Cigarette assholes

[Montfort]

Why isn't dropping a finished cigarette butt on the sidewalk considered littering? If it is, why isn't it being enforced?

I asked a smoker once why she did this, and, believe it her not, her answer was "so birds could use them to build their nests."

[stuyguy]

Mont: excellent question that I've often asked myself.

My theory is that authorities look the other way so as to keep smoldering butts out of trash bins filled with flammable litter.

[SavageNarce]

Cigarettes I can live with. If I step on a dead butt, it will at least stay where it is. Gum is a whole other question.

Gum chewers who throw the wad on the street should be publicly fined AND flogged. And made to pay the bills for cleaning my carpet, car floor, the stores where I shop...

[momcat]

I do not allow smoking in my house so my father and sister must go outside to light up. After finishing their smokes, they just flicked the butts off into my yard. When I complained about their litter all over and asked them to pick it all up, I was informed that the butts were biodegradable and would thus be left to rot. Two years later when I moved out, there were STILL cigarette butts in my lawn! Even the lawn mower didn't chew them up enough to make the weather take care of them!! Biodegradable, my ass!! Litter is litter. Make smokers clean up after themselves!!

And what's with emptying the car ashtray into the street as they wait at a light?? Piles and drifts of old, nasty butts at every intersection. YUK!!

MomCat

[scratch1300]

It's a good argument for going to back to unfiltered cigarettes.

[jeel]

Right! It's the filter that stays there for eons!!!

[Alphagene]

I am very sensitive to other peoples complaints about smoke and smoking, but I think that being irritated by an occasional 3cm x 0.5cm ciggiebutt on a sidewalk is a tad obsessive. It's not like ashtrays are ubiquitous. I think if you petitioned for stricter enforcement of butt-flinging as littering, smokers would demand that ashtrays be placed at every street corner at taxpayers expense so that there would a place to put empty butts. Otherwise, you'd get the burning garbage can scenario.

So disposing of the butt on on the sidewalk is often the only real option and hardly makes the smoker an "asshole".

[Edited by Alphagene on 10-13-2000 at 02:48 PM]

[buffalogal]

That's always been a pet peeve of mine, people who toss their cigarette butts out the car window. Obviously they have ashtrays, but they don't want to mess them up. Maybe they use the ashtrays for candy or potpourri. It's just another sign of selfishness.

And as far as charging these people with littering, I would guess that the offense seems so trivial AND is so commonplace, that enforcement would require hiring more police officers.

[Annie-Xmas]

How many acres of land are burned up because people throw cigarettes out of car windows? Someone I worked with was killed when he threw a cigar butt out his car window, and it came back in the back window, ignited, and burned up him and the car.

People who throw butts out of car windows don't care if they burn the whole place down.

[Enright3]

I don't think it's obsessive at all. It looks horrible, and they'll never disolve. You have to either pick it up, or hope it gets washed away. What would you do if it were a candy wrapper? ...Probably put it in your pocket until you saw a trashcan. What's wrong with putting the cig butt into your pocket? Not much, just the filter. Hell, it's only .5cm tall by 3cm.

[Zenster]

Originally posted by Alphagene
I am very sensitive to other peoples complaints about smoke and smoking, but I think that being irritated by an occasional 3cm x 0.5cm ciggiebutt on a sidewalk is a tad obsessive. It's not like ashtrays are ubiquitous. I think if you petitioned for stricter enforcement of butt-flinging as littering, smokers would demand that ashtrays be placed at every street corner at taxpayers expense so that there would a place to put empty butts. Otherwise, you'd get the burning garbage can scenario.

So disposing of the butt on on the sidewalk is often the only real option and hardly makes the smoker an "asshole".

[Edited by Alphagene on 10-13-2000 at 02:48 PM]

Totally wrong Alphagene! At the very least smokers can deposit their butts in the gutter. To drop them on the sidewalk is right up there with leaving chewing gum and spitting on the sidewalk as well.

I rarely, if ever have found an occasion to differ with a moderator, but this time you are so wrong as to be stupid. It takes no major extra effort to direct what is technically litter into the gutter. To leave in plain view for all to see is tantamount to tagging.

I dread to think of how many tons of cigarette butts are dumped into the environment every day in the US alone, but the figure should revolt any thinking human being. If there was some way to institute a deposit on cigarette filters, I would.

Try canoeing on a beautiful mountain lake sometime, only to see filters floating on the surface of the water. Regardless of the legality of smoking, littering is a revolting habit and is socially unacceptable. Filters do not biodegrade and 90% of smokers that I have ever met do not dispose of their butts properly.

You are way off base on this one Alphagene!

[black rabbit]

As one proficient in the art of precision butt flicking (I can hit an wanking metal guitar player from the back of a mid-sized nightclub), I normally try to aim for a storm sewer or a pigeon. I wish we had more rats in my city.

[Sn-man]

A former smoker’s point of view. It is not about trash or littering. I think this is just an issue of laziness. I would put out the cherry and carry my butts to the trash. When in the back county, I would field strip the butt (shred into very small pieces and rolled into tiny balls and scattered). When out fishing, I had a tin that had a lid and kept the butts to throw away later. There is no good reason that butts need to be tossed on the ground.

[lee]

When I have trash in my hand, no matter how biodegradeable, I find a proper place to dispose of it. If that means that I have to carry the trash on my person for a bit, so be it. I have allergies, I sneeze a lot and at times have to deal with a lot of snotty tissues. Scrunched up and blown to bits, the pieces are not much bigger than a cigarrette butt and they biodegrade much faster, and at times the are much more unpleasant to handle, but I do not throw them on the sidewalk. Smokers should not throw their cigarette butts onto the sidewalk. There is nothing that makes them special. Litter is litter.


Also throwing lit but out of car windows is a heinous crime. I was burnt a few times because my father threw out a butt that was sucked back into the cars other window. I have been very badly startle when lit butts crash into my windshield or on the road ahead of me at night. Lit butts throw out of car windows have cause fires, yet smokers still do that and refuse to change.

[xizor]

Originally posted by Annie-Xmas
How many acres of land are burned up because people throw cigarettes out of car windows?

There are places I have been to (Michigan is the only one I can remember right now, but I'm sure they are not unique) that enact strict penalties for this during times of drought.

I am one of the few smokers I know who properly dispose of all butts. A few twists on the filter and the lit tobacco falls to the ground, step on it to extinguish, throw filter in the trash. Not too hard, but even other smokers give me funny looks for doing it.

[wireless]

Originally posted by buffalogal
That's always been a pet peeve of mine, people who toss their cigarette butts out the car window. Obviously they have ashtrays, but they don't want to mess them up. Maybe they use the ashtrays for candy or potpourri. It's just another sign of selfishness.


I agree this is egregious. And offensive.

They're too yucky and smelly (or whatever) to keep in the car, but you'll put them in your mouth?

I really don't care if someone chooses to smoke - it's your choice - but don't litter.
Litter is litter. And cigarette butts are litter.

[Phobos]

Originally posted by black455
I normally try to aim for a storm sewer or a pigeon.

You think a storm sewer is an acceptable place? That goes straight to a river.

There have been many times when I wanted to start a Pit thread about smokers who toss cigarette butts on the ground. It's obnoxious, disgusting, littering, and potentially dangerous. No ashtrays in sight? T.S. Find one.

To the OP, I can only imagine that an individual cigarette is viewed as such a minor infraction not worth the hassle. But, as noted in this thread, it adds up when millions of smokers do it every day.

Here's another example of obnoxiousness/selfishness...my condo happens to be the front unit and smokers from the back units will smoke at my doorstep and toss the butts on the ground in front of my window, creating a nice big pile after a while.

[/end rant]

[Mauve Dog]

Originally posted by Zenster
[QUOTE]At the very least smokers can deposit their butts in the gutter. To drop them on the sidewalk is right up there with leaving chewing gum and spitting on the sidewalk as well.

I would agree that this is the very least they can do. However, I don't feel that a gutter choked with cigarette butts is any more appealing than a sidewalk littered with them. On a windy day, they will still be strewn all over the countryside.

As others have stated, it isn't that much trouble to make sure the cigarette is out, then throw it into a trash can.

[AskNott]

It's just a minor point, I know, but you've misspelled "ashholes."

[zwaldd]

arguing about cigarette butt littering is like arguing about rude cell phone usage, unleashed dogs, unsupervised children, or noisy neighbors.

the perpetrators are oblivious to how their behavior is inconsiderate to those around them. they don't get it and never will.

[WillyK]

Originally posted by buffalogal
That's always been a pet peeve of mine, people who toss their cigarette butts out the car window. Obviously they have ashtrays, but they don't want to mess them up. Maybe they use the ashtrays for candy or potpourri. It's just another sign of selfishness.

And as far as charging these people with littering, I would guess that the offense seems so trivial AND is so commonplace, that enforcement would require hiring more police officers.

Twod days ago, my father was driving in town with his new truck. He is a lifetime smoker, but usually does'nt smoke in his "new truck", but was in traffic, so he lit up. When he was about finished, he did'nt want to use his nice clean ashtry and was about to throw it out the window when he saw a police car right behind him. He held on to it but he could not shake the 5-O. Suddenly, he felt a warm sensation between his legs and noticed, to his suprise, the burning end fell off and landed on his seat.He quickly put it out but now has a big hole in the seat of his "new truck".
I laughed my butt off when he told me this! (No pun entended)

[Montfort]

I haven't made an OP in a while that's had this many reponses. I probably should've posted it in the Pit, or even IMHO, based on the responses.

I made the OP because I see butts all the time in DC, and they ruin what is actually a rather lovely city. And, they're everywhere, on the sidewalks, in the gutters. And people don't even think twice about dropping them, much less snuffing them out by stomping on them with their shoe.

Ugh.

And, I agree with most of the above: Alphagene's "defense" was tenable, at best. When I'm done reading my newspaper, I recycle it. When I'm done chewing my gum, I dispose of it properly. In the day when I used to smoke (back in high school) I would dispose of my butts after snuffing them properly.

Why can't they?

[Zenster]

Well Alphagene, got the ostiones to come back in and support your stand on this issue? We're waiting.

[sailor]

Some people say it's only a cigarrette butt... then, well, it's only a gum wrapper... it's only an empty cigarrette pack, it's only an empty soda can... Morons! Littering is unacceptable. period.

I am sick of cleaning the sidewalk and even the front yard. These are the same people that complain about bad city services. Do your part first and then you can complain. These people are pigs.

[manhattan]

Originally posted by Montfort
I haven't made an OP in a while that's had this many reponses. I probably should've posted it in the Pit, or even IMHO, based on the responses.


Based on the responses? Did you really expect any other kind of response based on the thread title?

Well here goes. 1) Yes, it is littering.

2) It is not enforced because fire departments could not keep up with the demand if smokers threw smoldering butts in trash cans and municipalities have opted not to expend public monies on ashtrays the way they have on trash cans.

Happy?

This one's off to the Pit.

[tradesilicon]

What's the big deal about adding an ash tray at the top of a trash can, (with a little bit of that nice sand in there maybe...) and have the thing enforced a little better?

Why stop this with CigButts? I just can't stand the amount of trash in the streets of our city (S.F.) and no one seems to care. I go out of my way to find a trash can if I have anything to throw out. I do remember putting the cigs out with my foot when I used to smoke, then pusing them in the gutter if there was no where else to throw 'em. But look at the place today, there are bags of trash on the side walk, food thrown in the street, empty bottles of everything (from beer to milk), etc. Some areas are worse than others of course, but the whole place can use some clean up. SigButts are the least of the problem.

[stuyguy]

Hi, Jack! Or should I say, hi tradesilicon?

Yeah, what's up with your burg? I visited there for the first time 2 years ago. Everyone said, "Hey you're gonna love it -- it's like NYC only better."

As much as I wanted to like the place, I came away thinking ...YICKKK! (Forgetting the wacky unlabelled 4-way stop signs that I griped about on another thread...) What's with all those homeless guys and all that litter?!?

You guys need a little Giulianizing. Now that Rudy's decided to sit out the Senate race (vs. Hellary), and term limits prohibit him from taking another stab at the Big Apple mayoralty, he might be open to a recuitment drive.

Now, as for your sand-filled ashtray idea: I suspect that such an arrangement would make emptying the trash can rather difficult, presuming, of course, they do so by upending the thing into the maw of the garbage truck, like they do it here.

[Archer]

Why can't smokers just quit? I did, 20 years ago, it can be done. Expecting the rest of society to put ashtrays at every corner to support a smokers habit is absolutely asinine!

[Lsura]

Originally posted by Archer
Why can't smokers just quit? I did, 20 years ago, it can be done. Expecting the rest of society to put ashtrays at every corner to support a smokers habit is absolutely asinine!


Yeah, we could quit. But then we wouldn't get the joy of being told how bad it is for us. I'm glad you quit 20 years ago. But I didn't. I wasn't even smoking 20 years ago, since I was all of 7 years old. Yes, I will quit. But sometimes I think about keeping on, just so I can annoy ex-smokers.

(For the record, I am a polite smoker-if I eat out with non-smokers, I sit in the non-smoking section with them. I never light up in anyone else's car, house, etc, unless they are a smoker, and light up first. I don't smoke around my non smoking friends. Generally, I only smoke in my car(when alone), my apartment balcony(I'm on the top floor, so it doesn't float up at anyone else) or the smoking area at work(out back, by the dumpster).)

Back to the topic at hand, I am another 'field stripper' of cigarettes. Lose the cherry off the top, and that butt can be deposited in any trash can. I never throw one out the car window-if I have neglected to empty my ash tray, then I usually have a half full soda can next to the seat(I drive a LOT for work).

And yes, I get strange looks from other people, other smokers for not just tossing it down. But why should I be responsible for more trash on the roads, or, even worse, for a fire.

[Guinastasia]

Some moron once threw a still flaming butt into the trash in the lobby at Kmart. A customer told me the trash was on fire.
AAAGGHHH...thank god someone else had thrown away an Icey so that I could poor orange goo on the flaming trash....

[BoBettie]

Why not try a "personal ash tray" for when you light up outside? You butt our your smoke, tuck it away, then throw it away later. My husband smokes but when he's away from a receptical he stubs the cig out and puts it in his pocket to toss later. It's called common courtesy.
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=463036289

Zette

[Alphagene]

Originally posted by Zenster
Well Alphagene, got the ostiones to come back in and support your stand on this issue? We're waiting.
Oh you are? How darling. Consider needlepoint.

Originally posted by Zenster
Totally wrong Alphagene!
Uh huh. You got a crush on me or something?

There's something I need to support? I'm not going to put a potentially hot paper product in my pocket or in the trashcan. I generally aim for the sewer or the gutter where I know the Department of Sanitation will take the foul garbage far away from your offended eyes, but if I miss, no big whoop. And any garbage that I have that isn't on fire have ends up in the trash can. I'm not a pathological litterbug. But I'll admit, with ciggie butts I occasionally litter. Mother Gaia hates me for it I'm sure. And I'm sorry a dirty sidewalk ruins your day.

My original post was not intended to be a celebration of littering. It was a rationalization of why an overloaded judicial system doesn't prosecute everyone who commits this crime. And a threw in an opinion about the people obsessing about this. I think I've shown enough ostiones as it is, thank you.

I think if we made a massive list of the various no-nos, faux pas, crimes, misdemeanors and sins humanity in general has commited, occasional ciggie flicking would be very low on the "asshole" scale.

[Silo]

Why people get so wound up about shit like this evades me.

[Strider]

Archer sez:
Why can't smokers just quit? I did, 20 years ago, it can be done. Expecting the rest of society to put ashtrays at every corner to support a smokers habit is absolutely asinine!

Oh Fuck Off, dickhead! Why is it everyone assumes that if you are a smoker you are trying to quit? Personally, I love smoking. I like the taste, the smell, etc... (What I do not like is the stale cig smell on your clothes after you have smoked for a while, but then again, I do not smoke that much so it is not a problem for me) What I do not like are assholes who assume I want to quit and keep telling me to do so. It is none of you business if I want to smoke or not.

And as far as me expecting "society" to put ashtrays on every corner, well I don't. And placing an ashtray on every corner does not "support" a smokers habit, it is simply a measure that a municipality (sp?) can take in order to prevent cig butts from littering the ground. If I can find an ash tray anywhere in my vacinity then I will glady place my butt in there. If I can not, then tough shit, it is going in the gutter. And if you don't like it, well again, tough shit. And no, I will not carry it in my pocket, nor will I carry a personal ashtray. I have enough shit in my pockets already.

And finally, regarding ciggs on roads. You are right that it is wrong to throw a cig out the window on the road. When I want to get rid of mine I will place it in a soda can, or water bottle, or what have you that is in my car. I will not place it in my ashtray. I have friends who place their butts in their ash tray and guess what, their car smells like ass. While I love the smell and taste of a fresh cig, I hate the smell of stale smoke. And if the situation arises where I do not have anything to place my butt in, then yes, I will throw it out my car window. But there are rules.
-First, I will only throw it out the windows if I am in an area where there is no fire danger. (If I am in an area where there is a danger of starting a fire, I make sure I have something to place the butt in)
-Second, I place my arm out the window and throw the butt towards the ground. This way it will not fly at the car behind me, and it minimizes movement of said butt. It also ensures that the butt will not fly back into my car.
-Third, if you are driving behind me and you are riding my ass, then the cig butt goes out the sun-roof, no exceptions. (Well ok, if Mr. CHP is riding my ass, I will not throw it out the sunroof, duh)

Oh, by the way, at least in the Bay Area, cig butts thrown out of the window of a car is considered littering, and you WILL get a ticket. When I went to court to fight a moving violation ticket one time, a man was there fighting a littering ticket on this subject. To make a long story short, the man smoked monogrammed cigs (cigs whith his initials printed on them) so the judge ordered him to pick up trash on the side of the highway for 20 hours, or until he found HIS cig butt, whichever came first. He also got a ~$200 fine. I also know several people who have gotten littering tickets for throwing their butts out the windows. So the law is at least enforced by the CHP.

-N

PS. Forgive me of any grammer or spelling errors. I tried to check as much as I could but I did not have much time.

[Myrr21]

You know, it strikes me that something as simple as an empty Altoids tin would be easily portable, non-flammable, and capable of holding a good bit. So this "we'll set the garbage or my pants on fire" defence is pure BS.


Oh yeah, Archer: eat a dick.

[The Pit and The Pendulum]

I've got a bunch of Chinese neighbors who toss lit cigarets off the balcony while people are walking below.
They throw other things off, too, like old junk mail and pans of mopwater. It's just nuts. They think everything at ground level is fair game for trash.

After a while I got fed up with the butts landing on my doorstep and would toss them back up on their doorstep. They would shout at me "Why you do this? We no want cigarets by door!" And I would say "I don't want cigarets on my door! And they are your cigaretes. I don't smoke."

Eventually the landlord translated enough to get through to them, so they stopped, but they still don't really get it. They still toss newspapers and water.

[Alphagene]

Originally posted by Myrr21
You know, it strikes me that something as simple as an empty Altoids tin would be easily portable, non-flammable, and capable of holding a good bit. So this "we'll set the garbage or my pants on fire" defence is pure BS.

How about this. You stop suggesting Martha Stewart-esque ways for smokers to dispose of their butts when there are no ashtrays and I'll stop suggesting that you find other things to concern yourself with (like, say man's inhumanity towards man) than a few ciggie butts on a sidewalk.

You all should probably stop staring at the sidewalk anyway. It's poor posture and you might accidentally walk into a pole.

[waterj2]

I think if we made a massive list of the various no-nos, faux pas, crimes, misdemeanors and sins humanity in general has commited, occasional ciggie flicking would be very low on the "asshole" scale.

Yeah, but think of where it will lead if society were to deem it acceptable to toss cigarette butts on the ground. Sure it's no big deal at first, but then what? Next they'll think it's OK to just toss anything on the street, and so on, until society has lost all sense of decency. I've heard that Hitler got his start throwing cigarettes on the sidewalk.

[RosieWolf]

Originally posted by Alphagene You all should probably stop staring at the sidewalk anyway. It's poor posture and you might accidentally walk into a pole. [/B]

ROFL.. too funny.. ty Alphagene for the mental picture of all these non-smoking, ex-litterbugs bumping into light poles on the sidewalk..

I am a smoker, for past 28 yrs. Had a lung test couple weeks ago, my lungs are as clear as someone who has never smoked.. just lucky I reckon.

Am guilty of throwing butts out the window, on the sidewalk, and in the river. Am also guilty of field-stripping them and putting the filter's in my pocket.. what a mess in the washer when I forget to take them out.. yikes. I put my smokes out everytime I find a 'butt-can' in front of a store, rather than the sidewalk.. no butt-can.. on the ground it goes, then i pick up the butt and put it in the trashcan--which is always available somewhere close. Worked several years in convenience stores.. would much rather sweep the butts up outside, rather than trying to get them out of the lineoleum inside.. and yep.. had several sand-filled cans right by the door, but the parking lot is still the most popular place for cig'butts.

I used to ride a motorcycle, and can't count the times a live butt hit me full in the face.. without my full-face helmet and face shield on, I would have some really ugly burn marks on me.. however, am guilty of throwing my butts at a moron who is tailgating me, regardless of what he's riding/driving. Hitting the brakes really quick is not nearly as effective as a live cigarette aimed at you.

Will I quit smoking?.. maybe.. someday.. when I get tired of paying 3 bucks a pack or stop receiving the pleasure lighting up with a cold beer chaser gives me. Until then, I'll continue to respect your right not to smell my smoke, if you'll respect my right to do what pleases me.

My 2cents. (and that's about what it's worth).. :rolleyes:

[Crunchy Frog]

Originally posted by waterj2
I've heard that Hitler got his start throwing cigarettes on the sidewalk.

LOL! I just may add that to my sig line!

BTW, I have to agree with Alphagene that this is a truly mundane thing to get your panties all bunched up over. Companies are dumping chemicals and waste into our water supply, but let's get all pissy over butts on the sidewalk. Throw them in the trash can so they can be taken to the landfills where they belong, as long as I don't have to look at them!

It bothers you so much? You cry over how bad it makes the city look? Then pick it up. You shouldn't have to clean up after other people, but if you see litter and leave it, aren't you then as bad as the litterer?

"Oh Martha, look at that litter. What a shame. People should know better."
"Are you going to pick it up then?"
"Oh God no, I'll just walk past it and bitch about for a while."

And for you smokers rationalizing tossing them on the ground. It is not that difficult to strip your cigarette. Simply squeeze the end of the filter and roll it between your fingers until the burning embers fall out. It is easy and painless. You now have a butt that poses no danger of burning anything. Throw it away or keep it until you can.

[Alphagene]

Originally posted by Crunchy Frog
Simply squeeze the end of the filter and roll it between your fingers until the burning embers fall out.
No no no, Crunch! That's a horrible suggestion! Those embers will fall out on to the sidewalk!!!!! Everyone's embers will be all over the sidewalk. I don't want to have to see that! It will look like Pompeii out there!

[Silver Fire]

It's littering. Yep it's illegal and, if a certain cop (or two, as my case may be) decides to be an asshole, you can get a ticket for it. Just so you all know.

[Tzel]

You fucking cigarette tossers that think the world is your ashtray. Quit trying to rationalize your behavior with all sorts of idiotic arguments. It could be worse? So could a lot of things. Why can't I throw my trash on your living room floor? Come on, if you don't like your living room floor all dirty, then pick up my garbage! You all sound like a bunch of children. "If you don't like what I'm doing, you fix it! You clean up after me. In fact, maybe I'll unbuckle my pants and take a healthy dump right here on the sidewalk. What? You don't like that? Where's your pooper scooper, hypocrite?"

Alphagene, Crunchy Frog, and others. You really amaze me with your blinding stupidity.

[Crunchy Frog]

Tzel
"Alphagene, Crunchy Frog, and others. You really amaze me with your blinding stupidity."

Hey dipshit, didn't you read my whole post? I said you shouldn't have to clean up after me. I was trying to show what a non-topic this is, and at the same time I was stating both sides of the issues. Let me restate my last paragraph since you seemed to have missed it the first time:

And for you smokers rationalizing tossing them on the ground. It is not that difficult to strip your cigarette. Simply squeeze the end of the filter and roll it between your fingers until the burning embers fall out. It is easy and painless. You now have a butt that poses no danger of burning anything. Throw it away or keep it until you can.

Right here, I tell smokers how easy it is to clean up after themselves, so we have no excuse for not doing it. Email me your mailing address would you so I can send you a check to help you buy that clue you need.

My point was neither side is 100% in the right on this. Non-litterers: Throw the butts away so they can go to landfills, they still won't bio-degrade, but at least I don't have to see them. (And we all know looking at cig butts causing cancer of the eyes.)
Butt tossers: There's no ash can and I don't want to wait till I can find one and what if there's a fire?

Next time try reading the entire post before you reply.

[Alphagene]

And while you're working on your post reading comprehension, Tzel, I recommend looking back at one of mine, too
I'm not a pathological litterbug. But I'll admit, with ciggie butts I occasionally litter... My original post was not intended to be a celebration of littering.
But regardless I will now run around the NYC metro area in a cape and helmet, throwing burning cigarettes everwhere and shouting in a booming voice "Behold! I am Cigarette Tosser! The world is my ashtray!".

I probably won't be crapping on no sidewalks though.

[Mockingbird]

Originally posted by Tzel
You fucking cigarette tossers that think the world is your ashtray. Quit trying to rationalize your behavior with all sorts of idiotic arguments. It could be worse? So could a lot of things. Why can't I throw my trash on your living room floor? Come on, if you don't like your living room floor all dirty, then pick up my garbage! You all sound like a bunch of children. "If you don't like what I'm doing, you fix it! You clean up after me. In fact, maybe I'll unbuckle my pants and take a healthy dump right here on the sidewalk. What? You don't like that? Where's your pooper scooper, hypocrite?"

Alphagene, Crunchy Frog, and others. You really amaze me with your blinding stupidity.

PUH-LEEZE. Cigarette butts are far different than a dog taking a crap on your lawn. Tossing a cigarette butt is often an unconcious act. While definetly thoughtless, it is not the actively rude act that letting your dog crap on someone's lawn is. I've seen dickhead dog owners let their dogs shit wherever they want without cleaning it up. When I've said something about them cleaning it up they either tell me to fuck off or they ignore me and walk away. As if I like accidentally stepping in dog crap.

I think the majority of people who are complaining on this thread are self-righteous former smokers, or a bunch of prisses who think that because they don't like something they can demonize it to death. Grow up and mind your own damn business.

[buffalogal]

Gawd. I was going to make another comment about people tossing butts, but enuf said. All bases have been covered, y'think?

[Tzel]

Posted by Crunchy Frog:

It bothers you so much? You cry over how bad it makes the city look? Then pick it up. You shouldn't have to clean up after other people, but if you see litter and leave it, aren't you then as bad as the litterer?


I was more focusing on this little masterpiece of logic, which seems to divide people into litterers and janitors, and if you're not a janitor, you're as bad as a litterer. Right. I'm going to carry around a trash bag and a pole with a needle so I can clean up every irresponsible smoker's remains. Yep. I want to dedicate every moment of my life to reducing the neverending stream of litter smokers produce.


As for you, Alphagene:

First you post this:

So disposing of the butt on on the sidewalk is often the only real option and hardly makes the smoker an "asshole".


Then, a perfectly plausible option is presented by Myrr21:

You know, it strikes me that something as simple as an empty Altoids tin would be easily portable, non-flammable, and capable of holding a good bit. So this "we'll set the garbage or my pants on fire" defence is pure BS.


And you dismiss it for no reason, simply peppering your response with a few half-hearted witticisms to create an illusion of credibility:

How about this. You stop suggesting Martha Stewart-esque ways for smokers to dispose of their butts when there are no ashtrays and I'll stop suggesting that you find other things to concern yourself with (like, say man's inhumanity towards man) than a few ciggie butts on a sidewalk.

You all should probably stop staring at the sidewalk anyway. It's poor posture and you might accidentally walk into a pole.


Seems to me if you actually did care to reduce your litter output, you might have actually taken this rational solution, but you just insult it and sneak in the old fallacy of pointing out an immeasurably greater problem when it has no bearing whatsoever on the issue to be discussed.

Oh, how I love the Pit.

[Moirai]

You know, in some places the ciggie butt litter got so bad that people did do something about it.

I have lived at the beach my whole life (except for a couple of side-trips). Back in the day, there were ciggie butts EVERYWHERE! It was like people said, "Sand? Ashtray"!

It's not that way anymore, and it's great! I feel like I can take my son out without having him pick up a bunch of butts, or tampons, or whatever things these dipshits are throwing on the ground (within mere feet of a trashcan, BTW).

And to those of you who think it's no big deal for your little piece of litter to hit the ground wherever- FUCK YOU! If everybody thought that, we'd be hip-deep in all kinds of shit. You are a selfish asshole.

I know that sounds kind of 70's, but really- it's called good manners, try it sometime. If your parents didn't raise you better, take it upon yourself.

(and yes, I used to smoke, and no, I didn't feel the need to distribute my butts all over the place)

[Alphagene]

but you just insult it and sneak in the old fallacy of pointing out an immeasurably greater problem when it has no bearing whatsoever on the issue to be discussed.
At this point in the discussion, this whole thing has little to do with logic, Tzel. I know it's a minor infraction. A venial sin. I know it's not right. But I don't do it very often and I hate the self-righteousness of the people who act like I am personally kneeing Mother Earth in the groin. And I'm not an "asshole" for doing it.

it's called good manners, try it sometime. If your parents didn't raise you better, take it upon yourself.
Well aren't you just an adorbale little Paragon of Virtue. Pin a rose on you.

I got news for you, folks, we all do things like this.

Have you ever returned a tape to the video store without rewinding it?
Ever tell your spouse that it was the best sex you ever had but it wasn't?
Ever lie on your resume?
Ever take silverware from a restaurant?
Ever take shampoo from a hotel room?
Ever take office supplies from work?
Ever surf the internet on company time?
Ever fabricate a story about why you were speeding to a police officer?
Ever gossip about someone?
Ever "borrow" your roomate's sweater without asking?
Ever buy scalped tickets?
Ever steal cable?
Ever download a copyrighted MP3?
Ever copy a CD you bought and gave the copy to a friend?

These are all Bad Things. Many of them make other people's lives slightly more unpleasant. They're not Terribly Evil Things, but they are Bad Things. And we know we shouldn't do them, we know it's not logical or rational but we do them.

Hey I'm honest about the Little Bad Things I do. And I know they're bad. But if any of you never do Little Bad Things then I welcome you to get all holier-than-thou on me. Until then, find a way to deal with my brutal honesty and perhaps be more honest with youselves.

[Edited by Alphagene on 10-16-2000 at 04:28 PM]

[zwaldd]

it is pointless to debate butt littering with those whose brains are held hostage by nicotine, so i'm directing this to the non-smokers:

nicotine addiction is a bizarre sickness. it makes otherwise normal people defend obviously inconsiderate behavior. they can complain about b.o., farts, and other bad smells, while remaining oblivious to the eye watering stench they inflict on others. they can point to any other litter besides cigarette butts and say 'bad'. it's the nicotine talking, not the person inside. cigarettes work on people like puppeteers. i've seen people who claim to be 'environmentalists' flick a piece of styrofoam into a lake, just because it came from the back of a cigarette.

that's why hypnosis sometimes works to quit smoking - it's like they're brainwashed. you can't just convince these folks that butt littering is no better than beer can littering through simple reason.

[Alphagene]

Wow. That's quite a wonderful unsubstantiated overgeneralization you got there. So much for "Love the sinner, hate the sin".

I'm just amazed that so many non-smokers here think they are superior human beings just because they don't smoke. You all must lead perfect righteous law-abiding lives to criticize me at the intensity that you are.

And people think I'm the asshole.

[Edited by Alphagene on 10-16-2000 at 05:41 PM]

[zwaldd]

nicotine! quit this soul so he may see the litter!
the power of rational thought compels you!
<flicking holy water>

[Alphagene]

Yeah, thanks.

zwaldd, who thinks that all smokers are brainwashed puppets is offering me the gift rational thought.
And EJsGirl, who made a backhanded insult about my parents is offering me a lesson about common courtesy.

This thread is like a glass house community populated by the Professional Stone Throwers Association.

[zwaldd]

hah! i offer you nothing nicotine!
my gift is for your host, alphagene!
release his tongue, that he may speak!
begone vile demon, by the end of the week!

(from the phillip morris book of incantations)

[Strider]

Persoanlly, what I find selfish and inconsiderate are the asshole non-smokers who are standing next to me, while I smoke, and are breathing. I mean, HELLO, I paid $5 for my pack of cigs and there you are inhaling my smoke for free. I need to start charging people who stand around me. A nickel a breath.

Al- I must say I agree with you 200%. I would love to say things like that but I am just not nearly as eloquent.

-N

[yosemite]

I think it's been covered before, but I have to chime in:

It's rude to flick your butt on the ground. Use an Altoids can, as has been suggested. If it's rude and inconsiderate to throw gum wrappers on the ground, or other small bits of trash, it's also rude to flick a butt. It's tacky, and shitty, and everything else mentioned here previously. Since when is willfully littering an act that we shouldn't get pissed about?

No, it's not a major crime to toss a gum wrapper, or a cig butt. But it's lazy, and NEEDLESS. Sometimes the inconsiderate acts done out of laziness are the ones that piss us off the most.

I also have to add - I am just amazed at some of you smokers. You strain to find reasons why it's no biggie that you flick your butts. It's pathetic, really. Would you strain so hard to find a reason why it's not a big deal to throw candy wrappers on the ground, or other small trash items? Would you try so hard to list other things that are worse than flicking butts? Please. You know it's a lazy, shitty thing to do. And we know it. Please stop embarrassing yourself by trying to dismiss it.

[Falcon]

Oh for the love of GOD. If seeing butts on the ground pisses you nonsmokers off so much, PICK THEM UP! Then we're all happy. I don't see where it's necessary for all smokers to start carrying around ashtrays or Altoids cans to hold their butts. I honestly just don't see where this is a big deal. And FTR, I don't smoke.

Hey Alpha. Doesn't the Gospel according to Jack Lord have something to say on this? ;)

[pldennison]

I disagree, Falcon. I don't think it's reasonable to say that not only do I have to often be in the position of inhaling their foul smoke, now I have to clean up after them, too? Nah. Sorry. I am, in the vernacular, not down with that.

[BoBettie]

I have to chime in once more-
Even when I smoked regularly, I didn't flick butts. I wouldn't do that any more then I would toss a wrapper or other trash. That's just me.

I had a pool party over the summer on my new deck. About two hours after the party started I discovered the smokers were flicking butts off the side of the deck EVEN THOUGH THERE WERE ASHTRAYS GALORE. They were each invited down off the deck to pick up their trash. I told them I assumed they were just keeping them in a convenient spot until they had a chance to clean them up. They did it, and never flicked again. (not from my deck, anyway)

How rude can you be to do that at someones house? This ain't the Wal-Mart parking lot pal. This is my yard! Pick up your goddamned butts, or I'll be kicking YOUR butt the hell out.

Zette

[Missy2U]

No, Alpha, that would make both of us assholes since I SO agree with you. (And no, I'm not going to do a "rosie" and put 800 exclamation points after it - just consider this empathetic.)

Good Lord, talk about some anal retentive people. And you know, Alphagene, while I don't know if you have experienced this, but where I am at, the public ashtrays would be a whole lot more "useable" if those non-smoking jagwads wouldn't use them as their own personal goddamn garbage cans. Hey - jerkoff - put your fucking coffee cup/soda can/wadded up memo/BigMac Wrapper in the GARBAGE CAN - not the ASHTRAY. Ashtrays are NOT FOR YOUR GARBAGE - THEY ARE FOR CIGARETTES. So - all you self righteous better-than-thou cretins - I'll get out of your face when you get out of mine.

Now, gotta run - the "voices" are telling me to go have a cigarette. :rolleyes:

[yosemite]

I'd like to ask all you smokers: If it's "anal retentive" to not like to see people flicking butts, is it also "anal retentive" to not like to see people willfully toss gum wrappers, small scraps of paper, other garbage on the ground? Is the thowing of any small trash item OK in your book? Just because a person is too fricking lazy to dispose of the trash properly? Why is this no big deal? And why, for the love of Pete, when some of us complain about the laziness of the butt-flicker, is your response that we should clean up THEIR mess?

No, flicking butts or any other small trash item is not the WORST thing a person can do. But I do not understand why some of you would so vehemently try to dismiss it, and insist that it is someone else's "problem" if they don't like it. This is the epitome of absurd. Come on. You know it's lazy. You know that if you really wanted to, you could dispose of your butts in a more considerate manner. But instead of doing that, you point the finger at other people, and complain about them for not liking YOUR laziness?

Geez. You know, it isn't the fact that you are too fricking lazy to clean up after yourself that appalls me this much. It's that you are so vehemently trying to dismiss it (and call anyone who disagrees with you "anal") that appalls me.

[Alphagene]

I swear, so many of you are missing my whole point. Please read my last post on the first page. We all do things that are occasioanlly lazy or wrong. Have you ever gossiped about someone, yosemite? Almost everyone does. But if you have, you know it's wrong and yet you do it anyway. And there's no way you can honestly say you'll never do it again. You can say you'll try, but sometimes its just too tempting. It's a slightly bad thing you do occasionally. A slightly bad thing that can really annoy or hurt other people.

I do bad stuff like that too, yosemite. I just had the balls to admit to it her in a public thread.

I'm going to say this one more time for the sake of the few crusading antismoking ecolovers who refuse to comprehend the point of my rant:

I'm not trying to absolve myself of the littering I have done or will do, I am merely asking if all of you are so pure of conscience in in your own lives that you can criticize me for it at the level of ferocity that you have.

If I opened a thread admitting that I occasioanlly return videos to Blockbuster without rewinding them there is no way I would get this hostility from posters. No threads saying "You rude asshole FUCKER!!!!! Some poor video store worker at MINUMUM WAGE now has to spend time rewinding that tape just because you're too damn LAZY!!!! It's called COMMON COURTESY!!!"

I think people just have a massive thorny bug up their butt about smokers. Sure a lot smokers are rude. But this thread has shown me that a lot of nonsmokers are presumptuous, rude and self-righteous. But I'm enough of a human being that I won't let that cloud my judgement of the nice nonsmokers I know.

Put that in your little Altoid tin.

[yosemite]

And I think you smokers are missing the point as well.

Let's just leave this topic at littering, and not bring up returning Blockbuster tapes, or copying MP3s. Which are completely different "minor transgressions" than the one we are talking about. The issue at hand is the idea that some people consistently and willfully throw small bits of trash on the ground. And that is LITTERING. That's basically what this discussion is about.

Most people (well, at least most people I know) feel that there is a stigma attached to willfully littering. As a small child it is drummed into you, to NOT LITTER. Right? And when you see a sidewalk, or a beach covered with other people's crap, is annoys you. It makes a place look dirty and tacky. As a child I remember hearing my parents lament at the littered sidewalk, or beach, and telling me to never leave my litter on the ground like that. And they'd comment on the lazy assholes who littered (using a word other than "asshole", but I got the drift.) It is one of the most base things that most people (at least most people I know) get drummed into them, at an early age. CLEAN UP AFTER YOURSELF. So, when some grown adults act as if they don't have to be bothered, expect some of us to be mightily irritated.

It isn't just a smoking thing, at least not for me. I would get just as irritated if someone had a habit of willfully tossing their gum wrappers on the ground. And I would get livid if the gum-wrapper-tosser had this cavalier attitude, suggesting that it was someone else's problem if they didn't like seeing the litter's gum wrappers all over the damned ground. It would make me see red if the gum-wrapper-thrower snottily suggested that I should clean up their gum wrappers if it bothered me so much. At that point, it wouldn't be so much about their thoughtlessness of throwing the gum wrapper on the ground that would piss me off. It would be their crappy attitude about the whole thing.

[Alphagene]

yosemite, I agree with you that littering is a crappy thing to do. I think this is the eighth or ninth time I've said this in this thread. I'll say it in bold yet again.

I know littering is wrong.

But I'll probably wind up littering it again. Not gratitously, not to be egregious, or rude, or disrespectful but because I realize I am a human being with flaws.

The issue at hand is the idea that some people consistently and willfully throw small bits of trash on the ground.
No. That is the issue that some people are obessessing over. Litter and how rude and inhuman it is. Like I said, I agree its is wrong. You think littering is bad and so do I. So there really is no more argument there.

I am suggesting that the real issue here is the bizarre overzealous anger I am receiving for admitting that I occasionally litter. Anger that seems hypocritcal knowing that other fellow imperfect human beings themselves consciously commit crimes of this magnitude every day. Crimes that other people have to clean up after, even if just in a metaphorical sense.

It is this hypocricy that I have yet to see addressed directly by anyone. Every time I post saying "I know I occasionally litter, and I know it's wrong, but we all occasionally do bad things. So don't act all morally superior."

And the only response I get is "BUT LITTERING IS WRONG, ASSHOLE!"

Well, duh.

[Edited by Alphagene on 10-17-2000 at 12:53 PM]

[oldscratch]

As someone who smokes occasionally, albeit non-filtered cigarettes. I generally break up the end before I do something with them. Let, me add a Bay Area perspective. Now, in some cities, it might be fine to dump them in the gutters. Here, most drains run directly into the bay. If you dump butts on the sidewalk (which is actually better than the gutter or street) or in the gutter, it will most likely end up in the bay. I can understand some people getting upset about that.

[yosemite]

It is this hypocricy that I have yet to see addressed by anyone as of yet. Every time I post saying "I know I occasionally litter, and I know it's wrong, but we all occasionally do bad things. So don't act all morally superior."

It would be easier to do that, if I didn't read statements like "if it bothers you up so much, clean it up yourself", and "stop being so anal", and "put that in your Altoid tin". Sure, we all are flawed. Sure, we all do flawed things. But most of us do not get the snotty "attitude" that I see here, when confronted about it. I don't think I've ever thoughtlessly thrown a gum wrapper on the ground (I was raised right!) but if I did, I sure as Hell wouldn't get all snotty about it, when someone called me on it. I'd just gulp and say "Yep, that was bad, I won't do it again. Really." I'd never dream of telling the person who bitched to me about it that they should clean it up themselves. I'd never call them "anal". It's not "anal" to hate to see trash all over the ground, at least not in my book.

In regards to the smoking hypocricy issue...I, personally, am not going to get all that more riled up about cig butts compared to gum wrappers. They both bother me. They both are an act of tackiness, and laziness. As I said, I was raised to believe that littering is a major "minor transgression". Or maybe it's because I like to go to the beach, or a National Park (like Yosemite - and you know how seriously I take Yosemite!) and not see bits of trash on the ground.

[Alphagene]

oldscratch:
I can understand that too. But my point is that to assume that the person who flicked that butt is without doubt a "lazy" "brainwashed" "egregious" "asshole" who lacks "common courtesy" I think is a bit over the top.

[Alphagene]

Originally posted by yosemitebabe
But most of us do not get the snotty "attitude" that I see here, when confronted about it.
That's funny, that's exactly the way I'd descibe the responses I've gotten from the non-smokers, starting right from the snotty topic of this thread. "Cigarette assholes"? Spare me! He started a snotty thread so I gave a snotty response. I responded in kind, I didn't draw first blood.

Fight snot with snot, I always say.

[zwaldd]

I can understand that too. But my point is that to assume that the person who flicked that butt is without doubt a "lazy" "brainwashed" "egregious" "asshole" who lacks "common courtesy" I think is a bit over the top.
spoken like a "lazy" "brainwashed" "egregious" "asshole" who lacks "common courtesy".

[yosemite]

"Gum wrapper assholes", or "Cigarette assholes". The way I see it, the name would fit, either way. In my book, anyway. If a person is too frigging lazy to throw away their trash, they are being (at least in that area) an asshole. Not a 100% total asshole forever, but for that moment, in that instance.

It isn't as if the OP was titled "Smokers are assholes". Maybe that was implied - but the title was in regards to the actual item being thrown away. In this case, cigarettes.

If I were confronted because I was too lazy to throw away my gum wrappers, I would just feel like I'd have to take the snottiness. Just gulp, and take it. Even if the person were a being snotty about it. I mean, if I were too frigging lazy to throw my own trash away, and instead I just tossed it on the ground, I guess I would think I'd be asking for a little snottiness to come my way. I mean, I was raised to know better. And it isn't as if NOT throwing your trash on the ground is such an arduous and difficult thing to do. It's done out of laziness. So I don't have a lot of sympathy for a person who gets their feathers ruffled because someone dares to be "snotty" to them. They are a lazy dolt who cannot manage to clean up after themselves, and yet they are upset because someone call them on it? Puleeze.

[Alphagene]

[Moderating mode ON]

Gratiuitous insults are not tolerated in the Pit, zwaldd. We got a lively discussion as it is, we don't need trollish posts to stir things up further. Don't do it again.

[Moderating mode OFF]

[Alphagene]

Originally posted by yosemitebabe
If I were confronted because I was too lazy to throw away my gum wrappers, I would just feel like I'd have to take the snottiness. Just gulp, and take it.
See I disagree. If I were asked flat out, why do you litter with your ciggie butts occasionally? I'd admit that it is sometimes because I'm in a rush or because sometimes I'm just not thinking. That doesn't justify it, but that's my rationale.

On the other hand, if someone accuse me of being an asshole for occasionally doing that (which the topic absolutely suggests, unless he means that cigarettes themselves possess assholes) than I can't help be be snotty about it in return and point out that his snottiness could easily be applied to his own crimes.

[Dogzilla]

Originally posted by Alphagene
[QUOTE]Fight snot with snot, I always say.

Yeah. Some people think it's funny, but it'snot.

BTW, as an adamantly polite smoker, I just wanted to register my resentment toward anyone in this thread who has generalized and lumped all smokers together as lazy assholes. A couple people have attempted to defend some of us polite smokers, but I just want to say this:

I dress out my butts too. If I go to the beach, I pack 'em out and throw away the butts along with the potato chip wrappers, soda cans and other garbage. I don't want manatees choking on my trash -- nor do I want them choking on yours. I will take the time to pick up your fishing lines and other miscellaneous crap at the beach because I care about nature. I do not smoke in non-smokers' presence (unless you're in my house -- but I will refrain in my own car with a non-smoker, because you have nowhere to go.)

I would sooner be dragged naked, screaming and covered in olive oil through the streets of Baghdad than to toss my butts out the car window, on the sidewalk or into a [gasp] gutter, where it will find its way into the water supply. My car smells "like ass." So sue me. Or don't ride with me. As a smoker, I resent being generalized as a lazy asshole when I will take the time to clean up after the lazy asshole smokers.

So, continue on with your respective, ridiculous rants, but remember one thing: semantics matter. Please be specific: are you referring to ALL smokers, all non-smokers, or just the lazy asshole smokers, or just the nazi-born-again non-smokers (ex-smokers)?

At least then I'll know at whom I should toss my lit fucking butts while I'm cruising down the freeway in my ass-smelling car...

[Crunchy Frog]

This is still going on?

The reason smokers are getting defensive is because smokers were singled out. The OP didn't mention littering it mentioned cigarette butts. Actually, the OP wasn't that bad, except for the title, which isn't "Littering Assholes" - it's "Cigarette Assholes" The smokers are the assholes for dropping their butts; not people who drop a gum wrapper, not people toss a soda can, just the smokers. The smokers who have done this have (that I've seen) all admitted it and no one has claimed it is right. Then we go on to say that we should not be singled out as everyone does something along those lines, maybe not littering, but everyone does something wrong.

What if I start a thread called "Car driving assholes" and rail against all who speed. Do you know how many deaths are caused on the highway each year from speeders? It's against the law, it endangers lives, but I'll bet everyone here who drives has done it at some point or another. Does that make you an asshole? No, it makes you flawed just like the rest of us. It's forgivable.

My favorite bit though, was Montfort's later post.
"I made the OP because I see butts all the time in DC, and they ruin what is actually a rather lovely city. And, they're everywhere, on the sidewalks, in the gutters. And people don't even think twice about dropping them, much less snuffing them out by stomping on them with their shoe."

I have traveled extensively throughout the states, and have been to DC (Andrews AFB) about 4 or 5 times. It is a lovely city, but to say it's the cigarette butts that ruin it? In all the places I've been to with friedns while in the AF, we never left thinking, "Wow, what a wonderful city. Too bad about all those cigarette butts though. Really ruined the place for me. The Smithsonian just wasn't worth wading through all those butts."

You want to know what ruins visiting an otherwise lovely city for me? The run down ghettos. The drug dealers on the corners. Graffiti marking gangland territory.

I think what Alpha and I are trying to get the rest of you to understand is, yes, we know littering is wrong. We're claiming mea culpa there. But put things in perspective. Everybody does things that are wrong, but in the scheme of things these are minor infractions. They are not unforgivable, do not make people assholes, and not worthy of such vehemence.

[yosemite]

I think I was just raised differently on this littering issue. I guess I had parents with a "tree hugger" bent, because it was REALLY drummed into my head to not litter. I can easily claim that I do NOT, ever litter "occasionally". I know I have probably littered some in my entire lifetime, but it would not be qualified as "occasionally". Never merely because I was "in a rush", or "wasn't thinking". Nope, it doesn't compute. I cannot fathom how someone could be so thoughtless that they would do this. I see no excuse for this. It's just lazy, and it DOES impact on others, and on our environment, and it ticks me off. And I'm obviously not the only one that is ticked off. And as I said before, my heart does not bleed with sympathy because some lazy litterer type gets their feathers ruffled over any "snottiness" directed at them. Too bad. Boo hoo.

"Asshole" is a term that can be used liberally these days. The person who cut me off in traffic the other day? Asshole. The person who farted in the elevator? Asshole. The person who got something from the freezer section of the grocery store and then changed their mind, but didn't return it to the frozen section? Asshole. No, not a 100% total asshole forever, but for that inconsiderate or lazy act, an asshole, for that moment. I have no problem using that term, in that context.

[zwaldd]

Moderating mode ON]

Gratiuitous insults are not tolerated in the Pit, zwaldd. We got a lively discussion as it is, we don't need trollish posts to stir things up further. Don't do it again.

[Moderating mode OFF]
to the alphagene the moderator: you're right, sorry about that.

to alphagene the litterbug: but it was just a little gratuitous insult.
you litter, i hurl gratuitous insults. we both have our little vices. what's the problem? after all, i'm just one person hurling one insult.
(get it? i'm making an analogy here, ignoring my own advice and attempting to use logical reasoning.)

[Alphagene]

Well, yosemite, regardless of your upbringing, I'm glad that the discussion between you and I here has been quite snot-free. And I appreciate that.

I do sympathize a bit with the snottiness of the non-smokers, I've known plenty of rude smokers myself. Plus, there are posters on this board (like the Serlin clones) who view smoking as their religion. Their post rants are so pro-smoking that they practically advocate exhaling their smoke down the gullets of pregnant women so their children will be born knowing the joys of nicotine.

I assure you I am not that way. I take no joy or pride in my littering, I just dutifully and honestly report its existence.

Pray for me. ;)

[Alphagene]

Originally posted by zwaldd
to the alphagene the moderator: you're right, sorry about that.
No prob. Go and sin no more.

Originally posted by zwaldd
you litter, i hurl gratuitous insults. we both have our little vices. what's the problem? after all, i'm just one person hurling one insult.
(get it? i'm making an analogy here, ignoring my own advice and attempting to use logical reasoning.)
Heh. Cute. But unlike the real world, where ciggie littering is rarely prosecuted, we can and do "prosecute" for gratuitous insults at the SDMB.

If you continuously threw out insults like that, it doesn't make you an evil human being, it just makes you a bad poster and an occasional sinner.

I will pray for your soul, too.

[Strider]

Now that the flames have kinda died down, I just wanted to say one thing to yosemitebabe.

I completely understand what you are saying, but I am in the same boat as Crunchy and Alf, meaning I know it's wrong, but I will admit I do it. (Mt first post in here was a little hostile because things were hostile at the time and archer really pissed me off. It's a lot nicer now.) But what I do want to point out is that there is a difference between throwing away your garbage and throwing away your cig butts. First, let me emphasize, it is a small difference, but a difference none the less. The difference is that your soda can / bag of chips / water bottle is not on fire at the time that you want to get rid of it. So when Alf said, I'd admit that it is sometimes because I'm in a rush or because sometimes I'm just not thinking it's not becuase he does not want to throw it away, but I would guess that it is more along the lines of, "Hey this thing is on fire and I want to get rid of it. Well, let see, I can't put it in a trash can unless I want to get arrested for arson, and I'll miss my bus if I hunt around for an ashtray, so I'll just throw it into the gutter." (Alf, I am not trying to put words in your mouth, really, I am just guessing that this is what you meant)

Basically, what I am trying to say is that, it's not like smokers are just standing around trying not to properly throw away their butts. It's more like, it's a real pain in the ass sometimes trying to find an ashtray and sometimes you just don't have the time (or in some cases they are just lazy) to hunt around to find one. And as I said before, I am not going to carry around an Altoids can or any other can because I simply do not have the room in my pockets to put it.

This is no way meant as an excuse, and I am not trying to start another fight or anything. I am just trying to point out that some of us try, just not hard enough.

-N

[yosemite]

I am just trying to point out that some of us try, just not hard enough.

Yeah, I understand. But with any habit comes the responsibility to deal with all aspects of the habit. When I chew gum, I make sure I keep a wrapper or a piece of paper with me, so I can dispose of the chewed gum in the paper/wrapper. And then put the gum-in-paper in my pocket, waiting to find a trash can to dispose it in. It's just part of the routine for my gum-chewing habit.

I think the suggestions here (Altoids tin, etc.) to solve the "burning" aspect of a cigarrete has already been covered here. There is a viable way to safely and considerately dispose of a burning cig butt. And it is my opinion that there is no real excuse for smokers to not use these options.

But, I am not trying to rag on you here. You admit that some smokers do not try hard enough.

[black rabbit]

It keeps my rent down. Plus, I know a guy who drives a street sweeper for the city sanitation department. If it weren't for me and my asshole compadres, he'd be outta a job. Vroom vroom.

Ever not recycle a soda can? You could very well carry that can around you until you came across a recycling bin, but you threw it in the regular trash instead. Shame on you. Next time, why not carry a paper bag at all times, a sort of "personal recycling container," so can can dispose of your empties properly when practicable? Huh?

[Myrr21]

I take no joy or pride in my littering, I just dutifully and honestly report its existence.
Which the less delerious among us never contested...

[neutron star]

Because whatever brain dead halfwit who designed the '92 Tercel did it in such a way that the ashtray cannot be pulled out if there is something in the cupholder. And, for some reason, my wife freaks out if I put a cig out in an old soda can. Those are reasons for my actions, not justifications. I know it's wrong and I feel bad when I do it.

I don't feel all that bad, however, when I toss a butt in a store parking lot. A street sweeper will be along withing a couple days to pick it up.

I use the abformentioned Altoids tin when I'm out in the woods or on water.

Alphagene : stop being so goddamned funny! My coworkers are started to look at me funny (well, the ones who aren't asleep, anyway). This is one of the few SDMB threads that actually made me laugh out loud.

[Tzel]

Originally posted by black455


Ever not recycle a soda can? You could very well carry that can around you until you came across a recycling bin, but you threw it in the regular trash instead. Shame on you. Next time, why not carry a paper bag at all times, a sort of "personal recycling container," so can can dispose of your empties properly when practicable? Huh?

I do. When I drink out of a recyclable can or bottle, I will keep it in my backpack or pocket until I find a suitable recycling facility.

[Tzel]

Yeah, yeah, Alphagene, I see your points. I just get annoyed by this kind of carelessness. It seems that even people who would not otherwise litter think nothing of projecting that little butt directly onto the ground, followed by the admittedly satisfying little flash of embers.

I apologize for the blinding stupidity comment. Just blowin' off a little steam. Didn't really mean it, and it's always fun to take a shot at a moderator when possible.

[Montfort]

Originally posted by Alphagene
That's funny, that's exactly the way I'd descibe the responses I've gotten from the non-smokers, starting right from the snotty topic of this thread. "Cigarette assholes"? Spare me! He started a snotty thread so I gave a snotty response. I responded in kind, I didn't draw first blood.

Fight snot with snot, I always say.
Snot not, 'twas merely a pun. Cigarette butts, cigarette assholes.

I was referring to the remains of cigarettes, not the _________ (insert noun here) who drop them to the ground.

And, this was originally in GQ, so I meant no insult, but in retrospect, I wish I had started it here in the Pit with a flame. Butt-flicking is so callously done that it's become second nature to smokers, and I just don't understand how they could consciously litter like that.

[Crunchy Frog]

Originally posted by Montfort
Butt-flicking is so callously done that it's become second nature to smokers, and I just don't understand how they could consciously litter like that.

That statment seems somewhat contradictory to me. It's second nature, they don't think about it, so it is not a conscious act. I never recall thinking, "Hey that sidewalk is a good place to drop my smoke now that I'm done with it." It's a thoughtless act, not a conscious act. It is a habit, just like when I pop my knuckles. I know it bugs the hell out of some people, but I don't realize I've done it until someone points it out to me.

[MadHatter]

Although I don't really agree with Alphagene's arguement, I just want to say that I respect him(her?) for being able to accept some personal criticism here and there without:

a. Closing the thread.
b. Deleting the thread
c. Removing posts from the thread
d. Displaying and abusing the 'moderator power' that he(she?) has.

If someone like... oh I don't know... *cough* manhattan *cough* was moderator of this forum, this thread would have been locked and buried within seconds of the first *hint* of criticism going his way.

Keep up the good work Alphagene.

[Alphagene]

Originally posted by Montfort
Snot not, 'twas merely a pun. Cigarette butts, cigarette assholes.
Ahhhh. Ya know much later after posting my snot comment I did realize that that could have been the meaning. Hmph. My bad.

[Tzel]

Originally posted by MadHatter

If someone like... oh I don't know... *cough* manhattan *cough* was moderator of this forum, this thread would have been locked and buried within seconds of the first *hint* of criticism going his way.


Well, to be fair, manhattan is the moderator of the General Questions Forum and any flames against him there are by their very nature off-topic, so he would have the right to close them

[Pit Meister]

Are a few butts really so terrible?

I toss mine all the time. They disappear from view in the sea of trash.

[RosieWolf]

1. Woman Disfigured By Pickle Files Suit.

TRUTH. Veronica Martin of Knoxville, Tennessee claims that she was permanently scarred when a hot pickle from a McDonald's hamburger fell on her chin. She's suing for $110,000, saying that the pickle also caused her physical and mental pain. Her husband Darrin has filed suit for $15,000 because he "has been deprived of the services and consortium of his wife (source: Tennessean)." Veronica also wants every Big Mac to have a warning label:)

2. Vegetarian Claims Health Damaged By "Second-Hand Meat."

TRUTH. A vegetarian at an outdoor festival in downtown Eugene, Oregon complained about the pervasive smell of cooked meat wafting from food stalls serving everything from lamb gyros to teriyaki chicken and rice. A food columnist in this heavily New Age community agreed that steps should be taken to "protect us all from second-hand meat in the future (source: Deep Dish)."


[end of hijack]

[beagledave]

Originally posted by RosieWolf
[

TRUTH. A vegetarian at an outdoor festival in downtown Eugene, Oregon complained about the pervasive smell of cooked meat wafting from food stalls serving everything from lamb gyros to teriyaki chicken and rice. A food columnist in this heavily New Age community agreed that steps should be taken to "protect us all from second-hand meat in the future (source: Deep Dish)."


[end of hijack]


and your point is?.....

oh I get it, you're using a thread about cig littering to equate people concerned about 2nd hand smoke to whack jobs who dont like the smell of meat....btw there is another thread about second hand smoke in great debates...you may wish to make this point in that thread

[Diane]

:::insert Twilight Zone theme music here:::

[BoBettie]

Maybe she thought the thread title was invoking her.

[Crunchy Frog]

[hijack]
1. Woman Handicapped By Brain Posts at SDMB.

TRUTH. RosieWolf of Trailer Park, Trashland claims that she was handicapped when her mother gave birth to her. She's suing for $110, saying that her father/uncle and mother/sister should have known better than to use the condom he found in the dumpster. This birth has caused her mental pain as she has such difficulty understanding what's goin on around her. The SDMB is also filing suit for $150,000, for being subjected to mental strain by having RosieWolf and her kin on these boards.

[end of hijack]

[Alphagene]

Originally posted by MadHatter
someone like... oh I don't know... *cough* manhattan *cough* was moderator of this forum, this thread would have been locked and buried within seconds of the first *hint* of criticism going his way.
Tzel's right. "Criticism" in general is not appropriate for GQ and thus he wouldn't be doing his job if he didn't move threads containing it.

As usual, if you have a beef with a Mod's activities feel free to start your own thread here in the Pit about them. That's what it's here for.

But if you want to convince people he's doing a subpar job, you should maybe have some evidence of this rather than just a few *coughs*.

Otherwise, take some Robitussin.

[Shatzi]

I agree with ya wholeheartedly, Montfort. This isn't about one measly little cigarette butt on the sidewalk people, these thing BUILD UP. I mean, look alongside the highway next time you are slowed down in traffic. Not a square foot of roadside space is spared the blemish or two (or three, or four, or five....) of a cigarette butt. What is so goddamned hard about keeping them in your car? Get yourself a little ashtray and dump them when you get home. Butts ARE indeed litter and their presence brings an atmosphere of run-down...ness. It's just plain yuky, okay!
So be nice citizens and keep sidewalks and grass nice and clean and pretty :)

[Timon of Athens]

Here's my problem with the whole thing. I live on the ground floor of an apartment building and curse the inconsiderate people who live over me that happen to smoke.

"Hey jerk-off, do you think that when you toss that thing off your deck it just disappears? No, it lands in front of or on my deck enriching my view of nature. And no they do not bio-degrade. I get so tired of that pile of trash in front of me I pick it up. It's you deck, put an ashtray on it if you don't allow people to smoke inside you white trash aliamentary canal.

PS. Fuck you!"

I won't start on 3am insta-parties on a Thursday night.

[Zenster]

I think that an important point is still being missed when cigarette butts are compared to other forms of litter. Sure, a butt may be much smaller that a pop can or a chip bag, but how many people drink twenty or forty cans of pop each day? How many people eat twenty or forty bags of chips each day? (Saaaay, maybe we've gotten to the heart of why American kids are so overweight!)

The point that I made in my original post has largely been ignored. Most smokers who do drop their butts, do so regularly. (Those of you who are responsible about it have my high praise.) I have met very few smokers who are scrupulous about the disposal of their butts. I think a safe number would be about 90% of all smokers carelessly discard their butts (anyone gotta cite?).

To repeat my statement. Think about the tons of cigarette butts being deposited onto the face of this earth each and every day and the impact that it has. Yes, other people litter as well, but none so consistently as smokers. It is just this simple. A dozen or more times each day the typical smoker lights up, and where does the end product go? Too often directly into the environment. It is a matter of statistics that make the issue of littering butts such a problem. Almost no one walks around drinking twenty sodas a day and littering the cans.

To claim, "Oh, it's so small...", just isn't valid. To hope that people will build up an immunity to seeing garbage on the ground is akin to hoping that people will get used tagging. "It's not going to stop, so get used to it." That sort of reasoning is how we got to the point of living in a litter choked and graffiti spattered society.

Alphagene, you have tempered your original statement enough to where I'm not going to dump on you further (I know that's a big relief), but I really have to agree with Yosemitebabe, littering just plain sucks, period! It is just another form of socially incohesive behavior, like not using your turn signals.

To those of you who have suggested that we pick up after you. I suggest that you bite my clank.

[The Pit and The Pendulum]

The stupid neighbors of mine have a new game.
They throw their butts into piles of leaves drifting around the building. The don't even look! Just off the balcony, and when I rush out to catch them, they are back inside.
So far we haven't had a fire, but the next time I can see one for sure I'm calling the firehouse to see what they can do about it.

[Montfort]

Y'know, my OP was about people who drop butts on sidewalks. That's sociological, and I don't regret asking it in GQ.

But, people who are so stupid as to possibly start a fire by dropping butts in bushes, or out a car window, are the reason threads like this get moved to the Pit.

[milroyj]

You know, the anti-smokers have brought this upon themselves, to some extent. With all that "Clean Indoor Air Act" nonsense. When I started on my job ten years ago, I smoked at my desk. Guess where the butts went? Into an ashtray, which was later emptied into a garbage can. Now I have to go outside in the rain/snow/ice/sub-zero temperatures. If I am shivering cold in the loading dock for cripes sake, I might occasionally miss the ashtray. Sue me.

[beagledave]

Originally posted by milroyj
You know, the anti-smokers have brought this upon themselves, to some extent. With all that "Clean Indoor Air Act" nonsense.

Yeah..I mean who the hell thinks that they have the right to breathe clean air..jeez ....

Try again milroyj...that line of reasoning is making you look like an idiot

[milroyj]

Why don't you try again, Beagleboy? Guess what? When you force all smokers to go outside, there's going to be more cigarette butts outside. What's so hard to comprehend about that?

[yosemite]

Originally posted by milroyj
Why don't you try again, Beagleboy? Guess what? When you force all smokers to go outside, there's going to be more cigarette butts outside. What's so hard to comprehend about that? \

"Force"? Meaning, you have NO CHOICE in the matter? Like, oh my gosh, you will DIE if you don't have a smoke, so you are FORCED to go outside?

No one forces you to do anything. No one forced you to start smoking. No one forces you to smoke, or not smoke, or smoke while standing on your head, or smoke outside. You decided that you wanted to smoke, and if the only option was outside, that's where you took yourself to smoke.

I also might add, with every habit, comes a responsibility for that habit.

You may bitch about not being able to smoke at your desk, but c'mon. Does that excuse you (or anyone else) for "missing" an ashtray? Is that a viable excuse for littering? Did anyone force you to take on a habit that happens to include nasty butts? When you take on such a habit, you'd better be prepared to dispose if these butts in a considerate manner, no matter what the circumstances. (As in using an Altoids Tin.)

[Montfort]

Originally posted by milroyj
Why don't you try again, Beagleboy? Guess what? When you force all smokers to go outside, there's going to be more cigarette butts outside. What's so hard to comprehend about that?
Umm, did you occasionally miss the ashtray when you were inside? If so, I hope you picked it up before you started a fire.

Now, why can't you do that outside?

[beagledave]

Originally posted by milroyj
Why don't you try again, Beagleboy? Guess what? When you force all smokers to go outside, there's going to be more cigarette butts outside. What's so hard to comprehend about that?

Whats hard to comprehend is how someone can take a courtesy issue (throwing litter, including butts in a trash bin) and turn it into a diatribe against clean air legislation.....something that I DON'T see the other smokers in this thread doing

[Typo Negative]

I attend NA meetings in California. As you may know, it is illegal to smoke in any public building in the state. As such, we no longer have smoking meetings.

The majority of NA meetings are held in churches, more often than not in their sunday school meeting rooms and what-not. We place 3 or 4 empty coffee cans around the grounds as ashtrays. Some of our smokers seem to think it's much cooler to flick them onto the grass or grind them into the sidewalk with their shoe. NA Group leaders always announce that the cans are there to collect the butts, so pleeeaaaase use them. But some people just gotta be kkkeeewwwwlll.

We have actually lost meeting places because of this! Churches have asked that we not return! The stated reason (as if general slovenliness were not enough) is that the children find the butts on the ground and put them in their mouths!!!!

Next time I see one of the cool dudes miss the butt can, I'm gonna kick him in the shin!

[Una Persson]

There really must be something more at work here, IMO. I have witnessed the most die-hard-marching-in-the-streets-Death-to-Bush-type enviromentalists you will ever meet who think nothing of spinning the still-burning butts into the grass, or dropping them on a sidewalk. And I also have witnessed these same people dumping their car ashtrays onto the parking lot, without a care in the world.

I almost think it's some sort of mental block resulting from the nicotene use, or a religious thing, or both. It's like a cry for help perhaps, I don't know.

I don't, and will never smoke. I have nothing against smokers, and I also believe tobacco should remain legal at the current level. I even don't mind being with smokers for a time while they smoke (especially pipes, which can smell wonderful). But the butt-dumping and tossing is indefensible IMO. And just leads to a more negative sterotype of the group.

And you know? Due to indoor clean air rules/laws, I rarely see smokers smoking alone anywhere in my city. Surely some sort of peer pressure could be applied so these rude persons would dispose of their butts properly?

[zwaldd]

I almost think it's some sort of mental block resulting from the nicotene use
this is exactly what i was suggesting on page 2. it is why there's no use logically arguing this topic. butt flickers can't connect the act of dropping butts on the ground with the concept of littering. you may as well argue that walking is the same as littering. it will seem just as meaningless to them. since it's unlikely that litter laws will ever be strictly enforced, the only solution to the problem is to make sure cleanup crews are doing their jobs.

[Moirai]

Wow, back from 2 weeks' vacation, and this thread is still smokin'.

Gosh, I guess it's just too quaint to have manners these days.

A "paragon of virtue?" No, not the way I see it. But if you mean that I don't lie, steal, cheat, litter or whatever, well I don't. I try to do a little better than that today. Sorry if I offended any litterers or their parents, but I've gotta call 'em like I see 'em.

So Alphagene, where's my rose? ;)

And spooje- considering the capacity of the newly sober, it is not at all surprising that they can't find the butt can. We have a "butt girl" to help them keep us from getting evicted from our space.

[Strider]

Het zwaldd, you know what you can do? Go suck on a big fat donkey dick, you asshole. You can take your little "brainwashed" idea and stick it up your ass. I did not bother to reply to the other five times you posted this shit in this thread because I did not feel like beating you down, but now I am tired of it. Almost every single smoker in this thread falls into one of three catagories:

Catagory One: Acknowledges that flicking their butt is littering and tries to be responsible when they can, but they are not going to spend too much time looking for an ashtray.
Catagory Two: Claims that they do in fact properly dispose of all butts.
Catagory Three: Admit they flick them but did not post again, so who knows if they are responsible about it or not.

The break down
Cat. 1:
Me
Alph
oldscratch
tradesilicon
RosieWolf

Cat. 2:
Dogzilla
Zette
neutron star
Sn-man
xizor
Lsura
EJsGirl

Cat. 3:
Pit Meister
Missy2U
black455
milroyj

And of all of these people I believe two or three of them defended it like you claim that all smokers do. So your little idea is completely false and besides that, completely stupid and ignorant. You sound like that prick in the Penis thread that has been getting so much shit the past couple days.

Now on the off chance that you were joking around then I do apologize and I retract my statements, but otherwise I must reiterate, PISS OFF, you ignorant buffoon (how does one spell buffoon?)!!

-N
(My apologies to anyone I missed, or mis-catagorized. I am bored at work so this gave me something to do, but I am not that bored that I am going to proof read the list.)

[Lynn Bodoni]

Originally posted by milroyj
You know, the anti-smokers have brought this upon themselves, to some extent. With all that "Clean Indoor Air Act" nonsense. When I started on my job ten years ago, I smoked at my desk. Guess where the butts went? Into an ashtray, which was later emptied into a garbage can. Now I have to go outside in the rain/snow/ice/sub-zero temperatures. If I am shivering cold in the loading dock for cripes sake, I might occasionally miss the ashtray. Sue me.

Actually, I think that the SMOKERS brought this on themselves. While there are some considerate smokers, the majority of them don't seem to care if they cause other people discomfort or distress. So what if the person at the next desk is just recovering from bronchitis? The smoker wants to smoke! So now all the smokers, polite and impolite, get to go where they will cause less inconvenience to other people.

I went to a medical building today, and had to pass a smoky haze to get to the door, even though there are signs posted saying that smoking is prohibited within 50 feet or so. The people who ignore the signs are the ones who are gonna complain the loudest when it becomes illegal to smoke in public OUTDOORS as well as indoors.

[TVeblen]

Okay, emotions run high on this, but it's useful to distinguish stress from trauma, and damage from insult...

Air pollutants are rotten, but they abound. I've had a pernicous, low-grade sinus infection for 6 months from purely natural pollens. That's my quirk--and it ain't fun. Others are triggered by all kinds of impurities.

The fact is the natural world abounds with itchy impurities, and so does the man-made world.

The wheezing, lung-grabbing, wanna-die syndrome is not an excuse for scapegoating! I'm sorry, but targeting shivering smokers outside a doorway, while buses, cars, etc. drive by unnoticed is scapegoating.

Rude smokers deserve to be asked, with icy courtesy, to refrain from smogging enclosed, immediate air space. Smokers do not deserve to laden with leper-like UNCLEAN responsibility for every lung problem going.

This is a witch-hunt. Blaming shivering smokers by a bus stop is intellectual cowardice. Want pollutants? Forget second hand smoke; look at the vehicles. Concerned about litter? Don't overlook the fast-food detritus.

I'm not excusing, just drawing the line on PC scapegoating.

Veb

[MadHatter]

Originally posted by Strider
Het zwaldd, you know what you can do? Go suck on a big fat donkey dick, you asshole. You can take your little "brainwashed" idea and stick it up your ass. I did not bother to reply to the other five times you posted this shit in this thread because I did not feel like beating you down, but now I am tired of it. Almost every single smoker in this thread falls into one of three catagories:

Catagory One: Acknowledges that flicking their butt is littering and tries to be responsible when they can, but they are not going to spend too much time looking for an ashtray.
Catagory Two: Claims that they do in fact properly dispose of all butts.
Catagory Three: Admit they flick them but did not post again, so who knows if they are responsible about it or not.


Actually Strider, zwaldd is dead right. How can you possibly try and tell someone who is addicted to nicotine that what they littering their butts is wrong? That would be like telling Stalin after WW2 that he can put an end to this "Communist nonsense" right away. The reason you get so angry and defensive about the topic is because every time the thought enters your mind that you might have to start desposing of every single cigarette appropriately, it makes your blood run cold.

You still don't agree with this? Well where are all the non-smokers in here flocking to your defence? The only people who seem to think littering their butts is ok is those who are addicted to smoking. Why aren't the non-smokers coming on here and saying "Throwing cigarette butts to the ground is not littering. I agree with the smokers." I'll tell you why. 'There brain is not being held hostage by nicotine'. Yours, quite sadly, is.

[Montfort]

I'm halftempted to ask a Mod to close this, since it's absolutely not what I intended with my OP.

But, I really think that smokers should think about the consequences of their actions. So, I'm going to sleep on it.

Just gain some senses, people. Pick up your damn butts.

[Strider]

This is probably a waste of time since this is the pit and all I'll get for my troubles is a big "fuck you" or something, but I am bored and I am right so off we go...

Actually Strider, zwaldd is dead right. How can you possibly try and tell someone who is addicted to nicotine that what they littering their butts is wrong?

Well first you say, "Littering your butts is wrong." Pretty easy huh?

That would be like telling Stalin after WW2 that he can put an end to this "Communist nonsense" right away.
Take your false and in-appropriate analogy and politely shove it.

The reason you get so angry and defensive about the topic is because every time the thought enters your mind that you might have to start desposing of every single cigarette appropriately, it makes your blood run cold.
Now I remember where I left my "Guide to Strider's brain," I left it at MadHatter's house. Can I have it back? Anyway, as a matter of fact, the reason I got made at zwadda, or whatever the hell the name is, is because he/she stating as fact that all smokers are brainwashed and last time I checked, I was not. I get pissed when people tell me what I think, just like you did here.

You still don't agree with this?
Why should I? You have not given me any kind of valid reason to believe you. And here, I would need some kind of scientific data that shows that nicotine makes me brainwashed. Thank you.

Well where are all the non-smokers in here flocking to your defence?
This is an illogical question that does not apply to this arguement.

The only people who seem to think littering their butts is ok is those who are addicted to smoking.

JESUS CHRIST ON A POPSICLE!! HAVE YOU NOT READ ANY OF THIS THREAD? DID YOU NOT READ MY ABOVE POST? With the exception of two or three people, no one here thinks it is alright to throw their butts on the ground. Almost every single smoker in this thread has acknowledged the fact that it is wrong. How dense is that skull of yours???

Why aren't the non-smokers coming on here and saying "Throwing cigarette butts to the ground is not littering. I agree with the smokers."
First, this argument is made invalid by my answer to your last question. And second, this is again an invalid argument/inappropriate question.

I'll tell you why.

Go ahead but I'll bet your answer is as fucked up as the rest of your post.

'There (Their) brain is not being held hostage by nicotine'.

Just as I thought, a stupid, illogical and ignorant answer. How predictable.

Yours, quite sadly, is.

Let me say again. I have in no way condoned the practice of littering in this thread. I do not think it is right, nor do I think it good. I realise that this detrious is clogging our sewer systems, polluting our rivers and oceans, creating an eye-sore for the anal retentive, and is just bad, M'kay? But also realise that most smokers DO NOT GIVE A FUCK! This is in no way related to nicotine on the brain or any other stupid argument. It is simply apathy. Can you understand that? Some smokers, such as those in catagory 1 and 2 from my last post, do give a fuck, but those smoker's in catagory one are not going to make a big deal about trying to dispose of their butts properly. Do you kow why? Because, and I am guessing here, they probably see it as such an insignificant thing that it is not worth the trouble. I may be wrong about this one part, but being wrong here does not invalidate my whole argument, so don't even go there. This is EXACTLY the same attitude you will probably find with ANYONE who litters in general. They know they should not throw their garbage into nature, but they do it anyway becuase they are lazy. Jesus, I hope this makes it's way into your thick head.

Now fuck off!

-N

[yosemite]

I think the thing that is getting some people's ire up is that while most smokers say "Yeah, littering is bad" many of them follow that sentence with a "But..." (Not ALL, mind you, just some smokers...)

"But they make me smoke outside now"
"But it's on fire!"
"But there is nowhere to put it!"

And on and on. It's not a blanket condemnation of the habit, there are all the excuses, and the "buts" (pardon the pun) and the all-time favorite, "well if it bothers you so much, pick it up!"

I cannot imagine any other types of litterers trying to excuse themselves like this. There is no excuse. It's just lazy. No excuses or whining are needed or accepted. But for some reason, smokers want to come up with these excuses. These lame excuses, or they simply respond with outrage at the concept that their lazy, shitty habit is not pleasing to some. They call the people who do not appreciate their butts "anal". That's the difference (IMO) between smokers and other types of lazy litterers. I don't believe that people who toss gum wrappers would get so outraged when someone pointed out their bad habit to them.

And frankly, I didn't know that smokers in the SDMB would be butt-tossers, before I read this thread. I really expected the intelligent, articulate smokers on SDMB to NOT be the types that would have such an inconsiderate habit of tossing butts. (I guess I should accept that we're all flawed, even on SDMB!) And I certainly didn't expect any smokers here to get such an attitude, when they are called up on it. I figured they'd know better. And that's not because I have some rabid, fervent anti-smoking agenda. It's because I have a rabid, fervent anti-littering agenda. (Just to clear that up. ;))


Strider wrote: But also realise that most smokers DO NOT GIVE A FUCK! This is in no way related to nicotine on the brain or any other stupid argument. It is simply apathy.

Maybe the nicotine induces apathy in smokers! :D

[Strider]

grrrrr....


-N

[Zenster]

Originally posted by Strider
...Now I remember where I left my "Guide to Strider's brain," I left it at MadHatter's house. Can I have it back? (That was pretty funny, unlike your other ranting.)

'There (Their) brain is not being held hostage by nicotine'.

(Calling all spellchecks!)

I realise that this detrious (detritus?) is clogging our sewer systems, polluting our rivers and oceans, creating an eye-sore for the anal retentive (bite me, asshole!), and is just bad, M'kay? But also realise that most smokers DO NOT GIVE A FUCK! This is in no way related to nicotine on the brain or any other stupid argument. It is simply apathy. (Garsh, you mean the same sort of apathy that allows a person to all too often become hopelessly addicted to a destructive habit?) Can you understand that? (Can you?) Now fuck off! (Gee, there's an echo in here.)

Just thought I'd throw some gasoline on the fire...

[zwaldd]

Het zwaldd, you know what you can do? Go suck on a big fat donkey dick, you asshole. You can take your little "brainwashed" idea and stick it up your ass
awwww, did i upset you strider? don't worry, i'm sure you have valid opinions about other stuff, just not on this particular subject.

[Montfort]

Originally posted by yosemitebabe
And frankly, I didn't know that smokers in the SDMB would be butt-tossers, before I read this thread. I really expected the intelligent, articulate smokers on SDMB to NOT be the types that would have such an inconsiderate habit of tossing butts.
And some of them are even moderators! :rolleyes:

[Strider]

Zen:
First. Yah I know, I shouldnt throgh stones at otter peoples for there spelleng when I am not pruf reeding as mooch as I shoold. But give me some credit. I had very few mis-spellings for such a long post.
Second. What the hell was the point of your post? I threw in that little tidbit about anal people on purpose. I figured, for such a long post, I can allow myself one fallacy just for fun. But the rest of your post confuses me. Besides telling me to fuck off at the end, which I could care less about, all you did was comment on how smoker's apathy causes them to become addicted to cigs. Personally this does not apply to me. I smoke because I enjoy it, not because I am addicted. And don't mis-understand, I know that I am addicted to nicotine, I feel it whenever I don't feel like having a cig but my body is calling. I try to resist as much as I can. I smoke for the pleasure, not for the addiction. As I said above, I like the taste, the smell, the feel, etc... I suppose I will need to quit one day, not because I think it is a disgusting habit (which I don't) but because it is rotting my lungs. I wish I didn't though. Some people like fish, calamari, and peas, I like cigs.

And finally, to zwaldd:
Suck my dick. Obviously you are only trying to start a fight and piss me off and I won't let you. So go screw a sloth or something and I'll leave it at that. Or better yet, meet up with that dickhead in the Penis thread, you two are made for each other. Your stupidity and childishness (sp?) truly shows at this momment.

-N

[Alphagene]

Originally posted by Montfort
And some of them are even moderators! :rolleyes:
Geez, bring it up in yet another thread, whydontcha.

Yeah, criticize me all you want for having the balls to admit a venial sin. And keep listening to your copyrighted MP3s and enjoying your pirated software.

Save your :rolleyes: for someone who is actually convinced that you have superior moral standards, Monty.

[Montfort]

Originally posted by Alphagene
Originally posted by Montfort
And some of them are even moderators! :rolleyes:
Geez, bring it up in yet another thread, whydontcha.
Actually, in case you've forgotten, this is the same thread this started in.

I don't have a horse, and even if I did, it's certainly not a moral high horse. Feel free to start a thread flaming people for supposed moral sins -- if I'm accused of one, I'll reply and either defend myself or admit fault.

I know that if I were a smoker and threw my butts on sidewalks, I'd be admitting fault and doing my best to rectify it.

[Alphagene]

Originally posted by Montfort
Actually, in case you've forgotten, this is the same thread this started in.
Yeah but you came out of nowhere to accuse me of backing down nicely here in a completely unrelated thread. And then follow up soon after by reminding everyone here I'm a litterbug back in this thread. Beg pardon, but I thought that a little odd.
I know that if I were a smoker and threw my butts on sidewalks, I'd be admitting fault and doing my best to rectify it.
: pats Monty on the head : Good for you. Here's your merit badge.

Now, I know that if I were someone who committed occasional minor sins (see my previous list) in my day-to-day life (IOW, if I were a human being), I'd admit to myself that I am really no better than someone who occasionally flicks ciggiebutts on the sidewalk and I'd actually be a hypocrite to be overly critical of ciggie-flickers.

This has been my point this whole time and I haven't backed down from it or "shut up" about it at all. In fact I've been repeating it ad nauseam.

I have admitted fault. Do you want me to say that I know that Littering is Wrong again? Even after the seven or eight times I admitted that in this thread alone?

There most be something about the brains of non-smokers and their low levels of nicotine that makes them miss this rather obvious point.

[beagledave]

Originally posted by Alphagene

There most be something about the brains of non-smokers and their low levels of nicotine that makes them miss this rather obvious point.

"Those that do not understand..mock" ;)

[Seen to it already]

I smoke. If you don't like it, then this is for you:

How to inform a non-smoker that he also offends you:
[b] Words of wisdom for SPOOFE Bo Diddly (http://wickedmoon.net/cards/anims/shitanim.gif)

[beagledave]

Originally posted by Seen to it already
I smoke. If you don't like it, then this is for you:

How to inform a non-smoker that he also offends you:
[b] Words of wisdom for SPOOFE Bo Diddly (http://wickedmoon.net/cards/anims/shitanim.gif)

Uh no dumbass...perhaps, I dunno ....read the damn OP? The people expressing an opinion here, are discussing littering...

Smoke all you want...hell cough up a lung, do you really think anyone cares? I honestly don't sit at home at nights praying rthat "seen to it already" gives up smoking...This is not a thread about whether smoking is good or bad, it's a thread about whether littering cig butts is good or bad....add your opinion about THAT notion, and then you'll be on topic..

[milroyj]

Lynn:

Actually, I think that the SMOKERS brought this on themselves. While there are some considerate smokers, the majority of them don't seem to care if they cause other people discomfort or distress. So what if the person at the next desk is just recovering from bronchitis? The smoker wants to smoke! So now all the smokers, polite and impolite, get to go where they will cause less inconvenience to other people.

I went to a medical building today, and had to pass a smoky haze to get to the door, even though there are signs posted saying that smoking is prohibited within 50 feet or so. The people who ignore the signs are the ones who are gonna complain the loudest when it becomes illegal to smoke in public OUTDOORS as well as indoors.

I agree about the smokers huddled around the entrance to the medical building, but only to a point. Yes, ill people shouldn't have to walk through a cloud of some to get in the hospital.

But that's one of the perhaps unitended consequence of the zealous Anti-Smoking lot. Why couldn't there be an smoking lounge for the employees inside the hospital? An enclosed room, where no one else is bothered? Even in the third sub-basement, I don't mind. But to decide that 25% of the adult population has to go outside to partake in a legal habit, and THEN complain about outside smoke and cigarette butts seems a bit much.

PS: YAY TVVeblen! There is a lot of hipocrasy on this issue. Example, five or more years ago, my company divided the cafeteria into smoking and non-smoking sections, including erecting walls to separate them. Then, in the smoking section, they installed a ventilation system that emptied out into the parking lot. Sure enough, people began to complain that they could smell ciggie smoke in the parking lot. Which happened to be 50' from a major road in an industrial park, where 100s of trucks passed and probably 1000s of cars too.

The same people didn't have a problem with the cars and trucks, just the people smoking OUTSIDE on their lunchbreak.

[wolfman]

Well personally I throw my butts on the ground out of spite. Lets say there is a bar owner. He wants to have a bar where people can smoke. And everybody who goes in there is well aware of the fact that people smoking in there, and they can go to a non-smoking bar across the street. But noooooo, we can't let business owners and adults choose for themselves, we have to pass a stupid fucking law that it is illegal to smoke in a public place, and try to make legistation that an adult can't smoke in his own goddamn car. I used to be polite about it and give as much consideration as possible. But fucking do-gooders had to start a pissing war about it, so with every stinking, smoking butt I throw on the pavement, my heart gets a little warmer thinking that soon one of the self-righteous pricks, who decided to limit my personal freedom, will see it and get pissed off.

[douglips]

Originally posted by wolfman
... they can go to a non-smoking bar across the street.

Sorry for the hijack, but I'd never seen a non-smoking bar until California passed that law. Where were all these mythical bars? I actually enjoy going to bars now because I don't come home smelling like an ashtray with bloodshot eyes and a sore throat.

Sure, the market should be allowed to decide these things, but guess what, it didn't. My libertarian head is swelling with cognitive dissonance, but I don't give a shit - I like non-smoking bars and restaurants.

[black rabbit]

PING wolfman:

Get in touch next time you're in Cincinnati... we can go kicking over ashtrays, and then maybe drive down to Eastern Kentucky, where they truly appreciate their state's Second Largest Cash Crop. I pity you people in California.

[Montfort]

Let me get this straight, wolfman. You're willing to litter and potentially start a fire out of spite.

You're mad that there are laws protecting people from the potentially-very-dangerous second hand smoke that is oh-so-common in bars (aka a pub, aka a publick house). So, rather than attempt to repeal the law through the usual legal manners, you choose to protest it by committing a crime (littering) and doing something really stupid (potentially starting a fire). Am I missing something?

:wally

[beagledave]

Originally posted by Montfort
Am I missing something?

:wally


yup...he's a "victim" :rolleyes:

[yosemite]

Next we'll have him whining that he "didn't know" smoking was bad when he started, and now he's hooked, boo hoo.

(That's a tangent, but I've heard that whine more than once from smokers. They are "victims" because they somehow couldn't read the Surgeon General's warning on the side of the pack...)

[milroyj]

Yes, smoking is bad for you. But so are a lot of other things, McDonald's and car exhaust to name two. Do all the anti-smokers eat at McVeggies and take public transportation exclusively? Umm, don't think so. Hypocrisy in action.

[wolfman]

If you call what I did whining, then you have no clue what whining is. I guess you guys have never heard of capitalism, or freedom? When the government starts telling people what they can do, and what they are allowed to put into their bodies, then it is a clear slippery slope. We started by outlawing hard drugs, then softer drugs, and are currently in the process of outlawing smoking. I just can't wait till the government starts telling us that we can eat X with a specific fat content because it is bad for you.
So, rather than attempt to repeal the law through the usual legal manners, you choose to protest it by committing a crime (littering) Can you please give me the address of the ivory tower you live in, I would like to move in it. Comfortable, easy changing of laws has never worked, becuase people won't do a goddamn thing until they are seriously inconvienced. And pissing enough people off about the crap I'm throwing on the street, is the best way I can see to get people to give up restrictions of freedom. My own little form of civil disobedience. Now before anybody jumps off the deep end, I am in no way suggesting that anti-smoking laws are in the same ballpark imperial occupation or slavery, but littering isn't close to destroying large amounts of cargo, or declaring a bloody war. Everything has its own perspective, and I'll fight thought control wherever I choose, especially where it inconviences me.

[yosemite]

Yes, smoking is bad for you. But so are a lot of other things, McDonald's and car exhaust to name two. Do all the anti-smokers eat at McVeggies and take public transportation exclusively? Umm, don't think so. Hypocrisy in action.

Deflecting away from the core issue here. Car exhaust is something that almost everyone is responsible for - we all can point fingers at each other endlessly with that one. So we all have to work on that problem together. Junk food is bad for you, but it doesn't smell, and there is no such thing as "second hand" junk food. Besides, you are trying hard to deflect from the OP, which is about flicking butts.

Hey, I don't care who smokes. I just don't want to see their litter, and I don't want to smell their smoke in an enclosed space. And, pardon me if I don't see smokers as "victims" because they can't spread their smoke everywhere they see fit. And I don't see them as "victims" because they willingly started an expensive habit, and now they are hooked. But hey - as long as they don't whine about their supposed "victimhood", and don't blow smoke in my face, I don't care what they do. If that makes me a "hypocrite"...well, you know where you can stick your butt.

Originally posted by wolfman
And pissing enough people off about the crap I'm throwing on the street, is the best way I can see to get people to give up restrictions of freedom. My own little form of civil disobedience.

Your "protest" is lazy, and boorish, and an exercise in futility. Such childish behavior does nothing to further your "poor me, I'm a victim" cause.

And I do not believe that you are serious in the belief that your pathetic excuse for "protest" will call attention to your "plight". It just makes you look like the lazy, inconsiderate, littering boor that you are. Your behavior merely gives rabid anti-smokers more fuel for their dislike for smokers. If I were a smoker who was considerate in disposing of my butts, I'd be pissed with you. You make all smokers look like lazy louts.

[milroyj]

Yosemitebabe,

I'm sure you're nearly perfect, but you must have at least one bad habit that bugs other people. What are you going to do when the come for you?

He that hath no sin, and all.

[yosemite]

Originally posted by milroyj
Yosemitebabe,

I'm sure you're nearly perfect, but you must have at least one bad habit that bugs other people. What are you going to do when the come for you?

He that hath no sin, and all.



Well, I am certainly not perfect. But as I mentioned before, if I were called on a bad habit like littering, I doubt I'd whine, become outraged, and make excuses for it. It's not so much the bad habit, or the flaws. It's the whining and excuses and the absolute outrage when anyone dares call them on it.

And yeah, it's the "protesting" louts like Wolfman, who flicks his butts because he's angry at the world. I guess because it's not universally enchanted with his smoking. Or something...

Seriously - are you siding with this guy? Are you going to flick butts too, as a form of "civil disobedience"?

[milroyj]

Nah, I'm not siding with this guy. Deliberately littering to make a "point" is not cool.

I'm just saying, if you make everyone go outside to smoke, there's gonna be more cigarrete butts outside.

[yosemite]

Originally posted by milroyj
Nah, I'm not siding with this guy. Deliberately littering to make a "point" is not cool.

Good to know you have some sense in that area! So I am right in supposing that most smokers would not be pleased with his antics?

I'm just saying, if you make everyone go outside to smoke, there's gonna be more cigarrete butts outside.

Well, "make" is not a word I'd use. No one "makes" anyone else smoke. They choose to smoke. Wherever they can, apparently.

I don't buy that smokers are more compelled to flick butts while outside. No considerate person will think that "Well, it's outside" is a viable excuse to drop litter on the ground. There's the ever trusty Altoids tin, and other effective butt-disposal techniques. And, as has been cited here several times, even when there is an ashtray outside, some of the smokers still manage to "miss" it. I don't think they "miss" an ashtray inside as much because they don't want to carpet catching on fire. But outside? I guess they figure it doesn't matter. Well, newsflash: It DOES matter. It's littering, and there's no excuse for it.

[Montfort]

Originally posted by wolfman
Can you please give me the address of the ivory tower you live in, I would like to move in it.
I live in a white apartment, but it's not ivory, nor is it a tower. But, I'm about 15 miles away from the U.S. Capitol building, where laws are made. Although, this is, for better or for worse, a state issue, so go to your state's capitol and complain.

And pick up your trash on the way.

[beagledave]

Originally posted by yosemitebabe

Well, "make" is not a word I'd use. No one "makes" anyone else smoke. They choose to smoke. Wherever they can, apparently.


I enjoy good quality beer...I'm even a home brewer myself. Sometimes when I feel some stress at home, I'll relax with a cold one....can you believe my employer actually MAKES me wait until I'm off work before I enjoy a cold one...geez..the nerve...I think just for spite I'll bring all my bottle caps to work and flick 'em on the front lawn..that'll show 'em ;)

[Chronolicht]

the American public is and why that simian little acephalic ingrate Bush will lead us all to hell. Yes I smoke, yes I rip the burning end off the cigarette with any remaing tobacco and put the filter in my pocket but only if I am in a spot where it won't be picked up by someone who earns their living cleaning up after the public. If no one littered these people would be put out of work. It is a latent beneficial function of littering. Is that incendiary? Too fucking bad. Anyone who hasn't arrived at the conclusion that this subject is pathetically miniscule in relation to the really big issues we face, like overpopulation--any terminal valves who have more than one child who bleat about this problem should be run over with their own SUVs--is caught up in the bread and circus appearances which ensure that we leave nothing more than a smoking husk to our children. Lebensraum disputes, famines, global warming, erosion of civil rights, institutionalized misogny and racism, etc., etc., ad nauseum--take your pick; any of these things are more important than thoughtless people who flick their spent cheroots in the street. Use your fucking heads. Idiots.

[zwaldd]

And finally, to zwaldd:
Suck my dick. Obviously you are only trying to start a fight and piss me off and I won't let you. So go screw a sloth or something and I'll leave it at that. Or better yet, meet up with that dickhead in the Penis thread, you two are made for each other. Your stupidity and childishness (sp?) truly shows at this momment.
take it easy, litter boy - you're going to bust a vein. go have a cigarette.

[yosemite]

Oh, sure. There are far worse things than littering. (That's what this is about, by the way...littering.) But littering is one of those lazy, inconsiderate, needless little annoyances that we needn't face. And when we see supposedly evolved, civilized people act as if "So what? There are far worse things!" when it comes to littering (because, once again, that's essentially what this is about.) I want to ask, "WHAT?!?! WHAT?!?! Were you raised by fricking WOLVES? Pick up after yourselves!"

And the absolute outraged attitude of this last butt-flicker (well, he flicks his butts sometimes...) is what I am talking about. Kudos to you for disposing of your litter some of the time. Really, good for you. But you know, just because there are some poor working schlubs out there that are paid some miserable wage to PICK UP YOUR GARBAGE doesn't mean you have to give them "extra" work. They have enough other slobs to clean up after. Are you proud you are one of these slobs as well? Hey, since they are apparently there to pick up after the likes of you, why don't you throw all your other garbage on the ground as well? Why stop at butts?

[beagledave]

Originally posted by Chronolicht
Anyone who hasn't arrived at the conclusion that this subject is pathetically miniscule in relation to the really big issues we face, like overpopulation--

Ahh yes, the old argument that there are BIGGER problems in the world, so we dare not waste any time discussing anything but those bigger problems....

I'm guessing you never complain to any of your friends at the bar, work or gym about anything EXCEPT the above mentioned major problems in the world...you never complain about the way people drive...or loud music blaring in your neighborhood..or shitty service from stores...or when streets dont get plowed out in a reasonable amount of time....you ONLY discuss major global problems...etc

Funny, I looked at Montfort's original post (and similar posts) and don't recall any attempt to equate this with problems like world hunger or overpopulation.....

[Chronolicht]

And the absolute outraged attitude of this last butt-flicker (well, he flicks his butts sometimes...) is what I am talking about. Kudos to you for disposing of your litter some of the time. Really, good for you. But you know, just because there are some poor working schlubs out there that are paid some miserable wage to PICK UP YOUR GARBAGE doesn't mean you have
to give them "extra" work. They have enough other slobs to clean up after. Are you proud you are one of these slobs as
well? Hey, since they are apparently there to pick up after the likes of you, why don't you throw all your other garbage on the ground as well? Why stop at butts?

In fact, your post will make me think twice about flicking my butts anywhere anymore. But your final sentence is a totalization of the problem which obscures a more gentle truth. We all do things which aren't good for each other or ourselves. We also make accomodations quite readily for own shortcomings and are averse to extending the same generosity to others. I have a friend who makes a nice living wage cleaning the concourses and walkways at a major West coast university. That's all he does. He makes about six hundred after tax dollars a week and has benefits. Not great, not too shabby. He ain't no schlub neither. He would be unemployed if no one littered though. It's honest work. He does a good job. It is a worthy undertaking. Calling him a schlub isn't very nice, but it serves a function for you.
But if you are concerned about contamination of the environment why not talk about burning coal or assholes dumping motor oil down the drain or all the packaging you throw in the trash or many other things? I agree that littering is bad but as far as social pathologies go, it is tres petit, like you. Your last post, though you didn't know it at the time, was intended to make you feel better about yourself. You are secure in that you are now quite decisively a better person than I am. I defer to your superiority in awe and devotion. How ironic that your missive would have the beneficial unintended consequence of making me think twice about littering!

[yosemite]

Originally posted by Chronolicht
I have a friend who makes a nice living wage cleaning the concourses and walkways at a major West coast university. That's all he does. ... Calling him a schlub isn't very nice, but it serves a function for you.

I am a working "schlub" myself, so no, I am not intending to use the term in a derogatory way. I come from a long line of "schlubs", thank you. And I am glad that your friend makes a good living. Not everyone in his line of work does, though. Besides, you are skirting the issue - does your friend THANK YOU when you add extra trash to the ground? Is his job in that much danger that every little bit helps? Does he encourage you to litter, so he'll have job security? Do all smokers "owe it" to guys like your friend to keep on littering? Is that what you are implying?
But if you are concerned about contamination of the environment why not talk about burning coal or assholes dumping motor oil down the drain or all the packaging you throw in the trash or many other things?
What? Is this the old tactic of "Why are you bitching, about this, while there are more IMPORTANT things to bitch about"? Because we already covered that, hun.

I agree that littering is bad but as far as social pathologies go, it is tres petit, like you.

As I have mentioned previously in this thread, it isn't so much that flicking butts is SOOO bad, it's the outraged and indignant attitude of smokers when they are confronted with it. That's what rankles. We are all flawed, but at least we should have the guts and take it when we are called up on one of our tacky, lazy habits. But what we are seeing on this thread is that some of you cannot manage to do that. You have to get indignant, and point to global warming, or whatever, rather than just admit it's a lazy, inexcusable habit that you could stop, if you wanted to. Your last post, though you didn't know it at the time, was intended to make you feel better about yourself.

Oh, this is toooo rich! Now you are analyzing me? Your little condescending crap about "you didn't know it at the time..." Could you be more of a condescending windbag? This is hilarous. Honey, my last post didn't make me "feel better about myself". However, your last post made me laugh! The gall! The victimized smoker's outrage! What entertainment! :D

You are secure in that you are now quite decisively a better person than I am.

:rolleyes: Oh, that bites. You know, the sarcasm. Oh oh oh. I am soooo crushed. You seem worried that some of us feel like we are "better" than you are. Get over it, honey.

[Chronolicht]

self righteousness in your little busybody tirade about jerks who flick their butts everywhere? Get real. Of course it's wrong to throw trash of any sort on the ground. I am the first to admit it. Where is the victimized smoker's outrage? I don't get that at all. What I do get is that your rankled attitude is exactly analogous to the demented accomodations to slovenliness that the smokers have thrust forth. The absence of courage you find so distasteful gels perfectly with your need to upbrade others for their bad habit. The logic is symmetrical and tautologous. You need each other.
Now let me help you off that proud steed and let's have a smoke, there, Miss Manners. Oooh! Sorry! Did I burn you?
"As I have mentioned previously in this thread, it isn't so much that flicking butts is SOOO bad, it's the outraged and
indignant attitude of smokers when they are confronted with it. That's what rankles. We are all flawed, but at least we
should have the guts and take it when we are called up on one of our tacky, lazy habits. But what we are seeing on this
thread is that some of you cannot manage to do that. You have to get indignant, and point to global warming, or
whatever, rather than just admit it's a lazy, inexcusable habit that you could stop, if you wanted to."
I don't give piss christ what you think about me, you holier-than-thou little Martinette.

[Chronolicht]

"Besides, you are skirting the issue - does your friend THANK YOU when you add extra trash to the ground? Is his job in
that much danger that every little bit helps? Does he encourage you to litter, so he'll have job security? Do all smokers "owe it" to guys like your friend to keep on littering? Is that what you are implying?

Not only are you a little busybody control freak, you are none too bright. Should he thank me? What does gratitude have to do with it? The simple fact is that people litter. People are going to continue to litter. To say that something which actually exists shouldn't won't change it. If you analyze littering, one of the things you come up with is that littering has an aspect which isn't entirely bad. I am not saying that one should litter. Just that if no one did, then people would be put out of work. Just lookin' on the bright side is all. Ideally (never never land) people wouldn't litter and ideally, people would take stock of their own defects and work on them, rather than seeking to get other's comportment to conform to what they consider to be right.

[yosemite]

Originally posted by Chronolicht
Where is the victimized smoker's outrage?

It is where you point fingers away from yourself, and where you bring up all the ills of the world, as if to imply that everyone is picking on "poor li'l old victimized you" when they should be worrying about more important things. What I do get is that your rankled attitude is exactly analogous to the demented accomodations to slovenliness that the smokers have thrust forth. The absence of courage you find so distasteful gels perfectly with your need to upbrade others for their bad habit. The logic is symmetrical and tautologous. You need each other.

Yep. Yep. Yep. Pompous windbag. The epitome of pompous windbag. Oh. My. Gosh. How hilarious! :D

I see you didn't answer the question I had about your friend . DO smokers "owe it" to folks like him to keep on flicking butts? That is what you are implying, you know.

[/quote]Now let me help you off that proud steed and let's have a smoke, there, Miss Manners. Oooh! Sorry! Did I burn you?[/quote]

Oh my. That was more of your stinging sarcasm, wasn't it? Oh wow. That was a zinger! :rolleyes:

"As I have mentioned previously in this thread, it isn't so much that flicking butts is SOOO bad, it's the outraged and
indignant attitude of smokers when they are confronted with it. That's what rankl...."

Could you do everyone a huuuuge favor and learn how to use the quote function? Please?
I don't give piss christ what you think about me, you holier-than-thou little Martinette.

Yeah. Right. That is why you keep on mentioning it (I didn't start that line of thinking, you did.) And noooo - you don't care at ALL. That's why you are almost having a shit hemorrhage on this thread.

[yosemite]

Whoops! Simulpost.

I see you are getting more and more pompous and windbag-esque, though. More shit hemorrhages, too.

And, please. The quote function. It is your friend.

[Chronolicht]

Just because you think that something is implied doesn't mean it is. Of course I am not implying that I should be thanked for littering. To draw this inference is absurd. I wish that you would take a little more effort to come up with a rational refutation of what I have been saying than just quoting me (with no small dexterity! Damn you are a good quoter) and saying that I am pompous. And no, I am not angry. I deal with these kinds of cognitive distrotions all the time. The fact that you haven't been able to address what I have been saying is de facto proof that my assertions are true. Now use your little noggy or I won't play anymore.

[yosemite]

Originally posted by Chronolicht
Just because you think that something is implied doesn't mean it is. Of course I am not implying that I should be thanked for littering. To draw this inference is absurd.

Well, my dear, (using that clever quote function again) here is what you wrote previously. Why wouldn't I see this as an excuse for flicking butts?

If no one littered these people would be put out of work. It is a latent beneficial function of littering.

Yeah, all those janitors have you to thank for their jobs! So keep on flickin'! They need you!


I wish that you would take a little more effort to come up with a rational refutation of what I have been saying than just quoting me (with no small dexterity! Damn you are a good quoter) and saying that I am pompous.


You ARE pompous. Your rambling, verbose rantings are evidence of that. And if you'll notice, a lot of Dopers use the quote function. You might try it sometime.

And no, I am not angry.

Oh, nooooo. You weren't angry when you wrote this:
Use your fucking heads. Idiots.
Or this:I don't give piss christ what you think about me, you holier-than-thou little Martinette.
Or this:Not only are you a little busybody control freak, you are none too bright.

Nope. No anger there. None at all. :rolleyes:


I deal with these kinds of cognitive distrotions all the time. The fact that you haven't been able to address what I have been saying is de facto proof that my assertions are true. Now use your little noggy or I won't play anymore.

What EXACTLY are you "trying to address"? That you are not a pompous windbag? (That last quote takes the cake, by the way.) That we are not "better" than you? (Since apparently that possibility vexes you.) That you are doing a service to society by giving more work to janitors? That we should worry only about global warming, and not pick on poor, long-suffering victimized smokers who are too fricking lazy to use an ashtray? WHAT?

[Montfort]

I can't believe this is up to four pages. Let's drive for five, people!

When I was a child, my mother taught me to pick up things that I drop on the ground.

She also taught me not to litter.

What did your mothers teach you, butt-droppers?

[Chronolicht]

.

[Montfort]

No, Chronolicht, I'm not going to let you get away with that one. Take responsibility for your actions.

Pick up your damn (cigarette) butts. And, if you really care about the decline of your ass, work out, too.

[Chronolicht]

I actually pocketed all my spent sticks today. One small step for Montfort...
It's still bread and circus to me though.

[Montfort]

One small step for man, one giant step for mankind.

(Or something like that.)

We only need 47 more views to bump this to 3000 views. Get curious, people!

[mnemosyne]

This thread is a bit ridiculous at times, but i agree with the OP, at least to a certain extent. Cigarette buts all over the place are not a pretty sight, and if there's an alternate way to dispose of them, then please do! Perhaps carrying butts around in your pocket all day isn't that pleasant a deal, so it's understandable that most people won't. (Though I still call it littering...)

What gets me, though, is people (they do this on my campus all the time) who huddle around an entrance-way to a building to smoke, then throw their butts down when there are "Butt-Stop" ashtrays right next to them. For this, there is NO excuse. The ashtrays were put there for a reason, USE THEM! It can't be argued that it's "going out of their way" to dispose of the butts (especially since I've seen people go 10 flights of stairs out of their way just to smoke the damn cigarette).

As a non-smoker, I don't like having to walk across an entrance-way cluttered with butts. Don't get me started on the smoke cloud I have to go through...I just wish there was some way to get people to smoke away from doorways in bad weather so that non-smokers don't have to walk through the smoke. Kinda contradicts the idea of "smoke-free" buildings....

[Montfort]

Originally posted by mnemosyne
What gets me, though, is people (they do this on my campus all the time) who huddle around an entrance-way to a building to smoke, then throw their butts down when there are "Butt-Stop" ashtrays right next to them. For this, there is NO excuse. The ashtrays were put there for a reason, USE THEM!
Amen. I work in the "Golden Triange" area of Washington, DC, which is basically a corporate neighbourhood promoting itself as a clean, safe, and convenient place for businesses to locate themselves. They have maps to show that you are in the Golden Triangle area, people in black and gold jackets standing around to help people with directions in the area.

And, most importantly, every trashcan has an ashtray right next to it. Of course, at any given time, there are more butts on the ground in the vicinity of the ashtray than in the ashtray. Sheesh.