Thinking of becoming bi-

Lingual, that is. Always wanted to try, anyway. The local community college offers the list below. I notice manny of the TM versed in additional languages, so I'll ask yooz guys. Here are my criteria:

1. User friendliness (I'm not getting any younger, not much time left)
2. Relevance to daily life (business, etc.)
3. Payoff (watching foreign movies without subtitles)

Current nominations are: German, Spanish, Japanese, Russian and French. Which language would you recommend and why?

[[Current nominations are: German, Spanish, Japanese, Russian and French. Which language would you recommend and why?]]

Russian and German have case endings. This is a difficult concept for a lot of native English speakers. Russian has more cases than German. If you want more details on case endings, read on. If not, skip the following paragraph.

Some nouns (and sometimes their adjectives) have a special suffix depending on how the word is used in a sentence. The locative (location) case is for a word that tells where the verb happened. In the phrase "Prof. Plum, in the kitchen, with the knife," "kitchen" would be in the locative. Knife would be in the instrumental. The accusative case is for the direct object of the verb. The dative case is for the indirect object. And that's not all the cases.

The hardest part of learning a language, for many people, is memorizing vocabulary. German, Spanish and French will have the most vocabulary similar to English.

French and Spanish have grammar that is the most similar to English (no cases, most of the same tenses, prepositions have good equivalency). The problem with French is that native speakers (IN GENERAL) have an aversion to talking with beginners. You may be snubbed when you try to practice.

Russians, on the others hand, love to talk to beginners. Especially Americans.

Russian is very expressive. Facial expression is a big part of the culture, so it is easier to follow Russians using vocal tone and body language cues. If you know some Russians who will talk with you, you'll pick up Russian the fastest, most likely.

However, with Russian, you will have to learn a new alphabet.

I don't know Japanese, but my brother does. He says the biggest problem is that the word-to-word equivalencies with English are not very good. The word have to be learned by concept, not by English word equivalency. He says that people are pretty nice to beginners, however.

Russian and German (and I THINK Japanese, but I'm not sure) are spelled pretty much phonetically. French is most definitely not. Spelling French will be hard to learn.

Consider you strong points. If you are lousy at logic, but good at rote memory, go for French. If you are the opposite, Russian might be better.

But your primary consideration is what kind of community is there for you to practice with? If there are a large number of Russian speakers, and very few Japanese speakers, Russian will come easier. If there is an immersion program (a dorm you can live in, where only the new language is spoken, and where native and practiced speakers are there to set an example), then go for the immersion program language. Short of that, see if there is a club for speakers of the language.

If there is an Hispanic community where you live, and can hang out, Spanish is you best bet.


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--Rowan
Shopping is still cheaper than therapy. --my Aunt Franny

Depends on your desires:

In much of the United States, especially the Southwest and Florida, Spanish is your best bet. Many cities have at least one Spanish channel, so if nothing else you can watch Spanish TV with your newfound abilities. There are also some excellent Spanish movies (Tango, Bunuel, Almovodar), and quite a few items of Spanish literature (my personal high: reading a collection of essays "Siete Noches" by Jorge Luis Borges in Spanish). Without further information, Spanish would be my default choice.

French is also excellent, especially if you are planning to visit certain areas of Canada or the Caribbean. No TV programming in most cities in the US, but excellent music (opera and chansons), movies, and literature.

German, on the other hand, may allow you to decipher enough Yiddish to figure out what Rowan is writing about in some of her more obscure posts. Yiddish is, as far as I know, one of the few languages used regularily on this board. Most German speakers in America speak good English, and there are few TV programs out there. There are, however, some excellent movies and plenty of literature. From personal experience, knowing German and English will also enable you to understand most of Dutch comic books (but not make ANY sense of spoken Dutch), which is of dubious advantage unless you visit The Netherlands or Belgium.

Unless you are going to visit the Far East, or have Japanese business contacts you would like to impress, I would not recommend Japanese. Even if you speak Japanese perfectly you will not be able to read it (Rowan is PARTIALLY correct about their phonetic spelling: Japanese has two alphabets that are syllabic, one character for each syllable; however, the bulk of their writing is done in Kanji, a variation on Chinese writing -- learning this is a SERIOUS project). There are some excellent movies in Japanese, and it is also useful if you have an interest in tea ceremony and Oriental board games (I used to love to play Go).

I don't know much about Russian. A lot of Russian is spoken at computer shows among the dealers, maybe that would be useful. I have never met a Russian speaking person who did not speak English. Again, not much TV programming. The most recent Russian movie I remember enjoying was Battleship Potemkin (1925). There is a lot of famous literature, though.

Just a helpful hint- I took 4 yrs Spanish in high scool, and 2 in college, but going down to Cancun for spring break did so much for my comprehension in one week it was incredible. After studying a language for awhile, try to get immersed in it for a week or two. It will really help.
For what it's worth, the people down there really tried to help me speak it, too. It's been 3 years since I took any, but they worked with me when I struggled. I think they view it as an honor if you can speak their tongue(or try to, as was my case)

Of course, sly, if you're thinking about checking out any other bi experiences, you might want to brush up on your Greek skills.

I spoke German, lost it very quick without use. And you'll never use it in practice unless you reall try, like vacation in central Europe frequently.

I suggest Spanish, you'll likely be familiar with more of it than you realize, and traveling to Mexico (assuming your american) is cheap and common. Spanish is very easy for english speakers to learn.

German was easy for me at the time, it is very logical, and has few shortcuts and exceptions to rules. Most is phonetic, and words can be figured out easily by disecting the root.

For the nominations you already have, the previous comments seem pretty exhaustive. I differ with Rowan in one point: French seems pretty logical to me. It's still complex, though, which is no contradiction.

As a new candidate, how about Italian? Also pretty logical (so I'm told; I never got too far) and rather easy to learn, especially - but not only - if you've done some Spanish, French, or Latin (yeah, right) before. You'll find an Italian equivalent for most English words with Latin roots.

Italian has a beautiful sound that the chicks will love (hey, you asked about payoff, didn't you?), and the spelling is almost purely phonetic. If you can get a native speaker to talk a bit more slowly ("Parli piu lentamente, per favore."), it's easy to understand, and it's also easy to pronounce unless you feel you MUST roll your R's like the natives do. It uses your normal alphabet without diacritics except to mark a variant stress (stress is otherwise very regular, too).

It's useful for the cineast, and I think there's quite a share of people of Italian descent in the US. Italian is very expressive (like Rowan said about Russian), and you'll be able to borrow a few words - including some expletives - for your everyday English. Italians are generally open-minded toward foreigners, and Italy is a nice country for your holidays.

The main drawback seems to be the small number of countries where Italian is spoken: Italy, parts of Switzerland, and that's about it. And don't get involved with the mob!

Holger

Spanish! Spanish! Spanish! Spanish! Spanish!

No hay lengua más hermosa que la lengua española.

¡Salud!

An easy starting point for the major languages is a CD Rom course. Some are pretty good at the speaking part.

Well, Bob Dylan sang: "Spanish is the loving tongue, soft as music, light as spring...."

But if we can nominate NEW languages, might I suggest Czech? Apparently they sold all their vowels to the Hawaiians in prehistoric times, allowing them to use sentences like:

Strc prst skrz krk.

(There should be a hook (inverted circumflex) over the first c)

I've only taken Spanish and French, so I won't discuss the others.

Between these two, for sheer pronouncability, I recommend Spanish. Spanish is very easy to pronounce - the only sound that they use not in English is the trilled R - and many dialects don't even trill the R. (I was in Cabo San Lucas, diligently trilling my Rs and the waiter looked at me funny, then repeated my order with no trills.) In addition, the rules on pronunciation are simple - each letter & dipthong has exactly one way to be pronounced and is almost always pronounced that way.

French pronunciation, OTOH, is almost byzantine. As far as I can tell, a third of the letter are vocalized, a third aren't, and for a third, you start to vocalize the letter, then change your mind.

For the sheer fact that there are so many speakers of Spanish in the US (I'm being USA-centric and assuming that's where you're from), I'd say that'd be the most useful language to learn.

My brother took four years of Spanish in high school, and was disappointed that he didn't get to use it - until he got a job where the other chef/kitchen guys were Mexican. He got a great kick listening to them talk about the other workers in Spanish, thinking that no one could understand what they were saying. ;)

lovelee

El español se parece ser el favorito. Gracias por su entrada de información.

Japanese is also a little more difficult if you don't have the time to spend on it. Here are some reasons why:

Most vocabulary is 100% removed from english (i.e. not like the Vaquero- bucaroo= cowboy connection).

You need to learn 3 count em 3 alphabets to read it. 2 are phonetic, one is the pictogram system of common word characters, to be at a 6th grade level you only need to memorise about 1600 of them.

Most japanese movies and tv they speak so quicly it's hard to distinguish the words unless you have a lot of audial experience with the language. As someone pointed out, if you live in an area that has less japanese speakers, this is not a good idea.

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To deal with men by force is as impractical as to deal with nature by persuasion.

Sly: There are a number of "immersion" Spanish schools here in Cuernavaca. What they do is to accomodate you with a mexican family who is instructed NOT to speak English with you. You take classes at school for a number of hours every day, and then you get to enjoy our beautiful weather (even when it rains, it's gorgeous!), our great food, and you learn the language by practicing it or starving... :) (kidding)

It's almost like being on vacation!

I can send you some info if you want. Just e-mail me.

Espero que pronto podamos platicar en español.

Saludos.

A word of caution about French: I took French in high school, then ended up moving to south Louisiana and marrying a Cajun.

It ain't the same French.

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sosumi

Exposure is so important. Two of the languages I know keep slipping away when I go for a year or more without using them (and it has to be more than just ordering your lunch at the Hunan Wok). So whatever you select, make sure you'll have plenty of opportunities to practice at length. I'm sure I would have retained a higher fluency level if I had, er... exposed myself more.

Stay away from tonal languages unless you have a musical ear. I think that is what has allowed me to pick up Vietnamese so easily. Tones are of paramount importance in many (all?) Asian languages, and you need to be able to master the tones if you want to hold conversations where the listener doesn't giggle at you from time to time. Getting the tone wrong in Vietnamese is about 100 times worse than getting the accent wrong in Spanish.

From your short list of choices, I pick Spanish.

Handy, I have been caught more than a few times by people who were on the other side of a restauant window & intercepted what I was signing. I am wondering what the signing equivalent of whispering is, so I can keep my conversation private from people a hunderd yards away.

Sly, I'm thinking of learning a 2nd language also. I'm choosing Spanish for a few reasons:
1. After 4 years of French in high school (that I promptly forgot thru non-use), Spanish should be easy for me to pick up
2. Large Hispanic population in the US for me to use it on
3. Can easily get Spanish television (Unavision, sp?)
4. Um, well, I don't have a #4

anyway, those are my reasons. Let us know what you decide. I've always wanted to learn Japanese though. I was stationed in Okinawa for 2 years and totally regret not at least learning how to speak it. (Young and foolish at the time, sowing wild oats)

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...it has never been my way to bother much about things which you can't cure.
- A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court-Mark Twain

..."whispering a sweet 'ACHTUNG FRUELINE's in her ear."

Oh, ich habe mich fast tot gelacht... (translation: har, har :D )

Plus, we all know that Hispanic women are the world's most beautiful!!!

After much deliberation I have come to a conclusion. Japanese is out, simply too difficult. Russian, with it's cases and new alphabet (thanks Rowan), is out. French (actually my first choice) is not a language I could readily find anyone with whom to converse. German and Spanish. Spanish and German. And the winner is:

Spanish.

I registered this evening. Classes begin August 4th. Wish me luck and thanks for the input folks. I knew I could count on the TM. Mucho gracias!

BunnyGirl: Buena suerte. Perhaps we could help each other learn, si?

I am moving to San Diego this winter, and want to brush up on mine too. If you need any help or have any question, let me know, I could use some practice.

If you're in the U.S. and just want to acquire a second language I would recommend Spanish (If you make the commitment go ahead and learn Castillian Spanish, although the Berlitz blitz can get you up to speed on the stripped down central america version real quick). French would be my second choice, but only because that's the one I spent years with. Reality check tells me French is not a critical language, unless you're French or Quebequ...(sp?)

Asian languages are harder to master for native-English speakers. The construction and tense don't easily translate. I spent a couple of years as a child in Japan and learned a, what would you call it (?), pidgin japanese. Not really usefull unless you make the commitment to get it all under command (big time learning curve).

Sly: There are a number of "immersion" Spanish schools here in Cuernavaca. What they do is to accomodate you with a mexican family who is instructed NOT to speak English with you. You take classes at school for a number of hours every day, and then you get to enjoy our beautiful weather (even when it rains, it's gorgeous!), our great food, and you learn the language by practicing it or starving... (kidding)
It's almost like being on vacation!

I can send you some info if you want. Just e-mail me.

Espero que pronto podamos platicar en español.

Saludos.


Hey, E1Skeptic, I would like some information. por favor. email me? tipiwoo@aol.com. thanks. :)

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tipi :)

Learn German!!! The real language of romance. Just picture it, you cuddling up close to your love, and whispering a sweet 'ACHTUNG FRUELINE's in her ear. :)



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>>while contemplating the navel of the universe, I wondered, is it an innie or outie?<<

---The dragon observes

Sly, I'm thinking of learning a 2nd language also. I'm choosing Spanish for a few
reasons:
1. After 4 years of French in high school (that I promptly forgot thru non-use), Spanish should be easy for me to pick up

You think you forgot your French. It'll all come back to you when you're struggling for that Spanish word.

(I minored in French and then decided to study Spanish. Haven't touched a French book in years. I still find myself parler-ing when I want to hablar.)

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Never regret what seemed like a good idea at the time.

No no, you must learn sign language, then you can talk about people in the room, restaurant, etc and they don't know what you are saying.

As a Francophone, I have to agree with Holg and Zyada: French is indeed logical (sometimes much too much for its own good!) and occasionally byzantine in it's pronunciation -- but then again, it is definitely not alone in this last respect. As for degree of difficulty, it would certainly be easier for an Italian or Spanish speaking person to learn French (all in all a rather complex language) than it would for an Anglophone, given the respective affinities.

Spanish is different all over the world and, as an example, the South Americans say that the Puerto Ricans don't speak spanish.They say that, not me.

Given the rise in spanish usage throughout our country and the probability that it will increase I recommend Spanish.

However make sure it's what is called
'Kitchen Spanish' and not Castilian.

The number of places where Castilian is spoken are so few as to be uncountable.

Some of the textbooks used in the southwestern states[Ariz,N.Mex etc] are kitchen spanish and ,while not non-existant,the rolled -R is minimized.

Adios Y buena suerte.

Well, I guess I am a tad late in making a suggestion....but in the realm of obscure languages.....how about Finnish?

Se on oikein helppo kieli opetella, jos on sata vuotta aikaa!

sunbear gets this one, anyone else?

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Cogito Ergo Vroom
I think therefore I ride fast...

Basque. Basque. BASQUE!!!

Ona da, euskara hitzegin.

Actually I would have to throw my vote in behind Spanish, even though I don't speak it. It's probably the one language you'll get the most chance to use around the States, especially the big coastal cities or the Southwest. Of course, if you want to go trilingual, there are a number of us who'd gladly give you all the info you'd want about Esperanto ;)

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Cave Diem! Carpe Canem!

I work at a company in Wisconsin that is owned by a Japanese company. Our president is Japanese, and there are several other Japanese in lower management positions with whom I interact daily. I was given the standard text in Japan for foreigners learning Japanese (Japanese for Busy People), and I've worked through some of it. My coworkers have also taught me some objectionable things to say ("Watashi-no chimpo-wa oishi desu!").</P>

Japanese is apparently the easiest Asian language to learn because it's not tonal at all, and the grammar isn't too difficult. Moreover, it's a very simplified language conversationally, where articles and pronouns are simply dropped if the context is clear.</P>

Someone pointed out that there is almost no common vocabulary between English and Japanese: this isn't totally true. English is effectively a required second tongue in Japan. It's taught in all the schools, and children go to "cram" schools to brush up. Consequently, the Japanese are incorporating English words into the language at a furious pace. According to the Rosetta Stone Japanese language CD I bought, the Japanese word for ball is "booru", for table, "tabru". I asked my brother, who's fluent in Japanese, how to say "blow-up doll", and he replied "brow up dorru". It's the same linguistic phenomenon that happened to English during the Roman and Norman occupations of England; as a consequence, English vocabulary is 80% latin in origin (thought the remaining teutonic 20% is used the most).</P>

There are actually four 'alphabets'. There's the classical Chinese alphabet of kanji, with its thousands of ideographic characters. There's hiragana and katakana, two phonetic alphabets of around 110 characters each, roughly corresponding to Japanese and foreign languages. And then there's Romaji, which is the previous phonetic alphabets in roman characters (used for computers, and increasingly dominant in schools).</P>

I lived in Montreal for four years, and failed to learn French properly, in part because Quebecois don't really like helping a learner. The Japanese I know, however, get just too excited when I can spout a new phrase. Overall, I've picked up what Japanese I know more easily just because it's basically foreign: without similarities upon which I can rely, I have to use it functionally. "Kore-wa nan desu ka?" means "what's that?". "Ohaiyo-gazaimasu" is "good morning" (literally, "damn, it's early"). I've been told the wrong approach to learning a language is to build a dictionary in your head; the right way is to learn how to use it, and the grammar will follow. If that's true, and my experience bears it out, then Japanese might be easier than a language like French, which is tantalizingly similar, but has a million grammatical corrections waiting in the wings.</P>

I took French and German in high school and college. I like French alot but I recommend Spanish. I bet, in this country, we will be experiencing alot of Spanish or Latin cultural influences in the next 15 years or so.

[red wings]

Sly, det gar inte att lara dig en annan sprak. Om du vet det nytt dor ar ett ord nar bokstavener har vara byten, Da vet du att du kan slicka endan av en stor javla gris.

[Doobieous]

Japanese is apparently the easiest Asian language to learn because it's not tonal at all, and the grammar isn't too difficult. Moreover, it's a very simplified language conversationally, where articles and
pronouns are simply dropped if the context is clear.

Actually Japanese is ranked as one of the hardest Languages to learn (level 4). It can be very vague. The Austronesian languages are some of the easier Asian languages to learn (in a 5 month, 5 hr a day Tagalog course, i was able to write a one page essay half way through the course in Tagalog and get most of it right).

Anyway even though Sly told us which language he is going to pursue, i also reccomend Spanish. For English speakers it's one of the easier ones to pronounce and write (i also noticed most native speakers dont roll their r's hard). My teachers teach us phrases and expressions that are usually used and tell us if something isn't used much (like most books have the Vosotros form of verbs but my teacher last semester didnt focus on it because no one in the Americas uses it). Language is also a "use it or lose it" thing. Im starting to forget a few things in Spanish, but luckily regular school for me is starting back up soon. Fortunately i have people i know who i can practice my spanish with.

Sly: Buena suerte!