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The Great Sun Jester
12-06-2006, 05:06 PM
Yeah, I could read the books. Again. But who has time for that when I have you foax? If I remember rightly, the RWs were indeed adversely affected when Frodo melted the ring, but I don't recall exactly how that was.

So, what, specifically would happen to the remaining 8 RWs upon the destruction of The One Ring? And why? I ask because ... I really shouldn't say this for fear of being burned as a heretic but ... I'm putting together a Neverwinter Nights module for Minas Morgul at the dawn of the Fourth Age. It'll require a bit of ... license ... since the last superevil Steward of MM met his demise shortly before his boss was greased, and I want to know if some/all of the remaining 8 can succeed him. Without his Bitchin' Witch-King SuperPowers, of course. Central to this, I presume, would be the efficacy of the remaining slave rings without a master. if they still work, well hey--Wraiths on wings without supervision could make all kinds of mischief on what's left of Middle Earth. :cool:

(BTW, is Sauron now necessarily dead? Or is he just really messed up. Mostly Dead. Again. Like after he met Isildur?)

What Exit?
12-06-2006, 05:10 PM
I was actually talking to someone about this last night.

In theory the power of the ring is what kept the Ring Wraiths going, but when I ref'd Middle Earth Campaigns I fudged and had the #2 Ring Wraith Gothmog and an additional Ring Wraith I called the Shadow Master survive and recoup enough to cause trouble by 115 Fourth Age.

The Ring Wraiths were a vital link to the older evil. It really helped the campaigns.

Good luck with you campaign, I will be restarting a Middle Earth Campaign within a few months.

Jim

glee
12-06-2006, 05:14 PM
In the film, they crash to the ground.

In the book, there is no specific mention: 'the servants of Sauron fell with him' is my recollection.

Given they were men whose life was unnaturally prolonged by the One Ring, it seems eminently reasonable that they died when the Ring dissolved.

What Exit?
12-06-2006, 05:16 PM
I hit submit to soon:

Sauron is really, really dead this time. Using him will be a cop out.

Feel free to have Dragons scattered around some of the Northern Mountains.

The last known where abouts of the Mouth of Sauron are unknown, I played him out as a powerful Liche who new where to lift some interesting items out of Morder before he fled Morder.

Remember the story of the two Blue Wizards is yet untold. They travels to the East and could be used in a variety of ways.

Do not forget that Shelob is alive and angry and more cautious. Could be a fun adventure when the characters get powerful.

Clearing the Barrow Downs is another high powered adventure to consider.

My campaign will begin fighting an evil wizard organizing a group of Goblin Kingdoms on the North by Angmar and Gundabad.

Jim

Lumpy
12-06-2006, 05:24 PM
IIRC, Sauron wasn't annihilated but was rendered utterly powerless forever. It's just conceivable that someone with enough power could summon what was left of his spirit if they wanted knowledge that Sauron possessed.

Shelob lives? I coulda' sworn she was killed d-e-a-d.

Yeh, there are definitely dragons, but I thought Smaug was the last of the "Great" dragons?

And there's always orcs.

Qadgop the Mercotan
12-06-2006, 05:33 PM
Well, Gandalf said that that a fall into "nothingness" awaited the ringwraith he confronted in Minas Tirith.

But since the Nazgul were originally men, I'd expect their spirits went to Mandos for a time, then left the circles of the world. Just like the spirits of other men.

ryobserver
12-06-2006, 06:35 PM
In the film, they crash to the ground.

In the book, there is no specific mention: 'the servants of Sauron fell with him' is my recollection.

Given they were men whose life was unnaturally prolonged by the One Ring, it seems eminently reasonable that they died when the Ring dissolved.


Near the end of the chapter "Mount Doom" (p. 276 of ROTK in my edition):

"And into the heart of the storm...the Nazgul game, shooting like flaming bolts, as caught in the fiery ruin of hill and sky they crackled, withered, and went out."

I always interpreted that to mean the Nazgul arrived at Mount Doom just in time to get crisped out of existence in the eruption following the destruction of the Ring.

kaylasdad99
12-06-2006, 06:48 PM
What ryobserver said.

kaylasdad99
12-06-2006, 07:10 PM
Although, since the Professor neglected to write "Frodo watched in horror and disgust as one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight fiery forms plunged into the wreckage of Oroduin, shrieking in pain and release.", you might be able to get away with claiming that a couple weren't accounted for, and are now annoying the good folk of Neverwinter Night-Land.

Do the Appendices have anything related to the cleansing of Minas Morgul?

Qadgop the Mercotan
12-06-2006, 08:47 PM
Do the Appendices have anything related to the cleansing of Minas Morgul?
It was one of the duties of the Prince of Ithilien (Faramir, don'tcha know) to clear Minas Morgul of the fear and dread that still lurked there. But it was noted that long ages would need to pass before anyone would be able or willing to dwell there again.

DesertDog
12-06-2006, 09:00 PM
Shelob lives? I coulda' sworn she was killed d-e-a-d.When Sam put on, the ring he could hear her whimpering in whatever hole she dragged herself into after the 'stinged' her. Perhaps she kicked it later but there's no mention of it.

Arnold Winkelried
12-06-2006, 09:14 PM
It was one of the duties of the Prince of Ithilien (Faramir, don'tcha know) to clear Minas Morgul of the fear and dread that still lurked there. But it was noted that long ages would need to pass before anyone would be able or willing to dwell there again.Actually what happened is that the Cuenta Verde estates were built on that location, to the great regret of the Freeling family, with little Carol Anne in particular bearing the brunt of the consequences of that fatal decision.

C K Dexter Haven
12-06-2006, 10:12 PM
There is certainly one of the nine rings that escaped the eruption: it's presumably lying there on the Pelennor Fields, where Eowyn slew the Captain...

The Great Sun Jester
12-06-2006, 10:19 PM
Actually what happened is that the Cuenta Verde estates were built on that location, to the great regret of the Freeling family, with little Carol Anne in particular bearing the brunt of the consequences of that fatal decision.
Well, that's kind of where I was thinking of taking it. Ya, Witch King is dead and maybe the corporeal beasts were destroyed under Faramir's lead, but in the absence of human habitation it is a certainty that brazillions of disenfranchised orcses & uruks & evil wotnots would have wandered out of Mordor and into the ruined, empty and altogether evil city. I see room for noncorporeals to linger and reign over and modify the new settlers. And the powerless au de Sauron could be channelled into an advisory position until he finally tricks someone into leeching some power his way. Maybe by way of his possessing a new witch king whom he had groomed and advised into a powerful being. He was always a sneaky bastard. I would really like to employ some Nazgul, but to say that some missed getting deep fried at Mt. Doom would seem to imply that they did not make as much haste in that direction as they could have. That they held back, for obviously selfish reasons, and allowed the ring to be destroyed. Hardly the actions of a slave to Sauron's will.

Do we know that all the dwarf rings were eaten by dragons along with their bearers? I wonder how likely a ring bearer would be to face a dragon himself when all he'd have to do is "wish a few dozen of his subjects would do it."

Was Spiro Agnew a Nazgul?

The Great Sun Jester
12-06-2006, 10:21 PM
There is certainly one of the nine rings that escaped the eruption: it's presumably lying there on the Pelennor Fields, where Eowyn slew the Captain...
Hmmm...I like the way you think. Maybe found by Faramir's kid--the budding young 'wizard's pupil!'

flurb
12-06-2006, 10:50 PM
Didn't Galadriel say that the remaining rings would gradually lose their power after the One Ring is destroyed?

jayjay
12-06-2006, 11:06 PM
All of the Rings were "powered" by the One, even the three Elven Rings. When the One was destroyed, they lost their power and the things created with them were destroyed. Barad-dur fell, the Nazgul finally died, the enchantments protecting Lothlorien faded. Even had any particular Ring survived (as the one on the Pellenor Fields) it would have been just a piece of jewelry.

Arnold Winkelried
12-07-2006, 12:47 AM
Even had any particular Ring survived (as the one on the Pellenor Fields) it would have been just a piece of jewelry.Yes, but a piece of jewelry with an important magical history, quite suitable for use as a ... dare I say it ... horcrux? Yes, I believe I have a new theory to astound my muggle friends!

sturmhauke
12-07-2006, 01:43 AM
You need any voiceovers? I'm not a pro or anything, but I can do a pretty good Saruman impersonation, Balrog growling, whatever.

The Great Sun Jester
12-07-2006, 01:46 AM
All of the Rings were "powered" by the OneCanon?

H3Knuckles
12-07-2006, 02:32 AM
I can't back jayjay up with a site atm, but I'm dead certain he's right.

footbag
12-07-2006, 04:02 AM
I thought Sauron stole the secret of magical ringmaking from the elves. I think Sauron also made the 3 for the elves, 7 for the dwarves and certainly he made the 9 for mortal men.
I think he made these rings using the power of the One.

Remember the mortal men were doomed to die until the ring stepped in.

Everything made with the One ring would be unmade when it was destroyed.

MrDibble
12-07-2006, 04:36 AM
There is certainly one of the nine rings that escaped the eruption: it's presumably lying there on the Pelennor Fields, where Eowyn slew the Captain...
Is there a reference to the Nazgul actually still wearing their rings? I thought after they turned to wraiths, Sauron kept their rings:
"The Nine he has gathered to Himself. The Seven also, or else destroyed." IIRC

Or else there'd be more call to go looking downstream from the Fords of Bruinen, since destruction in the floodwaters discorporated the Nazgul there.

Malacandra
12-07-2006, 04:42 AM
I thought Sauron stole the secret of magical ringmaking from the elves. I think Sauron also made the 3 for the elves, 7 for the dwarves and certainly he made the 9 for mortal men.
I think he made these rings using the power of the One.

Remember the mortal men were doomed to die until the ring stepped in.

Everything made with the One ring would be unmade when it was destroyed.

It's clearly stated that Sauron never got his dirty little hands on the Three Rings, and that he devised the One as a parallel project of his own; not that he used the One to make the Seven and the Nine.

Do we know that all the dwarf rings were eaten by dragons along with their bearers? I wonder how likely a ring bearer would be to face a dragon himself when all he'd have to do is "wish a few dozen of his subjects would do it."

But the dwarves were too resistant to domination for that to work on them. The Seven could not make them into Wraiths and Sauron could not control their wearers as he could the wearers of the Nine. They probably would make their wearers prideful enough to think they could beat a dragon, though.

Three of the Seven were back in Sauron's keeping by the time of the War of the Ring. He offered them to Daìn if Daìn would bring him "Baggins" and the One. However, they're certainly gone by the time Barad-Dûr has done collapsing.

What Exit?
12-07-2006, 07:46 AM
There is certainly one of the nine rings that escaped the eruption: it's presumably lying there on the Pelennor Fields, where Eowyn slew the Captain...
Is there a reference to the Nazgul actually still wearing their rings? I thought after they turned to wraiths, Sauron kept their rings:
"The Nine he has gathered to Himself. The Seven also, or else destroyed." IIRC

Or else there'd be more call to go looking downstream from the Fords of Bruinen, since destruction in the floodwaters discorporated the Nazgul there.
The Nazgul did not wear their rings by the time of the War of the Ring. It is uncertain if they were kept safely in Barad-Dûr or elsewhere.
I thought Sauron stole the secret of magical ringmaking from the elves. I think Sauron also made the 3 for the elves, 7 for the dwarves and certainly he made the 9 for mortal men.
I think he made these rings using the power of the One.

Remember the mortal men were doomed to die until the ring stepped in.

Everything made with the One ring would be unmade when it was destroyed.

To add to this, Sauron taught the forging of the rings as Annatar, "the Lord of Gifts". He helped in the forging of all the Great Rings except the Three Elven Rings and possibly the Dwarven Ring given to Durin. Thráin II father of Thorin Oakenshield lost this Ring in Dol Guldur before Gandalf the Grey found him in the dungeons and recovered the map.

Celebrimbor by tradition forged the Elven Rings and directly gave the ring to Durin III.

BTW: Celebrimbor was the son of Curufin who was the son of Fëanor. He was captured in the destruction of Eregion, but defied Suaron unto his death, as he was tortured for the whereabouts of the Three.

It is important to remember that many lesser rings were forged that may not be tied to the one ring at all, but still capable of mischief.

Inigo Montoya: feel free to fudge on the Ring Wraith somehow surviving. Say their rings were stored outside Barad-Dûr and escaped destruction. Establish they at added their own sorceries to them or have some Black Numenoeran use the rings to raise them back up. It is not Canon, but it will facilitate your game.

Jim

MonkeyMule
12-07-2006, 08:29 AM
I checked out The Encyclopedia of Arda (http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/) which normaly has most answers to all things hobbitesquise, but no mention of the final fate of the great rings wsa found. Though Honestly I didn't look very long and it might be the online (FREE) version isn't 100% cross refrenced or its incomplete. etiher way its still a good starting point.

Bosda Di'Chi of Tricor
12-07-2006, 08:34 AM
I checked out The Encyclopedia of Arda (http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/) which normaly has most answers to all things hobbitesquise, but no mention of the final fate of the great rings wsa found. Though Honestly I didn't look very long and it might be the online (FREE) version isn't 100% cross refrenced or its incomplete. etiher way its still a good starting point.
You didn't look too hard, as it resolves the OP nicely.

First seen in c. II 2250; went 'into the shadows' II 3441; reappeared in Middle-earth c. III 1300; finally destroyed in III 3019
Race Men
Divisions Various, including some Númenóreans
Other Names Nazgûl, Úlairi
Titles Black Riders, The Nine, Nine Riders, Nine Servants, Winged Shadows

The Nazgûl, the slaves of Sauron's Nine Rings; originally Men who were corrupted by the Rings of Power.

In 3019--

25 March Destruction of the One Ring and final downfall of Sauron and his Nazgûl.

MonkeyMule
12-07-2006, 08:41 AM
It just hit me, why if the Elven rings were made first, and with no help from Sauron did they too loose their power?

What Exit?
12-07-2006, 08:44 AM
It just hit me, why if the Elven rings were made first, and with no help from Sauron did they too loose their power?
They were not made first. They were made without Sauron's help. You might say they were a secret master work for Celebrimbor. IRC, Galadriel explained that these rings would still lose their power.

Jim

MonkeyMule
12-07-2006, 08:56 AM
Well according to the site I just mentioned: Narya, Nenya and Vilya were completed in 1590, where the one ring was forged in 1600. And even if she said it would lose power, she doesn't explain why. Thats what I ment to ask, sorry bout the confusion.

Lochdale
12-07-2006, 08:57 AM
The one ring aside, I believe that the Tolkien's general theme was that the fourth age would be the end of magic in the world. That is, the fourth age would evolve into our world. As such, there are no more rings, elves or anything like that. More's the pity but just from a macro point of view it's really all over once the ring is destroyed. To suggest otherwise (outside of the context of a game of course) lessens the impact of the books.

What Exit?
12-07-2006, 09:22 AM
Well according to the site I just mentioned: Narya, Nenya and Vilya were completed in 1590, where the one ring was forged in 1600. And even if she said it would lose power, she doesn't explain why. Thats what I ment to ask, sorry bout the confusion.
There is no explanation I have ever found of why they would lose power. We are left to trust Galadriel that this is correct. Perhaps the power behind all the rings ultimately came from Sauron and he took this part of his power and used it in the “One Ring to Bind them All”.
The one ring aside, I believe that the Tolkien's general theme was that the fourth age would be the end of magic in the world. That is, the fourth age would evolve into our world. As such, there are no more rings, elves or anything like that. More's the pity but just from a macro point of view it's really all over once the ring is destroyed. To suggest otherwise (outside of the context of a game of course) lessens the impact of the books.
The elves only left gradually and it is questionable if they all left. The Dwarves retreated deeper from Humans, but it was not implied they went extinct. The Hobbits dwindled and it was implied that they became the basis for stories of the wee folk. The Ents would indeed fade away. There are no more Entlings and the older Ents were all becoming ‘treeish’.

It is also important to recall that what we call magic and what the elves used outside the rings were not truly the same.

Jim

Grey
12-07-2006, 10:14 AM
The Elves were not able to craft the Rings of Power without Saruon’s teachings and aid. Celebrimbor was able to take that learning and craft the three greatest rings to hold back the slow decay of time but that crafting was aided by what he learned from Sauron. Since the point of the deception was to control the elves through the rings it makes sense that the destruction of the one ring would interrupt their operation. That and the old elf lady said so. :)

You could argue that someone rummaged through Isengard and found technical treaties by Sauruman on the nature of rings of power. From that they managed to salvage the Witch King's ring and by forging a “new” one ring allowed for a neo-nazgul to emerge.

Fiver
12-07-2006, 10:23 AM
It just hit me, why if the Elven rings were made first, and with no help from Sauron did they too loose their power?
Also, they didn't loose their power. Their power was lost.

Priam
12-07-2006, 10:30 AM
I view it like this: originally the elven rings of power were forged and gained their power from the general source where Gandalf is able to get his mojo. However, Sauron forged the One Ring and bound their magic up into it, hence why it took so much of his power to create and maintain. It's not so much that their source of magic was the One Ring, but rather that the only way to access their source of magic was through Sauron's ring.

MonkeyMule
12-07-2006, 10:32 AM
Also, they didn't loose their power. Their power was lost.

So basicly the rings still work, but the batteries are dead?

Intresting idea. For the OP who's trying to set up a game on this you could always have the depowered rings found in the ruins of mordor by some baddie with means to find a new power source for hte rings.

The Great Sun Jester
12-07-2006, 10:51 AM
...by forging a “new” one ring allowed for a neo-nazgul to emerge.
And Godwin rears his ugl...oh.

Interesting idea about some evil entity locating Sauron's secrets. Either through tech manuals or some way-cool divination process (Clearly a lich-bard will have to be involved somehow). After Sauron, Inc. has Tolkein left us anyone evil enough to do this? figure if I'm taking liberties with his world I may as well try and stick to his pantheon. I am I probably looking at The Mouth picking up the pieces? There was mention in The Hobbit of "The Necromancer" whom Thorin wanted to 'visit' but it's been too long for me to determine if he's a.k.a. one of the Mordor players.

Any input on The Necromancer?

Lochdale
12-07-2006, 10:56 AM
I thought the Necromancer was either Sauron or the Witch-King?

I though it was also fairly clear in the books that magic, the elves, the hobbits were all fading. Eventually all of the elves would leave Middle-Earth (I think the index references that).

Didn't Tolkien pepare a draft for a new book that dealt with a liche or other (relatively) minor spirit unrelated to the rings causing trouble?

Grey
12-07-2006, 10:58 AM
The necromancer was actually Sauron, though after he fled back to Mordor he made one of the nazgul "captain" of Dol Guldur.

The Mouth might be good enough, but I'd opt for one of the blue wizards. Tolkien thought that they failed and effectively began various occult movements. They also have more inherent power than the Mouth and so would be able to “power up” a new one ring. Have one of them migrate back following the fall of Sauron and take up the mantle of the new enemy.

The Great Sun Jester
12-07-2006, 11:10 AM
I am ignorant of Blue Wizards. Gandalf, Saruman and Radagast I've heard of. Saruman's dead, Gandalf's retired. Where's Radagast, who are the blue dudes, and would the wizards have a purpose and power now that Sauron's been defeated?

Grey
12-07-2006, 11:16 AM
There were 5 wizards that showed up to contest with Sauron. Gandalf, Radagast hung around the western portion of Middle Earth while Sauruman and two others (the blue wizards) went into the East. Sauruman returned and took up house at Isengard and began learning about the rings of power. We never really hear about the other two and it's assumed they failed in their task to oppose Sauron.

Kythereia
12-07-2006, 11:26 AM
I am ignorant of Blue Wizards. Gandalf, Saruman and Radagast I've heard of. Saruman's dead, Gandalf's retired. Where's Radagast, who are the blue dudes, and would the wizards have a purpose and power now that Sauron's been defeated?

It's never really said what happened to Radagast (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radagast_%28Middle-earth%29), but Tolkien generally describes him as a good guy in spite of his capture and manipulation by Saruman, so he might have been allowed back into the Undying Lands (Valinor) at some point.

The Blue Wizards (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Wizards) (Ithyrin Luin) either disappeared into the East and likely failed in their mission to oppose Sauron (Tolkien's letters and Unfinished Tales) or were actually crucial in winning the War of the Ring (Peoples of Middle-Earth). Depends on who you ask.

What Exit?
12-07-2006, 11:33 AM
Where's Radagast ... and would the wizards have a purpose and power now that Sauron's been defeated?
As Kythereia said, he failed but did not turn to evil. I used him in my campaigns. I had him instruct the first of the Druids to care for nature. He had to wait to depart until there was a Great Druid. You could think of this as both a form of penance for Radagast and a handy fudge for you the ref.

Jim

well he's back
12-07-2006, 11:37 AM
I love these LOTR threads. Don't have anything to add, but I do have a question: Any source of fanfic on any of the topics discussed above? Seems I looked through some fanfic sites a while back looking for good "What if" and "What happened after" Middle Earth stories. But all I found was slash stuff or cutsey-wootsey how Sam met Rosie stuff.

jsc1953
12-07-2006, 12:03 PM
The Nazgul did not wear their rings by the time of the War of the Ring. It is uncertain if they were kept safely in Barad-Dûr or elsewhere.

I'm surprised that this statement didn't launch a 300-page flamewar. I believe that this (did the Nazgul wear their rings?) is second only to "balrog wings" as the most controversial subject in Tolkien geekdom.

CalMeacham
12-07-2006, 12:07 PM
Announcer: Witch-King of Angmar! You've been stabbed by Hobbit and Maid, and the One Ring is Unmade. What are you doing now?



WKoA: I'm going to RingWorld!!

Grey
12-07-2006, 12:17 PM
I'm surprised that this statement didn't launch a 300-page flamewar. I believe that this (did the Nazgul wear their rings?) is second only to "balrog wings" as the most controversial subject in Tolkien geekdom.Nope. It's did Sauron leave the ring behind when he went to Numenor and if he didn't how did he carry it back? :)

DrDeth
12-07-2006, 12:29 PM
The Ringwraiths should have been dead centuries before- only the power of the rings through Sauron was keeping them with a semblence of life. No more Sauron, no more nine rings, no more Ringwraiths. Assuming that if one had still been a living man, then he'd likely just be insane.

In one scene, Sméagol/Gollum told of Sauron wearing the Nine (and the three dwarven rings?) on his nine remaining fingers. There's no Ring at the Pelenor Feilds.

That doesn't mean that there weren't some nasties still around; Barrow-wights are undead and not connected to the rings.

jsc1953
12-07-2006, 12:40 PM
In one scene, Sméagol/Gollum told of Sauron wearing the Nine (and the three dwarven rings?) on his nine remaining fingers. There's no Ring at the Pelenor Feilds.

There's only one scene I can think of where Gollum mentions Sauron's fingers...from TT, "The Black Gate is Closed".

`That would be Minas Ithil that Isildur the son of Elendil built ' said Frodo. `It was Isildur who cut off the finger of the Enemy.'
`Yes, He has only four on the Black Hand, but they are enough,' said Gollum shuddering.

What Exit?
12-07-2006, 01:11 PM
I'm surprised that this statement didn't launch a 300-page flamewar. I believe that this (did the Nazgul wear their rings?) is second only to "balrog wings" as the most controversial subject in Tolkien geekdom.
Well nothing quite equals the Balrog wings. I think way back in 1996, I helped overload the local servers with the flame-wars on the IRC #middle-earth board. Our rapid fire 14.4K postings were flaming with the heat of, well I guess the heat of a Balrog. I do not believe any issue comes close.

The one Grey mentioned is much hotter than the 9 rings for mortal men.
The Origin of Glorifindel can get very testy.
Are Orcs really just a sub-race of corrupted Elves?

Jim :D

ouryL
12-07-2006, 02:27 PM
All of the Rings were "powered" by the One, even the three Elven Rings. When the One was destroyed, they lost their power and the things created with them were destroyed. Barad-dur fell, the Nazgul finally died, the enchantments protecting Lothlorien faded. Even had any particular Ring survived (as the one on the Pellenor Fields) it would have been just a piece of jewelry.

The power of the One Ring, the last and greatest of the rings to be created, was such that it "ruled" the rest. The Elven rings were of a lessor power, the Dwarven rings, lesser still, and the rings given to Men the least. When the One Rings was created to totally corrupted the Nine, making them thralls to the One Ring. The Seven could not to controlled but it could corrupt, making the Dwarven crave gold and milthril. The Three Rings, created by the Elven alone, were thus uncorrupted and even protected against the One.

What Exit?
12-07-2006, 02:35 PM
The power of the One Ring, the last and greatest of the rings to be created, was such that it "ruled" the rest. The Elven rings were of a lessor power, the Dwarven rings, lesser still, and the rings given to Men the least. When the One Rings was created to totally corrupted the Nine, making them thralls to the One Ring. The Seven could not to controlled but it could corrupt, making the Dwarven crave gold and milthril. The Three Rings, created by the Elven alone, were thus uncorrupted and even protected against the One.
I need you to cite the fact that the the Nine were any less strong than the Seven. I do not recall that being stated anywhere.

In what ways were the Three protected. I believe it was written that the Elves detected Sauron's deception as soon as he put on the One Ring and set theirs aside until he fell to the Numenoreans. I will check this when I get home. They may have put them aside until Sauron fell to Last Alliance and he lost the ring.
I am unsure what you mean by protected in this case.

Jim

Cardinal
12-07-2006, 02:45 PM
I was actually talking to someone about this last night. And there we have Official Doper Moment #7564, in which you wonder where else you could have gotten that response so quickly, sincerely, and geekily.

Elendil's Heir
12-07-2006, 02:57 PM
As the other party to that conversation, I confess that I take some small pride in my role in Official Doper Moment #7564. :D

Autumn Almanac
12-07-2006, 03:19 PM
"What happened after" Middle Earth stories
I once convinced my sister that Peter Jackson was working on a sequel, "Lord of the Rings 4: Gollum's Revenge." :D

Polycarp
12-07-2006, 03:28 PM
It's never really said what happened to Radagast (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radagast_%28Middle-earth%29), but Tolkien generally describes him as a good guy in spite of his capture and manipulation by Saruman, so he might have been allowed back into the Undying Lands (Valinor) at some point.

The Blue Wizards (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Wizards) (Ithyrin Luin) either disappeared into the East and likely failed in their mission to oppose Sauron (Tolkien's letters and Unfinished Tales) or were actually crucial in winning the War of the Ring (Peoples of Middle-Earth). Depends on who you ask.

Not owning or having read Peoples of Middle Earth and with very little likelihood of being able to buy or borrow it, may I ask someone to take pity on me and explain how the Ithryin Luin played a crucial role in the winning of the War of the Ring?

And will Qadgop ever find the time to share his insights into Tom Bombadillo?

jayjay
12-07-2006, 04:27 PM
Not owning or having read Peoples of Middle Earth and with very little likelihood of being able to buy or borrow it, may I ask someone to take pity on me and explain how the Ithryin Luin played a crucial role in the winning of the War of the Ring?

The relevant passage is:

"The 'other two' came much earlier, at the same time probably as Glorfindel, when matters became very dangerous in the Second Age.(26) Glorfindel was sent to aid Elrond and was (though not yet said) pre-eminent in the war in Eriador.But the other two Istari were sent for a different purpose. Morinehtar and Romestamo. Darkness-slayer and East-helper. Their task was to circumvent Sauron: to bring help to the few tribes of Men that had rebelled from Melkor-worship, to stir -up rebellion...and after his first fall to search out his hiding (in which they failed) and to cause dissension and disarray among the dark East...They must have had very great influence on the history of the Second Age and Third Age in weakening and disarrayinbg the forces of the East...who would both in the Second and Third Age otherwise have ...outnumbered the West."

So their mission was to decrease Sauron's influence on the Easterlings, and lessen the possible numbers of his armies.

The Great Sun Jester
12-07-2006, 05:07 PM
So much cloth to work with regarding those two blues. Could be they stirred up things like a couple green berets or as has been mentioned earlier, started their own cult--either way undermining direct support of Mordor. Anyone think wizards are so given to corruption that 60% of them would turn to evil? 20% to apathy and 20% would stay more or less on task? I'm trying to decide if Tolkein would espouse the larger good coming out of lesser evils (like the blues abandoning their mission for their own gains). That seems to be the case when he describes the making of the world--Melkor is always trying to corupt, but instead his chaotic actions onle enhance the richness of the world. I think I'm leaning toward "inevitable salvation despite and because of corruption."

sturmhauke
12-07-2006, 05:30 PM
I'm wondering how much access to magic the players should have. Seems to me that magic items in Middle-earth are pretty uncommon, and spellcasters are exceedingly rare. The D&D ruleset as used in NWN is geared to a much higher level of magic. If a few high-level D&D sorcerers were hanging out on the battlements at Minas Tirith, the battle would have been won a good deal faster. I think it is possible to modify the classes in NWN with some fancy scripting, but that's something to consider.

Chronos
12-07-2006, 05:55 PM
I'm surprised that this statement didn't launch a 300-page flamewar. I believe that this (did the Nazgul wear their rings?) is second only to "balrog wings" as the most controversial subject in Tolkien geekdom.Nah, #2 (or perhaps even #1, passing the wings) has to be Bombadil.

And just to reiterate what others have said, the Three were untouched by Sauron, and indeed he didn't know of their existance until he made the One, but they were made using knowledge taught by Sauron. He just neglected to mention to the Elves the minor detail of Ring-lore which allowed for the creation of a Ruling Ring.
It is important to remember that many lesser rings were forged that may not be tied to the one ring at all, but still capable of mischief.The location of one of them is even known, or at least, readily-guessable. Saruman had a ring he'd made for himself, which was presumably either locked up somewhere in Orthanc, or on his person when he was killed.

MonkeyMule
12-07-2006, 06:19 PM
However, in the Silmarillion it is said that Sauron will return for the Final Battle when Morgoth, the original Dark Lord, frees himself from the Void.

Just a tidbit for the OP. Youcould set the game leading up to the Final battle.

John DiFool
12-07-2006, 07:34 PM
I'm wondering how much access to magic the players should have. Seems to me that magic items in Middle-earth are pretty uncommon, and spellcasters are exceedingly rare. The D&D ruleset as used in NWN is geared to a much higher level of magic. If a few high-level D&D sorcerers were hanging out on the battlements at Minas Tirith, the battle would have been won a good deal faster. I think it is possible to modify the classes in NWN with some fancy scripting, but that's something to consider.

Indeed. Lord of the Rings Online will not have any user-controlled (PC) spellcasters.

Malacandra
12-08-2006, 04:47 AM
And Godwin rears his ugl...oh.

Interesting idea about some evil entity locating Sauron's secrets. Either through tech manuals or some way-cool divination process (Clearly a lich-bard will have to be involved somehow). After Sauron, Inc. has Tolkein left us anyone evil enough to do this? figure if I'm taking liberties with his world I may as well try and stick to his pantheon. I am I probably looking at The Mouth picking up the pieces? There was mention in The Hobbit of "The Necromancer" whom Thorin wanted to 'visit' but it's been too long for me to determine if he's a.k.a. one of the Mordor players.

Any input on The Necromancer?

The Necromancer was Sauron. That's all wrapped up in LotR. He hung out in Dol Guldur in southern Mirkwood for a while, as he was still rebuilding his power, and then when the White Council drove him out (Gandalf's other business in TH) he cleared off back to Mordor, which was ready to be re-occupied by then.

It's never really said what happened to Radagast, but Tolkien generally describes him as a good guy in spite of his capture and manipulation by Saruman, so he might have been allowed back into the Undying Lands (Valinor) at some point.

Assuredly. Radagast served Saruman's ends only by passing on a message in all innocence: that the Ringwraiths were out (true) and that Saruman wanted to see Gandalf (also true, but for a more nefarious purpose than Radagast knew). Gandalf himself said that it would have been useless "to try to win the honest Radagast over to treachery". Of course, he would not have been as exhausted as Gandalf and might have been happy to stay East of the Sea for a few centuries.

Polycarp
12-08-2006, 07:22 AM
Former member Radagast once pointed out here that at the end of the LOTR (book version; the movies were not yet), the assorted Maiar left in Middle Earth, along with any Elves and Peredhil of sufficient power to challenge one of them, have managed to beat each other into either a bloody pulp, de-fanar-ization (the Maia equivalent of discorportion), or total exhaustion.

Except one. Radagast continues his cover story of being a harmless friend to animals and birds. Until they all leave. BWA-HA-HA!

Polycarp
12-08-2006, 07:38 AM
I'm wondering how much access to magic the players should have. Seems to me that magic items in Middle-earth are pretty uncommon, and spellcasters are exceedingly rare. The D&D ruleset as used in NWN is geared to a much higher level of magic. If a few high-level D&D sorcerers were hanging out on the battlements at Minas Tirith, the battle would have been won a good deal faster. I think it is possible to modify the classes in NWN with some fancy scripting, but that's something to consider.
If you hang out on conservative Christian message boards at all, you'll run into the proposition that prayer, miracles, and the like are in fact efficacious, but that magick is either (1) not real or (2) granted through the power of Satan (who as a fallen archangel retains the power he had as an unfallen one).

I bring this up because it's important to an understanding of Tolkien's metaphysics as regards the supernatural. Potiphar Bracegirdle the hobbit or Bregolas son of Minyatur the sailor of Dol Amroth can no more work magic simply because they got interested and looked up some lore, than Donald Rumsfeld or Aunt Tessie Schwartzfuss could in reality Earth 2006. Elves have certain powers that appear magic to mortals that are inherent parts of their nature -- just like human boys, unlike juvenile male rhinoceroses, have the ability to climb trees. Maiar have significantly greater power -- they are, after all, angels in the strict sense, supernatural spirit entities serving The One who chose to enter into Arda when it was created -- but their power, though it may be concentrated in exterior objects, is inherent in who they are, not in what they learn (though being aware through lore of how to do something they have the power to do seems important).

In short, while the LOTR-iverse is highly magical, there is, effectively, no magic in the strict sense in it.

Arien
12-08-2006, 09:03 AM
I bring this up because it's important to an understanding of Tolkien's metaphysics as regards the supernatural. Potiphar Bracegirdle the hobbit or Bregolas son of Minyatur the sailor of Dol Amroth can no more work magic simply because they got interested and looked up some lore, than Donald Rumsfeld or Aunt Tessie Schwartzfuss could in reality Earth 2006.

But didn't the Numenorian sword that Merry used to stab the Witch King have some runes engraved on it or something that partly was the reason behind the Witch-King's death? I think this is geeky Tolkien debate #3, actually.

Bosda Di'Chi of Tricor
12-08-2006, 09:11 AM
But didn't the Numenorian sword that Merry used to stab the Witch King have some runes engraved on it or something that partly was the reason behind the Witch-King's death? I think this is geeky Tolkien debate #3, actually.
Yes, and the Dwarves carved magic Runes.

Magic may be external, after all.

Polycarp
12-08-2006, 09:41 AM
But didn't the Numenorian sword that Merry used to stab the Witch King have some runes engraved on it or something that partly was the reason behind the Witch-King's death? I think this is geeky Tolkien debate #3, actually.

I got the impression that the making of weapons, especially swords, was partly "magical" -- prayer and such went into them from the weaponsmiths who made them that they would accomplish the ends for which they were made. (In this case, a loyal Arthedain smith wanting his blade to be used to smite Angmar, the realm of the Witch-King back when he was purely human.)

But the key point, of course, was that the prophecy was that "the Witch-King of Angmar can be slain by no man" -- and it was a woman -- Eowyn -- and a hobbit -- Meriadoc -- who finally brought him down.

(There are a ton of these twisted-result prophecies in real life, too. One of the English Kings was heartened in battle by the knowledge it had been prophesied that "he would die in Jerusalem" -- which of course was the object of Crusades, and at the time securely held by the Turks. So he fought valiantly and even a touch foolhardily in the secure knowledge that he would not be killed before he came to Jerusalem. Then he was severely wounded and taken into a nearby castle to be tended. And found out that the name of the particular chamber in which he was placed was the Jerusalem Chamber. And promptly died.)

What Exit?
12-08-2006, 10:00 AM
But didn't the Numenorian sword that Merry used to stab the Witch King have some runes engraved on it or something that partly was the reason behind the Witch-King's death? I think this is geeky Tolkien debate #3, actually.
When trying to construct a gaming world from a novel, especially as rich a world as Middle-Earth. The Ref needs to take what liberties he can.

Take the fact that Gandalf and company found some very powerful Gondolin blades in a troll’s lair and the Barrow Downs appears to have contained many magic items. Run with the concept of there already being black sorcerers from the Black Numenoreans. Except the apparent Shamanism of the Pukel-Men and develop Druids from them or Radagast training humans and or elves.

Use the concept of the Blue Wizards training humans in the East in Magic and Illusion and introduce what pieces of magic you wish that way.

As far as magic items, accept that Elves, Dwarves, Dunedain, and other have created what to normal humans would be magic items.

Take what liberties you can without breaking the world of Middle-Earth too much and you can craft a fun and exciting world where many of the players are already well versed in the history and geography of the land.

I was actually talking to someone about this last night.
And there we have Official Doper Moment #7564, in which you wonder where else you could have gotten that response so quickly, sincerely, and geekily.

Aye, an I take pride in my geekiness, it is a large part of who I am and my love of Middle-Earth is the center of my geekiness.
As the other party to that conversation, I confess that I take some small pride in my role in Official Doper Moment #7564.
:)

Jim

Carl Corey
12-08-2006, 11:07 AM
Polycarp , I'm sorry to nitpick but. . .

The chief Ringwraith had been a Nazgul for well over a thousand years at the time that Angmar was founded (perhaps even two thousand years, don't have LOTR handy right now). I doubt he was entirely human by that point.

Henry IV of England is the king you mentioned. He didn't die from battle wounds, rather a disfiguring disease that took several years to kill him. We don't know what the disease was. The Jerusalem chamber story sounds like fiction, although that is where Henry died.

Hypno-Toad
12-08-2006, 11:18 AM
Yes, and the Dwarves carved magic Runes.

Magic may be external, after all.

It seems like much of the magic in Middle-Earth may be imbued into an item through close association with magical creatures rather than being deliberately granted or placed on an item. This is certainly the case with items like elven cloaks and rope. They aren't "enchanted" to perform certain tricks, but they contain the elvishness of their creators. Thus their unbearable nature for evil creatures like Gollum. Also, the blade Merry wielded was antagonistic to the Witch King. It was the blade of the Witch Kings old enemy and as such it longed for vengeance in an elemental way.

Likewise, Aragorns sword Narsil is "magic" (debatable) due more to it's association with kings than any kind of enchantment. It is a Kings blade, and therefore superior to ordinary weapons.

But as others have pointed out, there are cases of "spells" and "enchantments" scattered through the Tolkien universe.

DSYoungEsq
12-08-2006, 12:10 PM
I'm just going to chime in and note that Galadriel's opinion about the three elven rings is not universally shared, as she herself points out when talking about the subject with Frodo at the mirror. Some believe that the rings would be freed of their domination, and the elves would be able to work magic with them again.

The fact that the three are taken from Middle-Earth by their bearers at the end of the story would seem to indicate Galadriel was closer to accurate; surely they would have stayed and help the land recover after the unmaking of the One Ring otherwise.

Also, someone asked about how the Three could have been affected by the One, when Sauron didn't have a hand in making them. While it is true he never touched them, the craft Celebrimbor used to make them was taught to him by Sauron. Presumably, Sauron had a back-door built into the rings; when he made the One Ring, he simply was hacking in through his previously unknown back door. :D

I cannot remember: why would the Nine not be wearing rings? If the rings weren't needed, Sauron could have just handed them out again and made an ever increasing population of wraiths. Do the books themselves say what happened? Or is it something Tolkein talks about in the other reported writings?

MonkeyMule
12-08-2006, 12:16 PM
Likewise, Aragorns sword Narsil is "magic" (debatable) due more to it's association with kings than any kind of enchantment. It is a Kings blade, and therefore superior to ordinary weapons.

I think you're forgeting the fact that the blade blazed with a white fire, much like Stings blue flame when near orcs. I've seen alot of blades, and not one ever glowed anything without magic.

D_Odds
12-08-2006, 12:35 PM
I think you're forgeting the fact that the blade blazed with a white fire, much like Stings blue flame when near orcs. I've seen alot of blades, and not one ever glowed anything without magic.
So...you've been around glowing magic blades? :confused:

MonkeyMule
12-08-2006, 01:13 PM
So...you've been around glowing magic blades? :confused:

I really can't comment on that issue at this time.
THIS PRESS CONFRENCE IS OVER!! :mad: :eek: :D

What Exit?
12-08-2006, 01:21 PM
I cannot remember: why would the Nine not be wearing rings? If the rings weren't needed, Sauron could have just handed them out again and made an ever increasing population of wraiths. Do the books themselves say what happened? Or is it something Tolkein talks about in the other reported writings?
As I recall and conjecture:

At first, they did wear them often, and then they had to wear them as the curse of the ring grew on them. After centuries of corruption, when their human bodies were long gone, their undead spirit was tied to the rings. They were no longer fully corporal at this point. The Rings could be kept safe elsewhere. If Dragon fire could consume Dwarven Rings then both Dragon Fie and Elven Forges would be able to destroy the ring. It would be prudent to keep the rings very safe.

The destruction of the nine and their horses at the Fords gives fairly good proof they were not wearing the rings at the time.

Jim

jsc1953
12-08-2006, 02:54 PM
I cannot remember: why would the Nine not be wearing rings? If the rings weren't needed, Sauron could have just handed them out again and made an ever increasing population of wraiths. Do the books themselves say what happened? Or is it something Tolkein talks about in the other reported writings?

The debate hinges on one line in LOTR: when accounting for all the rings of power, Gandalf says "the Nine he has gathered to himself." Is this meant metaphorically (the Nazgul are slaves to Sauron's will) or literally (the rings are in the Black Jewelry Box of Barad-Dur (with a Lidless Eye engraved on the lid, no doubt)).

robardin
12-08-2006, 02:59 PM
Take what liberties you can without breaking the world of Middle-Earth too much and you can craft a fun and exciting world where many of the players are already well versed in the history and geography of the land.
Oh, I've taken liberties. Maybe too much liberty...

Since you enjoyed my narration of the Choice of Earendil (which I put up on another thread here on the SDMB), here (http://tinyurl.com/yhye5z) and here (http://tinyurl.com/tyepj) are two other examples I once posted on USENET (in rec.arts.books.tolkien). :D In a nutshell, extensive research on my part has proven that both Saruman and Smeagol have been the victims of some massive smear campaigns.

I take pride in my geekiness, it is a large part of who I am and my love of Middle-Earth is the center of my geekiness.
Have you seen this parody (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5331429585309819856) of the game characters from the video game Summoner playing D&D?

MonkeyMule
12-08-2006, 03:08 PM
[QUOTE=robardin] In a nutshell, extensive research on my part has proven that both Saruman and Smeagol have been the victims of some massive smear campaigns.[QUOTE]

Now this I have to hear. How could you prove that Saruman who betrayed all the goodly races of middle earth to get his hands on the one ring got Jobbed?

robardin
12-08-2006, 03:11 PM
The debate hinges on one line in LOTR: when accounting for all the rings of power, Gandalf says "the Nine he has gathered to himself." Is this meant metaphorically (the Nazgul are slaves to Sauron's will) or literally (the rings are in the Black Jewelry Box of Barad-Dur (with a Lidless Eye engraved on the lid, no doubt)).
I always kinda pictured Sauron putting all of them on a chain, and then fingering them like a rosary.

Someone once pointed out that he had nine fingers left (one being missing on his Black Hand, as Gollum noticed), so maybe he just wore them all on his hands. But where was he planning on wearing his One Ring, then, when he got it back? (...DON'T ANSWER THAT!!)

MrDibble
12-08-2006, 03:50 PM
I'm wondering how much access to magic the players should have. Seems to me that magic items in Middle-earth are pretty uncommon, and spell casters are exceedingly rare.

Well, randomly-encountered trolls can have talking purses (with similar dialect as their owners, so probably not dwarf-make), and any Old Took can have magic self-tying diamond cuff links, so maybe not that rare.

Why, yes, I've started rereading The Hobbit today, why do you ask?

DSYoungEsq
12-08-2006, 04:10 PM
The debate hinges on one line in LOTR: when accounting for all the rings of power, Gandalf says "the Nine he has gathered to himself." Is this meant metaphorically (the Nazgul are slaves to Sauron's will) or literally (the rings are in the Black Jewelry Box of Barad-Dur (with a Lidless Eye engraved on the lid, no doubt)).
I can understand that approach, but it seems to me he risks having the Nazgul slowly weaned from his will without the rings attached to them. There is no reason that the rings would have to be left behind if their more overtly physical manifestations were damaged, such as at the ford; presumably the ring can remain attached to the less corporeal, more totally wraithlike version of themselves they would have had to employ.

Not that I want to restart that debate here... :D

Qadgop the Mercotan
12-08-2006, 06:52 PM
Many ring questions may be answered by perusing the {url="http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm"FAQ of the rings[/url].

Here you'll see that Sauron held the 9 himself, so the Witch King wouldn't have lost it on the Fields of Pellenor.

It also addresses that Sauron did have the ring in Numenor, and how carrying it back would have been simple for him (per quotes from JRRT himself).

Lotsa other fun stuff there too! Check it out!

Qadgop the Mercotan
12-08-2006, 06:53 PM
Stupid coding error!

FAQ of the rings (http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm).

Qadgop the Mercotan
12-08-2006, 06:58 PM
Arien, I believe that Merry's sword had its origins in Arnor, not Numenor.

Qadgop the Mercotan
12-08-2006, 07:00 PM
And will Qadgop ever find the time to share his insights into Tom Bombadillo?
My insights into Tom? Basically the same as JRRT's, from what I've read:

Where the F**K did he come from?

Hamlet
12-08-2006, 07:01 PM
Canon?No, magical. I don't think they had cannon powered rings in Middle Earth

Qadgop the Mercotan
12-08-2006, 07:05 PM
If you want to read some trippy stuff about Sauron's rings, read the earliest versions of LOTR (in HOMES) where Sauron made buckets of 'em and handed 'em out left and right, and as a result, elf-wraiths were wandering thru Eriador!

Hypno-Toad
12-11-2006, 10:18 PM
I think you're forgeting the fact that the blade blazed with a white fire, much like Stings blue flame when near orcs. I've seen alot of blades, and not one ever glowed anything without magic.

If I remember right, the wording was that the blade flashed with white fire. This is pretty common metaphor, not meant to be interpreted literally.

Hypno-Toad
12-11-2006, 10:23 PM
And about the glowing of Sting and Glamdring: It's another example of the magic of elven items being due to their affinity to the Elves rather than a intentional enchantment. Being an Elven weapon, the swords inherently "hate" the Elves racial enemies.

What Exit?
12-11-2006, 10:35 PM
If I remember right, the wording was that the blade flashed with white fire. This is pretty common metaphor, not meant to be interpreted literally.
Of course Andúril does mean "Flame of the West", and Narsil has the Quenya's root words of "fire" and "white light".

We also know that Elven forged blades did indeed glow. So Andúril's glowing is by no means out of the question.

Jim

Hypno-Toad
12-11-2006, 11:15 PM
Of course Andúril does mean "Flame of the West", and Narsil has the Quenya's root words of "fire" and "white light".

We also know that Elven forged blades did indeed glow. So Andúril's glowing is by no means out of the question.

Jim
I'm not doubting their magic. Just the nature of it. It's perfectly possible that elven mages cast "Glow" spells on swords to increase the retail price or scribed magic words upon them to give them added cutting power. But this seems like a modern day, D&D-based interpretation. JRRT seemed to use an older idea of magic, that certain items were inherently magical rather than being specifically enchanted with a spell. This is the same kind of thinking as the inherent superiority of noble or royal blood. Some people are just "Better" than others without any kind of outside improvement needed.

Cerowyn
12-11-2006, 11:18 PM
Do we know that all the dwarf rings were eaten by dragons along with their bearers? I wonder how likely a ring bearer would be to face a dragon himself when all he'd have to do is "wish a few dozen of his subjects would do it."We know that at least one was taken from Thráin II when he was imprisoned and tortured by The Necromancer (aka Sauron).

Triskadecamus
12-12-2006, 12:12 AM
"Far, far below the deepest delvings of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he." ~ Gandalf ~

But, ringwraiths, even if not outright destroyed will suffer no less than the same diminisment of power that was expected for the weilders of the Three, which did not lie under Sauron's direct control. The nine were able to keep their wearers in a half living state, from which fear could be used as a weapon, but that half life was entirely under the will of Sauron. His will, given into the One, at its making was broken as the ring was distroyed. Without Sauron, they have no will.

Tris

The Great Sun Jester
12-12-2006, 09:16 AM
The nine were able to keep their wearers in a half living state, from which fear could be used as a weapon, but that half life was entirely under the will of Sauron. His will, given into the One, at its making was broken as the ring was distroyed. Without Sauron, they have no will.

Tris
In other words, the RWs are Sauron-dominated zombie ghosts? That explains why they were always seeking "Bagginnssssss," "Baggins" of course, being the Nemenorian vernacular for "brains."

DSYoungEsq
12-12-2006, 09:41 AM
Many ring questions may be answered by perusing the {url="http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm"FAQ of the rings[/url].

Here you'll see that Sauron held the 9 himself, so the Witch King wouldn't have lost it on the Fields of Pellenor.

It also addresses that Sauron did have the ring in Numenor, and how carrying it back would have been simple for him (per quotes from JRRT himself).

Lotsa other fun stuff there too! Check it out!
I checked it out. It's full of contradictory crap.

Example: The Nine couldn't be wearing rings because they were partially visible. This of course totally ignores the fact that the wearers of the Three weren't ever invisible. :rolleyes:

The whole concept of rings of power giving invisibility hinges on one statement made by Gandalf in Shadow of the Past.

Which brings me to my favorite answer to those who go totally insane over the wealth of material now available (much of it on my own bookshelves (well, it WOULD be if I had my books on shelves right now, but that's another issue entirely)) about Tolkein's creation of LotR and his post-creation thoughts.

The ONLY thing we can be certain of is what made it into print. The rest merely represents JRRT's thought process at any given moment. These thoughts tended to change with time; to try and pin his idea of a thing down to any specific answer is almost impossible. Ask him in the 20's what he thought about a thing, he said x; ask him about the same thing in the 60's and he said not-x.

As to what made it into print, well, there were inconsistencies and unexplainable situations. Tom Bombadil was never explainable under what we know about either in LotR or the Silmarilion. We just have to shrug our shoulders and wonder. If we want to know what rationalizations Tolkein came up with later, we can look to all the crap published by his son, but even then we won't know for certain. :)

Chronos
12-12-2006, 11:01 AM
Example: The Nine couldn't be wearing rings because they were partially visible. This of course totally ignores the fact that the wearers of the Three weren't ever invisible.Yeah, that is pretty sloppy reasoning. My understanding of it is that any person untrained in ringlore would turn invisible on wearing any Great Ring, as e passed over partly into the Spirit World. But someone experienced in the use of a Ring (like, say, Galadriel, or a Nazgul) could effortlessly suppress this effect, as well as using the Ring for other purposes.

And I still maintain that "Who is Tom Bombadil?" "He is." is not only the only explanation there is for Tom, but that it's entirely sufficient as an explanation. He's without a father because he's Tom Bombadil, and Tom Bombadil is without a father. He's not subject to the Ring because he's Tom Bombadil, and Tom Bombadil is not subject to any power. And so on.

Balance
12-12-2006, 11:15 AM
I checked it out. It's full of contradictory crap.

Example: The Nine couldn't be wearing rings because they were partially visible. This of course totally ignores the fact that the wearers of the Three weren't ever invisible. :rolleyes:
Actually, this is also addressed--quite reasonably, I think--in the FAQ. It's in this answer (http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm#Q3-Invisible) in the invisibility section.

I read through the whole FAQ, and while I'm not necessarily convinced by their reasoning on some matters, I certainly wouldn't say it's crap. For the most part, when there's contradictory evidence, they list the evidence on both sides, and offer an opinion.

I would also note that it was Qadgop who posted the link, and I hold considerable respect for his knowledge on this subject. If he thinks the FAQ is good enough to link to it, I'm inclined to take it seriously. (Not as gospel, of course, but seriously.)

Elendil's Heir
12-12-2006, 02:59 PM
I've consulted that Ring FAQ before and was impressed by it. Seemed well-researched, thoughtful and, while recognizing the ambiguities in much of what Tolkien wrote, offered opinions where that was possible.

For a thread I started last year on the "magicalness" of artifacts such as Anduril, see: http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=328716&highlight=anduril

flight
12-12-2006, 04:19 PM
Yeah, that is pretty sloppy reasoning. My understanding of it is that any person untrained in ringlore would turn invisible on wearing any Great Ring, as e passed over partly into the Spirit World. But someone experienced in the use of a Ring (like, say, Galadriel, or a Nazgul) could effortlessly suppress this effect, as well as using the Ring for other purposes.
Not sure I buy that. We know that those who have been in the undying lands (and Maiar like Gandalf) already exist in the spirit realm and therefore would likely not be shifted. Had the other two owners of the Elven rings been to the undying lands?

jayjay
12-12-2006, 04:33 PM
Not sure I buy that. We know that those who have been in the undying lands (and Maiar like Gandalf) already exist in the spirit realm and therefore would likely not be shifted. Had the other two owners of the Elven rings been to the undying lands?

The other three owners. Gil-Galad, who wore Vilya before Elrond, never had. Neither had Elrond. Cirdan, who wore Narya before giving it to Gandalf, was Moriquendi as well. He never left Middle-Earth, having been persuaded to tarry in Beleriand by Osse during the Great Journey.

MonkeyMule
12-12-2006, 09:38 PM
Henry IV of England is the king you mentioned. He didn't die
from battle wounds, rather a disfiguring disease that took several years to kill him. We don't know what the disease was. The Jerusalem chamber story sounds like fiction, although that is where Henry died.

According to this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_IV_of_England) page:

It is said in Holinshed (and taken up in Shakespeare's play) that it was predicted to Henry he would die in Jerusalem. Henry took this to mean that he would die on crusade, but in fact it meant that, in 1413, he died in the Jerusalem Chamber in the house of the Abbot of Westminster. He died with his executor Thomas Langley at his side.

So it may not be 100% fiction, though urban legand turned play it might be.

Qadgop the Mercotan
12-12-2006, 09:44 PM
I checked it out. It's full of contradictory crap.
Perfect and canon? No. Full of crap? I don't think so.

It gives a lot of good data, some decent cites from JRRT himself (and some contradictory statements from him too), and recognizes the inherent problems in speaking definitively in an indefinite world. And it's a work in progress, having been further edited as recently as last month, after having been up for years. It'll settle a few arguments, provide decent justification for other arguments, and will open one's mind to a few new ideas.

MrDibble
12-13-2006, 01:12 AM
The debate hinges on one line in LOTR: when accounting for all the rings of power, Gandalf says "the Nine he has gathered to himself." Is this meant metaphorically (the Nazgul are slaves to Sauron's will) or literally (the rings are in the Black Jewelry Box of Barad-Dur (with a Lidless Eye engraved on the lid, no doubt)).

Missed this - did you read the full quote?
"The Nine he has gathered to Himself. The Seven also, or else destroyed"

Since we don't see any half-sized wraiths riding around on black ponies (not that that happens to Dwarfs), and we know that in at least one case (Dain II, IIRC), a Dwarf's ring was forcibly taken from him under torture, we can assume the remark about the 7 is quite literal. It follows that it is literal in the case of the 9, too.

Malacandra
12-13-2006, 05:03 AM
Missed this - did you read the full quote?
"The Nine he has gathered to Himself. The Seven also, or else destroyed"

Since we don't see any half-sized wraiths riding around on black ponies (not that that happens to Dwarfs), and we know that in at least one case (Dain II, IIRC), a Dwarf's ring was forcibly taken from him under torture, we can assume the remark about the 7 is quite literal. It follows that it is literal in the case of the 9, too.

No, it was Thrain. "Balin will find no ring in Moria. Thror gave it to Thrain, but not Thrain to Thorin. It was taken from him with torment in the dungeons of Dol Guldur. I came too late". -- Gandalf.

We're also told somewhere that dwarves could not be reduced to wraiths. Aüle gave his creations an extra dose of bloodymindedness as he knew what Melkor was up to by then. They couldn't be dominated either; what the Seven could do was make them greedy for gold and unsatisfied with anything if they didn't have gold. That worked incidentally to Sauron's benefit, but no more.

Polycarp
12-13-2006, 06:18 AM
Now, the real question is, what would happen if a Balrog took a Ring of Power and slipped it onto one of his wingtips? :D

MrDibble
12-13-2006, 07:51 AM
We're also told somewhere that dwarves could not be reduced to wraiths. Aüle gave his creations an extra dose of bloodymindedness as he knew what Melkor was up to by then. They couldn't be dominated either; what the Seven could do was make them greedy for gold and unsatisfied with anything if they didn't have gold. That worked incidentally to Sauron's benefit, but no more.

I know, that's why I had the parenthetical.

I wonder what happens to Elves? I know we have some indication of elf-wraiths but is there anything canonical? Hobbits I know are possible, or so Gandalf and Elrond seem to think in Many Meetings, but Gollum resisted incorporealization for centuries. Is it just because he didn't wear the ring a lot? What about other thinking folks. Eagles? They'd be their own Fell Beasts, heh heh.

Mmm, ent-wraiths - kinda like a scene from an Evil Dead movie?

flight
12-13-2006, 08:09 AM
I think we can say that it does not matter what would happen to an elf if they wore one of the seven or nine as they just would never do it. Elves had their fill of Sauron and knew full well about the rings. They weren't having any of it.