT Jewish, although many assume them to be.

What? Where did this come from? Did I miss a post or something?

Khadaji
12-09-2006, 06:54 AM
I would put Griese in. I think he is a much better QB. Grossman has been lucky that his defense and special teams have supported his abysmal playing.