Why are translated movie or book titles so different?

[Spectre of Pithecanthropus]

Why is it that when translating the title of a film or book
from one language to another, the title is often radically
changed? For instance, "The Hobbit" becomes "Der kleine Hobbit" ("The Little Hobbit") in German. Why can't it
just be "Der Hobbit"? And my local museum had a German film festival a few years ago and translated the German title "Vormittagsspuke" ("Late morning ghosts") into "Ghosts Before Breakfast"!--a completely wrongheaded translation. And probably better known than either of those
is "La Cage Aux Folles" (Birds of a Feather). I'm not
sure of what the original title means, but it certainly isn't Birds of a Feather!

Anyone know about this?

[Robot Arm]

I read something interesting about this once (in "Gödel, Escher, Bach" by Douglas Hofstadter, IIRC). He used the example of "All the President's Men".

The first problem is the word "president". What if you're translating the title to a country where the head of government is the Prime Minister? Even if they have a president, his office may not be viewed quite the same way we Americans view ours.

But slightly trickier is the nursery rhyme reference. That title is a pretty direct riff on "all the King's men" in "Humpty Dumpty", with connotations of powerlessness in the face of catastrophe. Maybe the best way to translate it is to find the appropriate passage in that country's version of "Humpty Dumpty".

I was thinking about this same thing when I was in Germany a few months ago. A few theaters were showing "Any Given Sunday". I don't remember what they called it, but from what little German I know it looked like a pretty direct translation. But that title comes from a cliché that's specific to American football. I don't know if anyone there got the reference.

[KneadToKnow]

Originally posted by javaman
And probably better known than either of those is "La Cage Aux Folles" (Birds of a Feather). I'm not sure of what the original title means, but it certainly isn't Birds of a Feather!

Anyone know about this?
FWIW, "La Cage aux Folles" is "The Birdcage."

You have now exhausted my knowledge of Frogspeak.

[missbunny]

What I want to know is why movie titles in English are sometimes changed for the U.K. release, e.g., Point of No Return became The Assassin.

???

[missbunny]

Also, I know La Cage aux Folles was called The Birdcage for the American version, but that's not what it means. The French title is more equal to "The Loony Bin." I guess that wasn't a sellable title for the U.S.

[Dark Lord Davidson]

I believe the translations are skewed because there is actually no literal translation into the other language. Der Kleine Hobbit may mean "The little hobbit", but maybe "hobbit" in german means something slightly different from our understanding of the word hobbit, necessitating the addition of "little". Reminds me of the Pepsi campaign ad "Pepsi makes your past come alive" or something to that effect..in Japanese, it translated to "Pepsi brings your ancestors back from the grave". It all has to do with languages. If you said "I will eat" in spanish, it would be "Yo comeré". The english is three words, the Spanish is two. Why? It's because the "will" from the English version is included in the conjugation of the verb in Spanish. Maybe I'm talking out of my ass, but I think I'm on the right track...

Anybody else?

[Max Torque]

Just recently, while perusing my DVD of Phantasm, I came across the ads and lobby cards from the movie's Australian release, advertising the movie as The Never Dead. I'm mighty cornfoozed as to why such a sweeping name change was necessary in a country with which we share a common language.

[JSexton]

Besides the problem of translating, there is also copyright law in various nations to consider. If there is already a movie titled "Der Hobbit", you may want to change your title to stay clear, or at least avoid confusion.

Also, even in countries with a "common language", meanings and nuance vary. [extreme example]Translating "200 Cigarettes" into British English may very well give us "200 Fags", which isn't probably what is intended.[/extreme example]

[sqweels]

I believe the translations are skewed because there is actually no literal translation into the other language. Der Kleine Hobbit may mean "The little hobbit", but maybe "hobbit" in german means something slightly different from our understanding of the word hobbit, necessitating the addition of "little"

You've heard of a reality check? Well take a fantasy check, Lord Davidson. There is no such word as "hobbit", it was made up by J.R.R. Tolkien. English-speaking readers had to learn what a hobbit was without any help from adjectives in the title, so why couldn't German?

[panamajack]

The most interesting ones are those that involve a culturatl reference, or a believed connotation that whoever releases it feels like trying to change. Somebody somewhere felt that Germans wouldn't see "Hobbit" as dimunutive, or that Australians felt differently about the word "Phantasm" than Americans. Maybe Phantasm was some other movie already, or has some association that would be laughable for Australians (a brand of something or other, maybe?).

That doesn't mean I think whoever's deciding the culture of the languages and countries is doing a wonderful job.
One of my favorite films is a Japanese film by Shunji Iwai. It was shown in Montreal (I think) as either "Love Letter" or "Letters of Love". A few months later it was going by the title "When I Close My Eyes". I saw it under this title, but noticed that the print said on it, apparently right next to the Japanese title, "Love Letter". Upon seeing the film, I found the title "When I Close My Eyes" references a much less important theme of the film than does "Love Letter".

And a rather amusing one, told me by a professor who'd lived in Germany. He once passed by a movie place where "The Man Who Loved Cat Dancing" was playing (in German). Unfortunately the title had been translated something like, "Der Mann, die Katzen tanzen laessen" or something meaning "the man who liked to see cats dancing"*. He noted a lot of puzzled looks on the moviegoers' faces as they exited the theater.

panama jack

*Yes, I know this is NOT an accurate translation of what I just said in German.

[sqweels]

Rick Moranis said that when Honey, I shrunk the Kids was released in Japan, the title had to be translated as "Micro Kids" because in Japanese there is no comparable endearment for one's wife.

[rowrrbazzle]

AltaVista translations rendered "la cage aux folles" as "the cage with the insane ones."

[RealityChuck]

What I want to know is why movie titles in English are sometimes changed for the U.K. release, e.g., Point of No Return became The Assassin.

Leslie Halliwell's The Filmgoer's Companion has a great article on this subject (under "Title Changes").

Some relevant quotes (from 1970):

"There are many facets of the American way of life that British renters think their customers won't stomach. Obviously, the names of American politicians, sportsmen, and less familiar entertainers will be the first to go."

Halliwell also mentions American phrases and allusions that are incomprehensible to the British, American place names, and anything that smacks of Yankee propaganda. Names are toned down and made less lurid. Certain titles (like [i]The Petty Girl, and Hallelujah, I'm a Bum use words that are slightly risque in British slang.

Going the other way, the names are often pumped up, promising more action and sex.

[ricksummon]

Anything that "smacks of Yankee propaganda" is changed for British release, eh? Does this mean they changed "Independence Day" in the UK? If so, what did they change it to? If there's any movie that smacks of Yankee propaganda, it's that one, especially to the British!

[SpoilerVirgin]

And then there's the case of the play The Madness of George III. In England, where people are familiar with numbered kings, the title made perfect sense. But the producers of the film version were afraid that American audiences would think it was a sequel (the third of the "Madness of George" movies) and so the movie became The Madness of King George.

[lucwarm]

Speaking of "independence day," I was in Japan when
"Born on the 4th of July" came out. The Japanese title was, as I recall, a literal translation. I asked a Japanese video store clerk what was meant by "4th of July" and he had no clue. I suppose they should have picked a different title.

[even sven]

Here is a reverso-example.

The first Harry Potter book was titled "Harry Potter and the Philosopher's stone". In England that makes perfect sense, as the philosopher's stone is a well known legendary substance that turns stuff into gold (or some sort of alchemy thing like that).

Americans, haveing little history of alchemy, just wouldnt get it. They'd go "Philosopher's stone? Like Plato's rock or something?" and then not buy the book because they could care less about philosophy.

So, the American books are called "Harry Potter and the socerors stone." While the socerors stone isnt the best translation, it does give the same feeling of mystery. SO know you can see how it would be neccesary, even in places that speak the same language.

And "Harry Potter" always sounded like an artisan porn flick to me.

[PublicBlast]

Originally posted by sqweels
Rick Moranis said that when Honey, I shrunk the Kids was released in Japan, the title had to be translated as "Micro Kids" because in Japanese there is no comparable endearment for one's wife.

This is not because the Japanese are any less affectionate or "endearing" than us Westerners. Rather, in Japan, the most intimate thing you can call someone is their first (given) name, with a cutesy-suffix [-chan]. This is roughly equivalent in English to calling your wife Cathy "Cathumz" or "Cathy-poo."

In any case, the Japanese likely think that we're bizarre for referring to our loved ones as food items. (Sugar? Sugarplum? Honey?)

AkashJ
Who Loves His Honey Very Muchly

P.S. "Honey I Shrunk the Kids" or "Micro-Kids," it's still a stupid movie...

[scr4]

Why can't it just be "Der Hobbit"?

Made-up words can still be language- and culture-specific. "Hobbit" in English sounds like somethint that's small and maybe clumsy and cute, even to people who's never read Tolkien. The feel doesn't always carry over to other languages.

[hawthorne]

Originally posted by SpoilerVirgin
And then there's the case of the play The Madness of George III. In England, where people are familiar with numbered kings, the title made perfect sense. But the producers of the film version were afraid that American audiences would think it was a sequel (the third of the "Madness of George" movies) and so the movie became The Madness of King George.The same story was circulating around Australia, but I still think it's an "Americans are stupid" joke. When the British hear "King George", it could mean any of them; when the Americans hear it, it always means the one in power during their revolutionary war.

picmr

[brad_d]

I believe that Saving Private Ryan was released in Germany as Der Soldat James Ryan, which is far from a literal translation.

I suspect that the reason was something along the lines of what's been discussed, but I can't fathom exactly what it might have been. Does somebody who speaks German see what the problem might have been with a more direct translation?

[panamajack]

I think the problem with a literal translation of "Saving Private Ryan" into German is mainly that the verb forms (are those gerunds? I can't remember) like 'saving' aren't really used in German.
So you couldn't say 'Saving'. To incorporate that, you'd need a title like "Die (Er)rettung des Soldat Ryans" which would be "The Rescue of Private Ryan". While it is a better translation, it's certainly not a better title; it's a little bit clumsy, it seems, it lacks the snappiness that is often looked for in movie titles.

I think 'Der Soldat James Ryan' is a good title for the movie. It makes it clear that this particular soldier is the primary focus of the story. Using the full name also accomplishes the task of making it clear that he is an American soldier without having to say "Der amerikanische Soldat ..."

A pretty good effort, especially if you compare it some others (like the one I mentioned above).

[Sublight]

In any case, the Japanese likely think that we're bizarre for referring to our loved ones as food items. (Sugar? Sugarplum? Honey?)

Actually, AkashJ, many Japanese have adopted American terms of endearment, at least on TV. "Honey" and, more frequently, "Darling" are well understood with the same meaning as in the US. They appear a lot in commercials or in film titles, but I don't recall ever hearing someone actually say it IRL unless they were intentionally trying to overdose on 'cuteness'.

Bakc to the OP, I've seen a lot of changed titles in Japan. Some I understand, some I don't.

quoted titles are my (probably bad) translations, unquoted are written phonetically or in roman characters.

Understandable: Stripes -> Paradise Army; Raising Arizona -> "The Baby is Stolen"; Bewitched -> "Wife is a Witch"

Don't really understand: My Room -> Marvin's Room; Stepmother -> Goodnight Moon. (although there really isn't a common term in Japanese for 'step-' anything)

Really don't understand: Karate Kid -> Best Kid. Why was a Japanese term changed to an English one for the Japan release? :confused:

[brad_d]

Thanks, panamajack, that makes a lot of sense. That's really pretty slick - I hadn't thought about sticking in his first name to emphasize that he's American.

[Enderw24]

I was in Israel when Speed was released there. The title was actually pronounced "Speed" but written in Hebrew.

I know this is the exact opposite of the examples given, but if you don't like it, you can go bite the wax tadpole.

[Coldfire]

Peter Jacksons gem Brain Dead was released as Dead Alive in the US. Why?

The often discussed Dutch movie Spoorloos (literally "trackless", but actually meaning "gone without a trace") was re-filmed (and brutally raped) as The Vanishing in the US. But I do know that the original Dutch version was also brought out in the US. Is it called The Vanishing as well?

The book on which the film is based is called Het Gouden Ei ("The Golden Egg"), which was also translated into The Vanishing. Go figure.

[Spiny Norman]

- if movie A hits big-time in the US, and movie B of the same genre is less of a hit, it's a popular trick to release movie B under a name similar to movie A's, capitalizing on A's success.

Sometimes, as has been mentioned, you're stuck with an untranslatable pun or a cultural reference that just do not register. WTF is "Groundhog Day" ??

Interestingly, plenty of movies are released under their original name in Denmark - "Saving Private Ryan" and "Seven" comes to mind.

S. Norman

[Coldfire]

Well, ALL movies with English titles are released under their English name in the Netherlands. A few exceptions: kids movies like "The Beauty and the Beast" are dubbed over in Dutch, and the title is also translated. Very literaly, usually.

When I saw box office posters for Die Nakte Kanone Zwei-und-Halb in Germany a few years ago, I nearly crashed my car laughing :D

[RussellM]

Where is Encino?

I guess that's why we had California Man in the UK, instead of Encino Man

RussellM

[Tengu]

Coldie - give up non-polyglots a hand.

Is my seriously miniscule knowledge of German serving me properly when I come to the conclusion that that would be 'Naked Gun 2 1/2'?

[Coldfire]

Damn straight, Tengu ;)

Now try this: Der Postbeambte klingelt immer zwei Mahl :D

[RussellM]

According to babelfish, this should be The Postbeambte always rings to two meal, which sounds more interesting than anything postal.

I know we've done silly translation threads before, but taking this into Italian gives us Il Postbeambte squilla sempre due al pasto and then back into German gives us Squilla immer zwei Postbeambte zur Mahlzeit, which seems to suggest that the postman always comes round at dinner time.


RussellM

[Coldfire]

Hmmm... maybe "zweimahl" is written as one word ;)

I certainly don't know of any movie named At dinner time, two Postmen will arrive at your door!

[Annie-Xmas]

Hmmmm. In musical theatre, they usually leave the title alone. CATS is CATS, even if it's about KATZ, NEKO, LES CHATS, GATO, whatever. And Jesus Christ Superstar is totally untranslatable.

Phantom of the Opera was translated to Das Phantom der Oper in Germany, and Het Spook van der Oper in Holland.

I've always wondered how anyone could translate the lyrics into another language and make them fit the idea and the music for the show. Those people must make big bucks.

[CalMeacham]

Sometimes the title just doesn't translate. The James Bond movie "The Living Daylights" relies on an english saying that doesn't have a counterpart in other languages, so the foreign titles are completely different.

The French comedy that was titled "Pardon Mon Affaire" in the US had sme equally untranslatable title in France, I understand.

Forrest J. Ackerman's "Famous Monsters of Filmland" magazine (which I used to read every month as a kid) used to run articles on foreign titles all the time. You'd find the name "Frankenstein" being injected into titles that had nothing at all to do with Frankenstein, for instance.


As far as "Harry Potter and the Philospher's/Sorceror's Stone" goes, that burns me up. Heck, I knew what the Philosopher's Stone was as a kid. I seriously doubt if British kids are better educated about alchemy than American kids -- we aren't talking about real history or science here. I think they just "dumbed it down", ASSUMING that American kids wouldn't know, or might be scared off by the word "Philosopher" in the title. That's more than a little annoying. "Philosopher's Stone" has meaning and resonance beyond the book -- it was a real alchemical belief. "Sorceror's Stone" was made up for the American version. I understand that they changed the text, as well, and that really rankles. Nobody had to "translate" "The Hobbit" into American!

[Coldfire]

Originally posted by Annie-Xmas
Phantom of the Opera was translated to Das Phantom der Oper in Germany, and Het Spook van der Oper in Holland.

"Het Spook van de Opera", actually - but it does indeed mean the same.

Oh, and Annie? Thanks for leaving the enter key alone - I appreciate it :)

[AWB]

In Japan, the original Star Trek TV show was called "Sulu, Master of Navigation". :D:D

[Cartooniverse]

Originally posted by even sven
And "Harry Potter" always sounded like an artisan porn flick to me.

Just wait :D


Cartooniverse

[Keeve]

I was in Israel when "Raiders of the Lost Ark" came out.

There are two different Hebrew words, both of which translate into English as "Ark". The first is "tayvah", as in "Noah's Ark". The other is "aron", as in "Ark of the Covenant". Guess which word they used when they chose to translate the title literally: "Shovavei Tayvah Haavudah".

So I figured to myself, "Echh, another flick about people who think they found Mt. Ararat." and I passed on it. It was several years later that I discovered the error and watched the video.

Great movie, wish I had seen it in the theater!

[Cartooniverse]

100% Hijack: I was taken by my German grandmother, Nani, to see "In Search of Noah's Ark" as a child. Okay, it was decades ago. DID ANYONE FIND ANYTHING on Mt. Ararat?????

I wanna belieeeeeeeeve.

Cartooniverse

<<End of Hijack, we now return you to your previous thread, already in progress.>>

[RussellM]

Sulu, Master of Navigation


This sounds as parochial as the possibly apochrophal story published in a Dundee newspaper in 1912 -

"Dundee man drowned when Titanic sinks, some others also lost"

RussellM

[CalMeacham]

"Sulu, Master of Navigation" came from William Shatner's opening monolog when he was the guest host on Saturday Night Live.

[RussellM]

apocryphal would have been better.

RussellM

[Alessan]

Originally posted by Keeve
I was in Israel when "Raiders of the Lost Ark" came out.

There are two different Hebrew words, both of which translate into English as "Ark". The first is "tayvah", as in "Noah's Ark". The other is "aron", as in "Ark of the Covenant". Guess which word they used when they chose to translate the title literally: "Shovavei Tayvah Haavudah".


Keeve, motek, I think you meant "Shodedei". You just wrote "Rascals of the Lost Ark". ;)

Good point, though.

[Keeve]

Originally posted by Alessan
Keeve, motek, I think you meant "Shodedei". You just wrote "Rascals of the Lost Ark". ;)

Good point, though. Thanks, Alessan. My bad. L'Shana Tovah.

.... We now return you all to our regularly scheduled trivia ....

[Spectre of Pithecanthropus]

Originally posted by scr4
Why can't it just be "Der Hobbit"?

Made-up words can still be language- and culture-specific. "Hobbit" in English sounds like somethint that's small and maybe clumsy and cute, even to people who's never read Tolkien. The feel doesn't always carry over to other languages.
I agree that the word "hobbit" does somehow convey that feeling. I can (incredibly) still remember a time when I
hadn't read any of the Tolkien books but had heard the word,
and imagined a creature with endearing qualities, mostly harmless. If we analyze the word itself, I think the second syllable is reminiscent of "Rabbit", perhaps, which contributes to this. Tolkien, however, said the word
evolved from Old English (Rohirric) "holbytlan"--Hole builder. Maybe it would be better if fantasy titles were
constructed out of native elements of the target language.
In fact, the German translater of "The Hobbit" did a fine job with the names of people and places in the story. "Baggins" became "Beutlin", and "Bag End" became (I think)
"Beutelheim".

[Maxwell Edison]

Did anyone see that News Radio where Jimmy James had his book translated to Japanese and then back to English? The original title was something like "Jimmy James: Taming the Capitolist Lion" and in translation became "Jimmy James: Macho Business Donkey Wrestler."

[Johanna]

Sartre's French play Huis clos came out in two English translations. The first was "In Camera", a British translation, I think. It is the nearest approximation to the literal meaning of the French phrase. The idea is of a private meeting between people shut in a room and no one else can intrude. "In Camera" is a Latin phrase meaning 'in the chamber'.

The next translation was titled "No Exit" -- was that the dumbed-down American version? Assuming that Americans would think "In Camera" was about photography?

The Indian film titled Mirc masâlâ in Hindi was released in America as "Spices." Literally, mirc masâlâ means ground-up chili pepper. The film was not about "spices" in general, but about chili pepper specifically; the use of chili pepper in the film was important to its conclusion. They should have called it "Chili Pepper" but I guess they wanted to exploit the idea of exotic India, the land of spices.

Another Indian film, called Muhâfazah in Urdu, was released in America as "In Custody." Literally, muhâfazah means the state of being guarded -- but it implies more guarding for protection rather than imprisonment. The film, about an old poet on the decline, used the ambiguity in the term with both meanings. In translation half of that is lost.

[sidxiii]

One of the ones that always puzzled me was "The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly." In Italian, it's "Il Buono, il Brutto, il Cattivo" which is ordered differently: "The Good, the Ugly, the Bad."

Or why the wonderfully stylish and nicely titled "Dellamorte Dellamore" was changed to "Cemetary Man" for US release.

Someone mentioned Peter Jackson's excellent "Braindead" and why it was released here as "Dead Alive." I'd hazard a guess that it might be because there's a (really awful) low budget horror flick titled "Brain Dead" that came out a few years earlier.

sidxiii

"I'd rather be at home, listening to the Ramones..."

[CalMeacham]

Here's one I never understood:


Why did the Japanese "Gojira" become the American "Godzilla"? Why the change from "R" to "L"? Did the folks who bought it for American release think "Gojira" too hard to pronounce, or too Japanese, or something? Why change the "J" to "DZ"?

There's a story that somebody's Jewish grandmother came into the screening room, looked at the Man in the Rubber Suit on the scren, and said "What a Godzilla!" I think this is apocryphal. "Godzilla" doesn't seem to be yiddish slang, or anything else, for that matter.

So why did "Gojira" become "Godzilla"? I can understand "Mosura" becoming "Mothra". That makes sense. And the other Japanese monster names seem to be relatively untouched. Godzilla is the Odd Man Out.

[(Tim)]

SpoilerVirgin Wrote:
And then there's the case of the play The Madness of George III. In England, where people are familiar with numbered kings, the title made perfect sense. But the producers of the film version were afraid that American audiences would think it was a sequel (the third of the "Madness of George" movies) and so the movie became The Madness of King George.

Here is part of what snopes (http://www.snopes.com/movies/films/george.htm) has to say on the subject:
Although Nicholas Hytner, the film's director, admitted that the claim is "not totally untrue," he also divulged that the most important factor was that "it was felt necessary to get the word King into the title." The change was not primarily motivated by a perceived need to cater to Americans' alleged gullibility or ignorance, but by a prudent recognition of cultural differences between America and England. America has always been a nation without royalty, and thus using "King George" in the title established much more clearly to American audiences that this was a film about a monarch than "George III" would have.

IMO, George III is ambiguous, so I agree with this rationale. King George is also somewhat ambiguous, but...

picmr replied:
The same story was circulating around Australia, but I still think it's an "Americans are stupid" joke. When the British hear "King George", it could mean any of them; when the Americans hear it, it always means the one in power during their revolutionary war.

...it was released worldwide with the title "The Madness of King George", including releasing it with that title to the British. Either they assumed that the British would already know which King George from the play or madness reference or it's not as ambiguous as you claim.

[sailor]

Anyone who speaks two languages well knows it can be very difficult to translate at the same time the words, the meanings, the connotations etc.

A literal translation can be meaningless.

Full Metal Jacket became in Spanish "Chaqueta Metálica" which is totally devoid of any reasonable meaning. It was just the title.

Full Metal Jacket refers the some international treaty requiring war ammunition to be enclosed in a full metal jacket. Chaqueta metalica would be something like "the metal coat".

[Hello Again]

for that poster who was wondering, Encino is a city in California, that I associate with laid-back surfer & skateboarder types. I couldn't even tell you why.

[Kalahari Khala]

Why do publishers ignore the Author's title when publishing a book?

The answer: It's a power thing. All editors are frustrated writers. All publishers are frustrated editors.
They want to leave their mark on the world and see a way to do it by always leaving the title to their discretion in book contracts.

Joyce Carol Oates fusses about this title point in every interview. Her titles are always superior, and she resents the change. But she can't promote a book by herself, so she gives in. If it reaches her level, what chance does any authors have when the publisher pulls rank?

[lissener]

re: "La cage aux folles"

Isn't that a pun, in the original French, between fowls and fools? Doesn't "The Birdcage" lose the sense of that pun? Not that "Birds of a Feather" is a clear translation of the pun, but at least it's a humorous title with implications closer in tone to the actual movie, while "The Birdcage" just seems completely lifeless to me.

What about "Man Bites Dog"? The original was "C'est arrivé près de chez vous." My highschool French is almost entirely gone, but I know that doesn't refer to any kind of a dog. Altavista's translator makes it "It arrived close to on your premise"; I might have read it as something like "Close to Home" or something. Again, what's with "Man Bites Dog?"

And has anyone ever succeeded in translating "Cosi Fan Tutti"?

[don willard]

Proust's novel, A la recherche du temps perdu is translated into English as REMEMBRANCE OF THINGS PAST. I've had the thought that a more literal translation would have been better: IN SEARCH OF LOST TIME. As I read someplace, the point of the book is not just about remembering, it is a more active thing: the search for time lost would be even better. In the search a construction is going on, namely the novel itself, as we learn at the end if we didn't before. And it turns out that modern research shows when we remember we are really constructing from various traces a new composition. Now here is another question for a whole new thread relating to this present enjoyable yarnball:
why is it that when French is translated into English it is so poorly done? That is, you can ALWAYS tell, even though you had no thought that the book you are reading was originally in French. A few sentences and you look and sure enough, it's a translation. Also, there are many translations of Gogol's immortal DEAD SOULS, and some of them translate Russian words and customs of 170 years ago into supposed English equivalents, when at least half the fun of reading foreign literature is in the obscure references, including titles and strange customs that you don't understand and that give the whole flavor to the thing. When you find that out you wonder how much other damage has been done. For instance when they talk about cabbage soup in an English translation of Russian, do they really mean cabbage soup or was it something else? I believe British pudding is really some kind of a cake and not at all like Royal Pudding that we all enjoyed in our childhood: chocolate, butterscotch, etc., a form of jello I guess. But at least they leave the word pudding and you can go look it up and see what that was. In the Midwest nobody but a pretentious yuppie (or visitor from the East) would call a sweetroll a Danish. What if I wrote a book called MY FAVORITE SWEETROLL,when it came out in NY would it be translated MY FAVORITE DANISH? Suppose I wrote, THE CASE OF THE PURLOINED PAIL, would it be turned into THE CASE OF THE STOLEN BUCKET across the well-known wiggly line across the nation between those who use pail and those who use bucket?
Take a look at translations of the goddess Ishtar (Innana)
when she describes her honeymoon with Tammuz and how he "plowed" her like the ox, and the other poem where she is standing up against her huluppu tree, I think it is, and exposing her [....]. Are we to take these literally? Scholarship is so difficult!