"Acting white" damage control

[pizzabrat]

It seems finally official that the mainstream media (and mainstream American) line is that black American youth insult each other for being academically successful by saying they're "acting white". Thus, I'll do my part to add a voice of dissension to misinterpretation.

"White", in this usage, doesn't mean academically successful - it means dorky. Now dorkiness can obviously overlap with academic success (which is why this confusion arose) - eagerness to raise one's hand every time the teacher asks a question or eschewing transient slang in favor of a practical, lifetime vocabulary are both dorky but will help your grades. But they're still not synonymous, and a person can get straight A's without being attracting a "dork" or "white" label.

This explanation is not an endorsement of the term. It's clearly racist in a straightforward way. And the idea that being cool is a key component of a black identity is often destructive. But it's needlessly insulting (and embarrassingly self-congratulatory on the part of whites who are quick to believe that incorrect interpretation) to imply that blacks are uniquely anti-intellectual to the extent of having our own put-down specifically for people who do well academically.

[Nutty Bunny]

In that case, why even use the phrase "acting white" at all, when "dorky" will suffice?

[Wee Bairn]

I thought making straight A's would get you made fun of in certain black circles, regardless of the manner it was achieved. Chris Rock has a bit on this.

[Phlosphr]

How widespread is this? Do we have a cite? I'm not doubting your assumptions, I just woudn't mind looking at some literature on the subject.

I oft wondered of the minority youths who this applies to, do some of them feel the ignorance in the sentiments and rebel of their own accord? or are they ridiculed even more?

[pizzabrat]

In that case, why even use the phrase "acting white" at all, when "dorky" will suffice?Because white people use "dorky", and that would be acting white (a slightly different, more direct usage). Seriously, though, why use "asshole" when "jerk" would suffice?

[catsix]

Because 'dorky' is not racist, but 'acting white' is.

[EddyTeddyFreddy]

Have you ever seen that old PBS show called "American Tongues" (http://www.pbs.org/pov/filmarchive.php?filmids=2)? It's about the wonderful regional variety of American English -- pronunciation, idioms, words peculiar to certain areas (the segment of earnestly puzzled Midwesterners trying to suss out the meaning of "schlepp" is hilarious) and so forth. One part looked at the incredible variations encompassed just in the various neighborhoods of Boston.

Yes, this does apply to your topic, dammit -- stop tapping your foot! ;) It's the explanatory lead-in to my recollection of one segment, talking with a trio of black teenage girls in Roxbury. They were cheerfully discussing how they talk and teasing the hell out of one of them, who spoke "better" (less locally accented, more conventional) English, as "schoolgirl". From the way the appellation was used it was clear this was not a complimentary term.

This documentary was produced in 1988. So this attitude, it seems to me, is not really a new invention of the (white) media.

[Marley23]

"Dorky" is dorky-sounding anyway.

[pizzabrat]

How widespread is this? Do we have a cite?Well my point was that the academics seem to get this wrong, but a quick search found this paper, in which students themselves are told to describe what "acting white" is. You'll see it's not a short list describing academic success. It's a PDF (http://www.springerlink.com/content/jx1tneab3j7f82td/fulltext.pdf), and the part I'm referencing starts on page 6 under "Results & Discussion".

[Biggirl]

From personal experiences-- both mine and my children-- it wasn't the good grades that got us called "oreo" and accused of "acting white", nor was it any dorkiness-- it was the way we spoke. Which is funny, because white people think I talk like a black person (except when I'm on the phone at work. Then I use my "phone voice". It is much more businesslike-- which also equals "white").


I remember vividly my stepmother and her sisters teasing my son mercilessly and until he was in tears when he was 10-- calling him "Poindexter" and "Prince Justin" because he casually used the word "invariably".

Yeah, I got all niggerish on them over that.

[tomndebb]

"White", in this usage, doesn't mean academically successful - it means dorky. Now dorkiness can obviously overlap with academic success (which is why this confusion arose) - eagerness to raise one's hand every time the teacher asks a question or eschewing transient slang in favor of a practical, lifetime vocabulary are both dorky but will help your grades. But they're still not synonymous, and a person can get straight A's without being attracting a "dork" or "white" label.It would be interesting if you could provide actual evidence of tis claim. (I know: it's a rant, not a debate.) Given that the phrase was coined by a black researcher studying unbalanced grades among kids in a school system where the economic and social levels of blacks and whites are the same, but black kids were doing substantially worse in grades, I am not sure that you are correct.

The phrase "acting white" was not something that was pulled out of the air by some white reporter with a tin ear; it came to the attention of the mainstream media when it was offered by black kids as a reason why their school grades were lower than their white classmates' when their environment was the same. (See the numerous stories on the disparities in Shaker Heights as studied by John Ogbu (http://www.shaker.org/news/releases/1998/1998.10.23.htm).)
Now, Ogbu may have gotten it wrong, but he was not setting out to disparage black kids.

This is not to say that some whites are not overly willing to seize on the phrase as an example of what is "wrong" with black youth or black culture. I suspect that the issue is a lot more complex. However, a claim that "acting white" is only an attack on dorkiness and plays no part in black kids avoiding academic excellence is a cop out that is not supported by evidence.

Far more likely is that it is a matter of frame of reference. I suspect that kids in mostly black schools do use the phrase to mean simply dorky. However, kids in mixed schools appear to use it in the manner against which you are complaining. Fryer's study (noted below) seems to indicate that it is not an issue in either predominantly black (or Hispanic) schools or in private schools (where, one presumes, every kid is bustinmg his (or her) butt to get ahead). However, the phrase was coined and publicized first in a school that met neither of those conditions.

I would agree that any generalization that foolishly claims that no black kid wants to do well for fear of "acting white" is wrong. Trying to spin the meaning of the phrase for all cases without taking the time to identify who is using it in what context also appears to be wrong.

Roland G. Fryer's study on "Acting White" (http://www.hoover.org/publications/ednext/3212736.html) (Published by the Hoover, but conducted through Harvard--the Harvard version is a .pdf.)

[pizzabrat]

From personal experiences-- both mine and my children-- it wasn't the good grades that got us called "oreo" and accused of "acting white", nor was it any dorkiness-- it was the way we spoke..The way someone speaks is a part dorkiness. There's a cool way of speaking (an affected bassiness with a barking cadence and heavy, up-to-the-second slang, frex), and an uncool way (a nasal intonation with relatively precise enunciation and a moderate pace, perhaps).

[Vinyl Turnip]

I've never heard that definition either, pizzabrat, although to be fair I've never heard any black person use the expression "acting white." Only heard it through the media, and I've always had lingering doubts about how widespread it really was.

I defer to your personal knowledge on the topic, but to an outsider the description that Biggirl provides seems to make more sense. Simply "acting dorky" seems a bit general a concept to become associated with "acting white." Unless there are specific "dorky" behaviors you're referring to that I'm missing.

[Wee Bairn]

I would agree that acting dorky and getting good grades would make one the subject of teasing, but I believe that getting good grades while acting cool would still get you teased- less because you act cool, but teased nonetheless.

[Hippy Hollow]

The Ogbu hypothesis - "acting White" as a choice that academically successful students must make in order to be academically successful - is not only old (his work was in the 1980s and 1990s) but it has been debunked by Theresa Perry, Asa Hilliard, and a slew of sociologists and educational researchers. Most of the current research notes that "acting White" is only one strategy of adapting to an academically rigorous environment, and not a preferred one at that - but Black students tend to resist, and find ways of maintaining social relationships and peer acceptance while simultaneously striving for academic excellence.

There's an emerging body of literature on high-achieving Black students that describes these students as successful and popular as well as smart. Intelligence and academic achievement have long traditions of respect in the Black American community - historian James Anderson notes that the first social, political, and economic investments that freed slaves made were in the founding of schools.

And of course, I can reflect on my years in the classroom. What was the one thing that once said would start a fight in my school, a 99% African American, 100% free lunch school? It wasn't insults about someone's family, or cracks about the clothes students wore. It was calling another student "stupid." Kids would actually insult each other by bringing up low grades. That's part of the reason it was so hard to get students to read aloud - the struggling readers were afraid of being insulted if their peers heard them reading poorly.

[Nutty Bunny]

Because 'dorky' is not racist, but 'acting white' is.

Exactly. There's a huge difference between dorky vs. white and jerk vs. asshole.

If black people are bothered by this insult (as they should be), then why do they use it on each other? I don't understand what's wrong with wanting to better oneself, nor do I get how that is considered "white". Aren't they just perpetuating a stereotype against their own people?

[pizzabrat]

It would be interesting if you could provide actual evidence of tis claim. (I know: it's a rant, not a debate.) Given that the phrase was coined by a black researcher studying unbalanced grades among kids in a school system where the economic and social levels of blacks and whites are the same, but black kids were doing substantially worse in grades, I am not sure that you are correct. Black researcher? You mean Ogbu (reads rest of the post. Yes you do.)? Why point out that he's black? His being dark-skinned is meaningless - he's an immigrant and thus more of a stranger to his subjects than even a white American would be.

However, a claim that "acting white" is only an attack on dorkiness and plays no part in black kids avoiding academic excellence is a cop out that is not supported by evidence.And that was not my point at all. I made it clear that my point was simply that "acting white" is not synonymous with "being academically successful"

[Biggirl]

The way someone speaks is a part dorkiness. There's a cool way of speaking (an affected bassiness with a barking cadence and heavy, up-to-the-second slang, frex), and an uncool way (a nasal intonation with relatively precise enunciation and a moderate pace, perhaps).

But it was not my son's tonal dorkiness that earned him scorn from his own family, it was his word choice. As it was not my non-bassiness that got me called an oreo, but the fact that I didn't say things like "I was sover" when I meant "I was sober" or "Where you at?" when I meant "Where are you?"

[Vinyl Turnip]

I didn't say things like "I was sover" when I meant "I was sober" or "Where you at?"

<pointless hijack>There was really no chance I'd ever use "Boost Mobile" anyway, but whatever minuscule chance existed was annihilated by their commericials that not only use that latter phase as their slogan, but repeat it again and again. Grrr!</pointless hijack>

[ParentalAdvisory]

It's a Wiki too (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acting_white)

[Hippy Hollow]

But it was not my son's tonal dorkiness that earned him scorn from his own family, it was his word choice. As it was not my non-bassiness that got me called an oreo, but the fact that I didn't say things like "I was sover" when I meant "I was sober" or "Where you at?" when I meant "Where are you?"
I think this might be more of an issue of knowing one's audience and code-switching, which links back to Du Bois' observation of the duality of Africans in America. When I first came to the States at the age of 14, I was pretty much shunned by the majority of my Black peers. I didn't talk like them or dress like them. As I went through high school, I learned vernacular, how to adopt a "cool pose," got into hip hop, played sports, and so on. Was I ever "the downest" brother in high school? No. But did I have respect among my Black peers and very close friendships with many of the Black kids in school? Yep.

College was almost completely the opposite. I really had two identities, probably because I was so adept at code-switching by this time. The leadership group and my honors program peers that I interacted with saw one aspect of me, while my friends in the dorm saw another. Neither was inauthentic, just different sides of the same person. Towards the end of my college years, I reconciled the two, to now where today I feel if you meet Hippy Hollow, you meet me in all of my identity. My experience parallels closely what racial identity theorists like William Cross and Janet Helm have described for African American youth.

Not knowing you IRL, Biggirl, I don't know if that might explain the experience you've had in some situations. Don't get me wrong - there are some ignorant mofos out there, Black or otherwise, but my experience has shown me that their is an emphasis on sounding a lot like your peers in those settings among Black youth. As my mom is a West Indian immigrant and I grew up in the UK, I wasn't going to sound like that right off the bat. But once I learned it, I had much greater success reconciling the two identities - high achieving student and HH from 'round the way.

[pizzabrat]

But it was not my son's tonal dorkiness that earned him scorn from his own family, it was his word choice. As it was not my non-bassiness that got me called an oreo, but the fact that I didn't say things like "I was sover" when I meant "I was sober" or "Where you at?" when I meant "Where are you?"
Okay - I was just giving examples. You're talking about a different usage anyway - you know, like "bitch" has different usages (it can mean either an aggressive woman or a weak, submissive man). A more direct usage.

[monstro]

From personal experiences-- both mine and my children-- it wasn't the good grades that got us called "oreo" and accused of "acting white", nor was it any dorkiness-- it was the way we spoke. Which is funny, because white people think I talk like a black person (except when I'm on the phone at work. Then I use my "phone voice". It is much more businesslike-- which also equals "white").

This mirrors my own experience. I was always teased for speaking "proper", not for getting good grades. Actually, my intelligence was something even my tormentors couldn't deny, and on those rare occassions when they were feeling complimentary, they would say "monstro, you sure are smart."

The most popular black kids at my high school (60% black enrollment) were not the dumbest ones. They were the smartest ones. BUT...they were also the most vocal, take-charge students. They were captains on sports teams and they ran for student council. Most importantly, they had both black and white friends. The kids who got labeled "acting white" were usually the kids who did not have black friends AND did not use AAVE. The same goes for college. Black students who only hung around white students weren't considered "down". Grades didn't have anything to do with it.


About the phone voice thing, I use it too. I've been communicating with the property manager of an apartment I'm moving into in Richmond, VA. He's only heard my voice on the phone. I'm hoping there's no surprises when I stroll up into the office, 'cuz I will call the NAACP and Jesse and Al. And my mama.

[Biggirl]

I agree very much with Hippy. The way I used language seemed off to my peers-- alien or 'white'. Probably because I was raised by my Puerto Rican grandmother, whose English was very thickly accented but not AAV.

Oh, and I was a cool kid, believe it or not. I fit in fine and was one of those people who was a friend to everyone. It was just that everybody had to have something to goof on and with me it was the way I spoke.


But when my own family turned on my son (and they were rather vicious about it, too) I was surprised. Believe me, they all got a piece of my mind about diminished expectations or--- how did december put it?-- the soft bigotry of lowered expectations. Only I didn't use those words. It sounded more like, "Just because you want to spend your life sounding like ignorant assholes, doesn't mean you can bring my kid down with you. If you really want to play this stupid game: You think he's sounds like a "Poindexter"? Well, I think you sound like Welfare Queens."


It really annoys me when black people think that in order to "be black" you have to talk like an idiot.


Yeah, there was big fun at Biggirl's daddy's house that day.

[whole bean]

I don't know if I totally buy this as a purely racial issue despite the fact that the terminology employed is racial. As, as white kid going to an economically depressed public school in the deep south, I was mocked by other cool* white kids for excelling academically. "Not caring" was part of the ethos of "cool," and someone who did well clearly "cared." I can also say that when I transitioned into a prep school, success was expected. Everyone came from economically stable homes (as the child of two professors [squarely middle class], I was clearly the "poorest" kid at this school), and everyone went to top tier colleges. I think there is a universiality to teenage expereince of the economically disenfranchised, not quite sour grapes, but close. I should also point out, and with due respect, the OP is no better position to speak on behalf of America's black youth than any other person who was once a black youth in America. This touches on what I perceive to be another problem with dealing with issues of race in the US. I do not believe there is a singular black American identity, at least not any longer. Telling us what all US black youths mean when they use an idiom is the sort of lumping that leads to stereotyping. By avoiding nuance, we don't even begin to address the probelm.

Edited to add: well maybe there is a cultural, quasi-racial difference as the expereince of black posters seems to be the opposite of mine.

*kids who smoked, drank and had sex in midle school

[Hippy Hollow]

I agree very much with Hippy. The way I used language seemed off to my peers-- alien or 'white'. Probably because I was raised by my Puerto Rican grandmother, whose English was very thickly accented but not AAV.

Oh, and I was a cool kid, believe it or not. I fit in fine and was one of those people who was a friend to everyone. It was just that everybody had to have something to goof on and with me it was the way I spoke.


But when my own family turned on my son (and they were rather vicious about it, too) I was surprised. Believe me, they all got a piece of my mind about diminished expectations or--- how did december put it?-- the soft bigotry of lowered expectations. Only I didn't use those words. It sounded more like, "Just because you want to spend your life sounding like ignorant assholes, doesn't mean you can bring my kid down with you. If you really want to play this stupid game: You think he's sounds like a "Poindexter"? Well, I think you sound like Welfare Queens."


It really annoys me when black people think that in order to "be black" you have to talk like an idiot.


Yeah, there was big fun at Biggirl's daddy's house that day.
But isn't there a middle ground there? When I'm speaking at a predominantly White group, such as an academic conference, I sound very different if I'm talking at a Black Student Association meeting. The people in the room have the same education, more or less. But to use the phrase that so many Black ministers use, there's a real need to "make it plain" when talking to Black folks.

I would argue that African Americans have used this to our advantage over the years, and it's highly unlikely that the streets and the 'hood will embrace the use of business-school English. So why not both? Reading one's audience is a vital part of communication, and I feel it's part of our heritage. Just know when to switch! I love the vibrancy of AAVE, and I certainly can't keep up with all of the new words, but I love that I can walk into a Black neighborhood in Georgia, Texas, Massachusetts, or California, and be able to break the ice fairly quickly. And I don't think code-switching is hard to master.

whole bean, I think the general things that I've observed are universals across race. Among the cool kids I've known in school, it's fine to care about grades. It's not fine to whine in class about them or appear to care too much. (Once in grad school a woman in my class had a meltdown because the prof canceled an assignment, which denied her the opportunity to be evaluated on what she knew. Those were her exact words, seriously! :eek:

Every student in that class, regardless of ethnicity, thought she was an incredible ass and a huge dork. If it meant that much to you, why not talk to the prof in office hours, instead of announcing to the world your dorkiness?

[pizzabrat]

Yeech - you call it "reading one's audience", I call it talking down to people.

[you with the face]

I agree with pizzabrat. In my experiences, "acting white" has been used in the exact same way that "nerd" and "geek" have been used. Which is why I'm always a bit :dubious: when I see a white person ragging on blacks for supposedly being so super duper anti-intellectual. The same behavior is seen in other groups, just with different terminology.

Just as you can be an average student and still be labeled a geek based on your interests (Star Trek trivia, D &D , etc), style of dress, and your lack of social sophistication, you can be accused of "acting white" by behaving in a way that other blacks deem uncool and not stereotypically black. That means speaking in a nasally tone of voice, using slang that is associated with white folks but not blacks, walking in a stiff manner, wearing docksiders and khakis, using formal vocabulary in casual situations (which is why I suspect Biggirl's son might have been teased), etc.

I can't remember ever being accused of "acting white", and I never was one to conform to anyone's idea of being black. My voice has been pretty much "raceless", as has been my style of dress. Interestingly enough, the ghetto kids that rode my school bus did call me a nerd, though. What made them use "nerd" in lieu of "acting white" I will probably never know.

Related sidenote: when my white ex-boyfriend imitates me, he always makes my voice sound nasally the same way black comedians do when imitating whites. He's always calling me a nerd (playfully, of course).

[DiosaBellissima]

Well, I'm certainly not black, so take my anecdote with a grain of salt.

I went to a predominantly black and hispanic high school- I was, in fact ,the token white girl. Naturally, the vast majority of my friends were either (surprising, I know) black and hispanic. I also happened to be in an Honors engineering academy, so I ran with the "smart" kids.

My friends would regularly be made fun of by their non-Honors friends. My hispanic friends were regularly called coconuts (dark on the outside, white on the inside), while the black friends would be told they were acting stuck up and white.

Most of my friends were intelligent enough to see through the ignorance being thrown their way, but I can't imagine it was easy for them. I remember one once telling me she was genuinely bothered by the fact that she was expected to choose between being black and being intelligent. Then she went on to explain that it was that attitude that was keeping people in bad stations in life, etc. etc. Can't say she was wrong.

[Hippy Hollow]

Yeech - you call it "reading one's audience", I call it talking down to people.
Only if you feel that one form of communication is superior to another, and if the conversational style is one you don't feel comfortable with, or know very well. Context matters.

To me it's a familiarity issue. And I don't think I necessarily use different words, but I use a different tone. Eye contact and engaging the person I'm speaking with, with "you know what I mean?" and "you know what I'm saying?"

If I'm back in my neighborhood and someone started talking to me the way I talk at an academic conference, I'd think that person was crazy. Not just vocabulary, but body language and pacing... you know, like a nerd. ;) YMMV.

[Biggirl]

Sure, I can and do code switch with the best of them. Well, not with the best of them because I still can't bring myself to say "Where you at?" non-ironically.

There may be something to the smart thing. When my daughter was in 5th grade, her grades dropped sharply. When the citywide reading test showed her reading level fell from 4 grades above her grade level to 2 grades below, her teacher called me in. She was going to be removed from her accelerated class because of this.

We had a talk. She was being teased at school. Other children were calling her Professor Whitey or somesuch. She was getting the oreo treatment so she tried to play dumb. I asked her if the teasing had stopped once she started tanking in class. Nope. I asked her if she really believed black people have to talk a certain way in order to be black? Nope.

The tanking stopped. And, once she stopped being ashamed of being smart and black, most of the teasing stopped too.


You know what? Now that I've written that, I think that is still an example of the ribbing being because of the way she spoke and not how smart she was since the teasing did not stop when her grades fell.

[Hippy Hollow]

Other children were calling her Professor Whitey or somesuch. She was getting the oreo treatment so she tried to play dumb. I asked her if the teasing had stopped once she started tanking in class. Nope. I asked her if she really believed black people have to talk a certain way in order to be black? Nope.

The tanking stopped. And, once she stopped being ashamed of being smart and black, most of the teasing stopped too.


You know what? Now that I've written that, I think that is still an example of the ribbing being because of the way she spoke and not how smart she was since the teasing did not stop when her grades fell.
I also think that it's the dozens. Kids, especially Black kids, go at each other like this. If you show that it bothers you, the kids have something to dig into every single time. I remember that one kid wanted to call me Snoopy because I supposedly had a big nose. (I don't. Kids just say stupid shit to get under your skin, just like the kid who called Biggirl's daughter "Professor Whitey" probably had little to do with her actually emulating the behaviors of a White professor.) So I came at him and said something like, "Funny you're talking about my nose, yours is twice as big as mine, Marmaduke!" (Marmaduke was kind of well known in the 80s.) Of course the group busted up and started calling him Marmaduke. (The kid actually gave me props for being smart a few years later in a science class.)

I hope your daughter latched on to the backhanded compliment (being called Professor) and gave those kids some fire back.

[Beadalin]

I've never heard the term code-switching before, but it totally fits something I observed happening with my Little Sister (Big Brothers/Big Sisters). I'm white, she's black. She was 11 when we were first matched, and a willing student in a pretty chaotic school and home environment. When speaking, she didn't use much slang at all, enunciated clearly and all her non-verbal communication showed her to be an outgoing, bubbly and open person.

When she hit 6th grade, she started getting shit every day about "acting white" -- in part because she's mixed race (black/hispanic, but identifies black) -- but mostly over how she talked and how she carried herself. Pretty soon she was getting into physical fights regularly, with all the attendant suspensions, etc. I remember feeling helpless and irrelevant to everything she was going through; I couldn't relate to it and couldn't advise her on what to do.

She worked through it. And I think how she adapted was becoming adept at code-switching. If I picked her up from home and it was just us going out, she'd speak the way she did when we first met. If I picked her up from school or we took her friends somewhere, she'd speak a mile a minute with heavy slang and her posture would radiate that sublime mix of "don't fuck with me / I don't care." I remember there was one time where we cracked up because she'd said something and I responded, "Oh my God, I am so white. I have no idea what you just said." (We talked a lot about what it meant to be white and black.) To me it was especially interesting to listen to her speech shift gradually if she was spending time with me alone, and how lightning quick it would snap to her other mode when we came around her peers.

Anyway, ultimately she stopped getting in fights all the time and the brutal teasing stopped. Part of that was her natural self-confidence returning, and part of it was that she learned the social cues of how to behave around her peers vs. others. She'll be 18 in July.

[you with the face]

Only if you feel that one form of communication is superior to another, and if the conversational style is one you don't feel comfortable with, or know very well. Context matters.

Exactly.

I think it's easy to mistake "acting white" as a direct slam against intelligence if you think that only intelligent people sound stereotypically white. "Sounding black" is often equated with sounding dumb and uneducated, even when grammar and syntax is technically proper. Al Sharpton and Bryant Gumble could be saying the exact same thing, but Gumble's recitation will probably be perceived as superior, because he lacks a blaccent.

[velvetjones]

I don't think it's just blacks that "code switch" and change the way they speak to suit their audience.

My husband is from Long Island and lived and worked in NYC for most of his adult life. When conducting business here in FL he speaks very plainly and with almost no trace of his Long Island accent but get him on the phone with his cousins, his kids or his parents and you'd almost not believe it's the same person. Not just the accent but the inflection and the phrasing....it all changes.

I think anyone with a cultural identity does this to some extent if that cultural identity is not the mainstream.

Me? I'm a middle class white woman who was born in the midwest. I've got no cultural identity to switch to.

[monstro]

whole bean, I think the general things that I've observed are universals across race. Among the cool kids I've known in school, it's fine to care about grades. It's not fine to whine in class about them or appear to care too much. (Once in grad school a woman in my class had a meltdown because the prof canceled an assignment, which denied her the opportunity to be evaluated on what she knew. Those were her exact words, seriously! :eek:

This reminds me of the time a girl in my orchestra had a meltdown during juries. She was playing a complicated violin concerto by memory and lost her place. Ole girl flung herself on the ground, curled up into a fetal position, and let out an animal howl. Then, when people came to her assistance, she shouted out at them and scurried to a corner, where she commenced to rocking back and forth for the rest of the hour.

White kids were more likely to wig out like this than the black kids. Even the best players among us were still "cool" about it.

By the way, Farnsworth Bentley (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farnsworth_Bentley) was in my high school orchestra. He was the concert master while I was a lowly freshman (but we were in the same section...and sometimes he even noticed me!) All the girls--black, white, crazy, or cool--had a giant crush on him. We all thought he was "foine". Funny how I think he's more cute than fine now.


[/QUOTE]

[Hippy Hollow]

I don't think it's just blacks that "code switch" and change the way they speak to suit their audience.

My husband is from Long Island and lived and worked in NYC for most of his adult life. When conducting business here in FL he speaks very plainly and with almost no trace of his Long Island accent but get him on the phone with his cousins, his kids or his parents and you'd almost not believe it's the same person. Not just the accent but the inflection and the phrasing....it all changes.

I think anyone with a cultural identity does this to some extent if that cultural identity is not the mainstream.

Me? I'm a middle class white woman who was born in the midwest. I've got no cultural identity to switch to.
You're right; code-switching is not a race-specific behavior and actually quite common. I do think that a lot of people commenting on African-Americans feel that the vernacular should be wiped out and suppressed, though. Similar to Latinos and the "English Only" crap-legislation that spread across the country over the past decade... but that's worse, I think.

As long as you give props to W. E. B. Du Bois for theorizing about dual natures, I'm quite happy. ;)

monstro, are you for real? Wow, that's ignorant. That really is losing one's cool pose. Sad that she had that much pressure. And thanks for nothing for referencing that Fonzworth dude... I went to his web page and was aurally assaulted with his attempt to rap/sing. :p

"Since I was nine..."

[whole bean]

This reminds me of the time a girl in my orchestra had a meltdown during juries. She was playing a complicated violin concerto by memory and lost her place. Ole girl flung herself on the ground, curled up into a fetal position, and let out an animal howl. Then, when people came to her assistance, she shouted out at them and scurried to a corner, where she commenced to rocking back and forth for the rest of the hour.

White kids were more likely to wig out like this than the black kids. Even the best players among us were still "cool" about it.

By the way, Farnsworth Bentley (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farnsworth_Bentley) was in my high school orchestra. He was the concert master while I was a lowly freshman (but we were in the same section...and sometimes he even noticed me!) All the girls--black, white, crazy, or cool--had a giant crush on him. We all thought he was "foine". Funny how I think he's more cute than fine now.



North Atlanta High, [checks location]. Weird. Anyway, I wasn't talking about orchestra or grad school, I was talking about 6th grade. If you're in orchestra or grad school you've presumably progressed past any self-conciousness associatd with bucking the "coolness" of caring given that you've sacrificed to get there (i.e. you don't have to be in orchestra or grad school and there are opportunity costs associated with each). Also, I don't think we're talking about the difference between Al Sharpton and Bryant Gumble. We're talking about:

'yeah man, you know how we do it, now, you know just, uh, yeah, uh, that's how we roll dog, you know, dirty souf, man, you know what I mean'

I pretty sure Reverend Al doesn't say "durrin" for doing, "chirrens" for children, "ficcuna" for fixing to, "skreet" for street.

FWIW, there is a definite poor (or poorly educated) southern white "vernacular" full of "sho nuff" "I ain't bullshittin neither" and "I been knowing him" "I's fixin to ast you sumpin"

I still think there is a larger economic component to this.

[whole bean]

Yeech - you call it "reading one's audience", I call it talking down to people.
I agree

[whole bean]

whole bean, I think the general things that I've observed are universals across race. Among the cool kids I've known in school, it's fine to care about grades. It's not fine to whine in class about them or appear to care too much. (Once in grad school a woman in my class had a meltdown because the prof canceled an assignment, which denied her the opportunity to be evaluated on what she knew. Those were her exact words, seriously! :eek:


Grad school, sure. I am telling you that at an economically depressed public middle school in lower Alabama in the mid 1980s, it was not cool to do well in school. It was "cool" to skip class, smoke pot, have sex and steal bikes.

[lowbrass]

I thought making straight A's would get you made fun of in certain black circles, regardless of the manner it was achieved. Chris Rock has a bit on this.
Aren't black circles what you get under your eyes when you're really tired?

[pizzabrat]

I should also point out, and with due respect, the OP is no better position to speak on behalf of America's black youth than any other person who was once a black youth in America. This touches on what I perceive to be another problem with dealing with issues of race in the US. I do not believe there is a singular black American identity, at least not any longer. Telling us what all US black youths mean when they use an idiom is the sort of lumping that leads to stereotyping. By avoiding nuance, we don't even begin to address the probelm.I don't think clearing up the usage of a particular popular slang term is as dramatic as speaking for an entire race and assuming a universal identity. Would you be speaking for the entire white race if you cleared up to a bunch of black people that "stoked" doesn't necessarily mean "high on marijuana"? Or would it be reasonable for you to be confident that that term was pretty much used the same way nationally?

[you with the face]

I pretty sure Reverend Al doesn't say "durrin" for doing, "chirrens" for children, "ficcuna" for fixing to, "skreet" for street.

No he doesn't. But I can't ever imagine anyone accusing him of "acting white" because he doesn't say skreet, either. Plenty of people "sound black" without using street slang and ebonics, and he's one of them.

Bryant Gumble, in contrast, is called an oreo because he speaks like a stereotypical white guy. He has that whole nasal thing going on that is often seized upon by comedians.

My point is that neither guy strikes me as more intelligent than the other, but Gumble is much more likely to be accused of "acting white" than Sharpton is. Coincidentally (or not), the public is also probably more apt to see Gumble as more intelligent because he sounds stereotypically white. Hence, the "acting white" insult is assumed to be about intelligence when its not.

[OtakuLoki]

Yeech - you call it "reading one's audience", I call it talking down to people.


Then some of us are fucked. Unless I think about it my normal discourse tends towards precise and formal. I don't intend it to be a means of displaying my education, nor to intimidate people. But I've been told, time and time again, that it is percieved that way.

Once people get to know me, I can relax back to my normal discourse, and they seem to accept that I don't mean anything confrontational about it. Until that point is reached, however, it's usually more effective, and more positive for me, to simply try to shift my normal speech patterns.

I'm not talking about trying to affect some kind of persona that I don't have - I never try to use 'cool' or 'hip' because I know it's not a voice I can use. I'd be putting on a set of someone else's clothes, and everyone would see how poorly it fits.

But that doesn't mean, to me, that adjusting one's speech for one's audience is necessarily talking down to people. It simply seems good manners.

[whole bean]

I don't think clearing up the usage of a particular popular slang term is as dramatic as speaking for an entire race and assuming a universal identity. Would you be speaking for the entire white race if you cleared up to a bunch of black people that "stoked" doesn't necessarily mean "high on marijuana"? Or would it be reasonable for you to be confident that that term was pretty much used the same way nationally?
Funny you should choose that example. I first heard stoked when I went to college in Florida -- I presume it originated as a surfer word, cause that's who used it. I told someone back home I was "totally stoked" about something and they had no idea what I was talking about b ut guessed from context that I was pleased -- this would be much more difficult with the idiom that is the subject of this thread. Language gets corrupted/evolves (read WordCourt or do a search for 'prescriptivist' on this board to see many a debate over what somethign "means."), why should idioms be any different? Hell, given that idioms are just that (i.e. not literal), they are more open to a variety of interpretations.

[whole bean]

No he doesn't. But I can't ever imagine anyone accusing him of "acting white" because he doesn't say skreet, either. Plenty of people "sound black" without using street slang and ebonics, and he's one of them.

Bryant Gumble, in contrast, is called an oreo because he speaks like a stereotypical white guy. He has that whole nasal thing going on that is often seized upon by comedians.

My point is that neither guy strikes me as more intelligent than the other, but Gumble is much more likely to be accused of "acting white" than Sharpton is. Coincidentally (or not), the public is also probably more apt to see Gumble as more intelligent because he sounds stereotypically white. Hence, the "acting white" insult is assumed to be about intelligence when its not.
I see. Would any of the following likely be accused of "acting white"

Oprah Winfrey
Tavis Smiley
Juan Williams
Barack Obama
Bill Cosby
Chris Rock (he's got the nerdiest voice of damn near anyone I've ever heard)
Will Smith

[pizzabrat]

Funny you should choose that example. I first heard stoked when I went to college in Florida -- I presume it originated as a surfer word, cause that's who used it. I told someone back home I was "totally stoked" about something and they had no idea what I was talking about but guessed from context that I was pleased -- this would be much more difficult with the idiom that is the subject of this thread.
Even still, "acting white" doesn't, through any immediate logic, convey "doing well in school", so there's no reason to imagine that it probably spread that way somewhere when it was once unfamiliar.

[whole bean]

Even still, "acting white" doesn't, through any immediate logic, convey "doing well in school", so there's no reason to imagine that it probably spread that way somewhere when it was once unfamiliar.

I'm not sure I follow the second half of this. No idiom conveys its meaning through "immediate logic," because idioms are not literal. Stoked, used idiomatically, has nothing to do with tending to a fire. It's intended meaning was inferred from context (my friend inferred that I was pleased when I told him I was totally stoked). From context, White American (mistakenly) inferred the intra-racial slur "acting white" to be: acting in a manner associated with academic success and/or demonstrating characteristics of being well-educated. White America did not provide the context. The speaker did/does. I am not trying to attack you by stating you don't speak for black Americans everywhere. I've heard the phrase "acting white" used in contexts completely inconsistent with the defintion you are advocating as universal.

[you with the face]

I see. Would any of the following likely be accused of "acting white"

Oprah Winfrey
Tavis Smiley
Juan Williams
Barack Obama
Bill Cosby
Chris Rock (he's got the nerdiest voice of damn near anyone I've ever heard)
Will Smith

I'm not one to accuse anyone of "acting white" so I may not be qualified to answer your question, but out of this list of people, the only person who I could see being accused of that (by a large number of people) is Oprah. And only because she sometimes does that whole OHMYGOD! thing. My assessment has nothing to do with how erudite she sounds.

Tavis, Juan, Barack, Bill, Chris, and Will...none of those guys makes me think they would have had to deal with the "acting white" thing very much. I could be wrong, though. I dunno. You didn't ask about him, but I could see Dave Chappelle getting it because I get a sense he may have been a geeky kid, and his blaccent accent isn't particularly strong. There's a midwestern blandness to his diction.

[whole bean]

I'm not one to accuse anyone of "acting white" so I may not be qualified to answer your question, but out of this list of people, the only person who I could see being accused of that (by a large number of people) is Oprah. And only because she sometimes does that whole OHMYGOD! thing. My assessment has nothing to do with how erudite she sounds.

Tavis, Juan, Barack, Bill, Chris, and Will...none of those guys makes me think they would have had to deal with the "acting white" thing very much. I could be wrong, though. I dunno. You didn't ask about him, but I could see Dave Chappelle getting it because I get a sense he may have been a geeky kid, and his blaccent accent isn't particularly strong. There's a midwestern blandness to his diction.
I was going to bring him up, but figured Chris Rock kind of fit that bill and he would just be duplicative. I know that sounds weird with Juan and Tavis on there but Juan has been very crititcal of many elements of hip hop culture while Tavis really just comes across as a black Charlie Rose. Good interviewer, asks some tough questions but doesn't appear terribly partisan. Tavis also yuks it up sometimes, Juan not so much. The Barack thing surprises me kind of, but then it shouldn't. I was at his rally at Tech a couple of weeks ago and he had a very strong following among Atlanta's considerable black intelectual crowd, but when he tries to "be real" he does kind of come across as plastic. I like the guy a lot and want to see him do well, so I hope his stump speech improves. It's not good when your warm up guy is better then you (even if your warm up guy is Joe Lowrey).

[Hippy Hollow]

Grad school, sure. I am telling you that at an economically depressed public middle school in lower Alabama in the mid 1980s, it was not cool to do well in school. It was "cool" to skip class, smoke pot, have sex and steal bikes.
Well, at an economically depressed public high school in the barrio of East Austin in the late 1980s, all the things you mention were "cool," but not incompatible with doing well in school (with the possible exception of skipping class, though I can verify that a bunch of us went to our teachers and told them we were skipping school on senior skip day. They told us to be careful.)

Our salutatorian fenced car radios. Most of us were sexually experienced, or at least had girlfriends/boyfriends so we could lie about it. There was a crack house across from school, and weed wasn't a big deal, if you smoked it or not. You sure as hell didn't do it at school, because we had cops and the occasional drug dog coming through. Gold Star paint was the popular narcotic, and those folks rarely made it to school, and certainly weren't considered cool.

Our top ten graduates, if I remember correctly were: 2 White, 2 Asian, 1 guy who was half White and half Asian, 3 Black, and 2 Latino. I will certainly place myself in the slightly nerdy class, but only one of us was really considered "uncool." And he was a weird duck, period. We were known and popular, played sports, worked jobs afterschool, had disputes with some kids, and not others.

I guess the term "cool" was so diffuse, that if you weren't extreme in any direction and had friends, you were generally considered thus. Either that or you were just "unknown."

I already mentioned my experience teaching in inner-city Houston. I supervised a research project at a local high school east of Boston last year. We interviewed about twenty students, almost all African-American or recent Black immigrants. When we asked kids to describe themselves, they all mentioned their grades and were proud of their A's and B's (while occasionally glossing over their C's and worse).

I think there's the archetype of the "nerd" - socially awkward, oddly clothed, and smart without much effort, brownnosers - and when kids see each other close up, they realize how often smart kids can be socially adept, wear cool clothes, and work hard. Similar to a lot of my athlete friends, who probably spent the most time worrying about grades so they could be eligible to play. They were eager to disprove that they weren't "dumb jocks."

As for the kids who aren't involved, that might be where the derision comes from. But by high school those kids are rarely part of the expansive social network, because they're not in school, where kids spend most of the day. Just my anecdotal experience here.

[monstro]

I see. Would any of the following likely be accused of "acting white"

Oprah Winfrey
Tavis Smiley
Juan Williams
Barack Obama
Bill Cosby
Chris Rock (he's got the nerdiest voice of damn near anyone I've ever heard)
Will Smith

It's interesting you have Tavis on the list. I can't guess who the "most likely" would be, but he would definitely be the "least likely". He's an example of a well-spoken black people who sounds identifiable black. My ears register him as coming out of the southern black church tradition of oration.

[pizzabrat]

From context, White American (mistakenly) inferred the intra-racial slur "acting white" to be: acting in a manner associated with academic success and/or demonstrating characteristics of being well-educated. White America did not provide the context.They provided the context of overhearing people who weren't speaking to them. And "demonstrating characteristics of being well-educated", which I won't argue is a usage of the term, is not exactly the same as "being academically successful", which I am arguing, so don't slip that "and/or" in so easily. I am not trying to attack you by stating you don't speak for black Americans everywhere. I've heard the phrase "acting white" used in contexts completely inconsistent with the definition you are advocating as universal.That's why I said "'White', in this usage, doesn't mean academically successful". I wasn't claiming that the idiom is only used one way, I'm claiming that simply "academically successful" is not one of its usages, and in those instances where outside observers misinterpreted it that way it was actually being used as a synonym for dorky. I've also admitted that dorkiness and academic success easily overlaps. So when have you heard the term used inconsistently with what I'm saying, because the anecdotes you've given so far don't contradict me?

[you with the face]

My ears register him as coming out of the southern black church tradition of oration.

Obama does for me too. Ain't nothing Bryant Gumble-esque about him at all.

[whole bean]

It's interesting you have Tavis on the list. I can't guess who the "most likely" would be, but he would definitely be the "least likely". He's an example of a well-spoken black people who sounds identifiable black. My ears register him as coming out of the southern black church tradition of oration.
That's why he's on there. I wanted to list some people who, if they called me on the phone, I would know they were black. I recognize his voice as that of a black man. I recognize the voices of Rock, Smith, and Winfrey as the voices of blacks. Cosby, Williams and expecially Obama, I would not place immediately as black.

[whole bean]

Obama does for me too. Ain't nothing Bryant Gumble-esque about him at all.
really? there's nothing "southern" about him either.

[Hippy Hollow]

I see. Would any of the following likely be accused of "acting white"

Oprah Winfrey
Tavis Smiley
Juan Williams
Barack Obama
Bill Cosby
Chris Rock (he's got the nerdiest voice of damn near anyone I've ever heard)
Will Smith
Ooh, I want to play!

Oprah - I think she is respected and acknowledged as being "down," though her topics on her show might suggest that she is the White middle-class woman's best friend. I also think her vocal opposition to hip hop, and especially the way she treated Chris Bridges (Ludacris) had people questioning her "Blackness." The discourse has advanced that hip hop is very naughty indeed, so I think she's in the clear. Most of all, I think a lot of people see her kind of disconnected from a Black reality - she's rich as hell, she's not married and has no kids. So a lot of issues that Black people deal with on a daily basis, she doesn't. (Again, this is just among the folks I roll with in my neck of the woods.)

Tavis - he's what a lot of us call "country." He is 200 percent Black, couldn't escape his Blackness if he wanted to. As monstro notes, he's got a lot of church-rearing evidence in him.

Juan Williams - maybe by some, because of his political beliefs. However, he's not terribly out of step with what a lot of Black folks think, so I would say generally, no.

Barack - if you saw him on that clip when Sharpton's Blackberry goes off when he's speaking, and he joshes with him that Hillary was calling, I think that earned him a lot of cred among Black people. My sample is skewed because he's a Harvard Law grad and most of my friends are Harvard affiliated. But I think he is accepted like a lot of biracial or first-generation Black Americans are. It seems you have a choice where you can either say, "Hey, I'm one of you," or go the Tiger Woods route. (Not criticizing, but I'm pretty sure that you would have a hard time finding someone Black who thought that he had a strong Black identity.) He's chosen to ally with Black Americans - his wife is African American, goes to a Black church, etc.

Bill - always Black. I think many are somewhat disappointed with his approach from a few years back, but I think most Black people I know think he has legitimate positions. He just didn't articulate them very well, initially. He has some scandals as well, which I think in some ways endears him to a lot of us. (Yes, that is a crazy sentence.)

Chris - his commentary on issues of race make him perhaps one of the most prominent commentators on the issue of race, entertainment or otherwise. Knowing where he came from, what his comedy is about, who he is (was?) married to - he's firmly in the family, as we say. (I know gay folks use that term as well, but I'm not using it that way.)

Will - back in the day, he totally came across as a nerdy person (and it seems that he did indeed do quite well in school - I heard he got into MIT). But I never sensed that he was considered to "act White." Geeky, nerdy, yes, but again, he has a Black wife and his choice of projects usually represent Black people in a good light.

I think you have to look at people who take very public positions that are contrary to how a lot of Black people think - your Ward Connerlys, John McWhorters, and Clarence Thomases - who might be considered to "act White." It's more than what one does for a living, or how one speaks. It's those things, but also a commitment to ideas that work against the (perceived) best interests of Black people. Personally I don't think these people are "acting White." I've actually spoken with McWhorter before and found that we agreed on a number of things.

Just my $.02...

[whole bean]

They provided the context of overhearing people who weren't speaking to them. And "demonstrating characteristics of being well-educated", which I won't argue is a usage of the term, is not exactly the same as "being academically successful", which I am arguing, so don't slip that "and/or" in so easily. That's why I said "'White', in this usage, doesn't mean academically successful". I wasn't claiming that the idiom is only used one way, I'm claiming that simply "academically successful" is not one of its usages, and in those instances where outside observers misinterpreted it that way it was actually being used as a synonym for dorky. I've also admitted that dorkiness and academic success easily overlaps. So when have you heard the term used inconsistently with what I'm saying, because the anecdotes you've given so far don't contradict me?

"Being well educated" is practically synonymous with "being academically succesful." How likely is the scenario that one is educated without succesfully assimilating knwoledge and displaying that assimilation? Good Will Hunting was a fictional movie. If the former is a usage of the idom then it's no leap for the for the latter to be as well.

[pizzabrat]

"Being well educated" is practically synonymous with "being academically succesful."
:mad: It sure is, but that's not what you said.

[whole bean]

Will - back in the day, he totally came across as a nerdy person (and it seems that he did indeed do quite well in school - I heard he got into MIT). But I never sensed that he was considered to "act White." Geeky, nerdy, yes, but again, he has a Black wife and his choice of projects usually represent Black people in a good light.

Just my $.02...
according to the OP, 'geeky, nerdy" is "acting white."

[you with the face]

really? there's nothing "southern" about him either.

When he delivers a speech, he uses the same pacing, inflection, and rhythm that you'd see in a black church. Nothing about the way he talks says "white" to me.

[whole bean]

:mad: It sure is, but that's not what you said.
My bad, I didn't mean to do that. The "showing characteristics of" is critical here then? In other words, being a nerd show-off?

[whole bean]

When he delivers a speech, he uses the same pacing, inflection, and rhythm that you'd see in a black church. Nothing about the way he talks says "white" to me.
yeah, see, the time I saw him in person, it felt forced. YMObviouslyV

[pizzabrat]

according to the OP, 'geeky, nerdy" is "acting white."Actually I said "dorky", and some hardcore lexicographers (http://www.google.com/search?q=dork+nerd+geek&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a) will argue a difference between all three (link is to a google search of all three terms that bring up plenty of discussions about the difference between the terms. The consensus you'll find is that dork is exclusively a harsh pejorative, unlike the other two).

[you with the face]

yeah, see, the time I saw him in person, it felt forced. YMObviouslyV

First time I saw him was during the Democratic Convention in '04 and I kept waiting for someone in the audience to yell "amen".

[Biggirl]

Black people say skreet instead of street? Maybe that's regional. Like 'ax' for ask as opposed to 'ast'.


One thing I know for sure-- language is slippery.

[pizzabrat]

My bad, I didn't mean to do that. The "showing characteristics of" is critical here then?Yes. In other words, being a nerd show-off?Not "show-off", but just behaving like an archetype of an educated person - ex. using a large vocabulary with a prestige dialect, or at least no strong regional accent. Or wearing clothes that fit with subtle colors and design. In fact, showing off is a characteristic antithetical to that of an educated persona.

[Cemetery Savior]

Yeech - you call it "reading one's audience", I call it talking down to people.

Slight hijack here.

It's not a racist thing, but it's class-ist, so maybe the fact there's a differentiation makes it belong here.

In a prior job, I was a public speaker (presented insurance plans to clients). We had a whole range of clients, from blue-collar factories (I think you know where I'm going here) to wingtip law firms.

When I presented the same benefit plan to both types of client, do you think I used the same tone and language? Not necessarily, and it wasn't about "talking down" to the blue-collar folks.

When I presented to the law firms, I was very careful to speak properly, fully using my (pretty large) vocabulary. It was an issue of not giving them a reson to doubt what I was saying. If I were to come out of the gate with grammatical errors, there would be a subconcious (and concious, for others) tune-out.

When I spoke to the blue-collar groups, I used more humor, and made sure I wasn't flowery at all. The usual attendant at those presentations was more interested in what he could relay to his wife (sorry, but it's true....wives usually make benefits decisions...usually.). Therefore, I kept it very simple, and put the more detailed stuff in the handouts.

Was I being condecending? Absoutely not. Knowing your audience is a necessary piece of being a good presenter.

I also personally think knowing your audience is a pretty big chunk of being a good conversationalist, teammate, co-worker, and friend.

-Cem

[pizzabrat]

FTR, I was responding directly to a poster who said he switches speech patterns for white and black audiences of the same educational level. I'm against any behavioral expectations based on race, particularly for blacks since as a rule they're ultimately negative (edit: unless it's based on something physical like hair or skin).

[you with the face]

FTRI'm against any behavioral expectations based on race, particularly for blacks since as a rule they're ultimately negative (edit: unless it's based on something physical like hair or skin).

I don't get this. Can you explain?

Do you think blacks tend to relate to one another differently than whites do?

I don't get why you think "behavioral expectations" are negative for black people. Seems like what you're saying is white = right, but correct me if I'm wrong.

[pizzabrat]

I don't get this. Can you explain?

Do you think blacks tend to relate to one another differently than whites do?Not necessarily so, and I'd resent anyone expecting me to relate to anyone in any certain way solely based on my race.

I don't get why you think "behavioral expectations" are negative for black people. Seems like what you're saying is white = right, but correct me if I'm wrong.I'm saying just about every expectation for (i.e. stereotype about) blacks is negative - but I don't get how that's the same as saying white = right.

[Bryan Ekers]

"Just because you want to spend your life sounding like ignorant assholes, doesn't mean you can bring my kid down with you. If you really want to play this stupid game: You think he's sounds like a "Poindexter"? Well, I think you sound like Welfare Queens."


It really annoys me when black people think that in order to "be black" you have to talk like an idiot.

WOOO! PREACH IT, SISTER! [raises clenched fist, fingers curled around a Bachelor's Degree]

Seriously, I also hate dumbed-down vocabularies in the name of conformity, and I've used words like "tally-ho" and "promulgate" in conversation. What screwed me up academically for a long time wasn't ridicule from my peers, though, but good old laziness.

"Where you at?".... brrrrrr.

[whole bean]

Actually I said "dorky", and some hardcore lexicographers (http://www.google.com/search?q=dork+nerd+geek&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a) will argue a difference between all three (link is to a google search of all three terms that bring up plenty of discussions about the difference between the terms. The consensus you'll find is that dork is exclusively a harsh pejorative, unlike the other two).
eh, for our purposes here I think they're close enough to being synonymous. setting hard and fast definitions for slang is slippery territory

[you with the face]

Not necessarily so, and I'd resent anyone expecting me to relate to anyone in any certain way solely based on my race.

That's understandable. When you're relating to individuals that you've had no prior contact with, you need to treat them as such. That's not the same thing as code switching between two different environments that (history has told you) do not communicate the same way.

I'm saying just about every expectation for (i.e. stereotype about) blacks is negative - but I don't get how that's the same as saying white = right.

Because we're not talking about stereotypes. Not all expectations are based on stereotypes. When I mark Tavis Smiley as "sounding black" that recognition is not based on a stereotype. It's based on an awareness that, due to cultural differences, blacks as a group use certain communications styles that whites do not. Tavis uses such a style.

What Hippy is saying is that he employs a "black" style when communicating with others who use that particular style. That's the essence of code switching, and it's not about dumbing anything down. Honestly, the only way I could see why anyone would think that it is is if they equate black communication styles with automatically sounding uneducated, which is why white = right popped into my head.

[whole bean]

using a large vocabulary with a prestige dialect, or at least no strong regional accent . . . wearing clothes that fit with subtle colors and design.

this is "acting white," then in your book, or at least an example of it?

I am really confused here. You got emoticon red-faced with me when I equated "being educated" with being "academically succesful" and suggested that you had said "being educated" was sometimes referred to as "acting white," when you were actually referencing "displaying characterisitcs of being educated" which is not exactly synonymous with being "academically succesful" depending on how you interpret "displaying characterisitcs of." Let me clear my earlier statement up, by "displaying characteristsics of," I meant "acting," such that I have heard the "acting white" used in the context of a black person "acting well educated." Is consistent with ways that you've heard the phrase used? Do you think it's bad for a black person to "act white" in this sense?

[whole bean]

First time I saw him was during the Democratic Convention in '04 and I kept waiting for someone in the audience to yell "amen".
yeah, I know, which magnified my disappoinment. I know Atlanta was a courtesy stop/friendly audience, a blue city in a red state.

[Nzinga, Seated]

I agree with the OP. It is a pet peeve of mine that there is a myth out there that blacks look down on intelligent blacks for 'acting white'. Never happened in my school. Kids were teased for poor reading skills and other signs of not being smart.

It is a myth, pure and simple, and it needs to be debunked.

There were things that would get one accused of 'acting white'. But it had nothing to do with intelligence. It had nothing to do with speaking English properly. It was more the style in which it was spoken.

Malcom X spoke English well, but he would never be accused of "acting white".

[Evil One]

There's a cool way of speaking (an affected bassiness with a barking cadence and heavy, up-to-the-second slang, frex), and an uncool way (a nasal intonation with relatively precise enunciation and a moderate pace, perhaps).

Is this one of the ways one volunteers to be a member of the underclass?

[pizzabrat]

this is "acting white," then in your book, or at least an example of it?An example - I don't use "acting white" in my book.

Let me clear my earlier statement up, by "displaying characteristsics of," I meant "acting," such that I have heard the "acting white" used in the context of a black person "acting well educated." Is consistent with ways that you've heard the phrase used?Mmm... I don't know, "displaying the characteristics of being well educated" feels more precise, for some reason. Do you think it's bad for a black person to "act white" in this sense?Of course not.

[pizzabrat]

What Hippy is saying is that he employs a "black" style when communicating with others who use that particular style. That's the essence of code switching, and it's not about dumbing anything down.Then what's the point switching styles in the first place?

[Nzinga, Seated]

this is "acting white," then in your book, or at least an example of it?

Whole Bean, I cannot answer for Pizzabrat, because I sure as hell don't agree with her/him, (sorry, I don't know which) on some serious topics.

But I do notice a bit of projecting going on here. The things she mentioned was not 'acting white' in my book, but in my culture, there were very, very many who did consider a certain style as 'acting white.'

The myth comes into play when people (both white and black) begin to spout off in the media that this 'acting white' thing was about academic success. It was not. I never, ever knew any black, no matter how hard core, ghetto, cool, hip-hoppy, whatever, to put down someone as 'acting white' just because they were smart. That didn't happen!

I think the fact that this myth persists is not good for the black community. It is harder to win the respect we deserve from our fellow man when our fellow man is taught that we don't respect ourselves enough to value education.

[pizzabrat]

Whole Bean, I cannot answer for Pizzabrat, because I sure as hell don't agree with her/him, (sorry, I don't know which)...I guess my new location line doesn't work...

[furt]

And of course, I can reflect on my years in the classroom. What was the one thing that once said would start a fight in my school, a 99% African American, 100% free lunch school? It wasn't insults about someone's family, or cracks about the clothes students wore. It was calling another student "stupid." Kids would actually insult each other by bringing up low grades. That's part of the reason it was so hard to get students to read aloud - the struggling readers were afraid of being insulted if their peers heard them reading poorly.And this is why anecdotal evidence is always of limited value: I went to a 90+% minority high school, where I heard it used explicitly in the way Ogbu describes. I recall it quite clearly, because it was so strange to me (having come from a 90+% white middle school). The guy I heard it most often applied to was someone who was not a dork in any usual sense (starting football player, was popular), nor was he prone to dropping polysyllables. But he routinely got near-perfect grades, and he was routinely teased for it. It was mostly good-natured ... but he was also obviously uncomfortable with it, and (being at that age where peer acceptance is so important) I always felt sorry for him.

As a teacher, I have students tell me that it was unfair to base a large portion of a grade on class participation, because it is "white" to volunteer one's thoughts in class discussion.


It may well be that the phenomena is less common than some have said; but is the sort of issue on which it is ridiculous to issue blanket statements, whether "All black kids face this pressure" or "it is a myth, pure and simple."

[Nzinga, Seated]

I guess my new location line doesn't work...

Damnit! Sorry. I will remember in the future.

[you with the face]

Then what's the point switching styles in the first place?

Because speaking like others speak makes communication more efficient. When in Rome and all of that.

I mean, you could just as easily say that using a certain style around white people is "dumbing things down", too. But you're not saying that for some reason.

[pizzabrat]

And this is why anecdotal evidence is always of limited value: I went to a 90+% minority high school, where I heard it used explicitly in the way Ogbu describes. I recall it quite clearly, because it was so strange to me (having come from a 90+% white middle school). The guy I heard it most often applied to was someone who was not a dork in any usual sense (starting football player, was popular), nor was he prone to dropping polysyllables. But he routinely got near-perfect grades, and he was routinely teased for it. It was mostly good-natured ... but he was also obviously uncomfortable with it, and (being at that age where peer acceptance is so important) I always felt sorry for him.Really? This was a black student being called "white" by other black students solely because of his grades? How did you know that that's what was going on (and how did they know his grades?)?

As a teacher, I have students tell me that it was unfair to base a large portion of a grade on class participation, because it is "white" to volunteer one's thoughts in class discussion.Exactly what I addressed already in my OP.

[Evil One]

One of the realities of life is that we are judged by the way we present ourselves to others. If someone wants to be financially successful in our society, one of the prices of admission is to be able to communicate in such a way that they will be taken seriously. And "where you at, homey?" won't cut it.

It seems to me that some people resent this fact and have created a backlash toward proper spoken and written english in response. Whether it is in the spirit of rebellion or an effort to preserve self-esteem, some people seem to be almost belligerently incorrect. Proper spelling and enunciation is frowned upon.

The problem with this attitude is that it says "I hereby volunteer to limit my personal and financial success"...otherwise known as "keepin' it real, yo."

[pizzabrat]

Because speaking like others speak makes communication more efficient. When in Rome and all of that.

I mean, you could just as easily say that using a certain style around white people is "dumbing things down", too. But you're not saying that for some reason.Because Hippy Hollow explained his practice with this:
But to use the phrase that so many Black ministers use, there's a real need to "make it plain" when talking to Black folks.Which implies "dumbing down" more than it does using terms and rhetoric that would be unfamiliar to a white audience.

[Evil One]

I mean, you could just as easily say that using a certain style around white people is "dumbing things down", too. But you're not saying that for some reason.

It depends on which white people. I think the line of demarcation is socio-economic, not skin color. If you listen to a bunch of white clowns in baggy pants and sideways baseball hats, chances are they will not be using proper english.

And by doing so, they are also making the same choice to limit their future.

[monstro]

One of the realities of life is that we are judged by the way we present ourselves to others. If someone wants to be financially successful in our society, one of the prices of admission is to be able to communicate in such a way that they will be taken seriously. And "where you at, homey?" won't cut it.

It seems to me that some people resent this fact and have created a backlash toward proper spoken and written english in response. Whether it is in the spirit of rebellion or an effort to preserve self-esteem, some people seem to be almost belligerently incorrect. Proper spelling and enunciation is frowned upon.

The problem with this attitude is that it says "I hereby volunteer to limit my personal and financial success"...otherwise known as "keepin' it real, yo."

You imply that black people are the only ones who speak slang...or that when we talk about "black English", we are talking ONLY about slang.

We aren't.

Like Hippy, I code-switch between AAVE and standard. And never in my life have I called anyone "homey" or said "keepin' it real, yo".

[whole bean]

An example - I don't use "acting white" in my book..
By in "your book" I meant in your opinion/estimation/by your definition of "acting white." I did not mean that you employed the idiom. I doubt that this wasn't clear. That an authoritarian political ideology (generally tied to a mass movement) that considers individual and other societal interests inferior to the needs of the state is facism "in my book" does not make me a facsist. Like, I said, I doubt this wasn't clear. So my question remains, now reworded, does "using a large vocabulary with a prestige dialect, or at least no strong regional accent . . . wearing clothes that fit with subtle colors and design" consitute "acting white," as that term is employed, and as you have designated yourself the interprepter of how it is employed?
Mmm... I don't know, "displaying the characteristics of being well educated" feels more precise, for some reason. Of course not.
More precise for the message you inferred, but not the one I meant. "Acting" is what I meant.

[you with the face]

Because Hippy Hollow explained his practice with this:
Which implies "dumbing down" more than it does using terms and rhetoric that would be unfamiliar to a white audience.

I'll leave it to him to explain what he means by "making it plain". I just took issue with your likening code switching to dumbing one's speech down. They are not the same thing.

[Nzinga, Seated]

It may well be that the phenomena is less common than some have said; but is the sort of issue on which it is ridiculous to issue blanket statements, whether "All black kids face this pressure" or "it is a myth, pure and simple

Oh, I stand by that statement. I will be the first to admit that every race on the planet may have some children that tease others for being smart. But the myth that I speak of is the one that claims that this is a bigger issue with the black community. I assure you, that is just not the case.


It was mostly good-natured

Yeah? Most likely then, it did not fall under the media myth that I am familiar with. Because they claim that blacks are more likely to put eachother down for being smart...and they don't mean 'good naturedly'.

The fact is, there is a misconception that blacks don't value education and that we consider it a 'white' thing. I promise you that I have never met a single black person in my life that accuses someone of acting white because they are smart.

I really do feel it is vital that we crush this misconception.

[whole bean]

You imply that black people are the only ones who speak slang...or that when we talk about "black English", we are talking ONLY about slang.

We aren't.

Like Hippy, I code-switch between AAVE and standard. And never in my life have I called anyone "homey" or said "keepin' it real, yo".
Actually, I don't think we're talking about code swtichers. Most code switchers are actively avoiding trouble. In my estimation, many likely to levy the "acting white" insult, never switch. They are ghettto 24-7.

But, you are very right. Many, if not most professionals (white or black), code switch and use slang. In an ironic way, I address my pals on the phone "'s'up homey," or say to my wife "what's crappenin." I wouldn't speak this way to my boss.

[whole bean]

Oh, I stand by that statement. I will be the first to admit that every race on the planet may have some children that tease others for being smart. But the myth that I speak of is the one that claims that this is a bigger issue with the black community. I assure you, that is just not the case.




Yeah? Most likely then, it did not fall under the media myth that I am familiar with. Because they claim that blacks are more likely to put eachother down for being smart...and they don't mean 'good naturedly'.

The fact is, there is a misconception that blacks don't value education and that we consider it a 'white' thing. I promise you that I have never met a single black person in my life that accuses someone of acting white because they are smart.

I really do feel it is vital that we crush this misconception.
I must admit that this thread has been truly educational for me. Thanks to all for the comments.

[Hippy Hollow]

And this is why anecdotal evidence is always of limited value: I went to a 90+% minority high school, where I heard it used explicitly in the way Ogbu describes. I recall it quite clearly, because it was so strange to me (having come from a 90+% white middle school). The guy I heard it most often applied to was someone who was not a dork in any usual sense (starting football player, was popular), nor was he prone to dropping polysyllables. But he routinely got near-perfect grades, and he was routinely teased for it. It was mostly good-natured ... but he was also obviously uncomfortable with it, and (being at that age where peer acceptance is so important) I always felt sorry for him.
Which I why I supplemented my own experience with more recent studies from Perry, Hilliard, etc.

I've been accused of "acting White," as well. But I can see that there were several contributing factors:

Unfamiliar with most American slang, AAVE
talking in a fairly nasal tone
speaking fast
being terribly fashion unconscious
being close to teachers
not being terribly social (actually, I was a little afraid of a lot of the Black kids at my school

That was me at 14. By 17, most of these factors had changed (sorry, still talk fast). So again, I wasn't the downest brother, but definitely part of the clique.

As a teacher, I have students tell me that it was unfair to base a large portion of a grade on class participation, because it is "white" to volunteer one's thoughts in class discussion.
This is where I go upside the collective heads of the knuckleheads who vocalize such foolishness. Frederick Douglass would have spoken in class. Sojourner Truth, Fannie Lou Hamer, Barbara Jordan, Martin Luther King, Jr., and so on would have spoken in class. The hell?

It may well be that the phenomena is less common than some have said; but is the sort of issue on which it is ridiculous to issue blanket statements, whether "All black kids face this pressure" or "it is a myth, pure and simple."
I think you have to think a little more why folks are vociferous about this issue. Historians like James Anderson and Amilcar Shabazz can provide copious evidence of the struggles that Black Americans endured in the name of education. There is a very strong legacy of the elevation of education in Black communities. Vanessa Siddle Walker talks about the strengths of Black schools before integration - the assumption that fewer resources equals a lesser education does not necessarily hold.

There are so many explanations for Black student underperformance that doesn't put the blame on the kids. Low expectations by teachers - both Black and White teachers - is an explanation that Ray Rist has studied. Cultural relevance and respect has been explored by Gloria Ladson-Billings and Lisa Delpit. And what we're seeing from many posters in this thread, which is supported by sociologists like Prudence Carter, is that "acting White" has less to do with academic success than a way of carrying oneself - students labeled thusly are being accused of adopting majority culture ways of speech, fashion, tastes, at the expense of their own cultural heritage.

Now is that always fair and accurate? No. I can speak from personal experience that it bothered me when Black people assumed because I sounded different that I was somehow suspect. But I did notice that when I got to know more Black kids, I got a lot of respect for doing well in school. But always, crap about being nerdy... as I got from Latino and Asian friends. (White friends, not so much. Probably because they were nerdier.)

[Nzinga, Seated]

I did want to squeeze in on the issue of switching styles.

It doesn't mean that we speak, "better" English when we aren't in our own little circles. (although it is totally natural to loosen up some of the grammar rules when in informal company). It just means that we don't bring the same brand of slang and style that we bring with eachother.

White people have no problem with 'gonna'. They say that all the time. No big deal. But if a black person says, 'finna', as in "I am finna* go to the store", that is a style that doesn't fly well on the phone with a customer at work.

I switch styles all the time. At work, I know I can say, "Tell you what I'm gonna do, Thomas...I'm gonna waive that restocking fee for you, alrighty?", but it is not considered 'professional' to use "I'm finna dead that fee for you, alright, Sun?"

See...I didn't use 'proper' English when I spoke the 'professional' way. Proper English has little to do with style switching.

* Yes, as a matter of fact, I do use the word, "finna" amongst my friends. My mother is from Virginia darnit, so don't judge me.

[pizzabrat]

By in "your book" I meant in your opinion/estimation/by your definition of "acting white." I did not mean that you employed the idiom. I doubt that this wasn't clear.Ok - just being clear. And by "an example", I meant yes.

[whole bean]

* Yes, as a matter of fact, I do use the word, "finna" amongst my friends. My mother is from Virginia darnit, so don't judge me.
s'cool, dude, I use the southern white version "ficksin' to."
My Wife: You mow the yard, yet?
Me: Noooo, I'm ficksin to though . . . a'ight?

[monstro]

* Yes, as a matter of fact, I do use the word, "finna" amongst my friends. My mother is from Virginia darnit, so don't judge me.

I say "finna" and "fixin". When I'm getting really carried away, I say "fitna".

[Hippy Hollow]

Because Hippy Hollow explained his practice with this:
Which implies "dumbing down" more than it does using terms and rhetoric that would be unfamiliar to a white audience.
Oh wow. That is completely inaccurate reading of the phrase.

"Making it plain" means speaking directly and forcefully. Not speaking in a cover-your-ass-you'll-never-get-the-truth-out-of-me kind of way. Not "dumbing down." The majority of Black folks I interact with are nationally prominent scholars... or scholars in training. I don't think I could actively "dumb down" my language anyway, because in my field (education) we are trained to make or work accessible to people from across many disciplines... sociologists, economists, historians, psychologists... so we cut the jargon (unless we're writing for other educators, of course).

It's more of content, tone, cadence, and engaging my fellow speaker. Not everybody is down like this, and I can fairly accurately gauge if I can "make it plain" with a group of folks, pretty quickly and easily.

[Biggirl]

Yeah? Most likely then, it did not fall under the media myth that I am familiar with. Because they claim that blacks are more likely to put eachother down for being smart...and they don't mean 'good naturedly'.


Except for the fact that black people do put others down for using big words or getting good grades. My own family made my son cry for using a big word. My daughter purposely tanked for half a year at school because of this.

It happens. And, like Hippy, I like to go upside people's heads when they do this. I don't like to pretend that my own experiences are something the white media made up.

[whole bean]

Ok - just being clear. And by "an example", I meant yes.
sorry. Dude, are you pissed about this?

[Hippy Hollow]

I say "finna" and "fixin". When I'm getting really carried away, I say "fitna".
fid'na, Texas style.

[whole bean]

Except for the fact that black people do put others down for using big words or getting good grades. My own family made my son cry for using a big word. My daughter purposely tanked for half a year at school because of this.

It happens. And, like Hippy, I like to go upside people's heads when they do this. I don't like to pretend that my own experiences are something the white media made up.
which brings me back to my confusion, because I think I have witnessed what you experienced . . . .which until your post, I concluded was a misunderstanding

[Nzinga, Seated]

I don't like to pretend that my own experiences are something the white media made up.

Ok. I totally respect that. I don't like the media of any color to pretend that there is an epidemic of blacks disparaging blacks for being smart.

I don't doubt for a moment that is happened to your son. I am only promising you that it has happened to little white Johnny also. It is not a black thing at all.

And I will tread lightly here...

If your daughter really purposely failed tests and sabotaged her school work because she thought her black peers would reject her for her good grades...I would probably take some time to consult with her if there are other things going on that may be causing her problems getting along with other black kids in school.

[whole bean]

Ok. I don't doubt for a moment that is happened to your son. I am only promising you that it has happened to little white Johnny also. It is not a black thing at all.
As my posts upthread account, I can attest to that.

[pizzabrat]

sorry. Dude, are you pissed about this?
Huh? No...

[pizzabrat]

Except for the fact that black people do put others down for using big words or getting good grades. My own family made my son cry for using a big word. My daughter purposely tanked for half a year at school because of this.But you already explained that she wasn't exactly being teased for getting good grades.

[whole bean]

Huh? No...
ok, I realized my post was a bit punkish and I didn't mean to come off that way

[Biggirl]

If your daughter really purposely failed tests and sabotaged her school work because she thought her black peers would reject her for her good grades...I would probably take some time to consult with her if there are other things going on that may be causing her problems getting along with other black kids in school.
Um, no. Squash that noise. And let me say, I don't care what white kids do it to. When the teasing causes these kind of problems with mine, I don't go looking for excuses for the kids doing the teasing. Smack them upside their heads. This is stupid behavior. Don't tolerate it.

[Biggirl]

But you already explained that she wasn't exactly being teased for getting good grades.
No. She was teased because she was percieved as 'white'. Professor Whitey is what they called her. Why do you think she was being teased about? Her tonal qualities?

[Nzinga, Seated]

Um, no. Squash that noise. And let me say, I don't care what white kids do it to. When the teasing causes these kind of problems with mine, I don't go looking for excuses for the kids doing the teasing. Smack them upside their heads. This is stupid behavior. Don't tolerate it.


You don't have to care what white kids do. (though it wouldn't hurt if we all cared what all kids do). But you should be concerned if there is propaganda being pushed that black kids have a culture that discourages learning, and white kids don't have that culture. I am concerned about that because it is exactly the kind of propaganda that breeds disrespect for a people.

That is never a good thing.

[Biggirl]

You don't have to care what white kids do. (though it wouldn't hurt if we all cared what all kids do). But you should be concerned if there is propaganda being pushed that black kids have a culture that discourages learning, and white kids don't have that culture. I am concerned about that because it is exactly the kind of propaganda that breeds disrespect for a people.

That is never a good thing.
Stop looking at it through white people's eyes. Who cares if they think that? WE need to address our own, not make excuses for stupid behavior.

[Nzinga, Seated]

Stop looking at it through white people's eyes

Biggirl....you do understand that being told that this happens when it doesn't causes our own little brothers and sisters to disrespect themselves, right?

We must not let myths abound unchecked. It is not the way to fight ignorance.

[Biggirl]

Biggirl....you do understand that being told that this happens when it doesn't causes our own little brothers and sisters to disrespect themselves, right?

We must not let myths abound unchecked. It is not the way to fight ignorance.
But it freakin happens! Holy shit! It happens a lot! When our little brothers and sisters disrespect themselves YOU SMACK THEM UPSIDE THEIR HEADS. You tell them this is stupid and destructive behavior. Don't do it.

[furt]

Really? This was a black student being called "white" by other black students solely because of his grades? How did you know that that's what was going on (and how did they know his grades?)?My most vivid recollection was a class where the teacher would announce who got the highest scores on each quiz. When it was one of the white kid, there was no response; when it was him, he was teased for it. The two jokes I remember clearly were someone he should change his lunch table (lunch tables were pretty much segregated), and another one where someone said we had "two and a half" white players on the football team, the "half" being this guy. As I said, he was not a nerd or a social outcast; he was just quiet, hardworking and very smart.

Exactly what I addressed already in my OP.Sorry I didn't finish that story. When I told them that there was no way they were going to get an A unless they participated in discussions, they said they understood that; I said something to the effect that "so it's not 'black' to get an A?", and they did not disagree.

You can split hairs on whether that's a disinclination to get an A, or a disinclination to be a nerd, but ISTM you end up splitting hairs: the bottom line is that these two kids had internalized a message that they were somehow racially disloyal if they did not obey some sort of behavioral code, even when meant acting in ways that were obviously not in their best interests. That's a pretty messed-up deal there.

[Nzinga, Seated]

But it freakin happens

When I say it doesn't happen, I refer to a specific Myth.

The myth that it happens as a staple of black culture.

I know that it happens, but I would like very much to kill the myth that it happens as a rule with black youth, and not with other cultures.

If we let this propaganda continue to be pushed, our kids will begin to believe it.

When I was a kid, the media propaganda convinced me of many things that education, hard work, reflection, and a pursuit of knowledge was able to disspell.

But if I had not worked hard to learn the truth, I may be walking around here with blue contacts, hating my own beautiful brown eyes, to name just one bit of propaganda I had to overcome.

I don't mean to bicker with you...I realize I am reacting strongly. It is only because I am convinced that attacking misinformation is the best thing for everyone.

It is misinformation that blacks are more likely to put eachother down and call eachother 'whitey' for being smart.

People of every race and culture will have some that teases others for being smart...it is not a 'black thing' though.

[pizzabrat]

You can split hairs on whether that's a disinclination to get an A, or a disinclination to be a nerd, but ISTM you end up splitting hairs: the bottom line is that these two kids had internalized a message that they were somehow racially disloyal if they did not obey some sort of behavioral code, even when meant acting in ways that were obviously not in their best interests. That's a pretty messed-up deal there.And I wouldn't disagree with that.

[Biggirl]

When I say it doesn't happen, I refer to a specific Myth.


So when this Myth with a capital 'M" actually happens, the response should be to remind everyone involved that what is happening is something made up by the media. Oh, and, don't call people on their own destructive behavior but try to understand why they are acting like assholes and-- um--- heal them or something?

When our little brothers and sisters act in a way that is bad for them you correct that behavior.

[monstro]

Biggirl....you do understand that being told that this happens when it doesn't causes our own little brothers and sisters to disrespect themselves, right?

We must not let myths abound unchecked. It is not the way to fight ignorance.

Even though I believe black people aren't as anti-intellectual as the mic holders would like us to believe, I am still annoyed when black people call others out for "acting white". This phenomona is not a myth. It happens too often and its detrimental as anti-intellectualism.

I also think that while "acting white" is not universally used as an anti-intellectual stance, it can easily be mistaken as such by young people--who try so hard to fit in. They may stay away from certain activities or interests not because people will tease them, but because they are afraid of being teased. They may be avoid going to certain schools not because they will be teased, but because they are afraid of being teased. They may go out of their way to be rude to authority figures not because they will be teased if they don't, but because they are afraid that they will be.

Someone once said that the hallmark of white culture is conformity. I would say the same thing about black people. If you don't dress "black", talk "black", or wear your hair "black", then you risk getting called "white". And it extends to ideological differences. If you aren't Christian or Muslim (heaven forbid if you're atheist), if you vote Republican, if you are gay or gay-friendly...you risk that stinging label. Sometimes when I find myself doing something different--like sloshing around in alligator waters with water mocassins staring at me through the bushes--I hear a sista-girl voice in the back of my mind going, "Now you know only white folks do shit like this! Who are you tryin' to fool?"

Sometimes the insult is implied. "I don't know how you grew up, but my people don't do [whatever it is you're doing]". I received this comment from an undergrad assistant who was helping me with my graduate project. We later became friends, but there was no doubt what she was hinting at. I was "suspect"off the bat, because I wasn't cool enough. Fortunately, I'm beyond the impressionable stage and confident enough in my racial identity to not let that kind of insult bother me, but I have to wonder about the effects of that thinking on young black kids trying to break the mold.

So while I think there's serious overstatement of the phenomona, I don't think it's nonexistent enough to be called a "myth". It's not anti-intellectual, per se. It's "anti-different".

[furt]

Which I why I supplemented my own experience with more recent studies from Perry, Hilliard, etc.And I cpuld cite Ogbu.

As I said, it's one thing to argue that the phenomena is less common than some might imagine; it's a very different thing to say, as you did, that it is a complete myth.


I don't disagree with most of the rest of the post, although I don't see where anyone is trying to "put the blame on the kids." Nobody thinks kids would come up with this ex nihilo; to the extent that is does happen, it's obviously something they learned from adults.

And as said to Pizzabrat, the distinction as to whether its "academic success" or "a way of carrying oneself" is pretty much moot if the latter leads to the former.

[Nzinga, Seated]

It's not anti-intellectual, per se. It's "anti-different".


Right. Agreed. That is a universal thing. Most cultures have situations like that with their youth.

I maintain that there is a myth in the media that black people have a culture that is 'anti-education' and that children who are deemed smart are ostracised for 'acting white'.

I rail against this myth strongly, because I believe it is not good for us. It is an ugly lie.

I always enjoy your posts very much. I am afraid I cannot be swayed on this aspect of it though...I am certain that there exists a misconception that it is common in black culture (more so than in other cultures) to put eachother down as 'acting white' when we excell in school.

I maintain that this is indeed a misconception.

I will not beat a dead horse by repeating myself anymore. I apologize for being so repetitive already. It is just that dispelling myths about the black community has become a passion for me...it has dominated the poetry that I teach the children in my poetry group...because I am deathly afraid that the children will begin to buy the propaganda as I did. And that will be a very bad thing.

[furt]

As I said, it's one thing to argue that the phenomena is less common than some might imagine; it's a very different thing to say, as you did, that it is a complete myth.Apologies, HH. I was thinking of Nzinga, Seated.

[pizzabrat]

And as said to Pizzabrat, the distinction as to whether its "academic success" or "a way of carrying oneself" is pretty much moot if the latter leads to the former.True, in terms of outcome - my only point is that it's an especially insulting and counterproductive lie to claim that the cause is the former.

[Guinastasia]

But it was not my son's tonal dorkiness that earned him scorn from his own family, it was his word choice. As it was not my non-bassiness that got me called an oreo, but the fact that I didn't say things like "I was sover" when I meant "I was sober" or "Where you at?" when I meant "Where are you?"

That's really rotten of them to make your son cry. I'd have LOVED to have seen you go all medieval on their asses. People who bully kids-especially adults who should freaking know better-that's unforgivable.


I've always seen "acting white" as a really hideous insult, when you think about it. It's implying that being black means being ignorant, and well, stupid in some cases. And that's racist-no matter who's saying it.

Now, I'm white, so I don't know if I'm off or not, but that's how it always it came off to me.



And on a lighter note, change the expression from "where you at" to "where yinz at?" and you're speaking Pittsburghese!

:p

[Kimstu]

I doubt that there's more anti-intellectualism or anti-educationalism or whatever in the vast majority of black subcultures than there is in the vast majority of white ones. I know that as a dorky white kid in mostly-white schools, I routinely got teased about being a "brain", a "nerd", a "teacher's pet", etc. I wasn't complimented for getting answers right or getting good grades, but for the (very occasional) times when I blew off homework, broke rules, or sassed a teacher. Being smart and academically serious was not considered an admirable quality among my white peers (although to be fair, it was tolerated more willingly in kids who were less congenitally dorky than I was).

So if some black kids also put their classmates down for doing well in school, that doesn't necessarily mean that blacks in general are more anti-intellectual than whites in general. Even if their disparaging name for doing well in school is "acting white", that doesn't mean that blacks in general are more anti-intellectual than whites.

It only means that those black students who use "acting white" as a term of contempt for their academically-successful black peers underestimate the anti-intellectualism of white people. Trust me, those white peers of mine didn't feel that their racial background gave them any kind of a reason to care about school or to strive for good grades; on the contrary, they would have been downright insulted if it had been suggested to them that such behavior was a natural part of being white.

In fact, I think many white adults actually enjoy tut-tutting about the "acting white" thing, precisely because it allows them to believe that whites overall have more respect for education than blacks do ("because the black kids themselves acknowledge that respect for education is a 'white' thing, see, so it must be so!"). Those people obviously never met my white classmates.

[Nzinga, Seated]

Kimstu, that was a very informative post. I enjoyed reading it.

I wasn't complimented for getting answers right or getting good grades

I just want to confess that I didn't either! There wasn't a whole lot of that going on in my school from the other kids.

[furt]

True, in terms of outcome - my only point is that it's an especially insulting and counterproductive lie to claim that the cause is the former.Agreed.

[alive]

I have to disagree completely with the OP. The word "dorky" does not even come close to expressing the same thing as "acting white." Calling someone a dork does not challenge their racial authenticity. "Acting white" is a very different insult both in kind and in extremity. No comparison.

Also, I don't think there is a media consensus that "acting white" specifically means "academic success." The media does portray it as generally anti-intellectual... and it is. There are more ways to be anti-intellectual than hacking into the school computers to find everybody's grades, then insulting the ones with the highest grades. Insulting people who use a wider vocabulary is anti-intellectual (God forbid someone accidentally uses a word they learned reading a book in casual conversation). Insulting people who are willing to occasionally raise their hand in class is anti-intellectual (as is portraying all such people as "eager"). Insulting people who spend time studying and care about their grades is anti-intellectual. "Acting white", as an insult, is indeed highly anti-intellectual and nothing close to calling someone "dorky."

[DSeid]

Biggirl, as the prototypic ignorant White Boy, I have to chime in in that Nzinga has a point. Of course when you see it slap those committing the crime down hard. And make sure that people like me don't believe (as I had to no small degree before this thread) that there is a pervasive anti-intellectualism within poor urban Black culture that is not present in other similar economic groups so long as that is the case.

Still I have to admit that I do see some evidence of some anti-intellectualism in my small and anecdotal personal experience that is hard for me to completely dismiss. My community is mixed. There are a sizable minority of professional class Black families and a larger contigency of lower SES Black families and a mix of middle to professional class White families. Grade schools are fairly segregated by SES and the kids of the the professional class Black parents are in with a lot of middle to professional class White kids. At Middle School and High School levels they all go to school together. In short the professional class Black parent are universally scared by the fact that their kids will be put into that mix, (especially for their boys). Their fear is that the lower SES Black kids will play that "acting White" card and that their kids will be afraid to continue to achieve, will try to fit in with lower achieving kids who look like them. Many a neighbor has refused to send their intelligent high achieving Black children to the High School for exactly that reason and instead pull out to a private school (and then to Brown and better).

Is this just a local phenomenum or a function of SES alone? Or have they subscribed to a myth themselves?

In conversations with the owner a local Black barbershop (a very intellectual and civically active man) about this very subject he states clearly that he would make sure that no one was looking when he turned in his homework as a kid. Was his personal perception false? Or atypical?

Very seriously I ask, is there any degree of an internalizatiion of diminished expectations within the urban Black culture more so than for other subcultures of similar SES? Or is it all a myth? And if it is a myth why has it become so widely held even by professional class Blacks (at least those that I personally know)?

Please note that I was a nerd wannabe hanging out on the fringes of the ubernerds who were not complimented for getting the right answers or good grades but admired for knowing it all. Including baseball stats and Bob Dylan lyrics. Yeah we drooled over that first calculator that used reverse Polish notation! I just wasn't in their league.

[you with the face]

"Acting white", as an insult, is indeed highly anti-intellectual and nothing close to calling someone "dorky."

If "acting white" is special and unique in its anti-intellectualism then why do race-neutral words like "nerd" and "geek" even exist? Blacks don't hold a patent on ridiculing bookishness and social nonconformity, but that's what overemphasizing the "acting white" phenomenon would lead one to believe.

I think another issue is class. The lower your SES, the more apt you are to use "nerd" and "acting white" as an insult. If your kid goes to a school that has a significant chunk of low income kids, then you'll probably see a lot more of those kinds of taunts, regardless of race. It's probable that middle-class black kids are more likely to share classrooms with their lower-class counterparts, than middle-class white kids are. That sets them up for more ridicule. So bookish black kids get teased more often than white kids, but only because they are more likely to be surrounded by poorer kids.

And that's why America's focus on race to the exclusion of everything else makes people seem more different than what they really are. Anti-intellectualism is rampant in the poor. There are proportionately more poor blacks than poor whites. So what is actually a class issue appears to be ethnic, but only because are eyes are trained to see race before class.

[Biggirl]

Do you ever feel like you are in the middle of two different wars with the same name?

One the one hand is, for wont of a better phrase, the world. The world constantly tells black folk that they are dumb, criminal, lazy, profane, overly sexualized. . . ad nauseum. Even worse, they like to imply that it is something inherent in black people that makes them this way. This, of course, is horseshit. Blacks are no more or less inherently dumb, criminal, lazy or sexualized than other human of any color.

On the gripping hand there are black folk. The ones who want to excuse stupid behavior by claiming the behavior doesn't really happen or that it isn't our fault we engage in stupid behavior or sssshhhhh! Don't let whitey know about what we do!.


I fight both sides of this war with equal enthusiasm.

[Nzinga, Seated]

And if it is a myth why has it become so widely held even by professional class Blacks (at least those that I personally know)?



Dseid, I can only speak for the professional class blacks that I know...but a lot of the ones I know I think rather enjoy the idea that they had to overcome attacks by their peers and still they persevered. They don't see the myth as something that they need to rail against. The myth paints those that succeed as ones that "somehow were able to escape the crab in the bucket syndrome that those self-loathing blacks struggle with".

And I want to be clear about something, because despite my true desire to be very plain about it, I still seem to be misunderstood.

I am not saying it doesn't happen. Every single person who has seen it happen with their very own eyes can stop telling me that now. I know. I know you have seen it with you eyes. I don't doubt you. I have seen all sorts of horrible behavior by black people...unspeakable stuff that we sure do have to work on. I haven't witnessed this "I call you white actin' cause you are smart" stuff, but I have seen worse.

For everyone who has seen it happen with their own eyes, I don't doubt you.

The myth that I feel desparately needs debunking is the myth that it is a staple of black culture that happens in the black community more so than in any other community. I know that every culture has its nerds that are teased for being so. I don't dispute that.

[alive]

The myth that I feel desparately needs debunking is the myth that it is a staple of black culture that happens in the black community more so than in any other community. I know that every culture has its nerds that are teased for being so. I don't dispute that.


And, of course, calling someone a nerd challenges their very racial authenticity and ostracizes them from their race.

You must be thinking of some definition of "nerd" I am unaware of.

Where I'm from, "nerd" is a very mild insult, and people will even call themselves nerds somewhat proudly. After all, the "nerds" are the ones the rest of us will probably be asking for jobs someday.

When is the last time you heard a black student describe themself proudly as being a race traitor?


"Acting white" is a vastly more hurtful insult, attacking racial identity, which "nerd" does not, and that alone makes it a much stronger force for anti-intellectualism. There really isn't a similarly powerful racially-neutral insult that could be used to discourage academic success.


The myth that needs to be debunked is that there is anything wrong with, for example, learning a wide vocabulary or raising your hand in class.

Even in the OP, describing the "eagerness" to raise one's hand gave a very bad vibe.

Why can't a black student raise their hand simply because it is part of the class and they want to participate and learn? Do you necessarily have to present them as sitting there eager to show off? I think presenting them like that is part of the problem, and almost is an attempt to justify insulting them.

[Nzinga, Seated]

And, of course, calling someone a nerd challenges their very racial authenticity and ostracizes them from their race.

It is not a nice thing to claim someone is acting white. I have no idea what I wrote that makes you think that I think it is ok to challenge anyone's racial authenticity and ostracize them from their race. I am seriously scratching my head over that.

It is true that people at my school did get told they were "acting white" sometimes. Usually it was a style of speech, (not proper English, just a certain style), or wearing their clothing "too tight" in the minds of black kids that favored a style of baggier clothing. There were other things that would get someone called 'acting white' too. Academic success was not one of those things. Plenty of cool ass kids were smart, and they didn't get called "whitey".

The ones who did say that certain kids were "acting white" were wrong for saying that. Completely wrong for saying that at all. But I never noticed that they said it because the children were smart.

[pizzabrat]

alive, nobody here is apologizing for the term. Everything you've said goes without saying, which is why no one felt the need to say it.

[you with the face]

On the gripping hand there are black folk. The ones who want to excuse stupid behavior by claiming the behavior doesn't really happen or that it isn't our fault we engage in stupid behavior or sssshhhhh! Don't let whitey know about what we do!

I don't see anyone is this thread doing that, to be honest. The point of the OP is not to say that anti-intellectualism doesn't exist in the black community. It's to challenge the meme that blacks are extra special in that regard because they happen to call nerds and geeks (or dorks, if you prefer) "whitey". This name-calling is harmful and wrong and should not be excused, and no one is saying otherwise.

[Biggirl]

I don't see anyone is this thread doing that, to be honest. The point of the OP is not to say that anti-intellectualism doesn't exist in the black community. It's to challenge the meme that blacks are extra special in that regard because they happen to call nerds and geeks (or dorks, if you prefer) "whitey". This name-calling is harmful and wrong and should not be excused, and no one is saying otherwise.
I do see somebody who tried to do exactly this in this thread, namely Nzinga. He/she (sorry) has since changed from "It's a myth that black people do this" to "It's a myth that black people do this more often than white people."

Nzinga even went so far as to say that when this very thing happened to my daughter, I should have questioned my daughter about how she relates to black people-- as if it was my daughter's fault for falling for the myth that doesn't ever really happen.

[you with the face]

Nzinga even went so far as to say that when this very thing happened to my daughter, I should have questioned my daughter about how she relates to black people-- as if it was my daughter's fault for falling for the myth that doesn't ever really happen.

I'm confused, though. Didn't you say her grades appeared to be unrelated to the flak she took from her peers? Wouldn't that suggest that it wasn't so much her intelligence that was painting a bullseye on her back, but something else?

My niece has been accused of "acting white", too. She's a good student who gets excellent grades and is not the type to hold back in class, and it would be easy to think that this is why she gets teased sometimes. But honestly I don't think that's why she gets called "whitey". I think it's because she speaks differently (and not necessarily better) than the other kids. She has the habit of talking fast, saying "like" a lot, and exclaiming ohmygod! at the drop of a dime. To hear her speak without seeing her, you'd think she was the stereotypical white teenybopper who dances like Carlton on the Fresh Prince of Bel Air. Nothing wrong with that at all, but it does make her different. It would be inaccurate to say that the only thing that sets her apart from her tormenters is her dedication to good grades and subject-verb agreement.

Not that this has to be the case with your daughter, Biggirl, but I think what happens a lot of time is that people attribute the reasons they got teased to good attributes (like intelligence) because it's more painful or more difficult to think other factors are behind their ostracism. Kind of like the "le sigh, they hate me because I'm beautiful" syndrome. Yes, a lot of time the smart kid gets picked on because he is smart and likes "smart" things. But a lot of time, the smart kids gets picked on because he doesn't know how to blend in with the rest of the hoi polloi. It happens to slow kids, too. They just don't get called "whitey". They get their own special insults.

[HazelNutCoffee]

The myth that I feel desparately needs debunking is the myth that it is a staple of black culture that happens in the black community more so than in any other community. I know that every culture has its nerds that are teased for being so. I don't dispute that.
Being an Asian American nerd is not going to get you called "white" amongst your peers. You might get get called a twinkie or a banana (Asian equivalent of oreo) if you dress a certain way (for girls, if you dress in a way that other people deem "slutty"), hang out with mostly white people, or otherwise behave like you are not particularly invested in being "Asian." Nerds may get teased, but they're not associated with being white.

[Argent Towers]

Not that this has to be the case with your daughter, Biggirl, but I think what happens a lot of time is that people attribute the reasons they got teased to good attributes (like intelligence) because it's more painful or more difficult to think other factors are behind their ostracism. Kind of like the "le sigh, they hate me because I'm beautiful" syndrome. Yes, a lot of time the smart kid gets picked on because he is smart and likes "smart" things. But a lot of time, the smart kids gets picked on because he doesn't know how to blend in with the rest of the hoi polloi. It happens to slow kids, too. They just don't get called "whitey". They get their own special insults.

Yes.

I think this is the answer, right here. You don't get teased for being smart, you get teased for being a dork. In my experience, kids who aced everything and raised their hands for all the answers - even ones who had glasses! - did not get teased if they were also perceived as "cool," a status including factors such as social confidence, good looks, athleticism, humor, edginess, or some combination of them. Kids who didn't have any of these things, were "weird" in some outwardly noticeable way, and also lacked the confidence to stand up for themselves, got teased, sometimes (mostly joked about behind their backs, to be honest.)

[DSeid]

Dseid, I can only speak for the professional class blacks that I know...but a lot of the ones I know I think rather enjoy the idea that they had to overcome attacks by their peers and still they persevered. My Dad was proud of having suceeded out of extreme poverty to successful business owner with kids who went to law, med and grad school. I even resented that I had no obstacles to overcome (in my young adulthood). But know that my Dad didn't want to have the same obstacles to overcome that he had. Do your professional freinds want to have their kids exposed to the same challenges so that they too can enjoy overcoming them?The myth that I feel desparately needs debunking is the myth that it is a staple of black culture that happens in the black community more so than in any other community. I know that every culture has its nerds that are teased for being so. I don't dispute that.And clearly some cultures tease nerds with more uniformity and more viciousness than others. As a Jewish kid in a school with a sizable Jewish minority nerds were not often teased for being smart. For lots of other reasons but never for being smart. (Kids are generally teased for two reasons: they look or act different in some way, any way; and they react to teasing in someway that "amuses" the bully.) My father was clear that in his poor generation educational achievement was valued. He knew how to fight and did, but even his group of toughs respected the good students. The case for Asian Americans has just been made. Clearly there are different degrees of Poindexter antipathy in various subcultures, even at the same SES. Where does poor urban Black culture fall in that spectrum? I do not know. Probably less pervasively than mainstream media would portray it, but obviously more than some other subcultures.

[Nzinga, Seated]

but obviously more than some other subcultures.

Having had grown up as a poor, urban black; I have to disagree.

[Nzinga, Seated]

I do see somebody who tried to do exactly this in this thread, namely Nzinga. He/she (sorry) has since changed from "It's a myth that black people do this" to "It's a myth that black people do this more often than white people."


That is an outright lie. Wow. I am astonished that you just claimed that I changed my position. I am astonished because I actually have the audacity to consider myself something of a Black Myth Buster; so I am pretty clear about my stance on these matters.

Why would anyone in their right mind claim that this never, ever happens? That would make blacks completely different and alien to every other race and culture on the planet, if it never, ever happened.

I stated clearly from the beginning that I am railing against the myth that it is a staple of black culture! And that, by very definition, means that people are pretending that it happens more in black culture than in white culture, or any other.

Please never put you words in my mouth again. They taste bitter and disgusting.

[DSeid]

Oh c'mon. The urban poor Black subculture has less anti-intellectualism than any other? I'm not claiming that it has more than average or less, just that it is somewhere on the spectrum, somewhere between the extreme painted by mainstream media and say, particular poor Asian immigrant communities. Now of course these are hard to quantify things but it is silly to say that all subcultures are the same. And it is just as presumptuous for you to claim knowledge of how another poor subculture treats its nerds as it would be for me to presume knowledge of how poor Black subculture treats its nerds.

At least I know that I don't know.

[Nzinga, Seated]

[QUOTE=DSeid]Oh c'mon. The urban poor Black subculture has less anti-intellectualism than any other? QUOTE]

My apologies. I had promised myself that my passion for the topic would not prevent me from communicating clearly. I hate that I allow emotions to come into play.

What I meant to say was that as someone from poor, black America...I didn't ever notice that we called it acting white when someone was smart or excelled in school. I never saw it happen. Not once. Now, I know that it has happened. But since I never saw it happen, I do not believe that it happens more with blacks than it would with whites or any other culture.

That is to say, I know that there are things about our very culture that is unique to black culture, (not exclusively unique. I realize I have to be super specific here.)
I know that there are things about our culture that is unique to us...but this "we don't like you because you are smart. Stop actin' white" thing is not an epidemic in our culture. Plain and simple. I deny the media myth that this is something that happens regularly.

If I ever said that I don't think it happens at all, ever, not once to a black child ever; then I regret saying that.

[Chief Pedant]

It seems finally official that the mainstream media (and mainstream American) line is that black American youth insult each other for being academically successful by saying they're "acting white". Thus, I'll do my part to add a voice of dissension to misinterpretation.

"White", in this usage, doesn't mean academically successful - it means dorky. Now dorkiness can obviously overlap with academic success (which is why this confusion arose) - eagerness to raise one's hand every time the teacher asks a question or eschewing transient slang in favor of a practical, lifetime vocabulary are both dorky but will help your grades. But they're still not synonymous, and a person can get straight A's without being attracting a "dork" or "white" label.

This explanation is not an endorsement of the term. It's clearly racist in a straightforward way. And the idea that being cool is a key component of a black identity is often destructive. But it's needlessly insulting (and embarrassingly self-congratulatory on the part of whites who are quick to believe that incorrect interpretation) to imply that blacks are uniquely anti-intellectual to the extent of having our own put-down specifically for people who do well academically.

I do not have first-hand experience with this particular term; my high school years were in the 70's at a school that was about 50% black. In general the divisions were between those who performed well academically and those who did not, regardless of skin color or background. Those of us who excelled academically, black, white or whatever, were also bright enough to be uninterested in the opinions of poor performers.

I have only seen references to the "acting white" issue used in the mainstream media as an attempt to help provide explanation for the enormous gap between the academic performances of blacks and most other population groups, including asians and whites. There is a substantial interest in advancing explanations for this gap that do not involve any suggestion of inherent or inherited limitations in ability. It is in that spirit that this particular explanation is seized upon and promoted.

[alive]

I do not believe that it happens more with blacks than it would with whites or any other culture.


Are you deliberately missing the point?


Everyone here agrees that "acting white" is a far more hurtful insult than "nerd." Nerd is so mild that I have heard many people describe themselves proudly as nerds. Nobody describes themselves proudly as a race traitor.


When kids get torn to shreds for using a big word they read in a book (their fault for accidentally letting it slip in, learning words is dangerous) in casual conversation or are too intimidated to raise their hand in class (their fault for being "eager") or reveal that they care about homework and grades, that is a serious problem. And yes, it is a bigger problem for black students in large part because there is no comparably powerful race-neutral insult. Nobody is saying black people are inherently more anti-intellectual, but if their anti-intellectualism takes a much more vicious form then naturally it will be, and is, more prevalent. If one group ostracizes you from your own race, and the other just calls you a mild name like nerd, of course there is a difference in anti-intellectualism.


I am positive you are aware of the major differences, yet you continue to act as though "acting white" is the same thing as "nerd" or "dork." They attack different things, with different levels of viciousness. They aren't even close to the same thing, and I think you know that.

[Nzinga, Seated]

Alive, I promise you I have no idea what you are talking about right now. I don't go around deliberately missing points.

I'm afraid I am unable to understand how anything that I said really relates to anything you just said.

I am just going to gracefully bow out now... because I do believe I am failing to communicate my point properly. I do still feel strongly about this. Maybe I need to brush up on how to express it better. Others here are a bit better at expressing the main point that I am trying to make, and I respect their posts a great deal. I think I will learn from them a bit before I even attempt to address this issue on this board again.

[Biggirl]

.

Not that this has to be the case with your daughter, Biggirl, but I think what happens a lot of time is that people attribute the reasons they got teased to good attributes (like intelligence) because it's more painful or more difficult to think other factors are behind their ostracism. Kind of like the "le sigh, they hate me because I'm beautiful" syndrome. Yes, a lot of time the smart kid gets picked on because he is smart and likes "smart" things. But a lot of time, the smart kids gets picked on because he doesn't know how to blend in with the rest of the hoi polloi. It happens to slow kids, too. They just don't get called "whitey". They get their own special insults.

Well now, that's a bunch of blame the victim poppycock, if you ask me. Do you think the children teasing my daughter were calling her "Professor Whitey" because she smoked a pipe and wore sweaters with leather patches at the elbow? No, she was called Professor Whitey because she was perceived as being smart.

But you are right about one thing-- the children who are perceived as stupid don't get called 'whitey' when they get teased. Think about that.

[Biggirl]

Oh-- almost forgot.

My daughter did look at herself and question why she was getting teased. She came to the conclusion that it was because of her grades and did things to remedy the situation. The steps she used to try to fit in better with her peers was just as stupid and destructive as her peers' teasing.

[tomndebb]

But you are right about one thing-- the children who are perceived as stupid don't get called 'whitey' when they get teased. Think about that.Just asa point of information: what was the rough proportion of black and white (and other) populations in her school or her class. (This relates to something posted earlier.)

[Biggirl]

Just asa point of information: what was the rough proportion of black and white (and other) populations in her school or her class. (This relates to something posted earlier.)

According to this it's 5% white, 59% black, 34% Hispanic and 3% Asian now. (http://www.insideschools.org/fs/school_profile.php?id=395) I don't think it's changed much in the 10 or so years since my children attended.

[Biggirl]

According to this it's 5% white, 59% black, 34% Hispanic and 3% Asian now. (http://www.insideschools.org/fs/school_profile.php?id=395) I don't think it's changed much in the 10 or so years since my children attended.
Too late to edit:

On further thought: My kids where in the gifted program where the classes were about 40% white, 40% black and 20% Hispanic.

[DSeid]

On further thought: My kids where in the gifted program where the classes were about 40% white, 40% black and 20% Hispanic.
What none of the Asians got in? :)

Thoughts upon review of this thread:

The op's claim that "acting White" does not mean exclusively being a good student seems justified, and pizzabrat's and Nzinga's protestation that anti-intellectualism is not a "staple" of urban poor Black culture, any moreso than in an average multigenerationally poor White community seems very likely true in the main. And the media's implication that it is was the point of the op, I think.

And no one defends the use of the phrase, as if any subclass gets to decide what is authentically "Black" or especially the implication that "acting ghetto" would somehow be more truely "Black."

Yet there is some anti-intellectualism and it greatly hurts when it occurs. And I'd suspect that it hurts smart poor Black kids differently than it hurts a smart poor White kid, especially when it gets lumped in with some racial implications. Hell, I'd suspect that it hurts well off Black kids differently than it hurts White kids.

Can those thoughts gain a consensus?

[monstro]

Too late to edit:

On further thought: My kids where in the gifted program where the classes were about 40% white, 40% black and 20% Hispanic.

Just curious...were the kids who were teasing her in the gifted program?

It may have been that because she was seen associating with white kids, in addition to speaking differently and excelling academically, she became "white" in the bullies' eyes. Take away the white peers and maybe she would have been labeled something else. Not excusing them, of course, but maybe that explains why she still continued to get teased even after her grades dropped.

Kids are stupid, though. All throughout seventh grade my nickname was Carol Burnette? Why? Because one day a classmate saw me scratch my lower back, and it reminded him of the cartoon janitor at the end of the Carol Burnette Show. And then when I ran for student council, my nickname became Hosea Williams (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hosea_Williams), who was running for public office at that time (he was the very definition of "a fringe" candidate). So within the span of a year, I went from being a middle-aged white woman to an old black man. It's frickin' hilarious in retrospect, but at the time it really hurt.

[Biggirl]

Just curious...were the kids who were teasing her in the gifted program?

It may have been that because she was seen associating with white kids, in addition to speaking differently and excelling academically, she became "white" in the bullies' eyes. Take away the white peers and maybe she would have been labeled something else. Not excusing them, of course, but maybe that explains why she still continued to get teased even after her grades dropped.

Kids are stupid, though. All throughout seventh grade my nickname was Carol Burnette? Why? Because one day a classmate saw me scratch my lower back, and it reminded him of the cartoon janitor at the end of the Carol Burnette Show. And then when I ran for student council, my nickname became Hosea Williams (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hosea_Williams), who was running for public office at that time (he was the very definition of "a fringe" candidate). So within the span of a year, I went from being a middle-aged white woman to an old black man. It's frickin' hilarious in retrospect, but at the time it really hurt.


No, this was happening at lunch and gym and not during class time.


The teasing my son endured just once at the hands of his family upset me, personally, far more than the teasing my daughter got at school. My son did not get teased at school-- at all. And he was (and is a proud nerd. He wears a t-shirt that shows a nerdy-type brandishing a lightsaber that says "Welcome to the Dorkside)

For the record: They are twins and went to the same class until middle school.

[you with the face]

Well now, that's a bunch of blame the victim poppycock, if you ask me. Do you think the children teasing my daughter were calling her "Professor Whitey" because she smoked a pipe and wore sweaters with leather patches at the elbow? No, she was called Professor Whitey because she was perceived as being smart.

All I'm saying is that there could me more to it than that. It very well could be that she is called whitey for being smart. It could also have to do with other things, sorta like my niece. You and your daughter would be in a better position of knowing than I would. Since you said her grades didn't seem to have anything to do with the name-calling, it's not a forgone conclusion to me. That's all. Not trying to "blame the victim" because even if she's made fun of for talking like Steve Urkle, she'd still qualify as a victim.

But you are right about one thing-- the children who are perceived as stupid don't get called 'whitey' when they get teased. Think about that.

Actually, I've seen stupid/average kids get their black cards revoked for acting in certain ways. It always seems to come back to their speech and slang and dress. When I said slow dorks get their own special insults, I was thinking more along the lines of "retard". Nerdy dorks* get called "whitey". Nerdy dorkishness =! smart.

Is it a problem that nerdy dorks get called white? Hell yes. Are blacks unique in making fun of nerdy dorks? No.


*Not that I think your daughter is a nerdy dork.

[CanvasShoes]

I agree very much with [b]....snip............

It really annoys me when black people think that in order to "be black" you have to talk like an idiot.


Yeah, there was big fun at Biggirl's daddy's house that day.
It's always confused me why so many young (well with the exception of Al Sharpton who's definitely old enough to know better) black people consider ebonics or AAVE (I'm guessing that's African American Vernicular English?) to be "authentically black" or "being black".

Please excuse my ignorance on this, but wouldn't actual African or Jamaican etc., be the true "authentic" black language? Black people from my generation and my parent's generation absolutely worshipped education. Again, I apologize for not understanding the cultural reasoning behind today's youths' insistance upon this type of speech, but how did this idea come into being? That is, that only ignorant poor english is "authentically black"?

My HS (70s) had a smallish number of black students. Not due to any snootiness or that it was hard to get into or anything, we just have a much smaller number of black people in Alaska per capita. Almost without fail those black students were the creme de la creme of the HS hierarchy. And not just in sports either, there were several eggheads (our name for nerdy smart types, but it was used across the board and was based upon their academics, not their skin color).

If education and proper english = bad and non-authentic ethnicity, wouldn't that mean that all of us are not authentically who our respective races would have us be? That is, unless we make up our own jargon?

[Biggirl]

It's always confused me why so many young (well with the exception of Al Sharpton who's definitely old enough to know better) black people consider ebonics or AAVE (I'm guessing that's African American Vernicular English?) to be "authentically black" or "being black".

AAVE isn't slang or jargon. It is a dialect. It is the dialect spoken by most black Americans, even us 'whitey' sounding ones. One of it's most distinctive hallmarks-- the use of the word 'be' to mark aspect-- is quite useful and I use it all the time. It is also the most mocked and misunderstood.


But that's a completely different thread.

[CanvasShoes]

AAVE isn't slang or jargon. It is a dialect. It is the dialect spoken by most black Americans, even us 'whitey' sounding ones. One of it's most distinctive hallmarks-- the use of the word 'be' to mark aspect-- is quite useful and I use it all the time. It is also the most mocked and misunderstood.


But that's a completely different thread.
Okay, so that's not the same thing as the slang that the kids speak nowadays then?

Also, after I posted, I'd read someone else's post where they mention "poor white" vernacular such as "ain't got none" and so on. It made me remember my ex-boyfriend's complaints that I spoke "stuck up". Though he's not from the poor south area, he's from Minn., but did have a limited and slang-y type vocabulary.

I could be way off base, but I've long thought that the problem was not at all caused by race, but more economically based.

[you with the face]

Please excuse my ignorance on this, but wouldn't actual African or Jamaican etc., be the true "authentic" black language?

No. First off, "African" is not a language. Secondly, Jamaician patois is on equal footing with AAVE, since both are English dialects created by the descendants of slaves. African-Americans are a ethnic group separate from others.

As for the "today's youths' insistance upon this type of speech" observation, what makes you think this kind of conformity is a new thing? When you were coming up, the black kids you were exposed to were probably from a different class pool than the kids that you associate with "bad English" today. There's nothing new going on; you just have more exposure to an underclass that you didn't before.

[CanvasShoes]

No. First off, "African" is not a language. Secondly, Jamaician patois is on equal footing with AAVE, since both are English dialects created by the descendants of slaves. African-Americans are a ethnic group separate from others.

As for the "today's youths' insistance upon this type of speech" observation, what makes you think this kind of conformity is a new thing? When you were coming up, the black kids you were exposed to were probably from a different class pool than the kids that you associate with "bad English" today. There's nothing new going on; you just have more exposure to an underclass that you didn't before.
Sorry on the first, of course I was oversimplifying. Let me clarify, African Americans, wouldn't it be truly authentic if they spoke the language of the region from which their ancestors came?

As to your second thought. Where did I say I thought it was new, or that I approved of other "slang" but not black youth slang? I don't find it the slang from "my" race, any more palatable than that of ebonics (is that the correct name?). But I don't see users of other slang insisting that IT is what makes them authentic whatever race they might be.


Or to simplify, I don't understand the belief that "kno-it-ime-sain = true authentic blackness", nor do I see a comparable attitude among other races who use slang.
This doesn't mean it's not there, it just doesn't seem to be as prominent or insistant.

[you with the face]

Sorry on the first, of course I was oversimplifying. Let me clarify, African Americans, wouldn't it be truly authentic if they spoke the language of the region from which their ancestors came?

Most African-Americans don't know where their African ancestors came from, linguistically speaking. But the most important thing to remember is that A-A's became English speaking Americans as soon as they were brought over here. That's what their ancestors spoke, so that's what they speak. "Authenticity" would not be based on anything other than that.

As to your second thought. Where did I say I thought it was new, or that I approved of other "slang" but not black youth slang?

I didn't say you approved of non-black slang, and I have no idea where you got that from.

By talking about the black folks you went to school with and then talking about how different they were from "youth today", it seemed like you comparing two apple and orange groups. Class differences likely exist.

I don't find it the slang from "my" race, any more palatable than that of ebonics (is that the correct name?). But I don't see users of other slang insisting that IT is what makes them authentic whatever race they might be.

Didn't you just mention your ex-boyfriend calling you stuck up for not using regional dialectic speech? There's no real difference between him and some black kid in the hood guffawing because another kid talks like a WASP. The only real difference is that instead of saying "stuck up", the black kid will accuse the other one of "acting white". But both are reactions to someone seen as being high fallutin' and different.

A rose by any other name smells the same to me, so I don't see why blacks should be treated as novelties with respect to this.

[CanvasShoes]

Most African-Americans don't know where their African ancestors came from, linguistically speaking. But the most important thing to remember is that A-A's became English speaking Americans as soon as they were brought over here. That's what their ancestors spoke, so that's what they speak. "Authenticity" would not be based on anything other than that.
But slavery wouldn't be "authentic", so one would think that they'd eschew the slangy poor "slave english" (not sure the correct term for it would be) based upon its heinous origins. I thought that that was why black people of my parent's generation were SO enamored of proper education, because it went so far away from the poorly educated history of their enslaved ancestors.

I know I don't understand the culture, but I don't get why they'd want to embrace poor education and poor speech, since that was part of what being a slave entailed. I'd think that most black people would want to stay as far away from anything that smacked of slavery as possible. I guess that's the difference I see in just "slang" as opposed to specific types of black youth slang.


I didn't say you approved of non-black slang, and I have no idea where you got that from. I guess just your comment on the black "underclass". That term seems a bit loaded to me, but that's JUST me. I don't consider black youth, even those in the ghetto as being "underclassed". The term has a negative connotation to me. So that's where I got that you were thinking I disapproved.

By talking about the black folks you went to school with and then talking about how different they were from "youth today", it seemed like you comparing two apple and orange groups. Class differences likely exist.
Yes, I think I did mention that I thought it was more class than skin color related. I wasn't comparing apples and oranges though, I was speaking of what the parents of the black kids of my day believed in, and obviously fostered in their children. None of these kids were rich, just average, like me.

Didn't you just mention your ex-boyfriend calling you stuck up for not using regional dialectic speech? There's no real difference between him and some black kid in the hood guffawing because another kid talks like a WASP. The only real difference is that instead of saying "stuck up", the black kid will accuse the other one of "acting white". But both are reactions to someone seen as being high fallutin' and different. Well, I'm not from Minn. only he was...But Okay, I sortof agree. With the difference that my boyfriend didn't accuse me of not being an authentic white person. I guess that's the point that's "stickin' in my craw". :)

A rose by any other name smells the same to me, so I don't see why blacks should be treated as novelties with respect to this.
I agree, again with the difference pf the idea that some have that slang vs no slang or worse those with a proper way of speaking being considered "not authentic".

[you with the face]

But slavery wouldn't be "authentic", so one would think that they'd eschew the slangy poor "slave english" (not sure the correct term for it would be) based upon its heinous origins.

What? I have no idea what you are saying. If it wasn't for slavery, there'd be no A-A ethnic group, so in that sense, it is quite "authentic" (whatever that means). It doesn't matter that AAVE was born out of slavery. Value judgements about the heinousness of its origins don't matter, either. People don't suddenly start speaking another dialect just because their mother dialect came out of oppression.

I thought that that was why black people of my parent's generation were SO enamored of proper education, because it went so far away from the poorly educated history of their enslaved ancestors.

Education leads to economic power and wealth. That's why ALL people value education. I don't think black folks of your parent's era were thinking "I need to go to school so I won't be ignorant like my great grand daddy". It was the American Dream that motivated them, just like it did everyone else.

I guess just your comment on the black "underclass". That term seems a bit loaded to me, but that's JUST me. I don't consider black youth, even those in the ghetto as being "underclassed". The term has a negative connotation to me. So that's where I got that you were thinking I disapproved.

I meant "underclass" in terms of SES status. When you talk about black people, you need to be aware that, just like in all groups, there's more to meets the eye than skin color. It seems that when you talk about blacks, you're not making the same kind of distinctions you'd make if you were talking about whites. So yeah, the blacks you went to school with in Alaska are likely not going to be comparable to low-income urban kids who pick on Biggirl's daughter. Class and regional differences should not be overlooked.

Well, I'm not from Minn. only he was...But Okay, I sortof agree. With the difference that my boyfriend didn't accuse me of not being an authentic white person. I guess that's the point that's "stickin' in my craw". :)

It wouldn't make sense for your boyfriend to ascribe your behavior to being white, because, being part of the majority race himself, he doesn't see it as a racial thing. Put him in a country where he's a stigmatized minority, and he'd likely replace "stuck up" with "acting <insert majority race>".

[pizzabrat]

What's with this hijack? Is there any evidence of a prescriptive campaign, official or otherwise, for AAVE amongst blacks?
EDIT: Oh, nevermind, I get what you're talking about.

[H3Knuckles]

The way someone speaks is a part dorkiness. There's a cool way of speaking (an affected bassiness with a barking cadence and heavy, up-to-the-second slang, frex), and an uncool way (a nasal intonation with relatively precise enunciation and a moderate pace, perhaps).

I have nothing to add to the main topic of discussion, I just wanted to comment on how clever that one post was. Writing your explanations of the different ways in such a manner that they would read how you're describing it? Well done.

That's all I've got. I just wanted to say "neat."

[Hippy Hollow]

I was struck upthread by a comment... the use of Steve Urkel as an insult. I was called "Urkel" for being dorky once or twice. I think as soon as there was a Black nerd character out there, that became a pretty popular dis.

I was talking about this thread with an Indian American friend a few days back. She noted, and I agreed, that America has a pretty anti-intellectual streak. Look at our leaders. How else does one explain George W. Bush's success? He certainly didn't aim to come across as intelligent. In fact, as a politician in this country, your ability to be folksy and connect with the common man are probably more important than one's academic credentials...

...which is to say, with the exception of recent immigrants - which makes sense, considering the Immigration Act of 1965 ensures that most immigrants to the US are well-educated, high-achieving folks. And there is something to be said about the fact than in this country, education can take a person pretty far. It's not surprising that recent immigrants are off the charts obsessed with their kids doing well in school.

One thing that's interesting is how the immigrant advantage diminishes by the third generation - that is, the grandchildren of the immigrants, which is Xue Lan Rong and Frank Brown's focus in their research. The hypothesis is that by the third or later generation, the descendants of Kenyan, Korean, or Argentinian immigrants are well assimilated into American society. The immigrant "striving" perspective is considerably muted at this time. Those kids are less likely to hear stories of how Grandma/pa sacrificed so much to come to America.

I might have gone a little OT here, but I'm writing a dissertation... I find it difficult to talk about anything else but my own research, but I just wanted to throw that out there. If I followed Nginza's point, agreeing that there's a pretty strong anti-intellectual streak in American society, period, lends credence to her argument.

[red child]

Speaking as a 19 year old inner city black youth, probably the only one on this board...allow me to retort. In my personal experience, being intelligent does NOT equate to acting white. Nobody I know, including myself, because to be honest, lord knows I can't stand an oreo, has used the term in this context.

I went to an 100% black public grammar school in a bad neighbordhood on the far far south side of Chicago (the wild hundreds if on the offhand chance anybody is familiar with that). I got straight A's. Never got one bad conduct mark. Sure, I got called a smarty arty and a goody two shoes, but never was accused of acting white.

Then I went to a majority black public high school on Chicago's west side. I kept good grades. I got a 32 on the ACT (first time, bullshit you not). I got a full ride scholarship thanks to that. The smarty arty comments dissappeared. People on the block actually encouraged my scholastic endeavors.

Never once in my life have I been accused of being an oreo. For the first 12 years of my life I had only seen white people on TV, how could I be? Yes, I'm book smart. But believe me, I have so many stereotypically black behaviors it's ridiculous. I have an excellent grasp of the English language...when I need to. But when I'm outside of work or maybe a classroom? Yeah, I say "aks" and "skrimps" and "finna" and don't pronounce my E's and R's, just because that's my natural dialect. I roll my eyes and snap my neck when I argue. I play my music too loud and put 22 inch rims on my car. I keep my TV on BET and use nigga and bitch interchangably and without discrimination with male and female. I wore a "ghetto prom dress" like the ones you get in emails. All of my boyfriends' pants were too big and had some kind of gang and/or drug affiliation. I get people to buy me juice on their food stamp cards.


So, why is it that I have never been called whitewashed? I mean, I'm smart right? See, acting white is a multifaceted term. It is how you speak, act, dress, how many white friends you have, and how you REALLY feel about other blacks. This is a package deal. All must apply. You can skateboard and still "act black". You can listen to rock music and still "act black". I used to have a Backstreet Boys addiction myself. But if you're sitting at a table with Becky and Amy talkin bout "Ohmigod today in Hollister this total welfare queen spilled coke on my Hermes scarf blahblahblah!" and purposely avoiding all things deemed black, then...you may be an oreo. Trust me, there are a million and one airhead idiots that act white. Brains have nothing to do with it. At all. I think the only people that assert this are white people who have no interaction with the antagonizing party of black people, only the "oreos"; and black people who really ARE whitewashed and really DON'T

[red child]

identify with black people. But this is all my own personal conjecture.

(my above post got cut off, sorry.)

[tomndebb]

I went to an 100% black public grammar school . . . .

Then I went to a majority black public high school on Chicago's west side.The Fryer study to which I linked very early in this thread made the point that the insult "acting white" appears to be limited, specifically, to public schools with rather evenly mixed populations. This was true in the Shaker Heights schools, but, clearly, not in yours.

[Kimstu]

I wore a "ghetto prom dress" like the ones you get in emails.

Can somebody explain to me what this is? I'd never heard of it before (see, I told you I was congenitally dorky), and I've just looked through 5 pages of Google hits on "ghetto prom dress" without seeing any actual representation of anything that could reasonably be any kind of prom dress.

(I did find among those links some porn shots of naked ladies, but I assume that is not what the term "ghetto prom dress" actually means, unless red child went to a really interesting prom.)

[Askia]

Kimstu: This is one of those "black thangs": it is high sport among American blacks to send e-mail forwards featuring pictures of ghetto-fabulousness. It can be something as simple as the "when they were young" pictures of black celebrities as kids to pimped out rides to ghetto wedding photos. it's like that episode of My Name Is Earl where Joy and Crab Man got married, only, y'know, not fiction.

I don't know where you might find these things on the web, cuz I laugh and delete mine after I get 'em. I can assure you they do exist.

You haven't lived until you've seen the ghetto girl with the pregnant prom dress with the stomach midriff cut out of it to maximize sex appeal....

Oh, wait... here they are. My google-fu is greater than yours...

http://www.byroncrawford.com/2005/05/ghetto_prom_pic.html

[Askia]

I say "finna" and "fixin". When I'm getting really carried away, I say "fitna". Oh, I can soooooo tell you grew up over here in Northwest Atlanta. LOL!

[Biggirl]

http://www.byroncrawford.com/2005/05/ghetto_prom_pic.html

Sshhhhh! Don't go telling the white folk what us black folk be doing!








See how useful that 'be' is? It doesn't mean what we do nor what we've done. It means what we do, have done and continue to do.

[Hippy Hollow]

http://www.byroncrawford.com/2005/05/ghetto_prom_pic.html
oh, damn.

[Askia]

I arrived all late to the conversation just in time to kill another thread with visually disturbing contribution.

[you with the face]

I arrived all late...

CP time strikes again.

[Askia]

Lol!

[whole bean]

Sshhhhh! See how useful that 'be' is? It doesn't mean what we do nor what we've done. It means what we do, have done and continue to do.
how is that any different than "do"?

[whole bean]

lord knows I can't stand an oreo

Why not? How is this any different than someone saying, "lord knows I can't stand a wigger."?

[Biggirl]

how is that any different than "do"?
Do needs to be modified to convey the meaning of 'be doing". Do is present tense. Be doing is a continuous action-- meaning past, present and into the future.

Wiki's explanation: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_American_Vernacular_English)
Aspect marking

The most distinguishing feature of AAVE is the use of forms of be to mark aspect in verb phrases. The use or lack of a form of be can indicate whether the performance of the verb is of a habitual nature. In SAE, this can be expressed only using adverbs such as usually. It is disputed whether the use of the verb "to be" to indicate a habitual status or action in AAVE has its roots in various West African languages.

[whole bean]

Do needs to be modified to convey the meaning of 'be doing". Do is present tense. Be doing is a continuous action-- meaning past, present and into the future.

Wiki's explanation: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_American_Vernacular_English)
Aspect marking

The most distinguishing feature of AAVE is the use of forms of be to mark aspect in verb phrases. The use or lack of a form of be can indicate whether the performance of the verb is of a habitual nature. In SAE, this can be expressed only using adverbs such as usually. It is disputed whether the use of the verb "to be" to indicate a habitual status or action in AAVE has its roots in various West African languages.
thanks

[whole bean]

Do needs to be modified to convey the meaning of 'be doing". Do is present tense. Be doing is a continuous action-- meaning past, present and into the future.

Wiki's explanation: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_American_Vernacular_English)
Aspect marking

The most distinguishing feature of AAVE is the use of forms of be to mark aspect in verb phrases. The use or lack of a form of be can indicate whether the performance of the verb is of a habitual nature. In SAE, this can be expressed only using adverbs such as usually. It is disputed whether the use of the verb "to be" to indicate a habitual status or action in AAVE has its roots in various West African languages.
Thanks. I'll note that this doesn't appear to be the way this form is always used. I constantly hear one little kid say to the next "what you be doing?" to ask "what are you doing?" There is no intended aspect of continuousness discernable from context.

[Biggirl]

Thanks. I'll note that this doesn't appear to be the way this form is always used. I constantly hear one little kid say to the next "what you be doing?" to ask "what are you doing?" There is no intended aspect of continuousness discernable from context.
You do? Really? Because the black folk I know don't do that. "Whatcha doin'?" is what I constantly hear little kids say when they mean "what are you doing-- right now." "What you be doing" goes something like this.

"You go to church on Sunday?"
"Yeup."
"What you be doing?"

I don't want to discount your experiences, but maybe you should be listening a bit closer.

[Biggirl]

And now we done hijacked pizzabrat's thread all the way to Cuba.

[pizzabrat]

I don't want to discount your experiences, but maybe you should be listening a bit closer.Ditto, and I'd suggest it's another example of overhearing somebody who wasn't talking to you, and the obvious result of misinterpretation.

[Kimstu]

Kimstu: This is one of those "black thangs": it is high sport among American blacks to send e-mail forwards featuring pictures of ghetto-fabulousness. [...]

Oh, wait... here they are. My google-fu is greater than yours...

http://www.byroncrawford.com/2005/0...o_prom_pic.html

Thanks Askia! Actually, I think my classmates would definitely have liked some of those, particularly the outfits made out of sports team uniforms. Why didn't we think of that?...

What we did think of was perhaps equally horrifying, although in a different way. I managed to find an image approximately equivalent to my own eighth-grade prom dress from 1977 (http://www.thevintagevault.citymax.com/catalog/item/256499/323474.htm). Except mine was in butter-yellow with short sleeves. Dear Og, those were some nasty threadz.

[HazelNutCoffee]

Speaking as a 19 year old inner city black youth, probably the only one on this board...allow me to retort. In my personal experience, being intelligent does NOT equate to acting white. Nobody I know, including myself, because to be honest, lord knows I can't stand an oreo, has used the term in this context.

What, exactly, is your definition of being an oreo? I've been accused of being a "twinkie" - because most of my friends are white, because I hate Korean pop music, because I don't participate in organizations and gatherings that are exclusively Korean/Asian. I know the politics are different, depending on the ethnic group, but it really annoys me when people talk about others being "whitewashed" just because they don't subscribe to a certain kind of culture that others deem to be "authentic."

[whole bean]

Ditto, and I'd suggest it's another example of overhearing somebody who wasn't talking to you, and the obvious result of misinterpretation.
I live in an old in-town neighborhood with a large, established black population. My neighbors and their kids and grandkids talk to me. I've grown up gowing to school and playing sports with black kids. They talked to me too. I worked for three summers at a summer camp for "innner city" youth, which in southern Alabama meant for every 100 kids, 95 were black, 4 where white, one was non-black hispanic. They talked to me, lots. I maintain that I have heard in conversations in which I was a participant "be doing" used to mean "doing," "are doing" and "going to do"

[Biggirl]

I live in an old in-town neighborhood with a large, established black population. My neighbors and their kids and grandkids talk to me. I've grown up gowing to school and playing sports with black kids. They talked to me too. I worked for three summers at a summer camp for "innner city" youth, which in southern Alabama meant for every 100 kids, 95 were black, 4 where white, one was non-black hispanic. They talked to me, lots. I maintain that I have heard in conversations in which I was a participant "be doing" used to mean "doing," "are doing" and "going to do"

Now that you've mentioned it, I've spoken with my llittle white kid neighbors and they say "There's no fit" when they mean "There's no room." Why do white people talk that way? Is that a feature of SAE? I've been a participant in many conversations when they do this. As a matter of fact, all my white friends' children say 'geeses' when they mean geese and feets when it should be 'feet'-- let me make this perfectly clear, some of my best friends' children are white, so I will maintain that this is, in fact, a feature of SAE.

[whole bean]

Now that you've mentioned it, I've spoken with my llittle white kid neighbors and they say "There's no fit" when they mean "There's no room." Why do white people talk that way? Is that a feature of SAE? I've been a participant in many conversations when they do this. As a matter of fact, all my white friends' children say 'geeses' when they mean geese and feets when it should be 'feet'-- let me make this perfectly clear, some of my best friends' children are white, so I will maintain that this is, in fact, a feature of SAE.
You have stumbled upon some sub category of language . . . baby talk, maybe? You've described variant rules for use of "to be" that you imply are somehow obeyed with unflinchingly rigid regularity in the black community. I guess the kids I heard just weren't speaking proper AAVE

[pizzabrat]

Since it's a common mistake for outsiders to think that "I be" = "I am", it's just much easier to believe that you misinterpreted someone.

[Nzinga, Seated]

Wholebean, after ducking out of this thread, I have decided to jump back in to make just one single statement.

I call bullshit on your whole story. I don't believe you ever heard it used the way you are insisting at all. Maybe in some movies and t.v. shows that are trying to imitate black slang. But I call bullshit on your absolute positive memory of hearing it used the way you claim.

[Kimstu]

Gee whiz, Nzinga, isn't that a bit sweeping? Surely it's possible that whole bean did now and then really hear a juvenile AAVE speaker using "be" incorrectly? Just as in Biggirl's example, some juvenile SAE speakers sometimes use features of SAE incorrectly.

[whole bean]

Wholebean, after ducking out of this thread, I have decided to jump back in to make just one single statement.

I call bullshit on your whole story. I don't believe you ever heard it used the way you are insisting at all. Maybe in some movies and t.v. shows that are trying to imitate black slang. But I call bullshit on your absolute positive memory of hearing it used the way you claim.
Busted, dude. I write this from rural Vermont. Thank god someone like you can come along and expose me, what with your monopolisitic access to records of language usage in every black American community. :rolleyes: Your confidence in something you have absolutely no ability to know is astounding. It's only overshadowed by the fact that you're oblivious to your ignorance.

[Nzinga, Seated]

Yeah. It is sweeping. It is possible that one has heard that bizarre usage at some point. Just as I am sure one may have heard someone say "I are go to the store now." Possibly. But that would be bizarre. I simply doubt his (or her, sorry) story altogether. I smell bullshit with it.

[Biggirl]

Poor bean, getting the brunt of my-- and other's-- frustrations.

Because it is frustrating to continue to hear the "I be, he be, she be" joke all the time and, no matter how it is explained or what linguists have to say about AAVE, people persist on believing otherwise.

See in this thread. All the AAVE speakers saying that "I be" does not equal "I am" and yet there is wholebean insisting she knows how black people speak better than, well, black people. The stereotype is hard to put down since it has been drummed into our collective heads that "Ebonics" is Standard English spoken by dullards.

So, I apologize for being snarky, wholebean.

[whole bean]

Yeah. It is sweeping. It is possible that one has heard that bizarre usage at some point. Just as I am sure one may have heard someone say "I are go to the store now." Possibly. But that would be bizarre. I simply doubt his (or her, sorry) story altogether. I smell bullshit with it.
Like I said, they must not have been speaking proper AAVE. I guess they missed AAVE grammar class that day. I am amused that you cannot accept variance in an vernacular largely (if not exclusively) passed to most of its speakers orally. Biggirl's white speakers will one day hopefuly have SAE grammar class in school and learn not to say "feets" and "geeses" and such.

[whole bean]

Poor bean, getting the brunt of my-- and other's-- frustrations.

Because it is frustrating to continue to hear the "I be, he be, she be" joke all the time and, no matter how it is explained or what linguists have to say about AAVE, people persist on believing otherwise.

See in this thread. All the AAVE speakers saying that "I be" does not equal "I am" and yet there is wholebean insisting she knows how black people speak better than, well, black people. The stereotype is hard to put down since it has been drummed into our collective heads that "Ebonics" is Standard English spoken by dullards.

So, I apologize for being snarky, wholebean.
No problem, I don't think you've been the least bit rude. Unless you're being smart now, then well, whatever. I don't record my recollections daily. I am forced to rely on my memory. I can assure you it's something I'll be on the lookout for now, but so as to avoid donning the mantle of certainty in the face of reasons to doubt as has been done by Nzinga, I'll concede that pizzabrat might be correct as to my mishearing. I cannot say for sure other than this is my recollection on a number (to high to count) of occasions. But you shouldn’t assume too much authority, yourselves. "All the AAVE speakers here" amounts to less than 10 people. I cannot tell you how many times someone has tried to tell me what's southern and I've just sat and thought, “what the hell are talking about? 33 years in the south (big towns, little towns, no towns) and that's news to me.” Perhaps there's more variety of experience than you're accounting for.

[John Mace]

Kimstu: This is one of those "black thangs": it is high sport among American blacks to send e-mail forwards featuring pictures of ghetto-fabulousness. It can be something as simple as the "when they were young" pictures of black celebrities as kids to pimped out rides to ghetto wedding photos. it's like that episode of My Name Is Earl where Joy and Crab Man got married, only, y'know, not fiction.

I don't know where you might find these things on the web, cuz I laugh and delete mine after I get 'em. I can assure you they do exist.

You haven't lived until you've seen the ghetto girl with the pregnant prom dress with the stomach midriff cut out of it to maximize sex appeal....

Oh, wait... here they are. My google-fu is greater than yours...

http://www.byroncrawford.com/2005/05/ghetto_prom_pic.html
Damn. you Black people are funny! :)

The commentary with those pictures is priceless:

Finally, this is the most bizarre and, in some ways, the most sad of all of these pictures. Aaliyah showed up to the prom in an outfit specially designed to show off her soon to be born unwanted, illegitimate future convict of a baby.

[Polerius]

Sshhhhh! Don't go telling the white folk what us black folk be doing!

See how useful that 'be' is? It doesn't mean what we do nor what we've done. It means what we do, have done and continue to do.


Do needs to be modified to convey the meaning of 'be doing". Do is present tense. Be doing is a continuous action-- meaning past, present and into the future.

Overall, I agree that dialects often have expressions that are difficult to express in the 'mainstream' version of a language.

This is not one of those cases.

Based on your explanation of the sentence
"Sshhhhh! Don't go telling the white folk what us black folk be doing!"

it should be equivalent to
"Sshhhhh! Don't tell white people what black people do!"

'what black people do' has a general connotation that this is what black people have done in the past, do now, and will continue to do in the future. It is not restricted to the present tense, and is not necessarily restricted to non-continuous action.

For example,
"Italians make a lot of gestures when they talk. That's just what Italians do"
The 'do' means that's what they have done in the past, do now, and will continue to do so in the future.

I don't see how that is different from 'be doing', based on your example and your definition of it.

[Askia]

I don't see how that is different from 'be doing', based on your example and your definition of it.You only caught one-third of the intended meaning, though. It's hard to explain -- I'm probably "reading" an inflection based on word choice and sentence structure you don't "hear." I understood she meant "shut up, now and forever, period."

Biggirl, we're just too extemporaneously and extemporally timeless for these folks.

[Polerius]

You only caught one-third of the intended meaning, though. It's hard to explain -- I'm probably "reading" an inflection based on word choice and sentence structure you don't "hear." I understood she meant "shut up, now and forever, period."

That's also what
"Don't tell white people what black people do"
means

[Nzinga, Seated]

Polerius, it helps the speaker not have to specify such terms as "what we usually do," "what we are likely to do" , "what we often do"

"We be at the Reggae club"

I am telling someone that it is the club I usually go to. The club I most often go to, the club I will be going to in the future.

If I say, "I go to the Reggae club", the listener assumes I may not have gone to that club a few weeks ago, and may not go two weeks from now.

There are only certain times that you need this, though.

I would never say, "I be going to Princeton (I wish!)"

I would not say that. I would say, "I go to Princeton" (I wish!)

There is no need to make the listener aware of if I will go to that particular school next week or if I went two weeks ago. They know I will go there till I graduate! (I wish).

It is hard, even now, for me to really pin point the exact usage, because even as I write this, I could think of very, very rare situations where, "I be going to Princeton" might actually work. Sigh. Perhaps it is like certain Chinese* terms that don't lend itself to translation.

*I do not claim that Black English is anything like the Chinese language.

[Polerius]

"We be at the Reggae club"

I am telling someone that it is the club I usually go to. The club I most often go to, the club I will be going to in the future.

If I say, "I go to the Reggae club"
"I go to the Reggae club" means, precisely, that that is the club I often go to, the club I will be going to in the future.

the listener assumes I may not have gone to that club a few weeks ago, and may not go two weeks from now.
How is "I be at the Reggae club" different? Are you implying by it that you will be going there until you die? No. I assume you are implying that you will be going there for the foreseeable future, which is what "I go to the Reggae club" also implies.

[Nzinga, Seated]

Polerius, let me try again.

Would you always say, "I go the dance club?" Is there any time you would say instead, "I usually go to that club? That is a club I frequent" "I be going to the Reggae club" would be a good replacement! Try it. Nah. Just kidding. It takes a certain inflection to pull it off.

[Kimstu]

It is hard, even now, for me to really pin point the exact usage, because even as I write this, I could think of very, very rare situations where, "I be going to Princeton" might actually work.

If I understand this correctly: yeah, it wouldn't apply to the situation of attending Princeton as a student, because that wouldn't need marking as a habitual or continuous action along the lines of "we be at the Reggae club".

But if, say, I'm an academic who annually visits Princeton each July to work in a special collection at the library there or something, couldn't I say "Summertime I be going to Princeton"?


"I go to the Reggae club" means, precisely, that that is the club I often go to, the club I will be going to in the future.

In SAE it does, sure. But I think from what Nzinga is saying that it doesn't carry quite that sense in AAVE. In AAVE, "I go to the Reggae club" seems to be more like SAE "I am (now) going to the Reggae club". So AAVE does need that auxiliary "to be" verb to convey the sense of continuous/habitual action.

[Biggirl]

That's also what
"Don't tell white people what black people do"
means
It means more "what black people habitually do." It also conveys the meaning "the stupid things black people do all the time" when combined with "Don't go telling".

AAVE, full of nuance.

[monstro]

Polerius, I think in Biggirl's example, "do" does work just as well.

The advantage of "be" is that it tends to be less ambiguous.

She be talking in class.
She talks in class.

The first is AAVE. The meaning conveyed is "She talks in class often". The second is Standard, and has an identical message. But it can also mean (in the absence of context), "She is currently talking in class".

In practice, though, both Standard and AAVE speakers use words like "often", "always" and "all the time" that remove such ambiguity. When I'm speaking AAVE, I usually say "She be talking in class all the time". Just like I would say "She talks in class a lot".

My favorite AAVE verb usage is "been done". As in, "We been done graduated". A non-speaker may read this as, "We just graduated", but they would be wrong. The actual meaning is, "We graduated a long time ago. Where the hell have you been?"

[Biggirl]

No problem, I don't think you've been the least bit rude. Unless you're being smart now, then well, whatever. I don't record my recollections daily. I am forced to rely on my memory. I can assure you it's something I'll be on the lookout for now, but so as to avoid donning the mantle of certainty in the face of reasons to doubt as has been done by Nzinga, I'll concede that pizzabrat might be correct as to my mishearing. I cannot say for sure other than this is my recollection on a number (to high to count) of occasions. But you shouldn’t assume too much authority, yourselves. "All the AAVE speakers here" amounts to less than 10 people. I cannot tell you how many times someone has tried to tell me what's southern and I've just sat and thought, “what the hell are talking about? 33 years in the south (big towns, little towns, no towns) and that's news to me.” Perhaps there's more variety of experience than you're accounting for.


My snark bone is broken!



I was being sarcastic in the post I apologized for and sincere in my apology post.

[John Mace]

Polerius, I think in Biggirl's example, "do" does work just as well.

The advantage of "be" is that it tends to be less ambiguous.

She be talking in class.
She talks in class.

The first is AAVE. The meaning conveyed is "She talks in class often". The second is Standard, and has an identical message. But it can also mean (in the absence of context), "She is currently talking in class".
I disagree. She talks in class ≠ She is currently talking in class. I would always interpret it, even with no context, as meaning that she habitually talks in class.

[monstro]

I disagree. She talks in class ≠ She is currently talking in class. I would always interpret it, even with no context, as meaning that she habitually talks in class.

You're right. One would say "She is talking in class" if they wanted to say "She is currently talking in class".

[Biggirl]

I TOLE you this AAVE stuff was a whole 'nother thread.

[you with the face]

"I go to the Reggae club" means, precisely, that that is the club I often go to, the club I will be going to in the future.

The advantage of "I be at the Reggae club" is that it is so precise that it allows no other interpretation. "I be" means "I'm chronically there, at the club". There's a difference between that and saying "I go" because with "I go to" there's room for a "I move or proceed to" interpretation from that sentence, which not only fails to place you precisely at the club's GPS coordinants but also, without more context, doesn't allow you to pin down the author's intended tense.

Imagine you're telling me a story about your weekend experience at the club. There's two ways you could express what you did. You could say "So I ate dinner, right? And then I went to the Reggae Club. That's when I fell on my ass." Since storytellers also choose to speak in the present tense, you also have the option of saying "So I eat dinner, right? And then I go to the Reggae Club. That's when I fall on my ass."

You can't do that with "be". "Be" only works in one type of tense. The past, present, and future tense. It has no ambiguity. It stands alone. "I be at the Reggae Club" can only mean one thing. I am always at the Reggae Club.

All hail to the power of be!!!

[you with the face]

AAVE, full of nuance.

Well, you see, it had to be that way. When we planning runaways, revolts, and rebellions, we needed to be able say a lot in only a few words.

[John Mace]

I TOLE you this AAVE stuff was a whole 'nother thread.
Ask the AAVE speaker? Might not be a bad idea...

I have to admit that I would never have known about the "he be going" meaning if a real live Black person hadn't explained it to me.

[pizzabrat]

I disagree. She talks in class ≠ She is currently talking in class. I would always interpret it, even with no context, as meaning that she habitually talks in class.
:dubious: Always?

"Tuesday goes much better for Heather than the day before. She talks in class, undetected this time, raising her hand just often enough to fool the teacher into thinking she's paying attention."

"So I remove the handcuffs and what does he do? He runs!"

"You look sad."

"My head hurts."

etc.

[Nzinga, Seated]

And we do be plannin' us some runaways, revolts, and rebellions, don't we? Ha!

[Nzinga, Seated]

But if, say, I'm an academic who annually visits Princeton each July to work in a special collection at the library there or something, couldn't I say "Summertime I be going to Princeton"?


Noooooooo! Please. No. That wouldn't work.

[pizzabrat]

Noooooooo! Please. No. That wouldn't work.
Why not?

[Nzinga, Seated]

Please ask one of the more articulate posters to answer that. I am grasping to figure out how to explain it, and I am having trouble.

I would never say, "Summertime I be going to Princeton".

Under very specific circumstances, I might say, "I be going to Princeton in the Summer". I can't figure out how to explain the difference.

Let me not pass the buck here, though. Let me try. It is the only way to grow.

I might say, "I be going to Princeton in the Summer" if someone needed to know what I usually do in the summer, especially if there are other schools that I may be going to, or other seasons I may be going there.

When you say, "Summertime, I be going to Princeton" it sounds as if I am specifying this Summer. A specific Summer...this upcoming summer. I would never say that. It only works if there is some question of when I might be going there.

Like, I can't say, "Wednesday, I be going to Princeton."

[monstro]

"In the summer, I be at Princeton" sounds better to my ears. But just slightly.

I would never use "be" if I was talking about something that happens regularly, but not constantly. I would say something more standard, like "In the summer, I go to Princeton". There's no rule that every sentence has to deviate from SAVE.

[Kimstu]

"In the summer, I be at Princeton" sounds better to my ears. But just slightly.

I would never use "be" if I was talking about something that happens regularly, but not constantly. I would say something more standard, like "In the summer, I go to Princeton".

Yowza, this is subtle. How about if, say, I live in a nearby town but commute daily to Princeton for work? Can I say "Every day I be going to Princeton to teach them lazy-ass kids"? (No offense to Princeton students intended; somehow the object phrase "them kids" just sounded as though it needed a forceful adjective, but what do I know. :))

[Biggirl]

Like, I can't say, "Wednesday, I be going to Princeton."

But "Wednesdays, I be going to Princeton" is perfectly fine.

[monstro]

Yowza, this is subtle. How about if, say, I live in a nearby town but commute daily to Princeton for work? Can I say "Every day I be going to Princeton to teach them lazy-ass kids"? (No offense to Princeton students intended; somehow the object phrase "them kids" just sounded as though it needed a forceful adjective, but what do I know. :))

It is subtle, but I'm not trying to pretend that I'm the AAVE expert. I just don't think I would use "be" like that. This is how I would communicate the above:

Friend: monstro, what do you do everyday?
monstro: I be at school, teaching them lazy-ass kids.

I can't see myself ever saying "Every day I be going to school..." As you with the face said above, noting the specific interval of time adds ambiguity to the sentence when there otherwise would be none. Also, the "going" throws things off. It emphasizes the act of moving rather than the act of being there.

Here's where "be going" would make sense:

Friend: When do you have quality time with your boyfriend?
monstro: When we be going home from school on the bus.

[monstro]

Sorry, that was Nzinga, not you with the face who said that.

[Kimstu]

Oh help, I give up. Thanks anyway! You know, I think trying to use a different dialect of one's own language is harder than using a different language, because you have all these automatic expectations of how it should work that are subtly different from the way it actually works.

At any rate, I now have a little more sympathy for those silly non-AAVE speakers who try to sound cool by using AAVE and get the grammar wrong. It don't be easy. Or something.

[Nzinga, Seated]

I love the English language. I mean proper English. It is beautiful; and I sure don't pretend to have it mastered, but I love to read and hear it spoken nicely.

A healthy respect for the English language is the reason why the Dope is the only board I post to! There are no others that draw me in with such eloquent posts.

That being said, I sure do have a soft spot for Black English.

"Where you be at?" rolls effortlessly off my tongue to mean, "Where do you frequently hang out? Where can I often find you?"

Outsiders may think it means "Where are you right now." They may make movie characters say it to mean, "where are you right now." Others may mock it and use it mockingly to mean, "where are you right now." But that is not what it means.

I love to speak slang and Black English. I don't allow my own daughter to, though. She speaks very good English, and I want that to be cemented and for her to have a very large vocabulary before I allow her to indulge in Black English.

But I do love to speak it myself when I can. Which is often, but not all the time.

[DSeid]

Which does bring this back to the op!

How old is your daughter? What if she was mocked by Black peers for speaking proper English properly and for having a less than complete mastery of Black English (AAVE)? Even if that wasn't referred to as "acting White" how would you respond to those who mocked her and how would you counsel her? Would have a different effect than an Appalachian White boy (for example) being mocked for speaking English properly?

[John Mace]

:dubious: Always?

"Tuesday goes much better for Heather than the day before. She talks in class, undetected this time, raising her hand just often enough to fool the teacher into thinking she's paying attention."
I was thinking of it as a stand alone sentence, not as a phrase or part of another sentence. Probably what I should have said is that it's hard to imagine a context in which it would mean "she is currently talking in class", as in right this very second. It would be a pretty unusual context for it to mean that.

[Nzinga, Seated]

John Mace, I don't want her to get teased at all. Not for anything. Already, she seems a bit different from her own cousins, neighbors and school mates.

If they call her "whitey", (has never happened), I will be angry. But I just don't anticipate anyone calling her that because she is smart. (which I think she is exceptionally so; but doesn't every mom think that of her child?)

Where I come from, no one puts anyone down for being smart.

She is a bit nerdy, and there is a chance that her awkwardness and lack of 'coolness' may cause someone to call her names. If that happens, I will be angry. But I do expect it.

[you with the face]

I have to admit that I would never have known about the "he be going" meaning if a real live Black person hadn't explained it to me.

As opposed to all those fake dead ones that be running around, eh?

[Hippy Hollow]

Y'all be all over my head with this AAVE talk.

The only time I think folks from round the way use a sentence like:

"She be talking in class."

Is to indicate that she is a habitual talker. I'd be more likely to hear "She be talking in class all the time, and we can't hear nothing."

*that's all I got*

[CanvasShoes]

What? I have no idea what you are saying. If it wasn't for slavery, there'd be no A-A ethnic group, so in that sense, it is quite "authentic" (whatever that means). It doesn't matter that AAVE was born out of slavery. Value judgements about the heinousness of its origins don't matter, either. People don't suddenly start speaking another dialect just because their mother dialect came out of oppression.
Well, one of the complaints of Al Sharpton is that black people who speak in a grammatically correct way (Barack Obama (sp?) aren't authentic. Add to that the youngsters who accuse their peers of "acting white" as in "you are not truly black unless you use the accepted slang, as WE, the deciders of what is cool and black have deemed authentic".

Education leads to economic power and wealth. That's why ALL people value education. I don't think black folks of your parent's era were thinking "I need to go to school so I won't be ignorant like my great grand daddy". It was the American Dream that motivated them, just like it did everyone else.
Yes. But I do remember reading and hearing that what motivated black people regarding education WAS, at least in part, to kick their past so to speak. Sortof like the semi-jokey saying "a woman has to work twice as hard as a man to be considered half as good (fortunately it isn't hard)". Having come of age, as a woman in the 70s, I can say that this is true, and certainly motivated ME to "show them". So why wouldn't black people, whom so many had been so rotten to for so long not have that sort of "I'll show them" motivation as a great part of their love for education? (seems as if it was some Martin Luther King biography, but that was way back in the 80s, so I apologize, I honestly don't remember where I first read it, I know Bill Cosby harps on it a lot).

And if it's just a "chasing the American Dream" thing, why has it fallen so out of favor with so many young black people? In my humble opinion, and as you mentioned before, it has nothing to do with blackness, and everything to do with where they are from and their refusal to take responsibility for their own lives.

I saw the same thing in teenagers in Texas High Schools when I did subsitute teaching there. With the exception of those who did want to study and go to college only being called nerds, not questioned about their authenticity regarding being white, or being Texan.

I meant "underclass" in terms of SES status.
SES? (I must have missed that one in sociology class, either that or having worked in Federal project hell, I'm on Acronym overload :)).

When you talk about black people, you need to be aware that, just like in all groups, there's more to meets the eye than skin color. It seems that when you talk about blacks, you're not making the same kind of distinctions you'd make if you were talking about whites. So yeah, the blacks you went to school with in Alaska are likely not going to be comparable to low-income urban kids who pick on Biggirl's daughter. Class and regional differences should not be overlooked.
I am aware of that, since I'm the one saying I don't think race really matters, that my beef is with the accusatory nature of the little snots the OP is speaking of. That's part of what I've been saying all along. It is WHO a person is, and how they comport themselves, not what color their skin is. At least to me it is. It seems that these young accusers of "unblackness" don't believe the same thing.

And of COURSE there are the same sorts of distinctions among whites (and natives etc). Did you miss the part where I said this wasn't a rich group, or that I grew up poor? There are large groups of poor whites and poor other cultural groups too. Here, it is the native population. I don't happen to feel that a person's skin color is a cause of those class differences. A person can and will do what they decide to do, regardless of the color of their skin. I grew up poor and am not bright. But I managed to go to school and get a decent career. And that despite some serious young person mistakes, like getting married and having a child, and then a divorce much too soon.

Part of that "deciding what to do, and what it will or will not do for them" is a person's manner of speech, way of dressing and carrying him or herself and that has nothing to do with a person's skin color, it is what they have decided for themselves. That is, either good behaviour, average behaviour, or bad behaviour.

It wouldn't make sense for your boyfriend to ascribe your behavior to being white, because, being part of the majority race himself, he doesn't see it as a racial thing. Put him in a country where he's a stigmatized minority, and he'd likely replace "stuck up" with "acting <insert majority race>".
I didn't say he would accuse me of acting white. I said, he wouldn't accuse me of NOT being white, or in other words, he didn't accuse me of not being authentic.
That IS what the OP is about. That is, black kids who speak in a grammatically correct way, or get decent grades etc and then their "cool" peers accuse them of "acting white", or like Al Sharpton idiotically says " not being authentic".

Again, my question is "authentic how"? How is bad grammar and harsh gangsta type slang "authentic" to being black?

I agree that it may be "authentic" to being part of a specific class, JUST like the really horrendous "springerite" backhills Deliverance type jargon is "authentic" to being a banjo playing, white lightnin' brewin scary white supremecist guy, but NOT to "being white".

[CanvasShoes]

how is that any different than "do"?
Or "are"?

[CanvasShoes]

Now that you've mentioned it, I've spoken with my llittle white kid neighbors and they say "There's no fit" when they mean "There's no room." Why do white people talk that way? Is that a feature of SAE? I've been a participant in many conversations when they do this. As a matter of fact, all my white friends' children say 'geeses' when they mean geese and feets when it should be 'feet'-- let me make this perfectly clear, some of my best friends' children are white, so I will maintain that this is, in fact, a feature of SAE.
Those are all bad grammar. You're the correct one, it is "feet", "geese" and I have no idea who would say "there's no fit" (is there a lot of lead paint in your white friend's neighborhoods? :D).

[CanvasShoes]

Polerius, it helps the speaker not have to specify such terms as "what we usually do," "what we are likely to do" , "what we often do"

"We be at the Reggae club"

I am telling someone that it is the club I usually go to. The club I most often go to, the club I will be going to in the future.

*I do not claim that Black English is anything like the Chinese language.
I don't know, you just gave ME a language lesson :D. If someone said "we be at the Reggae club" to me, that would mean "We are there now". Unless of course they weren't speaking with me on the phone, then I'd be pretty confused, or I might think they meant they'd just come from there, as in "we were just at the reggae club". Maybe that's why the other poster mistranslated it. Without you translating it, someone not knowing might think it implied present tense.

[CanvasShoes]

My favorite AAVE verb usage is "been done". As in, "We been done graduated". A non-speaker may read this as, "We just graduated", but they would be wrong. The actual meaning is, "We graduated a long time ago. Where the hell have you been?"
How funny! In Ozark and amongst other country folk, it's just the opposite. "done been". As in, " I done BEEN there".

Sorry, no point, I just thought it was kind of an interesting coinkydink. :)

[you with the face]

Well, one of the complaints of Al Sharpton is that black people who speak in a grammatically correct way (Barack Obama (sp?) aren't authentic.

Cite for this please? I have a feeling if Sharpton had really made this claim, there'd be a 10 page Pit thread about it and a slew of articles about it in the mainstream media. So I'm going to pull a Nzinga and call bullshit.

But you just reminded me of the point I raised on page 1 or 2. Sharpton is often presented as a practioner and advocate of bad grammar even though he speaks in standard, proper English. The only thing I can think is behind this misrepresentation is the fact that he has a noticeable "blaccent". Obama is presented as a maligned victim because he is supposedly more articulate than "the other black people" and is hated because of it. Um, no. Obama is an eloquent man, and at the same time, he still comes across as black when he speaks. So this wag-the-dog war between Obama and Sharpton is just not convincing, and it's revealing that so many people swallow it hook, line, and sinker.

And if it's just a "chasing the American Dream" thing, why has it fallen so out of favor with so many young black people?

How many black people do you know on a personal basis? I'm not being snarky, but the things you keep saying leave me with the impression that the only exposure you have to black folks comes from 3rd and 4th hand information, and maybe the TV. Young black people are still chasing the American Dream. In fact, more now than ever are doing that.

With all due respect, I read you waxing nostalgic about the good old days when black folks were upstanding, wholesome citizens, and can't help but think you have a rather limited and condescending opinion of African-Americans.

Again, my question is "authentic how"? How is bad grammar and harsh gangsta type slang "authentic" to being black?

It's NOT. You're the only one in this thread suggesting that it is. None of the black people I know believe speaking "harsha gangta type slang" is a requirement for blackness. And I grew up in southwest Atlanta on Ashby Street when hip hop was at its peak. Your cluelessness about this subject becomes ever more apparent the more you boil this all down to bad grammar and slang.

SES = socioeconomic status

[monstro]

I'd actually argue that having a "blaccent" is appreciated more in the black community than specific word usage.

I think the reason why Bryant Gumble got mocked so much back in the day was not because he spoke "proper" English, but because he lacked the inflection and intonation common to African Americans.

[Askia]

I think the reason why Bryant Gumble got mocked so much back in the day was not because he spoke "proper" English, but because he lacked the inflection and intonation common to African Americans. That, and his open (and unreciprocated) lust for blonde white women. Let's be real!