Whence the idea that Satan rules Hell?

[Mister Rik]

We in Western culture are all familiar with the image of bad people going to Hell when they die, there to be eternally tormented by Satan and his minions. However, according to the Bible, Hell is a place created by God to punish Satan, along with his minions and bad people. It would seem difficult to describe Satan "ruling" Hell while he's boiling in the lake of fire.

So where did this idea of Hell being a kingdom with the Devil on its throne come from? While the popular image fits with a dualistic mythology, it doesn't match up with Biblical doctrine. Yet there are some who think that God's in Heaven, Satan's in Hell, and they're engaged in a war as they attempt to tip the balance of good and evil on Earth.

Should I blame Machiavelli?

[Epimetheus]

Should I blame Machiavelli?

If there should be any blame other than the dualistic nature of many ancient religions, one could say that Zoroastrianism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroastrianism) is to blame.

[Derleth]

It's easier to explain why bad things happen if you posit the existence of a strong force in the world actively working to promote evil. There are passages in the Bible (particularly Job's persecution) from when Satan was a 'prosecuting attorney' that seem to support the idea that Satan is the chief instigator of that force.

It's interesting to note how many depictions of Satan exist in our culture. Dante had him frozen in a lake of ice, his giant wings constantly beating but merely serving to keep his prison cold enough to contain him. At least he had a few snacks. Milton makes him an anarchist, or at least a rebel in the model of Washington and Thoreau. As Lucifer he's a jilted lover who cannot accept that he's no longer the center of God's affections. In the story of Job he is a skeptic God is willing to listen to and humor, even if it means tormenting a loyal servant. In the modern folk mythology he ranges from being a sadistic and cynical tyrant looking to expand his power base to being the warden of a large and imaginatively-designed prison.

[Mister Rik]

Dante. I meant to say Dante, not Machiavelli.

The bit re: Job is interesting. The way I've always heard it, and indeed the Bible seems to support the idea, is that Satan is actually living on Earth, not in some Hell somewhere. The book of Job describes Satan wandering to and fro across the Earth; the serpent lived in the Garden of Eden; Isaiah describes Lucifer falling from the sky to Earth (I'm speaking from the Christian perspective that Satan, the serpent, and Lucifer are all the same person). I don't have the reference at hand, but Satan is called "the prince of this world" in there someplace. And yet, I even find the occasional Christian who believes that Satan rules Hell. "Shriek! Don't listen to that band! They're Satanic! Their music comes straight from Hell! Shriek!" (Hi Mom!)

[R. P. McMurphy]

Read "Origin of Satan" by Elaine Pagels. She answers you question in depth.

[Alessan]

It's rather that the Satan of Job is a completely different being that that of the NT. The Dualistic Satan of Christianity - the idea that any being, even an angel, is capable of threatening God - is contrary to Jewish theology. The OT Satan is a divine servent, just like every other angel, and his job is to challenge humanity, see if we're functioning properly. God's troubleshooter, if you will.

[psychonaut]

Read "Origin of Satan" by Elaine Pagels. She answers you question in depth.Since you've obviously read the book, why don't you do us a favour and answer the question in brief?

[Will Repair]

Since you've ... read the book, ... answer the question in brief?

An atrocious book.


I've often wondered if the Western concept of a devil talking in one ear and an angel talking into the other ear is a variation of the Islamic hadith of two angels behind us at all times, one recording good deeds and the one on the left side recording evil deeds.

If so then perhaps also the Islamic idea of Satan influenced Western culture. In Islam, Satan is Jinn, not angel, who refused to bow to Adam. God condems him but puts off the punishment when Satan says he will prove how unworthy man is.

Other hadith have:
Satan on a throne in the middle of the ocean. (Which corresponds to a biblical reference quoted in the book mentioned.)

[dasfuritad]

It comes from the bible. Satan is referred to as having power, being a ruler, and having a kingdom more than once in the Bible. And im no historian either but i think the word Satan means that also.

[Chronos]

The Dualistic Satan of Christianity - the idea that any being, even an angel, is capable of threatening God - is contrary to Jewish theology.It's counter to Christian theology, too. Sure, Satan promises Jesus all sorts of things, but that doesn't imply that he has the ability to keep those promises.

And the word "Satan" means "Adversary".

[njtt]

Dante. I meant to say Dante, not Machiavelli.

Milton (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradise_lost) surely had a lot to do with cementing the idea into people's minds, too.

I thought you might have meant Mani (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manichean), who did a lot to bring Zoroastrian ideas about the conflicting powers of good and evil into Christianity.

An atrocious book.


Would you care to tell us why you think that? I have not read it, so I do not know, but Pagels is a very respected scholar.

[tomndebb]

The word Satan, in Hebrew, meant an adversary or opponent. The earliest reference using that word/name, is probably the Book of Job, (often held to be one of the oldest works in the bible), in which Satan is simply a member of God's court, charged with testing humans for their fidelity to God. When God comments on Job's blameless faith, Satan points out that since God has granted Job his every desire, Job has no reason to turn from God. God then grants Satan the power to remove all of Job's family and possessions to see whether he will turn from God, which Job does not.

When the Septuagint, (the Greek translation of the Hebrew bible made in Egypt), was created between the third and second centuries B.C.E., the word satan was often translated to Greek as diabolus, or slanderer. I do not know what the beliefs of the Jewish diaspora in Egypt were that might have resulted in that translation.

In the various intertestamental works, (those Jewish and, later, early Christian writings), that influenced religious beliefs, but never made it into the scriptural canon of either the Jews or the Christians), the figure variously identified as Satan or the "diabolos" is depicted as a leader of rebelling angels who has his own powerful "kingdom" set up against God.
These intertestamental works provided much of the mythology that informed the early Christian comments about "the devil" (one translation of the Greek diabolos), hell, and related topics that are not found in either the Christian or Hebrew Scriptures. These works included several Books of Enoch, the Assumption of Moses, the Book of Jubilees, and others.
(Kanicbird's claim about the sacrifice of Isaac comes from the Book of Jubilees, in which the demon Mastema, (meaning Hostility) plays the same role that Satan does in Job, persuading God to order the sacrifice as a test. In the Book of Jubilees, several acts from the Hebrew Scriptures in which God behaves violently are re-written to have Mastema either commit the act or persuade God to do so. While Mastema is a demon, (perhaps sired by a fallen angel on a human woman), he acts in accordance with God's will in the way that Satan does throughout Hebrew Scripture. However, having taken the role of the "bad guy," in later works his actions are attributed to evil.)

As Christian beliefs were written down and then expanded upon in commentaries, there was a certain amount of effort put into reconciling different passages and showing that separate metaphors referred to the same things. Following, not Hebrew Scriptures, but the intertestamental works, the letters of Paul refer to Satan on several occasions, not as God's prosecutor, but as an enemy of God, and the 1st Letter of Peter refers to "the devil" (diabolos) in the same way. In Revelation, 12:9 and 20:2, the dragon is explicitly called the "devil" (diabolos) and Satan. Thus any references to anyone "testing," serpentine, or deceitful were collected together to "mean" the same thing, thus bringing together the serpent in the Garden of Eden, the tester of Job, (since the Christians were using diabolos/slanderer from the Septuagint rather than Satan/opponent from the Hebrew Scriptures), the ruler of the fallen angels, and the ruler of Hell. Lucifer is simply the Latin word for "light bearer" and translates the phrase "son of the dawn" from Isaiah 14:12. When Christian writers began to collect all the various "bad" beings whom God would overthrow, Lucifer got picked up and tossed into the mix.

[thelabdude]

I haven't read Dante and little of Milton. I have read the Screwtape Letters. I found it quite amusing and am afraid many things are that way, ''important books'', the influence of a Christian women, field workers contempt for academics, etc. I also remember the references to ''our Father below. Now in order to make his book work, C. S. Lewis may well have knowingly used common images of Satan rather than Biblically accurate ones.

I don't remember extensive references in the Bible to either Satan or Hell. He clearly is about in the world, but with Hell being the underworld, it would also be his dominion. Hell is the city dump where trash is burned and not a pleasant place otherwise, but most important, cut off from God. As I age and fall into the hands of the medical profession more and more, I feel those that talk excessively about their body functions will get to spend eternity listening to others talk about their fat, old, dysfunctional bodies. I hope my reticence and faith allows me to go where I get a new body.

[Mister Rik]

Would you care to tell us why you think that? I have not read it, so I do not know, but Pagels is a very respected scholar.

Just a heads-up - this thread is a zombie (I started it six years ago). I don't think Will Repair is still around to respond to you (at least I don't recall seeing the name any time recently).

Hmmm... Zombie Satan thread...

[Elendil's Heir]

I'll just put in a word for Wayne Barlowe's Barlowe's Inferno and God's Demon, both heavily influenced by Dante's vision of Hell. The first is a picture book, a travelogue of the underworld, while the second is a novel about a senior demon carrying out an insurrection against Satan in order to be restored to Heaven. They're surprisingly spiritual, uplifting books, I thought.

[robinson]

"Hel" is the Norse land of the dead, located beneath the roots of the world tree, Yggdrasil. Some have portrayed it as a land of eternal cold. Our concept of Hell and Satan is multi-cultural, and not very biblical.

[robinson]

I do not know what the beliefs of the Jewish diaspora in Egypt were that might have resulted in that translation.I think the Israelites picked up a lot of foreign ideas in Babylon.

[tomndebb]

I think the Israelites picked up a lot of foreign ideas in Babylon.Well, there is even a notion that Judaism only came to be during the Babylonian Captivity.

That said, however, while both Persia and Egypt were centers of Jewish theological scholarship for many years in ways that Judaea never was, that point still does not indicate why the word "adversary" would be translated as "slanderer."
Mainstream Judaism, (probably sticking closer to the Hebrew version of Scripture), never lost the notion that Satan was God's servant while Christianity, using the Septuagint, changed Satan into an enemy of God. The intertestamental works, (frequently called Apocrypha), arose from the Jewish community, although written in Greek, but following the Jewish Rebellion of 67 - 70 and the destruction of the Temple, Judaism became much more conservative and those Apocryphal works were never considered to be Scripture.
Unfortunately, that still leaves unexplained that particular translation choice.

[kanicbird]

It's rather that the Satan of Job is a completely different being that that of the NT. The Dualistic Satan of Christianity .

There is no duality, it's a different viewpoint of the same thing. It is like being in a oppressive country where everyone is taught to show love for the government leaders. The government controls the information and education and the people just don't know how evil the government is - this is the satanic kingdom.

In the NT God through Jesus reveals just how evil Satan has been to them, how Satan twisted the story so that God gets the blame, and how the people don't need to live under the rules and commandments that Satan is enforcing on the people. Satan is totally consistant, just that his kingdom is threatened by the truth of God that was revealed.

[thelabdude]

The New Testament is seen as a further revelation of God beyond the Old. Can't say where, but doesn't one of the Gospels have Jesus referring to Satan as the father of lies? Fits well with slanderer. The commandments single out false witnesses.

[tullsterx]

There is no duality, it's a different viewpoint of the same thing. It is like being in a oppressive country where everyone is taught to show love for the government leaders. The government controls the information and education and the people just don't know how evil the government is - this is the satanic kingdom.

In the NT God through Jesus reveals just how evil Satan has been to them, how Satan twisted the story so that God gets the blame, and how the people don't need to live under the rules and commandments that Satan is enforcing on the people. Satan is totally consistant, just that his kingdom is threatened by the truth of God that was revealed.

I find this ridiculous. In truth, as written in the New Testament, Jesus went into the desert to be *tested by Satan*. Jesus went to Satan. Satan served a purpose in God/Jesus's plan in the NT. As presented in the NT there should be a Quad-something, like The Father/The Son/ The Holy Ghost/ and the Tester.

[tomndebb]

This thread was opened in General Questions looking for a factual answer to a question regarding the development of an idea.

Please do not clutter it up with odd theological speculation or arguments. We have a forum for that--Great Debates--and if anyone would like to carry on that particular conversation, one should open their own thread in that forum.

(I am not looking forward to seeing such a thread in my domain, but we should really try to avoid dragging perfectly good General Questions into other fora in order to fight over personal beliefs.

[ /Not quite Moderating ]

[tullsterx]

As stated above, it is within biblical doctrine, and is stated in the bible, if only by Satan himself, that Satan has dominion over the earth. The Bible does not state clearly whether this was one of Satan's lies.

But, also, there are instances in the bible where Satan is not banished to Hell at all, such as in Job. Where he functions again as part of God's entourage.

And to the moderators, this whole thread should not be in GQ anyway in my opinion.

[Diceman]

And to the moderators, this whole thread should not be in GQ anyway in my opinion.

Of course it should. It's a factual question regarding the origin of the modern concept of the Devil.

It certainly does not come from Dante. I've read the Inferno, and it has Satan as a prisoner in the deepest, most inaccessable part of Hell.

[thelabdude]

I guess I can either read Dante or quit blaming him for Satan in the red suit, pointed tail, horns, and pitch fork. I had always though much of the non Biblical lore of Satan and Hell came from the Inferno. So when did pitch forks come into use? I don't remember any references to them in the Bible. My memory is a sorry source. The concordance I just checked isn't. No mention of a pitchfork. So it looks like the Devil with a pitchfork came later. That leaves us with only about 2,000 years to sort through. One needs to be careful of books and paintings. I understand the table in the last supper painting was just like the ones in the room where the monks ate. Of course, the pitch fork could have been added to an older image when it was a hot, new technology.

[BMalion]

I think the Israelites picked up a lot of foreign ideas in Babylon.

Alas.

[tomndebb]

And to the moderators, this whole thread should not be in GQ anyway in my opinion.I am curious why you hold that view. The character Satan appears in several different works within the bible, (and outside it), and that character is assigned different appearances and personalities. Identifying which traits in which works of literature are assigned to a character named "Satan" is a question with a factual answer, regardless what any specific religious, (or non-religious or irreligious), groups may express as their current views of that character.

[Chronos]

I think that the pitchforks are actually tridents, like Neptune used, and come from the tradition of identifying the previous culture's gods with the present culture's demons (similar to how demons are depicted as resembling Pan).

[Colibri]

This thread was opened in General Questions looking for a factual answer to a question regarding the development of an idea.

Please do not clutter it up with odd theological speculation or arguments. We have a forum for that--Great Debates--and if anyone would like to carry on that particular conversation, one should open their own thread in that forum.

(I am not looking forward to seeing such a thread in my domain, but we should really try to avoid dragging perfectly good General Questions into other fora in order to fight over personal beliefs.

[ /Not quite Moderating ]

[Moderating]

Agreed. The OP has a factual answer and is a legitimate topic for GQ. Posters who wish to debate theological aspects should start another thread in Great Debates.

Colibri
General Questions Moderator

[tazmin98]

Does the common image of Stan having red skin have to do with the fact he is in fiery pits of hell?
Since he used to be a former angel, isn't he supposed to be 'beautiful'?
I always thought Satan was somewhat like Hades. Passive. They're both misunderstood(Not sure on Satan)
I like the Greek version of afterlife. If you are a bad person, you're sent to Tartarus but you don't stay there for an eternity. You're sent off to your next incarnation.
If you're middle(neither good and bad ), you go to the Asphodel Meadows.
If you're really good, you go to the Elysion Fields.

Kinda of a Heaven/Hell/Purgatory hybrid.

[thelabdude]

I think that the pitchforks are actually tridents, like Neptune used, and come from the tradition of identifying the previous culture's gods with the present culture's demons (similar to how demons are depicted as resembling Pan).

One tends to see what one is familiar with. I have seen many pitchforks, but not sure about a real trident. It is also possible some artists may have been more familiar with pitchforks. I think tridents have straight tines with the center one longer, and pitchforks have equal length curved ones. My concordance doesn't have tridents in it either.

OK we have Satan, dressed in red with horns, a long tail with an arrowhead like tip, and carrying a trident and ruling Hell. Those familiar with the Bible and the Inferno doubt them as the source. It seems we are getting no closer to a good answer to the OP's original question.

[BigT]

I am curious why you hold that view. The character Satan appears in several different works within the bible, (and outside it), and that character is assigned different appearances and personalities. Identifying which traits in which works of literature are assigned to a character named "Satan" is a question with a factual answer, regardless what any specific religious, (or non-religious or irreligious), groups may express as their current views of that character.

It's still debatable, though. Who knows exactly where the idea that Satan rules hell comes from? Even if you discount the belief-based answers, you still have people differing on where the concept comes from. One person says the Bible itself. Another Zoroastrianism. Yet another claims that the Bible says it cannot come from the Bible.

And then you have the large number of people who cannot help but put their own beliefs in, too. I wish Miller luck, but, save this thread dying, I don't see people being able to resist very well when even the second answer is an opinion, and then the OP even responds to it.

[Colibri]

It's still debatable, though. Who knows exactly where the idea that Satan rules hell comes from? Even if you discount the belief-based answers, you still have people differing on where the concept comes from. One person says the Bible itself. Another Zoroastrianism. Yet another claims that the Bible says it cannot come from the Bible.

And then you have the large number of people who cannot help but put their own beliefs in, too. I wish Miller luck, but, save this thread dying, I don't see people being able to resist very well when even the second answer is an opinion, and then the OP even responds to it.

What does Miller have to do with it, other than being a co-ruler of the Straight Dope's Hell?;)

People may differ on where the concept comes from, but most of those answers are still fact-based. I regard the second answer as being well within General Questions territory.

A discussion of the various possible origins of the image of Satan is fine for General Questions. A religious debate on the nature of Satan is not.

Colibri
General Questions Moderator

[Gagundathar]

This may be one of the passages that serves to provide some basis for the myth:

“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.'" -- Matthew 25:41 (NIV)

But that indicates a future time when 'the devil and his angels' will be cast into the eternal fire.
It actually indicates that such has not yet happened.
Especially in context of this:
"Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death." -- Revelation 20:14 (NIV)

So, I posit that the entire idea is a construct devised by Milton and expanded upon by Dante with the blessings of Mother Church.

It is needful of any power regime to have an active and present danger to the populace in order to unify and control them. This myth has done quite well for more than 1600 years, I would guess.

[Colibri]

One tends to see what one is familiar with. I have seen many pitchforks, but not sure about a real trident. It is also possible some artists may have been more familiar with pitchforks. I think tridents have straight tines with the center one longer, and pitchforks have equal length curved ones. My concordance doesn't have tridents in it either.

The implement held by the devil/Satan is generally thought to originate from the trident of Poseidon/Neptune. Poseidon had his negative side, being the cause of storms at sea and of earthquakes. In turn, Poseidon may have derived his trident from earlier (http://www.daimonas.com/images/neo-hittite-storm-gods1.jpg) gods (http://a21.idata.over-blog.com/600x450/1/99/81/23/37--GAZIANTEP/02.jpg) of the Middle East or even India. (http://www.oldcoin.com.au/cng81kushan.jpg)

The pitchfork, as an agricultural implement without this previous symbolic history, is unlikely to have been the origin of Satan's implement. However, it is easy to see how the original trident could have later been transformed into a pitchfork in popular imagery, since the latter would have been much more familiar to agricultural cultures.

The Greek god Pan, (http://pierion.20m.com/gallery01/afroditi.jpg) with his horns and goat's feet, is an obvious source of some of the imagery associated with Satan.

[DocCathode]

"Hel" is the Norse land of the dead, located beneath the roots of the world tree, Yggdrasil.

Wrong.


Nifleheim is the land of the dead who have died without honor. It is ruled by Loki's daughter, Hel.

Some have portrayed it as a land of eternal cold.

Make that everyone. The name of Hel's hall translates as Damp With Sleet. Inside the hall the dishonored are chained to long tables while serpents (and Niddhoggr/Nithhoggar) bite them. It rains, snows, and sleets constantly.

[florez]

Make that everyone. The name of Hel's hall translates as Damp With Sleet. Inside the hall the dishonored are chained to long tables while serpents (and Niddhoggr/Nithhoggar) bite them. It rains, snows, and sleets constantly.



It sounds like Winter in Southeast Alaska, but without the biting serpents and chains.

[The Other Waldo Pepper]

This may be one of the passages that serves to provide some basis for the myth:

“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.'" -- Matthew 25:41 (NIV)

But that indicates a future time when 'the devil and his angels' will be cast into the eternal fire.

How do you figure? Let's say you prepare an eternal fire for the devil and his angels, and after casting 'em in it -- well, if it's eternal, then it's still burning, right? So you could, years later, refer to casting yet other folks into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels, just as you might someday find yourself putting a different baby in the crib you made for your son, or touring a house that was built for Thomas Jefferson, or whatever.

[Chronos]

So, I posit that the entire idea is a construct devised by Milton and expanded upon by Dante with the blessings of Mother Church.That, at least, I'm certain isn't the correct answer, given that Dante preceded Milton by a few centuries.