A leading Conservative blames Liberals for 9-11 Again !

[Icerigger]

"In this book I make a claim that will seem startling at the outset. The cultural left in this country is responsible for causing 9/11. ... In faulting the cultural left, I am not making the absurd accusation that this group blew up the World Trade Center and the Pentagon. I am saying that the cultural left and its allies in Congress, the media, Hollywood, the nonprofit sector, and the universities are the primary cause of the volcano of anger toward America that is erupting from the Islamic world. The Muslims who carried out the 9/11 attacks were the product of this visceral rage--some of it based on legitimate concerns, some of it based on wrongful prejudice, but all of it fueled and encouraged by the cultural left. Thus without the cultural left, 9/11 would not have happened."

Dinesh D'souza
http://www.classicalvalues.com/archives/004439.html

also

Our values are quite similar to those of traditional Muslims. There’s no point chasing after “liberals” who believe in secularism and feminism and homosexual rights.

Dinesh D'souza

http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=ZmUzZTlmNGY3ZDM5Mjg2ZWQ3ZjVmMWVmNDhkOWU0NjU=

Is there any real difference between cultural conservatives and traditional Muslims? A leading conservative believes there is no difference at all. I tend to agree. Boy, that evil feminism sure gets around.

[Polycarp]

Am I correct in understanding this as D'sousa saying that the terrorists are striking out because the liberals had an unacceptably different cultural set, but that the conservative cultural set is not so easily distinguishable from that of the terrorists? :dubious:

That is an insult that I would never think of making against them, made by one of their own!

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

[MEBuckner]

Why does Dinesh D'Souza hate America? He hates us for our freedoms.

[Giraffe]

Honest question: is Dinesh D'Souza really a leading conservative? I've never, ever heard of him, and I pretend to be somewhat well-informed.

[Jackmannii]

He's a fairly well-known conservative author and commentator (http://www.hoover.org/bios/dsouza).

[Airman Doors, USAF]

Ditto Giraffe. Who the hell is

*looks, has no idea, copies and pastes*

Dinesh D'Souza?

[Lemur866]

I wouldn't say he's a "leading" conservative, but he's a National Review contributor who gets around on the talk shows. He's not an unknown.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinesh_D%27Souza

[Little Nemo]

It's a two-way street. The real reason Bush invaded Iraq had nothing to do with Saddam Hussein or WMD's. In fact, he was actually enraged the cultural values displayed by Baghdad's liberal elite.

[Giraffe]

Thanks, Jackmannii and Lemur866. Ignorance fought.

End hijack.

[Miller]

Ditto Giraffe. Who the hell is

*looks, has no idea, copies and pastes*

Dinesh D'Souza?

He's the guy that writes all that marching band music, right?

[Antinor01]

He's the guy that writes all that marching band music, right?

Close. This one only writes in D minor though.

[John Mace]

I wouldn't say he's a "leading" conservative, but he's a National Review contributor who gets around on the talk shows. He's not an unknown.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinesh_D%27Souza
I haven't heard from him much recently, but he was a familiar talking head 5-10 years ago on shows like The News Hour with Jim Leher. I could pick him out of a police line-up with one eye closed.

[MovieMogul]

Hmmm, let's see.

(1) They hate us because of our liberal values

(2) They hate us because of our freedom

Therefore (3) Liberal Values = Freedom.

Right?

[mhendo]

Honest question: is Dinesh D'Souza really a leading conservative? I've never, ever heard of him, and I pretend to be somewhat well-informed.
D'Souza has sort of had his day.

He is especially well-known on college campuses, as much of his writing has been about the way that liberals have allegedly run down the academy. He's opposed to things like affirmative action and other stuff that campus liberals support. He was, as a student, editor of the student paper at Dartmouth, where he gained some notoriety for his and the paper's conservative—some said race-baiting—views.

He's a fairly typical late twentieth century combination of cultural conservatism and free-market economics. He has faded from the public light a bit over the past five years or so, although this new book will probably bring him some new notoriety.

One thing i didn't know about him—and that is contained in his Wikipedia article—was that he allegedly dated Ann Coulter at one time. That should tell you all you need to know about him. :)

[Liberal]

God, what an idiot.

[mhendo]

I haven't heard from him much recently, but he was a familiar talking head 5-10 years ago on shows like The News Hour with Jim Leher. I could pick him out of a police line-up with one eye closed.Well, in a room full of Republicans, his dark skin might stand out. ;)

[duffer]

Well, I'm a conservative. I've posted here and had a few letters to the Editor published. That makes me about as much a spokesman as the quoted pundit.

What the douchebag doesn't realize is that extremist Islamists are against capitalism in many ways. When shitheels talk about "Western corruption", they aren't talking about lyrics or how someone dresses in a video or what brand of soft drink is being touted. They're talking about the freedom of a society that allows those as well as the freedom to bitch about it.

Conservatism is not a bad thing. Like liberalism isn't a bad thing. Anything can get bastardized once you start to mix power into it. It's all bullshit.

And the quoted "conservative" in the OP is in no way a leading conservative. Do your homework.

[Gadarene]

And the quoted "conservative" in the OP is in no way a leading conservative. Do your homework.

Um. If I were asked to name leading conservative thinkers of the last fifteen years or so, D'Souza would certainly be one who would spring readily to mind. His book The End of Racism has been particularly influential.

Would you say Thomas Sowell is a leading conservative? I'd roughly equate the two of them.

Do your homework.

[Mr. Moto]

Problem is, I think a point can be made about how Western decadence (caused by both libertine behavior and capitalist driven greed) can inspire grievances in the Islamic world.

Of course, you'd have a hard time seeing these points if big buckets of shit are dumped over them.

[Sublight]

Problem is, I think a point can be made about how Western decadence (caused by both libertine behavior and capitalist driven greed) can inspire grievances in the Islamic world.

Of course, you'd have a hard time seeing these points if big buckets of shit are dumped over them.
Welcome back, dude.

[BrainGlutton]

Problem is, I think a point can be made about how Western decadence (caused by both libertine behavior and capitalist driven greed) can inspire grievances in the Islamic world.

But is either "responsible for causing 9-11"?

[Steve MB]

I think a point can be made about how Western decadence (caused by both libertine behavior and capitalist driven greed) can inspire grievances in the Islamic world.
Nonsense. The pretense that such a "point" has any validity is a foolish (and, frankly racist in a soft-bigotry-of-low-expectations sense) coddling of barbarism.

The root cause of Islamofundamentalist hatred of Western civilization is simple resentment against achievement.

[olivesmarch4th]

Conservatism is not a bad thing. Like liberalism isn't a bad thing. Anything can get bastardized once you start to mix power into it. It's all bullshit.

Why yes, I do believe I like you.

[jsgoddess]

I haven't heard that name in a while. The only thing I can remember about D'Souza is that he argued that cabbies aren't racist if they won't pick up black people. But honestly, I can't even remember what his actual argument was.

[The Hamster King]

And the quoted "conservative" in the OP is in no way a leading conservative. Do your homework.From his Wikipedia page:

"One of the country's most successful conservative authors and speakers, D'Souza routinely is paid $10,000 or more for his lectures and has made millions from his books and conservative commentary."

He's not a Limbaugh or an O'Reilly but he's a well-known writer and thinker.

[Lemur866]

He made his bones back in the late 80s complaining about affirmative action and political correctness and reverse racism in academia. He's always stayed clear of Ann Coulter-level whackanoodlery, but now it looks like he's decided to up his game.

[Mr. Moto]

Nonsense. The pretense that such a "point" has any validity is a foolish (and, frankly racist in a soft-bigotry-of-low-expectations sense) coddling of barbarism.

The root cause of Islamofundamentalist hatred of Western civilization is simple resentment against achievement.

I don't think it is quite as simple as that, and I do think a cultural clash is a part of what is going on.

And no, I don't think these things are at all sufficient to cause 9/11, which is why I characterized D'souza's argument as a shitty one.

[Mr. Moto]

Welcome back, dude.

Thanks.

[duffer]

Do your homework.

Um. You're making a huge reach. D'souza, Coulter, Prager, McCain, Romney, etc. Any of those fit your narrow view of conservatives?

I guess it's as valid as saying Moore, Fraken, Clinton, Baldwin, Obama, etc are all the same shade of liberal. Which of those are the definitive progressive?


And did someone actually cite a person's own wiki page?

[Der Trihs]

Am I correct in understanding this as D'sousa saying that the terrorists are striking out because the liberals had an unacceptably different cultural set, but that the conservative cultural set is not so easily distinguishable from that of the terrorists? :dubious:Well, they aren't all that different. I do see the occasional news story about conservative groups and nations ( including America ) of different religions cooperating for such purposes as fighting abortion and homosexuality. Exchange a few words like Allah/Muhammed and God/Jesus, and what the American cultural conservatives isn't much different than what the Taliban wants.

[elucidator]

I lament the lack of free flowing communication. If only ultra-conservative Islamists and utra-conservative Christians got to know each other a bit, and then got to know me and mine, they would find that they had mutual abiding interests and a basis for unity.

[Jackmannii]

I'm not sure we can hang 9/11 on the liberal cultural elite, but I blame conservatives in power for the fact that the Iraqis can't seem to hang convicted criminals properly.

If they're not spoiling the dignity of the occasion by crudely taunting the condemned, they're screwing up the procedure - you're supposed to hang them, not decapitate (http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/01/15/iraq.executions/index.html) them.

You'd think the Neoconservative Cabal has access to plenty of classic Western movies we could send al-Maliki and his henchmen. Or we could ship over Clint Eastwood (http://images.amazon.com/images/P/6304429703.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg) in an advisory role.

Sheesh.

[Apos]

Well, I'm a conservative. I've posted here and had a few letters to the Editor published. That makes me about as much a spokesman as the quoted pundit.

All it makes you is a habitual moron. Have you authored articles at National Review? Been a much sought after speaker by conservatives around the country for decades?

And the quoted "conservative" in the OP is in no way a leading conservative. Do your homework.

Any conservative intellectual would list him as one of the top thinkers, particularly when it comes to affirmative action. Anyone that knows squat about conservatism as an intellectual movement knows that.

But you don't know squat about squat, so its par for the course. All you ever do is are ill-planned drivebys that half the time you never manage to defend.

[Gadarene]

Um. You're making a huge reach. D'souza, Coulter, Prager, McCain, Romney, etc. Any of those fit your narrow view of conservatives?

I guess it's as valid as saying Moore, Fraken, Clinton, Baldwin, Obama, etc are all the same shade of liberal. Which of those are the definitive progressive?

I never claimed he was "the definitive conservative." I disputed your claim that he wasn't "a leading conservative." You fucking moron.

[Apos]

Well, they aren't all that different. I do see the occasional news story about conservative groups and nations ( including America ) of different religions cooperating for such purposes as fighting abortion and homosexuality. Exchange a few words like Allah/Muhammed and God/Jesus, and what the American cultural conservatives isn't much different than what the Taliban wants.

Indeed. In fact, the best example is when the three major religions came together in their holiest of cities to condemn a gay pride parade and even try to intimidate it away with promises of violence. They may be mortal enemies: but at least they can still come together to hate gay people.

[mhendo]

For those following the thread right now, D'Souza is going to be on The Colbert Report in about 15 minutes.

[elucidator]

Sure hope he had a big breakfast, 'cause Colbert ate his lunch.

[Scylla]

Were pitting this?

Are we playing slow-pitch softball, today?

I understand about picking the low-hanging fruit, but D'souza, who? The stuff on the ground usually has worms.

[John Mace]

For those following the thread right now, D'Souza is going to be on The Colbert Report in about 15 minutes.
Pimping his new book, no doubt. He's kind of like Francis Fukuyama-- thinks he has some great new ideas, but really is just grandstanding. The End of History? Pffft.

[threemae]

You'd think the Neoconservative Cabal has access to plenty of classic Western movies we could send al-Maliki and his henchmen. Or we could ship over Clint Eastwood (http://images.amazon.com/images/P/6304429703.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg) in an advisory role.


It's exactly the latter sentiment that has been responsible for the more, ahem, visceral demonstrations of Iraq's inability to hang a man properly.

[Snooooopy]

Despite what D'Souza thinks, I really can't say that I'm startled in the least. When a conservative pundit thinks up another way to demonize liberals, that is not startling. It is anti-startling. It is the product of the mathematical expression (startling)(-1).

It COULD be startling, on the other hand, in that episode of the 1980s revival of The Twilight Zone starring Robert Klein where the definitions of words suddenly got all jumbled up.

[mhendo]

Were pitting this?

Are we playing slow-pitch softball, today?

I understand about picking the low-hanging fruit, but D'souza, who? The stuff on the ground usually has worms.Folks like you and duffer keep saying this, as if D'Souza is some sort of marginalized crackpot who has never been taken seriously by mainstream conservatism in the United States.

This is a guy who is currently a fellow at Stanford's Hoover Institution, who was a policy adviser in the Reagan White House, who has regularly written op-ed pieces for major conservative newspapers and journals, who has made dozens of appearances on major TV current affairs and political shows, and who has written a bunch of books, some of which (like Illiberal Education and The End of Racism) were important conservative contributions to the major cultural battles of the 1990s and early 2000s.

I tend to agree with John Mace that he doesn't really have much new to say. And, having read both Illiberal Education and The End of Racism, i think D'Souza is a writer who revels in the confrontational and the simplistically controversial, at the expense of intelligent analysis and cogent argument.

If you guys, Scylla and duffer, feel the same way about him, then i think that's great.

But you conservatives don't get to rewrite history now. You don't get to pretend that this is just some marginalized whack-job that has never enjoyed any influence in conservative circles, that D'Souza has just emerged from nowhere and that he isn't really one of you. This is a guy who has been smack in the powerful mainstream of conservative intellectual life and policy debate for the last twenty years, a guy whose work has set the tone for much public discussion of important issues in America. And, truth be told, his new book is offering arguments that plenty of conservatives agree with, and that more than a few have made since the events of 9/11.

By all means, reject him as individuals. I applaud you for it. But the conservative movement as a whole should also own him, because he's one of your bastard children.

[DoctorJ]

You know, it wasn't that long ago when the right treated any effort to understand what the terrorists were so pissed off about as tantamount to treason.

[elucidator]

Eh, I dunno. I'm lefty as all get out, but I don't feel a need to adopt a dick, just because said dick has a lefty tilt. There's a new one of these every once in a while, Bork's Slouching Towards Gomorrah is pretty hard to beat when it comes to rending one's garments and shrieking of doom and judgement.

I wonder if this might be the first one not to mention Timothy Leary?

[wolf_meister]

This D'Souza guy is recycling a 5 ½ year old "idea" espoused by Jerry Falwell on Sept 11th or 12th of 2001. Remember Falwell saying the Islamic world did this because of America's lenient attitude toward gay/lesbian issues, feminism, atheism, etc? Falwell sure back-pedalled fast on that one didn't he?

This D'Souza is a nutcase. (Or a shrewd nutcase trying to make a buck off of a tragedy). :mad:

And thanks to duffer and Mr Moto for offering the conservative view on this subject. This shows that whether your ideologies are conservative or liberal, you have to admit D'Souza is totally full of shit.

And welcome back Mr Moto.

[Icerigger]

Don't forget that Limbaugh agreed with Falwell's comments as did millions of his listeners who called the show to rally around Falwell. I am really taken aback by the all out hatred the right has for tens of millions of fellow citizens who believe themselves liberals. If you listen to talk radio, short-wave, conservative pundits, the religious right it is always the same: liberal, liberal, liberal. You may just as well substitute liberal and conservative with good and evil. I saw an outfit on line selling conservative T-shirts with a picture of Hillary Clinton and Joe Stalin on the front, or liberals equal the hammer and sickle.

D'Souza does have a point though if you take the religious leaders of the Middle East and list what they believe are any different from mainstream religious and conservative leaders in the U.S. I remember Muslim leaders and Catholics supporting each other against the women's rights conference in China some years ago.

[Steve MB]

Given that Islamofundamentalists hated 1950s American values (www.smithsonianmagazine.com/issues/2006/february/presence.php), I'm sure D'Sousa is even now working on a book documenting the evils of the Leave It To Beaver culture.

[mhendo]

Eh, I dunno. I'm lefty as all get out, but I don't feel a need to adopt a dick, just because said dick has a lefty tilt.
Absolutely. That's why i said i was happy for conservatives to disavow D'Souza's arguments.

But if said lefty had been an important figure in left circles for the past two decades, had written books that were central to much left-wing thought in America, and held prominent positions in left institutions, would you come out in wide-eyed astonishment and claim to be shocked that anyone would even think he was an important lefty?

Because that's what some of the conservatives in this thread have been doing.

[Captain Amazing]

Nonsense. The pretense that such a "point" has any validity is a foolish (and, frankly racist in a soft-bigotry-of-low-expectations sense) coddling of barbarism.

The root cause of Islamofundamentalist hatred of Western civilization is simple resentment against achievement.

I don't think that resentment against achievement is the root cause of their hatred, and I don't think that making the point that their hatred is based on our value system is a foolish collding of barbarism.

Religious fundamentalism is, to a large extent, a revolt against modernity, and the values of modernity (even though it has managed to absorb modernist values, and it's a basically modernist movement). Check out Karen Armstrong's "The Battle for God", where she discusses the evolution of fundamentalist movements in Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. Or, check out the link posted by Steve MB, discussing Qutb's images of America. So, at root, there is a clash of values.

Now, obviously, this isn't enough. There are a lot of fundamentalists out there, and most aren't violent, most aren't terrorists, and there are a lot of other factors that turns somebody from a run of the mill fundamentalist into somebody who's hijacking airplanes. But still, D'sousa has a point.

Where he goes off the rails, of course, is on the points mentioned by previous posters. Bin Laden's problem isn't only with the values of American liberals, but the values of all Americans. The us vs them isn't American liberals against American conservatives/al Qaeda. It's Americans, conservative and liberal, against al Qaeda. The things that conservatives and liberals have in common vastly outweigh what seperate us.

The second problem with D'sousa is that his solution is to let the terrorists win. That is, of course, an easy way to avoid conflict. We could have ended the Civil War if we let the South secede. We could have ended World War II if we became fascist. I'm sure that he wouldn't have said those were preferable options.

I think D'sousa's ultimate problem is that he doesn't understand al Qaeda and groups like that, and so he doesn't fully appreciate just how evil they are.

[cosmosdan]

Dinesh D'souza was on The Colbert Report this morning. It was beautiful. While Colbert pretended to be totally on his side and agree with him he went way way over the top to ridicule D'souza. The whole bit clearly said, "I think you're an idiot" while pretending to agree. Loved it.

[Count Blucher]

Hmmm, let's see.

(1) They hate us because of our liberal values

(2) They hate us because of our freedom

Therefore (3) Liberal Values = Freedom.

Right?


And, if that's right, then he's also saying

(1) Terroristic Fundimentalist Muslims ideology(approx.) = Conservative American ideology, with differences approaching zero.

leads to

(2) Conservative American Agenda = Agenda of Terrorism, at home and abroad.

leads to

(3)a {Domestically} Conservative American governmental control = Americans ruled by Terror/Fear since 2000.

(3)b {Internationally} Conservative American governmental control = Export of Terror/Fear throughout the world since 2001.

Possible examples: Iraq, Iran, the bullying of "Old Europe", withdrawl from the UN processes of conflict resolution.

[capybara]

D'Souza was big in the early 90s among a certain set-- he spoke at my college (1992? '93?), which divided the campus badly, the Young Republicans being thrilled by it and the liberal kids being irritated by it and the faculty divided and not sure what to make of it all, like what it all meant in terms of what it might communicate about the school but still in favor of open discourse. I think there was some yelling from the margins at the talk.

[NurseCarmen]

I wish I was known enough that I could take money from folks too stupid to think for themselves simply by vomiting up some controverted controversial screed. He's not writing for the thinking conservative, he's writing for the dittohead with money in his pocket. And they will stand in line bleeting for the chance to swallow it whole.

He may have been a leading commentator at one point, but I see this as the common "selling out for a paycheck since my previous fame is fading" that we've seen so many times before from all corners of our society.

[The Hamster King]

And did someone actually cite a person's own wiki page?No, I cited Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinesh_D%27Souza).

If you can't even manage to keep up with who the players are on your own side, why should we take anything you say seriously?

[Voyager]

I wish I was known enough that I could take money from folks too stupid to think for themselves simply by vomiting up some controverted controversial screed. He's not writing for the thinking conservative, he's writing for the dittohead with money in his pocket. And they will stand in line bleeting for the chance to swallow it whole.

He may have been a leading commentator at one point, but I see this as the common "selling out for a paycheck since my previous fame is fading" that we've seen so many times before from all corners of our society.
I suspect he checked his book sales figures against Coulter's, and decided how to slant his new work. Clearly whackjob books sell these days, among conservatives at least.

I do love the "no true conservative" argument we're seeing here though.

[F. U. Shakespeare]

Depending on which one's talking, the ilk of the 9/11 attackers claim to want either:

1) An Islamic theocracy stretching from SE Asia to the Iberian peninsula; or

2) A reduction/cessation in western influence in international affairs in the middle east.

If D'Sousa is right, these Islamic extremists could also have been placated if we'd simply replace Baywatch reruns and Mariah Carey videos with John Wayne movies and The 700 Club.

I doubt D'Sousa believes this. But give him a break -- he's a conservative trying to sell books in 2007.

[Guinastasia]

Dinesh D'souza was on The Colbert Report this morning. It was beautiful. While Colbert pretended to be totally on his side and agree with him he went way way over the top to ridicule D'souza. The whole bit clearly said, "I think you're an idiot" while pretending to agree. Loved it.


And from my observation, he also went way over D'Souza's head-was it just me, or was he taking Colbert seriously?

:p

[guppy]

This is what I don't get. Didn't Osama's fatwa give specific reasons for the attack (i.e. the US's support of Israel and our presence in Saudi Arabia)? Why speculate about the possible motivations of the attackers when they have already explicitly given us the reason themselves? Do they not like aspects of our culture? Of course, but that's not the reason they attacked us. I suspect he/they earnestly wants us to get out of Saudi Arabia, wants Israel to be dissolved, and could give two flying fucks about Paris Hilton.

[Guinastasia]

This is what I don't get. Didn't Osama's fatwa give specific reasons for the attack (i.e. the US's support of Israel and our presence in Saudi Arabia)? Why speculate about the possible motivations of the attackers when they have already explicitly given us the reason themselves? Do they not like aspects of our culture? Of course, but that's not the reason they attacked us. I suspect he/they earnestly wants us to get out of Saudi Arabia, wants Israel to be dissolved, and could give two flying fucks about Paris Hilton.

Because then we'd have to start examining the repercussions of our foreign policy, and what effects that it has had on the world. And we don't want to do THAT!

[The Hamster King]

This is what I don't get. Didn't Osama's fatwa give specific reasons for the attack (i.e. the US's support of Israel and our presence in Saudi Arabia)? Why speculate about the possible motivations of the attackers when they have already explicitly given us the reason themselves? Do they not like aspects of our culture? Of course, but that's not the reason they attacked us. I suspect he/they earnestly wants us to get out of Saudi Arabia, wants Israel to be dissolved, and could give two flying fucks about Paris Hilton."If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle." -- Sun Tzu

The willful ignorance of our leaders about the motivations and goals of our enemies is dooming us to defeat.

They talk as though "understanding the terrorists" is a sign of weakness. They act as though it is enough to strike with overwhelming vigor, without first discussing why.

It's a stupid way to fight a war.

[rjung]

And from my observation, he also went way over D'Souza's head-was it just me, or was he taking Colbert seriously?
I think the title of his tome is evidence enough that the guy is a few McNuggets short of a Happy Meal. ;)

[Little Nemo]

So D'Souza's argument is basically, "It's your own fault if your freedom loving ways provoke religious bigots like Osama and me to violence."

Maybe his next book should be titled If I Had Bombed the World Trade Center...

[Guinastasia]

Well, well, well-guess who made Keith Olbermann's "Worst Person in the World" tonight?

:p