Tell me about English accents

[LinusK]

I can tell the 'high class' accent, because it's intelligible. I can tell the Scottish brogue. But the others, I can't tell one from the other, except they're all hard to understand.

In America we have the non-accent (Midwestern, I guess). The Southern accent. Ebonics. New Yorkers and Bostonians - some of them - have a distinctive way of talking. But we're not nearly as diverse, I don't think.

Do Brits have a hard time with American accents?

How many British dialects are there?

[RickJay]

In America we have the non-accent (Midwestern, I guess).
LOL. Midwesterners give themselves away in about nine seconds. With a little practice you can tell which part of the Midwest they're from.

The traditional "media use" American accent is Californian, not Midwestern. You're underestimating how many American accents there are. There is no "Southern" accent, for one thing; Texans don't sound the same as North Carolinans, who doesn't sound the same as Arkansians. Minnesotans are very different from Nebraskans. Kentucky's got a few itself. "Black" accents also differ by region; there's no one "ebonics" sound.

[Capt. Ridley's Shooting Party]

I think most American accents are intelligible to the majority of British, due to the large exposure we have via Hollywood.

There's hundreds of accents in the British Isles and accents/dialects can vary between neighbouring villages. For example, Blackrod (http://www.collectbritain.co.uk/search/advanced.cfm) is the village next to mine. Whereas "brew" (meaning hill) is pronounced as in "brew some tea" there, cross the border into Wigan and it's pronounced "brow" (there's lots of other small differences like that).

PS: the site linked to above is attempting to catalogue all British accents.

[Wendell Wagner]

RickJay writes:

> The traditional "media use" American accent is Californian, not Midwestern.
> You're underestimating how many American accents there are. There is
> no "Southern" accent, for one thing; Texans don't sound the same as North
> Carolinans, who doesn't sound the same as Arkansians. Minnesotans are very
> different from Nebraskans. Kentucky's got a few itself. "Black" accents also
> differ by region; there's no one "ebonics" sound.

Most linguists who are experts in American English accents say that the standard American accent is indeed Midwestern, although there's some disagreement about this. Some say that the nearest thing to the standard American accent is spoken in an oval area running from eastern Nebraska to western Illinois. (I personally think it's further east than that, in rural northwestern Ohio, but maybe that's because I'm from there.) Some say that it's closer to the Californian accent. I suspect that the standard American accent isn't exactly spoken anywhere but is a composite.

Of course, in some sense, there's a Southern accent. There are some likenesses in all the accents we call Southern. If you divide the accents more precisely though, you can get more accents. There's no clear way to decide how precisely to divide up accents. Also, no linguist uses the term "Ebonics." The term is either African-American Vernacular English or Black English. Again, how many such accents this constitutes depends on how precisely you break up the accents.

[GorillaMan]

How many British dialects are there?
Yikes, where do we start?!

Well, probably here (http://www.bbc.co.uk/voices/recordings/index.shtml), with a great BBC resource with a huge spread of accents, differentiated not only by geography but by age, social background, and so on.

[Quartz]

I can tell the 'high class' accent, because it's intelligible. I can tell the Scottish brogue.
The Irish have a brogue; the Scots have a burr. :)

[LinusK]

The Irish have a brogue; the Scots have a burr. :)

Sorry; Scottish burr. Should probably know that, since I'm 1/8 Scots (Scottish?) myself.

[Baron Greenback]

Sorry; Scottish burr. Should probably know that, since I'm 1/8 Scots (Scottish?) myself.

There isn't a single Scottish one but it's really hard to judge how well outsiders can distinguish accents from where you personally grew up but to me Scotland has a wide range of accents. The main groups are roughly (I'm no linguist!):

Glasgow/West Central Scotland - think Billy Connolly when he was younger

Edinburgh/East Central Scotland - think Trainspotting

Aberdeen - this can be difficult for fellow Scots to understand. It has elements of a defunct language called Doric in it, apparently

Dundee - seems to eschew consonants altogether "a e' i' a'" translates as "I ate it all"

Dumfries and Galloway/Borders - can't think of any examples unless you are into Rugby

Highlands and Islands - The nicest sounding English in the whole UK is spoken in and around Inverness - it has a slight sing-song quality. The further north and west you go the influence of Norn and Gaelic, respectively, increases.

There are also posh versions of all these accents, and of course variations from town to town within them.

The one that is furthest from the "regular" Scottish accent is Aberdonian, although I wouldn't give much hope for an unaccustomed ear to quickly understand Dundonian or Glaswegian either.

[Alive At Both Ends]

In America we have the non-accent (Midwestern, I guess).
Can we please get rid of this idea that people from (insert region here) speak without an accent? Everybody has an accent. Some accents may be less noticeable to you but that's because you've grown up with them and don't notice them until you hear people from elsewhere speaking differently. Of course, to those people, you have the accent. (End of rant.)

I can tell the 'high class' accent, because it's intelligible.
But this isn't a single accent. As other posters have said, accents can be divided up almost infinitely. And they change with time. Listen to the upper class accents in any British film from the 1930's or 1940's - nobody speaks like that now, except possibly the Queen.

[GorillaMan]

Listen to the upper class accents in any British film from the 1930's or 1940's - nobody speaks like that now, except possibly the Queen.
And the queen speaks with a different accent now to how she did fifty years ago.

[LinusK]

There are also posh versions of all these accents, and of course variations from town to town within them.

How many class accents are there? Why is posh English easier to understand, for Americans, than the others?

[GorillaMan]

Social class and accents are intertwined in a complex way, and you can't distinguish a discreet number of accents purely defined by class. Also, to complicate things further: whether or not they know it, people tend to fluctuate between different accents, depending on circumstances. If I phoned you up, I'd have a fairly middle-class accent. I use a similar voice when teaching whole classes or groups. When I'm teaching one-to-one, I'm far more Suffolk. When with a group of friends, I tend to fluctuate between the two.

[CookingWithGas]

All I can say is that when I saw "The Commitments" it took me forever to figure out what "fook" meant. :D

[BrassyPhrase]

All I can say is that when I saw "The Commitments" it took me forever to figure out what "fook" meant. :D


A me too post--but not that word.

The word that cornfuckled me was "shite". I kept thinking of alternate spellings (remembering gaol/jail etc) before finally figuring out that the word was "shit".

(I was imagining some odd like Welsh spelling with three 'L's , two 'D's and a silent Q)

Yes, yes. I know. England. Wales. Ireland. Northern Ireland. Scotland. All different.

Yes.

So no one yell at me.

[Sampiro]

Only slightly relevant, but Emma Thompson was on a talk show and said English actors learning to speak in generic American accents often hold their nose up (almost like they're imitating a pig) until they begin to get the hang of it. (For the funniest available example of Emma in an American accent, go to the 2:25 for context/3:30 for punchline mark of this YouTube clip (http://youtube.com/watch?v=mJLHPQdUCD4). (In this episode of Ellen Emma plays herself, sort of: she's a lesbian and lush on the verge of coming out but reveals something that's far more embarassing than her sex-life to Ellen.)

[TheLoadedDog]

As other posters have said, accents can be divided up almost infinitely.
I once saw a comedy sketch along those lines. An "accent expert" was talking to some guy.... "You're from Detroit..... east side.... um..... Smith street..... I'd say.... third house from the corner."

The Queen's accent has shifted hugely. These days she will "go home" whereas fifty years ago, she'd "gay hame". Although, it's not just the Queen - TV and radio announcers have also followed these shifting patterns.

Geraldine Doogue, an Australian TV and radio presenter, said how her first ever words on radio were back in the 60s, when British=good and she had to say the two words "concert hour" as "concert ah". That would never happen these days.

[GorillaMan]

Hadn't seen that Ellen clip before, and it's great (especially the last line). It's interesting hearing the moments where the American accent falters, often on 'y'know' and similar at the beginnings of sentences, where her natural English pronunciation is present before she can hit the American one.

[amarone]

A me too post--but not that word.

The word that cornfuckled me was "shite". I kept thinking of alternate spellings (remembering gaol/jail etc) before finally figuring out that the word was "shit".
There is a difference. "fook" is merely what it sounded like when the actors/singers said "fuck". But "shite (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/shite)" is a separate word from "shit"; they just happen to mean the same thing.

[Clark K]

This seems like a good place to ask a question that's been on my mind, although I realize it has no concrete answer: Why do some Brits not pronounce consonants in the middle of a word?

Rather than pronounce "little" as lit-tul or something similar, they say li-ul. "Mental" becomes me-ul or perhaps men-ul.

I can understand dropping sounds at the end of words, but it somehow strikes me as strange to do it in the middle of words, particularly on key sounds in short words. We're not talking about slurring "worcestershire" into worster-sher.

What is that accent, anyway? When I hear Lily Allen say "me-ul" in a song, what does that say about her class, her location, etc.?

[Frylock]

The traditional "media use" American accent is Californian, not Midwestern.

The origin (and continued place of habitation) of the "accentless" accent is around Ohio. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_American)

I can back up the wiki cite with the fact that this is also what I was taught in Linguistics classes as an undergraduate.

-FrL-

[chowder]

The Irish have a brogue; the Scots have a burr. :)
The Irish have a "Lilt" also

.....as in "in the lilt of Irish laughter you can hear the angels sing"

[Pjen]

There isn't a single Scottish one but it's really hard to judge how well outsiders can distinguish accents from where you personally grew up but to me Scotland has a wide range of accents. The main groups are roughly (I'm no linguist!):
Dumfries and Galloway/Borders - can't think of any examples unless you are into Rugby

Try Ashley Jensen playing Christina McKinney in Ugly Betty.

Every time she speaks it jars as I just hear a very local accent in a wrong place.

[Pjen]

There isn't a single Scottish one but it's really hard to judge how well outsiders can distinguish accents from where you personally grew up but to me Scotland has a wide range of accents. The main groups are roughly (I'm no linguist!):

Aberdeen - this can be difficult for fellow Scots to understand. It has elements of a defunct language called Doric in it, apparently



|I once nursed an elderly Aberdonian who was nearly ninety and had been deaf for over sixty years. Her un-ameliorated Aberdeen accent and dialect was as impenetrable as many foreign languages!

[Pjen]

This seems like a good place to ask a question that's been on my mind, although I realize it has no concrete answer: Why do some Brits not pronounce consonants in the middle of a word?

Rather than pronounce "little" as lit-tul or something similar, they say li-ul. "Mental" becomes me-ul or perhaps men-ul.

I can understand dropping sounds at the end of words, but it somehow strikes me as strange to do it in the middle of words, particularly on key sounds in short words. We're not talking about slurring "worcestershire" into worster-sher.

What is that accent, anyway? When I hear Lily Allen say "me-ul" in a song, what does that say about her class, her location, etc.?

This is called a glottal stop

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glottal_stop

It started off as a London affectation, but now covers most of southern and eastern England up into the Midlands and down into Somerset and Devon. Cornish Englis has always had a faint glottal stop- it used to be a sure fire way to distinguish Devon from Cornish English, but now no more!

[Sitnam]

The traditional "media use" American accent is Californian, not Midwestern.

Actually I believe Ohio is considered the non-accent. Even IF the stranger doesn't mention he's from 'cali' within 5 seconds of talking (which has never happened), I'd be able to tell quickly.

[Sitnam]

Cornish Englis has always had a faint glottal stop- it used to be a sure fire way to distinguish Devon from Cornish English, but now no more!

eye luv mi Coom-bine 'ahrvester!

[GorillaMan]

It started off as a London affectation...
I dispute that it's solely of London origin. As you indicate, there's also indigenous glottal stops (oh, the irony of the Ts in the middle of that word 'glottal') in other regional accents. I should know :)

[chowder]

eye luv mi Coom-bine 'ahrvester!
Disna nit ken it's "'aaaaaaaaaarvister"

Innit

[Malacandra]

Glo'al stops are all over the place, but one of the weirder regional variations is the Bristol "l". It's really hard for a Bristolian to pronounce a word ending in a weak vowel - they don't seem able to stop without the lingual creeping in. Thus I've heard a lorry driver explaining on TV that he carries a fire extinguisher "for engine fires, et ceteral", and a Bristolian who knew his geography could tell you that Miami is in Floridal. The bass line in a brass band would be carried by a tubal (I suppose you might hear a Wagner tubal played at the operal). The average income might be £23,500 per capital. And so on.

[Ximenean]

And Bristol itself was originally called Brigstowe. They just can't help it :)

[Wendell Wagner]

Frylock writes:

> The origin (and continued place of habitation) of the "accentless" accent is
> around Ohio.

Sitnam writes:

> Actually I believe Ohio is considered the non-accent.

The interesting thing is that the Wikipedia link that Frylock gives claims that the accent is found most closely in an oval stretching from eastern Nebraska to northwest Illinois. This entry in Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_English_regional_differences

claims that it can be heard in California.

As I said in my previous post, I think that the closest you'll find to it is in rural northwest Ohio. I emphasize it's only the rural part of northwest Ohio, because Toledo and its suburbs are part of the Northern Cities vowel shift:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_cities_vowel_shift

Of course, I may be prejudiced because I grew up there. Indeed, I sometimes make the joke that linguistic surveyors came around to my parent's farm in northwest Ohio and planted a marker on it that declared "On the exact spot is spoken standard American English." But, seriously, I'm not even sure that standard American English is spoken anywhere exactly. It may be purely a composite.

[Pjen]

Glo'al stops are all over the place, but one of the weirder regional variations is the Bristol "l". It's really hard for a Bristolian to pronounce a word ending in a weak vowel - they don't seem able to stop without the lingual creeping in. Thus I've heard a lorry driver explaining on TV that he carries a fire extinguisher "for engine fires, et ceteral", and a Bristolian who knew his geography could tell you that Miami is in Floridal. The bass line in a brass band would be carried by a tubal (I suppose you might hear a Wagner tubal played at the operal). The average income might be £23,500 per capital. And so on.


In the sixties and seventies, Bristolians drove Cortinals ;)

[Capt. Ridley's Shooting Party]

Rather than pronounce "little" as lit-tul or something similar, they say li-ul. "Mental" becomes me-ul or perhaps men-ul.


Another variation of this exists around here. Kettle is pronounced "keckle", little "lickle" etc.

[Martha Medea]

In the sixties and seventies, Bristolians drove Cortinals ;)
And named their daughters Normal and Evil*...

I used to work on local radio there "I'm calling from the Bedminster areal"...












*Norma and Eva

[Martha Medea]

Another variation of this exists around here. Kettle is pronounced "keckle", little "lickle" etc.
This is also common in West Indian patois.

[Ichbin Dubist]

Highlands and Islands - The nicest sounding English in the whole UK is spoken in and around Inverness - it has a slight sing-song quality. The further north and west you go the influence of Norn and Gaelic, respectively, increases.

I was in Scotland 20 years ago -- I had no problems in Edinburgh and Glasgow, but I found the folks in Inverness VERY hard to understand. Some people may as well hahve been speaking Norwegian. Note that I was born and raised in New Jersey and cast no frickin' stones on the purity of anybody's English.

Oh, and the idea that people from Ohio or Nebraska have "no accent" is silly. There is no standard American accent, and the "neutral" accent affected by TV newscasters is, like the "mid-Atlantic" accent my mother got when she studied speech in 1955, a learned one.

[Nava]

This seems like a good place to ask a question that's been on my mind, although I realize it has no concrete answer: Why do some Brits not pronounce consonants in the middle of a word?

Rather than pronounce "little" as lit-tul or something similar, they say li-ul. "Mental" becomes me-ul or perhaps men-ul.

I can understand dropping sounds at the end of words, but it somehow strikes me as strange to do it in the middle of words, particularly on key sounds in short words. We're not talking about slurring "worcestershire" into worster-sher.

What is that accent, anyway? When I hear Lily Allen say "me-ul" in a song, what does that say about her class, her location, etc.?

You ever been to New Hampshire?

My first stay in the US was there. It took myself and my fellow Europeans (six of which were Brits) to figure out what the problem was. We said twenty. The locals said twinny.

[Frylock]

You ever been to New Hampshire?

My first stay in the US was there. It took myself and my fellow Europeans (six of which were Brits) to figure out what the problem was. We said twenty. The locals said twinny.

I'm from Texas, and I say "twinny" too. We also say "pen" and "pin" the same 'round 'bout these here parts.

-FrL-

[AskNott]

California, like Florida, grew so fast in the last half of the 20th century that any California accent is surely transplanted. "Los Angelinos," says the song, "all come from somewhere."

In a Florida hardware store, I told the manager, "I'm not from around here. I guess you could hear that in my voice." He laughed. "Everybody's from out of state, here, son. Hardly anybody was born here." :smack:

[Acsenray]

There isn't a single Scottish on...

So which one is Scotty on Star Trek?

:D

[Acsenray]

(In this episode of Ellen Emma plays herself, sort of: she's a lesbian and lush on the verge of coming out but reveals something that's far more embarassing than her sex-life to Ellen.)

Dayton, Ohio! Woo-hoo! Of course, her accent doesn't sound Daytonian at all. Though, so far as I can tell, there isn't one single Dayton accent, that nasal whine is much more associated with Cleveland and Toledo.

This is called a glottal stop

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glottal_stop

Which also exists in American English, in places such as the aforementioned. Day'nah-high-ah.

[Acsenray]

The traditional "media use" American accent is Californian, not Midwestern.

The only accenta that strike me as being characteristically Californian are the "surf's up duuuude" and the "omigaaaad!" ones.

[Baron Greenback]

So which one is Scotty on Star Trek?

:D

A matter of some controversy in Scottish tourism circles! (http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200508/s1427901.htm) .

[WOOKINPANUB]

. . ."Oh, and the idea that people from Ohio or Nebraska have "no accent" is silly. There is no standard American accent, and the "neutral" accent affected by TV newscasters is, like the "mid-Atlantic" accent my mother got when she studied speech in 1955, a learned one.

I'm not sure I agree with this. I would agree that to one's own ears, any speech patterns or pronounciations that differ from their own would be perceived as an accent. But, are you saying their is no actual "proper" way to prounounce words as dictated by the laws of phonetics? I don't mean proper in terms of acceptable, but in terms of correct as per the constructs of the language.

Sorry, I know I'm not explaining very well. I'm just not grasping the idea that there isn't a pure (for lack of a better term) form of American English and therefore a region that comes closer than others to speaking it.

[Acsenray]

But, are you saying their is no actual "proper" way to prounounce words

Exactly.

as dictated by the laws of phonetics?

The laws of phonetics? Youwha?

I don't mean proper in terms of acceptable, but in terms of correct as per the constructs of the language.

Sorry, I know I'm not explaining very well. I'm just not grasping the idea that there isn't a pure (for lack of a better term) form of American English

Linguistically speaking, you could theoretically define a "Standard" American English accent or a "General" American English accent, but "pure" is a judgment and has no empirical basis, unless all you are using to mean is a relative "distance" from a standard.

Whom are you going to look to for an example of a "pure" version? The science of language does not look to authority or prestige to determine "correctness." A "standard" is the one that is supported by institutions, but in the United States it's a lot easier to find a standard with respect to grammar and vocabulary than it is to find one with respect to accent.

To a large extent, the accents you perceive as being "pure" are not as alike as you think.

[WOOKINPANUB]

. . ." Linguistically speaking, you could theoretically define a "Standard" American English accent or a "General" American English accent, but "pure" is a judgment and has no empirical basis, unless all you are using to mean is a relative "distance" from a standard.

Whom are you going to look to for an example of a "pure" version? The science of language does not look to authority or prestige to determine "correctness." A "standard" is the one that is supported by institutions, but in the United States it's a lot easier to find a standard with respect to grammar and vocabulary than it is to find one with respect to accent.

Okay, let's use the term " standard " then. While I want to explain myself, I don't want to get bogged down in semantics, but I'll try again.

When looking up a word in the dictionary, that word is spelled out phonetically to illustrate how the word is pronounced. Doesn't that mean that their is indeed a "correct" way to say a word? Certain letters and combinations thereof are meant to sound a certain way, no? So, if you look up the definition of "forever" you will be shown that it ends with a hard "rr" sound (sorry, don't know the technical term for this. I assume you know what I'm trying to say), but since you're a native of Brooklyn, you pronounce it "foreva". You are not pronouncing it the "standard" way, as you are omitting the "rr" sound.

Does that make any more sense?

[Spectre of Pithecanthropus]

.

The traditional "media use" American accent is Californian, not Midwestern. Y.

I think this is highly debatable. I grew up in California, and my father did most of his growing up here, too, so I guess you could say my roots here run deep, at least by California standards.

A TV broadcast or concerted organizational effort is not a "PROH-grum", and a fully grown human being is not an "AH-dult", but both those pronunciations are standard "medi-ese".

For me, accenting the second syllable of 'adult', and fully pronouncing both syllables of 'program' has always sounded more natural.

[Acsenray]

When looking up a word in the dictionary, that word is spelled out phonetically to illustrate how the word is pronounced. Doesn't that mean that their is indeed a "correct" way to say a word?

No, it means that this is the pronunciation that the dictionary compilers have observed. There very well might be significant minorities that pronounce it differently. If one of those minorities is large enough, it might warrant an "alternative" or "second" listing.

Certain letters and combinations thereof are meant to sound a certain way, no?

"Meant to"? By whom? The alphabet was not handed down by a linguistic creator god who intended the individual letters to be pronounced a certain way. Most Western European languages use variations of the Roman alphabet. Have you looked at the variety of the ways letters are pronounced? They are often not pronounced in ways that ancient Romans "intended." And how did the standards for modern languages develop? Essentially, from people who started to violate the "standards" of their own time?

So, if you look up the definition of "forever" you will be shown that it ends with a hard "rr" sound (sorry, don't know the technical term for this. I assume you know what I'm trying to say), but since you're a native of Brooklyn, you pronounce it "foreva". You are not pronouncing it the "standard" way, as you are omitting the "rr" sound.

Many accents are not "standard." That merely means that the person in question is not using a "standard accent," but rather a "nonstandard" accent. What more do you want to derive from this description? Maybe the Brooklinite's accent will someday become so popular that it will become the de facto standard. Or maybe Brooklyn will become an independent nation-state whose government then defines the Brooklyn accent as the "standard" one to be taught in schools. Who will be "pure" or "incorrect" then?

[Acsenray]

A TV broadcast or concerted organizational effort is not a "PROH-grum", and a fully grown human being is not an "AH-dult", but both those pronunciations are standard "medi-ese".

These strike me as sounding Canadian rather than anchorese.

[rowrrbazzle]

But "shite (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/shite)" is a separate word from "shit"; they just happen to mean the same thing.Isn't that a bit strong? There are combined entries for the words in the OED. The OED also says of the verb "The now more common form shit is influenced by the pa. pple. or the related n."

[carnivorousplant]

who doesn't sound the same as Arkansians.

Arkansans. :)

[Hari Seldon]

You might think that "t", say, has a standard pronunciation. After all, the dictionary uses the letter to indicate something, right? Well, it doesn't but is pronounced differently in different places and there is no one to say one of them is standard and the other isn't. They differ chiefly in the point of articulation, which can be anywhere from the roof of the mount (along the ridge) to the back of the teeth. They all sound alike, you say? Then explain why there is a consistency among them in any one region.

The "l" is even worse as there are two very different pronunciations. I once read in a phonetics book something like, "The `l' is a lateral in all varieties of English." Not in my dialect. More precisely, the first "l" in "lateral" is lateral and the last one isn't. I believe that is standard in American English, most dialects, anyway. A woman I know who emigrated from Italy at age 11 and speaks nearly unaccented English (that is to say, not Italian accented) says "lateral" with two lateral "l"s.

Then there are vowels. I am given to understand that in most dialects of English, "bad" rhymes with "sad". Not in mine, where the first has a tense "a" and the second is lax. Similarly with "can" (what you put peas in) and "can" (modal) and the unstressed version of the latter "cn" is still a third possibility.

All the listing in a dictionary can tell you is that "bet" has the same version of "e" as "get, but cannot tell you what that is. So it basically extends your accent from familiar to less familiar words.

I think of the English of nework radio broadcasters as standard, but I don't think it is anybody's actual dialect.

[John Mace]

You ever been to New Hampshire?

My first stay in the US was there. It took myself and my fellow Europeans (six of which were Brits) to figure out what the problem was. We said twenty. The locals said twinny.
That's not unique to NH. Most Americans, I believe, would say something closer to "twenny" than "twenty" when speaking quickly and informally (I think you heard the vowel wrong, btw). We'd also tend to say "thirdy" and "fourdy". And in NH that last one would be "fawdy", as in then times "fo-uh". ;)

[Chronos]

Dayton, Ohio! Woo-hoo! Of course, her accent doesn't sound Daytonian at all. Though, so far as I can tell, there isn't one single Dayton accent, that nasal whine is much more associated with Cleveland and Toledo.Funny, that didn't sound at all Cleveland to me, and I'm from there. It did definitely sound American, and I'd say there was at least some Appalachian influence in there, but a lot of other things, too.

On the Standard American Accent, if it exists, I can definitely tell the difference between my native Cleveland and Appalacian, or New York, or Texas or other Southern accents, but I can hear almost no difference between Cleveland, Philadelphia, Montana, or California. I'm sure that there's a difference there, and that a trained linguist could identify it easily, but it's subtle compared to the differences between some other American accents.

As for the glottal stop replacing consonants in the middle of words, I've yet to meet an American who routinely pronounces the "t" sound in the middle of "cotton". Everyone knows it's there, until you actually listen for it.

[An Gadaí]

The accents in North-East Ulster, Counties Down and Antrim sounds Scots, even to people from other parts of Ulster.

[Acsenray]

Funny, that didn't sound at all Cleveland to me, and I'm from there.

No, it didn't sound Cleveland to me, either. I was just commenting on that one characteristic.

Cleveland, Philadelphia, Montana, or California

I'm no trained linguist, but I would say that Philadelphia has a fairly identifiable accent. And Cleveland is a lot closer to other NCVS locations, like Buffalo and Chicago, than it is to California. And, even knowing little about accents, I'd have to say that it'd be much more natural to group Montana, California, and Cincinnati, than it would be to group them with Cleveland.

[An Gadaí]

I've been in Cleveland a few times and to my ears Tom said by a Clevelander sounds like "Tahhm" and God sounds like "Gahhhd".

[Acsenray]

I've been in Cleveland a few times and to my ears Tom said by a Clevelander sounds like "Tahhm" and God sounds like "Gahhhd".

Yes, one of the characteristics of the Northern Cities Vowel Shift is that the low, back, unrounded vowel of Standard American gets pushed forward, sometimes even as far as the vowel in Standard American "cat."

[Gary "Wombat" Robson]

Even IF the stranger doesn't mention he's from 'cali' within 5 seconds of talking (which has never happened), I'd be able to tell quickly.I lived in California for over 20 years, and then moved away in 2001. Two observations:

1) I never met anyone in that entire time in California who called it "Cali." In fact, aside from twitspeakers (er, I mean "leetspeakers"), your post is the only place I've ever seen it.

2) These days, if you move to Oregon, Washington, Idaho, Montana, Wyoming, Utah, or a wide variety of other places, you do not mention you're from California. It's poison. All day long I listen to people gripe about "those damned Californians driving our real estate prices up" and "those damned Californians thinking they're better than us" and "the idiots from the land of fruits and nuts" and on and on and on.

So *ahem* I'm not from Cali.

[Gary "Wombat" Robson]

The "l" is even worse as there are two very different pronunciations. I once read in a phonetics book something like, "The `l' is a lateral in all varieties of English." Not in my dialect. More precisely, the first "l" in "lateral" is lateral and the last one isn't.I don't know what "lateral" means in this context, but I'm having trouble thinking of a way to pronounce "lateral" where the two "l"s aren't alike.

[WOOKINPANUB]

I appreciate acsenray and Hari Seldon's comments and explanations. I am clearly unable to articulate my thoughts today. :smack:

I'll only add one more question to this hijack:

When people (usually entertainers) work to lose their accent, what (or whom?) are they striving to sound like?

[GorillaMan]

When people (usually entertainers) work to lose their accent, what (or whom?) are they striving to sound like?
Is this specifically Brits, or in general? In the case of British actors, there's the slightly-dismissive descriptions such as 'RADA accent' and 'RSC accent' for those who have acquired a generic upper-middle-class sound which doesn't occur naturally in any part of the country or in any other walk of life. There was a time when stage schools would hammer all traces of regional accents out of students, but now there's more recognition of the value of versatility - it does somebody no harm to retain their natural voice provided that they can mimic others accurately.

[bordelond]

I don't know what "lateral" means in this context, but I'm having trouble thinking of a way to pronounce "lateral" where the two "l"s aren't alike.
It's the difference between what's known as the "clear l" (as in leap, lead) and "dark l" (as in bell, bill, bull). Here's some detail:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Velarized_alveolar_lateral_approximant

In many dialects of English, including Received Pronunciation, the velarized lateral alveolar approximant occurs in syllable coda position, as in bell and milk. In syllable onset position, however, the non-velarized or "plain" alveolar lateral approximant is found. In other words, the dark l is the l-sound used in bell and milk, as opposed to the clear l, which is the l-sound used in lad or lip.

Some other dialects of English, such as Scottish English, use a velarized or dark l in all positions, while Hiberno-English (Irish English) uses clear l everywhere. Some English accents, such as Cockney, Estuary English, South Australian English, and, to a lesser extent, the African American Vernacular English use [w], [u] or [o] instead of dark l's, a process known as l-vocalization (so that bell becomes "beww" and milk becomes "miwk"). Similar changes are found in other languages, such as Serbian, as seen in the Serbian name Beograd of Belgrade.

Russian and Polish are languages that have the "clear l" and "dark l" as distinct phonemes in their consonantal inventories, unlike English. Russian лекарство (lekarstvo, "medicine") and лампа (lampa, "lamp") begin with a "clear l" and a "dark l", respectively.

[bordelond]

When people (usually entertainers) work to lose their accent, what (or whom?) are they striving to sound like?
This varies a lot based on the specific ad hoc needs of the entertainer. Georgia peach Andie McDowell worked to lose her Southern accent for Greystoke, while British actress Cate Blanchette strove to pick up a similar accent for The Gift.

[Acsenray]

When people (usually entertainers) work to lose their accent, what (or whom?) are they striving to sound like?

Just keep in mind, people might speaking of "losing" an accent, but what they're really trying to do is obtain a different accent. Exactly which accent they obtain depends on whose speech they, individually, choose to model (It might be an accent coach) and depends on the demands of a specific job.

[Acsenray]

I don't know what "lateral" means in this context, but I'm having trouble thinking of a way to pronounce "lateral" where the two "l"s aren't alike.

If you're a baseball fan, think about the way Pete Rose says "like." It's almost as if he's swallowing the first "l." It sounds distinctive, because most American accents reserve that sound for the end of a word and use the regular "l" sound for the beginning of a word.

[chowder]

I've been to the USA on 6 separate occasions and to be honest with you the only difference in accents I noticed was in those from the South, Alabama to be precise.

A really nice soothing draaaaawl that went on forever.

"By the 'eck lad"

[Gary "Wombat" Robson]

It's the difference between what's known as the "clear l" (as in leap, lead) and "dark l" (as in bell, bill, bull). Here's some detail:I'm sorry. I tried my best to understand that Wikipedia article (I'm not a linguist), and I still don't get it. I pronounce the "L" in all five of your sample words alike, and Wikipedia doesn't seem to have any audio files to aid in understanding. I tried paying attention to my tongue as I said those words, and it seems to be in exactly the same place in my mouth.

Do you know of a site that has sample audio where I could hear the difference?

[bordelond]

Hang on, Wombat ... I'm looking for some sound samples. If you don't produce the differences in your own speech, though, you may have difficulty distingishing them by ear.

Consider, though, that you may well use the either the "clear l" or the "dark l" for pretty much every instance of "l". It could be part of your accent :D

[bordelond]

OK, Wombat ... try this site (http://homepage.ntu.edu.tw/~karchung/intro%20page%2014.htm). There are sound samples of various types of "l's", and then at the very bottom, there are side-by-side pronunciations of the word "play" with a "clear l" and a "dark l", to demonstrate the distinction.

[LinusK]

I lived in California for over 20 years, and then moved away in 2001. Two observations:

1) I never met anyone in that entire time in California who called it "Cali." In fact, aside from twitspeakers (er, I mean "leetspeakers"), your post is the only place I've ever seen it.

2) These days, if you move to Oregon, Washington, Idaho, Montana, Wyoming, Utah, or a wide variety of other places, you do not mention you're from California. It's poison. All day long I listen to people gripe about "those damned Californians driving our real estate prices up" and "those damned Californians thinking they're better than us" and "the idiots from the land of fruits and nuts" and on and on and on.

So *ahem* I'm not from Cali.

And Texas.

Apparently every single person in Cali's recently sold at least one house for $500,000 more than they paid for it, and now they're intent on inflicting their insane real estate prices on the rest of us.

Go Away!

[Acsenray]

Hang on, Wombat ... I'm looking for some sound samples. If you don't produce the differences in your own speech, though, you may have difficulty distingishing them by ear.

Consider, though, that you may well use the either the "clear l" or the "dark l" for pretty much every instance of "l". It could be part of your accent :D

Take a listen to this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyqN7iZNyoU&mode=related&search=) interview with Pete Rose. Pete Rose uses the "dark" or "liquid" l sound in almost every position. Listen to how he says "glad," "Fort Lauderdale," "Charlie Hustle," "left," "fly," "plays," "lot more," etc.