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Mtgman

05-14-2007, 01:16 PM

Pleonast, the more I think about it the more I think the Detective is going to cause you a lot of grief(the witches too, but to a lesser extent). The only situation where they would work as designed is in a game with no protective roles. Here's two extreme examples of gameplay illustrating what I think the problem is.

Day 2, after the first night kills have happened, assuming the detective and GAs didn't die.

Player 1 - "I'm the detective. I have just received a reply to my PM from the GM saying that Player 5 was involved in last night's killing. I call on the town to lynch this person and for the GA's to defend me tonight so we can continue eliminating scum."

Player 2 - "Liar! I'm the detective. I have just received a reply to my PM from the GM saying that Player 7 was involved in last night's killing. I call on the town to lynch this person and for the GA's to defend me tonight so we can continue eliminating scum."

Player 1 - "We can't both be the detective, so town you now have to choose. Lynch me and you lose your real detective(and you won't have any way of knowing this until my role becomes public). So lynch the person I said to lynch, protect me this night, and on the following day you'll get confirmation that I was telling the truth and I'll have another name for you."

Player 2 - "What he said, but without all the lying."

Town lynches Player 2.

Night falls - Player 5 is lunched.

Day dawns - Player 2 was the detective.

Player 1 - "Mwah ha ha! You're screwed now townies."

If it goes the other way, then the wolves are screwed. Either way I think the game is broken after the first round or two.

Enjoy,
Steven

Pleonast

05-14-2007, 01:22 PM

Re: the Cabal. Who are thier predators? Who is going after them? The witches? The witches care more about their own protection than they do about killing Cabalists. By protecting themselves they can both defeat the Cabal and save their own lives. The wolves don't care about them much, if any, more than they would about standard Masons. They can kill them at any time and the Cabal has no investigation powers to threaten the wolves. It's this lack of natural predators that make me think the Cabal will do well with a minimum of effort.

As for the undead, let me make sure I understand the role. I thought there would be some players who had the role of "vanilla undead", is that accurate? If so that's where my "unfun" comments apply. They can't do anything to help their team except use their votes/voices to deflect attention away from the Vamp and Necro(assuming they can figure out who they are). Out of all your roles this faction was the most confusing to me. With your active help in the thread as a GM you may be able to resolve a lot of these issues, but be prepared for a lot of questions and some difficulty determining strategy for this group.

Enjoy,
StevenThere are no plain Undead. All roles are explained in my link (http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dwp82xq_1fmqvzp). The Vampire(s) kills to help the Necromancer, who turns bodies into Zombies. Both have to make active decisions about how to use their powers. Thinking about it, you're probably confused about my (probably poor) formatting: SIDES are listed thus, with an overview and victory conditions. Roles are listed afterwards.

The Cabal have the interesting problem of having to win without any special powers, other than the ability to communicate freely among themselves. The Wolves/Undead won't be searching for them as much as the Witches/Detective, but killing them does advance their victory condition. The Cabal wants to kill Wolves/Undead as much as the Town, so will be helping the Town to some extent. Lurking doesn't help the Cabal; another side will win. The Witches merely need to survive for the Town to prevent Cabal from winning. The Cabal has to make sure they don't.

Let me think some more about the Witches and Detectives before I respond in detail about them. You may be right; they're definitely tricky to balance.

On preview, you've posted more. I'll respond after I get some actual work done. :p

Pleonast

05-14-2007, 02:13 PM

(Gah, stupid IE lost my message. Let's try again.)

When the Detective claims, the Town and Wolves/Undead will be in a race of the Town killing scum vs the the scum trying to hit the Witches. The Wolves will probably lose, but the Undead will win. The Detective can't find the Necromancer, who will be accumulating one Zombie most nights. The Undead will win about the same time the Wolves and Vampire(s) are killed.

The only way the Town can win the killing spree is if the Necromancer is discovered/killed. Very risky. And if one of the Witches is killed (with three of them, it's a definitely possibility), they'll have to give up investigations in order to keep protecting the Detective.

A Witch can claim early to help direct the Town, but that'll lead to a similar play-out, except at a slower pace since the Witches will end up investigating some Townies.

The Town needs to juggle killing Wolves vs finding the Necromancer.

Mtgman (and Chronos, too), if you can keep it a secret, I'd be happy to PM/email you the specific numbers and roles I'm planning on using, so you can see exactly how I'm balancing things.

Chronos

05-14-2007, 02:58 PM

When the Detective claims, the Town and Wolves/Undead will be in a race of the Town killing scum vs the the scum trying to hit the Witches. The Wolves will probably lose, but the Undead will win. The Detective can't find the Necromancer, who will be accumulating one Zombie most nights. The Undead will win about the same time the Wolves and Vampire(s) are killed.I don't know about that... The Detective can't find the Necromancer, but he can and will quickly find the Vampire. After the Vampire is dead, there will probably only be two kills per cycle (the lynch or Vigilante, and the wolves), or less, if the Guardian Angels guess right, one of which will be burried (and the Necromancer doesn't know which). So on average, the Undead will grow by only one per two nights, or slower. Meanwhile, the Witches and the Seer are also investigating, and they can identify the Necro.

As for thinking that the Guardian Angels might be unbalanced, they're almost the same as the Doctor, which is a fairly standard role for these games. The only difference is that your Angels know who each other are. This may not seem to be much difference, but it is: Suppose the Town has two people they want to protect (say, the other two members of the Coven). With ordinary (non-role-claimed) doctors, they can't coordinate any way to guarantee that they'll both be covered. But if the two Angels know each other, then the Coven can say something like "We'll protect Magrat ourselves. Whichever Angel has the name that is earlier in alphabetical order, protect Granny Weatherwax. And the Angel that has the later alphabetical name should protect Nanny Ogg.". You could change this, of course, by removing the power that the Angels know each other.

Mtgman, I'm not sure why the Town would lynch one of the purported Detectives. Couldn't they test just as well, without risking losing the real Detective, by lynching one of the folks the Detectives fingered?

And Pleonast, I'd prefer if you did not send me any privelidged information, just in case I decide to play under your rules.

fluiddruid

05-14-2007, 04:32 PM

Well, at the risk of chiming in, I am working on my own rule set. I wanted something a little bit more complicated, and something that would be less boring and frustrating for vanilla Townspeople. Thus, I give you:

Mafia, a game: The Organization is Hiring
-----------------------------------------

Rumors start to fly about a neighboring town being overrun by the corruption of the Mafia. Despite a lynching bloodbath, they are overrun… and now rumors are flying in Upper Doperville that one of their own has come to this sweet, innocent town to start a new Organization.
Will the town dispose of the scum? Or will the Mafia overrun another simple town?
This is a fairly standard Mafia game, with a twist.

The only Mafia member at the start of the game will be the Boss. The Boss has the capacity to recruit new Mafia members from the Townspeople in the place of a standard night kill. When a player dies, their true role is revealed.

The game will start at Dawn. During the day, the town members will vote for one player to lynch by vote. In the case of ties, there will be a vote-off (24 hours long).

During the night (72 hours), night powers may be used. The Doctor may protect, the Mafia may communicate and recruit or kill (not both), and the Vigilante may kill. Only a kill (and the killed player's role) will be communicated to the Town. Recruits, investigations, and failed kills will not be reported to the Town at large.

Please note that former roles will be revealed. For example, a Capo will be revealed as "Capo / Detective” if he was formerly the Detective. In death, all truths are revealed.

THE TOWNSPEOPLE

The town will be composed at the start of the game of every player but the Boss, and will be divided into the following roles:

- Townspeople. Honest and hardworking, they are trying to oust the Mafia from their beloved town... unless made an offer they can't refuse. Townspeople have no special powers, but, as all players, may cast votes to Lynch. There is at least one Townsperson.

- The Detective: Already aware of the new Mafia connection in his town, the Detective is hard on the lookout for scum. The Detective will always determine the exact current role of those he investigates each night. The only exceptions to this rule are Boss or the Capo, who has a 50% chance to be found out as their true role, and 50% chance to be identified as another randomly determined role (random roll of: Townsperson, Detective, Doctor, Vigilante, Mason, Priest, Bishop, Beat Cop, Police Chief, Soldier, Consigliere, Capo, Hitman, or Boss, excluding his correct role). If the target is being Made that night, he will return their new role, rather than their old role (former roles are not revealed in any case).
The Detective also has the option to forego his investigation and instead study the levels of crime in town. By doing so, he will learn the number of Mafia in the game with 100% accuracy, including any recruitments done that same night. He will also determine whether or not the Capo is in play. There is one Detective.

- The Doctor: Trying to stop the killing, the Doctor interferes with the night happenings. The Doctor may protect any player (including himself) whom he chooses each night. If he protects a player, they are safe from recruitment, night kills, and investigations. There is one Doctor.

- The Vigilante: Fueled with a sense of rage towards the scum, the Vigilante has opted to take the matter into his own hands. He may, at his option, kill one player per night. The Vigilante is a fanatic and cannot be swayed from his course; he cannot be recruited, only killed. If a Vigilante kills a Priest, he is filled with deep shame and regret, and forsakes his Vigilante ways, secretly becoming a Priest himself. There is one Vigilante.

- Mason: Masons know one another, but cannot communicate outside of the game. Masons are devoted to their own order and are difficult to sway; any Mafia recruitment attempt has a 50% chance of failure. There are at least two Masons.

- Priest: A Priest is deeply religious and morally opposed to organized crime. These men of the cloth are devout in their ways, and cannot be recruited by the Mafia. Additionally, a Priest may, once per game, visit a troubled soul (any player) and pray with them all night, preventing any attempts at recruitment by the Mafia (but not a kill). There is at least one Priest at the start of the game.

- The Bishop: The Bishop is like other Priests, but if he prays with a vanilla Townsperson, that person has a 50% chance to convert and become a Priest himself. If the Vigilante night kills the Bishop, he still becomes a Priest. However, power corrupts; the Bishop secretly nurtures ambition for greatness, and he will accept the Capo position if offered. Mafia attempts to recruit him normally fail. There is one Bishop.

- Beat Cop: Working hard to investigate scum, they do so less accurately than the Detective. They will only detect if a player is affiliated with the Town or the Mafia, not a specific role (i.e. Priest, Soldier).

For each Beat Cop that chooses to investigate each night, there is a 20% cumulative chance to all Beat Cops that they will miss the target of their investigation (they will receive no result at all). For example, if there are two Beat Cops attempting investigation on one night, the chance of failure is 40% for each (each Beat Cop getting his own “roll” for failure).

They have a 50% chance to return the Boss, Hit Man, or the Capo as Town if investigated.

The Beat Cop(s) have one advantage over the Detective, however; if they happen to be investigating the target of a night kill or recruitment on a particular night, they will have a 50% chance to witness the event. If a killing, this will reveal the killer's name. If the Beat Cop is witnessing a general Mafia Night Kill, the killer will be identified as the Hit Man if in play, or, if there is no Hit Man, a random Mafia player of the lowest rank in the game at that time. If they witness a making ceremony, they will identify one of the following randomly by name: Boss, Capo, Consigliere. No roles will be revealed, though the Beat Cop will know if the recruitment was blocked. There is at least one Beat Cop at the start of the game.

- Police Chief: The Police Chief has the same powers as other Beat Cops (and counts as a “Beat Cop” for determining failure rates) but, once per game, they may recruit a regular Townsperson (randomly determined from all plain Townspeople) to join the force as a Beat Cop. He may not investigate during that night. He may choose whether or not he wishes to know the new Beat Cop’s name at his discretion when he decides to recruit. The new Beat Cop will not know who recruited him. If he is recruited by the Mafia or killed, this recruitment is lost. There is one Police Chief.

THE MAFIA

Mafia roles, in order of rank from highest to lowest, are as follows: the Boss, the Capo, Consigliere, the Hit Man, and Soldiers.

The Boss: The Boss is the only Mafia player that can recruit. While alive, the Boss has final say regarding recruitment (which will override a night kill vote), though he may of course discuss the recruitment with others. If the Boss is killed, the Mafia may no longer recruit, though they may night kill. The Mafia can only attempt to recruit or night kill each night, not both.

Soldiers: If a normal Townsperson is recruited, he will become a Soldier, except for the first Townsperson recruited will become the Hit Man instead. Soldiers have no special powers.

The Hit Man: The Hit Man is the first regular Townsperson recruited. He may choose any one night kill (but not recruitment) done by the Mafia to be a special hit. This hit cannot be blocked by the Doctor and cannot be witnessed. If blocked, this power cannot be used again.

Consigliere: All other recruitable Town roles (such as Masons or the Doctor) will become Consigliere. For every Consigliere in play, there is a cumulative 5% chance that the Mafia will “discover” a random townsperson’s role during the night, but their original powers are permanently lost.

Capo: Once per game, the Boss can elect to designate a Capo from amongst the ranks of the Town. If the Boss is killed before using this power, it is lost. If the Boss attempts to recruit a Priest or Vigilante as Capo, the ability is blocked and cannot be reused, but the target’s role will be revealed to the Mafia. Recruiting a Capo takes the place of another recruitment or a night kill.

Should the Boss successfully recruit a Capo, the player recruited as a Capo gains powers depending on his original role:

- The Doctor Capo can continue, at his discretion, to protect one player of his choice per night from night kills and investigations.

- The Detective Capo may investigate as normal. However, instead of a failure chance on the Boss or Capo, there is now a failure chance on the Doctor or Vigilante.

- A Beat Cop or Police Chief Capo may investigate, but will only return “Townsperson” or “Power Role” as a response (“Power Role” as all town roles but Townsperson). The Doctor, Vigilante, and Detective have a 50% chance to show incorrectly as “Townsperson”. The global failure rate of Beat Cops and the Police Chief is still in effect regardless of the town or mafia affiliation, though dead players do not count.

- A Mason Capo gains a special power. If the Boss is recruiting another Mason, they can choose to go to the Mason personally and offer the recruitment. If this is done, a block by the Doctor or Priest (if in effect) will fail to block the recruitment, though it still can be witnessed by a Beat Cop. (If so, there is a 100% chance that the Mason-Capo will be identified as the recruiter.)

- The Bishop Capo may reveal a random Priest in play to the Mafia during the night. This power takes the place of a recruitment or night kill. If used more than once, the same Priest can be revealed multiple times. Priests being defended by Doctors, or being prayed with by other Priests, will block this power.

- A Townsperson Capo has no special powers (other than the decreased investigation effectiveness of various other roles against him).

NOTES ON NIGHT POWERS

When someone is killed or recruited during the night, this will not interrupt any of their powers. For example, a Doctor that is killed or recruited during a night will still have his protection in effect throughout the night. A Boss who is night killed but who was recruiting or promoting is still successful. Investigators who are killed will not be given their results, as they are out of the game and the information is useless, but investigators who are recruited during the round they investigate someone will still receive the results of their investigation.

NOTES ON BLOCKING POWERS AND FAILURES

If a power is blocked, neither the blocking party nor the person whose power was blocked will know. They will only know that they were unsuccessful. For example, if the Doctor blocks a night kill, there will be no kill that night, but the Doctor will not know if it was he who blocked the kill. There is no way to determine if a particular event was blocked or failed – the result is the same.

WIN CONDITIONS

The townies (including all power roles) not recruited win if the Mafia are all killed.
The Mafia (including all recruits) win if they outnumber the Town.

Feedback? :) The idea was to do a recruiting game with a lot of blocks and strategy, and a lot of relatively low-value roles but that were still "something interesting".

Pleonast

05-14-2007, 05:29 PM

I don't know about that... The Detective can't find the Necromancer, but he can and will quickly find the Vampire. After the Vampire is dead, there will probably only be two kills per cycle (the lynch or Vigilante, and the wolves), or less, if the Guardian Angels guess right, one of which will be burried (and the Necromancer doesn't know which). So on average, the Undead will grow by only one per two nights, or slower. Meanwhile, the Witches and the Seer are also investigating, and they can identify the Necro.Argh, you're right about this, at least the way I originally envisioned the Vicar. My original description doesn't make this clear, but I had intended that the Vicar could bless the lynchee or any previous dead. The way to fix the problem is not allow the Vicar to bless the lynchee the same day he's lynched. That let's the Necromancer get a guaranteed Zombie every night, unless the Town does not lynch. It restores the game balance, but changes the dynamics of the Vicar's choices.As for thinking that the Guardian Angels might be unbalanced, they're almost the same as the Doctor, which is a fairly standard role for these games. The only difference is that your Angels know who each other are. This may not seem to be much difference, but it is: Suppose the Town has two people they want to protect (say, the other two members of the Coven). With ordinary (non-role-claimed) doctors, they can't coordinate any way to guarantee that they'll both be covered. But if the two Angels know each other, then the Coven can say something like "We'll protect Magrat ourselves. Whichever Angel has the name that is earlier in alphabetical order, protect Granny Weatherwax. And the Angel that has the later alphabetical name should protect Nanny Ogg.". You could change this, of course, by removing the power that the Angels know each other.I like not allowing the GAs to protect themselves, but letting them know who each other are. That let's them start out protecting each other, but then gives them the problem of who protects who once someone else claims. Without Witches they're fine, but the combination of both roles in the same game is too powerful. Since I think the Witches are the more interesting role (IMHO), I've decided to keep them.

Thanks for the help again, Chronos, and Mtgman! Consider spaces in my game reserved for you if want them.

The brings to mind my idea for allocating spaces. Have a set deadline from the time of the game's announcement (maybe 48 hours) where anyone interested request a spot. Once the time is up, do a random draw of the needed players (25 in my case) out of everyone who expressed an interest. That seems a fair way. Thoughts?

fluiddruid: nice ruleset. I'm wondering if the Mafia should always recruit, never kill. A successful recruitment gives them a +2 advantage (minus to other side, plus to theirs) versus only +1 for a kill (minus to the other side). I guess at some point, recruitment will fail often enough that it's better to kill. But by that point, will the Mafia have too big a numbers advantage? You'll have to do some detailed scenario playthroughs to check your game balance.

Chronos

05-14-2007, 06:00 PM

Personally, I don't like variants with recruitment, since it opens up the possibility that a player will want to be recruited, and play towards that end. I don't like encouraging folks to backstab their own team.

Argh, you're right about this, at least the way I originally envisioned the Vicar. My original description doesn't make this clear, but I had intended that the Vicar could bless the lynchee or any previous dead. The way to fix the problem is not allow the Vicar to bless the lynchee the same day he's lynched. That let's the Necromancer get a guaranteed Zombie every night, unless the Town does not lynch. It restores the game balance, but changes the dynamics of the Vicar's choices.Eh, if the Town is getting reliable Detective information, they might as well just let the Vigilante handle the details. And if you forbid the Vicar from burrying a fresh kill, then the Vicar's power is irrelevant, until such time as the Town stops lynching. If there's a lynch every night, then there's no strategy or luck required for the Necromancer; he just picks the one he knows wasn't burried, and he doesn't worry that some of the old bodies are getting burried, because he'll probably never catch up on his backlog anyway.

While we're on the subject, what happens if the Vicar and the Necromancer target the same corpse on the same night? Whichever one PMs first gets it?

Mtgman

05-14-2007, 06:02 PM

Mtgman, I'm not sure why the Town would lynch one of the purported Detectives. Couldn't they test just as well, without risking losing the real Detective, by lynching one of the folks the Detectives fingered?It's an option, my example outcomes weren't meant to be comprehensive. I was trying to point up the dangers of having a detective who is so accurate the scum will be willing to take extra measures, like counteclaiming, to get to him. Losing the detective due to a false counterclaim by scum would be a big loss in this game. If they decide to trust all the detective claims, pending verification, then they have to protect all the possible detectives. Remember that the scum know which of the two is only pretending to be a detective. So if they lynch players 5 or 7 then they have to wait a night(during which the real detective could be lunched because the GA or witches could be protecting the wrong one) to find out which side 5 or 7 was on, then another night(again maybe losing the real detective) to see if he was scum or the vig/magician/warlock. And if the scum is really clever they'll finger the same guy the detective did. They could even beat him to it because they know who the hitman they sent out the previous night was. They end up losing two wolves this way(one they were going to lose anyway because he was fingered by the real detective) and the second as the sacrificial lamb doing the counterclaiming. Then they lunch the real detective while the protector role(s) are in doubt. The protectors can't openly communicate to coordinate protection because that would give them away. I think the uber-detective is going to be a headache for the GM and players, and possibly give the game to the undead.

I considered making a similar role myself, the Father Confessor. Each night the Father Confessor is visited by a member of the Mafia, possibly chosen at random with repeats allowed, who unburdens his soul about the evil he has done. So the Father Confessor collects names of the scum over the course of the game. He can lay low and then reveal all he knows at once, giving the town a huge advantage, provided they believe his claims. Once he tells what he knows he has to step down from his post and go into exile for breaking his sacred covenant to keep things said in confession secret. So the town gets a list of scum, but their numbers are ipso facto reduced by one(which could give the scum victory if the Father Confessor waits too long). Also he's not allowed to post in the thread again. No defending his list, nothing.

Ultimately I've decided not to use the Father Confessor because I think the role is too powerful and can be a game breaker.And Pleonast, I'd prefer if you did not send me any privelidged information, just in case I decide to play under your rules.I, on the other hand, am very unlikely to play in the games. I've got a full plate at the moment with other priorities. So reviewing your plans works fine for me.

Enjoy,
Steven

Mtgman

05-14-2007, 06:12 PM

Oh, I see our confusion over the undead role Pleonast, in your descriptions you had the Town side and role coded the same way you have the Undead side and role coded, so I thought, since there are surely vanilla townies, that there would be vanilla undead too.

Enjoy,
Steven

Pleonast

05-14-2007, 07:29 PM

While we're on the subject, what happens if the Vicar and the Necromancer target the same corpse on the same night? Whichever one PMs first gets it?No, the Vicar buries during the day.If there's a lynch every night, then there's no strategy or luck required for the Necromancer; he just picks the one he knows wasn't burried, and he doesn't worry that some of the old bodies are getting burried, because he'll probably never catch up on his backlog anyway.Yeah, it makes the Necromancer's strategy very simple at the beginning. It'll be the midgame (which is the Necro's endgame) that requires more thought.Oh, I see our confusion over the undead role Pleonast, in your descriptions you had the Town side and role coded the same way you have the Undead side and role coded, so I thought, since there are surely vanilla townies, that there would be vanilla undead too.No, no vanilla townies either. :p

I'll send you details later tonight.

Pleonast

05-14-2007, 09:16 PM

Wow, Queuing is really coming on strong. Come one, Town, lynch him already. :)

Santo Rugger

05-14-2007, 10:17 PM

<snip>No, no vanilla townies either. :p

<snip>

Remember NAF's advice about having at least 1/2 the town be vanilla townies?

I just think it's way too complicated, and even with all the explainations, I don't quite get it. Maybe I'm not as bright as the average doper, but I doubt the reason. No offence.

Santo Rugger

05-14-2007, 10:23 PM

Millit the Frail

05-14-2007, 10:41 PM

Remember NAF's advice about having at least 1/2 the town be vanilla townies?

I just think it's way too complicated, and even with all the explanations, I don't quite get it. Maybe I'm not as bright as the average doper, but I doubt the reason. No offence.

I have to agree. I think that there comes a point where the game is more frustrating than fun, and having too many possibilities to sort out makes things more a matter of luck than of reasoning and strategy. I'm in Mafia 3, and it's incredibly disorienting even with the few roles we have in play!

A pure, simple game should be enough to satisfy a real strategist. Kind of like chess. A few rules to learn, but a mind-boggling number of possible moves.

Pleonast

05-15-2007, 12:16 AM

Remember NAF's advice about having at least 1/2 the town be vanilla townies?

I just think it's way too complicated, and even with all the explainations, I don't quite get it. Maybe I'm not as bright as the average doper, but I doubt the reason. No offence.

Not to mention all the questions you're going to get during the game, potentially exposing roles of those asking questions, and/or having to deal with a massive ammount of email/PMs, which may or not be considered "fair".Yes, I've kept in mind NAF's advice. Many of the Town roles are near-vanilla (Freemason, Coroner, Scotsman, Warlock, Magician, Vicar), with marginally useful, but still potentially fun, roles.

Although it seems complicated, it's not too bad, I think. For the Town to win, it needs to kill all the Undead and Wolves, while preserving at least two of the Witches. For the Undead to win, the Necromancer needs to stay alive until he has enough zombies. For the Wolves, they need to get a majority by killing enough of the others. The Cabal needs to play the other sides against each other and survive.

I'm sure there'll be a lot of questions about roles, PM/emails can handle that.

Millit, I think the frustration will be less than you think because every role has something to do besides voting to lynch. Having only 25 players will help. I think it'll be fun. Proof is in the pudding, so we'll see. :D

Chronos

05-15-2007, 01:26 AM

Y'know, I think that Lakai might just get away with it. He's now strawmanning the reason he was suspected as just being because he and brewha kept fingering each other (which is not that strong a reason). If the true Townies (whoever they are) are tired enough, they just might not remember the real reason.

More on Pleonast's game: I'm not sure what the Cabal are supposed to do. They have to get rid of the witches to win, but they have no means of doing so. Sure, they can try to sway the lynches, but if a Witch is about to get lynched, she'll role-claim, and she'll probably be able to prove her claim to the satisfaction of the majority without the other two needing to claim. Alternately, the Cabal could try to communicate the Witches' identities to the Vampire or Wolves, who also want to get rid of them, but how are they going to do that, without also communicating that same information to the protectors? And in either case, this assumes that they can even figure out who the witches are. They don't have any investigative capability, and they're at a dual disadvantage compared to the scum in a normal, two-faction game. First of all, the Mafia know that anyone who's not with them is town, which gives them a smaller pool, and second, the Mafia can just hit anyone they're not sure about, and even if the target isn't a power role, well, it's still one townie down. But the Cabal knows about a smaller proportion of the players, and they have no night-kill available to them.

Malacandra

05-15-2007, 05:31 AM

People are now invited to view the roles for the Treasure Island-themed (http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=df8fr37g_13xbkft) game. Hopefully we've got the bugs out now.

Pleonast

05-15-2007, 09:53 AM

More on Pleonast's game: I'm not sure what the Cabal are supposed to do. They have to get rid of the witches to win, but they have no means of doing so. Sure, they can try to sway the lynches, but if a Witch is about to get lynched, she'll role-claim, and she'll probably be able to prove her claim to the satisfaction of the majority without the other two needing to claim. Alternately, the Cabal could try to communicate the Witches' identities to the Vampire or Wolves, who also want to get rid of them, but how are they going to do that, without also communicating that same information to the protectors? And in either case, this assumes that they can even figure out who the witches are. They don't have any investigative capability, and they're at a dual disadvantage compared to the scum in a normal, two-faction game. First of all, the Mafia know that anyone who's not with them is town, which gives them a smaller pool, and second, the Mafia can just hit anyone they're not sure about, and even if the target isn't a power role, well, it's still one townie down. But the Cabal knows about a smaller proportion of the players, and they have no night-kill available to them.The Cabal is the most difficult side to play. They have no special powers, except communication. But don't underestimate that! The dead Cabal can still give advice to the living ones; they also get day and night communication. I see both the Cabal and Witches as mini think-tanks where several players can strategize together and play a smart game. Balancing their lack of power is the fact that no one is intentionally looking for them. Killing a Cabal helps the other sides, but not as much as many other roles.

How to play Cabal? Try to figure out who the Witches are and either get them night-killed, or force them to claim publicly. The Witches can only protect one person per night, so the second Witch revealed creates vulnerability. And once one Witch is killed, the other two are restricted in the nightly choice: investigate or protect. So the Cabal helps the scum find/kill Witches and helps the Town find/kill scum. It'll be tricky.

NAF1138

05-15-2007, 10:43 AM

People are now invited to view the roles for the Treasure Island-themed (http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=df8fr37g_13xbkft) game. Hopefully we've got the bugs out now.

Looks good to me, seems like it will be a fun game!

Chronos

05-15-2007, 12:39 PM

Santo Rugger

05-15-2007, 02:12 PM

Santo Rugger

05-15-2007, 02:22 PM

Oh, and unactivated Dick is not considered a pirate, so him and a lone crew would be a win for the crew.

Dick, Sam, and crew would require a round of voting. Sam might have investigated Dick and the crew, so can sway the vote towards crew, however. But the day must end with somebody walking the plank (lynch).

Pleonast

05-15-2007, 04:03 PM

Now Queuing and Lakai are setting themselves up as an opposing pair. So when one of them gets lynched, the other can say "See I told you so. Now trust me again." Poor town...

NAF1138

05-15-2007, 04:19 PM

I am not sure the town fully realises the implications of todays vote. They don't (as far as they know) get any second chances.

I for one am shocked that they are still persuing a strategy that has worked so poorly for them in the past.

ArizonaTeach

05-15-2007, 04:26 PM

Wait, are we signing up for a new game now?

I want in...

I still think it's a good idea to start the day with no kills, just everyone saying who they WOULD kill, then at night, everyone is told who was ATTACKED, but not by whom. Then everyone gets to play at least one full day.

Santo Rugger

05-15-2007, 04:33 PM

Gadarene

05-15-2007, 04:38 PM

What strategy is that? Not deciding on a target, and then speed-lynching in the last few hours?

That seems to be the preferred strategy for all townspeople everywhere. :D

Santo Rugger

05-15-2007, 04:45 PM

That seems to be the preferred strategy for all townspeople everywhere. :D

Yeah, that's pretty much how I live my live. Except townspeople = me and lynching = homework! :O

Chronos

05-15-2007, 05:19 PM

I still think it's a good idea to start the day with no kills, just everyone saying who they WOULD kill, then at night, everyone is told who was ATTACKED, but not by whom. Then everyone gets to play at least one full day.What incentive do the killers have to be honest? The Mafia could just say "Well, we would kill Cousin Vinnie", and then leave everyone thinking that Vinnie must be Town, because the Mafia attacked him. Or, rather, someone in the Town would point this out, too, and everyone would just completely disregard the first-night attacks. I think I prefer the system where the first night's "kills" are names made up just for that purpose (not actual players), but that nonviolent activities like investigations still occur. This is probably the same effect as what you're proposing, but it seems to flow a bit smoother.

Pleonast, I noticed that too, and I'm now busily wondering whether that feud is genuine. Hopefully, the Town will have enough sense to lynch Lakai, at which point Queuing will become more trusted (and he's already Officially Trusted as Town). At that point, if he really is town, he'd be a likely target for the night-kill (remembering that most of the folks still in the game claim to trust him). If he does get offed by the Mafia, well, then, as far as I'm concerned, the last decision is easy. If he doesn't, though, then I think that I would be inclined to lynch him tomorrow. Which may, of course, just be what the Mafia wants me to think, but hey.

panamajack

05-15-2007, 10:56 PM

I wonder if Lakai is expecting to go down. It'd be odd, though, because if so, he just pretty much confirmed Fretful Porpentine as town - unless he's sending him up the river to make himself look better.

The Treasure Island game seems pretty interesting. The type of information the town gets is unusual in that there doesn't seem to be a regular detective. As far as I can tell, this limits roleclaiming a bit (especially with a pro-pirate 'detective').

Sneaky Sam seems a bit tricky to play. If he's had a few successful IDs, he could suicide and take out some of the power players. That's not really a given, though.

Malacandra

05-16-2007, 03:47 AM

Some clarifications on the Pirate game: I presume that Dick Deadeye makes one kill attempt per night? And if he kills pirates (other than Flint), do they count towards his quota?

If Steele and/or Livesey block a kill, do they know they accomplished anything?

If Flint dies and Gunn becomes sane, is his status revealed?

If the game gets down to just Sam and a normal crewman, whose victory is it? What if it's just an unactivated Dick vs. crew, or a trio of Dick, Sam, and crew?

And you didn't actually list roles for Flint or the generic pirates... I presume that they're just garden-variety scum (aside from Flint and Steele's recognition of each other)?

To enlarge on Pygmy Rugger's previous answer:

Dick must attempt one kill per night. Pirates count; as far as Flint is concerned, any pirate too incompetent to protect himself wasn't worth saving. (That there is no game mechanic by which they could have done so is neither here nor there.)

Steele will be aware if he has blocked a kill, but not necessarily whether his subject was the intended victim or killer. Similarly, the killer will know that he was scared off by someone sneaking around, but not whether Steele was watching him or the victim. (Dick, who starts at every shadow when on a mission, may think Steele blocked him when in fact he failed all by himself.) Livesey, as stated, is well aware that he has just saved someone's life, and so is the intended victim; what's more, the killer will know that he got a blow in. However, Livesey and whoever he saved will do their best to hide the wound, so no-one else knows. The doctor's saving power works only if he happened to be very close on hand when the deed was done.

Gunn is only sane for a given value of "sane". Only when all the pirates are dead will he pop up, tugging his forelock and hoping for a share of the treasure. (In normal Mafia games there's no mechanic for establishing that all scum are dead, either; the GM has to announce it.)

Sam versus one crew must be ruled a crew win as Sam has no means of disposing of the last crewman; giving Sam the opportunity of sharing in such a win would be too much in his favour. Dick is automatically discovered once the last pirate is dead and can't win. So both of the above endings would be a crew win. Moral for all would-be pirates: do your utmost to bring about a pirate win!

Flint, as alluded to, is a pirate with a casting vote and a special relationship with Steele. Generic scum and town were taken as read.

Unless people are in a tearing hurry to begin a game using Google Groups as a venue, we'll have to wait until the current one finishes.

Malacandra

05-16-2007, 05:35 AM

Footnote: Someone wants to book early, so I'd better make it clear that anyone's welcome to sign up in advance. PM me, not Pygmy Rugger. I'll copy this to the other "observation deck".

Rysto

05-16-2007, 09:08 AM

For the love of God, storyteller, look at what's happening! You think that Lakai is scum, and then you follow him on the Fretful bandwagon? That makes no sense, no sense whatsoever.

Santo Rugger

05-16-2007, 09:11 AM

FlyingCowOfDoom

05-16-2007, 09:12 AM

For the love of God, storyteller, look at what's happening! You think that Lakai is scum, and then you follow him on the Fretful bandwagon? That makes no sense, no sense whatsoever.All I can say is that I'm not getting any work done this morning. Also, I think I'm going to need a new F5 key.

--FCOD

Malacandra

05-16-2007, 09:17 AM

All I can say is that I'm not getting any work done this morning. Also, I think I'm going to need a new F5 key.

--FCOD

Ditto that. Just on the off chance, I'll set 'em up for all the players left in...

ArizonaTeach

05-16-2007, 09:26 AM

What incentive do the killers have to be honest? The Mafia could just say "Well, we would kill Cousin Vinnie", and then leave everyone thinking that Vinnie must be Town, because the Mafia attacked him. Or, rather, someone in the Town would point this out, too, and everyone would just completely disregard the first-night attacks. I think I prefer the system where the first night's "kills" are names made up just for that purpose (not actual players), but that nonviolent activities like investigations still occur. This is probably the same effect as what you're proposing, but it seems to flow a bit smoother.Oh, they wouldn't be honest...but then if someone was attacked, look at who wanted to attack them...since the mafia wouldn't be so stupid as to want to attack someone, then actually attack them, then the person that did the original FOS must be a townie! Unless...maybe that's what the mafia wants us to think; in that case, that orginial person must be scum! Or is that what the mafia want us to think...ad infinitum. Like I said, gives us a little more information to start with...

Santo Rugger

05-16-2007, 09:31 AM

Oh, they wouldn't be honest...but then if someone was attacked, look at who wanted to attack them...since the mafia wouldn't be so stupid as to want to attack someone, then actually attack them, then the person that did the original FOS must be a townie! Unless...maybe that's what the mafia wants us to think; in that case, that orginial person must be scum! Or is that what the mafia want us to think...ad infinitum. Like I said, gives us a little more information to start with...

Not really, it just lends itself to circular logic, and the townspeople would disregard the information, as it comes from a source that is not dependable.

Gadarene

05-16-2007, 10:14 AM

Great job running that game, NAF. And congratulations to the Mafia! Well-played.

Aguecheek

05-16-2007, 10:17 AM

Malacandra

05-16-2007, 10:19 AM

Looks like my post one hour ago was bang on the money then.

Well played all, a heroic effort Queueing...

...and who wants to play pirates? :D

NAF1138

05-16-2007, 10:23 AM

...and who wants to play pirates? :D

Oh pick me! Me! MEEEEE!

BTW the mafia boards link is up on the game page if anyone wants to check out the scum's discussion.

Pleonast

05-16-2007, 10:26 AM

Wow, I was fooled to the end.

Please include me in the Pirate game, if there's space.

storyteller0910

05-16-2007, 10:27 AM

Well, then. That was a combination of tremendous fun and tremendously stressful. Well played to everyone, especially Queuing, who is the person ultimately responsible for the death of the SK and who I thought, right up to the end, was going to beat us somehow.

I want to read this whole thread now - I can't believe y'all managed to make it to 500+ posts! - but if, as appears to be the case, there is another game accepting registration, I would really like to play again if there is room.

FlyingCowOfDoom

05-16-2007, 10:30 AM

All morning I wanted to scream "WHERE'S KAT WHY ISN'T SHE VOTING FOR FRETFUL ARGGGGG@!#@!#@@#!#"

Heh I guess it didn't matter. A good game all around.

I guess I can start working again now.

--FCOD

Rysto

05-16-2007, 10:40 AM

My god. What was he thinking?

;)
No fair. You tricked me into thinking that storyteller was town with that bet.

chrisk

05-16-2007, 10:42 AM

Well, I feel a little better about my blunders at this point... and I probably could have afforded to stay in without ruining my April, and without torpedoing the town any worse than they managed to do for themselves. :D

And yet, I'm not really upset about asking to leave. This is a kinduv fun game to pop in and watch, but I'm not sure that I'd ever really enjoy playing it. *sigh*

One more try - anybody interested in Haggling, now that the werewolf mafia has taken over? :) I really hope that we can run a different type of game simultaneously with mafia #3.

NAF1138

05-16-2007, 10:50 AM

ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies

05-16-2007, 11:20 AM

Sweet Jeebus, that was quite the epic struggle, and I've barely been following it.

Welcome out of the rabbit hole, everyone.

Santo Rugger

05-16-2007, 11:26 AM

I don't remember if I've said it, or just implied it (and we don't have to look up post numbers in this thread!), but, damn, NAF, you sure did set up an interesting game; good job, and thanks a ton! It started out very paranoid and confusing, and ended in an interesting endgame that was well played by both sides. Cheers!

No fair. You tricked me into thinking that storyteller was town with that bet.

You think just because I'm a dead scum that I'm gunna start telling the truth all of a sudden? ;)

Although, I must admit, I did PM brewha after he died. It seemed like he really wanted to know the truth. :)

Queuing

05-16-2007, 11:42 AM

Well thank god that is over. This was the first game I have played, and I don't think I will be joining another one anytime soon. I just don't have the time, and now that I have a history here of talking so damn much, and being umm volatile (yeah thats what I will call it) I would guess people would find it suspicious one way or another if I actually shut-up.

I just finished reading this whole thread, and I am glad that none of you were any better then the rest of us! :).

The game was fun, but tiring. I didn't think we had a chance once we lost our detective, yet we lasted and came close. I just can't believe that I had a 50/50 chance of choosing correctly and was still wrong. Well I guess more of a 1/2 out of 2 rather then a 2/4 chance (I know it makes no real difference). I wa snot going to vote for Lakai today, nor would I have voted for Storyteller, even if I was becoming less sure of him. The post that I quoted from Storyteller in the game thread started me thinking that I was wrong, and that storyteller had played a brilliant game and was actually scum. I would have pushed for his death the next day if I had survived the night, and we had been right about Fretful.

Thanks for being the Mod NAF. You did a good job. Personally I freaking hate the SK role. There are no tells that I can see, and I think we wasted a lot of time worrying about trying to get him. We should have just gone for scum. I wish I had more pull when I tried multiple times to get MM though.

Storyteller0910 I haven't read the scum boards yet however I just wanted to say you are a freaking genius and I hope you planned all of those moves of yours, such as FOSing FCOD so early.

Mtgman

05-16-2007, 12:21 PM

Personally I freaking hate the SK role. There are no tells that I can see, and I think we wasted a lot of time worrying about trying to get him. We should have just gone for scum. I wish I had more pull when I tried multiple times to get MM though.That's interesting, considering storyteller0910 gave you the credit for unmasking him by showing how low profile he had managed to be. It seems whatever tells he had were enough for you to pick up on.

Enjoy,
Steven

Chronos

05-16-2007, 12:26 PM

Oh. Good. Lord. That was completely out of left field. All I can say is, storyteller0910 should be in politics. No, scratch that, he probably already is in politics, and the rest of the world just doesn't know about his mind-control rays.

I am curious, though... Why did you let Pygmy Rugger die? I'm sure you could have swayed that vote elsewhere without looking suspicious. I suppose, given who you turned out to be, that it wasn't really a risk (there was no chance at all for storyteller to get lynched, and very, very little for Kat), but I would still think that the quicker win would be preferred.

Malacandra

05-16-2007, 12:29 PM

Queuing, you did good. I thought the Town were dead and buried from about Day three so well done everyone who made such a fight of it. :)

storyteller0910 was the what? *blinks*

Malacandra

05-16-2007, 12:30 PM

Queuing, you did good. I thought the Town were dead and buried from about Day three so well done everyone who made such a fight of it. :)

storyteller0910 was the what? *blinks*

Santo Rugger

05-16-2007, 12:34 PM

<snip>
I am curious, though... Why did you let Pygmy Rugger die? I'm sure you could have swayed that vote elsewhere without looking suspicious. I suppose, given who you turned out to be, that it wasn't really a risk (there was no chance at all for storyteller to get lynched, and very, very little for Kat), but I would still think that the quicker win would be preferred.

*thinking* HEY! He's right! Why did you let me die? True, it built up credibility for the endgame, but if we had lynched a town that day the game would have ended then!

I think we decided the previous night that I was going to die anyway, based on the very close vote between hocow and myself the day before, and wanted story to orchestrate it.

Santo Rugger

05-16-2007, 12:35 PM

Queuing, you did good. I thought the Town were dead and buried from about Day three so well done everyone who made such a fight of it. :)

storyteller0910 was the what? *blinks*

You can say that again!

Queuing did well. ;)

Fretful Porpentine

05-16-2007, 12:38 PM

Well, that was ... interesting. I think I played appallingly badly for the last three days or so, so I can't blame Lakai and Queuing for lynching me. (And damn, I was sososo sure at the end that Queuing and Aguecheek were making precisely the same play that storyteller and Pygmy Rugger were. So close, and yet so far.)

I'd like to play again, but in a smaller game -- I think the size of this one made it impossible to keep track of everything that was happening.

storyteller0910

05-16-2007, 01:17 PM

I am curious, though... Why did you let Pygmy Rugger die? I'm sure you could have swayed that vote elsewhere without looking suspicious. I suppose, given who you turned out to be, that it wasn't really a risk (there was no chance at all for storyteller to get lynched, and very, very little for Kat), but I would still think that the quicker win would be preferred.

I can only speak for myself here, but:

From the beginning of the game, I decided to play based on the idea that we (the Mafia) could win if even one of us survived. Ultimately, it doesn't matter who that is and it doesn't matter how fast the game ends - and it doesn't matter if some of your players die. I knew that I could not be night killed (I was immune to both the SK and the Vig), so my goal was to make myself as unlynchable as possible. Leading the town attacks on Pygmy and FCoD accomplished that; if I had switched from Pygmy I don't think that Queuing, SbS, or Lakai would have treated me differently than they did the other unknowns, but being that helpful that late made them treat me as confirmed.

Plus, I wanted to have a good reason for everything I did, so that I could point anyone who challenged me on a vote or an FoS to my reasons. Ultimately, I tried to lie as little as possible, to analyze people's posts honestly and thoroughly rather than to be deceptive for the sake of being deceptive. If you look at my early lists of trusted people, they are all actual townies. There was evidence - evidence that I myself had presented - against Pygmy, whereas I still can't figure out why the heck everyone was so suspicious of Lakai. If I had switched from the one to the other, I would have had no good reason behind it, and that could have gotten me into trouble.

btw - I think Kat kicked ass in that endgame. I genuinely tried to find some kind of evidence that she was scum, and I knew she was scum, and I could come up with nothing. She is Keyser Freaking Soze as far as I'm concerned. If she hadn't done such a dead-on impersonation of a townie and had gotten caught on that last day, I'm not sure I could have survived (I'd have chosen to night-kill Fretful had that happened, by the way, and then tried to sell Lakai on killing Queuing.).

Reading this thread has been interesting. Seriously, can someone explain to me why Lakai seemed so scummy?

storyteller0910

05-16-2007, 01:19 PM

*thinking* HEY! He's right! Why did you let me die? True, it built up credibility for the endgame, but if we had lynched a town that day the game would have ended then!

I think that this wasn't the case, that we still needed two mislynches (this was before brewha died, so if we got one of them in that spot, we still would have needed one other). If I'm wrong about that, then you are definitely right; we should have switched at the last second to Lakai

Queuing

05-16-2007, 01:30 PM

That's interesting, considering storyteller0910 gave you the credit for unmasking him by showing how low profile he had managed to be. It seems whatever tells he had were enough for you to pick up on.

Enjoy,
Steven

Well I was pretty damn sure that MM was something bad, but I never cared which one it was, and believed there was no way of telling who the SK was. Brewha wouldn't vote for MM because he was sure he wasn't scum. MM's posting history was very suspicious to me, the only one that I did (and I did quite a few), that just screamed "I am not a townie". Oh well, what can you do?

Kat did do an excellent job as well. Storyteller was so trusted in my mind because of his going after FCOD so early and then refusing to let go of Pygmy Rugger. With those two moves he became almost untouchable in my mind. I find it interesting that you would have killed Fretful and not me the last night. I would have liked to have seen that last day. I would like to hear from Lakai, and if it was between you and me whom he would have more likely gone for.

Santo Rugger

05-16-2007, 01:47 PM

I think that this wasn't the case, that we still needed two mislynches (this was before brewha died, so if we got one of them in that spot, we still would have needed one other). If I'm wrong about that, then you are definitely right; we should have switched at the last second to Lakai

:smack: You're right. The town was so good at convincing each other that there were four of us left, I even believed it myself for awhile!

Malacandra

05-16-2007, 02:17 PM

Gadarene

05-16-2007, 02:23 PM

Malacandra:
If enough people want to get on with it now, I will start a Google group for it.

I'd be up for it.

Rysto

05-16-2007, 02:35 PM

Update for those waiting for the pirate game: I've been told to wait until the current (game 3) thread is finished, unless TPTB get around to starting a games forum (no ETA). If enough people want to get on with it now, I will start a Google group for it. At present I have seven players champing at the bit...
I'd like to play, but I was in the first 2 games. If the game isn't full by the time you start it(fat chance), I'm in, but I want to give those who haven't played yet a chance to get in.

storyteller0910

05-16-2007, 02:41 PM

Update for those waiting for the pirate game: I've been told to wait until the current (game 3) thread is finished, unless TPTB get around to starting a games forum (no ETA). If enough people want to get on with it now, I will start a Google group for it. At present I have seven players champing at the bit...

I'd be up to participating in your pirate game - which sounds really cool, by the way - but not if it's to start immediately; I definitely need at least a few days to decompress from the last game.

Chronos

05-16-2007, 02:44 PM

There was evidence - evidence that I myself had presented - against Pygmy, whereas I still can't figure out why the heck everyone was so suspicious of Lakai.Well, I don't know exactly why he was suspicious before the Pygmy lynch (I seem to recall there being some evidence, but I don't recall what exactly it was, and I'm not inclined to go wading for it), but after Pygmy, it was very suspicious that he survived, having lagged by a single vote. Which, I suppose, further underscores the effectiveness of your strategy. Lynching him instead of Pygmy wouldn't have ended the game right there, and it would have made his lynchers a bit more suspect, but only one Mafioso would have had to switch, and one possible suspicion in exchange for one certain mislynch is probably a good deal for the Mafia, that late in the game.

Incidentally, I don't think it's quite precisely accurate to say that the Godfather is immune to the Vigilante. The Vig can't kill him directly, but if he tries and fails, he's got pretty good evidence that he's the Godfather, which is almost as good. On the other hand, the same strategy that kept you from getting lynched presumably also kept the Vig from targetting you in the first place (the Serial Killer might still gun for you, but he'd have no way to share the information). I wonder if this maybe makes the Godfather role, as used in this game, too powerful? I'm not sure I see a good counter to it, aside from just getting lucky on one of the early, blind lynches.

Santo Rugger

05-16-2007, 02:45 PM

I'd be up to participating in your pirate game - which sounds really cool, by the way - but not if it's to start immediately; I definitely need at least a few days to decompress from the last game.

Is it really worth your time to fill up a slot knowing you'll be killed either the first night or second day? ;)

storyteller0910

05-16-2007, 02:51 PM

Incidentally, I don't think it's quite precisely accurate to say that the Godfather is immune to the Vigilante. The Vig can't kill him directly, but if he tries and fails, he's got pretty good evidence that he's the Godfather, which is almost as good. On the other hand, the same strategy that kept you from getting lynched presumably also kept the Vig from targetting you in the first place (the Serial Killer might still gun for you, but he'd have no way to share the information). I wonder if this maybe makes the Godfather role, as used in this game, too powerful? I'm not sure I see a good counter to it, aside from just getting lucky on one of the early, blind lynches.

You know what was really great, for me, was the fact that on Day 2 the town decided it was going to give marching orders to Blaster Master for the duration of the game. If BM had just been doing his own thing, independent of town control, he might have gotten a little itch of suspicion and just decided to try and take me out on his own. As it was, though, and as you say, the same strategy that kept me from getting lynched kept the Vig away.

As to balance, I'd say that this game was very near perfectly balanced. A lot of things happened on both sides - the town benefitted from two enormously prescient kills by the SK, both of players that weren't even on the town radar, but was hurt by the early death of their Detective. It came down almost as far as it's possible for a game to come, so I'm not sure how it could have been better balanced.

storyteller0910

05-16-2007, 02:52 PM

Is it really worth your time to fill up a slot knowing you'll be killed either the first night or second day? ;)

I don't know... there are so many unique roles in the pirate game that I don't think it will play out anything like the other three games have so far. I think the amount of information available from the start will be greater, so the urge to make kills based on nothing but "he played in the last game" will be less.

Malacandra

05-16-2007, 03:00 PM

storyteller0910

05-16-2007, 03:04 PM

NAF1138

05-16-2007, 03:37 PM

Malacandra

05-16-2007, 03:53 PM

WOOHOO! Will we be allowed a forbiden thread on the dope to hang out and talk in after we get killed?

Mf. I guess our genial hosts would frown on that, so I'll set that up in Google. Again, there'll be a link in my sig for all interested parties to follow. Anyone who wants to pester the mods to get on with that games forum, don't let me dissuade you. You in meanwhile?

NAF1138

05-16-2007, 04:08 PM

You in meanwhile?

Yeah, I'm in.

Kat

05-16-2007, 05:38 PM

All morning I wanted to scream "WHERE'S KAT WHY ISN'T SHE VOTING FOR FRETFUL ARGGGGG@!#@!#@@#!#"

Sorry, I was at work.

I am on vacation starting this Saturday through Memorial Day. I assume that the Pirate game will be starting before that? If so, I'll have to wait for Mafia V.

I'd just like to add that storyteller is a freaking genius.

Queuing

05-16-2007, 09:20 PM

So in the 2 games we at SDMB have played the town has won and the scum have won. My question is how does this game "normally" play out? Who wins more often? I understand that there are a lot of different variations of the game changing the dynamics but I assume the basic premise is the same; one side outnumbers the other but the other knows more. Which side normally wins?

It seems to me that the big difference between the 2 games is which team lost a major player first. In the 1st game the alpha died right away, In the second game the DET was lost on the 2nd night. The game was won by which side didn't lose their major power role first. I don't want this taken as a dismissal of the prowess of storyteller (I did stand up and applaud in my server room, luckily no one heard me, not sure how I would have explained that, but I said I would, and dammit! He deserved it!). So which team generally wins?

My guess is the scum. It seems easier to play that side, but what do I know? As we just learned in 79 fun filled pages, not much!

Lakai

05-16-2007, 10:08 PM

Reading this thread has been interesting. Seriously, can someone explain to me why Lakai seemed so scummy?

Reading this thread was fun. It seems that everyone that died and appeared in this thread thought I was acting scummy. Man am I glad that they were all dead. ;)

I was first FOSed by Cowgirl. It was the first time I defended myself against an FOS and that brought Blaster Master on my tail. Blaster Master was conveniently killed that night. If he was left alive I think I would have died a lot sooner. From then on it was Brewha that suspected me, with Queuing following soon after. In retrospect I think that if I never defended myself, no one would have become suspicious of me.

I think that this wasn't the case, that we still needed two mislynches (this was before brewha died, so if we got one of them in that spot, we still would have needed one other). If I'm wrong about that, then you are definitely right; we should have switched at the last second to Lakai

Well, if you would have switched there was still a chance that me and Pleonast would have jumped back on Pygmy, so I think it was wise that you did not expose yourselves.

I was almost dead certain that there could not have been two mafia members voting for Pygmy because no one switched.

Well I was pretty damn sure that MM was something bad, but I never cared which one it was, and believed there was no way of telling who the SK was. Brewha wouldn't vote for MM because he was sure he wasn't scum. MM's posting history was very suspicious to me, the only one that I did (and I did quite a few), that just screamed "I am not a townie". Oh well, what can you do?

Kat did do an excellent job as well. Storyteller was so trusted in my mind because of his going after FCOD so early and then refusing to let go of Pygmy Rugger. With those two moves he became almost untouchable in my mind. I find it interesting that you would have killed Fretful and not me the last night. I would have liked to have seen that last day. I would like to hear from Lakai, and if it was between you and me whom he would have more likely gone for.

The only way we could have had a shot at winning was if the town would have went for Kat on the last day. I thought Kat and Fretful were the last two mafia members and decided to lynch Fretful first, because I thought she was an easier sell. I don't think that even Joe McCarthy could have found a reason to suspect Kat. If Fretful would have got killed that night then I would have voted for Storyteller. It would have been too obvious at that point that Storyteller did not get killed. As mafia, I would not want the only townie that identified two mob members still around for the endgame.

How about you, who would you have voted for if you were left with me and Storyteller?

Kat

05-16-2007, 11:23 PM

I thought Kat and Fretful were the last two mafia members and decided to lynch Fretful first, because I thought she was an easier sell. I don't think that even Joe McCarthy could have found a reason to suspect Kat.

Yeah, you were the only one, I think. How'd you figure it out?

Blaster Master

05-16-2007, 11:28 PM

I'll carry on collecting names, then. The Mafia III game won't be finishing any time soon so unless the games forum is up and running soon, Google Groups it will be. I'll take a leaf out of Gadarene's book and put links in my sig on this board. Nothing will start until next Monday which should give all the shell-shocked participants from this megagame some time to settle their nerves. :D
Hey hey, count me in too... if you can. :)

You know what was really great, for me, was the fact that on Day 2 the town decided it was going to give marching orders to Blaster Master for the duration of the game. If BM had just been doing his own thing, independent of town control, he might have gotten a little itch of suspicion and just decided to try and take me out on his own. As it was, though, and as you say, the same strategy that kept me from getting lynched kept the Vig away.
First of all, well played. There were a couple of times I was a little suspicious of you, but not enough to substatiate it until the end... I thought it was you and Fretful... :( Anyway, I agree, and I didn't really want to kill Fern Forest on my own, but I didn't have much choice at that point. In fact, I think my preference was Auguecheek, and I ALMOST went against the town orders and did it anyway, but decided against that (don't recall why at this point).

I also would've probably whacked Pygmy Rugger and/or Lakai... even though Lakai gained my trust over the last couple of game days, I woulda whacked him before that.

ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies

05-16-2007, 11:36 PM

I'm interested in a round of "Arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!!!!!!!", if there are still spots open.

Kat

05-16-2007, 11:50 PM

Can I sign up for the Substitute List, after I get back from vacation?

Lakai

05-17-2007, 12:12 AM

Yeah, you were the only one, I think. How'd you figure it out?

Toward the end of the game I was getting a lot better at figuring out who was town than I was at who was mafia. I guessed Auto and brewha correctly at that point. So I looked for who was acting like a town and assumed that the rest were mafia. I guessed Queuing because he was FOSed by way too many mafia members. I guessed Storyteller because he had reasons for suspecting everyone, he FOSed two scum before anyone else did, and he looked as confused about the game as a townie would. If I was sure that they were town then that would mean that either you or Fretful had to be mafia. I figured that if Fretful turned up as town that I would try to lynch you the next day.

Unfortunately, I was fooled by Storyteller. :(

zuma

05-17-2007, 12:35 AM

I'd like to play the next game.

Malacandra

05-17-2007, 03:12 AM

NAF1138
Blaster Master
ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies
zuma

have all been added to the list. Room for about eight more!

Malacandra

05-17-2007, 03:13 AM

Can I sign up for the Substitute List, after I get back from vacation?

Yes - now that I know you're out until Monday week.

zuma

05-17-2007, 05:50 AM

That last game, for me, was a learning experience, to say the least. I know I got waaaay too overzealous and contributed to the day 2 clusterfuck. Then side-tracked by pointless arguments with Queuing, Gadarene, and others. Next time I'll be a little more careful. The only thing I can point to that I was proud of was that I correctly identified the attacks on Blaster Master as bullshit. That's something. All my other moves? Not so great :)

Santo Rugger

05-17-2007, 08:02 AM

Queuing

05-17-2007, 08:45 AM

How about you, who would you have voted for if you were left with me and Storyteller?

Hard to know completely of course, but I think that I would have looked long and hard at Storyteller if he had survived the night, and Fretful had not. I wouldn't have seen why Fretful over Storyteller at all, but I don't know for sure. As I said I the post about lack of activity from Storyteller I didn't much care for. Whether it would have been enough to sway me I am not sure.

storyteller0910

05-17-2007, 08:55 AM

Hard to know completely of course, but I think that I would have looked long and hard at Storyteller if he had survived the night, and Fretful had not. I wouldn't have seen why Fretful over Storyteller at all, but I don't know for sure. As I said I the post about lack of activity from Storyteller I didn't much care for. Whether it would have been enough to sway me I am not sure.

Your response to that post was really interesting to me, because it underscored something I noticed throughout the game. Whenever I posted something with a genuine ulterior motive - trying to manipulate a vote or a situation in some way - everyone always seemed to love my analysis and think me trustworthy. The very few times I raised eyebrows were without fail when I was being completely sincere and behaving exactly as I would have as town. Had I been town, most of my posts would have been tremendously different, but the one to which you refer would have been the same - I really genuinely thought that the lack of meanigful discussion was hurting the town, pushing us (well, you) into making a rush decision that hadn't been thought through. But that - possibly the single least scummy thing I did all day long - was the thing that registered as scummy on at least one radar.

I am sure this implies something about the nature of the game, but I have no idea what it is.

Queuing

05-17-2007, 08:59 AM

I didn't like the post because it seemed an attempt to blame others for the lack of activity. One reason I kept getting into fights with people is because it kept them talking. I wanted people to talk, and I was willing to do whatever it took to get them to do so. Your complaint about the lack of posts while doing nothing yourself just seemed odd to me.

Gadarene

05-17-2007, 09:04 AM

storyteller0910

05-17-2007, 09:34 AM

I've noticed that in my game too, storyteller. Without giving away anything, I'll say that I think many players tend to have a completely wrong read on what "suspicious" posts look like, in part because they underestimate the ability of scum to blend in amongst them. It's really fascinating.

If I can hazard a guess (and I don't pretend to any kind of expertise, because this last was the first game I ever played of this, although I followed the first Werewolf thread on this board with near obsessive interest), I think part of it is about an inability to set aside or avoid personal defensiveness. I think the townies in our game seemed to intellectually grasp the idea that they, themselves, could afford to die if it furthered the goal of finding scum, but never really embraced it. The quickest way to convince a townie that you are scum is to say that they are suspicious, because it triggers some reflexive thinking - "well, I know I'm not scum, so the only reason he/she would be pointing at me is if he/she is scum him/herself!"

Look at what Queuing is saying in response to me, here. He found me suspicious because he felt I was passing blame for lack of activity (to him and Lakai, who had been arguing). Because for the first time I was addressing him in a negative way, I think there's an emotional reaction - oh, cast blame on me, will you? Maybe you are scum! (After all, the contention that I had done nothing that last day isn't really fair - I had laid out a fairly detailed post outlining my pretend suspicions and the reasons for them, and was waiting for discussion of those points. No one ever challenged any of them ever, which surprised me enough to make the post I made in spite of the fact that more discussion was actually not what I wanted).

It worked the other way, too. Announce to the world that you strongly believe a townie to be a townie and that person - especially if others are already suspicious of them - will automatically start trusting you. As scum, this is an easy strategy to employ, because you're guaranteed to be right. From early to mid-game, the only people who ever appeared on my "probably town" lists were townies of whom others were suspicious. That made each of the people on those lists automatically consider me more trustworthy than they did those who suspected them, even though, if you think about it, it should be the other way around.

NAF1138

05-17-2007, 09:39 AM

Hey, NAF, just out of curiosity, when you named the game, "Werewolf, with Mafia", did you plan to have us turn to werewolfs in the end if we won, or was it a last minute sort of thing? I thought that was kind of cool, actually.

I decided a few weeks back that I would turn you guys into werewolves at the end. I realized that I was thinking of the game as a game of werewolf and that this variation just happened to have mafia. So I decided to tie the ending back in with the title, wrap things up with a neat little bow so to speak.

chrisk

05-17-2007, 09:46 AM

I decided a few weeks back that I would turn you guys into werewolves at the end. I realized that I was thinking of the game as a game of werewolf and that this variation just happened to have mafia. So I decided to tie the ending back in with the title, wrap things up with a neat little bow so to speak.

Yeah, I figured the original title was because 'werewolf' had name recognition with the dopers, while a mafia thread might have confused people who had gotten used to the basic idea from the first werewolf game.

fluiddruid

05-17-2007, 09:53 AM

Just a heads up, all, you're welcome to get signups now but we have a waiting list for more Mafia/Diplomacy (and similar) games. I already have about four people waiting, so PM me if you want to be added to the list.

fluiddruid

05-17-2007, 09:56 AM

Actually, 5 are currently waiting. This is due to our "we can't take over MPSIMS with games" policy. Though I would very much like to play the Treasure Island game...

fluiddruid

05-17-2007, 09:57 AM

Ooops, missed the "off board" thing. Carry on.

NAF1138

05-17-2007, 09:58 AM

Ooops, missed the "off board" thing. Carry on.

So does that mean you will play?

Gadarene

05-17-2007, 09:59 AM

How are Mafia and Diplomacy similar? :confused:

fluiddruid

05-17-2007, 09:59 AM

PM already sent. :)

Gadarene

05-17-2007, 10:00 AM

In case it was lost in the page flip:

Just a heads up, all, you're welcome to get signups now but we have a waiting list for more Mafia/Diplomacy (and similar) games. I already have about four people waiting, so PM me if you want to be added to the list.

How are Mafia and Diplomacy similar? :confused:

fluiddruid

05-17-2007, 10:10 AM

Similar in that they're strategic forum games, that will take up front page real estate for some time to come.

Gadarene

05-17-2007, 10:33 AM

Similar in that they're strategic forum games, that will take up front page real estate for some time to come.

But aren't the Diplomacy threads mostly just discussion about a game that's taking place elsewhere?

Never mind...I guess I just feel that the administration's concern with the potential proliferation of game threads is somewhat overblown, but I know it's not your personal policy, and it's not incumbent upon you to articulate or defend it.

Jonathan Chance

05-17-2007, 07:11 PM

But aren't the Diplomacy threads mostly just discussion about a game that's taking place elsewhere?

Indeed it is. See my comment in ATMB.