Religion of the nazis?

[Yarster]

Perhaps a simple question, but one I couldn't find in the archives (though it must have been asked before). Sitting around the table at Rosh Hashana with all the other Jewish relatives, the topic turned to the nazis and the holocaust as it often does. But no one knew the answer to the most obvious question....

The nazis obviously weren't fond of the Jews and many other religions, but what religion were they?

Some of thought they must be Protestant (on the basis that we were pretty sure they killed Catholics too) while others thought they must not have had a religion at all (or that 'Aryan' was both a race and religion) believing Hitler was God, though that sounds a little far fetched even for a nazi. After all, they must have been of some religion BEFORE the nazi party came around to organize them...

So what religion were the nazis?

[Kyberneticist]

This has come up soooo many times on Usenet. Basically I don't think the Nazi part was specifically religious. And while Hitler claimed to be a Catholic Christian, the immediate Christian response is that he didn't act like one and the whole bunch were probably rotten evil atheists.

[Grither]

Originally posted by Yarster
The nazis obviously weren't fond of the Jews and many other religions, but what religion were they?

I think the key here lies in the fact that just because someone is anti-"them" doesn't necessarily mean they're pro-"us". Heh. Stated another way, what would make you think that there was a state religion in Nazi Germany?

Isn't "what religion were the Nazis" as nonsensical a question as "what color are Nazis' eyes"?

mm

[Chronos]

I think that as long as we keep this to what religion the German Nazis claimed to be, and not whether they actually were religious, we're safely in GQ territory. I'll keep an eye on this thread.
As mentioned by Kyberneticist, Hitler described himself as Catholic, but I can't see that all the rest would have been of one particular religion. Does anyone have stats on the demographic breakdown of the Nazi party?

[Spiny Norman]

Hitler contradicted himself on this issue all the time, depending on whom he was talking to. The man lied as easily as breathing - and looking for internal consistency in Nazism is a futile exercise.

Basically, Nazism had little or no spiritual dimension.

The SS "academies" - probably the places where the biggest effort was done to actually try to imprint people with the Nazi "ideals" - certainly weren't Christian. A lot of old mythology was dug up (solstice etc.), but basically, most official Nazi celebrations were done to celebrate the Führer, the Party and the strength embodied in them, nothing else.

Religion was accepted as long as it didn't interfere with the Party's workings. Religion was used on the off cahnce it mieght be of benefit - for example, the fact that the Communists were atheists were used in propaganda, as everything else that might have worked was.

S. Norman

[Grither]

Originally posted by Grither
Isn't "what religion were the Nazis" as nonsensical a question as "what color are Nazis' eyes"?

Okay, I'm an idiot...as I'm sure will be pointed out, all good Nazi's eyes are blue...

mm

[Boris B]

Isn't "what religion were the Nazis" as nonsensical a question as "what color are Nazis' eyes"?
No. A lot of political parties are associated with religions. Without asking the question, you wouldn't know the answer.
Q: What church is the Netherlands' Reformational Political League associated with?
A: The Dutch Reformed church. (I'm not saying that it is the political wing of the church, or that there is any formal affiliation between church and party, but the party's goal is to represent church-goers.)

I'll submit that Nazism was pretty close to a religion to begin with. Goofy racial theories were accepted as gospel; Hitler was revered beyond the status of an ordinary man; history was replaced by mythology. They didn't call themselves a religion, but they sure acted like one: mass rallies to hear the words of a charismatic leader who promised to lead his people out of (a mostly imagined) captivity ... sounds pretty religious to me. Ask a loyal German soldier why he kept fighting in 1945 when all was lost, and he'd tell you, the Fuehrer will see us through to eventual victory. Blind faith with the emphasis on "blind".

[Ukulele Ike]

Okay, so let's re-phrase the question as "What were the predominant religions in Germany under the Third Reich, and did National Socialism do anything to guide its political adherants toward or away from any one of 'em?"

I seem to remember that Bavaria (and the south in general) had a lot of Catholics, but that most of the country was Protestant...Lutheran, I assume.

[Arnold Winkelried]

Many of these questions that plague mankind have already been answered by Cecil Adams or one of his minions.

Was Hitler a Christian? (30-Oct-1999) (http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mhitlerchristian.html)

Was Hitler an "honest to God" Christian, or was he simply using religion as a means of control? --Carl Stieger

SDSTAFF David replies:

The short answer is a definite "maybe" or, more precisely, "probably neither." The looooong answer is somewhat more complicated.

[Arnold Winkelried]

Ukulele Ike, don't forget that Hitler was Austrian, and all good austrians are catholic.

[Yeah]

I don't know what religion Hitler was but I think it was in many ways similar to Jim Jones' "religion"?

[Lumpy]

National Socialism took much of it's inspiration from some semi-mystical ideas that had been floating around Germany for some time. Specificly, the reverence for the "blood" of the "folk" as the manifestation of a divine essence. According to this mythology, the Aryans were a perfect people filled with and expressing the "life force", until the race was weakened by interbreeding and Judeo-Christian morality.

Most of the Nazi's political doctrines can be traced directly or indirectly to this idea. Thus to the extent that one can say that Nazism had a "religion", it was the worship of the race.

[Diceman]

The Straight Dope Staff researched this, and the answer is: Hitler claimed to be Christian to gain support, but privately he was something else entirely. His beliefs seem to have been a pagan system based on the old Teutonic gods. There was an all-powerfull nature god, a god of races, and one or two more. Most of Hitler's inner circle of cronies belonged to this group, though I think there was one prominent exception (I don't remember who, but I want to say Goering). The Nazi pantheon was decended pretty directly from a cult called the Thule Society. The Nazi swastica was taken direcly from the Thule Society's symbol.

[Nimue]

On a related note, there's a documentary coming on Channel 4 here (UK) called Hitler's Search for the Holy Grail. Part of the description reads: "The Nazis' obsessive quest for religious relics, which they believed would validate their claim to be the master race." I wonder if they only pursued Christian relics? Unfortunately the show doesn't air until Thursday so unless someone here knows more about it, I'll have to wait till then to find out.

[bibliophage]

A little-known fact is Hitler's attempt to nationalize the Protestant churches. Early in the Third Reich, Protestants were divided into three roughly equal parts: so-called "German Christians" who supported Hiter, the "Confessional Church" which opposed him, and those who took no sides. In 1933 a charter was passed by the Reichstag for something called "the Reich Church" which was intended to bring together all the Protestant churches that represented so-called "German Christians" under the authority of Hitler and his friends.

Eventually, all ministers in Germany were required to swear oaths of allegiance to Hitler. Thousands of "Confessional Church" ministers were arrested and sent to concentration camps. In the end, the majority of Protestant ministers did bend to Hitler's will.

[David B]

As I noted in the Mailbag item referenced earlier, Hitler spoke out of both sides of his mouth on this one. But the question here wasn't what religion Hitler was, but what religion the Nazis were. To that, the answer is: many different ones. Some were Christians. Of the Christians, some were Catholic, some Protestant. Some were non-Christian and followed the pagan-type beliefs already mentioned.

If the Nazis had won, I suspect that Hitler would have tried to eradicate Christianity in favor of his own beliefs, but, luckily, we'll never know.

[Ukulele Ike]

Oh, that's just like you, David. You NEVER give Hitler the benefit of the doubt.

[wevets]

Thank you, Ike. That's the funniest thing I've heard all day. :)

[Doug Bowe]

Can anyone dig up a copy of "The Rise & Fall of the Third Reich" by Wm. Shirer?
My copy is hundreds of miles away...but this was covered in there. I recall an alter with a sword to one side.
Hitler's book is somehow involved on that alter.
And to the folks who mentioned the Teutonic Gods...that seems to ring true.

[Little Nemo]

If the Nazis had won, I suspect that Hitler would have tried to eradicate Christianity in favor of his own beliefs, but, luckily, we'll never know.

Throughout the Nazi reign, there were official groups designated to make plans for what would happen after a German victory. Part of these plans were for the colonization of Eastern Europe by "Aryan" settlers. Plans were drawn up for new cities that were to be built and populated by these settlers. Pointedly, no churches were included in these plans. Clearly, at some point, the Nazis planned on eliminating Christianity as a rival influence over the German people.

[Ukulele Ike]

A little off-subject, but there've been several references in this thread to the influence on the Nazis of belief systems even screwier than Christianity...

There are several books available on the supposed occult background of National Socialism. Many are entertainingly loopy, and I hesitate to recommend them in GQ, because they may not be entirely accurate.

Oh, what the hell. Try Trevor Ravenscroft's THE SPEAR OF DESTINY, about Hitler's belief in the magical power of the weapon that supposedly pierced Jesus's side. Ravenscroft is pretty thoroughly debunked in Anderson's HITLER AND THE OCCULT. Somewhere in the middle is Jean Michel Angebert's THE OCCULT AND THE THIRD REICH: THE MYSTICAL ORIGINS OF NAZISM AND THE SEARCH FOR THE HOLY GRAIL.

If you read these books on public transportation, be sure to wear your aluminum-foil hat to ward off negative telepathic vibrations.