If drafted to serve in Iraq or the Middle East would you go?

[astro]

Let's say that in the not too distant future, various radical Islamic elements become ascendant throughout the Middle East, and the region becomes completely unstable, and our oil supply from the Saudis etc. is threatened. Bush (or whomever he hands the problem off to) realizes we don't have enough bodies to fill the miltary slots, so a draft is initiated.

This is directed to the male dopers as the likelihood of female draft is beyond remote. Forget about your age for a moment, and whether or not your are in the demographic cross-hairs for this, would you serve if called up?


I consider myself pretty patriotic, but if called up to defend our oil supply, I think I would resist being drafted.

[Quartz]

If push really came to shove, we'd simply nuke them and send in clean-up crews.

[Ethilrist]

Hey, if it gets to the point where they need to start drafting pacifist diabetics with poor vision, I'd go.

[astro]

If push really came to shove, we'd simply nuke them and send in clean-up crews.

Radical insurgents are expanding their power by radicalizing, or otherwise co-opting, the the native population. Who precisely are we going to nuke?

[garygnu]

If I felt the United States was in danger, I would serve.

[Count Blucher]

If I got tapped, I'd suck it up and go. If they tried to take my sons, I'd have them across the border so fast their heads would spin. End of story.

[Captain Amazing]

I don't really understand the question. If I'm drafted, I have to go, so yeah, if I was drafted, I'd go. I wouldn't want to go, obviously.

[Loach]

I was smart enough to avoid the draft by enlisting in the army. No way those bastards are going to get me!

[astro]

I don't really understand the question. If I'm drafted, I have to go, so yeah, if I was drafted, I'd go. I wouldn't want to go, obviously.

An admirable sentiment, and pre-Iraq I probably would have shared that sentiment, however, watching the current war in Iraq unfold has caused a sea change in my attitudes regarding the moral authority of the President, and the government to wage war. The assumption that the powers that be know what they're doing, has vanished like a fog being burnt off by the sun. I look at the squirming, specious rationales by civilian and military leaders for why we have almost 3000 dead soldiers and countless dead Iraqis, and the lies and stupidity makes me want to vomit.

Beyond the lives of my children and loved ones, my life is one of my most precious assets. If called to serve and stand by the United States to quell Middle east uprisings, I would have little confidence at this point regarding whatever reasons the US Government would put forward that would necessitate this. After the Iraq debacle I no longer trust the government to do the right thing.

[OneCentStamp]

I would be willing to serve in a support capacity, whether that's changing oil filters on Jeeps or slinging creamed chipped beef on toast.

[Bosda Di'Chi of Tricor]

I'm 43.

If a draft began, & 43 year olds were declared draftable, I would leave before I got the notice.

America is in no danger from Iraq, & we could leave whenever we wanted to. I refuse to give one day of my life, much less die, so Bushie Jr. can prove how much bigger his dick is than his Daddy's.

[Sal Ammoniac]

O Canada! Our home and native land!
True patriot love in all thy sons command.
With glowing hearts we see thee rise,
The True North strong and free!
From far and wide,
O Canada, we stand on guard for thee.
God keep our land glorious and free!
O Canada, we stand on guard for thee.
O Canada, we stand on guard for thee.

[What Exit?]

On 9/11 I was prepared to re-enlist or offer my services as a Computer Professional to the Military if there was a call. This is what is known as a knee-jerk reaction. Many of my friends that I served with felt the same way.

Today, having watched the disaster known as the Bush-Cheney-Rumsfeld administration unfold, I do not believe I would be willing to serve and I would seek to avoid it.

Jim

[Quartz]

Radical insurgents are expanding their power by radicalizing, or otherwise co-opting, the the native population. Who precisely are we going to nuke?
Whoosh!

[AskNott]

When I was draft-eligible during the Vietnam era (another unnecessary war,) I delayed my fate by going to college for a year and a half. I had decided that, if drafted, I would go. The alternatives were Canada or prison. As it turned out, I got as far as the draft physical, where I was declared physically unqualified for service. I felt very fortunate, and I have never wished it had gone differently.

I respect those who served. I respect those who fled to Canada, too. I also respect those who, like Muhammed Ali, stood their ground and went to prison rather than going out to kill people who had done us no harm before the war. Better them than me.

[lazybratsche]

Hmm. Tough question. If I perceived any sort of valid reason at all for the war, and a draft was called, I'd probably start in the Air Force ROTC, or maybe find work with some defense contractor. First, a lot of my family has been career Air Force. Second, I'd be able to contribute a hell of a lot better as some sort of analyst or engineer type, while I'd be less useful as a grunt. Finally, and this is not unimportant, this way I'd have a hell of a lot less risk of being killed.

But I may not see a valid justification. For example, war in Iran that the neocons seem to lust after is not justified in any way, unless they attack us first in some major way. In this case, I'd probably try to find some other legal exemption, like non-military government or academic research, which is sort of where I'm headed at the moment.

[gonzomax]

Iran is on the short list.

[dalej42]

I'd defect to Cuba!

Seriously, I'd renounce my citizenship before serving in Iraq.

[Spiff]

Hell no! I won't go!

For reasons, see above posts by What Exit?, Bosda Di'Chi of Tricor, astro, etc.

[Elendil's Heir]

I think, like Dick Cheney during the Vietnam War, I would very likely have "other priorities." If another WW2 or Civil War comes along, though, I'm all over that. Gimme a good war any day.

[Elendil's Heir]

O Canada! Our home and native land!
True patriot love in all thy sons command....


Should we count that as another "No," then?

[Least Original User Name Ever]

They can completely kiss my ass. I'm not talking a few sparse pecks. No, I want every bit of it covered with lips at one point or another.


And even then I wouldn't go.

[Marley23]

If drafted to serve in Iraq or the Middle East, I would go...

To Canada. Immediately.

[sugar and spice]

This is directed to the male dopers as the likelihood of female draft is beyond remote. Its hypothetical anyhow, why not open up to women? Israel has mandatory conscription for women. And in theory you can draft women into non-combat roles: Roosevelt proposed drafting nurses during WWII cite (http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,775362,00.html). I'm not trying to trivialize military service here, I just think its a legitimate question for women to ask themselves too, since we also benefit/suffer from our country's actions.

I would try to get out of it legally, and if that failed I would go. I wouldn't be in a combat role (since I'm female), so the consequences of not going seem scarier.

[Seven]

I think, like Dick Cheney during the Vietnam War, I would very likely have "other priorities." If another WW2 or Civil War comes along, though, I'm all over that. Gimme a good war any day.


Those are my thoughts. If the US faced a real threat, I would be right there for her. If someone invaded the States, and they needed help, I'd pick up a gun.

Iraq was never a proper threat to the US. I see it more as a money grab for Halliburton, a way for Bush II to one up his daddy and catch Saddam, and the US securing a location of "friendly" oil. Those are not reasons to fight and die.

That said, I have left the US partly because of the above listed reasons. The whole thing makes me sick and ashamed of being an 'American".

I will defend the USA if she really needs it and will also defend my new homeland Canada if she needs it, but I will never pick up a gun for a cash grab or political pride.

[Aunt Flow]

I'm female so I'm sure it would never come down to me being drafted (even though my dad supports female drafting), but hypothetically....no, I wouldn't go. I think it's ridiculous what's going on over there and there's no way in hell I'd risk my life for it. During Vietnam, my dad was nearing drafting age and did NOT want to end up front lines. So he lied about his age (he was barely 17) and enlisted in the Marines. He went over to Vietnam but not as the 'grunts' so to speak. My brothers...I'm sure both of them would go to the draft if called, since we were raised a military family and they both did a bit of Reserves work.

[Captain_C]

Negative, you'd see me at the local prison.

Not that I'm against military service mind you. I'm actually seriously considering joining the Air Force.
I am, however, extremely opposed to people "making" me do things.

[Airman Doors, USAF]

Negative, you'd see me at the local prison.

Not that I'm against military service mind you. I'm actually seriously considering joining the Air Force.
I am, however, extremely opposed to people "making" me do things.

May I suggest then that you do not join the Air Force. There is absolutely no way that you can avoid being made to do things if you join the military.

[wolf_meister]

astro
I was of draft age during the Vietnam War. I went to college form 1969 through 1973. The Vietnam War and the draft ended in 1973 and I consider myself very fortunate.

I am SO glad you started this topic.
In my Straight Dope posting history I have been one of the most vocal beraters of the lily-livered chickenhawks (most of whom are conservative) who are so quick to answer their country's patriotic call by sending others to do the fighting. Thomas Paine called such folks "summer soldiers" and "sunshine patriots".
Two of the most egregious examples of which are:
• John Engler - former governor of Michigan failed his draft physical during the Vietnam War because he was 2 pounds overweight - yes TWO f***ing pounds. :mad:
• Jack Kemp had a medical deferment from serving (also during the Vietnam War). Luckily he bravely rallied his resolve and was able to play quarterback for the Buffalo Bills. :mad:

Who knows, maybe you folks will be lucky enough to have a father who can get you into the Texas National Guard.

Yes, things will really get stirred up if a draft is instituted (and it will start again someday). If the current draft age population wishes to follow the ways of these "glorious" leaders, I imagine we won't see too many Nathan Hale or Patrick Tillman types.

Airman Doors - good to see you involved in this discussion.

[Left Hand of Dorkness]

It's great to believe in ideals; it's great to organize around ideals. Love for a nation-state is something that I find to be very harmful and dangerous, however; the idea of patriotism is something that I cannot appreciate.

The only possible way I'd fight in a war is if I became thoroughly convinced that the evil I'd do as a soldier paled next to the evil I'd do by not being a soldier. And there's next to no chance that I'd become convinced that would be true in the Middle East. So my question would be: CO status? Move to another country? Resist and go to prison? Or duck under the system?

I owe nothing to the nation-state, so none of these choices are more honorable than the others, IMO; it'd just be a question of how much of a martyr I wanted to be for this particular cause.

Daniel

[Airman Doors, USAF]

I owe nothing to the nation-state, so none of these choices are more honorable than the others, IMO; it'd just be a question of how much of a martyr I wanted to be for this particular cause.

Since your objection is mostly philosophical, I'd like to add a philosophical point of my own in response:

You do owe to the nation-state. What you are, what you have become, and what you will do in the future is entirely a function of your surroundings. The mere fact that you are able to post your opinion here is proof of your debt to your nation-state: what you perceive as a privilege, maybe even a right, is nothing more than a luxury that millions cannot afford. Your nation, through its technology, economy, and innovation has made such luxuries affordable to common citizens. Contrast that with people who cannot afford to do something as simple as eat, or people who are persecuted on a regular basis for having so little as a slightly different belief.

The question then becomes this: what are you willing to do, how far are you willing to go, to allow this state of affairs to continue into perpetuity, or even to affect some change in the future? It is understandable that in some cases you steadfastly disagree with what your government is doing, and you have that right. You also are allowed the right to abstain from or reject your nation's demand that you serve. But to say that you don't owe is absurd. That is why, barring a CO classification, people have to pay their debt in jail.

Those are my principles, and I have been fortunate that I joined a unit that doesn't actively participate in killing, but at the same time I am cognizant that the organization I am a part of is complicit in the deaths of human beings, therefore I am complicit. Don't think that doesn't weigh upon me. I originally justified it by saying that we were doing the right thing. When that justification was proven false I found myself in quite the ethical quandary, one that I struggle with on a regular basis. However, I am also cognizant of the fact that while this war is wrong, the next one will (may) not be, and I have an obligation to my nation and my fellow citizens to be prepared to fight the next one. That's what I have fallen back on. Whether I'm right or wrong is a matter of debate. But I owe, and I'm paying my debt the best that I can. I'm paying it to my family members who went before me to fight what you might consider "real" enemies. I'm paying it to the people who cannot go. I'm even paying it so that you have the right to say that you will not go. But don't tell me that you don't owe. You owe. We all do.

[What Exit?]

Since your objection is mostly philosophical, I'd like to add a philosophical point of my own in response:

You do owe to the nation-state. What you are, what you have become, and what you will do in the future is entirely a function of your surroundings. The mere fact that you are able to post your opinion here is proof of your debt to your nation-state: what you perceive as a privilege, maybe even a right, is nothing more than a luxury that millions cannot afford. Your nation, through its technology, economy, and innovation has made such luxuries affordable to common citizens. Contrast that with people who cannot afford to do something as simple as eat, or people who are persecuted on a regular basis for having so little as a slightly different belief.

The question then becomes this: what are you willing to do, how far are you willing to go, to allow this state of affairs to continue into perpetuity, or even to affect some change in the future? It is understandable that in some cases you steadfastly disagree with what your government is doing, and you have that right. You also are allowed the right to abstain from or reject your nation's demand that you serve. But to say that you don't owe is absurd. That is why, barring a CO classification, people have to pay their debt in jail.

Those are my principles, and I have been fortunate that I joined a unit that doesn't actively participate in killing, but at the same time I am cognizant that the organization I am a part of is complicit in the deaths of human beings, therefore I am complicit. Don't think that doesn't weigh upon me. I originally justified it by saying that we were doing the right thing. When that justification was proven false I found myself in quite the ethical quandary, one that I struggle with on a regular basis. However, I am also cognizant of the fact that while this war is wrong, the next one will (may) not be, and I have an obligation to my nation and my fellow citizens to be prepared to fight the next one. That's what I have fallen back on. Whether I'm right or wrong is a matter of debate. But I owe, and I'm paying my debt the best that I can. I'm paying it to my family members who went before me to fight what you might consider "real" enemies. I'm paying it to the people who cannot go. I'm even paying it so that you have the right to say that you will not go. But don't tell me that you don't owe. You owe. We all do.
Really well said. I really appreciate the job you are doing and respect your post above.

I am glad I did my service time when things felt more clear cut. I had no great quandaries and I knew that I personally would never be confronted with having to shoot someone. In this way my time in service was simple. The Cold War ended and I could know I did my very tiny part.

Jim

[Argent Towers]

Absolutely not. And I would do whatever it took to get out of the draft.

I have a good life, good friends, and family and a girlfriend who love me dearly - no way am I putting this all on the line and going to Iraq, a place where we have no reason to be in the first place. The war is sickening and disgusting to me, and I want absolutely no part in it.

If America is invaded and our volunteer army is not sufficient to defend the home front, and they're drafting people to fight here, then I would do it - this country is my home, and what kind of person wouldn't defend his own home?

[Captain_C]

May I suggest then that you do not join the Air Force. There is absolutely no way that you can avoid being made to do things if you join the military.


No, I think you misread that, or I mistyped it. I mean that if I voluntarily joined, that's one thing. I have no problem taking orders if it is my own damn fault for being there, good or bad.


But being "forced" into service to me is wrong in concept.
For a similiar example, when I lived with my parents my mother would make me clean my room. I hated doing it, because I HAD to. Now that I live on my own, it is my choice, and I keep the place spotless.


If that makes a bit more sense.

[wolf_meister]

Airman Doors
A very eloquently-stated philosophy. As I said, I'm glad you've joined this discussion.

I guess I didn't answer the OP fully. If for example, I was born a few years before 1951, then I would have been of draft age at graduation and I would have joined the military voluntarily as my older brother did. He joined the Navy in 1968 and was honorably discharged several years later. Currently he's in a VA hospital getting a hip operation. (The injury is not service-related. Sadly, everyone gets old.) Anyway, I think this illustrates the democratic system very well. To praphrase John Kennedy - my brother served his country and now his country is taking care of him.

Of course, I am answering the OP with my early 1970's mentality. Back then, I did not know about people taking the sleazy-ass way out of military service. If the draft were now active and I were of draft age, I think I'd try and figure out some sleaze-ball way out of military service. Some of our current leaders have left quite a dubious "legacy" to a new generation.

[Der Trihs]

Not a chance, for the reasons other have mentioned. At this point, after all the harm America has done, I feel no loyalty or obligation towards this country. I'm certainly not going to kill people for it; as I've said before, I'd shoot myself before fighting for America.

[jjimm]

Excellent post, Airman Doors.

[FRDE]

I am British, so maybe a draft does not apply ... but maybe it does.

I think I would go, rather on the basis that I initially supported the UK presence in Basra - to prevent things getting out of order.

My received memories from WWII are sufficient to make me believe that one needs something (or some people) to counterbalance non-pragmatic idiocy.

[TLDRIDKJKLOLFTW]

Not only would I not go to the middle east for the reasons stated above, but I think that the insult and indignity of an actual draft to try to put an end to this mess that we willfully created over there would be enough to radicalize me into joining some sort of local violent revolution against the powers that be.

[TLDRIDKJKLOLFTW]

You do owe to the nation-state. What you are, what you have become, and what you will do in the future is entirely a function of your surroundings. The mere fact that you are able to post your opinion here is proof of your debt to your nation-state: what you perceive as a privilege, maybe even a right, is nothing more than a luxury that millions cannot afford. Your nation, through its technology, economy, and innovation has made such luxuries affordable to common citizens. Contrast that with people who cannot afford to do something as simple as eat, or people who are persecuted on a regular basis for having so little as a slightly different belief.


[slight hijack]

And this is why every individual, and every corporation should pay their fair share of taxes back to this nation-state, rather than immorally dodging that responsibility through tax cuts and corporate welfare that shifts the burden onto the middle and lower classes.

[FRDE]

Not only would I not go to the middle east for the reasons stated above, but I think that the insult and indignity of an actual draft to try to put an end to this mess that we willfully created over there would be enough to radicalize me into joining some sort of local violent revolution against the powers that be.

Fragging is pretty effective

[What Exit?]

Fragging is pretty effective
?

Are you suggesting he joins the Army to shoot/kill fellow Americans that hold NCO or officer ranks?

That sounds like truly aweful advice.

Was this a non-obvious whoosh?

Jim

[chappachula]

I am cognizant that the organization I am a part of is complicit....., therefore I am complicit.

It's not just the organization you are part of, it's the country you (and I) are part of. So we are all in this together. That's the greatness of democracy. We're a nation of laws, even if we don't agree with all of them.

And thanks, Airman D , for doing what is right.

[outlierrn]

While I agree with airman doormans post in general, one of the rights of americans is to hold our leaders accountable, it is in fact our duty to question, and challenge them. having voted against the people that made the war, and having protested it before it began I feel no obligation to fight it now. An obligation to my fellow citizens, to the ideals of america, to the servicemen, yes, but not to oil profits, or republican asendancy. if american sovereignty became threatened that would be different. having said that, as an er nurse, I would probably go and ply my trade. I would have no reservations about nursing in iraq, although I might get nailed for caring for the enemy.



forgive my crummy punctuation, i've broken a rib, and economy of motion is paramount

[Steve MB]

Since your objection is mostly philosophical, I'd like to add a philosophical point of my own in response:

You do owe to the nation-state. What you are, what you have become, and what you will do in the future is entirely a function of your surroundings.

State != Society

[Czarcasm]

State != Society
And IMHO != Great Debates. Please give your answer to the question at hand and move on. If you wish to debate the morality of a draft, please start a new thread in the appropriate forum.
Thank you.

[Lumpy]

If I received a draft notice, I would find the best constitutional lawyer I could, fight being enlisted, and hopefully my case would end up before the Supreme Court, where we would finally resolve the question of "can the Federal government conduct a draft without a congressional declaration of war?"

Sez Cecil, in Is the draft forbidden by the 13th Amendment? (http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a1_140b.html)On the other hand, you could make a plausible case that the Constitution forbids Congress to send conscripts off to fight an undeclared war, or to conduct a peacetime draft. The theory here is that while Article I, Section 8 of the Constitution empowers Congress to "provide for the common defense" and "raise and support armies," the framers simply meant to establish a professional army, composed of volunteers. This is not as off the wall as it sounds. You will recall that early Americans found the British Navy's practice of forcibly inducting men into service pretty obnoxious, and it is unlikely they would turn around and authorize a draft.

The Constitution does permit the separate states (or "the several states," as we legal scholars like to put it) to organize militias for home defense (note the Second Amendment), and in the broadest sense the militia in colonial times consisted of every male 18 and over who was healthy enough to carry a gun. So (in this view, anyway), while the federal government can't draft people, the states can.

What enables the federal government to conduct the draft is clause 15 of Article I, Section 8, which permits Congress to call out the militia to "execute the laws of the Union, suppress insurrections and repel invasion." This means that Congress can send draftees off to foreign countries after a declaration of war, which has the force of law. But it doesn't include undeclared conflicts like Vietnam. And presumably it wouldn't include a peacetime draft.

A number of inductees pursued this notion during the Vietnam period, with mixed success. The government's case was shaky, but for political reasons the judiciary was reluctant to declare Uncle Sam's military adventures illegal. So the cases tended to drag out. On a number of occasions the Selective Service people found excuses to reject potential draftees when it appeared they might have a good chance of winning a court fight. There is at least one case on record of a man whom the Army honorably discharged before the end of his term, simply to avoid the possibility of an embarrassing court ruling.

At any rate, nothing was ever settled and no precedent was ever set. But the issue might come up again if a peacetime draft is ever reinstituted. We await developments.

[FRDE]

?

Are you suggesting he joins the Army to shoot/kill fellow Americans that hold NCO or officer ranks?

That sounds like truly aweful advice.

Was this a non-obvious whoosh?

Jim

1) I am saying what I would do - personally I would advize anyone with sons to ship them elsewhere.

2) Sometimes killing idiots saves lives. Not that I consider life particularly valuable, but if I found myself with a bunch of young'uns I would not find it an ethical quandary.

My views were formed by relics from 1945, I inherit their attitudes.

We have been fed a lot of propaganda.

[AtomicDog]

Only if my going would keep my son from having to go.

[Left Hand of Dorkness]

And IMHO != Great Debates. Please give your answer to the question at hand and move on.
Given this, I'll just register my agreement with Steve MB's distinction; if folks want an elaboration on that distinction (as well as on the nature of permissible repayments for a debt), they'll need to look for it elsewhere, I guess.

Daniel

[alphaboi867]

I'm 21, openly gay, suffered from epilepsy as a child, get migraines, overweight, and had my kneecap rebuilt last spring. For me to be drafted the Army would have to seriously lower it's standards. For me to even be willing to serve several conditions would need to be met; the homeland would need to be facing an actual invasion (or 2nd Civil War, but who's to say I'd side with the gov't ;) ), I would not hide my orientation or abstain from sexual activity anymore than hetersexual soldiers must, any partner I may have would need every single right and benefit given to spouses of military personal, and my freedom of speech would need to remain intact (ie I'd need to be able to publically say whatever I whatever I want about POTUS or anyone else in the chain of command with consequences no more severe than I'd get for critizing a civilian employer). If the President (or SecDef, SecState, etc) wants a photo op I'd need to have the freedom to not shake their hand and if they chose to speak to me to tell them exactly what I think about them or their policies :mad: . Oh and if I'm expected to call someone "sir" or "ma'am" on a regular basis they'd better address me as sir too.

[Elendil's Heir]

Pentagon to alphaboi867: Don't call us, we'll call you. ;)

Me to Airman Doors: Well said, and thank you for your service to our country.

[carnivorousplant]

Well, they shot Eddie Slovak. (http://www.americanheritage.com/articles/magazine/ah/1987/6/1987_6_97.shtml)

[Diogenes the Cynic]

I'm too old to get drafted but I wouldn't go anyway. I'm already in Minnesota, it would be a piece of cake to get to Canada.

I don't feel like I "owe" my country anything and even if I did, what the hell does Iraq have to do with protecting the country?

[Gala Matrix Fire]

Since the way the Bush administration is dealing with enlistment shortfalls is to force former soldiers back into the ranks, I could actually be drafted to go to Iraq. And I'd go. I think Iraq is a better option than prison. My ex has been twice so far and come back in one piece both times. He just left for his third time, this time for no less than a year. It's getting so that I am rather nonchalant about it.

[Sublight]

If Japan were invaded, I would serve to protect my new home.

America? When I left back in 1995, I planned to come back someday. The past few years, however, have made it clear that it just ain't my country anymore. A draft attempt would simply be the final good-bye note.