Crop Circles

[don willard]

I was just starting not to believe in Crop Circles anymore when I saw a program on tv about them. How could they be the hoaxes I was thinking they were when so many of them are still being made around the world? Doesn't it strain credulity to believe that they are all hoaxes? However, it also strains credulity to think that the more ornate ones aren't hoaxes. At any rate, the program pointed out that certain mathematical ideas that were not found in any mathematics books (how would they know that, though?) have been found by mathematicians from the geometry of these circular patterns. Also the program said that the circles respond to speculation about them, for instance when people said they were made by balloons a crop circle appeared under power lines, and there were other such examples. I think we'll never know, because the human race has been visited since the beginning by something or someones who always conveniently disappear as soon as seen, like fairies and elves in the past and space aliens now (idea of Jacques Vallee and others that past and present uncanny appearances are deliberately staged for unknown reasons by probably not extraterrestrials but others who have no intention of being actually caught and examined). Also, if the crop circles are supposed to be human hoaxes and not just alien hoaxes, then why do we only hear of those two English barflies (so-called on the tv program) as hoaxers and why aren't more being caught in the act? In fact one crop circle at least, was made when everybody WAS watching over by the Silbury Hill I think it was, but they didn't see it form and monitors detected nothing. There it was in the morning.
As with the UFOs and the ghost appearances from the spirit world and mediumistic communications, the entries and the books always read, "Much research remains to be done."
They said that 150 years ago and before that....

[(Tim)]

This probably belongs in a different forum. Great Debates, perhaps?

Cecil (http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a3_075.html) has covered this. It's plausable that they are all fake, and given the lack of actual evidence to the contrary, that's the reasonable conclusion to draw.

[lissener]

A friend of mine who's into this kind of thing told me that the guys who started the hoax have since admitted the whole thing.

I don't have a cite, but maybe someone else does . . .

[glee]

don willard,

there are several reasons why I believe crop circles are just hoaxes. Here's the best:

Alien lifeforms from another planet (or more likely, another galaxy!) travel through space, using advanced technology, to interact with a carbon-based species. They decide to communicate with us ... BY SQUASHING CORN. :rolleyes:

[don willard]

I said I DIDN'T think they were from outer space. And I still don't believe that all the hundreds of these ALL OVER THE WORLD could possibly be hoaxes! What would be the motivation to hoax this and not something else? Ie., we don't have hundreds of examples of Faces on Mars somehow appearing on earth, for instance. I know there are hoaxes of UFO's, but why haven't more Scottish and other lakes turned up with dinosaurs in them? If people are going to go to the trouble to hoax SO MANY crop circles, then why not water dragons and Faces or ghost hoaxes? The only other thing as ubiquitous as the crop circle phenomenon is the morbid interest in devils on television shows, which we know to be fictions. Why must everything be either TRUE or FALSE?
And a whole new thread: why are those who want to disprove everything even more rabid than those who believe in preposterous things? Like I think he is called the Great Randi? And whole Skeptics organizations! Why does it matter so much to them that people believe in ball lightning, UFO's, and phantasms?

[darkcool]

I have seen two different programs on the hoax angle.
The highlights:
'Believers' say it would take too long to hoax them. The two guys who thought the whole idea up constructed a fairly elaborate one, on camera, in a few hours.
"yeah?", say the naysayers, them how do they get those "perfectly" straight lines?" Again the hoaxer pulled out their secret weapon, a baseball hat with a bent bubble-wand taped to it. It was used much like a site on a gun. Put on the hat,look through the wire hoop, train it on a distant farmhouse and walked towards it.
The strangely bent stalks at the epicenter? After the hoaxsters made a crop circle, they examined the center - it just happens.
And on and on. It was a cool mystery for a while, but face it- IT"S OVER!
The thing I could never figure out, Don, and maybe you can help me out with this, is how in the HELL did crop circles ever become associated with UFO's?

[omni-not]

don't know if you're aware of this site. Given your interest in the subject matter, you might find it to be a useful source of complementary information.

http://www.circlemakers.org

[glee]

don willard

You posted 'That's not what I said..I said I DIDN'T think they were from outer space.'

Well, your earlier post said 'Doesn't it strain credulity to believe that they are all hoaxes?...I think we'll never know, because the human race has been visited since the beginning by something or someone....Also, if the crop circles are supposed to be human hoaxes and not just alien hoaxes...'

I find your posts a bit breathless (paragraph! paragraph!), so maybe I misunderstood you...

You said 'And I still don't believe that all the hundreds of these ALL OVER THE WORLD could possibly be hoaxes! What would be the motivation to hoax this and not something else?'

Perhaps because crop circles are pretty easy to do...

You said '...I know there are hoaxes of UFO's, but why haven't more Scottish and other lakes turned up with dinosaurs in them?'

Sorry, I don't follow you. Anyone can make a crop circle. The Loch Ness monster is just a rumour (like Roswell). Loch Ness attracts thousands of visitors every year, all SPENDING MONEY, simply because some local claimed to have seen a monster (and there are some out-of focus pictures of logs/otters/weeds).

You said 'Why must everything be either TRUE or FALSE?'

I think you mean proven. Sure, I can't PROVE the Loch Ness monster doesn't exist (unless I drain the lake :) ), but there's no evidence for it.

You said 'And a whole new thread: why are those who want to disprove everything even more rabid than those who believe in preposterous things? Like I think he is called the Great Randi? And whole Skeptics organizations! Why does it matter so much to them that people believe in ball lightning, UFO's, and phantasms?'

No, this is the same thread. OK, I'm a sceptic ( :eek: ). Now this doesn't mean I go around saying 'I don't believe in anything - and you shouldn't either'. For example, I believe in aliens :cool: . But it's a logical belief. Here we go:

Astronomers tell me there are billions of stars.
Many stars have planets.
Life exists on one planet.
Therefore, MATHEMATICALLY, it is likely that there is life elsewhere in the Universe.
(I don't know how close they are, or what they look like, of course).

Now that's as far as I can go on aliens, because we haven't invented inter-stellar travel yet. If we had, there'd be more evidence for me to look at. And that's what us sceptics want - EVIDENCE.
The Great Randi offers a prize of $1,000,000 for anyone who can prove psychic abilities (e.g. dowsing). Now lots of people claim they can detect water by dowsing. The trouble is, when you ask them to do it, they fail. They can't produce any evidence that dowsing exists.
Similarly there is no physical evidence for UFO's. (I've just finished watching a TV program on this. One guy produced a video showing a mysterious light in the sky. They took the film to a scientist. He said 'this has been filmed off a TV screen. It could have been faked.' 'Oh, yes' replied the UFO guy. 'Now I remember - this is a copy of the original. But, I assure you, it's not a fake.'
Duh! Why didn't he bring the original? :rolleyes: )

And it matters to us sceptics because

- we fight ignorance
- unscrupulous people make money out of such trickery

[omni-not]

you forgot

:D

[glee]

omni-not,

:confused:

[tomndebb]

And I still don't believe that all the hundreds of these ALL OVER THE WORLD could possibly be hoaxes! What would be the motivation to hoax this and not something else?

Because they're easy to do and there are grain crops and grass fields all over the world?

There's only one "face" on Mars because the hill region where it was spotted has only one rock formation that looks vaguely like a face when sunlit from a specific direction. Since there is no one on Mars, no one is building more of them. Since it takes rather more labor to pile rocks than to walk through a field carrying a board--and more skill to sculpt or build with rock than to walk following a string--there are no "faces" appearing on Earth.

There are not more "lakes turned up with dinosaurs in them," because only Loch Ness happened to have a legend going back far enough for recent hoaxers to build on. (Lake Champlain has tried to garner a monster, but nobody takes it seriously.) Besides, Nessie, Sasquatch, Yeti, and such critters can only be described by the people who never seem to have a camera handy. If someone flattens out a crop circle, the local media (at least) and possibly the national or international TV cameras will show up to photograph it if its a slow news day. There is no point in calling a press conference for having seen Nessie, because most news hucksters will simply yawn and tell you to take it to the tabloids.

And since the circles sit there for several days or weeks to be photographed, it provides lots of time for the true believers to come out and admire the effort. Even the true believers don't have the resources (or the vacation time) to come together the day that sasquatch is spotted to do a thorough analysis.

Poltergeist hunters have a difficulty in that only their "special equipment" can "record" the events--leading to speculation that the equipment produces a record of an event that never occurred.

In short, there are many reasons for hoaxers to concentrate on circles:
- ready materials
- ease of construction
- ease of location (any field will do; you're not tied to showing up at this lake or haunted house or this date)
- a finished product that can be seen and photographed with "standard" equipment
- a finished product that can be admired and broadcast to the world
- a product that will last long enough to garner attention, even if it first appears on a very "newsy" day, it will still be there when the news slows down.

I can't think of any other kind of hoax that has even two of those features going for it.

[omni-not]

;)

[Edward The Head]

They had the guys who did this on TV about a year ago. They even showed how they did it, they drew up plans then went out and did it in a couple of hours. They where also telling how many they had done and that they had gone to other countries to do them as well. pretty intersting.

[glee]

omni-not

:p

[wevets]

Since part of Mr. Willard's arguement is that there are too many crop circles and they're showing up on too many continents to be done by hoaxers, it seems relevant to ask:

How many crop circles are there?

I really don't hear about that many, not that I follow this sort of thing anyway.

How wide-ranging are these crop circles?

I've heard of crop circles from England, but I haven't really heard where others can be found. Are they found in North America? South America? Australia? Africa?

If they're found in places where the local media can attract attention and tourists, maybe tomndebb and glee, who seem to have a very reasonable explanation for the phenomenon, have it right.

[jamesglewisf]

Hoax. And a pretty funny one too.

[Wonko The Sane]

Originally posted by glee
don willard,

there are several reasons why I believe crop circles are just hoaxes. Here's the best:

Alien lifeforms from another planet (or more likely, another galaxy!) travel through space, using advanced technology, to interact with a carbon-based species. They decide to communicate with us ... BY SQUASHING CORN. :rolleyes:

I have another reason why I think they are hoaxes (hoaxi?).

Me and two buddies made one a few years ago.
Not too difficult, just strenuous.

[Tigress]

LOL! glee and omni-not, I actually laughed out loud at the little faces you're making to each other. You're having so much fun in this thread.

[Equipoise]

Originally posted by don willard
...How could they be the hoaxes I was thinking they were when so many of them are still being made around the world?

My guess is it's because there are more people making them, now that so many more people know how easy they are to create. (Well, easy in that all you do is stomp around with a board, however, it takes a true artist to realize some of these awe-inspiring designs).


Doesn't it strain credulity to believe that they are all hoaxes? However, it also strains credulity to think that the more ornate ones aren't hoaxes.

These things are works of art, made by HUMAN artists. People can believe what they want (I'm not even going to bother with your belief in alien visitations) but what really depresses me about crop circles being attributed to aliens is that it completely disregards the wonderful human ingenuity and creativity (not to mention, hard work) involved.

I second the suggestion that anyone interested in crop circles should look at this web site by a group of people who make some of the more elaborate crop circles. They were the subject of the show in America on NBC that I unfortunately missed. Most of the good photos and explanations are in the section Exhibit A. They even have a very funny beginner's guide to making crop circles, although I really think they're joking about the dowsing rods :):

http://www.circlemakers.org/

This next link is to a site that believes in the alien hokum, but to give them credit they do have a section on what they call "Hoaxers" (that is, the people who actually make the crop circles). What's really good about the site is they have a wealth of aerial photos of elaborate crop circles. Click into the "Reports Online" section for some links to the amazing photos.

http://www.thenoiseroom.com/frameset.htm


Also the program said that the circles respond to speculation about them, for instance when people said they were made by balloons a crop circle appeared under power lines, and there were other such examples.

Isn't it more reasonable to assume that the circlemakers were watching the TV reports or reading the local newspapers, and shifted their style in response?

I equate the art of crop circles with the arts of sculpted butter, sand paintings and ice sculptures. They are all temporary works of art that are made for the pure joy of making art. The only major difference is that the others have never been attributed to UFOs. :rolleyes:

(Yes, the circlemakers have a sense of humor about it all...I think they love to tweak the noses of "croppies" who really want to believe that these are made by aliens)

[fortiter]

True believers can make up answers faster than sceptics can formulate questions. Their ultimate response is often, "You're quoting me out of context."

[glee]

Tigress,

Aww, shucks - we were only playing! :o

[Ranma]

And a whole new thread: why are those who want to disprove everything even more rabid than those who believe in preposterous things? Like I think he is called the Great Randi? And whole Skeptics organizations! Why does it matter so much to them that people believe in ball lightning, UFO's, and phantasms?

Ball lightning is a proven phenomenon that has been replicated in laboratories, by having a huge current strike the surface of a plane of water. Another way to recreate the phenomenon is to burn a candle(or some other carbon based combustible) in a microwave(p.s. Do not try this at home) and bombard it with microwave radiation. Either way, it creates a swirling, glowing mass of plasma that floats around for a while. We call this kind of phenomenon ball lightning, because it is created naturally by lightning strikes.

[Sequent]

Beinga crackpot, as yosemitebabe would say, who loves to believe in this stuff, I've looked very closely at the crop-circle phenomenon over the years with a very open mind. I think the evidence bears out the idea that the vast, vast majority of them are man-made.

Mainly, what you have to do is look at the things:

1. They've only been around for twenty years in significant numbers, and the phenomenon has grown in direct proportion to public interest.
2. They've been thematically similar as time goes on (ie, the circle of ten years ago were much different and more like eachother than circles are today).
3. They only come out at night.
4. They're mainly a local affair (England), though they have been spotted all over the world (people catching on).
5. They've gotten much, much better. Today's circles are dazzling geometric shapes and motifs; they're a sight to behold. Seems like if some natural phenomenon or alien intelligence were creating these things, they'd be just as good in design ten years ago as they are today. This is just not true: anybody remeber the Led Zeppelin box set? Those circles are pretty lame by today's standards.
5. They are always made of the same components: circles and lines. There aren't many crop circle desgins that couldn't be described on paper by using a pencil and a string; similarly, the circle makers typically use only a board and some rope. And you only see designs based on circles with straight lines: you won't find The Last Supper in any field.

Still, they're amazing. It really is an incredibe phenomenon. I suspect reports that it is hard to make a circle at night in England are exaggerated, as are reports that fields were watched and nothing was seen, except in some cases "balls of light." I've read the reports at cropcircleconnector and Linda Howe's reports: it's still too hard to believe 99% of them aren't manmade. But, even the circle makers report some very strange occurences in the fields at night.

[GuanoLad]

I read that the really elaborate ones were deliberately done so that people would *have* to realise they were fake. But instead the fervour heightened as they postulated on the level of complexity of these 'messages'.

You'd think aliens could learn an Earth Language somehow, or at least actually sow up in person instead of being so circumspect. *sigh*

[Danielinthewolvesden]

There is no doubt that the complex ones are fake. They have only appeared as the publicity increased, and the original hoaxers have come forth.

Now, for may years before that, there have been small 'crop circles", however, these are simple circles, and usually small. They likely have a natural explanation. Dust devils, for instance.

[omni-not]

Here's one just for you (one of my favourites, actually)

;j

[glee]

omni-not,

what are you up to ? :(

[glee]

Sequent,

You posted 'Being a crackpot, as yosemitebabe would say, who loves to believe in this stuff, I've looked very closely at the crop-circle phenomenon over the years with a very open mind.'

If you love to believe in it, perhaps you haven't got an open mind. ;)

and further 'I think the evidence bears out the idea that the vast, vast majority of them are man-made.'

No, the evidence is that they're ALL man-made.
Sorry!

[omni-not]

We'll have to put an end to this: we're beginning to...run around in circles!

:wally

[glee]

omni-not,

:wally ... SNAP!

[Wrath]

Perfectly put , Sequent!!

I can't believe reasonable people could be so gullible.

The perfect test for any outrageous claim is to apply "Occam's Razor": The simplest and most reasonable explanation (that can address each issue) is usually the correct one.

Simplest: kids go into a field at night, when no one is looking, with some string and a board. They walk between the rows, and only flatten the crops necessary to produce the design (ever more complex for, boredom? notoriety?).

Pranks have existed since kids have existed.

[Perderabo]

Wrath said:
I can't believe reasonable people could be so gullible.

This is why crop circles serve a very useful purpose. They show exactly how gullible folks can be.

[Sequent]

Originally posted by glee
No, the evidence is that they're ALL man-made.
Sorry!

I disagree. I think the natural phenomena explanation holds some weight, too. There are less regular formations that people photgraph all the time that clearly seem nature-made to me. For instance: a wind vortex or mini-cyclone could easily make a plain circle formation. This has been demonstrated (but don't ask me for a cite) in the effort to debunk circles. Both circle believers and circle makers (don't take my word for it--they talk about it on their site--and they're the ones out in the fields making circles every night, not you and me) both report witnessing something that sounds very much like ball lightning, which has also been demonstrated in a labratory (I could find a cite for this, but I'm lazy). Personally, I think it's more likely than not that at least a very small percentage of circles appear via non-human means. "All" is a big word, glee--no fudge room. Even if just one circle out of thousands was made by a vortex, your assertion would be, well, incorrect. Sorry!

More clearly, I would say the overwhelming majority (let's say 99%) are man-made, or at least that's what the clear evidence points to. I could also say that there is no evidence they are caused by an "extra-human" intelligence. So many mysteries in the world, this doesn't really even qualify.

And yes, I love to believe in crackpot stuff. It's a rough time to be a crackpot, though: there's a decided lack of evidence. And people are coming up with new explanations all the time, always talking about something they call "science." It's the crackpot's worst enemy, I tell you...it'll be the end of us!