Is there a tactful way to do this? (re: clingy person)

[norinew]

Some of you may have read about the adventures of my oldest daughter (hereafter referred to as OD). She's a mess, psychologically and physically. She now lives with her 42-year-old loser boyfriend (she's 19), they both live with is father, for heaven's sake! But that's not what this is about.

She's very emotionally needy. She doesn't work. She doesn't have any money. She doesn't have any hobbies (all of these things are results of choices she's made), so she expects other people to be her entertainment. I work part time from home, am active in several neighborhood/civic groups, and have two other children at home. But OD calls here often, sometimes three or four times a day, because she's bored. She also gets pissed at me if I fail to inform her of every tiny thing (like if I went to the ER with another kidney stone; it's not life-threatening, and nothing special, as it probably happens about four times a year. Or if her little sister has a bad cold). If she calls and I tell her I'm too busy to talk, she starts sounding all depressed "Okay", sigh, "I guess I'll call back later", sigh.

I'm not comfortable with the life she's chosen for herself, but dammit, if she chose it, let her get into her life and out of mine!

It's going to reach the breaking point soon, I can feel it. I'd really like to tell her tactfully to back off, before I just lose it and explode at her.

Any suggestions?

[Phlosphr]

Tactfully have a mom/daughter chat with her. We've talked about this before Norine, if you can sit her down in a neutral spot - maybe take her to lunch - it may bode a little better for you. Try talking to her in a way you never have before, maybe like talking to one of your adult friends and not your oldest daughter. Maybe not playing mom would work for her... BTW, has she stabalized at all?

[Indygrrl]

Are other members of the family also concerned about her? I'm thinking that maybe you could do an intervention or something. She is so young, and I can understand why she feels like she still needs her mom. Maybe she knows she's gotten in over her head, but feels like she's powerless to do anything about it.

[Kalhoun]

Is her father in the picture? If so, maybe the two of you could approach her together. She sounds like she needs more family; not less. I realize you've had a rough time with her and you're probably feeling very fed up. But you might consider projecting into the future a couple years...how do you think you'll feel if you don't talk to her at all? An explosive emotional incident might really mess things up more.

I feel for you. It's a very difficult situation. Have you considered counseling for yourself? There might be someone out there that can help you sort it out and cope with this sad state of affairs. Best of luck to you.

[monstro]

Tact doesn't seem like it's going to work with OD. Tact is useful for someone who's relatively sane and in control of herself. Your daughter doesn't fit this criteria.

[OneCentStamp]

I can't offer any specific advice re: the daughter. My oldest child is seven, so most of my serious heart-to-heart talks still end with hugs and ice cream.

However, if you decide you need someone to go over and kick her boyfriend right in the jewels, please accept my humble application for the job. :mad: :p

[norinew]

Tactfully have a mom/daughter chat with her. We've talked about this before Norine, if you can sit her down in a neutral spot - maybe take her to lunch - it may bode a little better for you. Try talking to her in a way you never have before, maybe like talking to one of your adult friends and not your oldest daughter. Maybe not playing mom would work for her... BTW, has she stabalized at all?
I like the idea of taking her to lunch. This might be a good starting point. As for assuming a "friend" stance, well, she bugs her friends just as often as she bugs me. One of her friends comes over and helps out around the house about once a week, was here yesterday, and said OD had called her at least 15 times over the weekend. As for stabilizing, well, her therapist did strong arm her into getting back into GED classes, which is a step in the right direction. It would have been preferable if she had gotten herself into classes, but at least she's there. I'm hoping she'll get her GED and pursue something. She claims to be interested in phlebotomy.

indygrrl, I can understand her still needing her mom, and I don't want to remove myself from her life. But I don't feel like it's right, or appropriate, for her to expect me to be a form of entertainment for her. I have girlfriends that I can call occasionally and talk to for hours. That's fine. But she wants to talk to me for hours every day. I don't feel like this is an appropriate roll for me right now, especially since she doesn't want to hear any criticism of any of her decisions. She keeps talking about her relationship with her bf, like it's the same kind of relationship her father and I have, and I resent that, but don't want to chase her away by grousing at her about it. (Did that make any sense?) It's also not fair to my other kids that she wants to occupy so much of my time.

Kalhoun, yes, I've been considering counseling for myself. I have several issues right now I could use help with. Her father is very much in the picture, but the two of them clash badly, so I don't know if us approaching her together is a good idea.

monstro, you are right that I'm not going to be able to be subtle about this. It's not going to work. OTOH, I really don't want to blow her off completely. I want a relationship with her. But don't think it's appropriate for her to be setting all the boundaries of said relationship.

However, if you decide you need someone to go over and kick her boyfriend right in the jewels, please accept my humble application for the job.
I'm not sure he's got any jewels, but if you can find some, by all means, kick them, cut them off with a rusty dull knife, whatever. I'll pay you. ;)

[ZipperJJ]

This sounds like my cousin and my aunt's relationship.

The only way the calls came to an end was when everyone realized that you have to PAY for cell phone charges and the cell phone people cut them off.

But I don't think this is going to be your solution, sorry :( My cousin just sort of started dealing with her Crazies a little more quietly, but it has taken many years.

[Jodi]

I don't have kids, so take this for what little it might be worth: When I was a young adolescent (not 19, more like 13), I felt like I really needed my mom. I acted out to get her attention and always wanted to be around her (always wanting to talk about myself, of course). I see in retrospect she probably justifiably found me clingy, dramatic, and exasperating. But her pushing me away (her "setting boundaries," I'm sure she would say) hurt me very deeply. It permanently changed the dynamic of our relationship, because I had to learn the hard way not to count on her for emotional support.

I wish she had been able to get some space for herself without putting the blame on me -- I was too needy, I was self-absorbed, I should recognize that she had her own life to live too you know. I think it was especially hurtful to me because at that time of my life I had very low self-esteem and not much of a sense of self-identity. When you're in a deep place, a bad place, to learn that not even your mother thinks you're worthwhile is a terrible blow.

So I would just ask you, on behalf of your daughter, to be careful in how you go about acheiving the separating you are entitled to. A 19 year old doesn't call her mother multiple times a day if things are okay in her life. It sounds to me like she is trying to hold on to or reinforce an important relationship -- the one with her mother -- because maybe the other relationships and things in her life are not very good. If that is the case, I would be very careful about cutting her off from what may be the only positive thing she's got going on right now. That said, it's appropriate to set boundaries so you're not just her source of entertainment and her means to pass the time.

I would suggest that you make a point to spend some one-on-one time with your oldest daughter every couple of weeks or so, like taking her to lunch or going shopping. Or, if she lives close, maybe taking an evening walk together? Then, once you've established a good relationship in a positive way, with regular contact and talks, set boundaries on the excess. If she calls in the morning, tell her, "I have a busy day today, so I'll call you tonight at 6" or "I'll see you tomorrow when we get together." Then don't take her calls for the rest of the day -- but be sure to call her or meet her when you said you would. You are also not required to agree with her insistence that you share every little thing that's going one. Personally, I think anytime you've been taken to the hospital is "a big deal" that merits a mention; your youngest daughter having a cold, not so much.

I can see how the situation would be frustrating, but I ask you to put yourself in her shoes and ask why she would want or need so much contact with you. I'm sure "entertain me!" is part of it, but it's certainly not the whole thing -- the TV is entertainment. It sounds to me more like a need for human contact and support from someone who she knows loves and values her.

So boundaries and distance -- sure. But if you think there's even a chance I may be right in my wild speculations, please don't blow up at her.

[miamouse]

How long ago did she move out? I have to say I haven't been lurking much lately, so I don't know what more there is to this story. But I can understand what you are going through, having been through something similar recently. Did you feel a little (guilty) relief when she moved out? Maybe some of what you're feeling is backlash in the other direction, avoiding her while you mentally heal, and start remembering the great things about her? Contact many times a day isn't allowing that to happen. It just perpetuates and reinforces that she defines drama.

[Quiddity Glomfuster]

I'm late to this story but what about counselling for her?

I agree that 19 isn't necessarily all that mature an age and that she may still be emotionally dependent on you and require support. Perhaps you could go to family counselling together to sort out this dynamic.

[elbows]

I would totally go with avoidance.

Get caller ID or let the machine pick it up, and move on with your life. Answer it if you're in the mood, otherwise - don't.

Adults with busy lives do this all the time. And other adults accept it.

No confrontation, no drama, no heart to heart (seems unlikely to produce any positive result, in my humble opinion), no worry and fret.

Do it, and move on, her drama is now her drama as she is an adult.

[OneCentStamp]

Jodi, what you said was really well put. I have the feeling it will stay with me years from now when my own kids are teenagers, then adults. Thank you.

[norinew]

Jodi, IMHO, you are one of the most calm, rational posters around here. You raise some excellent points.
No, she is most definitely not happy with herself or her life, but I can't fix it for her. She knows what steps she needs to take to improve her life, and has outright admitted that she's unwilling to do the work it would take. Part of her BPD (borderline personality disorder) is a disability/unwillingness to look at things in the long term. She is simply not interested in putting forth any effort today for what it may net her tomorrow. She craves instant gratification.
I think the idea to arrange some one-on-one time with her is an excellent suggestion.

How long ago did she move out? I have to say I haven't been lurking much lately, so I don't know what more there is to this story. But I can understand what you are going through, having been through something similar recently. Did you feel a little (guilty) relief when she moved out?
She moved out two years ago, into a very bad situation (against our advice), found out what a bad situation it was, and moved back in. Moved out into another bad situation (against our advice), moved back in. Moved out to live with her bf, had a big fight with him, moved back in, almost had to get a restraining order against him, as he was stalking her (and by extension, harassing this household). Then went back to him. Last time she left, I told her "that's it; I can see the possibility of this becoming a cycle of fight with Dickhead, come home, make up, go back, lather, rinse, repeat; it's not going to happen".

She is BPD, also bipolar, sometimes suicidal, abuses drugs and alcohol, and did a short stint as a hooker. So there's a little background. And yes, there is some relief involved with her being gone. I don't think much of it is guilty. I've dealt with a lot of the guilt issues involved here.

elbows, I have caller ID. I don't think I employ it often enough to my benefit. IOW, I'll answer the phone sometimes, even when it's really inconvenient for me to talk. I may have to re-think that position. Of course, if I make other plans to spend time with her, I won't feel guilty about that.

[Sapo]

Tactfully have a mom/daughter chat with her. We've talked about this before Norine, if you can sit her down in a neutral spot - maybe take her to lunch - it may bode a little better for you. Try talking to her in a way you never have before, maybe like talking to one of your adult friends and not your oldest daughter. Maybe not playing mom would work for her... BTW, has she stabalized at all?
A variation on this.

Since you seem to have accepted her choices (even if you are not happy with them), forget about trying to change her. If all you want is your privacy respected, make room for some quality time together, on a regular basis.

Plan for lunch for the two of you, once a week, twice, whatever works. Let her know that you won't be available to talk to her on the phone four times a day. She is still welcome to call for special things, of course, just not that regularly. By providing a BETTER time with her, it won't feel like you are getting rid of her.

ETA: or on a better read, what Jodi said.

[OneCentStamp]

I would totally go with avoidance.

Get caller ID or let the machine pick it up, and move on with your life. Answer it if you're in the mood, otherwise - don't.

Adults with busy lives do this all the time. And other adults accept it.

No confrontation, no drama, no heart to heart (seems unlikely to produce any positive result, in my humble opinion), no worry and fret.

Do it, and move on, her drama is now her drama as she is an adult.
Was this serious or just ironic? evil or just unfunny?

[stretch]

I feel for you. My youngest daughter (YD), will be 23 this month and is similiar. As an added bonus she has a young son. We still haven't got a diagnosis on her mental health issues, but she is a very angry person and at the very least she is suffering from depression if not bi-polar. I do not envy you the extra joy of the Borderline diagnosis.

Tact will not work. It just won't. You have to tell her straight out what you are and are not willing to put up with. I'm glad you already drew the line at letting her do the move-in-move-out cycle--we went through that and finally just said NO. The grandbaby always has a place to stay at our house, but YD is not going to be able to come back.

Your daughter is younger than mine, but I fear that like my daughter she is only going to learn by making the mistakes herself. My daughter refuses to learn from others' experiences. I am the poster child for mistakes and her life could be so much better if she would avoid doing the things I did. But does she listen? No.

My daughter also wanted to be a phlebotomist. Right. Good job choice for someone who doesn't like people and is angry much of the time. I told her right away that she should not punish other people just so she can take a short training session and go straight to work. I'm working on convincing her to take accounting--she likes numbers and numbers don't mind if they are yelled at. The local community college is really pushing the phlebotomy course--maybe this is what has happened with your daughter too.

You don't pick your family, but you can pick how you interact with them. YD didn't like getting lectures and I don't like giving them anymore. So I finally told me daughter to quit asking me for help: I have no money for her, no rides to anywhere, no she can't come sit at my house and do laundry, NO, NO, NO! You are an adult now, YD; you made your bed and will have to lie in it.

She still calls me to talk, I still see the grandbaby. She may ask other people to bail her out of her messes but I don't hear about it. Instead I hear about how the potty training is going, how the grandbaby is doing, how YD has a bad cold and didn't sleep, etc. No more, "Mom, my life is going to shit and I need you to help fix it!"

Breaks my heart to know she's being an idiot, but that's her call to make.

Good luck!

[StGermain]

Norine - You say she's all about immediate gratification. That's what you're providing when you talk to her on her schedule. Since you want her to learn to plan for things and wait, starting with a weekly lunch, and maybe one daily phone call (maybe after dinner when the younger kids are settled down) would be good practice for her. Explain that you're not able to take other calls due to time constraints.

StG

[Qadgop the Mercotan]

She is BPD, also bipolar, sometimes suicidal, abuses drugs and alcohol, and did a short stint as a hooker.
Detach with love. Go to Al-Anon. Honestly, elbows' advice wasn't that far off the mark. You need to set very very very very very firm boundaries.

You can't help her but you can help yourself. And it may come to pass that your example of taking care of your own needs will some day help her to do so for herself. Or not.

You have my sympathy.

[norinew]

My daughter also wanted to be a phlebotomist. Right. Good job choice for someone who doesn't like people and is angry much of the time. I told her right away that she should not punish other people just so she can take a short training session and go straight to work. I'm working on convincing her to take accounting--she likes numbers and numbers don't mind if they are yelled at. The local community college is really pushing the phlebotomy course--maybe this is what has happened with your daughter too.
Well, my daughter might be better suited to phlebotomy than yours. OD is depressed sometimes, but not often angry. And she likes people. She just lacks friends because, one, she burns them out too fast with her emotional neediness, and two, a friendship has to be a two-way street, and she's got very little to give back. I think her biggest problem with holding down any kind of a job is that they actually expect you to show up, and work.

You say she's all about immediate gratification. That's what you're providing when you talk to her on her schedule.
By golly, you're right. This is just the level of clear-headedness I hope for when I ask a question here!

QtM, thank you for the words of wisdom. I doubt I could make many Al-Anon meetings around here (there isn't a big variety in their time schedule, and the times they have meetings are not good for me), but I do have a lot of Alateen/Al-Anon/ACOA background in my past (duh. where else would my background be? :smack: ), and I really am going to look into therapy.

[Cat Whisperer]

Really, look into therapy. Your daughter is going down her own path, and you have NO control over that, but you still get the emotional blowback from all her decisions. You need to find the best way to deal with her for both of you (and all your kids still at home who are being affected by her and how she affects you). You want to help her, obviously, but you can't help someone who won't help themselves (which, by the way, is one of the hardest life lessons to learn).

elbows, for what it's worth, I agree with you.

[norinew]

Well, here's my plan:
One, I won't answer the phone when she calls, unless I actually have some time (and patience) to talk.
Two, I'll arrange to spend some one-on-one time with her so she doesn't feel neglected.
Three, I'll find a therapist for myself. I've been wanting to, anyway. This stuff I've been doing with losing weight in the past year, all by itself, has driven me to think I might need therapy. Seriously, even though it's wonderful, losing more than 1/3 of your body mass in under a year can mess with your head! ;)

So, there's my plan. Which would have taken much longer to crystallize without the help of all you good folks.

[stretch]

Well, my daughter might be better suited to phlebotomy than yours.
I should hope to shout*--I think almost anyone would be better suited.

Three, I'll find a therapist for myself.
Excellent choice. I started seeing my therapist because my husband refused to see one and I needed to figure out how to cope with him (he's Bi-Polar type II). She is the one who urged me to draw such distinct lines with my daughter. If the first therapist you see isn't for you, try again--sometimes it takes a while to find the right fit.

*does anyone else say that? Where the hell did I pick that up?

[norinew]

If the first therapist you see isn't for you, try again--sometimes it takes a while to find the right fit.
I had a therapist I really liked, for a couple of years. She was helping me to cope with some residual childhood trauma. Then she left the place I was going to, and sooner than switch therapists, I decided to just stop. I'm not saying that was a mistake, but I need to go back, I think. I know about shopping around, too.

FWIW, my hubby and I both agreed, before we got married, that if either of us ever says "I want to see a marriage counselor", we're both there. Fortunately, our marriage is one of the things that's saved whatever sanity I have.

[Shakes]

Is she welcome to move back home if she wants to?

I may be reading too much into this but that's the first impression I got when I read your OP. It could be that she's just afraid to ask.

And I know that sounds like the complete opposite of what you wanted to hear but perhaps if she lives with you she wont feel the need for a "family" update every five seconds.

[Qadgop the Mercotan]

perhaps if she lives with you she wont feel the need for a "family" update every five seconds.
If she's borderline and bipolar (never mind the chemically dependent part), it's unlikely that a simple move will change that.

[kushiel]

I would totally go with avoidance.

Get caller ID or let the machine pick it up, and move on with your life. Answer it if you're in the mood, otherwise - don't.

Adults with busy lives do this all the time. And other adults accept it.

No confrontation, no drama, no heart to heart (seems unlikely to produce any positive result, in my humble opinion), no worry and fret.

Do it, and move on, her drama is now her drama as she is an adult.

What's with this board and dumping the kids as soon as they reach the magical age of 18? It isn't just here with a troublesome kid, I've seen it in other threads. Honestly, I can't imagine what my life would have been like if I was booted out of the house at 18 with nothing but a 'see ya, I'll probably call you every month, hope to see you at Christmas, I'll send you some money for your birthday maybe'. Knowing me, I'll probably be coming home every weekend for the first month or so after I move out at the age of 20.

[SnakesCatLady]

What's with this board and dumping the kids as soon as they reach the magical age of 18? It isn't just here with a troublesome kid, I've seen it in other threads. Honestly, I can't imagine what my life would have been like if I was booted out of the house at 18 with nothing but a 'see ya, I'll probably call you every month, hope to see you at Christmas, I'll send you some money for your birthday maybe'. Knowing me, I'll probably be coming home every weekend for the first month or so after I move out at the age of 20.

Did you even read the OP? Get a grip. There comes a point where people have to live with the consequences of their decisions and actions. I'm very sure the OP would rather that her daughter had stayed in school and wasn't living with a loser twice her age, but the daughter must live with those decisions.

[StGermain]

Shakes, kushiel - This girl has left home and come back, left home and come back, left home and come back. She's disrupted the lives of her younger siblings, and put a strain on her parents emotionally and financially. She's been offered every kind of help her parents can give, and continues to screw up. Some people are takers. The only way for them to grow up and take responsibilty for their own lives is to disengage from their drama and make them stand on their own. At some point a parent can only do so much, and has to think of what's best for the family unit as a whole, instead of putting all their resources down a bottomless well of need.

StG

[stretch]

What's with this board and dumping the kids as soon as they reach the magical age of 18? It isn't just here with a troublesome kid, I've seen it in other threads. Honestly, I can't imagine what my life would have been like if I was booted out of the house at 18 with nothing but a 'see ya, I'll probably call you every month, hope to see you at Christmas, I'll send you some money for your birthday maybe'. Knowing me, I'll probably be coming home every weekend for the first month or so after I move out at the age of 20.
And what about your parents? When do they get their freedom? You'll come "home" often--but it's not your home anymore once you move out. It belongs to your parents and they may want it to themselves some or most of the time.

As I explained to our three adult children: Don't come over without calling first. And don't just come in using your key. I may very well be having sex on the stairs, in the kitchen, in the backyard, whatever. You are welcome to come "home" to visit, but it will be on my terms because it's my house. If you want to come "home" to live for awhile, welcome to "my house, my rules" all over again.

Don't like it? Stand on your own two feet. That's what you were raised to do. Or at least that is what I raised my kids to do--be productive members of society and take care of themselves when they became adults. The fact that one of my children is not doing this disappoints me.

[norinew]

Is she welcome to move back home if she wants to?

I may be reading too much into this but that's the first impression I got when I read your OP. It could be that she's just afraid to ask.

And I know that sounds like the complete opposite of what you wanted to hear but perhaps if she lives with you she wont feel the need for a "family" update every five seconds.
She is absolutely not welcome to move back home if she wants to. We've tried that. She has no respect for the household rules (she smokes in the house, which is not allowed, won't do chores, actively disrespects us, and thinks nothing of bringing the drama in, right in front of the other kids, one of whom is only 7, and shouldn't have to deal with that). Not to mention that when she was living at home, I was supposed to be available to her, any time, for any reason. But if we were in the middle of a conversation or whatever, and she got a more attractive offer, she thought nothing of dropping me like a hot potato. On top of all of that, her bf proved after the last break-up that he has stalkerish tendencies. I will not subject my younger kids to that. What if he decided the best way to get to OD was to do something to 7-year-old mudgirl?

What's with this board and dumping the kids as soon as they reach the magical age of 18? It isn't just here with a troublesome kid, I've seen it in other threads.
OD was told, in no uncertain terms (from the time she was about 15) that she was free to live at home as long as she wanted, under these conditions:
Respect the rules of the household
Go to school (which we were willing to pay for, and did for a while, but that's a whole 'nother post) or work full-time and pay some room and board.
We've told the same thing to 16-year-old EtherealFreakOfPinkness (gosh I wish that kid would get a shorter username!). So you see, we did not "dump the kid as soon as she turned 18". We put the ball in her court, and she chose to chuck said ball into the nearest dumpster. Not only that, but we've given her more than ample chance for a 'try-again'.

In addition to this, allowing her to move in and out at will is not only bad for me, her father, and her sisters, it's bad for her. I don't know how much experience you have with drug/alcohol abusers and/or BPD, but enabling her is not doing her any favors in the long term! She has not yet learned this most valuable of lessons "Actions have consequences", and she cannot live in an adult world until she does.

[Cat Whisperer]

I think what we're talking about here is age-appropriate parenting. norinew's oldest daughter is not 9, she's 19. At 19, you can reasonably expect your child to be finished high school, working at at least a part-time job and/or going to college, possibly living on their own, having friends and boyfriends, and developing an adult relationship (that is, a relationship that is more one of equals, rather than dependence) with their parents.

OD has major issues that are getting in the way of her developing and detaching normally, and norinew is obviously aware of that and making any healthy accommodations she can for those, but continuing to treat OD like a child isn't going to do anyone any good. I think therapy for norinew is the way to go, because these are some serious problems to deal with. I think ideally OD should be in therapy, too, but she's old enough to make her own (bad) decisions.

[norinew]

I think ideally OD should be in therapy, too, but she's old enough to make her own (bad) decisions.
Oh, believe me, she makes plenty of bad decisions! ;) But she is in therapy. I don't know how helpful it is for her, as she's admitted flat-out that she can't be bothered to do the work that recovery requires, and I'm pretty sure her therapist doesn't have a magic wand. . .but yes, she's in therapy. And she sees a psychiatrist monthly to check and adjust her meds. Of course, she's going to be in trouble if her insurance runs out next month when she turns 20 (and I think that's when it runs out), but she cannot be bothered to call the Health Dept. and find out. :rolleyes:

[Cat Whisperer]

Oh, she's in THAT kind of therapy, the kind where she ignores all the good advice and keeps doing exactly what she pleases. You know, 19 year olds are notorious for not caring too much about consequences, but I recall growing out of that around 25 or so. Here's hoping! (fingers crossed smiley)