Is it even FUN being a yankees fan?

[Trunk]

Seriously.

Is it fun at all that anytime one aspect of their game starts to lag a little and puts them back on the same plane as the rest of the league, that they just go spend their way out of it?

What's to pull for? What's the struggle?

Can you at all understand the enjoyment of getting behind the scrappy guy who gets called up late on the season, plays his heart out in spring training next year, and hopes to make the team? Or the enjoyment of having 7 of those guys making up your starting line-up? Or is that just a suckers game?

Can you admire the strategy and eye for talent of people like the Patriots or Athletics front office working within the confines of limits on their funds (either league, or economically imposed)?

Or is this how you like it? No matter how big the hole, there's always enough money to plug it up with and fuck 'em all?

Do you root for things like that in other aspects of your life?

For instance, would you like to drive through a neighborhood of old charming homes, and see a guy put up a 7000 sq. ft home that stretched from one end of his lot to the other, and was 4 stories tall? You'd root for that guy?

When you see the runt of the litter starving to death in nature shows, do you keep rooting for the alpha dogs to get more than they need?

[Sal Ammoniac]

Ah, spoken like a true embittered Orioles fan! I sort of agree with you, except that spending your way out of trouble only works partially. And if it doesn't work, then you end up as the laughingstock. I think this is what Yankees fandom is all about -- hoping that whatever Steinbrenner does works out, because otherwise, you wind up with embarrassment more profound than a Devil Rays fan will ever know.

[Telemark]

As a Red Sox fan (by far the #2 salary in baseball) I can't really complain about the Yankees spending this money. I still don't think they've figured out that you have to nurture upcoming talent, but they needed to do something about their starting pitching this season.

Once you're in for $195 million, what's another $18 mil?

[What Exit?]

Is it even FUN being a yankees fan?
YES!

It is often fun, much of what you write hits home and cuts deep. However, I have always been a Yankee Fan. I was a fan before George bought the team, when the team was bad. I stayed a fan through the bad and crazy times of the Eighties and rejoiced like all hell at their return to the top in 1996 when they were the young and scrappy with few All Stars and a lot of heart. There is no question 1996 was sweeter than the years that followed, but the Dream season of 1998, the perfect games, and the Subway series were very special.

The way the Yanks meant so much to a shaken city in 2001, when non-baseball fans seemed to take heart with a flawed Yankee team rallying to the World Series, the comebacks in the late innings in the World Series and Jeter’s homer just past midnight on November 1. It was very special. Mets fans and even Boston fans for one time only were rooting for the Yanks. It was a unique and special couple of weeks.

The Bronx Zoo years were actually a lot of fun. The team was really gritty and everyone seemed to have a chip on their shoulder except Willie Randolph. Munson and Martin defined gritty in your face style of baseball. They were exciting and characters like Sparky Lyle and Goose added a lot to the team. Of course, there was the first King of Mercenaries in Reggie Jackson, but his October theatrics made up for an awful lot of his baggage.

Yes, Yankee fans expect the Yankees to win. Yes, collectively we are not happy with just playing well. We have all this history handed down to us of what the Yankees were and what the Yankees are and unless we win it all, we are disappointed. So, much of the hits we take, as fans are deserved. Keep in mind though, that these same fans are more often than not, Giants Fans, Knicks Fans and Ranger Fans. The first 12 years I watch football, my team was not just bad, but a sad and pathetic joke. The non-Giant fan, Yankee fans are usually Jet fans and being a Jet fan is even tougher than being a Giant fan. Do we really need to discuss the hardship of being a Rangers or Knicks fan. The Rangers have only won once in my lifetime and are now owned by the worst owner in sports. At least the Knicks were exciting in the Nineties and not having any expectations to win, this was pretty-good. I still love the Knicks-Bulls play-offs of the time, but again, they now owned by the worst owner in sports.

I hope this answers your question,
Jim

[D_Odds]

The Yankees do pay for talent, and they have a history of overpaying for talent that they are trying to correct. The Clemens deal, which is probably the impetus behind this thread, has been in the works since the Yankees signed Andy Pettite. The Yankees rotation has more holes than Clemens can cover, assuming he is still up to the task. The rotation was suspect before the injuries, and now they are throwing out any kid who can throw 60'6" 100 times with middling accuracy. The Yankees put in a bid for Daisuke Matzusaka, but nowhere what was needed to land him. They also didn't participate in many of the big signings this off-season. They did land Kei Igawa, who has been inconsistent (to put it mildly). That, and they are relying on Carl Pavano to come back, which should tell you something about how bad their pitching prospects are.

That said, I think you underestimate the youth on the Yankees, and those with the team that came up from the ground floor. There were no Yankee fans not cheering for Phil Hughes. Robinson Cano just had a stellar rookie year, which made the contributions of Melky Cabrera seem less outstanding, filling in for a fallen Matsui. Last year, they had Andy Phillips behind the lumbering beast known as Giambi at first base; this year it is Josh Phelps. New Yorkers are looking for someone to back up, learn the ropes from, and eventually replace Jorge Posada. This year, we get to see if Wil Nieves will be that person. And lest non-New Yorkers forget - Jeter, Rivera, and Posada have always been Yankees, as was the now-retired Williams.

So yes, the Yankees were willing to spend on Clemens, and had been negotiating to do so for some time. Yes, when depleted by injuries, the Yankees will turn to a mix of experienced talent (Bobby Abreu) and rookies (Cabrera). That said, if you want a new evil empire to fault, continue along I-95 north a few more states, and compare the spending practices there with those of the Yankees over the past few years.

Lastly, a questions for your consideration - would Clemens have gotten $28 million if the Yankees weren't desperate? I'm thinking no, but the 5 starters on the DL put RC in a better bargaining position.

[D_Odds]

... the first King of Mercenaries in Reggie Jackson...While Reggie set the modern standard, I'd give the title of 'first' to Catfish Hunter.

[Ichbin Dubist]

In the past 2 years, Yankees fans have had Robinson Cano, Melky Cabrera, and Chien-Ming Wang to pull for as underdogs. I think many fans are pulling for the AAA guys like Phelps and Karstens to make the team. I know that the popular image of the Yankee fan is that they view the rest of the teams as not so much a worthy opponent as a parts catalog. But I think most people like to root for the same guys and not just an All-Star team.

And there is still considerable pride in that the core of the team -- well, Jeter, Rivera, and Posada anyway -- came up as rookies. A lot of people were miffed at the treatment Bernie Williams got this spring.

I see part of the problem as the frickin' DH -- AL teams generally carry a not-too-useful over-the-hill slugger in one roster spot, and with limited pinch-hitting/double switches there just isn't the role for bench players that there is in the Senior Circuit. Of course, the other part of the problem is this "We have to win the World Series every year" nonsense. At least their overspending now benefits the small-market teams, so that the Royals can go out and sign Gil Meche for far too much money where otherwise they would have had to sign him for merely too much money.

Anyway, I'm a Mets fans, and I hope Clemens goes 0-12, someone mistakenly throws a piece of bat at him, and that MLB finally figures out what it is that he's injecting into his ass.

[Hippy Hollow]

That said, if you want a new evil empire to fault, continue along I-95 north a few more states, and compare the spending practices there with those of the Yankees over the past few years.
Phew! Thought you were talking about the Sox, but as everyone knows 95 goes outside of Boston. ;)

Go Red Sox!

[What Exit?]

While Reggie set the modern standard, I'd give the title of 'first' to Catfish Hunter.
You could say Catfish, but Reggie embodied the concept of the hired gun without loyalty better in my opinion. Catfish's free agency was done more quietly. He did his job and did not cause the many problems and rifts that Reggie did. Catfish also only had one big Free Agency contract and only played for two teams.

Reggie was trades by the A's to the O's then sign the big FA contract with the Yanks, began his 5 year love-hate relation with the Team, Owner, local press and Fans. Signed a big contract with the Angels and jumped one last time back to Oakland. He was the first one to really look like the hired gun.

I did not mean first Free agent, I specifically meant "King of Mercenaries" which is why I put it that way. ;)

Jim

[D_Odds]

In the past 2 years, Yankees fans have had Robinson Cano, Melky Cabrera, and Chien-Ming Wang ...How could I forget Chien-Ming Wang. Let me add, then, to make up for the absence, Scott Proctor. Most Yankee fans were also pulling for Bubba Crosby, who was given chance after chance to make it. And while he had a short Houston vacation, Pettite came up through the Yankees and had his best years wearing pinstripes.

[jsc1953]

The way the Yanks meant so much to a shaken city in 2001, when non-baseball fans seemed to take heart with a flawed Yankee team rallying to the World Series...blah blah blah...very special. Mets fans and even Boston fans for one time only were rooting for the Yanks. It was a unique and special couple of weeks.

Don't delude yourself...Luis Gonzalez will always have a special place in my heart. If NYC were to be struck by a zombie apocalypse, with mutants roaming the streets and millions fleeing in terror -- I'd still root for the Yankees to lose.

[Trunk]

Clemens is a funny new kind of mercenary.

I haven't heard anyone talking about what his actions the last two years might do to baseball.

So, he takes off as much time as he wants. Doesn't need to deal with spring training, or playing in the cold.

He sits out a couple months to see how the season is shaping up, who might REALLY need a pitcher.

Then, his agent starts making a couple of calls.

Why wouldn't a Greg Maddux or Randy Johnson decide to sit out next year until May or June?

Most younger people are looking for a long term deal, so obviously this isn't going to catch on across the league, but I think it's a funny development.

[Marley23]

Why would it not be fun? I know somebody said rooting for the Yankees is like rooting for U.S. Steel, but must you imply it has something to do with character rather than, say, being raised by a Yankee fan?

The fan favorites on the Yankees are the home-grown players (see What Exit?'s post) and the scrappy guys, like Paul O'Neill and Tino Martinez of yore. That's pretty much how it goes for every franchise, I think. Perhaps you've missed the endless talk about how, for all his production, Alex Rodriguez will never get that same kind of love?

It can be a weird experience because of the way some people gloat whenever anything goes wrong for the Yankees. That's a pain in the ass, and you do want the team to do better to shut them up. But from game to game, it's not any different.

[Argent Towers]

For me, it's fun being a Yankees fan because my dad and grandpa are Yankees fans. Yeah, I know this is kind of a stupid reason, and I've never been the kind of person to do something just for the sake of fitting in, but when baseball season comes, the Yankees are something that brings us together, which is never a bad thing. In most of America, being a Yankees fan is much like what I imagine being a Loyalist in colonial America was.

[astorian]

Yeah, why can't the Yankees front office be like the Patriots' front office? You'd never see the Patriots picking up overpaid malcontents like Randy Moss...

Okay, bad example.

In any case, don't kid yourself abvout those "scrappy" little guys playing for nothing more than love of the game. If you're over 10 years old, you're an idiot to think this way. Every one of the scrappy little underdogs on the Royals or the Devil Rays is hoping to have a breakout year and sell himself to the Yankees for megabucks down the road.

There's not a single player on your favorite team who wouldn't abandon you in a heartbeat if he could get another dime somewhere else. The only difference between the Yankees and other teams is that their mercenaries have alredy proven their worth at one time or another.

[WordMan]

Seriously.

Sure - for many of the reasons laid out here. Bottom line is that there is plenty of room for disappointment in being a Yankees fan; I am just not sure how late into October I will have to deal with it, if and when it comes - and when it comes, it is usually accompanied by the frenzied, joyish howls of self-righteous non-Yankee fans who love to stomp on them when they crumble.

Seriously - could there ever be anything more humiliating than The Choke in '04? Sure, I can take my humiliation as a fan and cry on the pile of World Series titles the Yanks have won, but if the Yankees weren't, well, the Yankees, how else would Yankee haters get all the joy out of stuff like The Choke??

And as for Clemens - please; get over it. The Yankees are facing a hugely awful run in pitching injuries while demonstrating they can score runs; this acquisition is a small factor in the overall progression they will go through during the season...

[What Exit?]

Don't delude yourself...Luis Gonzalez will always have a special place in my heart. If NYC were to be struck by a zombie apocalypse, with mutants roaming the streets and millions fleeing in terror -- I'd still root for the Yankees to lose.
I did not mean to imply all Boston and Mets fans, but yes, a surprising number of Red Sox and Met fans either told me they were rooting for the Yanks that one time or said so in interviews. If you don't recall this, than I am now confused.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

As many Yankee fans in this thread have pointed out already. Most Yankee fans do root for the homegrown players more than the big free agents.

Don't get me wrong, now that Clemens has put back on the pinstripes, I hope he goes 13-0 and has a great postseason. I hope A-Rod breaks the single season home run record. Hell, better him than the much worse Barry Bonds holding it.

On the other hand, I would be happier, if the Yanks mainly spent their money on keeping homegrown talent and developing more homegrown talent. Something that Cashman seems to be trying very hard to get the Yanks back to.

Jim

[Argent Towers]

Seriously - could there ever be anything more humiliating than The Choke in '04? Sure, I can take my humiliation as a fan and cry on the pile of World Series titles the Yanks have won, but if the Yankees weren't, well, the Yankees, how else would Yankee haters get all the joy out of stuff like The Choke??


Worse in my mind was the loss of the 2001 series - right after 9/11 - to the Diamondbacks, thereafter known as the Taliban Snakes.

[WreckingCrew]

It was very special. Mets fans and even Boston fans for one time only were rooting for the Yanks. It was a unique and special couple of weeks.



Well, as a Red Sox fan I didn't care what had happened six weeks before, I wanted the Yankees to lose in 2001 and lose hard. So a bottom of the 9th, game seven collapse with Rivera on the mound was pretty much my wet dream.

[lieu]

I'm not a Clemens fan but grudgingly admit he was a tremendous boon for our team. However, when you look at what we'd have had to pay to keep him, to compete with what the Yankees were throwing at him, you gotta roll your eyes and moan "That's freakin' insane." No one's worth that.

Meh, take him. It actually was worth the laugh, knowing that all the Longhorn fans here are finally reallizing Roger never came home out of any sense of loyalty. That was a chucklefest in and of itself.

Baseballs a business. I don't blame Steinbrenner for spending what he does, but he or anyone else so enamored with winning in such a gaudy, unfair manner judges these things far differently than most of us. Winning's great no matter what but you can't tell me it's not sweeter to do it through skill on a level playing field than through brute financial force.

[Marley23]

On the other hand, I would be happier, if the Yanks mainly spent their money on keeping homegrown talent and developing more homegrown talent. Something that Cashman seems to be trying very hard to get the Yanks back to.
I was very happy to see Sheffield traded for prospects this offseason. I liked Randy Johnson, but I didn't mind seeing that deal either.

[Jackmannii]

I know somebody said rooting for the Yankees is like rooting for U.S. Steel.Given how things have gone with U.S. Steel in recent years, rooting for the Yankees is now sort of like rooting for Halliburton.

The basic pull for most Yankees fans is the ability to feel like a winner by rooting for a winner, so naturally they have continued popularity.

If Yankees fans really supported the underdog, there'd be more than a subtle groundswell to give Colter Bean a chance for an extended period. True, his relief appearances for the big club this year were less than awesome, but it's not like the bullpen in general has been hot stuff.

I do thank the Yankees for bailing on their Triple-A affiliate Columbus (OH) and moving to that toddling town, Scranton. Now I can root for the hometown Columbus Clippers* without gagging.

*the Clippers' won-loss record at the moment is comparable to that of the Yankees, even though they are now the Triple-A farm club of the Nationals. :D

[Biggirl]

I grew up in the South Bronx and spent my youthful summers as a Bleacher Creature. I used to watch the Yanks on the radio.

Even now, when watching a whole baseball game is like watching paint dry on a humid day, I still will stop to watch the Yankees bat. Which is good because watching the pitching is painful.

Didn't Posada, Jeter, Riviera and Williams come up through the Yankee minor leagues? Still, George has a habit of paying good money for old has-beens. Ah well, so is the life of a Yankee fan. You take the good with the bad.

[RealityChuck]

YThe way the Yanks meant so much to a shaken city in 2001, when non-baseball fans seemed to take heart with a flawed Yankee team rallying to the World Series, the comebacks in the late innings in the World Series and Jeter’s homer just past midnight on November 1. It was very special. Mets fans and even Boston fans for one time only were rooting for the Yanks. It was a unique and special couple of weeks.Sorry, but Mets fans were not rooting for the MFYs even then. If they wanted to root for the MFYs under any circumstances, they would be MFY fans.

[What Exit?]

Given how things have gone with U.S. Steel in recent years, rooting for the Yankees is now sort of like rooting for Halliburton.

The basic pull for most Yankees fans is the ability to feel like a winner by rooting for a winner, so naturally they have continued popularity.
...

Bull Shit, thanks for ignoring my post and some easy facts. Yes, Yankee fans like to win, but most Yankee fans also root for teams that have little success. Should 2nd, 3rd, 4th and even 5th generation Yankees fans stop rooting for their team because it is too successful? WTF is that crap. Are their front-runners out their rooting for the Yankees? Of course, but most fans pick up their fandom from their family. The Yanks are the oldest and most popular team in the largest metro area in the country. Winning does breed fans, the history of the Yanks add to sense of connecting to the past. The fact that no one alive can remember the Yanks not playing in NY helps. So the Yanks have more fans than any other team, it is not just because they have the highest payroll. There is a lot of tradition.

Do you remember how lowly the Yanks were in the late sixties and early seventies? Do you recall how little the team cost Steinbrenner? Do you recall the joke of seeing Martin hired and fired until it was a complete embarrassment? The fact that George traded away all of our prospects in the Eighties for aging All-Stars?

Despite all this George managed to turn this team into the most valuable franchise in the US by far. We are in the middle of the Yankees second best run. I doubt anything will ever compare to the 1949 to 1964 run, but this has been damn impressive.

The constant Free agent purchases by the Yanks on George's orders have hurt the Yanks more than it has helped them. In the early 90s Gene Michaels rebuilt the Yanks by building up the farm system, making careful trades and getting good starting pitching and great relief pitching. This plan worked great. This is what they need to get back to and are trying to get back to. Clemens is a great big, gold plated, diamond encrusted band-aid in a season of massive rotation injury.

Jim

[Jackmannii]

Bull Shit, thanks for ignoring my post and some easy facts. Yes, Yankee fans like to win, but most Yankee fans also root for teams that have little success. Should 2nd, 3rd, 4th and even 5th generation Yankees fans stop rooting for their team because it is too successful? WTF is that crap. Are their front-runners out their rooting for the Yankees? Of course, but most fans pick up their fandom from their family.My family (native New Yorkers) generated fans of the Dodgers, Giants and later Mets. Nobody could tolerate the front-running associated with the Yanks even then, before the spending disparity between the Yankees and other teams grew to ridiculous proportions.

There have always been teams drawing disproportionate numbers of fans from around the country because of success (other examples including the Dallas Cowboys and Chicago Bulls). I pity Yankee fans when and if spending caps go into effect in major league baseball. Most will never adjust to having to compete with other teams on an equal footing.

Speaking of panic over the prospect of losing - I enjoyed the N.Y. Times pundits forecasting gloom and doom a week and a half ago - and egging on Steinbrenner to fire Joe Torre. You didn't have to know much about baseball to be sure the Yankees would buy themselves back into contention one way or another.

[D_Odds]

A couple of things:
(a) Steinbrenner has a history of, as Biggirl said, "paying good money for old has-beens". That said, Steinbrenner has ceded most control of baseball operations, and is fairly uninvolved in current player decisions, such as Clemens. Hopefully, we won't see many of those boneheaded decisions, such as when George declared, "I just got you the championship" when he signed Steve Trout.

(b) We Yankee fans, or as RealityChuck calls us, MFY fans, have pointed out that the Yankees are, and have been, a mix of home grown and hired talent. The payroll is an advantage, but for an Orioles fan to be kvetching is slightly hypocritical. The Orioles were also known at one point for their high payroll, only they were less successful.

(c) Jackmanii, even a minor league prospect has to get batters out. The bullpen for the MFY has been surpisingly good, all things considered. It's the starting pitching that's questionable.

(d) Lastly, because it is not worth a separate thread, Josh Phelps shot on Kenji Johjima was uncalled for, as was Proctor's retaliation. Washburn plunking Phelps was not only called for, but expected by everyone in the stadium, including Phelps and the umpires.

[Marley23]

(d) Lastly, because it is not worth a separate thread, Josh Phelps shot on Kenji Johjima was uncalled for, as was Proctor's retaliation. Washburn plunking Phelps was not only called for, but expected by everyone in the stadium, including Phelps and the umpires.
I'll be at the game tonight, and I'm expecting at least one HBP.

[D_Odds]

I don't expect it to carry over, Marley23, as Proctor didn't hit anyone. His was just a 'purpose pitch', that served to slow down a very fast moving game. We will find out, though.

[Marley23]

I don't expect it to carry over, Marley23, as Proctor didn't hit anyone. His was just a 'purpose pitch', that served to slow down a very fast moving game. We will find out, though.
I didn't realize he missed the batter and threw clear behind him. The benches did clear. I hope there's no further retaliation, but tempers may be short.

[What Exit?]

I'll be at the game tonight, and I'm expecting at least one HBP.
Enjoy the game. I cut way back this year. No ticket plan for the first time in a while.

[gonzomax]

Roger is a 45 yr old power pitcher. How about a steroid or HGH test. Actually how about testing everybody.

[BobT]

I used to despise the Yankees and all their fans. Then I met them and talked to them.

They're really no different than fans of any other team. They know their team wins a lot, but like Spider-man, with great power comes great responsibility.

If you're looking for the high moral ground in rooting for a sports team, forget about it.

[Marley23]

Roger is a 45 yr old power pitcher.
Does the name Nolan Ryan ring any bells?
How about a steroid or HGH test. Actually how about testing everybody.
I'm pretty sure they do test everybody now. Clemens has been tested for steroids, although that probably means little, and at this point there is no reliable HGH test.

Yeah, why can't the Yankees front office be like the Patriots' front office? You'd never see the Patriots picking up overpaid malcontents like Randy Moss...
This is a good point. The Patriots have a great organization and eyes for talent, so I take nothing away from them, but with the cap increase this year, their offseason resembled nothing so much as the stereotyped Yankee offseason. Character-wise, the Pats are just like the rest of the teams. Except Tennessee and Cincinnati. ;)

[WordMan]

If you're looking for the high moral ground in rooting for a sports team, forget about it.


Annnnnddddd......we have a winner!

This brief moment of wisdom and clarity brought to you by BobT - well done.

[Chronos]

I'm with the OP. Watching an underdog win is exciting. Watching the Yankees win is... Boring. I don't have anything against the Yankees or their fans, the way I do with some teams (you're allowed to root for the Braves if and only if you're from Atlanta), but what do you get out of it? I just don't see it.

[Marley23]

I just don't see it.
Tell me it's boring all you like - baseball isn't even my favorite sport, but Aaron Boone's ALCS home run was the most exciting sporting moment I've ever watched. I smile every time I think about it or post about it.

Particularly since just before the pitch, I turned to my then-girlfriend and the guy whose room we were watching in and said something like "You know, when this guy came to the Yankees, he was struggling badly in his first few games, then hit an extra-inning walkoff home run..."

[gonzomax]

Nolan was before steroids.
The Yankees could have probably gotten the Tigers to rent Verlander for a year for 25 million. It would be worth it to get that kind of money in the organization.

[Marley23]

Nolan was before steroids.
So you're saying it's possible for a 45-year-old power pitcher to be clean, then?

I don't know when the steroid era officially began and I am not trying to imply anything about Ryan, but he was on the same team as Jose Canseco, and a few other steroid users if memory serves, for two years.

[D_Odds]

Tell me it's boring all you like - baseball isn't even my favorite sport, but Aaron Boone's ALCS home run was the most exciting sporting moment I've ever watched. I smile every time I think about it or post about it.

Particularly since just before the pitch, I turned to my then-girlfriend and the guy whose room we were watching in and said something like "You know, when this guy came to the Yankees, he was struggling badly in his first few games, then hit an extra-inning walkoff home run..."
Are you old enough to have watched Bucky Dent's HR against the Red Sox in 1978? Do you remember Jim Leyritz in 1996? Boone makes my top 5 Yankee moments, but those two home runs and the perfect games beat out Boone, IMNSHO.

[Jackmannii]

If you're looking for the high moral ground in rooting for a sports team, forget about it.Well, there's always Division III football.

I think a lot of non-fans of the jump-on-the-bandwagon teams (Yankees, Braves et al) are actually pleased to have a juicy target to root against.

Every time Tampa Bay beats the Yankees, an angel gets his wings. :D

[Idlewild]

As a baseball non-fan living in Boston, it looks like it's a heck of a lot of fun being a Yankees fan up here. We have a couple at the office and they seem to really get into the mustache-twirling villainy of it all. I kind of respect that approach. Last week with the Tom Brady Hat Incident was kind of hilarious.

(I support the Sox nominally and get excited when I'm told it's time to, pretty much.)

[What Exit?]

I used to despise the Yankees and all their fans. Then I met them and talked to them.

They're really no different than fans of any other team. They know their team wins a lot, but like Spider-man, with great power comes great responsibility.

If you're looking for the high moral ground in rooting for a sports team, forget about it.
Wow, just wow. Thank you for the rational words.

Are you old enough to have watched Bucky Dent's HR against the Red Sox in 1978? Do you remember Jim Leyritz in 1996? Boone makes my top 5 Yankee moments, but those two home runs and the perfect games beat out Boone, IMNSHO.
Marley is around 23 or 24 years old, so he did miss the Bucky Dent Homer. I would consider Chambliss' Homer ahead of Boone's and maybe even Reggie's 3rd of the night on the special October night. As far a games, the Perfect Games were incredible and there was also the July 4th no hitter by Rags against the Red Sox with Boggs making the last out. Then there was Guidry's 18 strikeout game. At the time the most by a lefty in a game. That was the day the Yankees started the great comeback against the Red Sox. Boone's Homer and Jeter's November homer and Leyritz's homer were all great modern moments. Boone's was pretty darn special.

Jim

[Rubystreak]

Raised by a dyed in the wool Yankee fan (my dad grew up in Brooklyn and rooted for the Yanks despite being in Dodger-Land), I root for the Yanks. Got to, it's in the blood.

Question for those better informed about these things: why do anti-Yankees folks cite the amount of money the Yanks spend on their roster as a reason to dislike them? What team WOULDN'T spend on talent if they had the cash? You might disagree with what talent they choose to buy/develop, but having and spending $$$? I hear this all the time from Yankee haters, and all I can think is... "you're jealous."

[gonzomax]

I would love to bitch about how the Yankees buy so much talent, but when the Wings could do it in the NHL ,I kinda liked it.

[Ellis Dee]

Yeah, why can't the Yankees front office be like the Patriots' front office? You'd never see the Patriots picking up overpaid malcontents like Randy Moss...

Okay, bad example.No, that's still a good example.

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/sports/sns-ap-fbn-raiders-moss-traded,0,6280405.storyHe even renegotiated downward a contract that would have paid him $9.25 million in 2007 and $11.25 million in 2008.http://www.rotoworld.com/content/playerpages/player_main.aspx?id=1655&sport=NflRandy Moss' revamped contract contains a $500,000 roster bonus.
The one-year pact will pay Moss $2.5 million in 2007 base salary. He can earn another $1.5 million in incentives. While it would be a surprise to see Moss released in training camp, it wouldn't cost the Patriots much.So the Patriots actually are an example of a team that wouldn't bring in an overpaid malcontent. Fairly paid malcontents? Sure, bring em in by the truckload.

Bear in mind that the Patriots have been way under the cap for the past few seasons. Their recent spending spree has simply brought up their payroll to a similar level as the rest of the league. Trying to compare them to the Yankees is disingenuous.

(As a Jets fan, I'm not particularly fond of the Patriots though I respect them greatly.)

ETA: $4.5 million is fair market value for a #1 starting wide receiver.

[Mister Rik]

(d) Lastly, because it is not worth a separate thread, Josh Phelps shot on Kenji Johjima was uncalled for
Yeah, what the hell was that all about? I didn't get to see the game, and had to settle for reading about it afterward. I thought, "Who the hell is Josh Phelps?" I did like Johjima's sarcastic comment after the game, though: "I guess he was just excited that he got a hit." :D And I imagined Torre in the dugout afterward telling him, "You do know you're gonna get drilled in your next at bat?"

I think a lot of non-fans of the jump-on-the-bandwagon teams (Yankees, Braves et al) are actually pleased to have a juicy target to root against.
As a Seattle Mariners and Seahawks fan, I can attest to how irritating it is seeing all these local kids wearing Yankees or Braves hats, or Cowboys or 49ers or Raiders jackets (though I suspect a lot of the Raiders "fans" are actually wannabee thugs). "Old" folks wearing Yankees hats? I cut them some slack because they probably got into the Yankees decades ago, when there were only 8 or 16 teams, none of them local. But then there are the guys (and gals) who want to sit in bars in Seattle team territory and talk about how the local teams suck, and go out of their way to root for whoever the local team is playing against. Then again, I was a Miami Dolphins fan in the early '70s, but that was before the Seahawks existed.

[Marley23]

Marley is around 23 or 24 years old, so he did miss the Bucky Dent Homer.
You've got a good memory - or else you checked my profile ;) - I'll be 25 in a week and a half. The Leyritz homer was probably on a school night.

[8675309]

I like the Cubs, so I equate baseball with heart-crushing blows and extreme hope, only to be dashed again. To me, that IS baseball.

[What Exit?]

You've got a good memory - or else you checked my profile ;) - I'll be 25 in a week and a half. The Leyritz homer was probably on a school night.
Memory, in some thread about music, I was surprised by how young you were. I had originally assumed you were in your mid-thirties. You posted that you were only 22 and I was shocked as your music knowledge of 'classic rock' exceeded mine already despite my being 17 years older. So your age stuck in my memory.

Jim

[lieu]

Question for those better informed about these things: why do anti-Yankees folks cite the amount of money the Yanks spend on their roster as a reason to dislike them? What team WOULDN'T spend on talent if they had the cash? You might disagree with what talent they choose to buy/develop, but having and spending $$$? I hear this all the time from Yankee haters, and all I can think is... "you're jealous."Uuuh... because it absolutely gives them an unfair ADVANTAGE when it comes to the level of players they can sign and that advantage potentially exists not just for a position but extends across the field and rotation.

With footballl, they implemented the salary cap to keep things fair. With baseball, a large market team potentially has far greater funds to assemble talent than those with reduced support. Until revenue sharing or a cap's in place, certain teams have a potential advantage. It's that simple.

I doubt if many folks have anything against Yankee fans per se. Who wouldn't cheer for a team that wins consistently. What do they have now, 25% of the Series victories? I love going to see them play because it's like watching an All-Star team ever time. But is their monetary advantage fair? Heh, why heck no, not in any way, shape or form.

[D_Odds]

Wow, just wow. Thank you for the rational words.


Marley is around 23 or 24 years old, so he did miss the Bucky Dent Homer. I would consider Chambliss' Homer ahead of Boone's and maybe even Reggie's 3rd of the night on the special October night. As far a games, the Perfect Games were incredible and there was also the July 4th no hitter by Rags against the Red Sox with Boggs making the last out. Then there was Guidry's 18 strikeout game. At the time the most by a lefty in a game. That was the day the Yankees started the great comeback against the Red Sox. Boone's Homer and Jeter's November homer and Leyritz's homer were all great modern moments. Boone's was pretty darn special.

Jim
So many great moments, it becomes hard to rank them. I remember Rags game - we were getting ready to go out, but we kept saying "We'll go when someone gets a hit". You know how that turned out. Ended up celebrating the game more than the 4th (plus I was too young to really go out at that time). Also watched Guidry's game and Jackson's smashes, but I missed Chambliss' HR. Can't catch every game. :(

In some of the more infamous incidents, I attended the Oriole/Yankee brawl when Strawberry dove into the Oriole dugout. My wife's company has season tickets 6 rows behind the 'W' on the visitor dugout, and we had the tickets that night. We saw Straw charge, leap, and disappear, not knowing what was going on under us. I also watched when Martin told Reggie to bunt and that whole debacle. There are more, but I can't recount them all at work.

The joys of baseball.

lieu, I agree that the lack of a revenue cap does give big spending teams an advantage during the regular season. The depth a large salary can give you helps over the 162 game grind. Come the post-season, though, the payroll is little advantage. You can buy pennants, but not championships.

[silenus]

You can buy pennants, but not championships.

Which is little consolation to generations of Boston fans.

Of course, the Choke made up for it, a bit. :D

[lieu]

I agree it's no guarantee of a championship. That formula's too complex to be solved by abundant coin alone. But given your druthers would you rather field the players that $194.6 Million bought or those purchased for 15M? The Yankees were $72 Million above their nearest rival last year and over 2 1/2 times above the median (Baltimore, 72.5M). That's one heck of a discrepancy.

D_Odds, I'm only a fan of the game and not a student. Where does the advantage dissappear to in post season play? How does high priced talent suddenly become a non-issue come the playoffs?

[What Exit?]

I agree it's no guarantee of a championship. That formula's too complex to be solved by abundant coin alone. But given your druthers would you rather field the players that $194.6 Million bought or those purchased for 15M? The Yankees were $72 Million above their nearest rival last year and over 2 1/2 times above the median (Baltimore, 72.5M). That's one heck of a discrepancy.

D_Odds, I'm only a fan of the game and not a student. Where does the advantage dissappear to in post season play? How does high priced talent suddenly become a non-issue come the playoffs?
Well the proof is in the pudding. When the Yanks were only among the top 5, they won 4 out of 5. The team was well constructed as well as near the top in salary. Since they went on the Roto-League spending Spree and left everyone behind, the have won the Division every year but have no Championships in that same 5 year period. I am not sure about the 2001 budget and I am leaving it out.

Baseball dynasties require careful building, luck and it sure helps to have the money. However, the money guarantees nothing. In the nineties, Dodgers, Atlanta, Baltimore, Red Sox and the Mets all spent comparable amount to the Yanks. A different team had the highest payroll from year to year. The Yanks had 4 World Series wins and the Braves one. The other 3 added up to none.

Jim

[silenus]

Even talent gets hurt, or needs a day off now and then. Money means you can buy talent and depth at every position. This makes a difference over the length of a season. In a playoff series...not so much. On any given day, and all that.

[Ellis Dee]

why do anti-Yankees folks cite the amount of money the Yanks spend on their roster as a reason to dislike them?In addition to the competitive imbalance lieu discussed, the Yankees overpay the players, which artificially inflates the free agent market, thus pricing otherwise attainable free agents who the Yankees don't even want out of the reach of smaller market clubs. It's not just the Yankees who do that, though.

Someone mentioned football's parity. There is still debate over the merits of that; some people decry the cap era as watered-down mediocre teams while waxing nostalgic for the days of dynasties. (The Patriots helped to quell that talk, but it still persists.)

One of the primary reasons that the NFL has a salary cap is because Wellington Mara agreed to it. He recognized that without the Green Bays of the world, his New York Giants wouldn't have anyone to play against. So he agreed to the salary cap, effectively signing away loads of extra profit he could have made and championships he could have won. George Steinbrenner is no Wellington Mara. Plus baseball is not football; you can turn a profit with 10,000 attendees at your baseball games because there's so many of them. With football you pretty much have to sell out your stadium every game. (Which most of them do, thanks in large part to parity.)

No matter what your sport is, if you don't enforce economic parity, whatever team(s) are local to New York City will have a nigh-insurmountable advantage over everyone else. The NYC market is just too damn big.

[Ellis Dee]

Money means you can buy talent and depth at every position.To quote Marv Levy:

Depth is great, until you have to use it.

[What Exit?]

No matter what your sport is, if you don't enforce economic parity, whatever team(s) are local to New York City will have a nigh-insurmountable advantage over everyone else. The NYC market is just too damn big.
So please explain where all the Championships for the Rangers, Knicks and Mets are? These are NY teams like the Yankees. They all over spend. The Knicks and Rangers as badly as the Yanks. No results that I have seen. Your argument sounds very logical but has a big hole in it. Actual results.

Yes the Yankees overspend, but other teams have and do overspend without results. When the Yankees went completely nuts, they have failed to take home the Championship. I do not think the NYC really do have the "nigh-insurmountable advantage over everyone else" that you believe they do.

Jim

[lieu]

When the Yanks were only among the top 5, they won 4 out of 5. The team was well constructed as well as near the top in salary. Only being in the top 5 in spending somehow disqualifies them as having enjoyed a financial advantage over the league as a whole? I can see 4 other teams that'll agree with that assessment and 25 that'll say "Huh?"

While the Yanks are the current Midas progeny, no matter which teams it is that have the biggest purse, they're in an enviable position. Until all are afforded the same potential pool of players, the field is tilted. Yes, some will overcome the advantage through luck or remaining healthy or getting hot at the right time but you'd be hard pressed to call having the most money to spend, sometimes by several multiples, anything other than an advantage.

[silenus]

Remember, some of us hate the Yankees because they're from New York City, not because they over spend. :p

[What Exit?]

Only being in the top 5 in spending somehow disqualifies them as having enjoyed a financial advantage over the league as a whole? I can see 4 other teams that'll agree with that assessment and 25 that'll say "Huh?"

While the Yanks are the current Midas progeny, no matter which teams it is that have the biggest purse, they're in an enviable position. Until all are afforded the same potential pool of players, the field is tilted. Yes, some will overcome the advantage through luck or remaining healthy or getting hot at the right time but come on, you can't call having the most money to spend, sometimes by several multiples, a disadvantage.
It is not a disadvantage and I did not say it was. I did say that despite the money the team still needs to be well built. As far as all teams having an even playing field, I am not sure I agree. You seem to think every sport should have parity. I am not a huge fan of the NFL's version of parity. IMO, the game is not as good as it was when I was younger.
Should the disparity be less? Sure, how about every MLB team has to spend at least $50 million and a maximum of $120 million. We also have too many teams, probably by 2-4 teams.

Jim

[silenus]

We also have too many teams, probably by 2-4 teams.


There's the quick fix. Dump a couple of the worst teams, and you'll see the talent pool rise in the remaining ones. Bye-bye, Nationals! So long, Rockies! See you later, Devil Rays!

[What Exit?]

There's the quick fix. Dump a couple of the worst teams, and you'll see the talent pool rise in the remaining ones. Bye-bye, Nationals! So long, Rockies! See you later, Devil Rays!
Agreed in full. I think at this point KC should be the 4th. I have a soft spot for Pittsburg as it is such an ancient franchise.

Jim

[silenus]

After seeing last night's game against the Dodgers, I think the Marlins ought to be on the list as well. There were maybe 400 people there. Nobody in Florida roots for the Florida teams, because they are all from somewhere else and retain their loyalty to the "home" team.

[lieu]

It is not a disadvantage and I did not say it was. Nope, you didn't and I tried to fix that but didn't get there in time.

I'm in complete agreement about needing to be well built. It just strikes me that in that endeavor some teams will be able to realize choices that others don't enjoy.

[D_Odds]

There's the quick fix. Dump a couple of the worst teams, and you'll see the talent pool rise in the remaining ones. Bye-bye, Nationals! So long, Rockies! See you later, Devil Rays!That's 3 teams. Which will be 4th - Mets or Red Sox? :cool:

[unwashed brain]

Just to correct a misception earler in the thread: Josh Phelps is a 29 year-old retread who came up with the Blue Jays in 2000 and had a few decent years platooning. He is in no sense homegrown Yankee talent and was in the minors because he couldn't keep a regular job in the majors.

[What Exit?]

Nope, you didn't and I tried to fix that but didn't get there in time.

I'm in complete agreement about needing to be well built. It just stikes me that in that endeavor some teams will be able to realize choices that others don't enjoy.
Well, you are right. The Yankees and to a lesser extend, the Dodgers, Angels, Red Sox and Mets and even the Cubs have the ability to write-off mistakes (like Carl Pavano) and bring in the next free agent or take back the next salary dump. This is a big advantage.

If the Yanks had kept up their farm system and spent money on young pitching instead of older hitters, the payroll would never have gotten so high. This current payroll is the result of patching problems caused by years of in-fighting and bad drafts and trading of the few prospect developed. Exactly the same thing that killed the Yanks in the Eighties, accept this time they have a better central core, a consistent if over-rated manager and have spent even more money than in the Eighties.

No team with any common sense would have signed Giambi, Sheffield & Damon. Maybe one of them, but not all three. The Yanks have also burnt out a lot of good middle-relief desperately looking for the next Nelson, Stanton & Mendosa combination. Torre finds one or two arms he trusts and fries them.

Jim

[Marley23]

I think at this point KC should be the 4th.
I don't know... but it would be kind of fun to see Gil Meche's face as he whines to the devil, "But you promised me the contract of my dreams!"

[Trunk]

Rubystreak]Question for those better informed about these things: why do anti-Yankees folks cite the amount of money the Yanks spend on their roster as a reason to dislike them?Teams from vastly different markets are in direct competition with each other.

In business, I don't care if some company develops a massive competitive advantage over it's rivals.

But, sports is different. The teams are members of a "league" which they benefit from while damaging the robustness of. And some of us enjoy seeing a good sports league. E.g., I'm much more of an NFL fan than a Ravens (local) or a Patriots (the team I grew up with). They put a good "product" on the field each week that I like to watch. Same with NASCAR.

But, in baseball, I believe the Yankees behavior is detrimental to the league. They've taken what should be a competition on the field, and made it a competition between owners where the primary advantages don't come from wise decision making, or coaching, or scouting but rather from the status of being in a large market.

To implement some parity in baseball, the league implemented a luxury tax. . .a fee you have to pay to the league if your team salary is in excess of a specific amount (about $150M). Well, what the Yankees pay luxury tax is greater than the entire salary of some teams. It's not just a little out of whack. Their pitching staff alone has a higher payroll than the entire payroll of other teams.

Imagine if someone did that in football. . .spent more simply on offense than other teams spent on offense and defense combined.

This latest acquisition is just the latest in a long string.

[jsc1953]

Remember, some of us hate the Yankees because they're from New York City, not because they over spend. :p

Tell it, brother. I've hated the Yankees since the 1962 World Series, when the players were all underpaid.

[Ellis Dee]

So please explain where all the Championships for the Rangers, Knicks and Mets are? These are NY teams like the Yankees. They all over spend. The Knicks and Rangers as badly as the Yanks. No results that I have seen. Your argument sounds very logical but has a big hole in it. Actual results. Excellent point; you can't argue with results.

The Knicks currently are and the Rangers recently were longterm disasters. I'd say the Mets have been successful, though they don't have any recent World Series wins to show for it. All three spend a crapload of money compared to the rest of their respective leagues.

[Trunk]

Excellent point; you can't argue with results.

The Knicks currently are and the Rangers recently were longterm disasters. I'd say the Mets have been successful, though they don't have any recent World Series wins to show for it. All three spend a crapload of money compared to the rest of their respective leagues.
Actually, you can argue with results.

Things that take place over a 162 game season have more correlation with the actual attributes of the team than things that happen over the course of a 5-7 game playoff. In that measure, almost no one has touched the Yanks and Sox over the past 5 years or so.

I really don't know how the Rangers spend. The Knicks are notoriously stupid. . .but at least they have the option of being stupid. Starbury and Steve Francis might be terrible acquisitions, but I bet the the Royals would be pretty happy to have their equivalents.

Money doesn't guarantee success and lack of money doesn't guarantee failure, but that's the way I'd bet it. If anyone wants to take the bottom 15 payroll teams in any league, and give me the top 15 payroll teams, I'll take that bet for any number you can name.

[storyteller0910]

So please explain where all the Championships for the Rangers, Knicks and Mets are? These are NY teams like the Yankees. They all over spend. The Knicks and Rangers as badly as the Yanks. No results that I have seen. Your argument sounds very logical but has a big hole in it. Actual results.


I don't really follow hockey, but to compare the Yankees with the Knicks is a little disingenuous. Basketball has a salary cap, and in spite of the many clever ways that exist to circumvent its actual restrictions and allow some teams to spend more than others, the cap does still limit spending and flexibility. Were the Knicks in the same situation as the Yankees - with the freedom to spend as much as they wanted - they would have the ability to free themselves from the various weights they've tied on over the last few years, cutting the noncontributors and paying better players.


Yes the Yankees overspend, but other teams have and do overspend without results. When the Yankees went completely nuts, they have failed to take home the Championship. I do not think the NYC really do have the "nigh-insurmountable advantage over everyone else" that you believe they do.


Well, I've said this elsewhere, but the problem isn't so much that they have an insurmountable advantage; it's that they have a very, very significant advantage. This destroys my ability to enjoy the players, coaches, and staff for their accomplishments, which in turn precludes my enjoyment of the team. It is taken on faith among Yankees fans that Joe Torre and Brian Cashman are an outstanding manager and general manager, respectively. Is this true? I honestly have no idea. As far as I can see, Cashman and Torre are simply not working in the same game as any other Major League GM or manager. Comparing them with, say, Walt Jocketty and Ron Gardenhire, again respectively, is impossible; you might as well ask whether Shakespeare was better than Salvador Dali. Jocketty and Cashman have completely different jobs. And half the fun of baseball is comparing one thing with another, right?

Further, and as I've said before, because the Yankees go to such extremes to ensure winning, the times that they win are boring. Other than to a Yankee fan, a Yankee championship year is never an exciting year, in the end, because it has the feel of a foregone conclusion. When the Yankees spend so much more than everyone else, the only outcome that is interesting is a Yankee loss, so I root against the Yankees - passionately - because I want interesting baseball. I said this in the other thread too: if they hadn't signed Clemens, the Yankees had a chance to become an honest-to-goodness feel-good story.

I mean, picture it. It's October 14 in hypothetical world, and Yankee Stadium is packed. The fans are out of their minds, because for a few horrible weeks midsummer, no one thought they'd come anywhere near this moment. With starting pitchers dropping like flies to injury and several key players slumping or showing signs of injury, the Yankees found themselves 10 games back of the first place Red Sox, 8 games out of the Wild Card, and fading fast. But General Manager Brian Cashman calmly resisted talk of expanded his already bloated payroll by signing Roger Clemens. "We're already spending $195 million," said Cashman, "and we believe that we have 25 outstanding players on this roster. Plus, Roger expects to be able to come and go as he pleases, and that's not how we do things here. We are the Yankees, and we expect a certain set of behaviors from the players on our team. Roger is a great pitcher, maybe the best in my lifetime, but we're going to war with our guys."

Clemens instead made his return to Boston, where he turned an already stacked Red Sox rotation into something nearly invulnerable. The Yankees, for their part, fought to keep pace. Manager Joe Torre turned in the greatest managerial job of his career, ably juggling a parade of starters that included Matt DeSalvo, Jeff Karstens, Brian Bruney, Kei Igawa, and homegrown prospect Phillip Hughes, and getting the most of a depleted, patchwork bullpen. And little by little, the Yankees veterans responded. Derek Jeter hit .360 after the All-Star break, keeping his team in the race. Alex Rodriguez finished his best-ever season with 59 home runs and another MVP award. In early June, Cashman finally re-signed fan favorite Bernie Williams, who contributed a surprising .505 slugging percentage in three weeks of sub work for an injured Johnny Damon. Finally, just before the deadline, Cashman pulled off a coup when she shipped prospects Humberto Sanchez and Jose Tabata, along with starter Kei Igawa, to the Houston Astros for ace pitcher Roy Oswalt. The Yankees managed to squeak into the playoffs by a hair, defying the chorus of media voices that called them "finished" in June. After winning their opening round series, they come to the Stadium to start a seven game set against the Red Sox, the prohibitive favorites with the rotation full of store bought All-Stars. Against them the Yankees would send a few superstars, but also Jeff Karstens as a game 4 starter against Clemens. None of the pundits are giving them much of a chance. But the fans, the casual fans, the fans of other teams in other cities - they're rooting for the underdog. For the team of character guys who didn't bow to the pressure to bring in an asshole mercenary the minute the going got tough. For the Yankees.

The Yankees will never, ever give the baseball world that story, though, so I'll continue to root against them until the Great Stein himself comes to swallow my soul and take me into the darkness.

[Yookeroo]

Uuuh... because it absolutely gives them an unfair ADVANTAGE

Why is this unfair?

In addition to the competitive imbalance lieu discussed, the Yankees overpay the players, which artificially inflates the free agent market,

Why is this artificial?

[What Exit?]

I don't really follow hockey, but to compare the Yankees with the Knicks is a little disingenuous. Basketball has a salary cap, and in spite of the many clever ways that exist to circumvent its actual restrictions and allow some teams to spend more than others, the cap does still limit spending and flexibility. Were the Knicks in the same situation as the Yankees - with the freedom to spend as much as they wanted - they would have the ability to free themselves from the various weights they've tied on over the last few years, cutting the noncontributors and paying better players. ...snip...
Nice post and mostly valid. I am not a huge fan of Clemens returning. I never liked him, I resented trading Boomer for him in the first place, all those years ago.

The Rangers until the strike spent and wasted gross amounts of money. The owners are now protected from themselves by the league imposed salary cap. The Knicks have been mis-managing the team horribly while outspending the rest of the NBA for years. Perhaps it is not a great analogy, but I think it is well worth noting at least.

What you said about Torre and Cashman, well I already mentioned in this thread, that Torre is over-rated. Cashman, I am still waiting to see, but he is no Gabe Paul so far. That was a Yankee GM* that was a genius. Gene Michaels and George Weiss are two more that come to mind quickly. This Clemens deal was an act of desperation, It appears the Boss panicked and ordered Brian to get it done. The capitulated on everything and bid against themselves on the money. Much like the Giambi deal many years back.

Jim

* Technically he was President, but he acted in the role of the GM making great trade after great trade.

[storyteller0910]

Nice post and mostly valid. I am not a huge fan of Clemens returning. I never liked him, I resented trading Boomer for him in the first place, all those years ago.

The Rangers until the strike spent and wasted gross amounts of money. The owners are now protected from themselves by the league imposed salary cap. The Knicks have been mis-managing the team horribly while outspending the rest of the NBA for years. Perhaps it is not a great analogy, but I think it is well worth noting at least.

What you said about Torre and Cashman, well I already mentioned in this thread, that Torre is over-rated. Cashman, I am still waiting to see, but he is no Gabe Paul so far. That was a Yankee GM* that was a genius. Gene Michaels and George Weiss are two more that come to mind quickly. This Clemens deal was an act of desperation, It appears the Boss panicked and ordered Brian to get it done. The capitulated on everything and bid against themselves on the money. Much like the Giambi deal many years back.

Jim

* Technically he was President, but he acted in the role of the GM making great trade after great trade.

All a reasonable perspective, and to be fair, I'm definitely not one of the people who's running around complaining that the Yankees are ruining baseball. I enjoy rooting against the Yankees; it's part of the fun. You enjoy rooting for the bad guys; nothing wrong with that :-)

So see you in a couple weeks, when Jose Reyes hits for the cycle against your new goon.

[gonzomax]

So you're saying it's possible for a 45-year-old power pitcher to be clean, then?

I don't know when the steroid era officially began and I am not trying to imply anything about Ryan, but he was on the same team as Jose Canseco, and a few other steroid users if memory serves, for two years.
Roger was involved in a steroid investigation. Ryan was not that I am aware of. Steroids have been around a long time but most of us were unaware.



http://www.juiceenewsdaily.com/0605/sports/positive.html

[gonzomax]

http://thesteroidera.blogspot.com/2006/10/evidence-against-roger-clemens.html

Here is another story on Roger .

[Scruloose]

Trunk, you'll appreciate this article by Rick Reilly (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/inside_game/magazine/life_of_reilly/news/1999/10/26/life_of_reilly/):Rooting for the Yankees takes all the courage, imagination, conviction and baseball intelligence of Spam. It's like rooting for Brad Pitt to get the girl or for Bill Gates to hit Scratch 'n' Win. (This is why I'm proposing legislation that would allow only those born in one of the five New York boroughs to be Yankees fans. All others who root for the team will be considered overdog-loving, Eveready-chucking, bandwagon-hopping, fair-weather, brownnose, pucker-lipped human goiters and be required to turn in their pinstriped underwear or be tossed into the East River with only Chuck Knoblauch to throw them a life preserver.)

[Marley23]

Roger was involved in a steroid investigation.
Your first link says he was rumored to have tested positive, not that he was "involved in an investigation." Have you read anything about the Grimsley case except a 'steroid blog?' Grimsley said he never mentioned Clemens' name in the investigation, and the government said the report that Grimsley had dropped those names was inaccurate.
Steroids have been around a long time but most of us were unaware.
That means nothing. Ryan was a baseball player and would have known long before the public did, especially since he was on the same team as Canseco and Palmerio - and Pudge Rodriguez, who Canseco has also accused. Again, I don't think Ryan used.

[Ellis Dee]

I really don't know how the Rangers spend. The Knicks are notoriously stupid. . .As far as I am aware, the Knicks and Rangers are owned by the same organization. (Cablevision.)

One big problem with having a New York City team is that because there is so much money available, New York fans "won't tolerate" rebuilding seasons. There is no "we'll get 'em next year" mentality when you can throw a 50 million at overpriced big-name stars who should (in theory) be great. So for the better part of a decade, the Rangers eschewed patient cultivation of young talent in favor of bringing in grossly overpaid superstar has-beens. (eg: Eric Lindros.) The rosters never came together as a cohesive unit, and as a result the team was a perennial embarassment.

From what I can gather, the Knicks are in the middle of that right now. The Rangers only managed to get out of the downward spiral because of the newly imposed hard cap; they made the playoffs both years under the cap after not making it for 7 consecutive seasons.

It is to the Yankees credit that they have managed to avoid this pattern. (Though I've heard it said that team chemistry isn't as important in baseball as it is in hockey or basketball.)

[What Exit?]

As far as I am aware, the Knicks and Rangers are owned by the same organization. (Cablevision.)

It is to the Yankees credit that they have managed to avoid this pattern. (Though I've heard it said that team chemistry isn't as important in baseball as it is in hockey or basketball.)
The Dolans, who own Cablevision and MSG do own both teams. They are the worst owners in sports. Strangely the other member of the family, does a good job owning the Indians.

As far a team chemistry, it is important, but baseball is different from the other sports as the Starter is different each day and they play so many games. Momentum in baseball is determined by the next days starter. The QB normally plays every offensive down. The Center in BB plays most of the game and if healthy never gets a game off. Goalies at least get some games often occasionally but nothing compared to starting pitchers.

Jim

[astorian]

Instead of whining about the "unfair" advantage th eYankees supposedly have, you might want to ask why the "small market" teams who've gotten so many millions in payroll tax dollars from the Yankees haven't done anything productive with that money.

It's mighty obvious that some small market owners who cry poverty are taking George Steinbrenner's money and pcoketing it, rather than making any effort to improve their own rosters.

In my opinion, that makes teams like the Royals parasites at best, and thieves at worst, more worthy of scorn than pity.

[Trunk]

Instead of whining about the "unfair" advantage th eYankees supposedly have, you might want to ask why the "small market" teams who've gotten so many millions in payroll tax dollars from the Yankees haven't done anything productive with that money.

It's mighty obvious that some small market owners who cry poverty are taking George Steinbrenner's money and pcoketing it, rather than making any effort to improve their own rosters.

In my opinion, that makes teams like the Royals parasites at best, and thieves at worst, more worthy of scorn than pity.
You wonder why the Royals haven't put together a roster to compete with the 200 million the Yankees spend when their 35 million dollar spending account is bumped up to 40 million?

The luxury tax is worse than doing nothing because while doing nothing it gives the league the ability to claim they're trying to do something.

[Marley23]

You wonder why the Royals haven't put together a roster to compete with the 200 million the Yankees spend when their 35 million dollar spending account is bumped up to 40 million?
Aren't the Royals one of the more profitable teams in the league, or am I thinking of the Twins?

[D_Odds]

As far a team chemistry, it is important, but baseball is different from the other sports as the Starter is different each day and they play so many games.

Jim
Were you listening to the game on the radio Monday? They said the exact same thing.

[What Exit?]

Were you listening to the game on the radio Monday? They said the exact same thing.
Not Monday, but I can remember Bill White, Frank Messer and Scooter* talking about this when I was a kid. It is probably as old an idea as the 4-5 man rotation. ;)

Jim

* Scooter is Phil Rizzutto

[Freddy the Pig]

Instead of whining about the "unfair" advantage th eYankees supposedly have, you might want to ask why the "small market" teams who've gotten so many millions in payroll tax dollars from the Yankees haven't done anything productive with that money.Annual "luxury tax" distribution per team = $1 million
Annual advantage in Yankee payroll over typical small-market team = $120 million

[D_Odds]

Not Monday, but I can remember Bill White, Frank Messer and Scooter* talking about this when I was a kid. It is probably as old an idea as the 4-5 man rotation. ;)

Jim

* Scooter is Phil RizzuttoUsed to love how they would always rotate one of them to the radio broadcast every three innings.

I don't especially believe that quote - baseball teams will field a core of 8 players, and if you get several of them on streaks, you can gain momentum. A pitcher who is confident he will get run support will pitch more aggressively, and if hitters are getting quality starts, they can be more aggressive, and it all snowballs. It's the kind of quote used when a team is neither consistently losing nor winning, and announcers will trot out a contradictory quote when a team is on a winning or losing streak.

[silenus]

Chemistry can make or break a competent team. Ask the Dodgers. Bradley was a poison to the team, and the whole clubhouse suffered from his presence. Once he was gone, (and certain front-office people vanished) the team rebounded nicely.

[robardin]

All the payroll-and-expectations salvos aside...

...is it even fun being a Yankees fan at Yankees Stadium (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/10/sports/baseball/10stadium.html), where apparently "showing patriotism" during the playing of God Bless America during seventh inning stretch is being enforced with security personnel and chains? :eek: :confused: :( :dubious:

Take me out to the ballgame... So I don't end up in Gitmo??

I thought it was already overwrought that the Yanks were the only team in MLB still playing God Bless America during every home game (instead of just Sundays and holidays). I knew about that, and the flying eagle bit during the anthem for playoff games. That's at least "merely" showy posing. But glaring guards holding chains giving admonitions to paying fans? That's more than kinda creepy.

[What Exit?]

All the payroll-and-expectations salvos aside...

...is it even fun being a Yankees fan at Yankees Stadium (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/10/sports/baseball/10stadium.html), where apparently "showing patriotism" during the playing of God Bless America during seventh inning stretch is being enforced with security personnel and chains? :eek: :confused: :( :dubious:

Take me out to the ballgame... So I don't end up in Gitmo??

I thought it was already overwrought that the Yanks were the only team in MLB still playing God Bless America during every home game (instead of just Sundays and holidays). I knew about that, and the flying eagle bit during the anthem for playoff games. That's at least "merely" showy posing. But glaring guards holding chains giving admonitions to paying fans? That's more than kinda creepy.
Geez, I've been to 40+ games since 9/11. I have never experienced a problem with this. I think this is much to do about nothing.

Jim

[lieu]

Doesn't the article say this measure was taken on behalf of fans complaining about the disrespect shown by others and that since it's been adopted, complaints have ceased? Sounds like they're simply respecting the desires of the masses, not imposing some unreasonable, or unusual (8 other teams doing something similar) hardship.

[D_Odds]

Geez, I've been to 40+ games since 9/11. I have never experienced a problem with this. I think this is much to do about nothing.

Jim
I have. I hate that song and the jingoism behind it. If I don't time my exit correctly, security will chain the aisles although they won't do anything other than glare at you if you unchain and exit.

ETA
lieu, as a former serviceman and an atheist, I don't feel it proper to be asked to pray for the fallen, nor do I have any respect for that song and its implication that America is God's preferred country. I'm definitely in the minority at the stadium, though. If the Yankees would changed the wording of the request and choose a different song, I'd have no problems at all.

[What Exit?]

I have. I hate that song and the jingoism behind it. If I don't time my exit correctly, security will chain the aisles although they won't do anything other than glare at you if you unchain and exit.
Well, I usually race to the Men's room right before they play YMCA, so I am never trying to be any place else for the playing of God Bless of America. I would have no complaints, if they stopped playing it. I find the YMCA song and the WAVEs the most offensive things at the games. ;)

Jim

[lieu]

Is the article incorrect in that both ends aren't chained to a fixture, that one end remains held by the off-duty officer?

[D_Odds]

Is the article incorrect in that both ends aren't chained to a fixture, that one end remains held by the off-duty officer?
There aren't that many off-duty uniformed officers and security personnel there.

[WordMan]

Geez, I've been to 40+ games since 9/11. I have never experienced a problem with this. I think this is much to do about nothing.

Jim


I've been to 15+ games and can't recall ever being stopped, or noticing it as a hassle.

It certainly doesn't look good as it is portrayed, but the reality, in my experience, is not oppressive...

[robardin]

Well, I usually race to the Men's room right before they play YMCA, so I am never trying to be any place else for the playing of God Bless of America. I would have no complaints, if they stopped playing it. I find the YMCA song and the WAVEs the most offensive things at the games. ;)
They're still doing the YMCA thing at the Stadium? Good grief. At least it's not the Macarena.

...or the song that's been added to the 8th inning at Shea Stadium (along with many other MLB stadiums), Neil Diamond's Sweet Caroline. Brrrr.

Quasi-religious jingoism is one thing, scratching fingernails across the chalkboard of my soul is another.

[D_Odds]

They're still doing the YMCA thing at the Stadium? Good grief. At least it's not the Macarena.Don't give them any ideas, please.
...or the song that's been added to the 8th inning at Shea Stadium (along with many other MLB stadiums), Neil Diamond's Sweet Caroline. Brrrr.We get Cotton-Eye Joe. Sweet Caroline would be a change of pace.
Quasi-religious jingoism is one thing, scratching fingernails across the chalkboard of my soul is another.After the first 100 times, all the stadium sounds are "scratching fingernails across the chalkboard of my soul". Kate Smith's God Bless America just hit that faster, like the second time they played it.

[Cheesesteak]

One of the primary reasons that the NFL has a salary cap is because Wellington Mara agreed to it. He recognized that without the Green Bays of the world, his New York Giants wouldn't have anyone to play against. So he agreed to the salary cap, effectively signing away loads of extra profit he could have made and championships he could have won. Or, he realized that his stadium is sold out with a 20 year long waiting list for season tickets, even when the team sucks, and his TV revenues are fixed with the league's network deal. If he chose to spend 2x the league average on players, he'd be spending a hell of a lot more than everyone else, with a really limited upside on revenue.

Baseball is totally different, the Yankees wouldn't come close to selling 4 million tickets a year if they didn't have a top notch team. The YES network wouldn't be worth much of anything if the team didn't win consistently. There is huge upside to spending on talent for the Yankees, not so much for the Giants.

All the spending does anyway is guarantee a good team and most likely a playoff spot. Plenty of smaller market teams make it to the playoffs win in the playoffs and win the WS. Granted, markets that can't manage to draw any kind of fan interest and spend nothing on players have trouble competing. Boo. Hoo.

[Telemark]

...or the song that's been added to the 8th inning at Shea Stadium (along with many other MLB stadiums), Neil Diamond's Sweet Caroline. Brrrr.
I thought that was just a Boston thing? Has it actually spread to other stadiums? Shudder....

Even we don't know why it's played. (But I secretly love it)

[lieu]

D_Odds, I missed your post #96 before. Understand completely.

[robardin]

I thought that [Sweet Caroline] was just a Boston thing? Has it actually spread to other stadiums? Shudder....
I heard it started in Boston, but I've heard it at Shea starting sometime towards the end of last year, and also seen it on TV being played at other NL stadiums for Mets road games this year. So it is definitely spreading. Like Deviled Spam.

(...which doesn't seem to exist any more, not being listed at Hormel's website (http://www.hormel.com/brands/brandview3.asp?id=2&catitemid=3) for Spam products, but I used to keep a can of it from back in the early 1990's on my desk, with its verbally delicious motto, It's Spam... THAT SPREADS!)

[Telemark]

I heard it started in Boston, but I've heard it at Shea starting sometime towards the end of last year, and also seen it on TV being played at other NL stadiums for Mets road games this year. So it is definitely spreading.
Here's the origin story (http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2005/05/29/another_mystery_of_the_diamond_explained_at_last/). It's much more recent then I would have imagined.

[Crawlspace]

But, in baseball, I believe the Yankees behavior is detrimental to the league. They've taken what should be a competition on the field, and made it a competition between owners where the primary advantages don't come from wise decision making, or coaching, or scouting but rather from the status of being in a large market.Define large market. In my lifetime I've seen the Indians pine about the disadvantages of being in a small market, to selling out every home game for years while fielding some of the greatest lineups in history, to again pining about the disadvantages of being in a small market. Market size is not static, but very much dependent on wise corporate decision making, coaching, and scouting. Atlanta is not a terribly big place, and slightly smaller than B'more, but the Braves were one of the largest markets in baseball for much of the 90's for exactly those reasons.

I dont even buy the, "But the tri-state area is so big the Yankees have a much larger built in fan base." True many more people live in the NYC area than say Milwaukee, but they are also competing against 8 other professional sports teams and all manner of other attractions for dollars.

Also, you're argument in favor of parity in baseball run contrary to your appreciation of scrappy teams and love of the underdog. Part of the joy many people took in seeing the Yankees lose to the Diamondbacks, Marlins, and Tigers was the David vs. Goliath storyline. If all teams have equal funding then it turns into team A from certain city beats team B from another city -- which is exactly how I view the NFL. There are no heroes or villains, just assemblages of players that base their life out of a certain city for a few years. Not to mention that there is little evidence that the revenue sharing and salary cap used by the NFL increases the turn over of contenders. 14 different teams have won the past 20 WS, while 12 have won the past 20 Superbowls. In my opinion, the perceived benefit of the salary cap has much more to do with the fact that half of all the teams in the NFL make the playoffs. Go back and see who would have made the playoffs in baseball over the past 20 years if half the teams were selected. Given the incredibly stochastic nature of baseball it's not unreasonable to assume that anyone of them could have made a run at the championship.

I'm not a football fan, but I understand how the salary cap benefits the NFL. Many football fans can and do watch nearly every interesting game on all season long. In that case it behooves them to make every match up interesting. With baseball, after following my team I'm lucky if I get a chance to watch condensed highlights of the other games.



As to your original post: Is it any fun being a Yankee's fan? Not so much anymore. I haven't agreed with many of the off season moves recently. At the end of the '04 season I thought the better long term financial decision to their lack of center fielder would have been moving Jeter to center, ARod back to short, and signing a competent 3rd baseman. I pine for the days when Brosius was going for 100 RBI from the 8-9 hole (or better yet, when they would pretty much sign Louis Soho sometime during the bottom of the ninth inning, pull him from the stands, stick him in uniform, and have him deliver a pinch hit game winning double). But still, they almost always make it interesting. And that's why I watch, to be entertained.

[Mister Rik]

(or better yet, when they would pretty much sign Louis Soho sometime during the bottom of the ninth inning, pull him from the stands, stick him in uniform, and have him deliver a pinch hit game winning double).
We Seattle fans love that guy :D

[Ellis Dee]

Not to mention that there is little evidence that the revenue sharing and salary cap used by the NFL increases the turn over of contenders. 14 different teams have won the past 20 WS, while 12 have won the past 20 Superbowls. In my opinion, the perceived benefit of the salary cap has much more to do with the fact that half of all the teams in the NFL make the playoffs.The salary cap hasn't been in effect for 20 years, so that's an unfair comparison. It was instituted in 93 IIRC. (And oddly, that was pretty much the exact time the NFC stopped winning the Superbowl, though it's gone back and forth since the merger.)

Also, 12 out of 32 isn't exactly half the league; my calculator says that 37.5% of the teams make the playoffs. Two years after the cap was instituted there were 30 teams, which meant that 40% of the teams made the playoffs.

The NFL is no MLB when it comes to thinning the herd come playoff time, but it's a far cry from the NBA and NHL.

[Ellis Dee]

Looking it up, the cap was instituted in 94, not 93. So in the 13 seasons under the cap there were 10 different champions:

06 Colts
05 Steelers
04 Patriots
03 Patriots
02 Bucs
01 Patriots
00 Ravens (fuckers!)
99 Rams
98 Broncos
97 Broncos
96 Packers
95 Cowboys
94 49ers

In the 13 seasons prior to that there were only 6 different champions, with 11 of them being won by only 4 teams:

93 Cowboys
92 Cowboys
91 Redskins
90 Giants
89 49ers
88 49ers
87 Redskins (strike year; cheap victory by crossing the picket lines early)
86 Giants
85 Bears
84 49ers
83 Raiders
82 Redskins
81 49ers

So from 6 teams winning 13 championships to 10 teams winning 13 championships is a pretty drastic increase in parity. This is compelling evidence that the revenue sharing and salary cap used by the NFL increases the turn over of contenders.

[Jackmannii]

They're still doing the YMCA thing at the Stadium? Good grief. At least it's not the Macarena.A story in yesterday's N.Y. Times says the Yankees are the only team in MLB that still plays God Bless America during every home game, and also the only team that chains up major stadium aisles during its playing, so that fans won't "disrepectfully" move around during the song.

Last I checked, "God Bless America" was not our national anthem, but George Steinbrenner has his own ideas on enforcing "patriotism".

[Gadarene]

A story in yesterday's N.Y. Times says the Yankees are the only team in MLB that still plays God Bless America during every home game

Are you sure about this? I'm fairly certain that a good number of ballparks still play God Bless America every game. I was at Camden Yards last Sunday, and I heard it then.

[What Exit?]

A story in yesterday's N.Y. Times says the Yankees are the only team in MLB that still plays God Bless America during every home game, and also the only team that chains up major stadium aisles during its playing, so that fans won't "disrepectfully" move around during the song.

Last I checked, "God Bless America" was not our national anthem, but George Steinbrenner has his own ideas on enforcing "patriotism".
Are you sure about this? I'm fairly certain that a good number of ballparks still play God Bless America every game. I was at Camden Yards last Sunday, and I heard it then.
This was covered earlier in the thread by robardin. (http://208.100.26.199/sdmb/showthread.php?p=8557599&postcount=93)
I thought it was already overwrought that the Yanks were the only team in MLB still playing God Bless America during every home game (instead of just Sundays and holidays). I knew about that, and the flying eagle bit during the anthem for playoff games. That's at least "merely" showy posing. But glaring guards holding chains giving admonitions to paying fans? That's more than kinda creepy.
It was also discussed how this is not really that big of a deal, read the replies that followed the post.

Jim

[gonzomax]

Why ,if Roger knew he was going to sign this year, did he not get in shape. Sign him and wait til at least July. He should have been ready to go.

[What Exit?]

Why ,if Roger knew he was going to sign this year, did he not get in shape. Sign him and wait til at least July. He should have been ready to go.
He is expected to pitch in the majors by end of May or Early June. He did keep in shape but needs to throw to live batters for 2-4 games.

[RickJay]

So from 6 teams winning 13 championships to 10 teams winning 13 championships is a pretty drastic increase in parity. This is compelling evidence that the revenue sharing and salary cap used by the NFL increases the turn over of contenders.
It's not a terribly large data sample.

It's also interesting to note that prior to 1981 (your last year of data) champion turnover was also low - the Steelers winning four times, the Raiders, Dolphins, etc. - but salaries were relatively low, so why would building a winning team be limited to just a few select franchises?

It's possible that other factors go into the current level of "parity." It could be chance; it could also be that the evolution of scouting, training and strategy have made the teams relatively even in those areas, whereas in the 70s there were dramatic differences in organizational quality.

It's interesting to note that ALL major sports have had increased parity in modern times. The Stanley Cup's won my a different team every year now, whereas it's not long ago that the Canadiens won it every year and then the Islanders won four in a row and then the Oilers were beating everyone. Baseball had the 1998-2000 Yankees but other than that it's been all over the place. Basketball has had some minidynasties but not like the Celtics used to be.

I think a lot of this has to do with scouting and organizational ability. Every pro sports team now, well almost every one, is an extremely professional talent rating and acquisition organization that puts millions of dollars into scouting, talent evaluation, development, training, medical care, and the like. That hasn't always been true.

[Ellis Dee]

It's interesting to note that ALL major sports have had increased parity in modern times.All good points, though it's widely accepted that the salary cap increases parity. One thing to note in your favor is that free agency didn't really exist as we know it before free agency, so quality drafting played a much larger role in building a dynasty.

One other contributing factor could also be the expansion of all the leagues. Talent thins as teams increase, hedging everyone toward the middle.

[astorian]

Back to the originlal question: is it fun being a Yankee fan? Sure it is, as long as you like baseball.

But apparently, it's NOT much fun to be a Royals or Reds fan.

The OP's question is pretty silly, if you think about it. It's like saying, "IS it even fun to watch Spiderman 3? Where's the fun in watching a big budget movie with highly paid stars and a top-notch director and superb graphics? Wouldn't it really be more fun to watch a small independent movie by an amateurish director with a cast of starving unknowns?"

The answer is, SURE it's fun to watch "Spiderman 3"! The salaries paid to the stars and the money spent on special effects is irrelevant, provided that the end result is a good movie.

Now, are there big budget movies that suck, and are no fun to watch at all? Sure. But Ed Wood was a small, independent filmmaker, and his movies sucked, too. Being a "crappy little underdog" doesn't give you moral high ground, and it doesn't mean you're talented.

A small independent movie can be fun, and so can a blockbuster. And I don't feel guilty for enjoying a ballgame played by highly paid mercenaries any more than I do for enjoying a movie where the star was paid $20 million.

*

And those of you who idealize the supposed scrappy little underdogs of baseball should stop kidding themselves. Guess what: the WORST player on the worst team in baseball was a stellar jock in school. He was Big Man on Campus, and he's been dreaming of making megabucks in the major leagues since he was 12.

If he's playing for a pittance in Tampa instead of for $15 million a year in New York, it's NOT because he's too virtuous to sell out to Steinbrenner. It's because he just isn't good enough to earn the big bucks he (unknownst to you) craves.

[silenus]

I would think demonic compacts would have a "no fun allowed" clause in them somewhere. I can't think of any other reason someone would root for a team from New York, and an American League team at that. :p

[astorian]

One more thought, inspired by a very old joke.

There are several variations, but the gist of the joke is this: two antelopes are grazing on the plains of Kenya when a ravenous lion starts chasing them. The antelopes run as fast as they can, but the lion is fast and keeps getting closer.

Finally, one antelope says to the other, "What's the use? We'll NEVER be able to outrun this lion."

The other antelope answers, "I don't HAVE to outrun the lion. I just have to outrun YOU!"

*

My point? The Yankees' money gives them a big advantage, and USUALLY guarantees them a spot in the playoffs. But that's all it does. Baseball is not like football, after all. In football, it's shocking when an 8-8 wild card team beats a 14-2 division winner. But in baseball, it's not shocking at all. Over a 162 game season, the best team will invariably put up the best record, but in a short series, it's very close to a tossup. The better team DOESN't always win a 7 game series. If an 81-81 wild card team plays a 102-60 team in a 7 game series, the 81-81 team has a damn good chance of winning. Fact is, EVERY one of the 4 teams that makes it to the post-season has about as good a chance of making the World Series as any other.

So, instead of whining "We can't compete with the Yankees," the Royals should understand that they don't HAVE to compete with the Yankees! They just have to compete with the Tigers, Twins, Indians and WHite Sox. That's eminently do-able. Thos teams don't have huge payroll advantages over the Royals. Kansas City COULD very easily be competitive in that division. And if they squeaked into the playoffs somehow, they'd have an excellent chance of going all the way.

The Tampa Bay Devil Rays are screwed, most years. But if you're a team in the Central or Western Divisions of either league, don't you DARE cry poverty. You're quarantined in divisions where the other teams are just as financially strapped as you are. You CAN compete with them, and if you do, you're in the post-season with a definite chance of going all the way.

Quit bellyaching and make that happen.

[gonzomax]

JUST the Tigers,Twins,Indians and White Sox. Every one of them are better than the Yankees.

[mhendo]

...is it even fun being a Yankees fan at Yankees Stadium (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/10/sports/baseball/10stadium.html), where apparently "showing patriotism" during the playing of God Bless America during seventh inning stretch is being enforced with security personnel and chains? :eek: :confused: :( :dubious: I must say, that's pretty creepy. I've only been to Yankee stadium once, back on 2005 (on July 4, no less!) and i never noticed this sort of enforcement. Then again, i don't think i tried to go anywhere during the playing of the anthem or of God Bless America (Worst. Song. Ever.).

On the other hand, that one experience in the Bronx was rather pleasant, despite the dire warnings i had been given beforehand about rooting against the Yankees. I saw them play the Orioles (my team), and was clapping and cheering for the Birds throughout. No-one said a word to me, not when the Yankees were up 6-0, not when the Orioles came back to take the lead 8-6, and not when the Yankees rallied to win 13-8 (yes it was a long game; 4h 12min for 9 innings).

Also, for a variety of reasons that i've gone into before, i refuse to stand for national anthems and other patriotic songs. I've sometimes had people glare at me, or make snide comments when i remain seated. But no-one at Yankee Stadium gave me even a second glance, as far as i could tell. And this was, as i said, on July 4.

I'm going to New York next week (16-23 May), and am thinking of taking in a Yankees-Red Sox match. I'll keep an eye out for the enforcement described in that NYT article.

[mhendo]

On the subject of the Yankees more generally, i come at this from the perspective of someone who didn't grow up loving or hating the Yankees. When i came to live in the US, i had very few preconceptions about baseball. I had lived in Canada for a couple of years, and i guess i considered myself a nominal Blue Jays supporter. I was living in Vancouver and working in a bar when Joe Carter hit his memorable Series-ending homer. But i never really followed baseball when i lived there; i was too busy following hockey.

So it was only when i came to live in the US that i really started to get into baseball. Living in Baltimore, i had a ready-made team to root for. To the extent i dislike the Yankees, it's a combination of obligation (if you support another AL East team, i think you have to hate the Yankees, by law) and annoyance at their spending practices. Also, i tend to come with a predisposition to root against teams that win a lot, or that everyone else seems to love. I've also cultivated rather intense dislikes for the Lakers, the Notre Dame football team, and Duke basketball. Funnily enough, i don't mind the Patriots.

I've resigned myself to the fact that baseball, and other major sports, are businesses, and that seeking any sort of moral high ground from sorting teams is pointless. Also, while the money might be bigger in America, the fact is that professional sports worldwide have all become more about mercenary transfers than about loyalty to club or city. Big-name players often move around, and clubs with the big names and the big money get them. So i had no trouble adjusting to any of that when i arrived here.

But there is one aspect of baseball transfers and trades that i HATE, that really exemplifies, for me, a level of cynicism and mercenary attitudes that ruins some of my enjoyment of the game. And that is the mid-season flurry of transfers and roster additions, exemplified (in the case of the Yankees) by Bobby Abreu last year.

Basically, what we get before the trade deadline is a bunch of clubs sitting down to evaluate their chances of making a playoff run, followed by a series of trades that sucks good players from bad teams and plonks them down in cities where they have a chance to win a pennant. In return, the crappy clubs get a chance to try again next year. I've heard arguments for this system, and some of them might make some sense, but to me it just feels viscerally wrong. If i ran the league, i'd ban trades after the first month of the season.

Climbs off soapbox.

[astorian]

JUST the Tigers,Twins,Indians and White Sox. Every one of them are better than the Yankees.

If you're right (and you may very well be, this year, anyway), you've proven the point that the Royals have no excuse for crying poverty. All those organizations have managed to put competitive teams on the field without 200 million dollar payrolls.

So why do "small market" teams like the Royals and Pirates deserve any sympathy? Is it really so impossible for the "small market" Pirates to keep up with the Reds, Brewers and Astros? Is it really impossible for the "small market" Royals to compete with the Indians, Twins and Tigers (none of whom has much more money than the Royals)?

[WordMan]

One more thought, inspired by a very old joke.

There are several variations, but the gist of the joke is this: two antelopes are grazing on the plains of Kenya when a ravenous lion starts chasing them. The antelopes run as fast as they can, but the lion is fast and keeps getting closer.

Finally, one antelope says to the other, "What's the use? We'll NEVER be able to outrun this lion."

The other antelope answers, "I don't HAVE to outrun the lion. I just have to outrun YOU!"

*

My point? The Yankees' money gives them a big advantage, and USUALLY guarantees them a spot in the playoffs. But that's all it does. Baseball is not like football, after all. In football, it's shocking when an 8-8 wild card team beats a 14-2 division winner. But in baseball, it's not shocking at all. Over a 162 game season, the best team will invariably put up the best record, but in a short series, it's very close to a tossup. The better team DOESN't always win a 7 game series. If an 81-81 wild card team plays a 102-60 team in a 7 game series, the 81-81 team has a damn good chance of winning. Fact is, EVERY one of the 4 teams that makes it to the post-season has about as good a chance of making the World Series as any other.

So, instead of whining "We can't compete with the Yankees," the Royals should understand that they don't HAVE to compete with the Yankees! They just have to compete with the Tigers, Twins, Indians and WHite Sox. That's eminently do-able. Thos teams don't have huge payroll advantages over the Royals. Kansas City COULD very easily be competitive in that division. And if they squeaked into the playoffs somehow, they'd have an excellent chance of going all the way.

The Tampa Bay Devil Rays are screwed, most years. But if you're a team in the Central or Western Divisions of either league, don't you DARE cry poverty. You're quarantined in divisions where the other teams are just as financially strapped as you are. You CAN compete with them, and if you do, you're in the post-season with a definite chance of going all the way.

Quit bellyaching and make that happen.

Wow - VERY well said.