Just got in an email fight with my mom

[LorieSmurf]

My mom has this email list which I unfortunately am on. Most of the stuff she sends is Christian happy glurgey stuff, or ProBush antiMuslim stuff. Well about an hour ago was the last fucking straw. My heart is still pounding because I haven't argued with mom like this since I was a teenager. But this time I know I'm right and it truly truly angers, and saddens me at the same time, that she would send garbage like this:

~~~~~

Islam--from someone who lived there


After living in Saudi Arabia for almost four years and having learned all of this. It scares me deeply that almost all of our countrymen have no idea of what Islam means to those who follow it. So please read this and learn more so that you will know how it will affect your loved ones in the future if they grow in power around the world.

I was thinking about the Congressman in Minnesota who wants to put his hand on the Koran during his swearing in - and we think things are bad now.


Can a good Muslim be a good American?

Doc, sent this to me......he sent that question to a friend who worked in Saudi Arabia for 20 years. The following is his reply:

Theologically - no. Because his allegiance is to Allah, the moon god of Arabia.
Religiously - no. Because no other religion is accepted by his Allah except Islam (Quran, 2:256)
Scripturally - no. Because his allegiance is to the five pillars of Islam and the Quran (Koran).
Geographically - no. Because his allegiance is to Mecca, to which he turns in prayer five times a day.
Socially - no. Because his allegiance to Islam forbids him to make friends with Christians or Jews.
Politically - no. Because he must submit to the mullah (spiritual leaders), who teach annihilation of Israel and Destruction of America, the great Satan.
Domestically - no. Because he is instructed to marry four women and beat and scourge his wife when she disobeys him (Quran 4:34).
Intellectually - no. Because he cannot accept the American Constitution since it is based on Biblical principles and he believes the Bible to be corrupt.
Philosophically - no. Because Islam, Muhammad, and the Quran do not allow freedom of religion and expression.
Democracy and Islam cannot co-exist. Every Muslim government is either dictatorial or autocratic.
Spiritually - no. Because when we declare "one nation under God," the Christian's God is loving and kind, while Allah is NEVER referred to as heavenly father, nor is he ever called love in the Quran's 99 excellent names.


Therefore after much study and deliberation.... perhaps we should be very suspicious of ALL MUSLIMS in this country. They obviously cannot be both "good" Muslims and good Americans.


Call it what you wish.... it's still the truth.

If you find yourself intellectually in agreement with the above statements, perhaps you will share this with your friends. The more who understand this, the better it will be for our country and our future.


The religious war is bigger than we know or understand.

~~~~~~~~~~

I usually delete her stuff. But I could not keep my mouth shut about this. To me this smacks of Japanese internment and Jewish Holocaust. I replied and I told her so. She sent me a fuming email right back that said she was sick and tired of my crap, and my flippant attitude (flippant? I assure you it's anything but flippant), and how i jump down her throat everytime my opinion differs from hers. The email went on and on like that.

I don't jump down her throat. Like i said, we haven't argued like that in about 18 years. Sure, we have discussions in which our opinions differ, but I don't "jump down her throat". We always just agree to disagree and go on.

But I just CANNOT sit idly by while she spews this crap. I can't.

So I replied back to this to take me off her list and don't talk to me for awhile. Because if I know if I talked to her I'd either scream at her or cry. And I don't want to do that to my mom. I blocked her email. Maybe I shouldn't but I want her to cool off before she writes me another awful message.

[Ice Wolf]

I think it's probably a good idea that your mother doesn't send that kind of stuff on to you ever again, LorieSmurf. When you've had a chance to cool off and be somewhat less upset over this than you are now, contact her and talk it over. But -- no. Don't have yourself included on chain email stuff like that.

That thing is ugly. :(

[Captain_C]

Don't take this the wrong way, but people like your mother make me think I'll have to eventually move to Canada.

[seenidog]

I hate that too, getting hate mail forwarded. Only way to stop it is to block it out, or asking mom " Have you ever been to Saudi Arabia? Iran? Syria?" I for one have not. I am old enough that the friends of my sons have been, I trust their accounts. This "I got it in the email so it must be true " Is just idiocy. Tell her so. The ability to click and point idiocy and hatred is the bane of the internet. Ask her to come up with one , even one verifiable fact of the refuse she shovels on.

[duality72]

I feel your pain (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=291656), LorieSmurf. It sounds like your mom may have had some resentment that's been building up, as well. Sorry for the pain this is causing you, but I congratulate you on taking on a stand (that message is some seriously idiotic tripe).

[Kalhoun]

My mom has this email list which I unfortunately am on. Most of the stuff she sends is Christian happy glurgey stuff, or ProBush antiMuslim stuff. Well about an hour ago was the last fucking straw. My heart is still pounding because I haven't argued with mom like this since I was a teenager. But this time I know I'm right and it truly truly angers, and saddens me at the same time, that she would send garbage like this:

~~~~~

Islam--from someone who lived there


After living in Saudi Arabia for almost four years and having learned all of this. It scares me deeply that almost all of our countrymen have no idea of what Islam means to those who follow it. So please read this and learn more so that you will know how it will affect your loved ones in the future if they grow in power around the world.

I was thinking about the Congressman in Minnesota who wants to put his hand on the Koran during his swearing in - and we think things are bad now.


Can a good Muslim be a good American?

Doc, sent this to me......he sent that question to a friend who worked in Saudi Arabia for 20 years. The following is his reply:

Theologically - no. Because his allegiance is to Allah, the moon god of Arabia.
Religiously - no. Because no other religion is accepted by his Allah except Islam (Quran, 2:256)
Scripturally - no. Because his allegiance is to the five pillars of Islam and the Quran (Koran).
Geographically - no. Because his allegiance is to Mecca, to which he turns in prayer five times a day.
Socially - no. Because his allegiance to Islam forbids him to make friends with Christians or Jews.
Politically - no. Because he must submit to the mullah (spiritual leaders), who teach annihilation of Israel and Destruction of America, the great Satan.
Domestically - no. Because he is instructed to marry four women and beat and scourge his wife when she disobeys him (Quran 4:34).
Intellectually - no. Because he cannot accept the American Constitution since it is based on Biblical principles and he believes the Bible to be corrupt.
Philosophically - no. Because Islam, Muhammad, and the Quran do not allow freedom of religion and expression.
Democracy and Islam cannot co-exist. Every Muslim government is either dictatorial or autocratic.
Spiritually - no. Because when we declare "one nation under God," the Christian's God is loving and kind, while Allah is NEVER referred to as heavenly father, nor is he ever called love in the Quran's 99 excellent names.


Therefore after much study and deliberation.... perhaps we should be very suspicious of ALL MUSLIMS in this country. They obviously cannot be both "good" Muslims and good Americans.


Call it what you wish.... it's still the truth.

If you find yourself intellectually in agreement with the above statements, perhaps you will share this with your friends. The more who understand this, the better it will be for our country and our future.


The religious war is bigger than we know or understand.

~~~~~~~~~~

I usually delete her stuff. But I could not keep my mouth shut about this. To me this smacks of Japanese internment and Jewish Holocaust. I replied and I told her so. She sent me a fuming email right back that said she was sick and tired of my crap, and my flippant attitude (flippant? I assure you it's anything but flippant), and how i jump down her throat everytime my opinion differs from hers. The email went on and on like that.

I don't jump down her throat. Like i said, we haven't argued like that in about 18 years. Sure, we have discussions in which our opinions differ, but I don't "jump down her throat". We always just agree to disagree and go on.

But I just CANNOT sit idly by while she spews this crap. I can't.

So I replied back to this to take me off her list and don't talk to me for awhile. Because if I know if I talked to her I'd either scream at her or cry. And I don't want to do that to my mom. I blocked her email. Maybe I shouldn't but I want her to cool off before she writes me another awful message.
I had this very argument with my BIL this week. We're not speaking.

Sorry for your troubles. We can only hope that they come to their senses about these things, but somehow it always feels like we're beating a dead horse. No advice. Just stick to your guns.

[BobLibDem]

Anti-Muslim bigoted glurge is everywhere. My half-witted brother in law sent this gem:

The lady who wrote this letter is Pam Foster, of Pamela Foster and Associates, in Atlanta. She's been in business since 1980, doing interior design and home planning. She recently wrote a letter to a family member serving in Iraq. Read it!

"Are we fighting a war on terror or aren't we? Was it or was it not started by Islamic people who brought it to our shores on September 11, 2001?


Were people from all over the world, mostly Americans, not brutally murdered that day, in downtown Manhattan, across the Potomac from our nation's capitol and in a field in Pennsylvania ?

Did nearly three thousand men, women and children die a horrible, burning or crushing death that day, or didn't they?

And I'm supposed to care that a copy of the Koran was "desecrated" when an overworked American soldier kicked it or got it wet?

Well, I don't. I don't care at all.

I'll start caring when Osama bin Laden turns himself in and repents for incinerating all those innocent people on 9/11.

I'll care about the Koran when the fanatics in the Middle East start caring about the Holy Bible, the mere possession of which is a crime in Saudi Arabia.

I'll care when Abu Musab al-Zarqawi tells the world he is sorry for hacking off Nick Berg's head while Berg screamed through his gurgling slashed throat.

I'll care when the cowardly so-called "insurgents" in Iraq come out and fight like men instead of disrespecting their own religion by hiding in mosques.

'll care when the mindless zealots who blow themselves up in search of nirvana care about the innocent children within range of their suicide bombs.

I'll care when the American media stops pretending that their First Amendment liberties are somehow derived from international law instead of the United States Constitution's Bill of Rights.

In the meantime, when I hear a story about a brave marine roughing up an Iraqi terrorist to obtain information, know this: I don't care.

When I see a fuzzy photo of a pile of naked Iraqi prisoners who have been humiliated in what amounts to a college-hazing incident, rest assured that I don't care.

When I see a wounded terrorist get shot in the head when he is told not to move because he might be booby-trapped, you can take it to the bank that I don't care.

When I hear that a prisoner, who was issued a Koran and a prayer mat, and fed "special" food that is paid for by my tax dollars, is complaining that his holy book is being "mishandled," you can absolutely believe in your heart of hearts that I don't care.

And oh, by the way, I've noticed that sometimes it's spelled "Koran" and other times "Quran." Well, Jimmy Crack Corn and, you guessed it, I don't care!

If you agree with this viewpoint, pass this on to all your E-mail friends. Sooner or later, it'll get to the people responsible for this ridiculous behavior!

If you don't agree, then by all means hit the delete button. Should you choose the latter, then please don't complain when more atrocities committed by radical Muslims happen here in our great Country.

So what do you do? Start a family fight? Let it pass? If a response would actually do any good, I'd say make a response. But if it would do nothing except make people angry, why bother?

[Kalhoun]

So what do you do? Start a family fight? Let it pass? If a response would actually do any good, I'd say make a response. But if it would do nothing except make people angry, why bother?
It depends on the family member and how much trouble it would cause me in other aspects of familial harmony.

With my BIL, my husband thinks he's kind of a jerk anyway. My SIL would rather keep harmony at this point, so she doesn't take me to task on it.

Would I have this battle with my MIL? Prolly not. I'd make a single comment regarding my feelings and I'd drop it.

[jsgoddess]

So what do you do? Start a family fight? Let it pass? If a response would actually do any good, I'd say make a response. But if it would do nothing except make people angry, why bother?

I've found that making them angry can sometimes work.

I've tended to be one of the people who would start a fight over this. As I've gotten older, people say this shit to me less and less. I don't know if it's because they just aren't saying it to me, or if they aren't saying it at all, but either way, I win.

[Frostillicus]

Ask your mom how many Muslims she has actually met in her life.

[kambuckta]

While I can sympathise with the OP, and my own knee-jerk reaction is to damn critics of Islam as ignorant and bigotted, I watched an interesting interview just the other night with Ayaan Hirsi Ali (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayaan_Hirsi_Ali).

She grew up in a devout Muslim family but has since shunned Islam, and is now an atheist activist. She also claims that one cannot be a 'good' (as in fully-observant) Muslim and a citizen of a western democracy for the very reasons that were elucidated in the OP.

Just as an interesting hypothetical, what would all of the thread-participants responses have been if it had been Hirsi Ali writing that email to you rather than your Western, Christian, living in a democracy family member or friend?

;)

[duality72]

Not much different since it would still be one person's opinion (though I assume she wouldn't make the mistake of conflating Allah with a moon god (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubal)). Certainly not any more seriously than I would take certain Christians-turned-atheists who insist all Christians are a dangerous menace to society. Hell, most of the same "points" in the OP message could be made with Christianity, certain Christians, and/or the Bible. Yet somehow western civilization carries on.

[Ice Wolf]

I would still call it ugly, kambuckta. Interesting bit in that article you linked to:Hirsi Ali has taken a prominent place in the Dutch debate about multiculturalism. The left-liberal intellectual Dick Pels describes Hirsi Ali as an exponent of liberal fundamentalism.

This ideology is similar to orthodox Islam in the sense that it thinks its perspective is superior and all people should be forced to have it. He thinks the way these liberal fundamentalists try to debate with Islam, by taunting and insulting them is not constructive. They only deteriorate the relations between migrants and native Dutch people.

[tomndebb]

Just as an interesting hypothetical, what would all of the thread-participants responses have been if it had been Hirsi Ali writing that email to you rather than your Western, Christian, living in a democracy family member or friend?It would be identical to my reactions to seeing something similar written by Gabriel Anthony Longo or Alberto Rivera. Any group has its collection of disgruntled people who have left, among that group will be people sufficiently upset to write about the "horrors" they experienced, and among that group there will always be a few who will make up terrible stories to justify just why they "had" to leave. Very rarely will such persons present anything resembling an accurate representation of the group and I see no reason to give them credit for "exposés" when there are far more adherents who are willing to provide a balanced view, even when it is critical.

This is not to say that I would dismiss everything an apostate had to say, but I would weigh their claims against other information presented by persons who had not left the group as well as observations by scholars from the outside who had studied the group.

(Longo was the author of Spoiled Priest many decades ago. He falls into the category of having a need to justify his actions. His autobiography of a man leaving the priesthood was filled with grand condemnations that amounted to little more than that he had not been paying much attention to his studies as he was going in and later felt the need to explain why felt trapped and had to get out.
Rivera is Jack Chick's private character assassin who has invented all sorts of tales of treachery in the RCC even though everyone who has tried to confirm any of his "facts" has come away recognizing him as a charlatan who has invented most of his life story.)

[kambuckta]

I would still call it ugly, kambuckta.

Oh sure, the motivations and underlying prejudices of the email writer in the OP should be questioned and challenged (as perhaps should those of Hirsi Ali herself, but for different reasons I would moot).

But why is it now verboten to say that the ideals of Islam and Western Democracy (whether it be Christian, Jewish or atheist for the argument) are contrary? Why is it necessarily ugly? To acknowledge that there are fundamental differences in the life-views between devout Muslims and 'everyone else' seems commonsensical to me, and should be the starting point for discourse to resolve those differences.

Sticking ones fingers in ones ears and denying that differences exist is ugly (because in denial, it discounts everyones world view, but at least it doesn't discriminate) and really, really stupid.

[Ice Wolf]

Yet again, you don't read posts properly, kambuckta. Enjoy your views, as I know you do.

[kambuckta]

It would be identical to my reactions to seeing something similar written by Gabriel Anthony Longo or Alberto Rivera. Any group has its collection of disgruntled people who have left, among that group will be people sufficiently upset to write about the "horrors" they experienced, and among that group there will always be a few who will make up terrible stories to justify just why they "had" to leave. Very rarely will such persons present anything resembling an accurate representation of the group and I see no reason to give them credit for "exposés" when there are far more adherents who are willing to provide a balanced view, even when it is critical.


I had never heard of Hirsi Ali before the interview I saw on Aus telly the other night. She certainly did not come across as a 'disgruntled', nor did she provide any exposes as such. She very clearly and succinctly (without the usual verbose garbage that accompanies 'celebs on a mission) outlined why she had forsaken Islam and why she believes that fundamentalist Islamic beliefs are necessarily in disagreement with the aims and ideals of western democracies.


She might well be a nutjob, but from my one-off televisual experience of her, she seemed remarkably reasonable and was able to articulate her view without recourse to demeaning of the Islamic world-view (except for her condemnation of female subjugation).

[kambuckta]

Yet again, you don't read posts properly, kambuckta. Enjoy your views, as I know you do.

At the time I posted MY post, your 'edited' version had not yet appeared.

So, please do not accuse me of not reading 'posts' properly. I was responding to your, "I would still call it ugly".

[Ice Wolf]

At the time I posted MY post, your 'edited' version had not yet appeared.

So, please do not accuse me of not reading 'posts' properly. I was responding to your, "I would still call it ugly". My edit shows a timestamp of 6.07 (my time), while your post is 6.28. :confused:

[kambuckta]

Yet again, you don't read posts properly, kambuckta. Enjoy your views, as I know you do.

Oh, and if you have been able to discern my 'view' about Muslims and Islam in general from this thread, you are a fucking psychic....in other words, full of shit.

:D

[kambuckta]

My edit shows a timestamp of 6.07 (my time), while your post is 6.28. :confused:

I was doing the dishes in between writing and posting. And I never check the preview button, because I have never needed to in the past, but I shall correct that in future with people posting extra shit in between their original post and their addended post. I thought the edit button was only meant for typos and stuff......adding more to the post is fucking wrong and I will complain bitterly in ATMB in a minute.

[Zoe]

kambuckta: Just as an interesting hypothetical, what would all of the thread-participants responses have been if it had been Hirsi Ali writing that email to you rather than your Western, Christian, living in a democracy family member or friend?

Despite the fact that she is critical of Islamic culture, Hirsi Ali is would have to step out of character to make such statements as:

Intellectually - no. Because he cannot accept the American Constitution since it is based on Biblical principles and he believes the Bible to be corrupt.

The person who wrote that is ignorant and the people who send it on in email are perpetuating ignorance. That's really a shame.

LorieSmurf, I am a daughter, a step-mother, and a grandmother. It is tough to set boundaries with people we love, but it is healthy to do so. You have done the right thing. You have every reason to be angry.

There are parallels to those who spread hatred and suspicion about the Japanese, the African-Americans, the Jews, the Irish. This is the new monster: the Muslim.

The terrorists on September 11 were Muslim. Therefore we should fear all Muslims? They were also all men. Shouldn't we fear all men? They were generally pretty young. Fear all young dark-eyed men. Makes sense to me.

How about the Gestapo in WWII? Christians, I think. We need to send out a warning email about Christians. That's kind of died down lately. Obviously Christians tend to be terrorists too.

Those who circulate that email are engaging in a kind of terrorism too. Who knows who the original source of that letter is? Your mother may be just a tool of some propoganda generating office of a sub-section of the bureau of internal investigations of the third level Central Intelligence Agency staffers who have long lists of anonymous nice mothers and their emails.

You did one thing that was very good. You told your mother what you were angry about. You didn't cover it up and let it fester and pretend nothing was wrong. And you told her that you didn't want to talk to her for a while. (That's good, but you let her know it's not forever.)

Since this one is different, you might want to consider writing out your feelings. Tell your mother why this time it's really important to you. Or maybe after you cool off yourself, you will just want to agree to disagree again.

At any rate, because you handled your anger so well, you and your mom will be able to breach the gap again. Maybe you can have a good influence on her thinking.

[Ice Wolf]

The quote came from your own link, kambuckta. I presumed you read it in its entirity before posting it. I explained in the edit what had been added to the original words-- but I will accept that you apparently typed up your reply, left it sitting on the screen to do your dishes, then clicked submit.

That kind of thing happens. Although the 21 minute gap between when my editing post appeared on screen and the time of your reply had me wondering what was going on.

[The Hamster King]

Our first line of defense against Muslim terrorists are loyal American Muslims. Muslim extremists generally interact with more moderate Muslim communities. That means that the best chance we have of catching them before they strike comes from the watchful eyes of patriotic Muslims.

Emails like this that demonize and marginalize Muslim Americans make it harder to fight the war on terror. They endanger us all.

[Miller]

Just as an interesting hypothetical, what would all of the thread-participants responses have been if it had been Hirsi Ali writing that email to you rather than your Western, Christian, living in a democracy family member or friend?

I work with a guy who is convinced that the US is a facist police state. Just being from a culture doesn't automatically mean you have any special insight to that culture.

[tomndebb]

She very clearly and succinctly (without the usual verbose garbage that accompanies 'celebs on a mission) outlined why she had forsaken Islam and why she believes that fundamentalist Islamic beliefs are necessarily in disagreement with the aims and ideals of western democracies.So your question that I answered was a hypothetical that went against the facts?

You have taken the statements of a person who believes that fundamentalist Islamic beliefs are necessarily in disagreement with the aims and ideals of western democracies and hypothesized that she might have spouted the inflammatory drivel quoted in the OP about a moderate Muslim who clearly does not reject the aims and ideals of western democracies.

I have no problem believing that a person who was raised in a Fundamentalist Islamic society might choose to reject all Islam, just as many persons raised in Fundamentalist Christianty choose to reject all Christianity or persons raised as strict Orthodox Jews may choose to reject Judaism. However, there is a difference between rejecting (a) religion for oneself and leveling a blanket condemnation of every person who continues to be a part of that group based on the rabid actions of some subset of the group.

Since it seems clear that Hirsi Ali would not condemn Representative Ellison, it seems odd to ask how one would react if she had. In order to condemn Ellison in the manner of the glurge posted in the OP, she would have to radically change her approach to the world to become more like Alberto Rivera--which would remove her from the ranks of persons who are not disgruntled (or liars).

[saoirse]

How about the Gestapo in WWII? Christians, I think.

More likely pagans or atheists. OKW and Abwher were full of Christians, though.

The general point is still valid, of course.

[Lizard]

I work with a guy who is convinced that the US is a facist police state. Just being from a culture doesn't automatically mean you have any special insight to that culture.

Tell your coworker to move to North Korea. I predict enlightenment will ensue.

[Monty]

My dad sent that very e-mail to me a while back. I responded with a quote from President Bush praising Islam and Muslims in America. Dad apparently vets the stuff he sends to me now.

[Cat Whisperer]

My dad sent that very e-mail to me a while back. I responded with a quote from President Bush praising Islam and Muslims in America. Dad apparently vets the stuff he sends to me now.
If responding in a way people don't care for makes them more careful of what they send you, it is a glorious victory in the war against ignorance, I would say.

I left the message board my husband frequents over a hate speech post there aimed towards Muslims - it was not treated like the hate speech it was, the offending poster was not even told to cool it with the hate speech, and the powers that be there chose to hide behind the screen of free speech. I had a strong feeling that if the group the hate was aimed at had been any other group than Muslims, it would have met a very different reaction from the board, and I haven't been back since. I understand the value of free speech, but there are some things not worth saying, things that you should call people on when they say them.

[kambuckta]

You have taken the statements of a person who believes that fundamentalist Islamic beliefs are necessarily in disagreement with the aims and ideals of western democracies and hypothesized that she might have spouted the inflammatory drivel quoted in the OP about a moderate Muslim who clearly does not reject the aims and ideals of western democracies.



Where did you get the 'moderate' bit from Tom?

From the OP:
Can a good Muslim be a good American? (My bolding).

My point was that the aims and ideals and philosophies of observant ('good') Muslims are different (and in some cases contradictory) to those of western folks. In some instances those differences are necessarily irreconcilable.

I was in no way suggesting that ALL people who identify themselves as Muslim be considered such.

[t-bonham@scc.net]

Where did you get the 'moderate' bit from Tom? I think Tom was referring to the political stance of Keith Ellison (MN-5), my Congressman.

Who is not even moderate, he is a strongly liberal Democrat (actually, Democratic-Farmer-Labor). If I can find them, I'll post some of the attacks his Republican opponents made on him last election, when he was running for the State Legislature -- they claimed he was not 'moderate', but a dangerous flaming liberal.

You can see his website with his view at www.KeithEllison.org

[tomndebb]

Where did you get the 'moderate' bit from Tom? As t-bonham@scc.net noted, the OP was an attack on Rep. Ellison who is a political liberal (as defined in the U.S.) but who would generally be placed in the category of "moderate" Muslim (in the way that most discussions of the "Islam vs The West" tend to frame the terms).

Barring an attack from some large number of Muslim groups on the religious views of Rep. Ellison, I see no reason to presume that he is not a "good" Muslim. If someone turns up condemnation from al Qaida (or similar groups--and I have not even seen that), it would not remove him from the ranks of "good" Muslims any more than an attack on Catholics Ken Salazar (D - CO) or David Vitter (R - LA) by Pat Robertson or Jimmy Swaggart would remove those gentlemen from the ranks of "good" Christians without similar condemnations from the governing bodies of the Episcopal, Lutheran, and Presbyterian denominations.

So an attack on Rep. Ellison by Ms. Ali seems to set up an odd situation in which she would condemn a man who was not a member of the faction which she has actually condemned.

[jsgoddess]

My point was that the aims and ideals and philosophies of observant ('good') Muslims are different (and in some cases contradictory) to those of western folks.

Right. Because if someone claims it, and it fits what you want to hear, it must be true.

[hotflungwok]

Anyone else notice that you can apply most of those points to Christians by changing a few words?

For example:
Religiously - no. Because no other religion is accepted by his God except Christianity (1st Commandment)

[Lama Pacos]

My point was that the aims and ideals and philosophies of observant ('good') Muslims are different (and in some cases contradictory) to those of western folks. In some instances those differences are necessarily irreconcilable.

From the email in the OP: "Therefore after much study and deliberation.... perhaps we should be very suspicious of ALL MUSLIMS in this country."

[C K Dexter Haven]

My suggestion for a reply:

Can a good Christian be a good American?

Theologically - no. Because his allegiance is to God and to Christ.
Religiously - no. Because no other religion is accepted by his God except Christianity (John 14:6)
Scripturally - no. Because his allegiance is to Jesus Christ and the bible
Geographically - no. Because his allegiance is to Rome (if Catholic)
Socially - no. Because his allegiance to Christ forbids him to make friends with Moslems or Jews or homosexuals or dark-skinned people (all damned by God.)
Politically - no. Because he must submit to the priests and pastors (spiritual leaders), who teach Armaggedon and the annihilation of the world and Destruction of America by Satan, as a prelude to the Second Coming.
Domestically - no. Because he is instructed that celebacy is the highest form of spiritual life.
Intellectually - no. Because he cannot accept the American Constitution since he believes the bible to be the only valid document, and any ideas that conflict with the bible (such as allowing dark-skinned people to vote) are corrupt.
Philosophically - no. Because Christianity and the bible do not allow freedom of religion and expression (heretics are to be stoned or killed.)
Democracy and Christianity cannot co-exist. Every Christian government is either dictatorial or autocratic or otherwise unjust.
Spiritually - no. Because when we declare "all men are created equal" the Christian's God holds that some men are saved and loved, and others are damned eternally.

[Miller]

I'm curious about the apparent attributions in the glurge from the OP's mom. Are those referring to actual passages in the Quran, or did the author just make up some numbers so it looks like they've actually read the book?

[Count Blucher]

From the email in the OP: "Therefore after much study and deliberation.... perhaps we should be very suspicious of ALL MUSLIMS in this country."

Why is it I can see and hear a young boy singing when I read this post?

"The branch of the linden is leafy and green"

*brown-shirt throws a Jewish store-owner to the ground*

"The Rhine gives its gold to the sea."

*brown-shirt holds the store-owner's arms while the other punches him*

"But somewhere a glory awaits unseen."

*brown-shirt kicks the bleeding and helpless store-owner as he lays on the ground*

"Tomorrow belongs to me..." :(

[LorieSmurf]

My dad sent that very e-mail to me a while back. I responded with a quote from President Bush praising Islam and Muslims in America. Dad apparently vets the stuff he sends to me now.


Good idea. I shoulda thought of that.

[LorieSmurf]

I'm curious about the apparent attributions in the glurge from the OP's mom. Are those referring to actual passages in the Quran, or did the author just make up some numbers so it looks like they've actually read the book?


I have no idea. I just copied and pasted the shit she sent me.

[vivalostwages]

Anti-Muslim bigoted glurge is everywhere. My half-witted brother in law sent this gem:

The lady who wrote this letter is Pam Foster, of Pamela Foster and Associates, in Atlanta. She's been in business since 1980, doing interior design and home planning. She recently wrote a letter to a family member serving in Iraq. Read it!

"Are we fighting a war on terror or aren't we? Was it or was it not started by Islamic people who brought it to our shores on September 11, 2001?


Were people from all over the world, mostly Americans, not brutally murdered that day, in downtown Manhattan, across the Potomac from our nation's capitol and in a field in Pennsylvania ?

Did nearly three thousand men, women and children die a horrible, burning or crushing death that day, or didn't they?

And I'm supposed to care that a copy of the Koran was "desecrated" when an overworked American soldier kicked it or got it wet?

Well, I don't. I don't care at all.

I'll start caring when Osama bin Laden turns himself in and repents for incinerating all those innocent people on 9/11.

I'll care about the Koran when the fanatics in the Middle East start caring about the Holy Bible, the mere possession of which is a crime in Saudi Arabia.

I'll care when Abu Musab al-Zarqawi tells the world he is sorry for hacking off Nick Berg's head while Berg screamed through his gurgling slashed throat.

I'll care when the cowardly so-called "insurgents" in Iraq come out and fight like men instead of disrespecting their own religion by hiding in mosques.

'll care when the mindless zealots who blow themselves up in search of nirvana care about the innocent children within range of their suicide bombs.

I'll care when the American media stops pretending that their First Amendment liberties are somehow derived from international law instead of the United States Constitution's Bill of Rights.

In the meantime, when I hear a story about a brave marine roughing up an Iraqi terrorist to obtain information, know this: I don't care.

When I see a fuzzy photo of a pile of naked Iraqi prisoners who have been humiliated in what amounts to a college-hazing incident, rest assured that I don't care.

When I see a wounded terrorist get shot in the head when he is told not to move because he might be booby-trapped, you can take it to the bank that I don't care.

When I hear that a prisoner, who was issued a Koran and a prayer mat, and fed "special" food that is paid for by my tax dollars, is complaining that his holy book is being "mishandled," you can absolutely believe in your heart of hearts that I don't care.

And oh, by the way, I've noticed that sometimes it's spelled "Koran" and other times "Quran." Well, Jimmy Crack Corn and, you guessed it, I don't care!

If you agree with this viewpoint, pass this on to all your E-mail friends. Sooner or later, it'll get to the people responsible for this ridiculous behavior!

If you don't agree, then by all means hit the delete button. Should you choose the latter, then please don't complain when more atrocities committed by radical Muslims happen here in our great Country.

So what do you do? Start a family fight? Let it pass? If a response would actually do any good, I'd say make a response. But if it would do nothing except make people angry, why bother?

A quick search at Snopes reveals some info about this particular one, though it was not written by "Pam Foster."

[Rubystreak]

I have no idea. I just copied and pasted the shit she sent me.

You should copy and paste what Dex posted back to your mom. People don't realize that Christianity, when taken to its most fundamentalist expression, is just as repressive, exclusionary, and "anti-American" as fundamentalist Islam. So easy to forget that when you're on the culturally favored side of the fence.

[BobLibDem]

A quick search at Snopes reveals some info about this particular one, though it was not written by "Pam Foster."

Yeah, I caught that too, but I copied as it was sent. Doug Patton is the real author. One wonders if he is losing any KKK Frequent Bigot Points by the misattribution to Pam Foster.

[vivalostwages]

Yeah, I caught that too, but I copied as it was sent. Doug Patton is the real author. One wonders if he is losing any KKK Frequent Bigot Points by the misattribution to Pam Foster.

The Admins at Snopes posted the content quoted in the OP on their message boards, but have not identified the author. Someone did, however, rework it with "Catholic" instead of Muslim, as was done upthread with Christian in place of Muslim.

Still can't determine the origin.

[Kalhoun]

This is the one I'm currently not speaking to my BIL about.

http://www.snopes.com/rumors/worryme.htm

Normally I wouldn't give this kind of crap a second thought, but he asked my opinion and I opened up on him with both barrels. I guess it's supposed to count as a Very Important Opinion since the author is a pilot (allegedly).

I'm waiting to see him standing on a corner with a sandwich board that says "Honk if you're a terrorist!"

[BobLibDem]

Gee, Kalhoun, maybe we have the same brother in law. I just got that same glurge yesterday. How about this excerpt:
Do you and your fellow Muslims hate us because our women proudly show their faces in public rather than cover up like a shameful whore?

What slime!

[Kalhoun]

Gee, Kalhoun, maybe we have the same brother in law. I just got that same glurge yesterday. How about this excerpt:


What slime!
That's the line that pushed me over the edge. I stopped directing my comments to the "author" and started directing them directly to the BIL. He's really quite pathetic. The glurge is the extent of his reading on the subject.

[DianaG]

Erm... is covering up now considered the mark of a shameful whore? Did I miss a memo?