I Want to Walk Around Lake Michigan--What Will Stop Me?

[Humble Servant]

You know, the Circle Tour, but walking.

Walking the shore, without having to detour inland.

There are several river mouths on the Michigan side (Kalamazoo, Grand) that I know will require a detour inland to cross a bridge (I don't mind swimming up to about 100 yards, but I don't want to get minced into litle bits by the boat traffic).

I also think the industrial parts of Indiana could be a problem--does anyone know how accessible it is around Gary? The Dunes are good but between there and Illinois it looks problematic.

Also, there was an article in the Tribune this week that indicated that scattered bits of the lake shore in Chicago are in private hands. What does this mean? There are private homes on the lake in Michigan, but the shore itself up to some level of tideline is public. Is this the case in Chicago? Wisconsin? If private property means a building built right up to a seawall then I might have to leave the shore there too unless I could wade/swim/hang onto the seawall. I think I could manage something similar around the seawall that is the Point in Hyde Park, for instance.

I would plan to walk the Mighty Mac Bridge, so that too takes me away from the shore/water, but I've always wanted to do that.

What else will stop me?

Yeah, this is just a pipe dream, but why not?

[August West]

I've driven all the way around, but I take it you want to walk right along the shoreline?

I think you should be able to, as you say the public owns the area up to the natural high water line. I believe that is a federal law, I know for sure it is true in Wisconsin because I take advantage of it for duck hunting all the time.

[Phlosphr]

Private property may be a constraint, but if lake Mich is anything like the ocean, anyone can walk below the hig tide line, no matter who owns the beach....below the hightide line is federal property, or domain...granted Lake Mich won't have tides but it may have clauses.

[MikeS]

You might have to detour around the D.C. Cook (http://www.cookinfo.com/cookplant.htm) nuclear power plant near Benton Harbor, MI. Here's Google Maps' aerial view (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=1+Cook+Pl,+Bridgman,+MI&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=85.967099,97.910156&ie=UTF8&t=k&om=1&ll=41.975763,-86.565185&spn=0.010353,0.011952&z=16) of it.

[Bobotheoptimist]

I will stop you, if I must! MWA HA HA HA HAAAAA HA!

[DSYoungEsq]

Private property may be a constraint, but if lake Mich is anything like the ocean, anyone can walk below the hig tide line, no matter who owns the beach....below the hightide line is federal property, or domain...granted Lake Mich won't have tides but it may have clauses.
The Great Lakes don't have such significant tides that there is that much involved. ;)

Different states define the property holder's rights differently. Ohio is involved in a big battle with property holders along Lake Erie, in an attempt to exercise control over what gets done along the actual waterline.

And, contrary to your assertion, the federal government does not own any of the land between the high tide and low tide marks. However, in several states, that is considered public property, or an area of public easement.

I don't think you can walk around Lake Michigan, though, unless you intend to do something interesting about the Mackinac Straits... :D

[engineer_comp_geek]

I also think the industrial parts of Indiana could be a problem--does anyone know how accessible it is around Gary?

I did some work in a steel mill not far from Gary. They aren't going to let you onto their property. If you somehow managed to avoid security, you are going to be inside of a working steel mill, which isn't the safest place to be if you don't know what you are doing. They dump a lot of slag from the mill near the shore which won't be easy to walk over. Plus, they have a bunch of machinery and facilities right on the water.

You'd have to go a fair distance (either out into the water or inland) to get around them, and that's just one site. There's two other steel mills in that area, plus a lot of other industrial stuff.

[brewha]

Do you plan on walking around the "thumb of Wi"? Or will you cut across to Green Bay and up that side?

Either way, let me know when you get to Green Bay, I'll buy ya a beer.

[Qadgop the Mercotan]

I live right on Lake Michigan, and am a riparian property owner. And despite my friend and neighbor August West's statement, the public does not have automatic access to the lakeshore in Wisconsin. To the lake, yes. But not the shore.

That is because Wisconsin gives first right of use of the land between the high water mark and the actual water to the adjacent property owner, not to the public. So said property owner can legally forbid trespassing on it.

This is different from the other great lake states, and will probably end up in court again someday. But the above arrangement was set down by the Wisconsin Supreme Court in the 1930's.

Cites can be dug up later if someone is really interested. Our local Lakeshore League of property owners keeps close track of this stuff.

[Qadgop the Mercotan]

I should quickly add that if you're walking in Wisconsin along Lake Michigan, and your feet are wet, you're okay vis a vis 'trespassing'!

Stop by my place. It is a grey house with a flagpole. Can't miss it!

[Humble Servant]

You might have to detour around the D.C. Cook (http://www.cookinfo.com/cookplant.htm) nuclear power plant near Benton Harbor, MI. Here's Google Maps' aerial view (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=1+Cook+Pl,+Bridgman,+MI&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=85.967099,97.910156&ie=UTF8&t=k&om=1&ll=41.975763,-86.565185&spn=0.010353,0.011952&z=16) of it.I bet this one is indeed a problem--but even then the google map indicates "Rosemary Beach" and a big sandy shore strip past the site, only a corner of which touches the beach. If they want to stop terrorist jetskis, there would have to be boating ban too--otherwise you could swim there because depth typically increases pretty graduallly along the west Michigan coast.

I don't know what to do about Indiana.

brewha--Thanks for the beer--with sommer sausage, I hope. Cutting across would be slacking--the Door County leg should be one of the highlights of the trek.

I figure it would take 3 summers to do the job--winter in the UP would stop me too

[Phlosphr]

And, contrary to your assertion, the federal government does not own any of the land between the high tide and low tide marks. However, in several states, that is considered public property, or an area of public easement.

Right, I was unsure what the actual verbage was, but here in Connecticut I can walk anywhere I'd like at low tide, and not go above high tide line. Various Mansion owners and others have fought this and lost.

[Gfactor]

I live right on Lake Michigan, and am a riparian property owner. And despite my friend and neighbor August West's statement, the public does not have automatic access to the lakeshore in Wisconsin. To the lake, yes. But not the shore.



http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4196/is_20060417/ai_n16161450

[Humble Servant]

I should quickly add that if you're walking in Wisconsin along Lake Michigan, and your feet are wet, you're okay vis a vis 'trespassing'!

Stop by my place. It is a grey house with a flagpole. Can't miss it!What % of the Wisconsin side is shallow enough to wade? Can't keep my feet wet (withot a squirt bottle) on a sheer 20 foot bluff over deep rocky water. Oooh--maybe I could do those parts in the deep winter when it freezes over--that's the wet feet concept at least in principle. (I would count walking the cliff hugging the shore as okay for my walk, but it sounds like WI property owners could possibly block me from doing so.)

[Qadgop the Mercotan]

These days, with the water level low, I'd say "most of it". I can only speak for my area, which is low dunes with the lakebluff about a half mile inland. But even the areas with the bluff right by the water's edge have a fairly nice stretch of beach these days.

Go on google maps and cruise up and down the lakeshore, and I bet you can get a better idea of where problem areas could be.

Thanks for the link, GFactor.

As a property owner, I do like my privacy. But I understand the public's view on it, too.

I just wish the jetskiiers would stop buzzing around within a quarter mile of shore over the same halfmile of lakefront, and use some of the rest of our 400 x 90 mile lake.

[Gfactor]

Thanks for the link, GFactor.


No problem. I actually had it close at hand because I had a discussion with my boss's neighbor about exactly what the public trust rights entailed.

[Great Dave]

You can only walk across the Mighty Mac one day a year, so plan accordingly. It's a zoo that day.





BTW, it's Labor Day.

Also, there was a big hubbub a couple years ago in MI about property owners' rights vs public access. Not sure what the result was.

[Gfactor]

Also, there was a big hubbub a couple years ago in MI about property owners' rights vs public access. Not sure what the result was.

http://courtofappeals.mijud.net/documents/OPINIONS/FINAL/SCT/20050729_S126409_100_glass4mar05-op.pdf

[AHoosierMama]

Lots of homes on Indiana's shoreline are built with big sea walls that jut out into the water so you'll definitely get wet there.

[DSYoungEsq]

No problem. I actually had it close at hand because I had a discussion with my boss's neighbor about exactly what the public trust rights entailed.
Um, just out of curiousity, would you record your discussions for us, please? You end up discussing so many interesting and odd things (to say nothing of the interesting and odd things that happen to you! :p ) that I for one would just love to be a bug on your wall!

That or a drinking buddy. ;)


Which, come to think of it, given where you live, isn't that far-fetched!! :eek:

[Gfactor]

Um, just out of curiousity, would you record your discussions for us, please? You end up discussing so many interesting and odd things (to say nothing of the interesting and odd things that happen to you! :p ) that I for one would just love to be a bug on your wall!

Heh. I was kinda irked in this case. I had a boss who thought Michigan's water law was like Wisconsin's, a neighbor who assured me that the surveyor told him it was ok to put his crap all over my boss's beach, and a 67-page opinion that really didn't discuss the limits of the public trust doctrine. It's a miracle we didn't wind up in court.

Here, I'll recap the discussion for you:

G: Dude, you've left a bunch of your stuff on my boss's beach.
D: The surveyor said your boss's property only extends to the high water mark. Cites some Illinois regulation that doesn't even say what he claims it does.
G: The surveyor didn't go to law school. The cases say you can walk on the beach--they don't say you can leave a bunch of crap on it. The cases also say the beach is his property, there are simply some limitations on the normally absolute right to exclude others.
D: Oh. . . Ok.

Sadly, this discussion involved the exchange of several letters and my boss "helping" along the way.

I'll trade ya. ;)

Which, come to think of it, given where you live, isn't that far-fetched!! :eek:

I used to drive through Northwest Ohio just about every weekend. It still ain't that far.

[August West]

Thanks for clearing that up Q the M, I guess I don't know the laws here as well as I thought.

I know that inland you can walk anywhere that there is enough water to float a canoe, even if that water is only there during spring floods. I just assumed it applied to the Lake Michigan shoreline too. Oops!

[Kimstu]

Maybe you need to carry a folding kayak and just take to the water when and where necessary.

[Gfactor]

I guess I don't know the laws here as well as I thought.



More than (I hope) you ever wanted to know about Wisconsin water law: http://learningstore.uwex.edu/pdf%5CG3622.pdf

[Polycarp]

By the way, if the usage on the upper Lakes is the same as on Lake Ontario, the referents are "the high water mark" and "the low water mark" rather than the "tidal" comments made and refuted previously. (Courtesy of a boss nitpicky about his rights regarding waterfront property and New York State Department of Environmental Conservation regulations.)

[racer72]

Unless things have changed, you will have to detour around the the Great Lakes Naval Training Center in North Chicago. I remember a large brick and razor wire topped chain link fence at the northern border of the base and warning signs about entering U.S. Navy property. The fence extended at least 50 feet into the water. The base also has a small harbor type area on the lake made up of a couple of jetties. I doubt the Navy would let you stroll by using the shoreline, even if it meant wading in the water.

[Musicat]

I can only speak for Wisconsin shore, but Qadgop is right. (After you pass his house, wave for my webcam -- it's about 50 miles north!)

The question of "who owns the beach" comes up often around here. I have consulted with legal eagles and the DNR (State Dept. of Natural Resources) and they say that my private property boundary goes up to a surveyed line, usually the "ordinary high water mark" (OHWM). If the lake recedes, my property does not get bigger, but my control of it extends to the water's edge (riparian rights). If the lake rises, my property does not get smaller, even tho it is partly under water, but my control of the land is reduced as it extends only to the water's edge.

Thus the "wet foot rule", which says you are on non-private property as long as your foot is in the water. I've heard that the Great Lakes are "federal" property, although the state lines extend out into the water on maps.

In a more practical sense, anyone walking by my house along the shore is a friend, and welcome to enjoy it, as I might on their beach. If you wave, I might offer you a beer.

FYI, most of the shoreline in Wisconsin is privately owned, but you are unlikely to be challenged. You might have a difficult time negotiating parts of it where there are cliffs or rocks, so carry a pocket boat.

You might have some problems around the Two Rivers Nuclear Power Plant. Rumor is they are pretty jumpy about potential terrorists.

Just in case anyone asks, tidal influences are unmeasurable on the Great Lakes.

[Rusalka]

Lake Geneva in Wisconsin has a path that cuts across properties closely paralleling the shoreline all around the lake. There are no "no trespassing" signs, and some landowners even mantain the path. People frequently walk along this path. The circumference of the lake is almost 30 miles. I was surprised to find out in this thread that there is no automatic shore access provided to the public in Wisconsin. Does Lake Geneva have a special law guaranteeing access along the shoreline? Someone told me once that the law guaranteed access, and that nouveau riche landowners in Lake Geneva were unhappy about it and wanted to change it.

[Cervaise]

G: Dude, you've left a bunch of your stuff on my boss's beach.
D: The surveyor said your boss's property only extends to the high water mark. Cites some Illinois regulation that doesn't even say what he claims it does.
G: The surveyor didn't go to law school. The cases say you can walk on the beach--they don't say you can leave a bunch of crap on it. The cases also say the beach is his property, there are simply some limitations on the normally absolute right to exclude others.


... Lawyers say "dude"?

[Balthisar]

Just in case anyone asks, tidal influences are unmeasurable on the Great Lakes.
Everyone keeps saying this. There's no tidal influence on the Great Lakes, other than the same tidal influence that influences dry land (potential earthquake trigger). Tidal forces squeeze the Earth on the two lateral sides of the planet in relation to the moon. This is low tide because all of the water is squeezed away. Where does it go? It becomes the high tide about 90 degrees away on the planet. The Great Lakes don't encompass enough of the planet to move, and they're not directly connected to the oceans' system. Water falls and locks in particular would stop the tidal flow, if it were capable of traversing fast enough up the St. Lawrence system.

Sorry, just a pet peeve having grown up on Lake Huron and hearing about the tides.

[Diceman]

Michigan's upper peninsula is very sparsely populated. I expect that you might find yourself away from civilization at times. You'd need camping gear.

[gonzomax]

Jump into Lake Superior to clean up. That will test you pace maker. It stays cold.

[BobLibDem]

Yes you can only walk the Mackinac Bridge on Labor Day. This year, however, they are having a swim across the straits. It isn't publicized yet but I'm sure it will happen this year. You can either swim the whole thing or be part of a relay swim boat to boat.

[Mr. Slant]

If it was like Lake Erie, you'd have a couple of spots with steep 80-foot cliffs and unswimmable waters.
I have a family friend with a deck that hangs out over the lake. He's a nice guy, but I'm not sure he'd like a complete stranger on his patio.

[Humble Servant]

Maybe you need to carry a folding kayak and just take to the water when and where necessary.If I have to carry it, it will be a deflated purple dolphin pool toy.

But, since this is my pipe dream, my kayak will be carried by my advance crew which will scout ahead for suitable luncheon spots, deliver picnic hampers to the beach if none are located, negotiate with Navy and Power Plant officials and set up and make camp in the UP. Friendly riparian landowners will be waved at and refreshments will be shared.

Musicat: I look at and love your linked webcam every time I see one of your posts. Is it yours or a public/community thing?

I really love the lake. That would be my reason for wanting to do this.

[kunilou]

What else will stop me?

Winter.

[Qadgop the Mercotan]

Winter.
Nah. Winter's a great time on the Lake Michigan shore. Just dress warm, and don't go on the ice if you don't know what you're doing.

[Musicat]

Musicat: I look at and love your linked webcam every time I see one of your posts. Is it yours or a public/community thing?Thanks for the comment. The webcam is mine, just stuck in a window. My community is still adjusting to the idea that the Internet even exists, so webcams are unusual and foreign to most!

I need to get a better one and upgrade, so if anyone has some recommendations, I'm all ears. I'm looking for a quality image and a zoom lens for starters (so I can zoom in on the beach bunnies walking by on their Michigan Circle Tours :) ). One controllable by the public to pan & zoom is a possibility if the cost could be kept down.

[control-z]

I did some work in a steel mill not far from Gary. They aren't going to let you onto their property. If you somehow managed to avoid security, you are going to be inside of a working steel mill, which isn't the safest place to be if you don't know what you are doing. They dump a lot of slag from the mill near the shore which won't be easy to walk over. Plus, they have a bunch of machinery and facilities right on the water.

You'd have to go a fair distance (either out into the water or inland) to get around them, and that's just one site. There's two other steel mills in that area, plus a lot of other industrial stuff.


So how polluted is Lake Michigan?

[Kalhoun]

Not sure if it's legal for people to fence off their private beaches. You might run into a bit of that even if you are allowed to walk along the shore.

[Gfactor]

The riparian owner may not erect a fence or place a wire or other restraining feature so as to interfere with aforesaid uses by the public. Such placement is not only a restriction of and a hazard to navigation, but is a nuisance, as well as a deprivation of an inherent right of the public. Any member of the public who considers such interference as an invasion of his rights may initiate action in equity (civil suit) to abate the nuisance.http://www.michigan.gov/documents/Water97e_142928_7.pdf

[Humble Servant]

I didn't really expect the legal discussion in starting this thread, but let's go with it. What about a pier out into the lake that blocks access to a small portion of the public zone? Not a real issue of access because you can walk around, but how would one analyze that legally?

In addition, the lake is in a longish low water stage. The beaches are very big right now. Any homeowner who built a fence down to the waterlevel line even as recently as a few years ago will by now probably have at least several additional unfenced yards before the water starts. The water/wind/sand environment also takes it toll on fences--the ones that are about are often dilapidated. It is more typical to see No Trespassing signs--if I was a lucky homeowner I would feel that a fence defeated the beauty of the site.

As far as pollution goes, the lake is again in a lengthening good phase, at least as far as the naked eye can see. Very little trash/scum/oiliness, and even the dead alewives are gone. The beaches in Chicago look great. Some of the clearwater, I hear, is due to the Zebra mussels and so is therefore the result of a negative environmental factor. Also, there are still beach closures in hot weather due to e coli problems. They still say that pregnant women should eat too many lake fish. But it looks a whole lot better than in the memorable past. It really is gorgeous right now.

[ralph124c]

I didn't really expect the legal discussion in starting this thread, but let's go with it. What about a pier out into the lake that blocks access to a small portion of the public zone? Not a real issue of access because you can walk around, but how would one analyze that legally?

In addition, the lake is in a longish low water stage. The beaches are very big right now. Any homeowner who built a fence down to the waterlevel line even as recently as a few years ago will by now probably have at least several additional unfenced yards before the water starts. The water/wind/sand environment also takes it toll on fences--the ones that are about are often dilapidated. It is more typical to see No Trespassing signs--if I was a lucky homeowner I would feel that a fence defeated the beauty of the site.

As far as pollution goes, the lake is again in a lengthening good phase, at least as far as the naked eye can see. Very little trash/scum/oiliness, and even the dead alewives are gone. The beaches in Chicago look great. Some of the clearwater, I hear, is due to the Zebra mussels and so is therefore the result of a negative environmental factor. Also, there are still beach closures in hot weather due to e coli problems. They still say that pregnant women should eat too many lake fish. But it looks a whole lot better than in the memorable past. It really is gorgeous right now.
Do people eat the shellfish from lake Michigan? Are the edible?

[Gfactor]

I didn't really expect the legal discussion in starting this thread, but let's go with it. What about a pier out into the lake that blocks access to a small portion of the public zone? Not a real issue of access because you can walk around, but how would one analyze that legally?



It's covered in a different part of the last thing I linked. Basically the rights of riparian owners include the right to "wharf out," so that's generally ok.

[Khampelf]

Basically the rights of riparian owners include the right to "wharf out,"

After all the talk of easement between low and high water marks, under what circumstances can the riparian landowner start screaming in Klingon and attack with a Batleth?






I wrestled with my better sense and lost.

slinks away.

[Gfactor]

I wrestled with my better sense and lost.

Had a similar thought, but resisted the temptation. Thanks for taking one for the team.

[Musicat]

Do people eat the shellfish from lake Michigan? Are the edible?I'm not aware of any shellfish that are taken in commercial quantities. Clams of any size and lobsters don't exist in these freshwater lakes (never did, AFAIK). The largest mussel is the non-native Quagga or Zebra, (http://www.100thmeridian.org/zebras.asp) the size of a thumbnail, and mostly unwelcome, having been transported from the Black Sea rather recently.

Lamprey eels, (http://www.seagrant.wisc.edu/greatlakesfish/sealamprey.html) which arrived upstream with the opening of the St. Lawrence Seaway, are not harvested for human food, but killed with chemicals, since they prey on fish humans like.

The Hmong harvest smelt in the spring, but this is more of a family business than a commercial one, I believe, and the season is very brief.

There are species of trash fish like carp and alewives that no one has yet been able to harvest for any commercial purpose, even fertilizer.

Needless to say, there are no whales, dolphins or other large mammals.

I have seen small crayfish in creeks but nothing big enough to be worth eating. The main aquatic harvest is in fish: whitefish, bass, salmon (seeded, not native, but they thrive), lake trout, perch, and in some inland lakes, sturgeon, which has become extinct in the Great Lakes. There's much sport fishing in all the Great Lakes, but most of the remaining commercial fishing is in Superior, very little in Michigan. Commercial fishing's heyday peaked 60 years ago in Michigan, earlier in the smaller, eastern lakes.

RE: Piers & docks

It is very difficult in Wisconsin to get the permits to build a pier into the water now. Most piers were built before current, heavy-handed zoning and regulations, and are grandfathered. There are those (usually non-shore landowners) who want ALL piers removed and no new ones built, so there is a constant legal battle.

[Qadgop the Mercotan]

Do people eat the shellfish from lake Michigan? Are the edible?
Nope. Both the zebra mussels, and the quagga mussels which have replaced them for the most part, are invaders, and not even tasty ones!

[Musicat]

Nope. Both the zebra mussels, and the quagga mussels ...are... not even tasty ones!How do you know? Have you ever tasted one?

Mmmmm...deep-fried quaggas with melted butter and hot sauce...

[Qadgop the Mercotan]

How do you know? Have you ever tasted one?

Mmmmm...deep-fried quaggas with melted butter and hot sauce...
OK, now I know you're lying! ;)


BTW, there used to be commercial alewife harvesting in Lake Michigan. Used for fertilizer/cat food. It was halted when the trout and salmon population dropped, for fear that their food supply was endangered.

[Khampelf]

If this thread gets any further Hijacked, we'll be in Cuba, but, as I know you've an interest, QtM, I've read that Quagga mussels have made their way as far south as Arizona's Lake Pleasant.