Forbidden thread Version 3 (off limits to players of Mafia III)

[SnakesCatLady]

Wonder who's holding up the game?

[SnakesCatLady]

I think I got screwed. (No offense, Gadarene - I know mistakes happen) If Idle Thoughts should have died on one of the no-kill nights, I would probably not have been lynched since he was the ringleader. Damn it.

Well, my beady eye was on zuma, who was town too, so I guess the town is better off without me.

[sachertorte]

I guess this means the doctor is likely still in play (pro-town). With one of the no-kill nights targetting the night watchman (Idle Thoughts) and not a self-protecting doctor as the town previously thought, then the chances of a recruit having happened are quite slim.

This game really sucks for the town. Masons are supposed to be an asset to the town, but because of recruitment, they can't help the town in any meaningful way. Furthermore, the mason win condition makes a town win flat out impossible at this point.

One thing unusual about this game is the fact that no masons are known alive or dead.
Imagine the game without recruitment, the Masons could claim, making the balance 3 confirmed town vs. 5 unknown with a functional doctor. Town could actually win!

As it is now, mason's can't claim and the doctor can't protect them.

[sachertorte]

Blaster Master is acting as though the recruitment happened. I don't see why he would think that way since the whole thesis of recruitment was based on two blocked kills leading to the conclusion of recruitment of the target. Idle Thoughts was one of the targets and he was not recruited. How does Blaster Master figure there was a recruitment?

[sachertorte]

Gaaah. I really want to reach in there and slap a few players.

1) If there were 4 mafia left, the town would have already lost.
2) If there were 4 mafia left, Gadarene would have set up an impossibly difficult game for the town, totally unbalanced.

There must be less than 4 mafia left!

I'm guessing two mafia with the option to recruit.

[Lemur866]

Hah, hah! Sucks to be town!

I love the smell of mod-kill in the morning.

[Lemur866]

Gaaah. I really want to reach in there and slap a few players.

1) If there were 4 mafia left, the town would have already lost.
2) If there were 4 mafia left, Gadarene would have set up an impossibly difficult game for the town, totally unbalanced.

There must be less than 4 mafia left!

I'm guessing two mafia with the option to recruit.

Exactly. What people don't get is that the recruitment option is much MUCH better for the scum than another vanilla scum. If the game started with 6 scum it would be a total hosing of the town.

Oh, and is it just me, or are the roles reversed from what they should be?

The "townsmen" should be mafia, and the scum should be rats. The mafiosi run around during the night whacking people at random for being suspected scum, while the rats squeal to the Feds and get the mafiosi sent away during the day. Masons would be "made" guys who trust each other, the "doctor" is actually a shyster lawyer who can get evidence thrown out. And so on. You want to give the "townies" a chance to role-play! It would make things more fun.

[Idle Thoughts]

Wow, a whole new topic to catch up now.
Since it's the forbidden thread and I expect current players won't read this, I'll just say this: there's even more to what happened with me and that situation than was said (but obviously can't be said due to giving too much away). Man, if only town knew all the things I do now, hahahaha. VERY very interesting stuff. Right now, as I read, they're already finding things weird and odd and using that to sort out reasoning...but there's actually a whole lot more that took place. And on top of that, even I don't know all the full details so I can't wait until Gads allowed to reveal.

Really interesting situation.

But now, time to read this full thread.

[Idle Thoughts]

The interesting thing is that reading the Mafia III thread with perfect information, I'm noticing a lot of things about the posting patterns (and style) of the Mafia and such that will help me out immensely the next time I'm a player. :)

This is why I kept bringing up experience. Because as a host of a few games beforehand, I knew a lot of tricks as well and looked out for them.
I just wish I hadn't gotten so hard against SCL. :smack: But I'll explain that in a bit.

[Idle Thoughts]

I think you are generous to place all of the blame on bad luck, but I can attest that there was not an abundance of good luck. There are certainly things I would do differently with that role next time around. I had decided that the best way to avoid looking like a detective was to play the game almost exactly as if I were a vanilla townie, except where I had to make exceptions to permit the inclusion of breadcrumbs. I wanted to avoid the common newbie tell of being overly conservative and stand-offish with a power role (thank you, mafiascum wiki.) However, I failed to consider just how likely my vanilla townie play style was to get me whacked.

I think I can safely say that it was my play as a townie that got me killed, not my play as a detective. If I had been a bit more conservative on that side, the town might still have a detective. Or maybe I'm just second-guessing too much.

I think that day three will be a turning point for the town, one way or the other.

This is all interesting. I've hosted many, many games and often think what I'd do if I were playing and in a detective type role...and, against the thoughts of a lot of people, I'm pretty sure I'd probably role claim in on the first or second day..probably second if I survived the first night. I'd then take the risk of being not believed but also take suggestions on who to check out each night and plead with whoever the unknown Doc was to take a chance and protect me.

Because in a case like that, if you think about it (and I have many times for long hours), the only way that they could derail me is if they find the Doc.

This speaking, of course, about a game where there is no recruitement (and this was the first one I've ever played or hosted where that was a possibility).

[Idle Thoughts]

Okay, long post and confession time. This will also explain and make sense of many of my actions in the game in case anyone thinks I really, really suck at it (what with the going after SnakesCatLadyso hard). I actually think I may suck at the game...but I like to think maybe it's not as much as others may think I do. So here is a full explanation of ANOTHER thing that went down earlier in the game with interesting results. Please note. I will be using abbreviated names so that what I'm about to explain doesn't ever happen with anyone else. :p:

Way back on Day four (I think it was, but it might have been day three), when I first logged into the SDMB, I did a vanity search. Who doesn't? I do it every so often, about two times a week.

And so, I typed in my name and searched for any reference of someone mentioning my name. I also put the setting on "display by post" rather than topic, because it makes it easier to find if someone mentioned you.

Doing this and pressing search, the results came up and I scrolled all the way down to the bottom as I always read from the bottom (oldest) up (to most recent).



At the time, THIS was the very last post:

It's amusing that Idle Thought's list in #1059, there's exactly one Mafia member named in four of the five categories. :)

I'm also very interested to see if anyone else follows Blaster Master's lead and unvotes fluiddruid.


..which as you see, clearly mentions my name. And so, without seeing what topic it was in, my eyes read over the very first sentence. It was then, after blinking in confusion and puzzlement, I looked up at what topic it was taken out of and saw it was the forbidden thread.


Well, I went nuts.


I immediatly PMed Gad and told him what happened. I explained it in full, just as I did now and told him that I think/feel that I should be replaced. That it would be impossible for me to forget completely what I read and now knew. Because you have to admit, that was a pretty big clue and hint and info that I now knew that nobody else did.

So I PMed him and told him I think it's fair and in my best interest to maybe be subbed out. I did really want and wish I could stay in the game, and told him this, but I didn't see, really, how I could after my accidental seeing of that post.

Well, he PMed me back and we talked back and forth in PM for a bit. Ultimately it was decided that I'd stay in the game but not ever reveal anything too solid that I knew (and, obviously, as the game went on more and more, I was knowing, for sure, more and more...for example. Once fluid was axed, I KNEW that nobody else in that group of players was scum (at least not yet)). Instead I'd just give it like every other player in there...saying things like "I think" and "I feel" and FOSing people and using posts to help my suspicions look valid.

And really, it wasn't THAT huge of a clue. I mean I still had one choice out of four groups, so in a way, it was harder for me rather than easier. It was like, all this time you think you know something and are pretty sure of yourself....and then you find out all you think and believe is wrong. I seriously started doubting myself at that time. Because here was, not only, a scum that existed in all I trusted, but only ONE in those I thought were all shady and scummy. So I was right on one but not on the other three.

So yeah, I found it was actually harder for me. I think with my preconcieved info and knowing things, it ruined my game and caused me harm (especially in the end).

And this explains a lot of my posts and things that I did. For example, it explains why I started saying stuff like "Hmmm..well, for all I know those four I find shady could all be scum, but I don't think I'm that good. However I think the chances are good that at least ONE of them are." and, after fluid was gone, why my suspicions of Mill and CaerieD waned almost immediatly (although again, in my posts, I tried to make this subtle and put it like I was still pretty suspicious of them a bit. I couldn't let it slip that I knew stuff nobody else knew).

In different ways, I hated it and I enjoyed it. I enjoyed it because it helped open up my mind and see things in new ways and grow as a player. I hated it because I felt like I was cheating in a way and still thought it was a bit unfair to the other players. Again, I expressed these thoughts and feelings to Gad in a PM and he understood but at the same time was sympathetic a bit. He didn't want to replace me as he thought (and, as it turned out, was right) that his post didn't really say anything solid. It's true that it didn't, but again, as people died off left and right, the things I DID know came more and more to light.

It happened again when Lemur was killed off. I then knew that Cookies and nest were town. Sure there was the recruit that could be anyone...but I already had figured it to be tirial.

So I then turned my attention to the last groups. AND THIS is why I went after SCL so much and so hard (now you know, SCL). Because I knew that either her or Rach was scum. I knew that beyond a doubt.

Thing is, which one? I read over posts they made again and more and more it seemed like SCL was jumping out at me. After all, she was posting the most and Rach wasn't at all. In fact, Rach has less posts then people who died on day one and two did.

So I only could use the posts I saw and I figured that SCL was it. I also figured I had a fifty-fifty chance anyway and she felt good for scum.

I only realized after I found she was town that I made a huge mistake. I should have kept my mind open and continued looking at Rach. I knew, for sure, she was scum now, but my credibility was shot and I was probably not long for the game anyway (which was ironic how it turned out--that I was actually dead a long time ago but nobody knew it).

Instead I focused all my suspicion on SCL when it was the other one I should have been looking at. I even SAID THIS too, after fluid was gone. That I felt that at least ONE (or both, or neither thrown in for good measure per my promise to Gad for staying in the game) of those two were scum.

So there you have it. My confession and explaination of some of my actions in the game.

In the end, I've deduced (which I started feeling more and more in the game and even PMed Gad about it, laughing) that that post I read actually made the game HARDER for me. Much harder. It also was my downfall and harmed my thinking making it much easier for me to think I was right, when instead, I was wrong. It was knowing that one was scum and the other was clean that made it too easy to single one out. And so I wish now that I never saw that post and am actually pretty thankful I was taken out as I was probably wrong on Diggit too. Or at least I realized that I might be doing the same mistake again. I guess we'll find out when the game's over.

As for the recruit, though. I still feel/think it's tirial.

I also don't see any harm in making this post as people read and saw Gads first post in here (the one I accidently seen), so they should know already, too, that since SCL is town, that leaves only one more person under that group heading that could be the scummy one.


My soul feels cleansed now. : p

Again, SnakesCatLady, I'm sorry I went after you so hard. Now you know why. It's not that I suck at the game (although that may still be the case)..it's just I'm incredibly stupid.

[Idle Thoughts]

I also had CaerieD as scum based on her ridiculous assertions of not wanting to get into the town's sticky mess and voting no lynch. CaerieD and fluiddruid were in the same Idle Thoughts category that Gadarene tipped us off with, so presumably CaerieD, Millet the Frail, and tirial are town. I guess CaerieD's actions really were clueless town actions and not scum intransigence. Bad me.

Hahaha, it's good to see people in here were doing exactly what I was doing and thinking exactly what I was thinking by that time.

[Idle Thoughts]

I guess this means the doctor is likely still in play (pro-town). With one of the no-kill nights targetting the night watchman (Idle Thoughts) and not a self-protecting doctor as the town previously thought, then the chances of a recruit having happened are quite slim.



Snipped.

One thing I can't figure is why, when they did try me (and I do know what night they did--like I said, I wish town knew ALL of the things I know, because it's much more than Gad said/revealed/explained in there plus extra stuff) and found me blocked, they didn't try recruiting or hitting me again (two things I know they didn't do--again, will probably be explained at endgame).

I don't get that.

[sachertorte]

Rach was scum. I knew that beyond a doubt.
(snipped)
In fact, Rach has less posts then people who died on day one and two did.


This is a huge problem with the game. I think the same thing happened in WW1. Not playing the game is not an appropriate strategy. It simply isn't fun that way, and if it isn't fun, then what's the point?

On the one hand, it is the town's responsiblilty to prod lurkers and make them post more, but historically, at least on this board, attacking the lurkers has been a poor action. Perhaps early in the game lynching lurkers is bad, but later in the game it becomes a more justifiable reason to lynch?

Someone should create a secret role, lurker cop: each night you will receive role information about the player with the fewest posts for the day.

[Gadarene]

Someone should create a secret role, lurker cop: each night you will receive role information about the player with the fewest posts for the day.

I like it!

[sachertorte]

Hahaha, it's good to see people in here were doing exactly what I was doing and thinking exactly what I was thinking by that time.

Yes, but I also concluded that you were scum based on Gadarene's slip. :smack:

[Idle Thoughts]

Well now that you know I'm not and Rach is, that leaves one last group (which, after zumas demise) that has only three people in it, either Hal, Diggit, or BM.

There still is the recruit to think about and, if anyone, I'd think it would be tirial, but after that snafu that happened yesterday, I'm not so sure there's been a recruit yet.

[fluiddruid]

I like it!I don't. Basically it's just as good as another detective, plus it will lead to a lot of strategy changes (you post a lot, you MUST be mafia). IMHO.

[Scuba_Ben]

Based on tirial's latest post, as well as what Idle Thoughts has told us, I think e's a mason, and Millit is not.

[Lemur866]

Look, it's obvious that Tirial is the doctor, her "The doctor protected me!" rap was just a way to deny being the doctor to the scum so they wouldn't recruit her. So Tirial can't be a mason. But Hal almost certainly is. Kind of odd that we've had no mason kills yet, or even attempted day lynches stopped by a mason role claim. I suppose that since the masons know not to target each other, and people tend to get lynched with very small margins, that's enough to keep any masons out of the danger zone...the masons don't role-claim, it's just that if a mason is in danger all the other masons pile on the next-highest candidate and get them lynched instead. However, this strategy has lead to a lot of dead townies as the masons aren't voting for their leading scum candidates, but rather to protect other masons.

[Scuba_Ben]

Look, it's obvious that Tirial is the doctor....Since I've never played, this isn't obvious to me. What should I look for to verify this?

[Kyrie Eleison]

Since I've never played, this isn't obvious to me. What should I look for to verify this?
This post (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=8555079&highlight=doctor#post8555079) screams "I am the doctor." The tactic tirial outlines is just too dicey unless she can count on cover from the doctor. The most likely explanation for her confidence is that she is the doctor.

However, as she hoped, the post could also be seen as a clever gambit by a do-gooder, but we now know who both of them were.

[Lemur866]

It was a clever play, because it protects her on a couple of different levels. On the first level, it's a tacit admission that she's the doctor. The only way the doctor could protect her is if she's the doctor, no sane doctor would protect someone just because they've been acting up. So if she's the doctor, she's self protecting. In a regular game, the only downside to this is that the mafia won't waste a kill attempt on her. But in this game, they can recruit her, and her doctor powers won't protect against a recruitment.

So she's in a bind. But this game also has the do-gooder role. And a do-gooder could try to trick the mafia into a recruitment attempt, wasting their recruitment. So if a do-gooder tried to all-but-claim doctor, then the scum try to recruit her, then she's turned the tables on them.

So the scum are in a bind. Is she really the doctor, and thus a prime candidate for recruitment, or is she a do-gooder quacking like a doctor in the hopes they waste their recruitment on her? Better for them to just leave her alone and hope she gets day-killed.

Except now both do-gooders are dead, so she's gotta be the doc. So if there was a recruitment already, it would stand to reason that it would have to be her, since she's invulnerable to night-kills. Only question is, did the scum fire 5 bullets or 6? Do you feel lucky...punks?

[Dragoness]

Someone should create a secret role, lurker cop: each night you will receive role information about the player with the fewest posts for the day.

Eek! That means that trying to be the lowest-count poster each day becomes a pro-town strategy, and posting at all becomes a scum tell! I can't think of a more effective way to kill the game!

Idle, I have to say that a lot of your bizzare behavior makes a lot more sense now :D Gadarene's info in that post seemed so helpful, but it messed up my predictions too- I was SURE you were scum just because only a scum would have so carefully distributed the scum among those categories. I'd have bet money on it, especially once you started picking so hard on SCL. More information may not always be better, it seems...

[Malacandra]

Anyone want to sub into the Hispaniola game? Check the link for the story so far. PM me if you like the look of it.
ta,
Mal.

[Idle Thoughts]

The thing is...according to what I was explained when Gad said that the mafia and him thought maybe it was best if I were modkilled, recruitment hasn't happened yet, apparently. I mean, it couldn't have from the things he said. Not unless it was a complete random, "In the dark" recruitment and I don't see why they'd do that. Again, they could have, which is why I'm not counting it out...but I wouldn't know why.

So why couldn't they just recruit her if she's the Doc? She seems the most likely option.

[Idle Thoughts]

Idle, I have to say that a lot of your bizzare behavior makes a lot more sense now :D Gadarene's info in that post seemed so helpful, but it messed up my predictions too- I was SURE you were scum just because only a scum would have so carefully distributed the scum among those categories. I'd have bet money on it, especially once you started picking so hard on SCL. More information may not always be better, it seems...

Yeah, tell me about it. And it's like it made me have to rethink everything I had "thought" so far. Even though it was day three, it was like, FOR ME, day one all over again. I didn't know who to trust or who to put fingers on.

At first I thought, well, Gad says it's okay for me to stay in and actually hopes I do..so cool! I have a pretty big advantage.

But that lasted for about..oohh...half a day before I saw that it was actually harder for me, in a way. Sure, like I said before, as the game went on I was more and more knowing of who was who as Lemur and fluid were killed off and took those "one each" out of those groups...but that still left others and made it far too easy for me to go after the wrong one. I just wish I could have kept my preconceived notions and that would have allowed me to remain suspicious of Rach as much as I was SCL. : /

I dunno. I just didn't like it after that day. The game, I mean. Not much (which also explains why my posts started becoming more playful and humorous and less analytical--something tir saw as being suspicious). I guess I lost my enthusiasm.

Seriously people. It's no fun knowing things unless you're scum. And even they must have it hard. Cause they have to lie in the majority of their posts.

I really think if I was ever mafia in this game, I wouldn't be long for it.

[Lemur866]

Sure, we could have recruited her, since we know that she couldn't be a do-gooder. But when she made her "I'm not the doc, but I'm sure the doc protected me!" speech there was still a do-gooder alive. Pretty risky to do so with the chance that she could be a do-gooder trolling as a doctor. Of course if she were a do-gooder how could she be so "sure" that the doc had protected her?

[sachertorte]

Someone should create a secret role, lurker cop: each night you will receive role information about the player with the fewest posts for the day.

secret! as in, no one knows that the role exists.

[Lemur866]

Idle, I was actually kind of disappointed to be assigned a mafia role, because it is a lot harder. You have to hold back a lot more. But my strategy for posting was pretty much to just post as if I were a townie, especially "general strategy" posts. The strategy posts I gave were pretty much 100% sincere.

[Idle Thoughts]

Idle, I was actually kind of disappointed to be assigned a mafia role, because it is a lot harder. You have to hold back a lot more. But my strategy for posting was pretty much to just post as if I were a townie, especially "general strategy" posts. The strategy posts I gave were pretty much 100% sincere.

I noticed this too, as others did. You seemed to really be honest in your scumminess. Almost to the point where you were telling the complete truth about everything other then the fact that you were town. :p

I think you did a pretty good job. The only things, actually, that tipped me off to you was a combination of two things. A: That whole thing where you were so insistant that roles would be better killed off by the mafia then recruited and B: my accident knowledge of that one post therefore knowing you, nesta or Cookies had to be scum (because Lightnin, the other name in that group, was already dead by that point).

Others that I trusted also seemed to have similiar misgivings about you...so yeah, that was it (although, funny and ironic; even though I posted many times I did think you were scum, as it turned out, I didn't vote for you in the end but instead was voting for someone pro-town. SEE! A lot of fat good that extra knowledge helped me. :smack: )

[Dragoness]

secret! as in, no one knows that the role exists.
D'oh :smack: Ignoring me is usually a good strategy when I'm being stupid.

[Scuba_Ben]

Eek! That means that trying to be the lowest-count poster each day becomes a pro-town strategy, and posting at all becomes a scum tell! I can't think of a more effective way to kill the game!Here's a variant concept, Dragoness: Scooby Doo. This isn't a role, it's a big dog. He comes to the side of whoever posts the most during a game day, and reveals overnight the role of whoever posts the least. It needs a lot of work, because anybody can count (or put together a spreadsheet to do the counting), and find out who just learned the role of whom.

[fluiddruid]

The problem is that role-revealing is a HUGE deal. You can't have people learning roles willy-nilly. For the purposes of game balance, you have to have a relatively small proportion of Mafia; it's not uncommon for the Mafia to have only two or three members in-game at a time. Learning roles every night is a HUGE town advantage; you basically need to add at least one, and maybe more, Mafia for these as they are "detective equivalent"... sure, they don't choose, but a role reveal every day is a huge farking deal.

Even random blocking powers are very strong - look at this game - blocks are really the only reason why Town still has a chance to win. If the kills had gone through successfully we would be inches from a Mafia win now.

If you want to add more role reveals, it shouldn't be every day, IMHO; maybe a "Medium" character who will get a percentage chance of knowing a role based on your criteria, but, that has a chance to get a fake reading. This makes the power a bit more comparable to Beat Cops.

[Dragoness]

Here's a variant concept, Dragoness: Scooby Doo. This isn't a role, it's a big dog. He comes to the side of whoever posts the most during a game day, and reveals overnight the role of whoever posts the least. It needs a lot of work, because anybody can count (or put together a spreadsheet to do the counting), and find out who just learned the role of whom.

Maybe Scooby-Doo comes to a random townie, secretly, to tell the role of the lowest-count player?

Er, as for tirial's posting in the game... did she read this thread? :confused: Did someone PM her a hint? :confused: Or is she just making a brilliant intuitive leap? Suddenly I don't think she's been recruited (couldn't make up my mind before).

I also strongly think he just flipped a coin between you and SCL - since SCL had been fingered by scum, but the evidence against you was from your posts like every other player, he went for the wrong one.

Hee. Got it in one :)

[Scuba_Ben]

If you want to add more role reveals, it shouldn't be every day, IMHO; maybe a "Medium" character who will get a percentage chance of knowing a role based on your criteria, but, that has a chance to get a fake reading. This makes the power a bit more comparable to Beat Cops.Funny you should mention that, fluiddruid, as my first draft of Scooby-Doo was a role with a random chance of learning information. To wit:

Scooby-Doo has a random chance of learning one non-public fact about the previous night's actions. (A public fact would be typically who was killed and what role they were. The only other public fact I can think of at the moment is that no kill happened.) As the game goes on, Scooby-Doo has an increasing chance of learning a non-public fact, so the role becomes potentially stronger in the late game. But Scooby-Doo doesn't necessarily find out a role; they might learn, for example, "last night the Doctor protected Qadgop" (to use someone who isn't in Mafia 3), but this fact would neither confirm nor deny whether Qadgop was the Doctor. Or they might find out "the Detective investigated Gadarene," or simply "fluiddruid had a night action." Again, it's a rough concept from someone who's never played.

[sachertorte]

In terms of game balance, I would agree that having another detective type player would need to be carefully thoughtout; but in this game, where I deduce started with 4 mafia with the ability to recruit started out very mugh in favor of the mafia. So an additional pro-town power role wouldn't be unbalancing. Furthermore, the lurker cop gets to see information about the player who posts the least, and that's it. It isn't nearly as powerful as a regular cop since the lurker cop can't choose a target and will likely get repreated information. Heck, the moderator could even keep the investigation selection criterion secret from the lurker cop too.

[Lemur866]

Yeah, I think people don't realize just how powerful the recruitment is, because it can be saved for when there's only one mafia left. By that point there will also be only a few townies. The recruit is picked from the pool of players who survive. It's like having an unkillable mafiosi.

And of course, recruitment means that no townie can trust another townie after there's been a no-kill night. Look at how the town is tearing itself apart accusing each other of being recruited. Of course, if they were smart they'd realize that the only reason they have a strong suspicion that a recruitment happened was because there were three no-kill nights in a row...but they should remember now that that didn't really happen! And look at the timing. When did this supposed recruitment take place? Back when I was still alive.

One more thing. I thought the various suggestions that we might have chosen "no-kill" just to keep the town off balance were simply foolish. Why in the world would any sane scum do such a thing? To pretend that a recruitment happened? But with a doc and a night watchman surely you're going to have a random block or two. There's no good reason to avoid killing a townie that I can see.

[Scuba_Ben]

Yeah, I think people don't realize just how powerful the recruitment is, because it can be saved for when there's only one mafia left. By that point there will also be only a few townies. The recruit is picked from the pool of players who survive. It's like having an unkillable mafiosi.I'd be curious to find out after the game ends what discussions were held over whether to recruit, when, whom, and why. I suspect veterans of these games are even more curious.

[sachertorte]

At the beginning of the game I immediately saw that the correct time to recruit would be 1) if it gives you the win or 2) the night immediately following the the second to last mafia getting lynched, and possibly 3) recruiting the detective to negate investigative power.

All the no night deaths happened before lemur got lynched, so either lemur was the last original mafia (totally implausible) or there are still two original mafia left. If there was one mafia left, then there should have been a no-kill after lemur's death, which there wasn't. If there were three mafia left... well, I think that would be unbalanced.

So the town should be able to deduce this. We the spectators have the benefit of knowing the game started with 4 mafia.

On a seperate thought: even though the town can't win, the mason still can. If the masons can avoid today's lynch and tonight's nightkill, they establish a majority. Ugh, but there's that pesky recruitment. Nevermind. If the town lynches mafia today, and forces a recruitment, and the recruitment hits a non-mason, then the masons win.

[sachertorte]

So um, does anyone else think tirial has read the Gadarene post in this thread that states thw whole one in each group thing? I can't believe someone would be able to deduce that on their own.

[Idle Thoughts]

I dunno. I don't think she has, personally, but instead just really caught on fast.

I know that she DOES know that I knew something and more info that I should have. Because (and try to follow along hahah) she PMed me yesterday and told me that she had PMed Gad asking him if I knew more than I should or had extra info and that he said yeah but that it wasn't much and that it was an accident. So her reason for PMing me was to ask just simply "Why didn't you sub out?"


I PMed her back saying "Yeah I did know more having had something happen..." Although I didn't say what, "....and I did request to be subbed out at that time but in the end, it was decided that what I had found out wasn't that critical to be taken out of the game."

And that was it.

So, I dunno. It's possible she went back over my posts and found where I started to act different from what my original thoughts/opinions were and deduced there was something there that pointed to knowing something I shouldn't have...but I honestly have no idea.




But the bottom line is...

I've ruined this game.
I should have subbed out the moment I saw that post. Doesn't matter it was an accident...I KNEW, deep down, it was extra info (even if it wasn't saying anything concrete) that nobody else knew. Doesn't matter if it made my game actually harder, or easier, or whatever. Dammit, I should have subbed out.

So many chain reactions happened from it. And, combined with the fact that I SHOULD have been killed way before I was and was technically dead from Night Three on, it just created a HUGE snafu. Even though the two are completely unrelated mistakes, it still joins forces to ruin it, and had I been subbed out that first night, I never WOULD have given a night patrol for Night Three, and that mistake would have never happened by Gad.
So if you really want to think about it, even that could have been avoided if I had insisted on subbing out. I should have insisted. Gad hoped I'd stay in but crap, it's not his fault because I had said, in the PM I sent to him where I told him what I saw, that I really did hope I could still play somehow. I shouldn't have said that and really just said "No, take me out. I'm sure."


I feel so horrible because the game just went so downhill from there. It's not really fair for either team. It's not fair for scum. It's not fair for town. It's not fair for SCL (who had a DOUBLE WHAMMY of not only being pegged incorrectly due to my knowledge but also shouldn't have even been started on in the first place by me due to me being dead). It's not fair for the people following along even.

I screwed this whole game up it seems and from that thing, which I still held out hope that I could stay in and play, created many side things..and now we have tirial either starting the same stuff or being mislead in thoughts too. Even just KNOWING that I KNEW something. It affects people.

The night that I knew SCL was going to get it, I laid at home being eaten up with worry. What if I was wrong? What if I had been wrong? I knew that her or Rach had to be one, but what if, all that time, I was wrong because of things I just happened to KNOW for sure (that one or the other was scum)?

And the next day when I got on and saw I was wrong...God I felt so bad. I PMed Gad saying I suck. I PMed SCL saying I suck and am sorry. Hell, I even PMed MAL telling him to take me out of Mafia four (something he didn't want to do either and talked me down from...at least it wasn't because I had knowledge for that game, thank God)

I hope he's happy.

So yeah, I am happy. Happy that I know I have bad judgement and great smackheadedness. :( : /

[sachertorte]

Whoa. Don't be so hard on yourself.

Really. It's just a game. I'm actually more entertained. Mistakes happen and quite frankly, Gaderene probably shouldn't have posted that post about your post. No one did anything malicious so, at least in my opinion, no harm done.

At least its nice to know that tirial is a sharp one. I doubt I would have picked up on your change in behavior and gain of information, but then again, I haven't been reading the thread nearly as closely as before.

Chin up, it's just a game.

[SnakesCatLady]

Idle Thoughts, please don't beat yourself up about this. IT IS A GAME. It the grand scheme of things it is not important! Mistakes happen, shit happens, whatever. I learned a lot from the time I was in the game and I hope to play again sometime.

It is actually kind of funny, because I notice players from the game more than I ever did before - I feel somehow "closer" to all of them. I was touched by how many of them stopped by my RIP Gweniever thread to offer condolences.

[Idle Thoughts]

Yeah, I know it's just a game. And I'm not competitive at all or what not. I don't take games seriously. Even in-game I was mostly trying to keep it light because I know it's a game where emotions can run high sometimes.

I guess it was just coming from the feeling that seeing the post by accident harmed my game play..and it really did, I mean nobody can deny that. So I guess some self-flagellation is to be expected. :p

But thanks for the confident words. I think it's interesting too, if nothing else.

[Idle Thoughts]

It is actually kind of funny, because I notice players from the game more than I ever did before - I feel somehow "closer" to all of them. I was touched by how many of them stopped by my RIP Gweniever thread to offer condolences.

Thank you for reminding me. I had the screen open to post in that yesterday but then was called away and didn't make it back online.

But what you say is so true. I notice and feel closer to all the people I played with in that game too. Here's hoping we can be in another game together sometime, SCL. Promise I won't go for your head like it was made of gold.

[Dragoness]

Yaay! They got another one! Welcome, Rachm Qoch, you scummy scum.

So that means that if scum hasn't already recruited, tonight they pretty much have to... right? So tomorrow will be 6 town/2 scum? Should be very interesting.

[Idle Thoughts]

I'm about 95 percent sure they haven't recruited based on things I was told, but who knows?

Thing is, I think tonight we'll have a no-kill in the game which would mean one of three things. Either they (A) would try hitting tiral (which makes NO sense at all since she all of confessed to being the Doc), (B) recruit someone (which everyone will probably think was tirial the next Day) or (C) vote to not kill anyone (and again, have everyone think that tirial was possibly recruited).

I don't think, IF B was the actual case, that they'd recruit tirial anymore. I think they'd recruit someone else if they recruited anyone at all. Because the next day, most might probably think tirial was it anyway and might go for her head.

And C would be good too, because again, it saves their recruitment, yet would show up as a no-kill and possibly still puts suspicion on tirial being recruited. So again, people might go for her head.


In any case, if there is a no-kill this Night, it would prove, in my mind, that recruitment hasn't happened yet and that (if it had just then, going with B) that it wasn't tirial.



Um. Did everyone understand all that? :p I tend to be very, very wordy, hahaha. I'm far too analytical sometimes.

[Dragoness]

or (C) vote to not kill anyone (and again, have everyone think that tirial was possibly recruited).

I can't see this happening- because in that case, there would be only one scum left, and far too much chance that the Town might get lucky and the game ends there. But I also agree that the smart scum won't recruit tirial now.

[sachertorte]

Wow. What an interesting late day session. tirial was very good in pointing out Lemur's keenness in lynching a roleclaiming doctor. That alone should have saved tirial, but the town wasn't paying very close attention.

Wooo-hooo...

But, did you flip the coin like you should have, Gadarene?
This statement is so scummy. 1) the vote wasn't a tie. 2) as town, second guessing a mafia lynch makes no sense. If I hadn't already concluded DiggitCamara was scum, I'd be thinking it now.

Rachm and Diggit were really dancing the scum dance late that day. They switched their votes like mad to get someone other than Rachm lynched. Worse, they went after tirial! Someone everyone agrees could only be scum by recruitment. The town knows that recruitment is only a possibility and wrongly lynching tirial would be a huge mistake. Better to go after full-game scum at this point and look at tirial later. Town knows this; town feels this. Only scum would think otherwise.

While I had maintained that the best scum strategy is to recruit tonight now that there is only one scum left, I think the confusion over three no-kill nights in a row opens the door to not recruiting now in order to feed the paranoia that tirial was recruited. Scum absolutely cannot vote no kill, because the town will read this as a recruitment. But if scum does a normal kill tonight, he moves towards winning, gains the possibility of the town lynching tirial, but risks getting lynched himself.

The good doctor absolutely must NOT self protect tonight. If I were the doctor, I'd protect Millit. On the off chance that scum choose to kill, tirial has a better chance at a block by protecting someone else.

On second thought, I think the town will pretty much believe tirial is town now that she (he?) got Rachm and reject the notion of recruitment. Scum strategy must be a recruitment tonight.

[Gadarene]

sachertorte:
Mistakes happen and quite frankly, Gaderene probably shouldn't have posted that post about your post.

True. Also true that (a) I probably should have subbed Idle out the second that happened, and (b) Idle shouldn't beat himself up over it.

I do wish it hadn't happened, but it was ultimately my fault, not his.

[SnakesCatLady]

Mistakes happen. I do want a place in the next game, though, 'cause Idle Thoughts was the ringleader for my lynching when he was already dead!

[Clockwork Jackal]

Watching this game has been really interesting and informative. Now, what I want to know is, when the mafia recruit, do you think there will be a detectable change in posting style for the recruit? If there is, I wonder what form it'll take?

[sachertorte]

I do wish it hadn't happened, but it was ultimately my fault, not his.

Whoops. My statement about Gadarene's post about Idle Thoughts's post wasn't meant to place blame on Gadarene or anyone else. I actually appreciated the post, because it gave us something to talk about.

[sachertorte]

Question for Gadarene:

How are you handling recruitment? Does recruitment end the night, meaning the recruit does not have the opportunity to discuss with the mafia before the next day begins? Or can the recruit chat that night?

[Gadarene]

Question for Gadarene:

How are you handling recruitment? Does recruitment end the night, meaning the recruit does not have the opportunity to discuss with the mafia before the next day begins? Or can the recruit chat that night?

The night ends once the recruit has confirmed their recruitment. However, they are given immediate access to the Mafia boards and can obviously peruse them throughout the Day.

(By the way, I'm pretty sure that Diggit's comment that everyone is jumping on was just a joke playing off Rachm's name, although I'm not sure how.)

[sachertorte]

(By the way, I'm pretty sure that Diggit's comment that everyone is jumping on was just a joke playing off Rachm's name, although I'm not sure how.)

I don't understand what you are trying to say here. The only way I can make sense of your statement is if you're trying to tell us that Diggit isn't scum, so his comment only makes sense as some weird joke.

[sachertorte]

I think it's time to talk about Masons. The masons have nearly a majority of the town. (assuming 3 masons). If the game started with 4 masons then the game is over.

If 3 masons:
If mafia recruited mason, what is the win condition of the mason? Since the mafia-mason can win with the masons, the game is basically over with a mason only win (assuming 3 masons).
Mason Endgame: Town lynches mafia, which is really easy since the mason-mafia knows who mafia is, then mason-mafia nightkills a not-doctor/not-mason townie. Masons have a majority and win the game.

If mafia recruited vanilla town (or doctor) then there is still the chance for a mafia win, but the ability of the mason's to avoid role claiming and nightkills is pretty much the only thing that's stopping what was a fairly pro-mafia development in this game. Mafia needs to kill a mason tonight to stay in the game.

[Lemur866]

Well, there are 7 players left. Assuming 4 mafia from the start that leaves one mafia, one recruited mafia, Either 2 or 3 masons, 1 doctor, and 1 or 2 vanilla. This depends on whether the recruit was a mason or not.

We can pretty much take as given that the masons aren't going to get lynched, since it would require both mafia, tirial, and the vanilla townie. Any mason facing lynch is just gonna role claim and it will be believed because any liar would be exposed by the real masons quick as boiled asparagus.

[Gadarene]

I don't understand what you are trying to say here. The only way I can make sense of your statement is if you're trying to tell us that Diggit isn't scum, so his comment only makes sense as some weird joke.

I thought that somebody --- Hatl Bristotn, maybe --- had commented early on about Rachtm having the name of some character in literature or something that had to do with choosing (or knowing) who's supposed to die. That was the context in which I interpreted Diggitt's comment, which works whether or not he's scum.

I don't think the comment makes any sense whatsoever on its face if he's scum or citizen, frankly.

[sachertorte]

This game just doesn't want to end does it?

I'm wondering why Hal Briston is so keen on Blaster Master. His reasoning seems entirely based on voting pattern rather than vote reasoning. I don't like it. Then again, I'm biased against DiggitCamara.

[Dragoness]

Wow, how did this thread end up on page 3? We have been lax. I don't know how BlasterMaster will ever find us.

Sorry Blaster, hard luck.

[SnakesCatLady]

This game just doesn't want to end does it?

I'm wondering why Hal Briston is so keen on Blaster Master. His reasoning seems entirely based on voting pattern rather than vote reasoning. I don't like it. Then again, I'm biased against DiggitCamara.

In my opinion vote reasoning doesn't mean squat if your votes don't back it up. It's one thing to talk about scum, but you have to vote against them to lynch them.

[Blaster Master]

Funny how the stuff I actually would have done were I pro-town (like voting Percy, and drawing attention to the nesta/Hal thing) was all the evidence used against me, and all the stuff I deliberately did as scum (like fanning the Lightnin' and SCL lynches) went either completely unnoticed or I was easily able to weasel out of.

I guess that means next time I play scum, I need to be MORE like that, because apparently my townie play looks scummy.

[sachertorte]

Well, I was completely wrong about DiggitCamara. I still say his day two behavior was really scummy, but I wasn't very good about looking past my bias once I had considered him scum.

How about Hal? I haven't been reading the thread as closely anymore, but did anyone else find the accusation of Blaster Master a bit sudden? I can sort of see it for Blaster Masters Hal/nesta thing, but Hal was really on the rampage. Specifically, I'm concerned by Hal's statement that if he were wrong about Blaster Master, he would willingly get lynched the next day. No townie could be that certain about Blaster Master being scum. Only scum could be certain that Blaster Master was scum. So this makes me think Hal knew Blaster Master was scum because Hal was recruited. The problem with this theory, is why would the recruit go after scum so hard? Crazy gambit? Maybe Hal is a mason going for a mason win?
I don't know. But without much evidence so far as to who the recruit is, Hal is at the top of my list for now.

[Omi no Kami]

This has been bugging me as the game nears the endpoint... could someone with a lot of Mafia experience explain to me how the option to Recruit isn't totally unbalanced? I love the way it adds oodles of paranoia to gameplay, but in a close game like this one doesn't it make the game practically unwinable for town? If on the night the second to last mobster is lynched the last mobster uses his Recruit, it should be almost impossible for town to accurately figure out who has changed sides within the next day or two.

Is that the point, to give Mafia a trump card in close games?

[Blaster Master]

Well, I was completely wrong about DiggitCamara. I still say his day two behavior was really scummy, but I wasn't very good about looking past my bias once I had considered him scum.

How about Hal? I haven't been reading the thread as closely anymore, but did anyone else find the accusation of Blaster Master a bit sudden? I can sort of see it for Blaster Masters Hal/nesta thing, but Hal was really on the rampage. Specifically, I'm concerned by Hal's statement that if he were wrong about Blaster Master, he would willingly get lynched the next day. No townie could be that certain about Blaster Master being scum. Only scum could be certain that Blaster Master was scum. So this makes me think Hal knew Blaster Master was scum because Hal was recruited. The problem with this theory, is why would the recruit go after scum so hard? Crazy gambit? Maybe Hal is a mason going for a mason win?
I don't know. But without much evidence so far as to who the recruit is, Hal is at the top of my list for now.

Well, I'm quite certain that he is a mason, which narrows down his initial pool considerably at this point, but as to why he saw me more suspicious than Diggit... I cannot explain. Going that hard after scum seems to exonerate people is this town, and he started his tirade before the likely recruitment (I'm going not going to say when it happened), he had to continue because he either was still town and still thought that, or he was recruited and it would make him look bad if he stopped, regardless of who got lynched (me or Diggit). If he is the recruit, he's playing perfectly. :D

[Blaster Master]

This has been bugging me as the game nears the endpoint... could someone with a lot of Mafia experience explain to me how the option to Recruit isn't totally unbalanced? I love the way it adds oodles of paranoia to gameplay, but in a close game like this one doesn't it make the game practically unwinable for town? If on the night the second to last mobster is lynched the last mobster uses his Recruit, it should be almost impossible for town to accurately figure out who has changed sides within the next day or two.

Is that the point, to give Mafia a trump card in close games?

I don't have a lot of experience, but it's my understanding that it's not used very often. But it IS powerful. I think another way to look at it would be "Do we start with 5-6 mafia, or do we start with fewer, forcibly give up a night kill, and let them choose one more at will?" If you lower the numbers appropriately, they come out about even.

In this case, all it really does is "reset" the game with fewer people, since in a 7 person game, 2 mafia is appropriate, then it was just fine yesterday, and the town is actually well ahead, especially since the recruit makes the masons meaningless (since even they don't know if one of them was recruited).

[sachertorte]

Oh yeah, Masons. I forgot that maybe DiggitCamara and Hal could both be masons, which would better explain Hal's hard push for Blaster Master. Really, there are many possiblities, but that's one I hadn't thought of before.

Omi, if you read pages 1 and 2 of this thread, we talked quite a bit about recruitment being overpowered. The specific problem I had was determining a pro-town strategy for the Cop with recruitment a possiblity. Also there was the issue with mason claims and recruitment, which amazingly did not come up in this game at all since the masons managed to neither get killed or have to role claim.

[Gadarene]

Also there was the issue with mason claims and recruitment, which amazingly did not come up in this game at all since the masons managed to neither get killed or have to role claim.

That's pretty wild, isn't it?

[Blaster Master]

That's pretty wild, isn't it?
Yeah, well, that wouldn't have happened if I'd gotten my suggestion on at least one specific occassion. :(




A little off topic, but since I think I'm still next in line, I'm going to be drafting my set up for the next mafia game and probably pop in for some ideas on a few roles. I've been churning it in my brain on and off for several weeks now. :D

[Idle Thoughts]

Can't wait, Blaster.

[SnakesCatLady]

Me either, Blaster. I got killed by a zombie, so doesn't that make me a star?

[sachertorte]

I think I'm still next in line,

fluiddruid mentioned you were a few weeks ago. I've been waiting (not so) patiently for someone to finally win this one.

I want in!

[Blaster Master]

I want in!

If you want me to save you a spot. PM me, so I can keep track of it.

That said, I can't save too many spots, because I don't want to have too many seats reserved before sign-ups (why have sign ups if most of the seats are already filled?), and I don't want to propogate the image that the mafia games are cliquish, which is hurting the case with TPTB in getting a game forum or letting us have more than one at a time here from now on.

[Blaster Master]

If you want me to save you a spot. PM me, so I can keep track of it.

That said, I can't save too many spots, because I don't want to have too many seats reserved before sign-ups (why have sign ups if most of the seats are already filled?), and I don't want to propogate the image that the mafia games are cliquish, which is hurting the case with TPTB in getting a game forum or letting us have more than one at a time here from now on.

Erm... FTR, I already got 8 responses, so I won't reserve any more spots prior to signups... except for SCL (since you already expressed interest, if you still are, PM me), and Mal (if he's interested at all).

That should still leave plenty of open slots for sign-ups.

[Gadarene]

I forget, Blaster, am I reserved? If not, no biggie, although I'd love to play if there's room.

[Lemur866]

Finally we got a mason! Jimminy Cricket, I was beginning to think that with the vauge references to the number of masons, that number could be zero. I suppose that "one" is functionally equivalent to zero, but still.

Anyway, given that Tirial is the doctor, and the most likely number of remaining masons is 2, there must be only 1 vanilla townie left, and one recruit scum. It's getting down to the wire here.

[storyteller0910]

Finally we got a mason! Jimminy Cricket, I was beginning to think that with the vauge references to the number of masons, that number could be zero. I suppose that "one" is functionally equivalent to zero, but still.

Anyway, given that Tirial is the doctor, and the most likely number of remaining masons is 2, there must be only 1 vanilla townie left, and one recruit scum. It's getting down to the wire here.

Just gave away a bit of an important thing, here, didn't you? :-)

[Scuba_Ben]

Anyway, given that Tirial is the doctor, and the most likely number of remaining masons is 2, there must be only 1 vanilla townie left, and one recruit scum. It's getting down to the wire here.Not necessarily. There could be 2 masons left -- one of whom is the recruit. That would leave Dr. T. and two Citizens.

For completeness, the good Doctor might be the recruit. Unlikely, but who knows?

I had no idea how to pick out Mafia all along. Now what do I look for to spot the recruit?

[Lemur866]

Well, that's a good question. I have to admit that I'd be completely stumped trying to pick the recruit if I wasn't a scum. I don't have any clue how they can ferret out the recruit except by leveraging the power of the masons. But if the recruit is one of the masons then they're going to have some trouble.

[sachertorte]

A mason is not the recruit. The recruited mafia killed a mason. If the recruit were a mason, the dead townie would be a non-mason, as there is no reason for a mason-mafia to kill mason. In other words, if a mason was recruited, that player would have been guaranteed a win by killing non-mason last night.

Therefore, the remaining masons (2) have to find the recruit among 3 townies.
The question is, will the remaining masons realize this, and will they trust each other?

ETA: The other game day, I mentioned that the doctor should protect Millit just in case the mafia chose to kill instead of recruit (slim chance, but hey). And now we see that Millit is dead, so I must have been right about something. But I can't remember why I thought Millit would be the target and therefore worth protecting.

[Lemur866]

Yeah, the masons are in a pickle because they can't communicate except openly, and they can't be sure that the other hasn't been recruited. Y'know, it would be funny if this game came down to two remaining players...the doctor and the recruit. The doc is invulnerable to night kills, so the game would be decided by a coin flip since the day lynch would be tied.

[NAF1138]

Yeah, the masons are in a pickle because they can't communicate except openly, and they can't be sure that the other hasn't been recruited. Y'know, it would be funny if this game came down to two remaining players...the doctor and the recruit. The doc is invulnerable to night kills, so the game would be decided by a coin flip since the day lynch would be tied.


That wouldn't be possible. Mafia wins when they equal the number of town. The minimum # of players you can have is 3.

[sachertorte]

Well, I'm think someone will notice that the night kill was a mason, and a mason recruit would mean that it was a mason-to-mason killing, which is against the win conditions. Too bad the mafia didn't recruit mason, becuase then the game would be over now in a spectacular twist of events!

ETA: Looks like tirial and I think alike. (except for that, should protect Millit thing)

[Lemur866]

That wouldn't be possible. Mafia wins when they equal the number of town. The minimum # of players you can have is 3.
But isn't that only because once that happens it is logically impossible for the mafia to lose anymore, since they can now openly day vote to kill the town with impunity? But if that player is the doc, then that doesn't apply any more.

Suppose you've got a situation where you've got the doc, a scum, and a townie. During the day vote the townie gets lynched. If the doc gets lynched, then the scum can night-kill the townie, so the game is over. But if the townie gets lynched then the doc self-protects.

[Millit the Frail]

A mason is not the recruit. The recruited mafia killed a mason. If the recruit were a mason, the dead townie would be a non-mason, as there is no reason for a mason-mafia to kill mason. In other words, if a mason was recruited, that player would have been guaranteed a win by killing non-mason last night.

Therefore, the remaining masons (2) have to find the recruit among 3 townies.
The question is, will the remaining masons realize this, and will they trust each other?

ETA: The other game day, I mentioned that the doctor should protect Millit just in case the mafia chose to kill instead of recruit (slim chance, but hey). And now we see that Millit is dead, so I must have been right about something. But I can't remember why I thought Millit would be the target and therefore worth protecting.


Why? Because I was freaking bullet-proof, that's why! Later in the game, I was practically trying to look scummy, because I was deathly afraid I'd be night-killed and blow it for the Masons. I almost said something to tirial about reconsidering a self-protect, but I figured that would totally blow it.

More later, I have a test tonight. :)

[Blaster Master]

A mason is not the recruit. The recruited mafia killed a mason. If the recruit were a mason, the dead townie would be a non-mason, as there is no reason for a mason-mafia to kill mason. In other words, if a mason was recruited, that player would have been guaranteed a win by killing non-mason last night.

Therefore, the remaining masons (2) have to find the recruit among 3 townies.
The question is, will the remaining masons realize this, and will they trust each other?

ETA: The other game day, I mentioned that the doctor should protect Millit just in case the mafia chose to kill instead of recruit (slim chance, but hey). And now we see that Millit is dead, so I must have been right about something. But I can't remember why I thought Millit would be the target and therefore worth protecting.

Actually, this isn't true, the masons can only get the mason only win IF all mafia are gone AND they OUTNUMBER the town (I asked this question of Gadarene specifically). Thus, prior to this night kill, with three masons, two town, and the doc, in order for a mason only victory, TWO townies have to be killed (because one of the scum is a mason, which would reduce their number to two). If the recruit were a mason, even if he targetted a non-mason, he'd have to hope that a mason didn't get lynched, or he couldn't win as a mason, only as a mafia. Further, by killing a mason, he would make it look LESS likely that a mason was recruited (why kill a fellow mason, right?). Besides, even if a mason COULD win by confessing and getting lynched, it would, at the very least, be against the spirit of the game, no? Since he'd win either way, why not make the masons earn it by finding you, or the mafia earn it by having recruited correctly.

That all said, I thought Millit was obviously a mason for some time (even without any knowledge I may have gained from the status of the recruit), so I'm not surprised since I'm going to keep my lips sealed on clues as to who was recruited, either way, I'm VERY interested in seeing how they try to ferret the remaining scum.

[sachertorte]

If the recruit were a mason, even if he targetted a non-mason, he'd have to hope that a mason didn't get lynched, or he couldn't win as a mason, only as a mafia.

With three masons and two non-masons, I think the mafia-mason doesn't have to rely on hope to keep the remaining masons alive. A non-mason night kill last night would have given the masons a majority of the town == MASON WIN.

What I mean is if a mason were recruited, the masons control both day lynch and night kill. That means they can take out all townies an leave the three masons. They lynch the mafia-mason and the masons win. I think this is pretty straightforward, and I don't see how it's against the 'spirit' of the game since the game rules clearly state that a recruited mason's loyalty is to masonhood first, mafia second. That's the risk mafia gets in recruiting a mason.

I can understand your feelings on the matter, however, you may be slightly biased since you are, well, scum.

[Blaster Master]

With three masons and two non-masons, I think the mafia-mason doesn't have to rely on hope to keep the remaining masons alive. A non-mason night kill last night would have given the masons a majority of the town == MASON WIN.
But IF the recruit were a mason, that would have been THREE non-masons last night, two masons, and the mason-mafia. If this is the case, if he kills a non-mason, they enter today 2 townies, 2 masons, and the recruit, meaning at least one more townie than a mason must die to produce a mason-only win because the masons have to outnumber and the recruit would have to be dead. And, seeing that a non-mason was killed, I'd expect the town would have suspected it was a mason that was recruited, and thus, started attacking the masons giving the whole town a 1/3 chance of winning, and a mason-only win impossible.

However, if he DOES attack a mason, I would have suspected the town would be fooled into thinking it wasn't a mason who was recruited and pretty much leading them off his trail. If THIS is the case, and the other mason doesn't realize this, then they're basically screwed.

If he was a non-mason, obviously, targetting a non-mason gives the masons complete control, and puts the fate of the entire game in how paranoid they are. They'd likely then go after non-townies then anyway at least once before targetting themselves. This still leaves about a 1/3 chance of a town win.

if he was a non-mason and targetted a mason, then it keeps the masons from having complete control, and, if the town over thinks it, it could look like the first case and they could end up lynching a mason.

Either way, knowing that have just about nothing to go on for the recruit, and that we were deliberately feeding them disinformation about our ideas for the last several days (though, I wish I'd had more time to get some of that in before I was lynched), it basically makes finding the recruit a crapshoot at this point.


I can understand your feelings on the matter, however, you may be slightly biased since you are, well, scum.

This is why if I do decide to have a recruit in my game (which is very probable), the mechanics will be different; specifically, making the mason equivalents un-recruitable.

[Lemur866]

The one thing I don't like about recruitment is that it can happen at the very end. Which means that there is just about no way for the townies to figure out who the recruit might be and are pretty much shooting in the dark.

One way around this would be to give the recruitment power to just one scum--the Godfather, or Alpha Wolf, or whatver. If the head scum gets lynched, the recruitment is lost too. This puts a lot more pressure on the scum to recruit earlier. And an early recruitment is a lot less powerful than a late recruitment, since the early recruit will now start leaving a scum paper trail, and also has to survive more day lynches.

[sachertorte]

But IF the recruit were a mason, that would have been THREE non-masons last night, two masons, and the mason-mafia. If this is the case, if he kills a non-mason, they enter today 2 townies, 2 masons, and the recruit, meaning at least one more townie than a mason must die to produce a mason-only win because the masons have to outnumber and the recruit would have to be dead. And, seeing that a non-mason was killed, I'd expect the town would have suspected it was a mason that was recruited, and thus, started attacking the masons giving the whole town a 1/3 chance of winning, and a mason-only win impossible.

Okay: assume a mason recruit and a non-mason kill last night. That leaves
2 masons
1 mason-mafia
2 townies

The day lynch is controlled by masons: 2 masons + 1 mason-mafia = 3 to 2 majority. It doesn't matter if the town suspects anything because they are powerless to stop it.

Then at night the mason-mafia kills the other townie, leaving
2 masons
1 mason-mafia

The mason-mafia roleclaims, and gets lynched. Mason win.

There is nothing town can do to stop this course of action.
There is nothing mafia-mafia can do either since they are all dead.

This is why if I do decide to have a recruit in my game (which is very probable), the mechanics will be different; specifically, making the mason equivalents un-recruitable.

Oh, an perhaps tie the recruitment to a particular player so that there is some expediency in using it and not waiting until the endgame for the recruitment. We had some good discussion in this thread about the recruitment and possible pitfalls that might be avoided. Letting the recruitment 'float' pretty much establishes a de facto unkillable mafia.

[Blaster Master]

The one thing I don't like about recruitment is that it can happen at the very end. Which means that there is just about no way for the townies to figure out who the recruit might be and are pretty much shooting in the dark.

One way around this would be to give the recruitment power to just one scum--the Godfather, or Alpha Wolf, or whatver. If the head scum gets lynched, the recruitment is lost too. This puts a lot more pressure on the scum to recruit earlier. And an early recruitment is a lot less powerful than a late recruitment, since the early recruit will now start leaving a scum paper trail, and also has to survive more day lynches.

Funny you should say that... that's exactly how I intend to do it, plus having more un-recruitable roles AND having a recruit blocker. So then if the scum do it too early, they have a high risk of failing. If they wait to long, they have a risk of losing it, so they have to find a good time around the middle to do it when they have an idea of what the roles are and who might be getting blocked.

[Blaster Master]

Okay: assume a mason recruit and a non-mason kill last night. That leaves
2 masons
1 mason-mafia
2 townies

The day lynch is controlled by masons: 2 masons + 1 mason-mafia = 3 to 2 majority. It doesn't matter if the town suspects anything because they are powerless to stop it.

Then at night the mason-mafia kills the other townie, leaving
2 masons
1 mason-mafia

The mason-mafia roleclaims, and gets lynched. Mason win.

There is nothing town can do to stop this course of action.
There is nothing mafia-mafia can do either since they are all dead.

Here the thing, though. If that were the case, you'd have two paranoid townies ready to lynch a mason, and two masons pretty sure there's one among them, but if that's the case then, why should they lynch a townie when they KNOW they're not going to get scum?

Plus, like I said, if the recruit is mafia, and get's it to a point where he's going to win either way, I would be very displeased to see the game come down to a scum claim and a lynch. He'll win either way, whether he claims or not, and he's already earned it by pulling off a successful night kill and anti-town lynch, so why not make the masons earn it, or the mafia earn it by seeing if they did a good job recruiting?

I dunno, a "hey, I'm mason, and I was recruited... lynch me!" just seems so anti-climatic. If I were to allow masons to be recruited, I'd set it so they'd be mod-killed immediately if they did that just because I think it's such poor form.

[sachertorte]

One way around this would be to give the recruitment power to just one scum--the Godfather, or Alpha Wolf, or whatver. If the head scum gets lynched, the recruitment is lost too. This puts a lot more pressure on the scum to recruit earlier. And an early recruitment is a lot less powerful than a late recruitment, since the early recruit will now start leaving a scum paper trail, and also has to survive more day lynches.

As you can see, I agree in general; but I would put the recruitment power on someone who is not immune from cop detection. This puts a bit more pressure to use the recruitment early, especially if recruitment power itself is cop detectable.

[sachertorte]

I dunno, a "hey, I'm mason, and I was recruited... lynch me!" just seems so anti-climatic. If I were to allow masons to be recruited, I'd set it so they'd be mod-killed immediately if they did that just because I think it's such poor form.

Mostly, I agree with you. I think a mason recruitment should have completely changed the player's alignment and win condition to mafia. Then we would not have the conflict of interest we are discussing now. No need to mod-kill (which itself probably should only be used very sparingly), just change the win condition and there is no motivation for masons and mason-mafia to collude.

However, as the rules are stated, the course of action I outlined is the optimal strategy for both mason and mason-mafia. I understand your distaste with collusion and the bizarre situation where masons lynching townies becomes the optimal strategy, but that's just the way the game worked out. I don't think Gadarene envisioned such a possibility. The incredible play/luck of the masons in not getting outed nor night killed was so unlikely! And it apparently didn't work out that way anyway as it looks like the mafia recruited a non-mason.

[sachertorte]

Oh, I should also add:
Blaster Master, Please don't include recruitment in your game. Imagine if tirial was the one recruited. He(she?) spent so much time and effort hunting down scum. How pissed would he be to put all that effort into winning the game for town only to lose as mafia because of recruitment? That would suck. At least, I wouldn't like it very much. Although, if recruitment happens early, this effect is less distasteful.

[Lemur866]

Yeah, that's another meta-game reason that late recruitment sucks. Especially if town is winning, and you've put in tons of effort for the town win, only now to find yourself on the losing side

[Blaster Master]

As you can see, I agree in general; but I would put the recruitment power on someone who is not immune from cop detection. This puts a bit more pressure to use the recruitment early, especially if recruitment power itself is cop detectable.

That's a good idea. I have a role that would be perfect for. One of the scum roles I'm toying with is one where he knows he's scum, but doesn't know he's this special role in which the one responsible for his death (chosen among all who voted to lynch him at random, possibly including other scum). The idea was to make scum think twice about jumping on bandwagons for their own kind, possibly resulting in a few more scum tells.

However, putting the recruitment power of him as well, or in place of that other power, instead of on the GF-equivalent would make the scum even more paranoid about using the power early by fear of losing it because they wouldn't know when. It would work just as well with the theme as well. Hmm...

[Blaster Master]

Yeah, that's another meta-game reason that late recruitment sucks. Especially if town is winning, and you've put in tons of effort for the town win, only now to find yourself on the losing side

Well, one way to address that might be to put a hard limit on when the recruit could happen (hey, it IS possible that the role with the recruit power could live to very near the end). Or to possibly allow the recruit, if the recruit isn't blocked, to choose between being recruited, or dying and reamining town-aligned.

[Millit the Frail]

This thread has been interesting. I can't wait to find out what was going on behind the scenes though the whole game.

Also, I was pretty sure I gave away my Masonry at a few points, but it wasn't until after the fact. I was a first-timer, so I had no idea what I could get away with. Also, I tried very hard to play as if I were vanilla town, to avoid tells. Therefore, when I was posting, I never tried to avoid talking about Masons. I figured that going ahead and being a little bit bold was a good strategy. We've all had different strategies, we Masons. I'm really interested to see how they handle this. I was hoping we'd all survive the night (don't know if tirial would have helped or not...she's sketching me out lately) and could mass role-claim. Or that we'd have an "inside man" who would turn on the Mafia and help us.

In this thread, I've seen Gadarene mention the general "tone" of town vs. Mafia several times. I don't know that I noticed it in anyone else, but I tried very hard to be genuine and transparent throughout, always saying what was on my mind. Is this what you were talking about, Gad? Looking back, I almost feel like you were talking about me. But then again, I feel like I've been a cipher in this game. My name has barely come up in this thread, and sometimes it was almost like I didn't exist in the game. Ah, well, good for the Masons, right?

[Blaster Master]

This thread has been interesting. I can't wait to find out what was going on behind the scenes though the whole game.

Also, I was pretty sure I gave away my Masonry at a few points, but it wasn't until after the fact. I was a first-timer, so I had no idea what I could get away with. Also, I tried very hard to play as if I were vanilla town, to avoid tells. Therefore, when I was posting, I never tried to avoid talking about Masons. I figured that going ahead and being a little bit bold was a good strategy. We've all had different strategies, we Masons. I'm really interested to see how they handle this. I was hoping we'd all survive the night (don't know if tirial would have helped or not...she's sketching me out lately) and could mass role-claim. Or that we'd have an "inside man" who would turn on the Mafia and help us.

In this thread, I've seen Gadarene mention the general "tone" of town vs. Mafia several times. I don't know that I noticed it in anyone else, but I tried very hard to be genuine and transparent throughout, always saying what was on my mind. Is this what you were talking about, Gad? Looking back, I almost feel like you were talking about me. But then again, I feel like I've been a cipher in this game. My name has barely come up in this thread, and sometimes it was almost like I didn't exist in the game. Ah, well, good for the Masons, right?

Well, since it doesn't matter now, I had a strong feeling you were a mason and that most of the rest of the town knew you were a mason. Either way, I think you did a good job because I never saw any significant doubt from anyone that you were not pro-town after the first day or two. OTOH, that could also mean that you didn't put your neck out on the line enough. I've never played a mason, but it would seem to me that because you have the safety net of being able to claim mason to avoid a lynch, one could use that to his advantage to try to trap scum. Then again, if not for the recruit, the lay-low method of play you all used here, it would have all but guaranteed a victory.

Still, that there's only five people remaining. I'm interested to see how the last two masons play. Will they wait for the town to discuss the likelihood of the recruit being a mason before claiming, or will they claim, each hoping the other wasn't the recruit, and try to take control, being fairly confident that the recruit is not a mason. IMO, I think the mason play today will pretty much make or break the game for the town. If the recruit isn't lynched today, the game swings back in the mafia's favor. :D

[sachertorte]

I'm baffled by how different DiggitCamara's logic operates from my own. I just don't see how he can think that mafia would recruit earlier than they needed to. To me, it seems pretty obvious that mafia would recruit when down to one, and the no kill night evidence supports that. Mafia choosing no kill is a really bad move for them, especially on the night that Diggit proposes because that no kill night gave the town an extra lynch before losing.

Also, I don't understand his fixation on Blaster Master's last post ("Looks like we're gonna lose".) He seems to think its a truthful declaration about the state of the game and the state of the mafia. I think it is simply an effort to imply that lynching him will lose the game for the town, and nothing more.

On Masons: As a non-player I didn't really pay attention to masons except for some comments that were then pointed out to me to be too obviously mason-oriented to be really a statement by a mason. So dead players, how do you identify a mason?

[SnakesCatLady]

On Masons: As a non-player I didn't really pay attention to masons except for some comments that were then pointed out to me to be too obviously mason-oriented to be really a statement by a mason. So dead players, how do you identify a mason?

I didn't really try to identify any Masons - I was more worried about identifying scum.

[Millit the Frail]

Well, since it doesn't matter now, I had a strong feeling you were a mason and that most of the rest of the town knew you were a mason. Either way, I think you did a good job because I never saw any significant doubt from anyone that you were not pro-town after the first day or two. OTOH, that could also mean that you didn't put your neck out on the line enough. I've never played a mason, but it would seem to me that because you have the safety net of being able to claim mason to avoid a lynch, one could use that to his advantage to try to trap scum. Then again, if not for the recruit, the lay-low method of play you all used here, it would have all but guaranteed a victory.

Still, that there's only five people remaining. I'm interested to see how the last two masons play. Will they wait for the town to discuss the likelihood of the recruit being a mason before claiming, or will they claim, each hoping the other wasn't the recruit, and try to take control, being fairly confident that the recruit is not a mason. IMO, I think the mason play today will pretty much make or break the game for the town. If the recruit isn't lynched today, the game swings back in the mafia's favor. :D

Yeah, I wonder, though--if it was obvious I was a Mason, why didn't you recruit me? I think recruiting a Mason at an earlier stage (ie when it didn't look like a Mason win had a chance of happening) would have been the way to go. I mean, it effectively destroys the only knowledge anyone in the town has, and if that Mason can lay low until the end, and ruin everything. If one of the Masons is the recruit (terribly unlikely, I think, but possible), then he or she could almost secure a Mafia win if he or she thinks it's more likely than a Mason win.

I bet you were cracking up when I posted my first long post about you being scum-tastic and then another about how NO ONE was paying attention to it. That was pretty frustrating. All in all, I posted about as much as I possibly could, but I felt like I had a very hard time getting noticed. I can't keep up with some of the very prolific posters. Starting the spreadsheet took some time, but updating it took about five minutes a day, if that. I think my difficulty in keeping up influenced my posting style a lot. I tried to say more outrageous stuff later in the game, to "stick my neck out" a little more. I didn't think it would be noticed as much as it was, apparently, so I showed my hand a little too much.

So here's my big question: is it a good thing to come out of the box being so pro-town? I kept feeling like I would be nightkilled simply because I was so unlynchable, but it never happened. (Maybe because I kept voting for townies?) And then I tried acting a little more sketchy, toward the end, but it didn't do me any good.

[sachertorte]

Think there is a somewhat legitimate fear that being vociferous will get a player lynched or night killed, so i understand Millit's decision to lay low. What really should happen is no one should lay low and everyone should be prolific. That way the power roles still have cover.

[Lemur866]

Well, there's a couple of people that have seemingly never been targeted, have never been serious contenders for lynching. I suspect those people are the masons. And this is because the masons never accuse each other. And since most of the lynch votes in this game (up until about the time I got lynched) were done by very low majorities, a simple block of masons voting against a non-mason is enough to protect any mason without being obvious. And they can do this without much fear, because if someone calls them on it they can just role-claim and therefore be protected.

[Blaster Master]

I'm baffled by how different DiggitCamara's logic operates from my own. I just don't see how he can think that mafia would recruit earlier than they needed to. To me, it seems pretty obvious that mafia would recruit when down to one, and the no kill night evidence supports that. Mafia choosing no kill is a really bad move for them, especially on the night that Diggit proposes because that no kill night gave the town an extra lynch before losing.

Actually, he is right, I posted my thought process to the mafia board about how to handle that night, and it was actually a lot more complicated than it may have seemed. I'm going to keep it veiled in case anyone is reading, but he is correct.

At that point, as far as the town is concerned, there were two possibilies: tirial was recruited at some point during the no-kill nights, and the recruit was unused.

If it's the first, that leaves 2 scum, 2 town, 3 mason, which means it requires 3 non-scum deaths to win. Further, given that the doctor was recruited, we'd be 100% sure the night kills would go through. Thus, we could afford 1 scum lynch, but it would be balanced out by a night kill, so I'll ignore that to make it simpler. That means if we kill that night, get a townie lynch, and another night kill, we go INTO the last day with a tie. Gadarene specifically said (when I asked him) that the game only ends if the town does not have a majority at the end of the day. IOW, killing that night would still mean a second townie lynch. Thus, a non-kill would obfuscate when the recruit took place, hopefully put it off of tirial, and we'd still win at the same time.

If it's the other way... well, obviously, the recruit took place then. But that's why I spent so much time talking about the recruit, because obviously there's only two cases that could be true about WHEN the recruit happened. Funny thing is, BOTH of them are using fabricated evidence to support their points.

[Blaster Master]

Yeah, I wonder, though--if it was obvious I was a Mason, why didn't you recruit me? I think recruiting a Mason at an earlier stage (ie when it didn't look like a Mason win had a chance of happening) would have been the way to go. I mean, it effectively destroys the only knowledge anyone in the town has, and if that Mason can lay low until the end, and ruin everything. If one of the Masons is the recruit (terribly unlikely, I think, but possible), then he or she could almost secure a Mafia win if he or she thinks it's more likely than a Mason win.

I'll explain why you weren't recruited, at least from my perspective. Considering that I was fairly sure you were a mason, I recommended AGAINST your recruitment based on that. I don't think I got all my thoughts out in the mafia forum, but I thought that, depending on how the game played out, if the town decided that it was a mason that was recruited, you'd be the first to get lynched because you seemed to have less suspicion than anyone else. I figured that if a mason should be recruited, it should be the one the town would least likely suspect would be recruited.

I bet you were cracking up when I posted my first long post about you being scum-tastic and then another about how NO ONE was paying attention to it. That was pretty frustrating. All in all, I posted about as much as I possibly could, but I felt like I had a very hard time getting noticed. I can't keep up with some of the very prolific posters. Starting the spreadsheet took some time, but updating it took about five minutes a day, if that. I think my difficulty in keeping up influenced my posting style a lot. I tried to say more outrageous stuff later in the game, to "stick my neck out" a little more. I didn't think it would be noticed as much as it was, apparently, so I showed my hand a little too much.

If it makes you feel better, when you started catching on to what I was doing much earlier than anyone else, it had me a bit worried. Fortuneately, there was enough noise around other people at the time to keep it down. That's one of the things though about this game. It can be hard to get noticed if you're not completely over involved in the game. Even in this one, where I felt like I was a fairly prominent player earlier on, as my time got more involved in other happenings in life, I lost a lot of my influence which made it more and more difficult to dispell my suspicion. OTOH, some loud people just draw more and more suspicion as time goes on. Then again, this was only my second game, so... who knows?

So here's my big question: is it a good thing to come out of the box being so pro-town? I kept feeling like I would be nightkilled simply because I was so unlynchable, but it never happened. (Maybe because I kept voting for townies?) And then I tried acting a little more sketchy, toward the end, but it didn't do me any good.
Yes and no. I think it's important to play how you want to play, and for everyone to have their own style. I see a lot of similarities between this game and various poker strategies. Some players are tight, some players are loose, some players are loud, some players are friendly, some players are mathematical, some are analytical, some play on gut and reads, etc. If everyone was a lurker, the game would be boring. If everyone was loud and aggressive, it would be frustrating, if not impossible, to follow the game. If everyone were mathematical, we'd miss all the obvious analytical tells... etc.

I think the most important point is to pick your style and be consistent. For instance, if you start out loud and aggressive, if you change, you draw suspicion, which is what happened to me. While your votes and points may have been all over the place, at least from my perspective, your style was fairly consistent, which I imagine is why no one really suspected you enough to even TRY to build a case.

[sachertorte]

Gadarene specifically said (when I asked him) that the game only ends if the town does not have a majority at the end of the day.

This is basically where everything goes to pot. If the win conditions are not well understood by everyone, then different conclusions are bound to occur. I was under the impression that if mafia ever reached 50%, they win, which greatly changes the impact of a no kill on the night in question.

Interesting. Under the 'can only win at the end of a day' rule, the added benefit of no kill from the mafia perspective is that it maximizes the number of town alive to better hide the scum without changing the number of chances for the town.

Is this rule typical? It seems out of sync with the other games and needlessly confusing.

[sachertorte]

Wait a second. The end-of-day endgame condition explains how a no kill the night before last could be a plausible mafia move, but it doesn't explain why mafia would recruit so early in the game. Was tirial really that good at out guessing the mafia that they felt they needed to recruit?
We know that the mafia targetted Idle Thoughts on one of the three no kill nights, and we know the mafia was not yet down to their last member yet. The only motive would be to neutralize the doctor. Kind of risky though isn't it? Isn't it better to save recruitment and have an unkillable mafia than stop the doctor? I guess after two blocks in a row, the mafia might have been antsy, but it still seems like recruiting late is the best option for the mafia.

[Blaster Master]

Wait a second. The end-of-day endgame condition explains how a no kill the night before last could be a plausible mafia move, but it doesn't explain why mafia would recruit so early in the game. Was tirial really that good at out guessing the mafia that they felt they needed to recruit?
We know that the mafia targetted Idle Thoughts on one of the three no kill nights, and we know the mafia was not yet down to their last member yet. The only motive would be to neutralize the doctor. Kind of risky though isn't it? Isn't it better to save recruitment and have an unkillable mafia than stop the doctor? I guess after two blocks in a row, the mafia might have been antsy, but it still seems like recruiting late is the best option for the mafia.

I won't comment too heavily, simply because I know what happened. But one way to use the recruit isn't as a last ditch effort to try to keep from losing, but instead as a method to neutralize the powers of a player that would be difficult to kill. Imagine if the detective hadn't been killed, but it was likely that the mafia knew who was the detective, but couldn't target him without risking a block. Then, they not only neutralize the detective, but can use it to find the doctor and the masons. Similarly, if the doctor is discovered, he can be neutralized. If it means that a few night kills down the line might be prevented, it could be worth it. Especially in this case, where the mafia did a good job confusing the town on when it took place. If it did happen before, the fact that there are people thinking it didn't, means it would have been a successful use of the recruit.

[Blaster Master]

This is basically where everything goes to pot. If the win conditions are not well understood by everyone, then different conclusions are bound to occur. I was under the impression that if mafia ever reached 50%, they win, which greatly changes the impact of a no kill on the night in question.

Interesting. Under the 'can only win at the end of a day' rule, the added benefit of no kill from the mafia perspective is that it maximizes the number of town alive to better hide the scum without changing the number of chances for the town.

Is this rule typical? It seems out of sync with the other games and needlessly confusing.

That's why I asked, the way I interpretted it didn't seem like the rules I expected, and the clarification greatly affected the mafia strategy over the last couple of nights. Even though it's a harder win condition, it actualy helped us out.

[sachertorte]

But one way to use the recruit isn't as a last ditch effort to try to keep from losing, but instead as a method to neutralize the powers of a player that would be difficult to kill.
I agree that using recruitment to get the cop is a good idea. I guess I just disagree with the impact of trying to get the doctor. The cop is getting information every night with 100% accuracy. The doctor has a 1/N chance to block a kill.
In my opinion:
Cop == recruit now
Doctor == recruit later and kill some one else

[Millit the Frail]

Gadarene, is there any chance tirial has the information that Idle had? I just remembered the whole business with her analyzing those lists a few days ago, and it seemed to come out of nowhere. You don't have to tell me if she's the recruit or not (of course), but is there any chance she has inside info? If the players knew about Idle's accidental inside info, then I bet they'd jump all over tirial for that.

Anyway....I think today is going to be the most crucial day of the game. It could end today, or it could swing in any of three directions very quickly. It looks like people might be on to the Masons, which is unfortunate, but it's getting harder and harder to hide in such a small group. If it hadn't been me last night, odds are, it would have been another Mason. It's amazing we lasted so long in the first place!

What I think they should do right now: tirial offered to protect a Mason overnight, which would theoretically get the Masons to make sure she's not lynched today. That looks scarily like an evil ploy. She's appealing to them in a very heavy-handed way, but it looks weird to me. Why would she say that two Masons are more valuable than one doctor? I don't buy that--she can still use her powers to play chicken and try to prevent a nightkill, which could buy an extra day. Make sure she does get lynched.

[Millit the Frail]

Yes and no. I think it's important to play how you want to play, and for everyone to have their own style. I see a lot of similarities between this game and various poker strategies. Some players are tight, some players are loose, some players are loud, some players are friendly, some players are mathematical, some are analytical, some play on gut and reads, etc. If everyone was a lurker, the game would be boring. If everyone was loud and aggressive, it would be frustrating, if not impossible, to follow the game. If everyone were mathematical, we'd miss all the obvious analytical tells... etc.

I think the most important point is to pick your style and be consistent. For instance, if you start out loud and aggressive, if you change, you draw suspicion, which is what happened to me. While your votes and points may have been all over the place, at least from my perspective, your style was fairly consistent, which I imagine is why no one really suspected you enough to even TRY to build a case.

Thanks for your comments. It'll be awesome to get everyone back together at the end of the game and see what we were all thinking at different points. I do think I could have played better, so I'll use that next time....if I ever find time for a game again! Actually, I would really like to try playing scum sometime. It's totally random, so I can't be Mafia on purpose, but a few more games, and the odds will be with me.

Also, I just noticed that tirial's reasoning in the post where she votes for Diggit can't possibly be right. I think she's really trying to do something brilliant if she's scum, but she doesn't quite have everything nailed down. If she's not lying, however, she's coming to a completely off-the-wall conclusion. I don't think she's that imperceptive, so I'm betting it's the former and that she simply can't construct an airtight story. But she's trying VERY hard.

[Blaster Master]

What I think they should do right now: tirial offered to protect a Mason overnight, which would theoretically get the Masons to make sure she's not lynched today. That looks scarily like an evil ploy. She's appealing to them in a very heavy-handed way, but it looks weird to me. Why would she say that two Masons are more valuable than one doctor? I don't buy that--she can still use her powers to play chicken and try to prevent a nightkill, which could buy an extra day. Make sure she does get lynched.

To be honest, I'm quite surprised that "deal" wasn't her undoing. At best, she's honest and just trying to keep two pro-town players in the game, but she'd definitively out the Masons to do that, and like Diggit said, if there is a kill it's "Oops, well, I was protecting the other mason" and if there's no kill it still doesn't prove she wasn't recruited. At worst, she's scum, trying to out the Masons so she can pick which one to kill (or not kill) to try to minimize getting lynched tomorrow.

I also have to say I'm thoroughly befuddled, yet again, by her logic that indicts Hal and Diggit. If she protected Hal, then I don't see how Diggit not thinking it was the recruit proves he's scum by her protecting Hal. I kind of see where her mind is going, but it just doesn't logically hold together unless she can prove that she succeeded in blocking. And even then, she was to explain why she suddenly goes from thinking the recruit happened two Days ago to having happened however many days ago, and explaining why we would have recruited Diggit over her.

...Wow, good stuff.

[Blaster Master]

Thanks for your comments. It'll be awesome to get everyone back together at the end of the game and see what we were all thinking at different points. I do think I could have played better, so I'll use that next time....if I ever find time for a game again! Actually, I would really like to try playing scum sometime. It's totally random, so I can't be Mafia on purpose, but a few more games, and the odds will be with me.

Also, I just noticed that tirial's reasoning in the post where she votes for Diggit can't possibly be right. I think she's really trying to do something brilliant if she's scum, but she doesn't quite have everything nailed down. If she's not lying, however, she's coming to a completely off-the-wall conclusion. I don't think she's that imperceptive, so I'm betting it's the former and that she simply can't construct an airtight story. But she's trying VERY hard.

Well I'll, hopefully, be starting up a game soon. I'd offer to make you scum, since you wanna try it... but then anyone reading this thread would know. :D

I'm interested to see what's going to happen after the thread ends too. Of course, there seems to be more and more to the behind-the-scenes all the time. Hmm...

[sachertorte]

What I don't understand is why there weren't any mason claims. I can see not wanting to claim both masons, but what the town should have done was have one mason claim, and have tirial protect that one mason. The other mason is hidden and could get offed in the night, but there would be at least one confirmed mason left for the last day. Now the town has to worry about a mason dying tonight leaving no way to confirm masonhood.

I can't really see why tirial is still so keen on lynching Diggit. I also think that if Hal is the recruit his 'sorry I've been busy' play is an atrocious way to play the game, especially the endgame.

[tirial]

Well I'll, hopefully, be starting up a game soon. I'd offer to make you scum, since you wanna try it... but then anyone reading this thread would know. :D

I'm interested to see what's going to happen after the thread ends too. Of course, there seems to be more and more to the behind-the-scenes all the time. Hmm...

Yep: try being the doctor who gets the GM telling them in a PM that they should roleclaim - sorry Gad did I completely ignore you resulting in Rachm getting lynched not me :D ?

As far as I can tell there's been a nasty pro-scum bias in Gad's decisions from early on.
1) Idle stayed in the game after getting info he shouldn't have had (I'll read this thread later to get the story on that). Apparently he was declined a sub.
2) When I suspected and PM'd Gad he refused to say in-game "Idle thoughts was removed from the game due to metagame reasons" and instead told me I should roleclaim at a time it would have got me lynched (co-incidentally instead of a scum).
3) Declined a sub request when I found out about Idle, and instead left me playing handcuffed.
4) Changed the rules to remove a coin toss that would have given the town a 50/50 chance of having a block tonight regardless of Diggit's scum status.
5) When immediately after that I asked for a sub again he agreed to sub me four hours before the end of the day. Yeah, that's really fair on my replacement.

So we've got two of the strongest town players playing handcuffed, an anti-town rule change that removed the chance of a block, an unannounced kill of two town players in one night (which apparently the scum were consulted on) and a player with extra knowledge allowed to stay in, biasing the other town players.

I am less than happy.

We won't get into Rachm's outright lie about "Nothing happened to Idle" - as you were scum the PMs I got when I asked about Idle indicated you were told the full story before he was taken out of the game, and before you posted that.

Oh BTW Idle I didn't spot you because you were "too good". I caught you because I have a background of 20-odd years in gaming and you suddenly went quiet and came back acting like the peope I used to bust. You see I quit gaming two years ago except with a small group, because I got too good (I can solve most scenarios very quickly). As a result I kept being asked to act as a "ringer" to catch cheating refs and players. Its a fast way to get jaded, but also to learn to spot the players whose dice float corner up in coke, who've got fresh eraser marks on their sheet, pencil shavings hidden in a drinks can or who definitely know things they shouldn't. I am, to be honest, glad it was an accident and not cheating but I still don't see why you stayed in the game.

(I am also annoyed with myself for being nice because if I'd used the word "Cheat" before the word "Recruit" I'd have got the story a lot sooner and not wasted time chasing you, which eventually resulted in my lynch. Unfortunately I didn't think there was anyway you would do that, particularly staying in after finding stuff out - it ruins the challenge of the game.)

Thank you for reminding me why I quit gaming, Gadarene. Once Mafia IV's over its going to be a long long time before I play anything else.

[Gadarene]

Millit:
Gadarene, is there any chance tirial has the information that Idle had? I just remembered the whole business with her analyzing those lists a few days ago, and it seemed to come out of nowhere. You don't have to tell me if she's the recruit or not (of course), but is there any chance she has inside info? If the players knew about Idle's accidental inside info, then I bet they'd jump all over tirial for that.

I don't believe so.

[tirial]

I can't really see why tirial is still so keen on lynching Diggit. I also think that if Hal is the recruit his 'sorry I've been busy' play is an atrocious way to play the game, especially the endgame.
That's why I think its Diggit, simply because I don't think anyone would play that disgracefully. If it is Hal his continued absences would be on a par for the level of play I've come to expect from this game.

Whether the scum knew it or not, they've had help, which makes any win a bit worthless (not their fault perhaps, but annoying). I'd like to play them again in a game where the GM is neutral simply to see how they play stand-alone - I think it would be much more enjoyable. Those players also in mafia IV for example are playing an interesting and very good game.

[Gadarene]

I'd like to play them again in a game where the GM is neutral simply to see how they play stand-alone - I think it would be much more enjoyable.

Emphasis added. I take exception to this.

[tirial]

Gadarene, is there any chance tirial has the information that Idle had? I just remembered the whole business with her analyzing those lists a few days ago, and it seemed to come out of nowhere. You don't have to tell me if she's the recruit or not (of course), but is there any chance she has inside info? If the players knew about Idle's accidental inside info, then I bet they'd jump all over tirial for that.
No, but I twigged Idle's post style changed. Then when he wasn't the recruit I checked and it had still changed, which made me think "Cheat". I PM'd Gad and Idle who gave me the basics, that he somehow got information he shouldn't have done, but remained in the game, which Idle thought he should not have done.

I haven't had a chance to read the thread, but I'd bet it was a player listing, and overcompensating Idle went after someone he knew to be town but not a power role to avoid giving the town an advantage and accidentally started a bandwagon.

How did I twig the scum I caught? Twenty years in gaming and a career that's been at times not a million miles removed from this game. For what its worth, I wasn't sure about Blastermaster so I went after Diggit, I'm not actually that sure about the recruit, and I may have got the masons wrong.

I actually started with my list of levels, figured the three most likely scum on there, picked the most likely (Rachm) and looked for an excuse to narrow it down to one or two that the town could follow, and I could use to go after Rachm. Idle's list and the stuff about "one in each" that he started were the fastest excuse I could think of that the town might buy. (What should I have done, said Rachm is 98% scum, Blastermaster 76% and Diggit 75%, so vote Rachm - who'd have gone for that?)

I suppose I should apologise to Rachm actually - I didn't care if what I was saying was true or not, but I'd figured you were scum pretty early and by that point in the game I just wanted to throw enough at you to make it finally stick.

[tirial]

Emphasis added. I take exception to this.
Take all the exception you like.

When have any of your more unorthodox decisions actually harmed the scum in any way compared to the damage they did to the town?

[Gadarene]

When have any of your more unorthodox decisions actually harmed the scum in any way compared to the damage they did to the town?

Well, let's see. My fuck-ups:

1) Not subbing Idle out immediately once I discovered that he had accidentally read part of the forbidden thread.

2) Mistakenly concluding that Idle had blocked his own kill, thus keeping him alive for three Days until I mod-killed him.

3) Deciding sua sponte to extend the Day time as a result of the tie on Day 10, rather than having an endgame lynch decided by random.org.

Any others? I'm sure there are, but frankly I've forgotten.

I'm not sure how any of those affirmatively damaged the town so much as they (at least the first two) damaged the game. The scum were just as prejudiced by Idle's newfound knowledge and his not being dead than the town was. At least until Idle decided to use that knowledge to go on determined crusades against the people he had (with little evidence, as you'll see when you read the offending information to begin with) assumed to be scum.

You're an extremely perceptive player. But you surely do have your lapses and your blind spots at times, and the issue of bias is one of them.

[Gadarene]

I'll say, by the way, as I have previously, that fuck-up #1 was absolutely unforgiveable, and it broke the game. So...my bad. I won't be playing or GMing again.

[tirial]

I'll say, by the way, as I have previously, that fuck-up #1 was absolutely unforgiveable, and it broke the game. So...my bad. I won't be playing or GMing again.
Actually, hate to break it to you, but changing the rules part way through is the unforgiveable one.

[Gadarene]

What do you want me to say, tirial? You got the result you wanted regardless. How would it have changed if I had done random.org on Saturday following the tie vote and your name had come up?

I'm sorry. Bad, bad me. Incompetence doesn't equal bias.

(By the way, I've clearly learned my lesson about putting information, however cryptic, into the forbidden thread. But I will say that the last Day or so has, to a careful observer, been interesting to watch for reasons beyond the obvious ones.)

[storyteller0910]

Actually, hate to break it to you, but changing the rules part way through is the unforgiveable one.

Oh, for... you know what? I wanted to stay out of this, I really did, but are you serious? Are we really using the word unforgiveable to describe well-intentioned (and only arguably incorrect, as I agree with quite a few of Gad's calls in this game) moderator decisions in a freaking game? Really?

Tirial, I don't know if you realize it or not, but you're not coming off at all well here. The way you are presenting yourself seems awfully petty and the sportsmanship you are showing in the face of (possible) defeat looks even poorer in light of the fact that you claim to have played a lot of games of this type. Frankly, had you done a better job of presenting your case in this last game Day, instead of getting petulant and blaming everyone else for your situation, the endgame might have played out differently. And the bad-spirited way in which you're going about your post-game analysis is going to, for the first time, make this game something that the moderators might look at as not worth the trouble. If you make this petty and personal, then realize that the net result might be that the rest of us, who want to keep playing this game, might not have that chance.

Gad, I can't believe you'd actually let something like this make you stop playing. No one died. Everyone involved (with the evident exception of tirial) had fun. If this had been nuclear negotiation, there might be other criteria, but as far as I can tell, "no one died and everyone involved had fun" is about the definition of a good game, and by any definition that makes your moderation successful.

Geez.

P.S. I do think I want to make this plea to all future gamerunners: please don't extend the Days. Ever. No matter what. I say this for two reasons: (1) it impedes the strategy of anyone who might be relying on a specific end time for the day; and (2) it encourages players to drag things out, figuring they can always count on an extension. The game is more fun when it's under the gun. I get what you did at the end, there, Gad, but if the town was foolish enough to let a crucial decision go to random.org than that's their bad strategy, and possibly the scum's good strategy.

[tirial]

What do you want me to say, tirial? You got the result you wanted regardless. How would it have changed if I had done random.org on Saturday following the tie vote and your name had come up?

I'm sorry. Bad, bad me. Incompetence doesn't equal bias.

(By the way, I've clearly learned my lesson about putting information, however cryptic, into the forbidden thread. But I will say that the last Day or so has, to a careful observer, been interesting to watch for reasons beyond the obvious ones.)
No, but incompetance can have the same effect as bias.

What I object to is the town losing a 50% chance of still having a Doctor block tonight. If my name had come up in random that's one thing. To have the GM deliberately give the town more time purely to destroy the tie, is insulting.

Frankly Gad, who on earth do you think you are to ignore the players' vote1? You don't think anyone would like a tie? Well, maybe Cookies did when she voted to create it. Maybe I'd played my a*** off to create it. Maybe nesta had a reason not to break it. Maybe Hal and Diggit weren't going to unvote me under any circumstances, so the only way for it to be broken is for me to get lynched - sorry to point out the bleeding obvious, but you do seem to have completely overlooked this rather important point.

I told you when I found out about Idle that I was seriously annoyed with both of you, but a last minute rules change is so far beyond that, that its not even funny.

1(Not even refs using the red-pen-rule pull this one. Sorry. )

[fluiddruid]

Take all the exception you like.

When have any of your more unorthodox decisions actually harmed the scum in any way compared to the damage they did to the town?Scum was substantially harmed when we lost a kill we rightly deserved.

This isn't a criticism of Gad, who I appreciate running the game, and I've enjoyed it all the same for its imperfections; running a game of this scope is bafflingly difficult and, though I want to try it myself, I am sure I will make some mistakes too. It's okay. It's a GAME.

But there's no excuse for reacting this way, tirial. Truly. Chill out.

Personally I dislike the random.org breaking of ties and won't run it that way. Lessons learned.

[Gadarene]

Well, maybe Cookies did when she voted to create it.

My impression, strongly validated by her first post-extension post (right here (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8686994&postcount=2374)), is that Cookies voted to create the tie in order to allow for further discussion. You knucklehead.

No, but incompetance can have the same effect as bias.

Fine. Then stop saying I'm actually biased. Plzkthx.

[tirial]

And storyteller I don't give a f*ck how I come off. I've spent the last four days under a blasted handcuff clause - exactly the same reason I quit gaming in the first place, because I got sick of catching cheats. First game on SDMB - same thing happens.

The only thing I would like to hear from Gadarene is "I am sorry". No excuses, no lies, no justifications, because frankly there aren't any. And its the only thing he hasn't bothered to do in any of the PMs he's been sending me to keep me on the blasted gagging order, or any of the posts in-game since I found out about Idle, or since I came to this thread. And its the one thing I would actually like to hear.

But there's no excuse for reacting this way, tirial. Truly. Chill out.
An apology would be nice, (instead of being taken off Christmas card lists) but I don't actually care. I used to play tournaments; there can be a fair prize riding on those and its why - as Gad was aware - I really don't like cheating.

Gad, as I was saying if you had read my post, Cookies created the tie, only for you to override her vote by moving it to extra time. That was ridiculous.

[Gadarene]

The only thing I would like to hear from Gadarene is "I am sorry".

Good Lord. If I haven't actually said this, that surprises me, but frankly I think that my constant self-flagellation has had the same effect. I'm sorry. Very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, sorry. Very.

Gad, as I was saying if you had read my post, Cookies created the tie, only for you to override her vote by moving it to extra time.

So if Cookies were to say that she created the tie in order to move the Day into extra time, what would you have to say to that?

[SnakesCatLady]

Wow, tirial, don't take a game so seriously. If anyone has a reason to bitch about the mistake with Idle not getting killed off, it would be me. That mistake gave him more time to get me lynched and got me out of the game earlier than I might have otherwise. While I admit I have used it to whine and possibly get myself a slot in another game, I haven't been digging at Gadarene for a mistake.

I don't think Gadarene showed bias. Everyone makes mistakes. Let it go.

And Gadarene, don't give up gaming because of this. You learned from it, right? I would like to see a game going all the time, or even an entire game section on the board, because I enjoy both reading them and playing them.

[tirial]

Ok, I will add a partial apology:

In the last two weeks I've talked down a suicide, witnessed a cyclist wipeout at 50, written a police witness report, dealt with a corporate case, taken two professional exams, ended a contract, investigated a potential fraud and completed a full consultancy report and tried to prep for two anniversaries. That's outside of my usual work, which isn't great (the whole "your job is literally killing you" thing). This means my sh!t tolerance has vanished. I would describe this level of activity as "marginally interesting".

As of about 1 o'clock today (5 hours ago) my life just got to the point described as really really interesting - to the point where I think I have been looking for someone to take it out on and Gadarene made the mistake of being in the position to be that someone.

Therefore, although I think his actions during the game are pretty atrocious, I will apologise for my over-reaction. It would still be nice to get an apology from him for those actions, but right now I don't actually care anymore.

[Lemur866]

"Cheating"?

Who's been cheating? And in reference to tabletop RPGs, how exactly do you cheat at those? Loaded dice? Eh. I haven't played tabletop RPGs in a while, but character sheets and dice are just story aids in my philosophy.

Anyway, I suppose emotions might be an inevitable consequence of this sort of game. Gadarene, don't worry too much about making mistakes in moderating this one. It is just a game, no one died, there are no prizes awating the winning team. I had fun playing, and the mistakes you made...even with Idle Thoughts...were not that egregious.

[Gadarene]

storyteller:
P.S. I do think I want to make this plea to all future gamerunners: please don't extend the Days. Ever. No matter what. I say this for two reasons: (1) it impedes the strategy of anyone who might be relying on a specific end time for the day; and (2) it encourages players to drag things out, figuring they can always count on an extension. The game is more fun when it's under the gun. I get what you did at the end, there, Gad, but if the town was foolish enough to let a crucial decision go to random.org than that's their bad strategy, and possibly the scum's good strategy.

Fair enough. And I fully admit to having been influenced by the multiple Day extensions in Mafia IV in thinking it wouldn't be a big deal. But I shouldn't have changed the rules mid-stream, and I apologize to all for that.

Gad, I can't believe you'd actually let something like this make you stop playing.

I'm glad that people have mostly had fun, and I've mostly had fun in running the game. But I have no real experience as a gamerunner (unlike tirial's two decades as a player), and as a consequence I'll make suboptimal decisions sometime. Which I'm sorry for. And which mean that I'm not the best choice of a person to run a game. Lesson learned.

As for not playing anymore, we'll see. It's burnt me out to play in Mafia IV while running Mafia III, especially because work has been super stressful and involved. So I might just take a break. It's generally very enjoyable...just not so much the last week or so.

(By the way, tirial: I know that you're English and may not understand the ins and outs of American slang, but "my bad" means "I apologize for having made a mistake there, for which I take full responsibility." Really. It does.)

[SnakesCatLady]

Therefore, although I think his actions during the game are pretty atrocious, I will apologise for my over-reaction. It would still be nice to get an apology from him for those actions, but right now I don't actually care anymore.

Apologize for what? He has run the game the way he thought best. That is the job of the GM. He made a mistake, admitted to it and apologized for it. I don't see that he owes you a personal apology.

[Gadarene]

It would still be nice to get an apology from him for those actions, but right now I don't actually care anymore.

I refuse to apologize for anything. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irony)

Thanks to Lemur, fluid, and SCL.

[tirial]

"Cheating"?

Who's been cheating? And in reference to tabletop RPGs, how exactly do you cheat at those? Loaded dice? Eh. I haven't played tabletop RPGs in a while, but character sheets and dice are just story aids in my philosophy.

At the risk of a hi-jack: in tournament play players can either play as teams for a prize, which can be large, or play to accumulate points - some organisations run it differently, sometime you carry a character across etc.

Players cheat by:
1) Loaded dice (usually the corners these days, badly weighted plastic ones float weighted corner down in liquids like coke or beer - waste of a beer)
2) Changing the stats on their sheet - used to be by changing the figures with pen and paper, is now by pre-printing faked copies to up a couple of stats. If they are taking the same character up levels game-to-game it can be hard to spot.
3) Reading the scenario in advance (this was the type of tell Idle showed).
4) Changing GM notes.
5) Failing to accurately record damage, spells, etc.
6) Murder-mystery - reading the scenario in advance, talking to players who've played it, swapping briefs etc.
7) Larp - fraying padding on a weapon to actually knock someone back more. Bloody dangerous. (Instant ban as I recall). Deliberately striking the head, or stabbing.
8) Larp - failing to acknowledge hits or die (less dangerous, more annoying).
etc. There are hundreds more (including one I've heard by reputation only: locking an opposing team member in a different hall by blocking a fire door - guess how well that went down with the organisers...).

The blackberry under the table one was good, as was the one where the ref was dating the sister of one of the team's players and they suddenly started getting extra points after an otherwise abysmal performance.

Spend time dealing with this as the one who has to catch it and it gets soulkilling. Believe me, these guys take their gaming seriously, and several of them unfortunately take their methods of cheating seriously too. In some cases you can understand why - its a national trophy or something. In other cases its a minor prize like a £5 voucher, and you just have to wonder why they bother - it usually costs more for the cheating materials than the prize is worth.

And Gadarene I haven't actually run across the phrase "my bad" used like that before - the only times I have seen it used is as a put-down or dismissal, effectively equal to "who cares?". Thanks for the explanation.

[Lemur866]

I guess I don't see the point of allowing players to use characters from one campaign to another if you're going to be worried about changing stats. After all, the players can put whatever they like on a character sheet. If I ran a game where I encouraged players to bring existing characters I would assume that said characters were made up by the player on the spot. Either this made-up character will fit in with the game I wanted to run, or it won't.

[tirial]

I guess I don't see the point of allowing players to use characters from one campaign to another if you're going to be worried about changing stats. After all, the players can put whatever they like on a character sheet. If I ran a game where I encouraged players to bring existing characters I would assume that said characters were made up by the player on the spot. Either this made-up character will fit in with the game I wanted to run, or it won't.
Several of the larger organisations have ways of managing this - try looking up the RPGA or the authorised campaigns by various companies.

If its a standard down-the-pub game then as long as the character is made by the rules or doesn't break them too badly there's usually not an issue. If its an authorised tournament with the character registered with one of the groups then it definitely is.

[ArizonaTeach]

Kinder and gentler? Jeez....!

[tirial]

Several of the larger organisations have ways of managing this - try looking up the RPGA or the authorised campaigns by various companies.

If its a standard down-the-pub game then as long as the character is made by the rules or doesn't break them too badly there's usually not an issue. If its an authorised tournament with the character registered with one of the groups then it definitely is.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=rpga/play/campaigns is one example of campaign play and how the RPGA runs it.

Smaller groups like Raven, Europa and others tend to spring up and sometimes quickly disappear. The larger companies usually have their own groups run by supporters which manage campaigns or tournaments in various ways.

Edited cos I double posted.

[tirial]

Dual post.

[Gadarene]

With respect (and because I was interested to see whether tirial would retract her point about Cookies), could this particular discussion happen in another thread?

[Idle Thoughts]

Yep: try being the doctor who gets the GM telling them in a PM that they should roleclaim - sorry Gad did I completely ignore you resulting in Rachm getting lynched not me :D ?

I dunno. Reading and following along since my (late) death...I'd have thought that a role claim then would have helped you. I remember thinking "she should roleclaim now".

As far as I can tell there's been a nasty pro-scum bias in Gad's decisions from early on.
1) Idle stayed in the game after getting info he shouldn't have had (I'll read this thread later to get the story on that). Apparently he was declined a sub.

This confuses me. :confused: How would that be a pro-scum thing? If anything I'd think it was a pro-town thing.
And that was my fault. My PM to Gad, that day, did say I thought I should be subbed out...but I also said that I really, really did hope and wish and would love a way that I could stay in. So I don't blame him for doing that. I mean, really, when you think about it, what did I know? Just that there existed a scum in each group. That didn't say anything that gave answers away. It still made me have to make choices and look at all the good it did me anyway.

So really, nothing gained and nothing really lost.

You are right though. I should have been subbed. But I was the one who should have said it and not said "Oh, I still hope there's someway I could stay".

I know I messed up. I fully admit it. I do feel bad already and from what I see Gad, who isn't to blame at least in my eyes and head for that situation, feels bad himself.

In the end...well, it's just a game. An emotional one...but one where the fun times playing it outweigh the bad come the final moment.

2) When I suspected and PM'd Gad he refused to say in-game "Idle thoughts was removed from the game due to metagame reasons" and instead told me I should roleclaim at a time it would have got me lynched (co-incidentally instead of a scum).

Because I wasn't. I wasn't removed because of what I knew. I was removed for a completely other reason that has nothing to do with knowing what I knew.

I was removed because a simple mistake was made in thinking I had chosen one night to patrol when the mafia chose something else. *shrugs* That was just a mistake.

3) Declined a sub request when I found out about Idle, and instead left me playing handcuffed.

He didn't want to sub me out either...so it wasn't just you. But again, I see this, if anything, as playing fair rather than pro-scum. He wanted players to try to stay in the game and not have to have someone brand new come in nearing endgame and have to get all caught up.....AND hopefully not have been reading this thread themselves all this time. *shrugs*


Oh BTW Idle I didn't spot you because you were "too good". I caught you because I have a background of 20-odd years in gaming and you suddenly went quiet and came back acting like the peope I used to bust.

I dunno. I don't see how I went quiet. I stayed with my long posts and everything and stayed consistant to what I had already built up before the accidental seeing of the post. But I do understand what you're meaning and yeah, I should have been taken out.

But please, it's my fault. Blame me. I messed up. I know it. And I'm sorry. I shouldn't have stayed in. And I really am glad you started getting into gaming again. I really hope you don't let this make you stop cold turkey because it seems like it was something you used to really love to do.

[Hal Briston]

Guess I shoulda listened to you, hmm tirial? :smack:

Off to read the thread.

[Millit the Frail]

Guess I shoulda listened to you, hmm tirial? :smack:

Off to read the thread.

Are we screwed?

:(

[storyteller0910]

Guess I shoulda listened to you, hmm tirial? :smack:

Off to read the thread.

Just out of curiosity - why didn't you (and the other Mason) claim at the end there? I don't see how it could possibly have hurt, and one never knows how it might have helped. Now, the last Mason is worthless; he or she can claim until blue in the face but there's no reason to believe it.

[Idle Thoughts]

Are we screwed?

:(

Well, there are three players left in the game and one is a recruit. So we're not screwed yet. If that recruit can be found today and killed off, town wins. If not, scum wins since a townie is killed off today and the recruit gets the free kill of the other at Night.

[Idle Thoughts]

Just out of curiosity - why didn't you (and the other Mason) claim at the end there? I don't see how it could possibly have hurt, and one never knows how it might have helped. Now, the last Mason is worthless; he or she can claim until blue in the face but there's no reason to believe it.

The way I see it, there was no way that Hal could have known if the other mason was the recruit or not at that point nor would the other one know if Hal was or not.

[Hal Briston]

Just out of curiosity - why didn't you (and the other Mason) claim at the end there? I don't see how it could possibly have hurt, and one never knows how it might have helped. Now, the last Mason is worthless; he or she can claim until blue in the face but there's no reason to believe it.Well, I can't speak for anyone else, but I was going for the Mason win the entire time.

For this night, the remaining scum had one chance left -- kill a Mason. If vanilla town was killed, the Masons would win. If a Mason was killed, it's anyone's game.

Yes, if we both role-claimed, we could have set up the easy town win, but at least for my part, I was playing greedy. :)

Now then, I'm only partially done reading through the thread, but I have a couple of etiquette questions:

1: How freely are we speaking here? Can I openly talk about who the other Mason is? Spoiler box? Or just keep my yap shut?

2: On a similar note, I'd been keeping a bit of a journal on the game since Day 6. Cool to post now, or wait until the end (obviously, the only unknown detail in there is the identity of the third Mason)?


And yes, Millit we're screwed (assuming you mean the Masons). There is no longer any chance for a Mason win...town still has a shot, though.

[Blaster Master]

Are we screwed?

:(

Without giving anything away, it IS in our favor now, statistically speaking. If it comes to random.org, that's a 2/3 chance, and if there's no logic to follow, or bad logic, that's 2/3 to us as well.

I'm absolutely baffled why the two Masons who were left didn't claim before lynching tirial. Even without a lead (and I was pretty sure our recruit knew at least one of the Masons), there was still a 2/3 chance of getting one of them out of chance. I think it would have been worth the risk to claim and know for sure that you'll have a trusted person the next day and reduce the game to essentially a coin flip. If either of the two non-masons thought that the two masons left are nesta and Cookies (like tirial did), then if either of them actually is and tries to claim, the other would be just as believable, putting the whole game in the hands of the third person. OTOH, if the remaining Mason claims and is believed, then the whole game rights in their hands to pick between the other two ...wow.

[sachertorte]

I hope the town speed lynches someone. Then we can have closure.

[Blaster Master]

1: How freely are we speaking here? Can I openly talk about who the other Mason is? Spoiler box? Or just keep my yap shut?

2: On a similar note, I'd been keeping a bit of a journal on the game since Day 6. Cool to post now, or wait until the end (obviously, the only unknown detail in there is the identity of the third Mason)?

Though I'm sure many of us are certain who the third Mason is, because it's clear (or was clear) that not everyone in the game knows, it might be a good idea to keep discussion of that veiled. However, your journal might be neat to see if you can avoid specific references to the remaining mason. If not now, it'd still be nice to see it at the game's completion.

[Hal Briston]

However, your journal might be neat to see if you can avoid specific references to the remaining mason. If not now, it'd still be nice to see it at the game's completion.Hmmm...I'll just hold off. I could remove mention of the Mason's name, but I'd also have to remove all mentions of every non-Mason's name when I'm musing about who is scum, who is town, etc...

Now then...no, wait...this deserves its own post, 'cause there is some 'splaining to do...

[Hal Briston]

...Crap! Never mind...there's a bit of info I found in here that is blowing me away, but I can't fully talk about it without naming the other Mason. Never mind.

[sachertorte]

Whoops. I didn't realize the thread flipped a page. My terse comment was due to my thinking interest in the actual game had waned.

I'm surprised to read that Hal was playing for a mason only win from the start. Honestly, when I read the set up, I thought the only way a mason win could even be feasible would be if there were 4 or more masons from the start. A minimum of two masons are required for a mason only win. That's not a whole lot of leeway.
That in this game the masons avoided needing to roleclaim and night kills until night 9 was a very improbable. I wonder why you (Hal) thought a mason win was feasible, especially after Millit was gone? Before Millit, I can see the reasoning, but after? not so much. And certainly not from the beginning of the game.

[Hal Briston]

Bwuh? tirial banned? Looks like that was more of a flameout than I thought. Shame...he (she? My notes say "M", but I notice a lot of people saying "her") was extremely knowledgeable when it comes to gaming.

Anyway, something that I've been dying to ask for ages -- hey Millit! Did you appreciate Post #529 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8496858&postcount=529)? :D

[fluiddruid]

Bwuh? tirial banned? Looks like that was more of a flameout than I thought. Shame...he (she? My notes say "M", but I notice a lot of people saying "her") was extremely knowledgeable when it comes to gaming.It was voluntary and at her request, her title just needs to be changed by an Admin.

[Hal Briston]

I wonder why you (Hal) thought a mason win was feasible, especially after Millit was gone? Before Millit, I can see the reasoning, but after? not so much. And certainly not from the beginning of the game.Well, ok...I guess I can't say I was playing for a Mason win the entire time, but even in the beginning, it was a goal I set for myself.

There are a couple of times I mention in my journal how unlikely a Mason win would be, but I would keep hoping for it. I guess it was around Day 7 that I started actively playing for it. I was quite sure that SCL was town, but at that point...well, heck, let me paste in that journal entry. This is the morning after CaerieD was murdered:

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dawn, Day #7
Woohoo! We lost another townie! Errr...I man...damn! We lost another townie! No, wait...ahhh, it's kinda tricky being semi-scummy. Well, that leaves us at three scum, eight townies. Still a long way to go. We have to have no more than two (non-Mason) townies when the last of the mob swings, and that's assuming all three of us are there at the end. Not gonna be easy.

Well, let's help speed things along, shall we? As I said yesterday, SCL is a perfect patsy -- almost certainly town, but with just enough eau de scum to make her nicely lynchable.

My apology in Post #1821 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8608849&postcount=1821) is sincere, however. Just because I'm playing this in such a Machiavellian fashion doesn't mean I relish lynching the innocent. <sigh>...Such is the cost of world domination.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Things were still a longshot after we lynched SCL, but the big break came the next morning. After the double-night-kill knocked two more townies out of it, I knew we had a very good shot at a Mason win.

Really, it comes down to scum picking us off at the perfect time. If they didn't kill Millit when they did, the Masons would've won. And if they didn't kill me or the other Mason last night, the Masons would've won.

Damn.

[Hal Briston]

It was voluntary and at her request, her title just needs to be changed by an Admin.Ahhh, understood.

Well, tirial, if you ever happen across this, I hope you'd reconsider. It was good playing with you.

[sachertorte]

I think perhaps there were too many 'new' things in this game. Recruitment and wacky win conditions made for a slightly unstable game. Masons are supposed to be pro-town. I felt that recruitment neutralized mason effectiveness, but now it appears that the wacky win condition made the masons (Hal at least) a bit more anti-town. That's gotta mess up game balance.

[Gadarene]

"Wacky" win conditions?

[Blaster Master]

I think perhaps there were too many 'new' things in this game. Recruitment and wacky win conditions made for a slightly unstable game. Masons are supposed to be pro-town. I felt that recruitment neutralized mason effectiveness, but now it appears that the wacky win condition made the masons (Hal at least) a bit more anti-town. That's gotta mess up game balance.
Wait 'til you get a load of the rules I'm planning to use. :D

[sachertorte]

Wacky is not necessarily bad. But yeah, those win conditions turned out to be pretty wacky don't you think?

[sachertorte]

Wait 'til you get a load of the rules I'm planning to use. :D

I'm fine with wacky! But you have to admit that these additions created situations that are highly unconventional. Like the discussion we had last week about masons colluding with a mafia-mason to assure a mason win (Blaster Master didn't like that one). Or Masons being anti-town (Hal surprised me with this one, but apparently it happened). Or town needing to lynch masons in order to win (Didn't actually happen, but could have). I submit these situations, made possible by the win conditions are wacky.

[Blaster Master]

I'm fine with wacky! But you have to admit that these additions created situations that are highly unconventional. Like the discussion we had last week about masons colluding with a mafia-mason to assure a mason win (Blaster Master didn't like that one). Or Masons being anti-town (Hal surprised me with this one, but apparently it happened). Or town needing to lynch masons in order to win (Didn't actually happen, but could have). I submit these situations, made possible by the win conditions are wacky.

Okay... yes, I agree, it makes for some interesting permutations. The rules I'll be using will have more than just a pair of win conditions, but there won't be the same kind of potential conflicts (I hope) that might in some conditions urge people to do aim to get lynched.

It's a good thing it didn't come down to a mason claiming to be the recruit and asking for a lynch.

[Blaster Master]

...Crap! Never mind...there's a bit of info I found in here that is blowing me away, but I can't fully talk about it without naming the other Mason. Never mind.

Hmm... looks like you can go ahead and say it. ;)

[Millit the Frail]

Bwuh? tirial banned? Looks like that was more of a flameout than I thought. Shame...he (she? My notes say "M", but I notice a lot of people saying "her") was extremely knowledgeable when it comes to gaming.

Anyway, something that I've been dying to ask for ages -- hey Millit! Did you appreciate Post #529 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8496858&postcount=529)? :D

:D I appreciated a lot of your posts. It was a lot of fun, having you two secretly on my side. I really thought we had it wrapped up at a few points. But then the day before I was killed, I figured that it was much more likely that Masons would start dropping like flies, and that I was almost certainly pegged as one. It was really hard to hide, and as a newbie, I had a hard time figuring out what lines I could and couldn't cross.

For example, I thought my mentioning the Masons several times was way too bold--no one would expect a Mason to come right out and talk about them as much as I did. People would look back and I would be hiding in plain sight. But then the game got smaller, and there had to be three Masons around, at least (in order for win conditions to be fair), so it just made me look obsessed with Masons. And therefore....very Mason-like. I'd lay lower if I could do it again. Looking back, I want to smack myself. Sorry if I outed us.

Also, I want to put in my two cents about recruitment: I don't think it's very fair if it can be used so late in the game. It basically re-set the entire game for us, and the fun of the game, for me, was going back through old posts and voting patterns and looking for scum tells and scummy actions. The Mafia played it very smart, but we played pretty smart too. And now it's practically on a coin flip. I'm completely sure it isn't Diggit. Since the other players will probably come around to agree with me on that, Diggit has to choose. It's not all lost, though.

GO DIGGIT!!

[Hal Briston]

Hmm... looks like you can go ahead and say it. ;)But...no, he's lying! Cookies is the third Mason!














Psyche. :)

Yes, obviously it's Diggit...meaning I can reveal all I know. When I have time, tomorrow.

[sachertorte]

Looks like Cookies took a shot at Diggit despite the mason claim. That can't be good for Cookies.

Why the hell didn't Diggit roleclaim! Well, that at least explains why and how Hal could be so forceful in lynching Blaster Master. But all that tirial tirade could have been averted with a nice simple Mason claim by Diggit. Most of the town saw that Millit's death proved a non-mason was recruited. Barring a counter claim (which would be very dumb of scum), I think tirial would even be convinced to back off of Diggit. I'm not sure if that ends up being mathematically better for the town or not, but at the very least tirial wouldn't have been driven mad. Actually, not claiming was kind of cruel of the masons. They could back each other up, leaving tirial very very frustrated. In light of this, I don't blame him (her) from going wacky (different kind of wacky) at all.

Cookies is scum.

[Blaster Master]

Looks like Cookies took a shot at Diggit despite the mason claim. That can't be good for Cookies.

Why the hell didn't Diggit roleclaim! Well, that at least explains why and how Hal could be so forceful in lynching Blaster Master. But all that tirial tirade could have been averted with a nice simple Mason claim by Diggit. Most of the town saw that Millit's death proved a non-mason was recruited. Barring a counter claim (which would be very dumb of scum), I think tirial would even be convinced to back off of Diggit. I'm not sure if that ends up being mathematically better for the town or not, but at the very least tirial wouldn't have been driven mad. Actually, not claiming was kind of cruel of the masons. They could back each other up, leaving tirial very very frustrated. In light of this, I don't blame him (her) from going wacky (different kind of wacky) at all.

Cookies is scum.

I absolutely agree. For a long while I thought Diggit was a mason, and then I started to wonder because he got really close to getting lynched a couple of times and never claimed. Then the only way anyone could conceive that he was scum was if he was recruited, but as has been pointed out, logistically, it wouldn't make sense for a mason to kill his other masons... unless he was deliberately doing it to throw people off his tail, and even then... that's highly risky.

I have to say, despite all the controversy over all the "screw ups" in this game, it came out remarkably balanced, down to the last possible moment. Then again, I'm not sure if that's because of, or in spite of, all the background drama.

[Gadarene]

I have to say, despite all the controversy over all the "screw ups" in this game, it came out remarkably balanced, down to the last possible moment. Then again, I'm not sure if that's because of, or in spite of, all the background drama.

In spite of. No, because of. Wait...which one reflects best on me? :)

[Lemur866]

Eh, even though we've mathematically got a 2/3 chance of winning, the trouble is that everyone seems to believe Diggit's mason claim, given that there's no way he'd kill off his fellow masons even if he was a mason/scum. So nesta will vote Cookies and Cookies will vote nesta, and Diggit's choice will decide the game.

[Hal Briston]

Ok, since this won't give any unknown info, I'll toss this out here now. My apologies to any town that got in the way of the Masonic dream...sorry, but when you're building a utopia, you can't let niggling things like "innocent blood being spilled" get in the way.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thought I'd start taking down notes for when this is all over.

Waiting for Sunrise #6
What a fricking debacle. Lightnin' swings, and I know that two of the four votes he received are from townies (my fellow Masons)! That leaves DarkSideCookies, who I was quite suspicious of for most of the game (but that is wavering juuust a bit), and nesta, who I'm 99.9% positive is scum. But hey...if there is to be any chance of a Mason win, some townies gotta swing too.

Waiting for Sunrise #7
Ok, we've nailed Lemur (well, I didn't personally vote for him, but I didn't need to...had the voting been anywhere near close, I'd have switched over to him). That's very good, but now some more townies need to go.

I'm going to work on the assumption that the Mafia started with four. Add one recruit, subtract the two we've lynched already, and that leaves three scum and nine townies. If we want the Mason victory (and I sure as hell want to at least try for it), then the town needs it's numbers thinned. SCL looks like the perfect candidate -- she's under very heavy suspicion, although I'm pretty sure she's innocent. Now I just have to hope that she can be taken out without me getting my hands dirty, and preferably without Millit or Diggit voting for her as well. Especially Diggit -- he's attracting far too much notice lately...hope he doesn't have to role-claim any time soon.

Dawn, Day #7
Woohoo! We lost another townie! Errr...I man...damn! We lost another townie! No, wait...ahhh, it's kinda tricky being semi-scummy. Well, that leaves us at three scum, eight townies. Still a long way to go. We have to have no more than two (non-Mason) townies when the last of the mob swings, and that's assuming all three of us are there at the end. Not gonna be easy.

Well, let's help speed things along, shall we? As I said yesterday, SCL is a perfect patsy -- almost certainly town, but with just enough eau de scum to make her nicely lynchable.

My apology in Post #1821 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8608849&postcount=1821) is sincere, however. Just because I'm playing this in such a Machiavellian fashion doesn't mean I relish lynching the innocent. <sigh>...Such is the cost of world domination.

A bit past dawn, Day #7
My theory is SnakesCatLady is being framed. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8609008&postcount=1828)And my theory is shut the hell up!! Of course she's bring framed! And this is a good thing for us! Unless, of course, this is a brilliant plan to make yourself look highly un-scummy/un-Masonic. In that case, way to go! :)

Waiting for Sunrise #8
<Sigh...> I genuinely like SCL, and so I'm sad to see her go. Yes, I realize that I voted for her to swing, even being quite certain that she was town, but still...I wish others wouldn't have latched on to the way known scum pointed at her and made her an inviting target.

Once my Masonic brethren and I establish our New World Order, one of my first acts will be to establish the world's finest animal shelter in SCL's name.

Dawn, Day #8
Muhahaha!

I didn't mean to, but I actually made that noise in real life when I looked at the updated player list. My wife now thinks I'm officially wacked.

But hey, that double-night kill makes things so much easier for us to establish our NWO. Ok, let's see where we stand:

Members Of The Glorious Masonic Order:
Hal Briston
Millit the Frail
DiggitCamara

Others:
ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies
nesta
tirial
Blaster Master
Rachm Qoch

Now, let's see...if we want a Mason win, we need to make sure that we lynch scum today, and that the mob kill non-Masonic town tonight. That will leave (depending on assumed starting scum numbers and recruitment) one or two scum and one or two town. If we pull that off, then we'll be standing on the threshold of our Glorious New Masonic Future!

Midday, Day #8
Finally, we have someone nibbling at my gambit! Master Blaster, I'm not going to come out and say this publicly just yet, but ooo, do I ever have a big 'ol FOS for you.

You know my battles with nesta? Well, a couple of days ago I came to think I'm dead wrong about him. However, if I keep attacking him, then maybe, just maybe, when someone joins in the fray (on either side...doesn't matter if they come after me or nesta), then I'm thinking there's a good chance that someone will be scum. After all, they'll have a good town v. town battle going on. They can fan the flames, get one lynched, and make the other look like scum. Smart move on the scum part. Unless, of course, it's a trap.

Hopefully, Master Blaster will keep up the attack on nesta, which would help confirm my suspicions.

Later Midday, Day #8
Ok, I'm pretty sure I've got this nailed down. Through tirial's hypothesis, and plenty of tracking back through his posts, I'm leaning strongly toward Rachm being scum. And even thought Blaster hasn't really pressed his attack against nesta, I'm still going to work under the belief that Rachm and Blaster are the two remaining scum.

I can't see any reason for them to have recruited yet, so if we manage to lynch one of these two today, and I'm right about them, then it looks like tomorrow will probably come with a no-kill. Then what? tirial has role-claimed as the doctor, so he's the most obvious choice. However, scum will know that and will probably avoid him...unless, of course, they know that we know it's the most obvious choice, so they recruit him as a double-bluff move. Meh...who the hell knows.

Hey, something just occurred to me -- I may very well wind up being recruited tonight. Combine a few facts -- I was pushing really damn hard for Rachm's lynching, and I have never, not once, had anyone vote against me -- looks like I'm pretty trusted. Prime recruitment material. Man, that'd be sweet...wanna see how fast I take out the mob from within, all in the name of the Masons? :-)

Dusk, Day #8
Woohoo! Buh-bye Rachm! Another scum down!

So let's see...three Masons, one scum remaining (which will probably be up to two by morning) and three straight townies. If the scum recruit town, then all we have to do is eliminate the two scum and we have a Mason win. If they recruit a Mason, then we'll need scum to make a townie kill tomorrow night before blowing cover.

Got an interesting endgame ahead of us!

Dawn, Day #9
Ok, we've got our recruitment...or so it would seem, anyway. It wasn't me, so I can't say anything for sure, but I can't see them having already recruited and then doing a no-kill bluff last night -- that'd be straight-up stupid.

So now it's going to be a matter of getting people's eyes off of Diggit and onto Blaster. What I can't figure out is why everyone is still so gung-ho about finding scum. I mean, yeah, I'm leading a "lynch the scum" charge, but that's for purely pro-Mason reasons. I guess none of the townies have done the math and realized that the Masons are more of a threat to their victory than the mafia are. Hey, if that's the case, then woohoo. If Diggit or Nesta were recruited, then all we have to do is lynch the one who recruited them and the town is ours. If it was someone else, then we've still got a bit more work ahead of us, but things are still looking pretty good. Just gotta keep votes away from Diggit...

Midday, Day #10
Been away for several days, so it's time to play catch-up here.

Woohoo for nailing Blaster Master, boo for the final scum picking off Millet. If the three of us were still alive, then a Mason win would be in the bag. Ah well...there's a good chance that Diggit and I will have to settle for a town win, which I can certainly live with. In order for us to get a Mason win, we'd have to lynch town tonight and then have the final scum kill the final vanilla townie. Not impossible, but not very likely.

I'll probably go with a vote for tirial -- he's the most likely scum candidate, and if I'm wrong, well, then the Mason win is still on the table. If that turns out to be the case, though, it's hard to imagine that both Diggit and I would survive the night. The way I always pushed Diggit's innocence should be a major Mason tell to anyone who was paying attention.

Dusk, Day #10
Well, the doc wasn't recruited after all, and now he's dangling. Now it all comes down to who the remaining scum targets tonight. If it's a Mason, the game goes on with no more chance of a Mason win...if it's the remaining vanilla townie, then a Mason win is in the bag.

I'd doubt we'll be that lucky.

Since Doctor tirial wasn't recruited, it looks like his claim of protecting me the other night was honest...that means the scum was looking to kill me the other night, and I see no reason why they wouldn't try it again. So let's see here...let's say I do wake up dead tomorrow...that'll leave Mason Diggit, plus one scum and one town in nesta and Cookies. Once it comes out that I was a Mason, it'll be obvious that Diggit was as well, given my constant defense of him. I guess nesta and Cookies will just call each other scum, and leave it up to Diggit. A Mason win will no longer be a consideration. Choosing correctly gives the town a win, choosing wrong will leave only the single scum standing after Diggit gets a nighttime shiv between the ribs. Yikes...not an enviable position.

Dawn, Day #11
But not for me... :(

Off to the forbidden thread!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[SnakesCatLady]

Hal, you...you..."eau de scum", indeed!

[Hal Briston]

What can I say? I'm sorry we won't be building the SCL Memorial Animal Shelter. Shame, really...the blueprints were magnificent...

[Hal Briston]

All this leaves me with a dilemma: I'm the only player who doesn't know who was recruited...Ouch. Painfully true.

So what say the rest of you? Who get's your vote for "remaining scum" (those who did the recruiting are invited to abstain)?

I'm going back to my old target...vote nesta.

[Blaster Master]

Ouch. Painfully true.

So what say the rest of you? Who get's your vote for "remaining scum" (those who did the recruiting are invited to abstain)?

I'm going back to my old target...vote nesta.

Vote Diggit! :D

[Millit the Frail]

Ouch. Painfully true.

So what say the rest of you? Who get's your vote for "remaining scum" (those who did the recruiting are invited to abstain)?

I'm going back to my old target...vote nesta.

Aw, well, I was going to vote Cookies.

This is what I mean by it being almost totally random!

[Scuba_Ben]

I have no idea. Therefore: Vote Gadarene!

[Lemur866]

Vote Diggit!

[storyteller0910]

This game is never going to end, is it?

[Blaster Master]

This game is never going to end, is it?
Not at the rate it's going now. Either way, it's looking more and more like it's basically a coin flip. Interestingly enough, it's in both the mafia's and the town's best interest that the two non-masons lurk, because either SHOULD know that the status of the other, and further discussion just risks suspicion, true or false. The best hope is for Diggit to go digging through the last two days of posts at those made by Cookies and nesta and see if he can discern any tells or differences from their earlier behavior.

Either way, I'd really hate to see the game end on a random.org call. :(

[storyteller0910]

Not at the rate it's going now. Either way, it's looking more and more like it's basically a coin flip. Interestingly enough, it's in both the mafia's and the town's best interest that the two non-masons lurk, because either SHOULD know that the status of the other, and further discussion just risks suspicion, true or false. The best hope is for Diggit to go digging through the last two days of posts at those made by Cookies and nesta and see if he can discern any tells or differences from their earlier behavior.

Either way, I'd really hate to see the game end on a random.org call. :(

I actually really like the idea - I think it's actually your idea - of having the Day get progressively shorter as the number of players dwindles. Honestly, with three players left, and given, as you say, that it's not in anyone's interest to talk too much, there probably won't be more than half a dozen posts between now and when the game Day ends on Friday. If the Day ended tonight, it wouldn't affect the game, but it would keep it from being as anticlimactic as it looks like it's going to be.

[Blaster Master]

I actually really like the idea - I think it's actually your idea - of having the Day get progressively shorter as the number of players dwindles. Honestly, with three players left, and given, as you say, that it's not in anyone's interest to talk too much, there probably won't be more than half a dozen posts between now and when the game Day ends on Friday. If the Day ended tonight, it wouldn't affect the game, but it would keep it from being as anticlimactic as it looks like it's going to be.

Yes, it was my idea to have a progessively shorter Day to avoid these kinds of stale moments. I'd have been perfectly happy if the Day was only two or days here. I just think a random.org call is about as anti-climactic as the game could possibly be. I think if either team is going to lose, they'd rather lose because someone found a tell, or failed to find a tell, than simply because they couldn't make a decision. That said, even if Diggit does result to a random, or mostly random choice, I hope he can at least justify it with saying he's going with his gut.

[Millit the Frail]

Yes, it was my idea to have a progessively shorter Day to avoid these kinds of stale moments. I'd have been perfectly happy if the Day was only two or days here. I just think a random.org call is about as anti-climactic as the game could possibly be. I think if either team is going to lose, they'd rather lose because someone found a tell, or failed to find a tell, than simply because they couldn't make a decision. That said, even if Diggit does result to a random, or mostly random choice, I hope he can at least justify it with saying he's going with his gut.

Looks like Diggit's doing well at this point. I actually buy his latest post, and if I were in game, would definitely vote nesta.

[storyteller0910]

Looks like Diggit's doing well at this point. I actually buy his latest post, and if I were in game, would definitely vote nesta.

So, Gadarene, if you're reading:

If Cookies pops up and votes for nesta, will the Day end immediately due to the unanimous vote, or will there be a countdown of some sort, or will things go until Friday in any case?

Because if Cookies is scum, (s)he would probably jump to vote if it would end the Day instantly.

[storyteller0910]

So, Gadarene, if you're reading:

If Cookies pops up and votes for nesta, will the Day end immediately due to the unanimous vote, or will there be a countdown of some sort, or will things go until Friday in any case?

Because if Cookies is scum, (s)he would probably jump to vote if it would end the Day instantly.

Which (s)he just did. (Jump in with a vote for nesta). This is exciting all of a sudden.

[Kyrie Eleison]

Because if Cookies is scum, (s)he would probably jump to vote if it would end the Day instantly.
But wouldn't she do the same thing if she were town? Diggit's case for not being the recruit is pretty convincing. If she's town, she also ought to jump at the chance to lock the lynch on nesta.

[Blaster Master]

But wouldn't she do the same thing if she were town? Diggit's case for not being the recruit is pretty convincing. If she's town, she also ought to jump at the chance to lock the lynch on nesta.

Hey, while you're in here, can you spill the beans on what your breadcrumb was? It can't possibly affect the game anymore.

[Kyrie Eleison]

Hey, while you're in here, can you spill the beans on what your breadcrumb was? It can't possibly affect the game anymore.
I investigated NAF1138 the first night. Diggit (at least I think it was Diggit without double checking) had it right -- there was no breadcrumb, as NAF woke up dead the next morning. In retrospect, perhaps I should have breadcrumbed something anyway, but at the time, it didn't occur to me to do so.

The fluiddruid vote that everyone was talking about was two things: First, I was honestly suspicious of her, and honestly not suspicious of the two that were on the menu that day. Second, it was foreshadowing for the next day's breadcrumb. I had chosen to investigate fluid; if she came up scummy, I would have reinforced the case as the breadcrumb for that day. If she were cleared, I would find her defense compelling and back down.

The anti-FOS of you was just what it appeared. A silly mistake on my part based on a misinterpretation of what you'd said.

[Blaster Master]

I investigated NAF1138 the first night. Diggit (at least I think it was Diggit without double checking) had it right -- there was no breadcrumb, as NAF woke up dead the next morning. In retrospect, perhaps I should have breadcrumbed something anyway, but at the time, it didn't occur to me to do so.

The fluiddruid vote that everyone was talking about was two things: First, I was honestly suspicious of her, and honestly not suspicious of the two that were on the menu that day. Second, it was foreshadowing for the next day's breadcrumb. I had chosen to investigate fluid; if she came up scummy, I would have reinforced the case as the breadcrumb for that day. If she were cleared, I would find her defense compelling and back down.

The anti-FOS of you was just what it appeared. A silly mistake on my part based on a misinterpretation of what you'd said.

Well, at least I feel vindicated in that respect, that the fluiddruid crumb was merely suspicious. I suppose in that aspect, it was good I wasn't a townie, because I really wanted to tear into that logic. Oh well, live and learn.

[Kyrie Eleison]

I suppose in that aspect, it was good I wasn't a townie, because I really wanted to tear into that logic.
I'm not sure I'm following you -- what logic are you referring to?

[Blaster Master]

I'm not sure I'm following you -- what logic are you referring to?

I wanted to tear into the logic that said that fluiddruid was your breadcrumb. I was just a bit afraid to be THAT aggressive, because I knew that when she or I did eventually show up as scum, it would look bad. Instead, I was stuck with trying to come up with an alternate hypothesis... given the available data, I honestly think it was more legitimate, but it was still ultimately driven by an artificial confirmation bias.

[Kyrie Eleison]

Yeah, although it worked out best for the town, the lack of any sort of investigative result on day two had everyone grasping at straws. I think fluid said it best -- that's not a crumb, that's a whole loaf!

While we're chatting, perhaps you could satisfy my personal curiosity about something. In her long defense post on day two, fluid said that she'd voted for me twice, although she'd only voted once for me in the game thread. Did she actually conflate votes on two boards, and mistake a night-kill vote for a day vote, or was it an honest mistake? I suspect the latter, but, boy, was I ready to use it to make a case regardless if the investigation result came back positive.

[Scuba_Ben]

Tick, tick, boom. Gadarene has started the countdown clock. Get your final bets down, people! Who will win - Mafia or Masons? (I think we're agreed that the Citizen is screwed.)

[Hal Briston]

Nope, the Mason have no shot at the win here.

nesta will almost certainly swing. Either she's scum, leaving one townie and one Mason (giving the town a win -- Masons would have to outnumber town for a Mason win), or she's town, meaning the scum win.

Go town!!

[Scuba_Ben]

Ah - I must have conflated the Mafia win condition ( N(scum) >= N(!scum) ) with the Mason win condition, which you describe as N(mason) > N(citizen).

Revised: Are they getting the scum for a town win? Or a miscall for a Mafia win?

[Blaster Master]

Yeah, although it worked out best for the town, the lack of any sort of investigative result on day two had everyone grasping at straws. I think fluid said it best -- that's not a crumb, that's a whole loaf!

While we're chatting, perhaps you could satisfy my personal curiosity about something. In her long defense post on day two, fluid said that she'd voted for me twice, although she'd only voted once for me in the game thread. Did she actually conflate votes on two boards, and mistake a night-kill vote for a day vote, or was it an honest mistake? I suspect the latter, but, boy, was I ready to use it to make a case regardless if the investigation result came back positive.

It must have been a mistake, I don't recall any talk about hitting you on Night One (but I can't check at work since yahoogroups are blocked). However, if it makes you feel any better, she was the one who suggested and pushed for getting you killed on Night Two.

[Hal Briston]

Not sure why Malacandra didn't spread word further, but it seems the Hispaniola is in need of a substitute sailor. See his post here (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8701702&postcount=75) for details.

[Blaster Master]

Not sure why Malacandra didn't spread word further, but it seems the Hispaniola is in need of a substitute sailor. See his post here (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8701702&postcount=75) for details.

FTR, it looks like storyteller is subbing in.

[sachertorte]

So is the game really going to end today? Closure, I need closure!
Um, when does the next game start? Impatient, I'm impatient!

[Millit the Frail]

Ah - I must have conflated the Mafia win condition ( N(scum) >= N(!scum) ) with the Mason win condition, which you describe as N(mason) > N(citizen).

Revised: Are they getting the scum for a town win? Or a miscall for a Mafia win?

See, I think Masons should get the same advantage as Mafia there. Fulfilling the Mason win conditions, from the beginning, seemed nigh on impossible, with only three of us. We started out at such a disadvantage, and we did so well, just by our sheer staying power! We should get something, just for coming so close.

I have read elsewhere, all over the internet, that Masons are usually allowed to talk at night. I'm not sure that would have helped us a lot, but it might have given us a shot. Any reason why this rule hasn't been co-opted on the SDMB?

[NAF1138]

I have read elsewhere, all over the internet, that Masons are usually allowed to talk at night. I'm not sure that would have helped us a lot, but it might have given us a shot. Any reason why this rule hasn't been co-opted on the SDMB?


Sometimes yes, sometimes no, I wouldn't say usually. I didn't use it in my game because it makes the mason block a lot more powerful, and the game gets a bit trickier to balance. I suspect RT did the same. Don't want to speak for Gad. With Mal's game (off board), if the masons could talk at night it would almost break the game, because one mason is also a doctor.

[Slightly OT]I sort of like the idea of the doc being a mason. It allows you to bulk up on the evil forces in the game because the docs and masons are SO much more powerful together than they would be apart. And, at least for me, the more evil forces in the game the more fun in is.[/slightly OT]

[sachertorte]

See, I think Masons should get the same advantage as Mafia there. Fulfilling the Mason win conditions, from the beginning, seemed nigh on impossible, with only three of us.

I agree. The mason only win condtion was crazy hard to accomplish. knocking it down to 50% or more would be more attainable (still hard though).
But Gaderene allows masons to win with the town. Since you win either way, I don't think the masons should complain too much about the difficulty of the extra win condition.

[Blaster Master]

So is the game really going to end today? Closure, I need closure!
Um, when does the next game start? Impatient, I'm impatient!

Well, the game ends today, and I have permission to start when this game has "run its course". That means, I may be able to start it tomorrow, but more likely, it'll have to wait until Monday or Tuesday next week while we finish up our post-game discussion.

[Blaster Master]

See, I think Masons should get the same advantage as Mafia there. Fulfilling the Mason win conditions, from the beginning, seemed nigh on impossible, with only three of us. We started out at such a disadvantage, and we did so well, just by our sheer staying power! We should get something, just for coming so close.

I have read elsewhere, all over the internet, that Masons are usually allowed to talk at night. I'm not sure that would have helped us a lot, but it might have given us a shot. Any reason why this rule hasn't been co-opted on the SDMB?

This is actually something that I gave serious thought to allowing for the masons in the game I'll be running, and while I really wanted to do it, I decided I'd rather have other, more interesting roles. Further, I'm not really sure how much it adds, because they all know who all the others are, so they can appropriately weight what people say based on that. The only thing it wouldn't allow is a highly complex gambit but, as we've seen, even the mafia don't really tend to get too complex because there's so many things that can go wrong.

I sort of like the idea of the doc being a mason. It allows you to bulk up on the evil forces in the game because the docs and masons are SO much more powerful together than they would be apart. And, at least for me, the more evil forces in the game the more fun in is.

I actually considered doing that as well, and it would have worked very well with the theme, but I also felt that it makes the Doctor WAY over-powered (unless he's weaker, like in M4 where he can't protect the same person twice in a row). For one, he has information, and two, no one can fake claim because he'll have people that can back him up. In the case of how I wanted to implement the doctor, it would make his value perhaps greater than the detective's.

[Idle Thoughts]

Yeah, your game sounds like it will be pretty interesting and challenging, BM.

[Blaster Master]

Yeah, your game sounds like it will be pretty interesting and challenging, BM.
Well, it'll either be that, or a CF of propotions only hinted at by the Day Two disaster in M2. :D

[Hal Briston]

Time's up, Gadarene! The deadline has been reached, and I see you're online. For good or bad, Mafia 3 comes to an end now. What'll it be?? What?? Tell us!!

[Hal Briston]

Nooo! Damn you, Gad! Get back online! Give us closure, damnit!!

[Millit the Frail]

Of the 3 left, nesta is the only one not online. Could it be because he already knows the outcome and that he lost? I HOPE SO!!

I'm pathetic. :(

GO MASONS!

[SnakesCatLady]

Come on, Gad!

Probably off having a beer snickering at us...

[Millit the Frail]

Maybe Gadarene knew the losing side would put out a hit on him, so he headed for the hills?

[Clockwork Jackal]

For whoever is running the next Mafia game: Could you put me down on the list please? I'd love to try my hand at this! Thanks! :)

[Blaster Master]

For whoever is running the next Mafia game: Could you put me down on the list please? I'd love to try my hand at this! Thanks! :)

I'll be running the next one, and I'll probably be posting the start on Monday. I can't reserve anymore spots because I already saved 10, but there's still plenty of space left.

[Clockwork Jackal]

I'll be running the next one, and I'll probably be posting the start on Monday. I can't reserve anymore spots because I already saved 10, but there's still plenty of space left.

Ahhh so I have to be quick on the draw...errrr...post. OK, I'll look for it Monday!

[Blaster Master]

Ahhh so I have to be quick on the draw...errrr...post. OK, I'll look for it Monday!

I doubt it will fill up so quickly that anyone that's really interested will miss it. I expect it will have 30 slots, so there's still 20 slots available, and most of the "quick draw" people were the ones who got in when I openned reservations.

That said, I really do want to see some new people in it... if the same group of people plays in each one, it will get stale because we'll all get too used to eachothers style.

[Kyrie Eleison]

This might be of interest to some: Mafia : A Theoretical Study Of Players and Coalitions in a Partial Information Environment (http://arxiv.org/abs/math/0609534)

[Blaster Master]

This might be of interest to some: Mafia : A Theoretical Study Of Players and Coalitions in a Partial Information Environment (http://arxiv.org/abs/math/0609534)

Oh boy! Lots of fun math. I'm definitely going to have to read that before I completely finalize the next mafia game.

[Clockwork Jackal]

I doubt it will fill up so quickly that anyone that's really interested will miss it. I expect it will have 30 slots, so there's still 20 slots available, and most of the "quick draw" people were the ones who got in when I openned reservations.

That said, I really do want to see some new people in it... if the same group of people plays in each one, it will get stale because we'll all get too used to eachothers style.

I wouldn't be surprised if it fills up very quickly. I know I've had a very entertaining time watching this game, and I would check the thread every night so see what had happened during the day. :)

[NAF1138]

I wouldn't be surprised if it fills up very quickly. I know I've had a very entertaining time watching this game, and I would check the thread every night so see what had happened during the day. :)


Hey, it's Clockwork Jackal! You are a semi celebrity over at the pirates game, being the only non player to actually sign up for the board. You still watching that game? If you want access to Skelleton Island PM Idle Thoughts or Malacandra. That goes for all of you in here. It's a good game, come watch.

So Gad, you opening up the mafia boards to us?

[sachertorte]

This might be of interest to some: Mafia : A Theoretical Study Of Players and Coalitions in a Partial Information Environment (http://arxiv.org/abs/math/0609534)
I read the paper. Impressive math, but way overkill for a simple problem. Random strategies with no detectives can be evaluated using dynamic programming- not nearly as messy at all. I can send you my spreadsheet if you like. No simulation or martingale analysis required. One thing I'd like to say is that the paper didn't express the bi-modal nature of mafia. R(odd) and R(even) have independent analyses (assuming no doctor).

The analysis and conclusions for games with detectives were interesting, but were hinged on the assumption that private messages can be sent. As that is clearly not the case, the analysis doesn't really apply here.

[Clockwork Jackal]

Hey, it's Clockwork Jackal! You are a semi celebrity over at the pirates game, being the only non player to actually sign up for the board. You still watching that game? If you want access to Skelleton Island PM Idle Thoughts or Malacandra. That goes for all of you in here. It's a good game, come watch.

So Gad, you opening up the mafia boards to us?

Ha! A celebrity!

Oh, I signed up because I was hoping to sub in for someone, but twice someone else beat me to it!

I follow it occasionally, but at this point, I think too much has happened for me to catch up.

[DiggitCamara]

I investigated NAF1138 the first night. Diggit (at least I think it was Diggit without double checking) had it right -- there was no breadcrumb, as NAF woke up dead the next morning. In retrospect, perhaps I should have breadcrumbed something anyway, but at the time, it didn't occur to me to do so.

(snip)

Yeah, it was me. tirial convinced me of her (wrong) idea, though (luckily for us). I had no read on fluiddruid as scum per se.