The lab is broke and fucked. Wha-whoo!

[Mouse_Maven]

I haven’t bitched about work in a while, but now there’s a reason.

Recap: October last year, the head of our department (DH) announced that he was leaving for a better job in Canada. This has started a cluster-fuck that has continued to this day. Some higher ups wanted to dissolve this program and start over. The Spineless Bastard, one of the big wigs, just wants us out of “his” building - but we can leave our equipment for him to use. :rolleyes:

We were just told that what’s left of DH’s grant money is going to be taken by the U. (I’m not sure if they’re taking back U. money or confiscating other funds. Since the research branch and teaching hospital have been “transitioning” to this fancy fucking money-pit of a new campus, the U. is deeply in debt.) None of these funds will be given to this program’s research scientists. The lab is dead.

There are many talented, hard working people that will be fucked bareback with a spiked dildo (not in a fun way) because of this. Unfinished projects and unpublished papers will set their careers back months, maybe even years. There is also “dead lab” stigma that will follow these folks. (I’m double fucked. I worked for an institute that was about to fold, but bought out by a private university. Now, I’ve been with a starved department. Maybe I’m a Plague_Rat?)

Academics sucks! No wonder I'm quitting. What to do next, I'm still trying to figure out.

[carnivorousplant]

I am sorry to hear that.


Oh, the pit.
Shit, I'm sorry to hear that.

[Mouse_Maven]

I am sorry to hear that.


Oh, the pit.
Shit, I'm sorry to hear that.

Thanks. I've been suspecting this for awhile now. My boss has been out of the lab for weeks. Not answering phone calls, pages or emails. My bet is that he's establishing himself as a full-time clinical doctor or looking for a position with another U. (Fuck Dr. Boss. I wish he'd tell me what he's up to. If I'm going to be laid off it may benefit me more than quiting - and look a little better on my resume.)

I feel bad for the handfull of people who are still here. A couple of post-docs have been trying to break into private industry, but have had no luck. One was even told to drop her doctorate off of her resume, it hurts her chances. All of that work to get a PhD and you have to hide it to get a job? :(

Just got an email: a "sexually violent predator" - their words - will be moving within 1 mile of campus. Great. We're already in the middle of Meth/Gang Land.

Fuck this shit. After the Mouseling is born, I'll look into career change.

[Tranquilis]

So what the fuck happens to the jobs and equipment when the budget gets done being raped*?

Do they just stop paying y'all? Do you show up one day to find the doors locked? Hold a garage sale on the equipment? Sell y'all off for medical test subjects?

Anyway - Sucky sit. Maybe get a mongo-sized Tazer for your resident preditor, and accidentally use on the Uni Admin?






*Pit - necessary profanity.

[tomndebb]

What was the original source of the funds for the lab? Who bought the equipment and paid the salaries? If it was public money with an earmark, perhaps some newspaper would be interested in reporting on a bit of university graft? (It would not save your jobs, but it might make the scum squirm a bit.)
ETA: Alternatively, if the deserter still has the purse strings, he might be encouraged to sell the equipment to repay the original obligations, keeping it out of the hands of the incoming thief.)

[Squink]

So what the fuck happens to the ....... equipment when the budget gets done being raped*?Any graduate student worth their salt is already considering ways to 'borrow' all the good stuff, to further their own research.

[notthatagain]

There are many talented, hard working people that will be fucked bareback with a spiked dildo (not in a fun way) because of this.


...and Way Too Happy adds another email sig...

Sorry to hear about the lab's demise MM. I hope they lay you off so you get your best possible exit.

[Mouse_Maven]

What was the original source of the funds for the lab? Who bought the equipment and paid the salaries? If it was public money with an earmark, perhaps some newspaper would be interested in reporting on a bit of university graft? (It would not save your jobs, but it might make the scum squirm a bit.)
ETA: Alternatively, if the deserter still has the purse strings, he might be encouraged to sell the equipment to repay the original obligations, keeping it out of the hands of the incoming thief.)

Squink hit the nail on the head. Small and inexpensive stuff will "disappear." (U policy states that equipment over a certain value must be registered with Asset Management. Anything not on the registry can move from lab to lab.)

Original funds for a lab vary. Most of them start with NIH grants. Then there are other organizations and foundations that researchers apply to for funding.

At this U., salaries are paid and equipment is bought strictly with grant money. There is very little direct funding from the University itself. My boss got a "Bridge Grant" from the U. - money to tide us over until we get a grant. Then the U. wants us to pay their "grant" back when we get funding. :rolleyes:

Rumors of fuzzy funding are common. If they are to believed, the building I work in was built with NIH funds that were intended for something else.

[Swallowed My Cellphone]

So... is the lab having a garage sale or anything?


What? They've probably got cool stuff!

[Mouse_Maven]

So... is the lab having a garage sale or anything?

Want a couple of hundred mice? They're inbred and have few mutations, so I'll cut you a deal. :D

[carnivorousplant]

Want a couple of hundred mice?
No thanks, got plenty,
Nadia caught one at 2:00 Ante Meridian this morning. Jumping over the gate that keeps the dogs out of the bedroom. Again. And Again. I took him away from her and turned him loose on the porch. Last seen vaulting down the steps, hopefully a wiser and outside mouse.

[Omegaman]

I wish I knew somebody in your line of work, but I'm a grunt. I can only offer my sincerest sympathies upon the closing of your lab. I hope and pray that you find the job that you dream of. Permanent and lots of benefits, monetary and otherwise. At least you now share the eyes and minds of many in your search. Peace be with you.

[Terrifel]

Sorry to learn of your lab woes. I dunno if you're one of those "misery loves company" types, but I haven't personally heard much of any good news emerge from research academia lately. If I do, I'll try to give a shout out. Meanwhile, happy thoughts.

Our department just recently went through a similar convulsion with the departure of the Research VP, and the repercussions continue. Who knows what tomorrow will bring? Our supervisor called us in the other day to inform us that upper management has noticed a problem with low morale lately, so from now on anyone complaining could be the next to lose their job. So that should solve that problem nicely. Personally I'm keeping my eyes peeled for job openings at the local pet shops just in case.

I've often thought that this line of work would lend itself nicely to a screwball comedy movie. There could be a scene where a group of investigators are arguing with the lab manager, and none of them actually speaks the same language. The plot could revolve around various researchers' attempt to create an incredibly rare strain of mouse model, and their various attempts to sabotage each other in the process. Eventually someone manages to breed a mouse which contains all the desired genes, but before they can use it to found the strain, it escapes! And then you've got this several-hundred-thousand-dollar mouse running around the facility, evading all attempts to catch it. It'd be a madcap laugh-a-minute romp! The feel-good movie of the summer! Or, not.

[Tuckerfan]

So... is the lab having a garage sale or anything?


What? They've probably got cool stuff!
Have you heard of MIT's flea market? (http://web.mit.edu/w1mx/www/swapfest.shtml)

[Mouse_Maven]

Sorry to learn of your lab woes. I dunno if you're one of those "misery loves company" types, but I haven't personally heard much of any good news emerge from research academia lately. If I do, I'll try to give a shout out. Meanwhile, happy thoughts.

Our department just recently went through a similar convulsion with the departure of the Research VP, and the repercussions continue. Who knows what tomorrow will bring? Our supervisor called us in the other day to inform us that upper management has noticed a problem with low morale lately, so from now on anyone complaining could be the next to lose their job. So that should solve that problem nicely. Personally I'm keeping my eyes peeled for job openings at the local pet shops just in case.

I've often thought that this line of work would lend itself nicely to a screwball comedy movie. There could be a scene where a group of investigators are arguing with the lab manager, and none of them actually speaks the same language. The plot could revolve around various researchers' attempt to create an incredibly rare strain of mouse model, and their various attempts to sabotage each other in the process. Eventually someone manages to breed a mouse which contains all the desired genes, but before they can use it to found the strain, it escapes! And then you've got this several-hundred-thousand-dollar mouse running around the facility, evading all attempts to catch it. It'd be a madcap laugh-a-minute romp! The feel-good movie of the summer! Or, not.

Its hard to believe that academic science was once cutting edge! Watson and Crick made their ground breaking discovery at Cambridge. This U. did the world's first liver transplant - a procedure completed by early members of our now defuncted department. *sigh*

Like you, the idea of a comedy has crossed my mind. :) Miscommunication - the staple of mass-produced humor - is dead common. PI's don't have a clue how much money they have, or where the tubes are, or how to get into the animal facility. Lab techs have to make sure that the PI gets out of the lab before s/he breaks something.

My favorite story
"I want to use mice for a chemotherapy study!"
"Please discribe your experiment."
"I'll give mice a chemo treatment, then give them acupuncture. The mice will be observed for signs of nausea."
"What would indicate nausea?"
"Vomit."
"Mice don't throw up. That's why poison is so effective against them. Maybe you should re-think this project."

[carnivorousplant]

I
"Mice don't throw up.

Ah! That explains why the little guy could swing from Nadia's mouth like an agility dog's license tag and not be sick! :)

[OtakuLoki]

Mouse_Maven, sorry to hear that the lab's descent into ruin as been rubberstamped. I hope your parachute works, and that others in the lab can find new places to be.

Fuck DH and Spineless Bastard with a fireplug and lapping compound!

[MerryMagdalen]

Mouse_Maven I'm sorry. I only work in a clinical lab - no research - but I know how crazy lab politics can be, and coupled with academia and the egos and money problems therein...erg.

The University of Washington does animal research, and gets a huge amount of research funds. I know a doctoral candidate working with mouse brainstems. Maybe you could relocate?

(If you want her name PM me.)

[Mouse_Maven]

Mouse_Maven I'm sorry. I only work in a clinical lab - no research - but I know how crazy lab politics can be, and coupled with academia and the egos and money problems therein...erg.

The University of Washington does animal research, and gets a huge amount of research funds. I know a doctoral candidate working with mouse brainstems. Maybe you could relocate?

(If you want her name PM me.)

Thank you for the generous offer. Lucky of us, Mouse_Spouse has a good job here. (He's a computer/business guy. The U.'s behavior shocks him. You're highly trained employee with a unique skill set. They're just going to let you go?) We'll tighten our belt and see what life is like after the Mouseling is born. (A recommended daycare center here costs as much as my monthly salary. I know that daycare isn't cheap, but I was shocked!)

My ego hurts more than anything else. I love my work and its been killing me to see it go nowhere.

Fuck the University! Unless you're a "Big Name" researcher, they don't give a rat's ass about you. They're more worried about pulling the football team's (http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/ncaa/article/0,2777,DRMN_23932_5598027,00.html) ass out of the fire than the academic programs.

The new - shit slapped together - buildings are impressive. That's not enough to keep good researchers. They're paid more, given better benfits and administrative support at other institutions.

54% of a grant (there are a few exceptions to this, but most are "taxed") goes to the U. to cover Facilities and Administration. We call it Fucking A! I don't see what we get out of this. The bathrooms don't have soap or paper towels. The floor tiles in this two year-old building are popping up. Our floor doesn't have an autoclave or purified water dispenser because they were "to expensive." :rolleyes: Still constructing new gods-damned buildings. Everyone talks about how great the new hospital is. The Big Wigs aren't fucking stupid. I'd bet that the hospital got better construction because the public will see it. Lots of people go into a hospital. Very few go into a lab.

A researcher gets a million dollar grant to be paid over 10 years. Sounds like a lot doesn't it? After the U. get its cut - the PI is left with $460,000, or $46,000 a year. If this PI does animal research, all of this money will go to that, or it may pay for the salary of a post-doc or senior research assistant. Other grants, with the U. getting its bit, will be needed to pay for supplies and time spent on special equipment maintained by Core facilities. (The Cores cause a lot of headaches. Some techniques need very specialized and sensitive equipment. Its better to have a department buy and maintain the equipment and charge labs for using it. The charges for use will hit your grant whenever that department's finance person gets to it. Its not unusual for a PI to get burned by Core charges that they thought were already paid. One of our researchers just got slamed with $20,000 of charges from several months of work!)

Why can't the researchers keep track of their grants? It can't be that different from balancing a check book, right? Fucking WRONG! The Financial System is esoteric, the programs are designed for accounts. Spend years studying biochemistry and now you have to know what encumberences are? Keep track of the 115 fiscal policies of the U and the policies of the foundations that give you the money. Also, the U takes its F&A a little bit every day. What you have today will be a little less tomorrow, even it you don't buy anything. Its suggested that you get an admin assistant to help with all of this - with WHAT FUCKING MONEY! Anyway, were is the "Administrative" part of this F&A?

*pant* *pant* Ok, I'm going to clean my house. At least that will give me a sense of accomplishment.

[Tranquilis]

Ah!

You're at that Uni. Home of Ward Churchill. I better understand your troubles... My stepfather was a professor at the other Uni, rather further north. I don't know that things were better there, but he never seemed to have trouble getting resources when he needed them, even when his work involved some pretty esoteric stuff... I mean, c'mon? How many people play with batshit that aren't fucking crazy?

[Moirai]

CU is doing this to you?!? Man, my husband's alma mater (law school) gets more fucked up every day... Back in the day, the big scandal was getting DNA from every football player when Coach McCartney's daughter turned up pregnant... ;)

Sorry, mamma. My SILs and BIL were all in academia (UCLA and USC) and got tired of being fucked out of grant money, publications, etc. Two are in the private sector now (big pharm & private practice) and one is only biding time at a uni until the baby is born...

[Swallowed My Cellphone]

Want a couple of hundred mice? They're inbred and have few mutations, so I'll cut you a deal. :DOoooooh, the things I could do with a hundred mice!

:: Starts drafting Evil Plan to conquer the world.... involves mice, teeny tiny little helmets with lazer beams.... ::

[Mouse_Maven]

You're at that Uni. Home of Ward Churchill. I better understand your troubles... My stepfather was a professor at the other Uni, rather further north. I don't know that things were better there, but he never seemed to have trouble getting resources when he needed them, even when his work involved some pretty esoteric stuff... I mean, c'mon? How many people play with batshit that aren't fucking crazy?

Your stepfather works at CSU? The red-headed stepchild of Colorado academics? :D Research on batshit, hell why not?

I applied for a job with CSU, even looked into their vet program. Sounds like a nice place.

My SILs and BIL were all in academia (UCLA and USC) and got tired of being fucked out of grant money, publications, etc. Two are in the private sector now (big pharm & private practice) and one is only biding time at a uni until the baby is born...

I'm glad that your in-laws found better work. Getting in to industry looks really tough!

Mouse_Spouse is encouraging me to go to school full-time next year. Right now, I'm so tired and frustrated, I'd just want to give the fuck up. If I finally finish my Biology BS, what can I do? Return to the U and get my ass losened up? (Guess I'll be keeping that anal training toy my friends gave me.) Try for industry?

:: Starts drafting Evil Plan to conquer the world.... involves mice, teeny tiny little helmets with lazer beams.... ::

Be my guest! Happy conquering :cool:

These mice have repressed immune systems, or none at all. You'll have a War of the Worlds ending to your plans. Unless you take over every computer clean room and clean freak's home in the country.

[carnivorousplant]

RE: Spoiler

You could put 'em in tiny little Dalek suits.

[Mouse_Maven]

RE: Spoiler

You could put 'em in tiny little Dalek suits.

Mice chanting "Exterminate! Exterminate!"? That's irony, isn't it? :p

[Tranquilis]

Your stepfather works at CSU? The red-headed stepchild of Colorado academics? :D Research on batshit, hell why not?

I applied for a job with CSU, even looked into their vet program. Sounds like a nice place.Past tense - He's doing research back in his native California now. But yeah - Was looking at guano accumulations as means of doing long time-frame analysis of air contaminants, especially things like mercury. Bats are a bio-concentrator, use certain roosts in very predictable fashions, over periords of time that begin to make geologic sense. So, if you core a mountain of batshit, you can get a very good idea of polution levels over hundreds, thousands, and even many multiples of thousands of years. His lab included a freezer space full of batshit cores.

Red-headed academic stepchild - Heh! At least that means taking second choice on jerks and political liabilities, too... :p

The Vet program there is simply superior. The only peer to CSU's vet program in the entire US is Penn. One of my numerous sisters has her DVM from CSU (big surprise, eh?), and her profs and peers read like a Whos-Who of the Vet world.




Edit:
Oh, and I would pay money to see mice Daleks. The irony would be worth the admission, alone.

[Mouse_Maven]

His lab included a freezer space full of batshit cores.

For some reason, this has me giggling like mad. If your stepfather still has those cores. I'd trade a rat's ass for one. :p

Red-headed academic stepchild - Heh! At least that means taking second choice on jerks and political liabilities, too... :p

The Vet program there is simply superior. The only peer to CSU's vet program in the entire US is Penn. One of my numerous sisters has her DVM from CSU (big surprise, eh?), and her profs and peers read like a Whos-Who of the Vet world.

I've never understood why CU and its campuses got so much attention. (I'll stop being coy. Here (http://www.uchsc.edu/index.htm) is where I work. In the sake of fairness - very un-Pit like - my experiences do not speak for the whole place.) Colorado has several other high quality colleges. If I was ten years younger, and not expecting, I'd be busting my ass to get into CSU's vet program.

Oh, and I would pay money to see mice Daleks. The irony would be worth the admission, alone.

That's it! Dopers, lets take our collective intelligence and create mouse-powered Daleks!! We can take over the World!!
Whaaaaaa-HaHaHa!!!!

I got dibs on who they attack first. Just need to find a couple of addresses. Exterminate! Exterminate! Fuckers!

[carnivorousplant]

I got dibs on who they attack first.

Hey, it's my idea, and I've got a little list, myself. :)

[Mouse_Maven]

Hey, it's my idea, and I've got a little list, myself. :)

My mice. Ok, not technically mine, but I've been playing with their lives for several generations now. Priority due to delusion of murine divinity. :p

[carnivorousplant]

Priority due to delusion of murine divinity. :p

Okay, fine.
But I pick the secondary targets.

[Tranquilis]

Can I choose the collateral damage?

[Mouse_Maven]

Okay, fine.
But I pick the secondary targets.

Deal!

Ah, do you know why a big blue box just appear in the basement?

[carnivorousplant]

Ah, do you know why a big blue box just appear in the basement?


Moi?

[El Cid Viscoso]

You know, the instant I noticed this thread I thought it was about this lab (http://www.knoxnews.com/kns/national/article/0,1406,KNS_350_5600228,00.html).

Bummer about CU, sincerely. It's in need of serious global reform.

[Mouse_Maven]

You know, the instant I noticed this thread I thought it was about this lab (http://www.knoxnews.com/kns/national/article/0,1406,KNS_350_5600228,00.html).

Bummer about CU, sincerely. It's in need of serious global reform.

Wow! That makes my cats' behavior look much better.

As for CU, I have been disgruntled with them for awhile. This Pit was sparked by the fact that the mother-fucking admin will cough up the NCAA fine and take away funding from research - letting an entire department die.

Atheltics vs. Academics at a university is throughly beaten corpse. IMHO, this U. has over-extended itself. It needs to reorganize and get a cohesive vision.

[Tranquilis]

If I was ten years younger, and not expecting, I'd be busting my ass to get into CSU's vet program.If it's any encouragement, my sister didn't graduate until her early 30s - She took the scenic academic route - And she wasn't the oldest graduate in her class, either.

OTOH, from what I saw, having a baby underfoot would pretty much doom you - You'd either need very good support in taking care of el bambino, or wait even longer.

[Rick]

If I was ten years younger, and not expecting, I'd be busting my ass to get into CSU's vet program.
Mouse you bring a lot to the party, give the vet school some more thought. Will it be easy with a mini-mouse? No, it won't. but it won't be impossible either.

And just think how good your practice's accounts receivable will look with little mice in Dalek suits chanting exterminate! doing the collections.

[stochastic]

Mouse Maven-
I know exactly what you're going through. When I was a post-doc, my PI was a clueless fucktard and the admins at the institution enabled his fuckery. After 3 years of his insanity (and I could go into a lot more gory details), I finally literally told them all to "fuck off", quit his lab, quit research, and now I teach. I have many bright students that want to go into science, and I am very conscientious in telling them my tale and warning them to be prepared to wade through piles of BS on their way.

I feel bad for how you're being treated, lab techs are the beating heart of a lab...grad students and post-docs come and go, but lab techs that hang around keep the lab functioning as it should. I chuckled at your dialog about the chemotherapy/mouse study proposed by the PI. I was a lab tech myself for many years as an undergrad and a couple of years after getting my B.S., and it was the realization that I was every bit as intelligent (and sometimes more so) than the people that were my "superiors" that helped spur me on to get my Ph.D.

I might add, and I hesitate to do so because it may be more discouraging to you than helpful, that the things that made my decision to chuck a high-end research career easier was the wife and baby at home that didn't get to see much of me because I was spending so much time chained to the lab bench. Domestic tranquility was also strained by the fact that the stipend and benefits given to post-docs go beyond suck, my wife's profession pays crap also, and we were sinking into an abyss of debt and depression with no hope in sight. I ultimately chose what I saw was quality family life versus a career path that isn't very family-friendly. If you have a child on the way, don't be surprised (like I was) that your priorities in life may take a turn. There's a reason why most scientists (and other higher-educated professionals) marry late and have children even later, it's very difficult to balance the needs of being a new parent and build a successful career at the same time- I chose not to play that game. Not to say it can't be done: those that I personally know that did the build a family + science career thing either A) had lots of money (rich family or had a highly-paid spouse) and could pay to have a live-in nanny/maid/slave, B) had lots of local familial support (i.e a live-in grandma that could serve as a free nanny/maid/slave.) or C) had a miserable home life and are now divorced.

Good-luck. You seem like the type that will land on their feet, so don't fret too much.

btw...those wouldn't happen to be using SCID mice you're working with?

[Mouse_Maven]

And just think how good your practice's accounts receivable will look with little mice in Dalek suits chanting exterminate! doing the collections.

My mini-Daleks would wreak havok on ankles around the world!!!! :D

Mouse Maven-
I know exactly what you're going through. When I was a post-doc, my PI was a clueless fucktard and the admins at the institution enabled his fuckery. After 3 years of his insanity (and I could go into a lot more gory details), I finally literally told them all to "fuck off", quit his lab, quit research, and now I teach. I have many bright students that want to go into science, and I am very conscientious in telling them my tale and warning them to be prepared to wade through piles of BS on their way.

I feel bad for how you're being treated, lab techs are the beating heart of a lab...grad students and post-docs come and go, but lab techs that hang around keep the lab functioning as it should. I chuckled at your dialog about the chemotherapy/mouse study proposed by the PI. I was a lab tech myself for many years as an undergrad and a couple of years after getting my B.S., and it was the realization that I was every bit as intelligent (and sometimes more so) than the people that were my "superiors" that helped spur me on to get my Ph.D.

A couple of years ago, I got my first job as a lab tech. Before that, I was an animal care tech. My experience with the research animals got me that job.

I was very grateful to be given the opportunity to do reasearch, even though I was going to school part-time to get my BS. For three years, I managed a four strain colony of mice, the lab accounts and ordering, did necropsies, collected tumors, processed those tumors for pathology, cell culture, cyro-freezing, and flow cytometry. I provided these tissues for the PI, a post-doc, and three fellows! They all thought that animal handling was "gross" and didn't want to do it, but they needed the bits for their research. When their big research paper was finished, I fought tooth and nail to get an authorship. I was the one coming into the lab at 6 am to thaw and prep cells for flow. My photos of the necropsies were in the paper. And I did all of this making less than standard starting tech pay because I didn't have a degree!

I got the authorship, but it was a hollow victory. Since I take classes part time, I tried to use the paper as a way to get academic credit for my work. My advisor basically said, "That's nice, but your GPA is to low to qualify for an independent study program." :mad: All those early mornings and late night in the lab took time away from my studies.

I might add, and I hesitate to do so because it may be more discouraging to you than helpful, that the things that made my decision to chuck a high-end research career easier was the wife and baby at home that didn't get to see much of me because I was spending so much time chained to the lab bench. Domestic tranquility was also strained by the fact that the stipend and benefits given to post-docs go beyond suck, my wife's profession pays crap also, and we were sinking into an abyss of debt and depression with no hope in sight. I ultimately chose what I saw was quality family life versus a career path that isn't very family-friendly. If you have a child on the way, don't be surprised (like I was) that your priorities in life may take a turn. There's a reason why most scientists (and other higher-educated professionals) marry late and have children even later, it's very difficult to balance the needs of being a new parent and build a successful career at the same time- I chose not to play that game. Not to say it can't be done: those that I personally know that did the build a family + science career thing either A) had lots of money (rich family or had a highly-paid spouse) and could pay to have a live-in nanny/maid/slave, B) had lots of local familial support (i.e a live-in grandma that could serve as a free nanny/maid/slave.) or C) had a miserable home life and are now divorced.

Good-luck. You seem like the type that will land on their feet, so don't fret too much.

Because of my experiences, I have adopted a "only 40 hours a week" attitude. Its sad, really. After years of being told that hard work will bring rewards and opportunities, I have had to set boundries. Students and PI's don't like it, but they have to suck it up.

What to do for a living is on my mind. I'm 16 credit hours away from finishing my fucking BS. Mouse_Spouse can work from home a few days a week and is willing to mind the Mouseling while I go to school full-time. After the baby is born, and we get into a routine, I'll look into this. Maybe I can move into industry. If it doesn't look like Spouse will get transferred because of work, and his job isn't out-sourced to India, maybe we'll consider vet school.

Worse case senario: I work admin some where. Its not what I like, but I've got tons of experience and the money is green.

btw...those wouldn't happen to be using SCID mice you're working with?

We've got SCIDs, NODs, GFPs (green glow mice!) and a couple of transgenic strains that produce only B or T cells. No Nudes, but they'd be fun to have. :)

(I'm a mouse nerd. If I could, I'd attempt to cross breed GFPs and Nudes. Naked glowing mice would look cool!)

[Mouse_Maven]

The Spineless Bastard just walked in the lab showing someone the "Great research space." :rolleyes:

The Fucker is picking over our corpse. He must have seen this coming. Otherwise, he wouldn't be giving the person a tour.

I'm tempted to approach the canidate (I'm assuming that's who he's showing around) and tell her, "Oh hello! Did you know that the last person who interviewed for a PI position with this Bastard was told she'd get no funding and promised her used equipment that actually belongs to my lab, not the Bastard. He's a lot of fucking fun!" The bastard actually did this last year to a candiate after DH annouced that he was leaving. I know because she told me!

Eat shit and DIE, you stump-fucking asshole!

[Tranquilis]

Can you get the cadidates e-mail? An anonymous word to the wise might look good on your karma balance cheet.

[Mouse_Maven]

Can you get the cadidates e-mail? An anonymous word to the wise might look good on your karma balance cheet.

I didn't get a look at the person Bastard was showing around. If I knew who she was, I'd definately send an email telling her want happend to the last candidate and mention the two sexual harassment complaints against The Spineless Bastard.

I'm getting to worked up over this. We're dead. Its over. This department will fold, and as long as the fucking football team is funded and this campus looks good, no one will give a flying fuck.

Its really tempting to pack up my stuff. Email my boss, "Call me when you've made a god-damned decision" and go home. :mad:

[Tranquilis]

We're dead. Its over. This department will fold, and as long as < ...snip... > this campus looks good, no one will give a flying fuck. , Oh, that can't be entirely true - Otherwise someone would've muzzled Ward Churchill a long time ago.

But yeah, I hear you. Morale is in the crapper, and the Uni Admin ain't doing anything to help. Bummer, du. Don't do anything too drastic in the bridge-burning department - Academia has a loooooong memory. Also, considering how near to term you are, hormones may be playing a substantial part in your low morale.

[Mouse_Maven]

, Oh, that can't be entirely true - Otherwise someone would've muzzled Ward Churchill a long time ago.

Good point. The whole Churchill debacle had a lot of things the media likes: 9/11 and Nazi reference, race, free speech issues.

We just had our funding taken away. It would be hard to explain that the U. is getting over its head financially because of the Fitz contruction.

The only other thing we have going on that's "news worthy" is some blatant sexism. The Spineless Bastard has had two sexual harassment complaints filed against him. A (woman) PI left the U. rather than put up with his shit any longer. He is actively trying to keep two (women) post-docs from this department from getting jobs with other labs.

hormones may be playing a substantial part in your low morale.

Another good point. *sigh* I'm out of venom. I'll hope that the Bastard has a streak of bad luck similar to Herr Starr's (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herr_Starr).

[Tranquilis]

Well, now what? Do you get another paycheck, or is this it - de facto layoff?

Whatever, may everyone get the karma they deserve.

[Mouse_Maven]

Well, now what? Do you get another paycheck, or is this it - de facto layoff?

I have no idea - its driving me nuts!

I want to walk away from all of this. Relax, regroup, and pull my head out of my ass. Sadly, I'm listed on all of our hazardous waste and bio safety protocols. If my boss is leaving research, there is a set procedure to shut down the lab. I'd get called up to sweep the floors and turn out the lights - so to speak. Dr. Boss doesn't bother to answer my emails, pages or phone messages I doubt he'd step up to close things down.

Also, I have 700+ hours of sick and vacation time built up. The U is generous with giving time off, but researchers aren't willing to let you go. You can't leave for a week! Who's going to check on the mice/order supplies/dissect? For the past couple of months, I've been using up the sick time - a sudden allergy to assholes.

I'm not doing a damned thing until I know I'm getting paid!

[Fir na tine]

Mouse Maven, could you clear up a few points for us civilians?

My only experience with college was attending one and getting a degree and leaving. My vague understanding of the various labs that colleges and universities run was that they exist to help students learn the various specialized "things" that don't translate well from the written page.

Your posts seem to show that there is a quasi business aspect to the labs that goes way - way beyond anything required for higher education. Seems more like a self perpetuating business model.

Who pays for all this? Is it tax money? Private funding? I don't understand who foots the bill and who should be holding Dr. Boss's feet to the fire. As a manager it's obvious he sucks. Who is his boss?

Can you clarify some of this for those of us not in the trade?

Thanks!

By the way, unless your employee manual specifically states in writing that you will be paid for your unused vacation on termination, I'd recommend going on vacation right now! You need to remember that you are Job #1.

[Mouse_Maven]

Mouse Maven, could you clear up a few points for us civilians?

My only experience with college was attending one and getting a degree and leaving. My vague understanding of the various labs that colleges and universities run was that they exist to help students learn the various specialized "things" that don't translate well from the written page.

Your posts seem to show that there is a quasi business aspect to the labs that goes way - way beyond anything required for higher education. Seems more like a self perpetuating business model.

Who pays for all this? Is it tax money? Private funding? I don't understand who foots the bill and who should be holding Dr. Boss's feet to the fire. As a manager it's obvious he sucks. Who is his boss?

Can you clarify some of this for those of us not in the trade?

Thanks!

By the way, unless your employee manual specifically states in writing that you will be paid for your unused vacation on termination, I'd recommend going on vacation right now! You need to remember that you are Job #1.

Since I have worked at this University my entire career, I can only explain how this U’s research branch does things. Please take whatever I have to say with a grain of salt, this is strictly as I see it.

A research lab serves two main purposes. One is to give training to students - undergraduates, graduates, and fellows (typically, these are students with a doctorate or MD that are going into a specialty). The other purpose is to bring in funding. Grant money from the NIH and other health related agencies and charitable foundations are the most common source of funds. Also, research can lead to actual products, ideally medications. If a researcher discovers something as could be marketed to the outside world, the U. will offer help with copyrights, patents, etc. This assistance is given with the understanding that the U. will receive a percentage of any profit made off of the product. (It is not uncommon for a researcher to find something promising, resign from the U. and start their own business or join an established biotech company.)

The lab I work for is not considered a “money maker.” We study the immune response to organ transplants. Our goal is (was?) to identify what parts of the immune system are responsible for organ rejection, and work out a way to prevent or stop this process. Hopefully, this would end - or at least reduce - the need of an organ recipient to take immune suppressants. To the world at large, organ transplants are old news, so there are very few grant opportunities in our field right now. Cancer, heart disease and stem cell research are some subjects that get more attention, and therefore more money.

The University offers very little assistance to the research labs, unless the researcher brings in a lot of prestige and money. When another institution was wooing our now-departed Department Head, this U. gave a large sum of money to the department in order to keep the DH. (At an immunology conference, the DH was introduced as “The man who needs no introduction.” He’s very well known in this field.) A year after the U’s gift, DH announced that he was taking a position in Canada. Last week, we were told that the U. was taking back what was left of the funding given to this department. This loss, coupled with the defection of the DH – he was our “headline” researcher, his name alone could bring in funding - has bankrupted us. None of this department’s junior researchers have the experience or reputation to quickly bring in more grants. (Getting grants is a strange game all by itself. It’s a combination of good ideas, knowing “the right” people and luck.)

I work for a Pediatric Cardiologist; Dr. Boss’ supervisors are at the local Children’s Hospital. This hospital’s cardiology department has been understaffed from months, so Dr. Boss has been picking up the slack. From what I’ve heard, Dr. Boss’ supervisors want to keep him happy and support his research. They’ve offered funding, but have not given Dr. Boss the time needed for him to leave the hospital and come to the lab. I can do a lot of things, but I need to know what direction Boss wants to go in. Without that input, I’m useless.

Two years ago, Dr. Boss had a stress-induced heart attack. I will not be surprised if he quits research and goes into private practice, all of this insanity may be what pushes him to that decision.

I hope this clears things up a little. Sorry it’s so long.

[Yllaria]

Originally Posted by Fir na tine

Who pays for all this?

Whoever they can convince to pay for it. I was only attached to one research team (a small one) for a few years, but I added up the time, once, and we were spending about a third of our time applying for various grants. We applied to government funding agencies, organizations promoting industries or interest groups, and non-profit funding agencies. When the grants couldn't keep up with the cost of the research, the project closed down.

Mouse_Maven, does about a third of the time sound about right to you?

[Mouse_Maven]

Whoever they can convince to pay for it. I was only attached to one research team (a small one) for a few years, but I added up the time, once, and we were spending about a third of our time applying for various grants. We applied to government funding agencies, organizations promoting industries or interest groups, and non-profit funding agencies. When the grants couldn't keep up with the cost of the research, the project closed down.

Mouse_Maven, does about a third of the time sound about right to you?

Yep. Also, the more senior the researcher, the more time s/he will spend on grants and networking to get funding. A PI can get to a point were all they do is network, politic, fill out grant applications and write papers. They just come up with ideas, delegate them to the lab manager and check on the project's progress occasionally.

[Tranquilis]

A PI can get to a point were all they do is network, politic, fill out grant applications and write papers. They just come up with ideas, delegate them to the lab manager and check on the project's progress occasionally.Seems ike a horrible mis-use of a supposedly-brilliant researcher's time and mental energy. One would think they'd be better employed coming up with brilliant ideas, and leave the money-grubbing to specialists...

Yeah, I know, it doesn't work like that. I sit in an office right next to the Medical Education Group in my Pharma, and I hear the conversations about grant requests. Mostly, at our level, the research grants* are based upon merit - if it's a good sounding idea, and presented in a credible fashion such that we think there's going to be good science on a subject we care about, we'll fund it - no schmoozing required. But the kinds of grants we give out will not, generally, fund an entire project - only fill in some of the financial gaps. The MEGO people are the ones the PIs apply to, after they've got their main funding, and once they've identified the shortfalls in their funding structure.


* There other grants for symposia and the like, for purposes of spreading general scientific knowledge, and for spreading specific product-related knowledge, too. We generally don't set those up, but we will fund PIs and others who want to go to such events to present their papers on what they discovered whilst researching our products, and so on.

[Mouse_Maven]

Seems ike a horrible mis-use of a supposedly-brilliant researcher's time and mental energy. One would think they'd be better employed coming up with brilliant ideas, and leave the money-grubbing to specialists...

The main reason DH left us is because the Canadian University offered to hire someone to do the money-grubbing, freeing him to actually do research.

[Tranquilis]

The main reason DH left us is because the Canadian University offered to hire someone to do the money-grubbing, freeing him to actually do research.Nice work, if you can find it... Oh, wait. I suppose he did. Can't say as I blame him. And it's probably to the Uni's benefit, too - more science productivity means more grants, thus more income.

[Mouse_Maven]

Nice work, if you can find it... Oh, wait. I suppose he did. Can't say as I blame him.

I can. The fucking DH was very picky about what got published. He was always listed as first author, so he looked great. His grad students, post-docs and the junior researchers he was mentoring got fucked by a lack of journal publications. He sent us an article written about him by the Canadian U. DH was talking about how great he is and the plans he has. Never mentioned us, or the work we did as a team that got him that great fucking job. :mad:

On a positive note:

I am one step (http://www.dalekcity.co.uk/) closer to the mouse daleks (http://www.btinternet.com/~tobor/daleksmon.jpg)!

Exterminate! Exterminate! :D

[carnivorousplant]

I am one step (http://www.dalekcity.co.uk/) closer to the mouse daleks (http://www.btinternet.com/~tobor/daleksmon.jpg)!

Much to discuss here.

The Dalek Dome is one of the hardest parts of building a Dalek
to get correct. A wrongly shaped or badly formed dome will
immediately make your Dalek look wrong.

All Hail Mouse_Maven for using mice! The minuscule scale will hide defects!

RE: "A wrongly shaped" WTH writes like that? The British invented a language they cannot speak.

RE: "make you Dalek look wrong." Oh yeah? Who's gonna live long enough to tell him?

Perhaps we should deploy a larger scale prototype here and crew it with my terrier. She is half wire haired dachshund and already looks wrong. And I have that little list that grows each day.

[Tranquilis]

His grad students, post-docs and the junior researchers he was mentoring got fucked by a lack of journal publications.Ah. That's different. Sadly common, but different.

I deal with publications a lot, every study report I publish has typically a dozen or more referenced publications cited, and I keep seeing the same authors over and over again, per subject. It's interesting to read the list of co-authors. It's uncommon to see two heavy-hitters lited in the same article. Three is downright rare. It's also common to see a PI who never has a repeat co-author. Some of them switch out a lot. I wonder why...


Edit:
Oh, and: I welcome our new M.Musculus overlords.

[Mouse_Maven]

RE: "make you Dalek look wrong." Oh yeah? Who's gonna live long enough to tell him?

:D :D This made me laugh out loud. Thank you!

Perhaps we should deploy a larger scale prototype here and crew it with my terrier. She is half wire haired dachshund and already looks wrong. And I have that little list that grows each day.

Your dog could make a good gold Dalek. Leading all of the little mice into battle against our enemies! Yes! My cats are acting suspicious. We may have to silence them. ::furtive glance at cat. Cat arches his back and runs like hell.::

The U is in the news (http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/education/article/0,1299,DRMN_957_5604826,00.html) again. Apparently, the regents are looking at a tuition increase that will apply to all campuses.

I'm so fucking burnt out and cynical. Its sad that students have to bare the brunt of the lack of funding. If you want a decent-paying job, the common perception is that at least a BS is needed. With government funds for higher education being cut, colleges have to make up the gap.

[CrankyAsAnOldMan]

A research lab serves two main purposes. One is to give training to students - undergraduates, graduates, and fellows (typically, these are students with a doctorate or MD that are going into a specialty). The other purpose is to bring in funding.


It strikes me that you've left out the fact that the purpose of research is to discover new knowledge.

If it also has commercial applications, awesome. The fact that it helps pay faculty salaries and equip laboratories with equipment is also terrific. But the point of research is to advance himan knowledge in the field.

I also take issue with the allegation that academic research "used to be" cutting edge. Some of it still is.

I am sorry you are getting the shaft.

[Nava]

It strikes me that you've left out the fact that the purpose of research is to discover new knowledge.

If it also has commercial applications, awesome. The fact that it helps pay faculty salaries and equip laboratories with equipment is also terrific. But the point of research is to advance human knowledge in the field.

Ah, but too often it's not. About half of the guest seminars we got when I was in grad school were "for beauty's sake" - I'll take that in the Art School, but in Chemistry I'd like to have seminar speakers who can actually answer the question I asked them every single time:
"what have we learned from your research?"


Real example:
one of the basic formulas of thermodynamics is DG = DH - (T*DS) where the Ds should actually be deltas but I'm lazy. If you look at the compiled tables of G, H and S for well-studied reactions and apply the formula, you'll find differences between "the best value of DG" and "the best value of DH - (T*DS)" as high as 20%.
We had a guy who had been able to obtain values of DH with 16 decimals. They still had a similar error margin as the ones already in the literature, but hey, his had 16 decimals! Previous work had 8!
Using double precission variables doesn't mean your results are better than other people's... :smack:



A friend of mine (who just got his Professorship, woohoo!) is in the field of crop prediction. He's developed "ruler, tailor's tape, fingers, pen and paper" methods to guesstimate crops - this is essential for the agricultural insurance industry; the guys currently doing those guesses by reading the guts of moles that have been run over by the farmer's tractor would like to study his guts, because they fear he'll take them out of their jobs. He's been told that his pursuits are "too practical"...

[OtakuLoki]

Nava, I don't doubt a word you've said. But 'too practial?' Wubba?

[carnivorousplant]

Your dog could make a good gold Dalek. Leading all of the little mice into battle against our enemies! Yes! My cats are acting suspicious.

_________________________
Sally at work.
Fred at work.
Tom at work.
The Fedex Guy.
Real estate lady.
Insurance Adjuster.
Robert at work.
_________________________

Hunh? Sorry, I had a document open in another window.

She's kind of tight with the cats. It would be a good idea not to let her speak with them. If the cats acquire Dalek technology, we will be greeting our Feline Overlords indeed.

[FisherQueen]

I'm really concerned about the inbred, immune-suppressed mice. I don't suppose there's any chance they'll be going to loving homes as pets when the lab closes, is there?

Oh, and sorry about your job.

[Mouse_Maven]

I'm really concerned about the inbred, immune-suppressed mice. I don't suppose there's any chance they'll be going to loving homes as pets when the lab closes, is there?

Research mice make very poor pets. They are not as robust as your typical rodent. We keep them in controlled conditions in order to protect them from disease. (I have pissed off several friends by refusing to go to their homes. They have pet mice and hamsters. Since my mice are immune suppressed, I do not want to risk bringing anything to the colony. I'm so anal about it, I have clothes that are stickly for work and will not stop by a pet store on the way home. Sorry honey. You'll have to get the cat food. I haven't changed.)

Right now, I am making inquiries with other labs. These animals can be used in other research and transfered to other labs. I've asked the animal care staff to recommend some researchers that use these strains and can take care of them. (The well-being of these animals is my primary concern. Anyone in the lab will tell you that I do not stand for disrepectful or cruel behavior. Dr. Boss and I had an infamous screaming match about animal use protocol. Animal testing is necessary, but it doesn't mean that the creatures' lives are worthless.)

[Tranquilis]

(The well-being of these animals is my primary concern. Anyone in the lab will tell you that I do not stand for disrepectful or cruel behavior. Dr. Boss and I had an infamous screaming match about animal use protocol. Animal testing is necessary, but it doesn't mean that the creatures' lives are worthless.)God, but they'll be losing a solid-gold assest when you depart! That's precisely the correct attiude - Morally, ethically, and scientifically.