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Skott
09-28-2000, 04:45 PM
In regards to a recent thread (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=38164) and an old column (http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a5_258.html), I thought I might bring this to your attention.

In this ABSNews.com report (http://www.abcnews.go.com/sections/world/DailyNews/italy000928.html), near the end of the article on a child pornography ring that was recently broken up and some outrages in regards to it, it gives this quote:

The [video distrubution] service was divided into several categories... The most gruesome, police said, was coded “Necros Pedo,” in which children were raped and tortured to death.

Besides the sickening aspects of these films, are they real examples of snuff films?

Montfort
09-28-2000, 07:05 PM
By definition, yes. But, I won't believe it until I see it, or, more preferrably, see the producers on trial for muder.

Derleth
09-28-2000, 10:54 PM
I doubt snuff films, as snuff films are currently defined (films focusing on a homicidal act and intended for a paying audience), exist in any quantity, here or abroad. Why? Too many people could see gain from turning in their supplier. You can get immunity from prosecution if you turn in a criminal organization and if you have enough evidence on hand to make a case on. By definition, anyone who buys snuff films would have enough evidence on hand if he just bought one tape and knew who it was connected with. Here comes a little logic: We don't see any big snuff film ring busts in the news, when busting a snuff ring would be very big news. Therefore, we can inferr that snuff film rings aren't busted often, if at all. Given my above statements on how easy they would be to break, we must expect that a rather large percentage of all existant snuff film rings will be broken. Given the very low incidence of snuff film ring busting stories in the news media, we can inferr a very low incidence of snuff film rings. As the incidence of snuff film ring busting stories in the news media approaches zero, we can inferr that the incidence of snuff film rings must similarly approach zero. So there must not be that many snuff film rings, if any at all. BTW, how reputable is ABSNews? I've never heard of it.

Skott
09-28-2000, 11:25 PM
BTW, how reputable is ABSNews? I've never heard of it.

Sorry! That was a typo. It's ABCNews, which I believe is pretty reputable.

This is the BBC version of the story (http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/europe/newsid_946000/946678.stm). However, it doesn't contain the amount of detail as the ABCNews story.

Manda JO
09-29-2000, 09:22 AM
I haven't seen the article, but I suspect that these are most likely a particularly sick varient of the psuedo-snuff films already on the market. Modern special effects technology is good enough that even a pediophile working in a garage (I am getting nauseated thnking about this) could construct a fairly believable "snuff film" without killing the kid. Hell, it would probably be easier to convince the neighborhood kids to participate in a fake death scene than in sex.

Kyberneticist
09-29-2000, 09:27 AM
Originally posted by Manda JO
I haven't seen the article, but I suspect that these are most likely a particularly sick varient of the psuedo-snuff films already on the market. Modern special effects technology is good enough that even a pediophile working in a garage (I am getting nauseated thnking about this) could construct a fairly believable "snuff film" without killing the kid. Hell, it would probably be easier to convince the neighborhood kids to participate in a fake death scene than in sex.
Hm, interesting point.
There seems to be no particular law against pseudo-snuff films. In fact, if there was no sexual abuse, that "necro pedo" section of the police seizure would be, bizaarely, completely legal and could be sold in video stores, no?

As far as I know, there's no law against child actors acting out violence and death scenes...

Manda JO
09-29-2000, 09:32 AM
These is a thread started over this at http://www.snopes.com about this as well; it is on the message bvoard under "Urban Legends." It is probably worth keeping an eye on--they have some real bulldogs over there when it comes to tracking down UL sightings.

Tezza
09-29-2000, 10:35 PM
I found an article on this at http://www.techtv.com. According to the article, eight Italian citizens were arrested for belonging to the ring, after a 19-month police investigation.

Also according to this article, the videos were sold over the internet from anywhere between $400 to $600 dollars, depending on the type of film or disc the customer wanted. The more disgusting the video, the higher the price. The article also mentions several classifications of the videos. One class was called SNIPE, which was allegedly made up of videos of children undressing in department store dressing rooms and the like. Another was supposedly termed CP by the ring, which was something like a pedophile's 'private collection.' And the type mentioned earlier, by Skott, is also mentioned. Called 'Necros Pedo', the police said that the children in the films were raped and tortured until they died.

Now, I know that the internet can be kind of...iffy...when you're looking for news, but I did find this story on a reputable site, and the story itself came from a news wire service, Reuters. So I'm willing to buy it, as disgusting as it is...Maybe the Master will have a comment on this?

Here's the story if you want to see it for yourself: http://www.techtv.com/techtvnews/internet/story/0,3685,3001942,00.html

-Tezza


(edited to fix link - if a link has punctuation in it, for example a comma, you need to include a {url} and {/url} around the link to make sure it shows up properly, where the { and } are [ and ] - read the vB code (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/index.php?action=bbcode) page for details)

[Edited by Arnold Winkelried on 10-01-2000 at 12:53 PM]

Manda JO
09-30-2000, 09:47 AM
It is a reputable source, Tezza, but the fact is that the cops themselves have just gotten thier hands on this material. I don't see how they could know yet whether or not the deaths were real. After all, they have only captured the people that sold this trash, not they people that made it.

Tezza
09-30-2000, 11:40 AM
True. If Hollywood can fake a death, why can't the pervs? But one would think that the cops should have an easier time telling the difference, or that they have more evidence to back it up. *shudder* I'm wondering if there's a follow-up story somewhere that could either confirm or debunk it.

-Tezza :D

Manda JO
09-30-2000, 01:07 PM
Barbra Mikkelson over at Snopes has spent a great deal of time researching snuff films, and she has more space to write than the master, who is limited to a column.

The link is:

http://www.snopes.com/movies/other/snuff.htm

Some psuedo-snuff films have been good enough to fool the FBI.

Manda JO
09-30-2000, 01:10 PM
Oh, I forgot to add: (Daomn, but I look like I am padding my count on this thread!) Remember that all this has come to light just in the last few days. I am sure that it will be months or years before it is known whether or not thes are "real" snuff films, and in fact we may never know for sure. I suspect this will be an issue at trial.

Skott
10-02-2000, 03:27 PM
Capturing a murder on film would be foolhardy at best. Only the most deranged would consider preserving for a jury a perfect video record of a crime he could go to the executioner for.
- from the above Snopes reference

Okay, so just a question then. Let's assume for second that what was found on the tapes was depictions of the actual rape of children. Obviously this is bad enough... but also it falls into the same line of reasoning as above. If the on film rapes are real, and the children were then found to be murdered, then wouldn't it be very probable that the deaths that appeared on film were real? Why go to all the elaborate trickery to fake a death on film, only to kill the person afterwards?

However, if the rapes were faked, then I would think that it was very probable that the deaths were faked as well.

Al Goldstein, publisher of Screw magazine, has a standing offer of $1 million for anyone who can come up with a commercially sold snuff film. That offer has been in place for years. No one has yet laid claim to it.

I would like to think that anyone who found the film wouldn't even try to claim it. You'd be just as guilty as profiting from the crime as the actual perpetrators.

Tezza
10-03-2000, 12:45 PM
Either way, these people should be punished. Yep. Even if the deaths were fake, there is still the evidence of a child porn ring, kidnappings, and all sorts of things that could have people sent to jail.

I almost wish I could see the trial. The arguments on the supposed snuff films should be interesting...

-Tezza :wally