Any thoughts on pursuing an MFA in Creative Writing?

[Sampiro]

I applied to 8 MFA programs in Creative Writing this year. I would probably have applied to more except
1- It's an expensive and time consuming process
2- I had no idea how exclusive/competetive they are (acceptance rates range from about 1% to 10% of applicants depending on the program)

At the time I was enthusiastic about the notion. Since then I have swung back and forth on the notion several times.

To date I've received two rejections, two acceptances and one waitlist. The other three I haven't heard from.

Funding varies from program to program: the [far from certain] waitlist program is by far the best funding, one of the acceptances (ironically to a far more prestigious and "hard to get into" school than either of the rejections) has pitiful funding, meaning I'd have to borrow out my corpulent bum for a degree that's not exactly a license to print money. The other acceptance I would call "eh"- tuition waiver and stipend that I figure would cover rent, utilities, and three Happy Meals per semester; I'd need loans or part-time jobs for other things.

The reasons I applied to MFA programs are:

1- It's a terminal degree, which would allow me to teach in college classrooms or, should I choose not to, could be used in conjunction with my current terminal degree (Masters of Library Science) to get a higher paycheck.
2- I wanted the time to edit and revise my book (Casseroles for the Dead, ultimately to be a major motion picture starring Dick Van Patten, Esther Williams, Muhammad Ali, Frankie Muniz, Jonathan Lipnicki, Vanessa Redgrave, Maximilian Schell, Charlize Theron, Jennifer Love Hewitt, and introducing Tucker Carlson as Miz Ruby) and felt a MFA program would give me more time than most full time jobs.
3- The opportunity to read a lot of the authors I've always wanted to read but never had the time to do so
4- Whatever else they got to teach there. (Not to sound immodest but I don't think I need [or even would care] to learn style as much as I do editing and revision {and that's just this post}, but I certainly don't dispute that I have much to learn as a writer in general.)

The reasons I'm currently leaning towards not pursuing it:

1. Money
2. Financial considerations
3. Economic incentives
4. Fiscal matters

For the first time in my life I'm-= almost = debt free. I owe about $8000 on a student loan and that's it- no car payment, no credit cards, nothing else other than a mortgage (and that with about a 1/3 equity). I like it. IF instead of pursuing grad work I stay employed I could live better than I would in grad school and yet still be saving money rather than going further into (student loan) debt, and while I can teach with an MFA the jobs are harder to find than librarian jobs while the pay's about the same IF you can find a full time job.

OTOH, 2-3 years as a full-time writer (even if it is an academic one)- that's a dream come true.

OTOH, being totally debt free and financially solvent- that's also a dream come true.

OTOH, I'd rather write than be a librarian.

OTOH, the greatest and or bestselling writers of all time, very few of them had MFAs or even took creative writing courses, while some of the worst "name" writers I've ever read... did.

OTOH, can I turn my back on my faith?

OTOH, can I deny my own daughter?

NO CHAVA! NO CHAVA! NOOOOOOOOOOO CHAVA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

TUITION---- TUITION---- yaidle deedle dai---- TUITION!

As always the Inevitable Disclaimer of O.P. Exoneration (I-DOPE): I'm not asking somebody else to make the decision for me but using a thread as a sounding board because often there are points raised by other Dopers I haven't considered. Which way would you lean? Any advice or comments welcome, but particularly interested in anybody who's been involved with an MFA C.W. program or published without one.

(P.S.- I'm definitely not going to accept an offer that would require borrowing a ton as the one acceptance required- in fact I already rejected that acceptance, and in fact I'd choose better funding offer over better program if there was a really huge difference.)

[kunilou]

It's not the same situation, but my daughter graduated with a degree in creative writing and one of my sons is majoring in music. I'll say the same thing I said to them.

Assume you will never make an extra dime with this degree. Assume you will be working day jobs that don't have a thing to do with your degree. Now, is it worth it?

For them, the answer was a clear yes. My daughter loved her education (and my son is currently loving his) and even if they live in our basement for the rest of their lives, they'll consider their education valuable.

My wife, on the other hand, has had several opportunities to get a PhD all-expenses-paid and she's never felt it was worth the time or effort.

If you love the idea, you'll want to do it, no matter what the (temporary) hardship.

[WhyNot]

OTOH, the greatest and or bestselling writers of all time, very few of them had MFAs or even took creative writing courses, while some of the worst "name" writers I've ever read... did.
This, to me, says a lot. I agree, and I've seen no less than four MFA's in creative writing come out much worse than when they went in, and NONE come out better. As a result, I'm a little jaded.

You write great. Greatly. You is a good user of the words of the language.

I foresee that being pounded out of you in a formal program. I see hatchet jobs being done by underpublished teachers (or publishers of crap) who want to make your writing into what they would do. The best thing about your writing, IMHO, is that it's so utterly uniquely YOU.

I don't want to read stories of Mama and like Dave Barry or Henry James or William Faulkner or Anne Rice would write. I want to read you.

Frankly, I don't think you need a teacher. You may need an editor, but I hear they come in six packs at the local drugstore now.

[jsgoddess]

I know tons of MFAs, though in poetry instead of prose. Many of them seem to think it was worth it.

[rackensack]

Read Donald Hall's essay Poetry and Ambition (http://www.poets.org/viewmedia.php/prmMID/16915). Yes, it's about poetry, not fiction, but most of his comments about MFA programs are valid either way.

The only compelling reason to get an MFA in Creative Writing is to get a job teaching Creative Writing. If you want to be a writer, your time would be better spent writing, and re-writing, and re-writing.

One of Donald Hall's most compelling (to me) arguments in the above essay is his contention that the workshop format of MFA programs inevitably forces a sameness in the products of the workshop -- that the members tend to end up all sounding alike, writing as they do to please or impress the other workshop members, instead of finding what works best for each of them. Even if you go in determined to keep your own voice, the desire of the other members to impress the faculty writer leading the workshop will almost always cause them to tailor their comments on your work to that end -- at which point you either cave in and start writing to please them (which means writing to meet whatever their understanding of the teacher's tastes is), or you run the risk of being judged unworthy by their standards, potentially jeopardizing your progress toward the degree.

I've participated in writing workshop groups that did work, but only when the members were already different enough to avoid the temptation to write to the other group members' tastes, and when the members liked or at least respected one another enough to relish their stylistic differences while still being able to learn from one another and trust the criticisms of the others. This is really only possible when no member of the group has any sort of structural or external power or sway over the others -- i.e., where there's no professor or leader, except perhaps the person who arranges the meetings.

As long of the likelihood of a livelihood depends on impressing enough faculty and other students to get the degree, it'll be nearly impossible not to succumb.

I'm not arguing that there aren't technical aspects of writing that can be learned, but I would argue that they're primarily learned by reading, and to some extent by talking about that reading with other perceptive readers. I just see a lot more of that happening outside the context of MFA programs than within it, where too many of the candidates seem to regard reading great writers as, at best, a tiresome distraction from "expressing themselves", and at worst as being beneath them.

Of course, I'm not a writer (which is something else I learned from participating in workshops), I'm a reader. If you want to be a teacher of creative writing, by all means proceed with getting an MFA, which is the appropriate credential for the job you want. Just don't expect people who're mainly readers to want to read much of what you produce. If you want readers, then be a writer, which is something very different.

[SnakesCatLady]

I think it was Stephen King who once wrote: (paraphrased) "writers don't write because they want to write. Writers write because they can't not write."

Will you continue to write if you are working as a librarian?

Do you feel a MFA has anything to offer you as a writer?

I think you just need to write, and maybe start with a small press to get published. I don't want some MFA program, or big editor, to edit the you out of your writing.

In other words, what WhyNot said.

Aside: the Cottonmouths are in the playoffs - you need to get down here for a game.

[Sattua]

My tendency is to say "no," also. I'm highly suspicious of the whole arts-in-academics thing and would hate to see your style be crushed by jealous nobodies; if that didn't happen, I'd just hate to see you be kicked around as a grad student. You're too old and worth too much to put up with that crap. Those who can, do, and those who can't, teach... right? Well, you can. So do.

Of course, you know the situation much better than I do, and you're the one who has to live with the decisions. Maybe getting out of the library is really what you need.

Actually, all you need is a publisher.

ETA: Do you pass things that you write around to people who have a good eye for good literature, to get technical feedback? While I dislike the idea of teaching people how to create art, I agree with earlier responses that the best way to improve one's writing is to A) read good writing, and B) get constructive criticism. I, for one, would be thrilled to read and edit things for you.

[romansperson]

The only compelling reason to get an MFA in Creative Writing is to get a job teaching Creative Writing. If you want to be a writer, your time would be better spent writing, and re-writing, and re-writing.

I heartily agree. No program in the world is going to make you a better writer. Practice will.

Mind you, my degree is in journalism and not creative writing, but the only thing that made me a better writer was doing the job, over and over.

[RealityChuck]

I got an M.A. in writing (at U of Albany, which also has a Doctor of Arts program, but no MFA). Was it useful? Somewhat. I had already had some things published at that point, but it taught me some new things (not necessarily about the writing per se, but general knowledge).

It didn't help me become a better writer, but having the degree got me my current job as well as writing jobs at local colleges before that. In the long run, it was a good investment.

Just beware the phonies.

[fuffle]

I was always skeptical myself of the MFA. I now have a friend who is getting hers and we've had a lot of discussions of the "is it worth it?" type. She's of the opinion that a lot of her workshop classes have been worthwhile, since they force her to work on specific aspects of her writing, like character, suspense, pacing, what have you. These are things, she feels, that are a lot easier to study and practice in a school setting than just on your own at night--for years she could never quite squeeze out enough time after work to really get any real writing done. For her the loans are worth it just to be able to really focus.

She also is happy to be part of a network of writers who can point her toward good editors/publishers, who can give real advice based on actual experience, &c. She is also practical in that she knows she's probably never going to make a living off of her writing, and so would like to work as a writing teacher. To do that, you need the degree and the teaching fellowships on your resume. Even my personal favorite author, David Foster Wallace, still works as a writing teacher after publishing 17 billion pages.

Personally, I still think it's a pointless degree in a way--schooling can't turn a bad writer into a good one. On the other hand, couldn't the same be said of any degree? A degree doesn't a bad lawyer into a good one, for example.

Keep in mind you can also follow the money--you could start with the funded program and apply for a transfer to your name school the next year. I know someone who did exactly this, and wound up getting much funding that way than trying to start out at the prestigious school.

I, like many others, have been following your writing here on the Dope, and you're pretty darn good. You have the ability and you already have a unique style. Your potential is great, and so I'm of the opinion that if writing is your dream, go for it! It's just a couple of years out the workforce, and money always comes around eventually. I firmly believe that people with gifts have the responsibility--nay, the duty! to share that gift with the world. While I'm sure you're a terrific librarian, you're also a gifted writer. Do it!

Also I think you should do it because that frees up one more librarian job for me. I need one! :)

[Millit the Frail]

I'd say that it's not worth it for you. My husband is just finishing his up, and the only real reason it's been worthwhile is for the Master's degree that allows him to teach (providing he can get published). You've already got a Master's--one that assures you a pretty good job, at that. I've actually met a few people who got the MFA, realized it's not doing them much good without any solid publication credits, and went on to get an MLS so that they could find a decent job.

The MFA experience is pretty frustrating, also. Workshops are agonizing, as far as I can tell--there's a definite push to conform, and so little time is spent on any one student's piece that many of your fellow students don't have the time and energy to "get it." My husband writes experimental-type stuff (not pretentious, hard-to-read crap, just nontraditional forms and structures), and he has a very hard time getting people to even give him a chance in workshops.

And if you think you'll come out of this with a Book (ie something that sits on the shelf at Borders), think again! Many students don't even put together something publishable for their thesis projects. There's so much reading (novels for literature class, endless revisions of other students' work that you have to critique) that it's extremely hard to come out of the program with something that's essentially finished unless you really push yourself. My husband's aiming to have an agent by the time he graduates, but he's one of a handful who can say that. Lots of his friends who graduated a year ago haven't sold (or even finished) a manuscript yet and are either temping or working in some unrelated field. I've learned not to buy into this idea of some people being "compelled to write..." everyone has a breaking point, and a few years of grinding it out and never getting anything back turns most people back to jobs that actually make money.

Sorry I don't have much positive stuff to say...I don't regret him going into the MFA program, but it's not exactly "living the writer's dream," as some would have you believe. You can certainly get your book published and "live the dream" without the MFA, and without a load of debt on your shoulders, you'll be in a much better place to enjoy it. Best of luck!

[Millit the Frail]

Actually, I sound very negative there and would like to add a few things.

An MFA program that's a good fit for YOU is the single most important criteria for choosing where to go. Spending two years with people who don't even agree with your basic ideas will be a waste of time. And you will possibly spiral into a deep depression. It happens. So choose carefully!

Also, if you want to teach writing, as I said, getting published is the most important thing. But the MFA will certainly give you a huge leg up. And it is a great way to make friends and contacts.

Lastly, I can send you a link to my husband's website. It may be helpful to look over his blog (for thoughts on his program) or check out what he's been doing for his thesis or even email him for thoughts/support. He's at the New School. I don't know where you're considering, but if, by chance, New School is one of them, you'll probably be interested in hitting him up for info. :)

[fessie]

Do it! Do It Do It!!!

For one thing, you might develop the professional connections you need to turn writing into a profession. I have a friend whose MFA led to a very lucrative career (as a technical writer, but she wouldn't have gotten there without the people she met).

For another, I think there IS real value to "critiques" (assuming an MFA in creative writing is similar to one in fine art). Yes, the way to improve is to do it --- but there are also skills to polish and ways to stretch yourself, limits to push and shortcomings to face. Knowledgeable criticism can really help.

Artistically, there's nothing quite like being immersed in the company of people who've taken the leap into a profession, as opposed to casting from the shore.

You're good. You owe it to yourself. Life's short. Do it!

[Harriet the Spry]

Another option to consider is getting a position in an academic library (if that's not already where you are) and using the tuition waiver to take the classes you feel will help you. Obviously not all academic library jobs will have tuition waivers (but tons do) and not all campuses will offer classes you want to take, but you could probably find one that does both. This keeps you out of debt and out of classes that are focusing on something that is not useful to you. Downside - you will be busy working full-time plus taking a class and writing.

[susan]

I have a master's in writing. I learned little from my instructors, though I had some good conversations with them. I did have time to write, and the degree did qualify me for some teaching work I wouldn't have had otherwise. I enjoyed myself and emerged not owing any money for that degree.

[Leviosaurus]

I think you really need to sit down and ask yourself what you want to be doing ten years from now. Worst case, assume your book fails to bring you any great compensation (it's inconceivable that it won't be a bestseller of course... so for the purposees of this exercise we'll assume that your pool boy stole your credit card and spent all your earnings.) Do you want to teach creative writing? Do you mind being in debt and living on a teacher's salary? What exactly do you feel you're lacking that this MFA will provide?

I've expressed support of your MFA quest in the past. If you choose to bag this approach and follow some other path to authordom, that makes sense as well. You're in an awfully good place in life where you don't have to struggle so much. Taking this on might well put you back into survival mode. (Of course you know you can hack that, so it's nothing to be afraid of.) Do the rewards justify the risks?

On the other hand, the best art comes from struggle, right? Heck, you might consider the Jack London route - go to Alaska and learn to write on the frontier.

[elfkin477]

Read Donald Hall's essay Poetry and Ambition (http://www.poets.org/viewmedia.php/prmMID/16915). Yes, it's about poetry, not fiction, but most of his comments about MFA programs are valid either way. I like Donald Hall. He's a pretty nice guy, and friends with some of my former professors. He pretty much told one of my classes that the only way you'll make any money with a writing degree is with one in journalism...which will only teach you bad writing. As you can imagine from rackensack's site, he wasn't at all enthusatic about creative writing classes when the topic arose.

That aside, the only person I know well with a masters in creative writing hated the program and said he didn't learn a thing about writing that he didn't know as an undergrad.

[Key Lime Guy]

Read Donald Hall's essay Poetry and Ambition (http://www.poets.org/viewmedia.php/prmMID/16915). Yes, it's about poetry, not fiction, but most of his comments about MFA programs are valid either way.


Thanks for the link. Posts like this are why I'm a Doper.

[Sampiro]

I'm bumping this to say "apologies for not responding to my own OP" and "Thanks to those who did". And to update: My tally stands at the two acceptances and one waitlist and six rejections (sigh- a bit ego deflating but not really as 1) I'm the first to admit my writing isn't what one would call literary and 2) the average admissions/acceptance rate at these institutions is well under 5%. One had very low funding, the other one is in NC and will probably also as the state legislature there has (quite understandably) reduced the number of out-of-state tuition waivers public institutions can grant and this one will probably be affected I'm told. So, in any case, I've declined both offers. If the waitlist program comes through- it has excellent funding- then I'll consider it but currently I'm just not feelin' it. For one thing, it's at the University of Alabama where I've lived already as a grad student and for whom I was employed for a couple of years and just frankly I don't have any desire to spend three more years of my life there so it's Jackie Mason to my Steve Martin in The Jerk: "See the world. Me you've seen already."

Thanks to all who responded.

[Sampiro]

Somehow lost the conclusion in pasting:

Being a librarian for me is rather like being a partner in a passionless marriage, but I don't mean that as an insult. It's pleasant, we respect each other, occasionally I can mount her without picturing Orlando Bloom and Matthew McConaughey wrestling nekkid in a wading pool of olive oil, and for when I can't there's pleasant conversation, enjoyed comfortable silences, shared interests, and fantasies of Orlando Bloom and Matthew McConaughey wrestling nekkid in a wading pool of olive oil to tide me over. That's really much better than being in a passionate relationship with a bipolar Real World/Road Rules alum where the sex is great but you keep a lawyer on speed dial and don't look in the backpack he keeps in the closet, especially considering I have unembarassedly bourgeois comfort level needs and expectations.

Anyway, thanks for all input,
J

[Leviosaurus]

Sorry this isn't working out the way you intended it to, Sampiro. I think this is excellent proof of the complete irrelevance of these programs - they obviously have a different set of priorities than most of us. It'd be painful to have to re-adjust to fit some less creative worldview. I've always been doubtful that these programs are really at all successful in generating successful writers, and have suspected that they're more geared towards crushing the talent out of aspiring ones.

So don't let it get you down. I'm a pretty well read person, enjoy sitting back and taking in the classics, both highbrow and low, and I'd rather read your stuff than most anything available. I know I'm not the only one here who feels that way, too.

[Sequent]

Not much to contribute that hasn't already been said, except that before you make any decisions, you should drop whatever you're doing and read John Gardner's On Becoming a Novelist (even if you're not planning on writing novels). Seriously. Get up from the computer and go get it now.

[PharmBoy]

I think you could still get that retail job at Bed, Bath and Beyond even without the MFA, and you'd be able to save on tuition.

Because, face facts, it's a useless degree which will result in virtually guaranteed under-employment coupled with staggering student loans.

One day, this nation's colleges and universities are going to be taken to task for offering useless degrees for staggering sums of money...

[Sampiro]

I think you could still get that retail job at Bed, Bath and Beyond even without the MFA, and you'd be able to save on tuition.

That's ultimately my thought as well. For FAR less money I could just take an unpaid leave of absence in summer when it's slow and do nothing but write.

Plus, I've borrowed (through Interlibrary Loan) some of the books written by the professors at some of the universities I applied to and--- there's a reason they weren't bestsellers. They're mechanically well-written, but just... blah, and that's not sour grapes. I think in the MFA programs it's probably more true than in any other that "those who can't teach". (Several acting teachers have won Oscars [Lee Strasburg, John Houseman] or had great film careers [Jeff Corey, Howard Gould], but most of the really successful writers who've been teachers [King, Vonnegut, etc.] did so after they were successful writers- no idea why as I'd think their writing would pay a helluva lot more- maybe the health insurance.)

[DeadlyAccurate]

Nathan Bransford (an agent at Curtis Brown) just blogged (http://nathanbransford.blogspot.com/2007/04/you-tell-me-how-do-you-feel-about.html) about this today.

[Sampiro]

Here's a really long story about why I really turned had major second thoughts about the decision (even before being rejected several places, so it really turned out rather well :cool: ). I promise I will show relevance.
---------------------

I recently wrote the first draft of a story entitled And That's Why I Flunked Freshmen Economics. It's an autobiographical story that involves 100% true elements that I would never have written about while my mother was alive. One scene, which I-swear-to-Gawd-happened, involves my mother, ca. 1985, broke and knowing her house was in danger of foreclosure and depressed for many reasons [not least of which was a major bipolar disorder], walking through a grocery store looking at pesticides and poisons trying to decide which one that's under $4 (the amount of money she can spend) would be most fatal. The poisons not for her, though, it's for a 70 year old woman, and she casually asks me (like Magda Goebbels at a Spring '45 Garden Party) "You think it'd be better if I gave it to her in a milkshake or if I just told her to drink it straight and what it was for?" It was an act of, if not love, then at least extreme (and perhaps fucked up) compassion.

My 70 year old great-aunt, Lucy, was committed to a snakepit of a mental hospital when she was in her late 20s. Nobody is quite sure why, but the papers were signed by the town doctor, who was also her father, and who was by all accounts a total bastard. I know from her own sparse comments and official records that while there she was lobotomized, she was punished by being locked in a room with a retarded hermaphrodite, she endured shock treatment, she was bathed by being stripped naked and washed with a firehose along with all of the other women in her ward, and there was one psychiatrist to service more than 5,000 patients. God alone knows what else she's endured: it's a matter of documented fact that some female patients were repeatedly raped, physical abuse was commonplace, sterilization was sometimes practiced (this was a decade after Carrie Buck (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carrie_Buck) in a family where severe mental illness can be documented well before the Civil War).
She was released around 1972 during a cleanup begun by Governor Lurleen Wallace a few years before. By the time I knew her she was extremely quiet and, regardless of what she was like in the 1930s when she was taken there, quite deranged. She was, like my grandmother, who she lived with,absolutely filthy, she was prone to exhibitionism (had NO modesty- I used to earn money from my father by "Lucy Wrangling", which meant going to get her out of the road when she was walking around naked or exposed and making sure she was "put up" when he was planning to bring colleagues home), and she could be an ordeal and embarassment. She was also one of the gentlest souls on Earth= seeing her with her kittens would break your heart- and she loved to giggle. I used to love making her laugh or when I could get her to dance with me.

Lucy was not afraid of my grandmother (no mean feat- the woman was evil and horrifying), snakes, death, or anything else except for one thing: going back to Bryce Hospital. My grandmother would use it to control her: "You do what I tell you or you'll be back in the wards tonight!" (the only time I heard my father use misogynist expletives directly aimed at his mother were when she said something like that in his presence- one of his few soft spots was for Lucy, largely because when he was a boy he'd accompanied her to Bryce). She was mortally horrified, she would cry loudly at the mere thought of having to go back.

In 1985 my Grandmother had a stroke and had to be sent to a nursing home. My mother and I brought Lucy her meals (she could not cook) and saw to her needs, etc., and then a completely slanderous anonymous complaint by a busybody neighbor (who claimed "Lucy's walking from house to house begging for food"- the only occupied house in walking distance to her was ours) caused Human Resources to become involved. Caring for her was a burden, but the reason we did it was because we knew that Lucy was not likely to be sent to a nursing home if we asked for help; she would be sent back to Bryce. Sure enough, that was the recommendation of the first social worker. Lucy went into hysterics, pitiful wailing, and my mother told her "I swear to you- on my life- you will never go back to Bryce Hospital." (My mother was no relation to Lucy save by marriage, and her husband being dead even that was gone.)

Okay, back to the grocery store. My mother just casually asked about the milkshake. She settles on a rat poison that has the strongest warning, then sends me to get chocolate syrup, milk, and ice cream. I'm horrified but... frankly I'd rather see Lucy die than returned to Bryce myself. We're almost broke, I repeat, so I by habit pick up the $.50 box of ice milk, and my mother sends me back: "This is Lucy's last milkshake. Get real ice cream. Not the store brand either, the best they have."
On the way home my mother, who is bothered by what she's planning "but I have never broken a solemn promise", paraphrases (knowingly) Scarlett O'Hara: "Well, I guess I've done murder now... I'll think about that tomorrow." A little later: "I'll make some extra milkshake we can all have some. I'm craving something sweet." When I express horror she says "Oh baby... ours will be just milkshake of course!" then later "Unless you want to make a suicide pact with me, which might not be a terrible idea. We'll ask the Ouija board later."

Okay, you get the idea. I'll go ahead and tell you now Lucy didn't have to be poisoned and didn't go back to Bryce (thanks to a WONDERFUL WONDERFUL WONDERFUL woman named Ruth Speaks who I will name by name because she's dead now and did such a favor by bending rules that.... but anyway- the milkshake was never made, but I did flunk my Economics test because of this.

So, there's a lot of VERY VERY VERY DARK and surreal humor in this one, because there was in the situation. Even my mother and I laughed about it in later years (not uncomfortable laughter I might add, but laughed our asses off a couple of times). There are even some flat out belly laughs in it if I say so myself- Lucy's reaction to being "beautified" with lipstick and powder for a court appearance, me and my mother "keeping her sane" during said court appearance, my motehr singing a lullaby to my grandmother [who my mother hated with a passion and with reason] at the beginning of the story and forgetting the words, and the whole lackadaisical "You think she'd like a strawberry shake better?" attitude about the special milkshake. It's a long story with a lot of humor.

So, the reason I mention this:

I sent excerpts of the first draft fo this story to a friend of mine who's a professor of creative writing at a school I didn't apply to (MFA) and offered to "critique it as a professor" while I was applying for the programs. Since she decided she cannot critique my work objectively, she gave it to a friend who works at another school where I did apply- I won't identify the school other than to say it's a writer's workshop in a University in Iowa City. Here's what the friend, an actual MFA professor, wrote back:

This is one of the cruelest, most disturbing things I've ever read and it is all due to the humor. It would work fine- excellently even- as a serious piece, but I refuse to laugh at such a sinister plto [sic] and do not appreciate anyone who would. This is horror, not light comedy.

This blew me away. There are a thousand criticisms I'd take with my style, my way too verbose nature, structure, etc., but HUMOR? You want me to take out humor? Rest assured- I lived through this- it WAS horror- but it was also funny as hell, even at the time it was morbidly funny and I remember wishing I had somebody to share it with.

Now, this is one professor, but since then I've talked to others and they say that other than those who specialize in humor, most don't respect it being used more than moderately. It's not "literary" as a rule, and the folks seem believe that

1- a book or story with "funny parts" is, by definition, light
2- a book or story that's morbidly serious is, by definition, deep

Must run, will conclude in far shorter nature.

[DeadlyAccurate]

Remember that one person's opinion is just that. You write very well, and I enjoyed your milkshake story. It was both humorous and sad, heartwarming and heartbreaking.

By the way, I saw someone mention your name once (in a positive light) in a comment on Miss Snark's blog.

[Sampiro]

Conclusion, in far shorter nature:

The same professor also referred to the work (which perhaps she didn't realize was autobiographical, or perhaps she did, who knows) as "obsessed with the grotesque" and to my mother as "a cheerful murderer".

Okay, I can definitely see Lucy as a grotesque, bless her heart. My mother as cheerful murderer- that pissed me off a bit. I don't canonize the dead- my mother was capable and culpable of really bad things; this just wasn't one of them. There was nothing even slightly comic about her decision to poison my aunt, she wasn't remotely cheerful- she may even be said to be deranged, though it seemed a good idea at the time- and I wasn't sure if I was going to allow it or not at the time, I honestly couldn't decide. But while technically it would have been murder ("unlawful and intentional killing of another") it was- crazy as it sounds- for the most charitable of motives. It would have been a mercy killing- Lucy would rather have died than go back to Bryce, no question about it, and my mother, like me, could not bear the impotence of not being able to help a woman neither of us could truly say we loved but whom both of us cared about, pitied, who had never done any living person harm (save for embarassment and that not maliciously), and the thoughts of being in our own (foreclosed on) home thinking of what hell Lucy was going through as she went through those antebellum gates of the state hospital again (sanitized from when she was there before but still the equivalent still of returning to Auschwitz to a concentration camp survivor) were psychological torture. There was nothing funny about that particular situation.

But Lucy singing in French a song she learned 60 years before as a social worker bathed her and interrupting it long enough to say "Was my left tit now", or my mom telling a high school graduate probate judge who ran on an anti-evolution platform (for a job that has nothing whatever to do with evolution or science education) and believed that mental illness was caused by demonic possession, that "I can put my hand on a Bible and tell you in good conscience that woman's mind is as good as yours" all as Lucy is downstairs saying, very loudly, "I gotta piss... I gotta piss... I gotta piss... I gotta piss... take me to where I might piss... take me to where I might piss... take me to where I might piss...take me to where I might piss..." (she always repeated herself in 4's when nervous) just downstairs and audible from his waiting room (where I could hear both the judge but he couldn't hear Lucy)- all this was funny as hell even at the time, in a sick sort of way, and while it could be very easily made uniformly horrifying, I think the humor makes it better and a lot more palatable. Depressing people is easy, making them laugh is a lot harder- that's why Charlie Chaplin's considered a god while Camille is largely forgotten.

Now, the fact that the excerpts of the story ran 25 pages, THAT I could take criticism over.

So the point is, always brush your teeth as often as you can and floss them once in a while, preferably while wearing your seatbelt and a condom. That's what makes you a good American. And I'm not getting a M.F.A..

[Leviosaurus]

The most horrifying and grotesque thing I've read in any of your posts is the quote from that professor.

Your humor is your style. You deal with tragedy through humor. If Professor Schmuck has no sense of humor, he's the last person you should be learning from. Good move, Sampiro.

[Canadiangirl]

You need to write a book about your stories. Your humour is what makes it. That was one person's opinion, certainly not of anyone's on the Dope who has read your stories, I'm sure.

[Typo Knig]

Sampiro,

Comments like the one you quoted from the Lit Prof are exactly why you should keep your mfa out of an MFA program. You already know how to write, what you need is an agent. And perhaps an editor. Definitely an agent. I love the free samples, but now that you've got me hooked on your writing it's time to make me pay.

In the news today was a mention or two of the passing of a writer of some minor renown you might have heard of, one Kurt Vonnegut. He made his grotesque experiences in WWII accessible by telling them humorously. Tonight on no less a forum than PBS' NewsHour, he was compared to Twain (repeatedly), and also to Swift. "Can't take it seriously because it's funny"?! Academic hell is too good for the LitJerk.

Oh, and your story about the milkshake would never work told seriously. Never. I think you know this. I wonder if LitJerk has ever read anything before. :rolleyes: