Flower garden questions

[Sattua]

I've just gotten a real job and bought a house. Closing will be in the middle of July, so I'll basically miss this summer's gardening. I will, though, want to put in some bulbs this Fall.

I've never had a garden of my own, so I need advice. The flower border will be along the back of my house, which faces south, and possibly around the corners of the east and west sides. I want to pack it with all flowers, for a cottage-style look. I'm not interested in wasting space on greenery. I am in zone 5, probably the warmer part of zone 5 (central Illinois, if you must know).

My first question is: what does one do about really big bulbs? If I put in daffodils or the kind of tulips that are likely to come back, then do I just lose that garden space for the summer? Can you plant Spring and Summer bulbs among each other, counting on them to not crowd each other because they don't bloom at the same time? That doesn't sound quite right to me.

In general, the flowers I'm interest in are: the frilly kinds of tulips that are really good for only one year, possibly some daffodils (maybe.), peony, begonia, dahlia, gladioli, hardy geranium, hollyhock, dianthus, shasta daisy, foxglove, snapdragon, pansy, and viola. I know that that's a mixture of annuals and perennials, bulbs and self-seeding, early middle and late. So... I suppose I'm just asking for a shout-out from anyone who feels they have something important to tell me about all this.

I also want to put in one or two raised beds for herbs and tomatoes. And maybe cucumbers and eggplant and peppers. And strawberries.

[Harmonious Discord]

Yes you can plant stuff with dafadils and the like. They occupy the lower 12 to 18 inches. Plant stuff like asian and tiger lilies, in a densly planted dafidil bed. I have some things that worked great for years, but I won't be listing stuff at this point. I can get back to you later.

[Kalhoun]

When you buy bulbs, buy things that bloom at different times so you always have something going. Daffodils come up before tulips, which come up before lillies, irises, etc. However, you may not want to do just bulbs. There are other perrenials that you can put in that will bloom at different times. Also, you can fill in some spots with annuals, as well. I'm not really good at this stuff because I'm in a very shady lot; but there's lots of color to be had if you have a lot of sun.

[jsgoddess]

In general, the flowers I'm interest in are: the frilly kinds of tulips that are really good for only one year, possibly some daffodils (maybe.), peony, begonia, dahlia, gladioli, hardy geranium, hollyhock, dianthus, shasta daisy, foxglove, snapdragon, pansy, and viola. I know that that's a mixture of annuals and perennials, bulbs and self-seeding, early middle and late. So... I suppose I'm just asking for a shout-out from anyone who feels they have something important to tell me about all this.

I also want to put in one or two raised beds for herbs and tomatoes. And maybe cucumbers and eggplant and peppers. And strawberries.

I am far from an expert and am just learning as I go along, so I'll share what I do know.

After (all?) bulbs come up and the flowers die, you need to allow the greenery to hang around to restock the bulb. The energy stored in the bulb needs to be replenished before it can bloom again. This can mean a really ugly mass of dying vegetation that you'll need to plant around to disguise.

Tulips are a pain in the ass in my experience. I think other people have great success with them, but I find them to be extremely untrustworthy damned flowers.

Daffodils and gladioli I have little experience with.

Peonies are gorgeous. They are also quite large and the flowers require staking or caging if you want them to remain upright.

Hardy geranium is a great little plant.

Hollyhock and foxglove both can/will require staking.

Dianthus in my experience prefers a bit of alkalinity in the soil. We have acid soil (yay!), so we have to add some limestone to get it to flourish. On the other hand, peonies like acid soil, so you won't want the limestone near them.

Becky shasta daisies are probably my second favorite flowers. They will grow huge. We planted one that was about 4 inches across. Now it's a mass about 3 feet across, and it will be nearly 4 feet tall later in the year. We just planted another shasta, called "Ice Star," with a puffy white flower that's already taller than the Beckys.

Other possible flowers you could consider: lillies, daylillies, sea thrift (I think this looks like a fuzzy monster with googly eyes), English daisies.

Other plants that would give you variety and color in addition to flowers: russian sage, coral bells, sedum, artemisia.

There are some small shrubs that can also give you variety and color in addition to flowers and can be pruned to make sure they don't grow too large, like some weigela (there are types with variegated leaves or dark red/purple leaves), cotoneaster (berries), some barberry, dwarf azalea, etc.

[Hanna]

Peonies also can take years to establish. I have some plants that I got from a friend who was moving and they've been in the ground here for 10 years, and only in the last few years have they been putting on any type of display.

Daffs are great interplanted with daylilies. By the time the daffs are done and their foliage starts to look ratty the daylily foliage is coming up. The daylilies will crowd out the daffs in a few years time, so plan on digging/dividing those after 5 years or so.

One of my biggest gardening mistakes has been planting reseeders. I have purple conflower/prarie coneflower and those purple globe thistles everywhere. Check that, or be vigilant on cutting off spent flower heads.

[freckafree]

I'm a big fan of campanula. There are a gazillion species. I have Campanula takesimana (Kent bellflower). It's bee-yoo-tee-ful! Glossy violet blue bell-shaped flowers. Very easy to grow. It benefits from some support as the flowering stems tend to flop. It's a good cut flower. There are shorter species of campanula that are good for edging.

Phlox panniuclata is good for that cottage garden look and it smells good, too!

I also like caryopteris (bluebeard or blue mist spirea). Great color in late summer when lots of other things have pooped out. The bees love it.

And speaking of late summer...plant some asters, too!

[Sattua]

Ah yes! Campanula. I'm definitely interested in those, especially the cup-and-saucer variety.

Maybe I'm not so interested in tulips, after all. It's just nice to have something in the Spring, before the serious flowers get going.

Can't wait till the house inspection, when I'll measure everything and figure out how much space I have.

[ouryL]

Queen Anne's Lace is NOT a pretty flowering plant!!! :mad: :mad: :mad:

[Harmonious Discord]

For a bed that flowers much of the year, you can try this.
You'll need a bed about 3 and a half feet deep.
In the back plant half with asiatic lily, the other half in tiger lily.
In the middle plant iris.
In the front some 6" to 12" annual lke marigold or border dahlia.
You can dig the border dahlia in the fall and save them for next year's use.

You can work in clumps of daffodils in the midle zone where there is space between the clumps of iris. You can work some into the zone with the asiatic lily also. Don't plant them in the front zone.

My daffodils have been storing food for monthes now, and yesterday I trimmed the leaves to 8 or 10 inches. They flower profusly doing this every year. They also are short enough that the other plant greatly hide the trimmed leaves. I told you not to plant them in the tiger lilies because the tiger lilies out grow the daffodils before they can flower.

A oriental poppy or two can be put into the mix also.

First the daffodils flower.
Second the iris and poppy flower.
Third the asiatic lily flower.
Forth the tiger lily flower.

The hollyhocks don't always need staking. Last year I had a three year old hollyhock grow to 10 foot and 4 inches. There were three main trunks and the strongest wind storm only tilted it 6 inches which is almost no effect. The flowers were about 6 to 8 inches accross. I found out something about their flowering. They have pairs of buds and flower from the bottom up, then when the flowers are open half way up the trunk the second flower starts opening at the bottom.
Due to a rodent and bad weather, that one died this spring, but I have two others that are not likely to get that type of size this year.

[Sattua]

I dislike lilies, iris, marigolds, and globe allium. Specifically. Sorry :p

[twickster]

I strongly encourage you to not do anything major in the garden for a full year -- wait and see what you've already got before you start digging new beds, putting in perennials, etc. You can also spend the time doing some reading, looking at magazines (someone might be able to recommend a good one ... **angelic smiley**), talk with gardeners, etc., before you get started.

[Harmonious Discord]

Sattua indicated starting a fall planted garden I believe. Spending the summer getting beds ready for fall is a good idea. Having a soil test done will help you know what can grow and what you need to do.

[Sattua]

I strongly encourage you to not do anything major in the garden for a full year -- wait and see what you've already got before you start digging new beds, putting in perennials, etc. You can also spend the time doing some reading, looking at magazines (someone might be able to recommend a good one ... **angelic smiley**), talk with gardeners, etc., before you get started.

So recommend, darling!

What I have in the way of landscaping is, and I say this authoritatively, nothing. I know it's nothing because there is a border full of rocks in the front, and only grass in the back. There are noooooo legacy flowers here, I promise you.

And--preparing soil this summer for planting in the fall and spring, checkity. Advice gratefully noted. Maybe I can get compost going, too.

[twickster]

So recommend, darling!
If you'd like to know the name of the one I edit, PM me. :D

And you're right, I read the OP carelessly -- you did specify that you weren't planning to start with anything but a few daffodils.

Bulbs for fall planting: daffodils, tulips (if you treat them as annuals and don't expect them to come back, you might enjoy them more), hyacinths, crocuses, etc. Trees and bushes are also better with fall planting. Most other things can wait till spring.

Yes, prepping beds is good. And yes, you can start a compost pile the minute you move in. Compost is your friend, and it's not a mysterious process.

Re: the rest of your list -- dahlias, glads, begonias (plus cannas) are tender bulbs, they need to be lifted (dug up and stored in a frost-free place over the winter). Hollyhocks are biennials; a year of growth then a year of bloom. Foxgloves are also biennials -- also sweet William, etc. These can be okay if you start two clumps in alternate years and let them self-seed -- one will be in bloom one year, the other the other.

Sweet Williams, by the way, are a type of dianthus -- as are carnations and pinks. You may be thinking of the little 6" puppies in shades of red and pink -- those are annuals, though they sometimes last more than one season. (We had a pretty mild winter here, and I had a couple of clumps come back.) Carnations are perennials.

Hardy geraniums are perennials -- I adore them, have six or eight different varieties in my tiny garden. Pansies are annuals, as are snapdragons -- the latter are pretty hardy, though, and I've had some live to a second season. Violas -- yanno, I'm not sure. They're either perennials or self-seeding annuals, either way, once you've got them you're set.

Seriously, though, my advice stands -- start reading now and talking to gardeners (who are, in general, delightful people who love to talk plants -- I truly never have met an asshole gardener) to soak up knowlege. For reading, start with Barbara Damrosch's Garden Primer; I also like The Big Book of Garden Skills, "by the Editors of Garden Way," which covers a lot of ground (sic) clearly and helpfully.

[Sattua]

My mother claims that her snapdragons have always self-seeded... but frankly, I'd rather buy new ones in new colors every year. Same for pansies. Aren't violas and pansies the same thing basically? Pansies are supposed to be biennials, so I would have expected violas to be also. Either way, they're another thing that I'd rather buy new every year. It's a primal urge. I am tearing up in front of the hardware store, these days, because I can't buy any. You garden. You understand.

Thanks for book recommendations.

I am thinking about buying narrow bamboo poles (like, as big around as a pencil) and laying them out on the bed to help me chart where things are.

[Savannah]

Congratulations on the house, and the gardening bug!

Campanula--I also love them. I started with some on an apartment balcony, something named "Italian bellflower"--they were as pretty as the name.

You will find that the garden changes from year to year, as you find what flourishes and what gives you the most pleasure.

My ideal garden has some lilacs in it for that heavenly scent, too.

Weed and mulch, weed and mulch. Not terribly fun, but necessary. Gardens are funny things--you wander outside for "just a few minutes" and start pulling up a weed here, and deadheading there, and watering this, and checking out that. Next thing you know, it's full dark and you've got dirt under your nails and your thighs are burning.

And enjoy, because it's all good. Coming home from a crazy day at the job, there is nothing more soothing than judicious applications of alcohol and gardening. :)

[Harmonious Discord]

Viola are smaller than pansies. Many things Wisconsin gradeners treat as an annual may servive for you. Foxy is a variety of Foxglove that will bloom the first year, and I recommend it, as you can lose many of the plants during the winter. Pansies and viloa will likely live through the winter for you.

[Sattua]

Hey y'all: I do want daffodils for early Spring color, but I don't want any yellow or orange in my garden. I'm eyeing the pink varieties, but my mother poo-pooed them, saying the soil has to be just-so for the pink to show up. Is it true? What color are they if the soil isn't right? And do they continue coming up pink year after year?

[Sampiro]

If I may be so rude as to ask a piggyback question to this thread:

I'm getting my house ready to sell and I do not have a green thumb (to put it mildly). I have two big urns in front of the house that are currently just dirt, and also some flower beds. Can anybody recommend any plants that do well with very minimal care (i.e. occasional watering)? (Relevant info: I live in Alabama, a hot and humid climate.)

[Beaucarnea]

If I may be so rude as to ask a piggyback question to this thread:

I'm getting my house ready to sell and I do not have a green thumb (to put it mildly). I have two big urns in front of the house that are currently just dirt, and also some flower beds. Can anybody recommend any plants that do well with very minimal care (i.e. occasional watering)? (Relevant info: I live in Alabama, a hot and humid climate.)

If full sun: geraniums and/or marigolds. If shade: begonias and/or impatiens. The urns will still need water, but these are fairly sturdy annuals that will bloom for you all summer.

[Sampiro]

If full sun: geraniums and/or marigolds. If shade: begonias and/or impatiens. The urns will still need water, but these are fairly sturdy annuals that will bloom for you all summer.

Thanks. (Begonias are one of the few plants I recognize and like- I love the red stems.)

[jsgoddess]

If shade: begonias and/or impatiens. The urns will still need water, but these are fairly sturdy annuals that will bloom for you all summer.

I've also had much success with coleus in part shade/shade.

[elelle]

Sattua,
Where are you located? Perhaps I missed it, but, in more southern locales, you can plant perennials in fall, in fact, they are better planted then. If that's your region, you can make a plan for an extensive fall planting, not just bulbs. Forgive me for not elaborating here, but, I'm a horticulturist by trade, and it's spring, and I'm a bit worn around the edges right around now answering continual questions. Specific questions I can do, but, all these smart Dopers give great info here anyway.

And Do get Twickster's magazine. It's a wealth of information, well thought out and produced.

Sampiro, for the urns: if in full sun: Red Fountain Grass, subtended by trailing verbena, Powis castle artemesia, and, a colorful coleus. Shade: Japanese painted fern, a purple heuchera, begonia, and creeping raspberry trailing down. Feel free to contact me for more specifics; I owe ya for yer good tales.

[twickster]

And Do get Twickster's magazine. It's a wealth of information, well thought out and produced.

**blush** Thanks! From you, especially (a woman who is equally knowledgable in gardening and magazines), this is humbling praise.

[Sattua]

It'll be central Illinois. Twicks, elelle, nudgenudge: about the pink daffodils? Because I could totally put that order in RIGHT NOW.

[Harmonious Discord]

One other thing. Rodents like to eat the tulip bulbs, but they don't touch the daffodils.

What's the harm in planting a few, and seeing how they turn out?

[twickster]

It'll be central Illinois. Twicks, elelle, nudgenudge: about the pink daffodils? Because I could totally put that order in RIGHT NOW.
I don't know nothin' 'bout no pink daffodils -- but I've never heard anything about them being any different than regular ones in terms of maintaining color, etc.

Personally, I don't care for them -- if you're agin yellow and orange, you could always go for a white daff like Mount Hood.

[Sattua]

What's the harm in planting a few, and seeing how they turn out?

Disappointment? Heartbreak? Disillusionment?

Oh yeah, I'm getting into gardening. I'd better develop a thick skin for all that :p

[elelle]

Hoo, Sattua, you gave a question about the pink daffodils that got to me, even after a busy weekend of answering plant questions at work. I'd never heard of pink daffs being a problem, but who am I to say vs Mom's experience.

I searched around. went to the American Daffodil Society page, and there were no murmurs there about difficult pink ones, so, if it were really a problem, the Daffodil geeks would have a whole seperate page on it, expounding on that fact.

But, there was a trace (http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/bulbs/faq/daffodils.html) of disappointment with pinks on The Gardenweb Forums. That is an excellent site for gardening info, with myriad specialty forums, and an easygoing atmosphere.

Another good gardening resource that is close to your climatic zone is the Missouri Botanical Garden's (http://www.mobot.org/gardeninghelp/plantfinder/Plant.asp?code=B923) website. I pulled up that page on "Pink Charm" daffodil because of the name, doesn't look too pink to me, though. Regardless, MoBot rates plants, and gives excellent cultivation info. It's one of the five Hort sites I use most for research at a glance.

If you REALLY want to get the straightdope on pink daffs and their possible foibles, contact Brent and Becky's Bulbs in VA. Their family has grown Daffs for generations (you'll see they live on Daffodil Lane), and, they've written a book on them.I've read their catalog extensively, and don't remember a sidebar on any problem with pink ones. But, you can get the nitty gritty there, I'd suppose, with a query.

OK, I'm more daffy with that knowledge after searching around... :)

[Harmonious Discord]

All Daffodils fade to a lighter shade as they age also. A week old one is way different from a two day old one.

[Jackmannii]

Just a note here that in a mostly perennial garden, you're missing out if you avoid plants with outstanding foliage for the sake of flowers.

Even the best=planned perennial beds/borders will have gaps between flowering periods (especially in the many cases where people plant mostly spring and early-summer-flowering plants). Good foliage provides color and interest for the entire growing season.

Here's one foliage perennials listing (http://www.uvm.edu/pss/ppp/perpixfl.html).

[Harmonious Discord]

Jackmanii Potentilla (http://www.backyardgardener.com/plantname/pd_4e31.html)

Close enough spelling wise Jackimannii.