Hotdogs and catsup/ketchup. What's the big deal?

[Gary "Wombat" Robson]

I don't understand the depth of feeling that so many people have about what condiments other people put on their hotdogs. In the currently-running ketchup on steak thread, mention was swiftly made of those heathens that put ketchup on hotdogs.

Okay, I'll admit this. Ketchup is used to add flavor to bland foods. I would never put ketchup on a bratwurst, a kielbasa, or a banger. But your basic Oscar Meyer hotdog is pretty darned tasteless. Given my druthers, I'd barbecue it and add some good spicy brown mustard and sweet pickle relish. Or maybe just a good barbecue sauce. At many little hotdog stands, though, the only "mustard" they have is that grotesque yellow stuff, which I simply won't eat. Thus, the hotdog gets ketchup.

But that's not my point, or my question. My question is, WHY does it make the slightest bit of difference how someone else prepares their food? Personally, it wouldn't bother me a bit it you cut open your hotdog, stuffed it with blackberries, breaded it, wrapped it in rhubarb, deep-fried it, and served it on a Krispy Kreme doughnut with a dollop of cream cheese and a sprinkling of chopped walnuts. It's your hotdog.

So, if you're one of the card-carrying, banner-bearing, anti-ketchupists, please explain why it matters to you what's on someone else's wiener*?

*Yes, Swampbear, that straight line is there just for you. Go for it.

[Dung Beetle]

I'm a ketchup hater, and I freely admit that my aversion is illogical. I hated it long before I ever had to scrub its dried remains off baseboards at McDonalds. It looks like blood, it tastes sweet…I'm gagging.

And you eat it??? How could you? Why, I oughtta…[insert imaginative violent act that won't get me in trouble with the mods]

[pulykamell]

So, if you're one of the card-carrying, banner-bearing, anti-ketchupists, please explain why it matters to you what's on someone else's wiener*?
[/SIZE]

It doesn't...unless you're advertising it as a "Chicago-style hot dog." Or if you operate in the city of Chicago and put ketchup on an "everything on it" dog. (One place in the Loop does this and it drives me nuts. I don't go there anymore.) For me, it's a Chicago tradition thing. We were born and raised not to put ketchup on hotdogs, it doesn't belong there. Even Cecil agrees.

[essell]

IIRC the average weiner is made of the 'ass parts of the animal'. The floor sweepings. And you're worried about what condiments are on it?

[Flutterby]

It doesn't really matter to me, but it gives me a shudder every time.

I just don't like ketchup. I can't think of the last time I used ketchup except as a base for some of my sauces or for my son's food on occasion. I figure if I'm putting ketchup on something it's to mask how bad it really is.

If you want to douse things with ketchup go ahead, I honestly don't care as long as you aren't putting it on food I've prepared that tastes just fine as is. My brother does it sometimes when he comes over and I have to bite my tongue since it seems like he's insulting the food (and my cooking) though I know that's not his intent.

[Leaffan]

Ketchup on a hot dog is as common as ketchup on a burger, at least in my neck of the woods. I'd never heard it was a faux pas until I read a long-ago previous thread here on SDMB.

The more stuff you can put on a dog to hide the real taste, the better: including onions, relish, mustard, and hot peppers.

[Gary "Wombat" Robson]

[Ketchup] looks like blood, it tastes sweet…I'm gagging.I just can't tell you how amusing this is coming from someone (nick)named "Dung Beetle." :D

[pulykamell]

The more stuff you can put on a dog to hide the real taste, the better.

There are such things as good-tasting hot dogs, believe it or not. In my neck of the woods, the natural casing Vienna Beef dogs and Chicago Red Hots are pretty tasty on their own. Oscar Meyers and their ilk are so far removed from what a real hot dog should taste like.

[Dung Beetle]

I just can't tell you how amusing this is coming from someone (nick)named "Dung Beetle." :D
I've made my choice and I stand by it! :D

[Arnold Winkelried]

Even Cecil agrees.And the link!
Why is there no ketchup on a properly made hot dog? (30-Aug-1991) (http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a3_095.html)[T]his is like asking why Leonardo didn't paint the Mona Lisa on black velvet.

[Argent Towers]

"I like ketchup on my hotdog." - Adolf Hitler




Nothing more needs to be said.

[Antinor01]

And the link!
Why is there no ketchup on a properly made hot dog? (30-Aug-1991) (http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a3_095.html)

But you may be certain what he's thinking: "Behold this creature that walks like a man. It wants ketchup on its hot dog."


A high ranking contender as one of my favorite Cecil lines of all time.

[tdn]

There are such things as good-tasting hot dogs, believe it or not.
Damn straight. I'm on a lifelong quest to find the perfect hot dog and the perfect mustard. I think I'll never find it unless I go to central/eastern Europe.

I'll take up the question of why the rabid hatred, since AFAIK I'm the first one to post it, at least in my memory of the boards.

It's vile! To me, those are two tastes that simply don't go together. Like ice cream and bologna. BBQ sauce is right out as well, unless it is also topped with cole slaw. Then it's a shaggy dog, and is more pleasurable than sex.

As far as insulting people who defile their weiners, it's just ribbing. It's a joke, son.

[Belrix]

...you cut open your hotdog, stuffed it with blackberries, breaded it, wrapped it in rhubarb, deep-fried it, and served it on a Krispy Kreme doughnut with a dollop of cream cheese and a sprinkling of chopped walnuts.
I must be hungry, the back of my brain said, "Hmm... doesn't sound half bad..."

I think it's the "deep fried" part.

On Edit: Just a big shout-out for Hebrew National hot dogs. Best in America, IMO.

[tdn]

On Edit: Just a big shout-out for Hebrew National hot dogs. Best in America, IMO.
Naw -- Maple Leaf. They crunch.

[Shagnasty]

I was about to pile-on about the ketchup as well but then your threw in the sweet relish and I realized that you are sensory disabled and more deserving of pitty rather than scorn. Those things obviously don't go together (sweet relish doesn't even go with itself) and yet you have no idea.

I don't have a problem with people slapping grape jelly and caviar on their hotdog if they do it in their home. However, my wife and her family are major gourmet foods importers and distributors. I am a good cook and have a good feel for what goes with what and how. If you eat at our house and start pouring ketchup over fine, expensive ingrediants that are well thought out and prepared carefully, you probably aren't coming back. It isn't a capital crime but it does indicate personality, upbringing, and lifestyle issues that I don't find admirable.

This sounds oddly like something I got pitted for once but the fact still remains that the sun sets in the West.

[Zambini57]

If you want to put ketchup on your hot-dog, put it on.

It actually doesn't taste bad at all.

But, you will run into food snobs at all levels, even at the lowly level of the hot-dog.

It's pathetic, the number of people out there in search of the "perfect" hot-dog, or the "perfect" soft ice cream.

Those pitiful people, in my opinion are nothing more than sad, raw souls trying to exert control over something that was never meant to be controlled, in a sorry attempt to become the arbiters of something that is bigger and more important than they are.

Ignore them, because all they have are their own taste buds, which amounts to exactly Jack Squat.

Put whatever you want on your dog, and enjoy it.

Don't listen to provincial jackasses from NYC or Chicago telling you what you should or shouldn't like.

[Ceejaytee]

I like ketchup, but it's just the wrong kind of taste for a hot dog. You need spicy with a dog, like a good brown mustard and/or sauerkraut. You can put sweet relish on a dog, but only if you put the brown mustard on first, to get that spicy/sweet combination. Ketchup just seems wrong to me. Even my husband, whose first choice of condiment is ketchup (followed by BBQ sauce) puts mustard on hot dogs.

But I wouldn't make ewwww noises at you if you ate it like that. i wouldn't even think less of you. Personal taste is just that--personal.

[Cervaise]

But your basic Oscar Meyer hotdog is pretty darned tasteless.The question is whether or not anyone likes ketchup.

The question is why you are putting up with shitty sausages.

[tdn]

It's pathetic, the number of people out there in search of the "perfect" hot-dog, or the "perfect" soft ice cream.
How so? And no, the explanation that you offered doesn't fly. What's wrong with me wanting to find a dog more delicious than the last one I had? I've already said that I really don't care what other people eat. Am I still pitiful?

[silenus]

Ketchup on hot dogs is one of those "If only we'd noticed the signs sooner" serial-killer traits. I object to it in public because it might lead a child somewhere to think that that sort of behavior is somehow proper and decent and acceptable by Society.

Won't somebody think of the children?

[Zambini57]

Ketchup on hot dogs is one of those "If only we'd noticed the signs sooner" serial-killer traits. I object to it in public because it might lead a child somewhere to think that that sort of behavior is somehow proper and decent and acceptable by Society.

Won't somebody think of the children?

Pretty closed-minded for SoCal.

But, who cares, anyway?

[Shagnasty]

If you want to put ketchup on your hot-dog, put it on.

It actually doesn't taste bad at all.

But, you will run into food snobs at all levels, even at the lowly level of the hot-dog.

It's pathetic, the number of people out there in search of the "perfect" hot-dog, or the "perfect" soft ice cream.

Those pitiful people, in my opinion are nothing more than sad, raw souls trying to exert control over something that was never meant to be controlled, in a sorry attempt to become the arbiters of something that is bigger and more important than they are.

Ignore them, because all they have are their own taste buds, which amounts to exactly Jack Squat.

Put whatever you want on your dog, and enjoy it.

Don't listen to provincial jackasses from NYC or Chicago telling you what you should or shouldn't like.

The only problem with all that is that it doesn't just apply to food. It applies to music, fashion, art, mass entertainment, and every other aspects of culture. People are free to violate the conventions of course but it is much more likely that they are ignorant of what is better rather just being a pure individual. I have thought some things in areas I didn't know about were silly and arbitrary and then I finally listened and found out that it often pays to listen to people that care about a given subject no matter how mundane.

That isn't to say that there aren't any snobs around that strive to make fun of people that aren't in their club. Wine snobs and the modern art community are two that have always ticked me off.

In summary, people don't usually make this stuff up and image sometimes matters. Ketchup is mostly for seafood, french fries, and kids (do they still make the purple kind?) Tastes have to be cultivated and nurtured. Ketchup steals your tongue's IQ.

[tdn]

Eww! Shagnasty, I'll give you fair warning -- you come within a mile of my Maine lobster with that ketchup bottle, and I will get violent!

[gigi]

If you eat at our house and start pouring ketchup over fine, expensive ingrediants that are well thought out and prepared carefully, you probably aren't coming back. It isn't a capital crime but it does indicate personality, upbringing, and lifestyle issues that I don't find admirable.

This sounds oddly like something I got pitted for once but the fact still remains that the sun sets in the West.My upbringing says make guests feel comfortable and invite them to enjoy their meal. I see your side but that's given that your purpose for entertaining is different from mine.

I like Nathan's hot dogs with yellow mustard, though, so I'm a philistine. ;)

[Zambini57]

Eww! Shagnasty, I'll give you fair warning -- you come within a mile of my Maine lobster with that ketchup bottle, and I will get violent!

Oh, brother.

Suppose someone just happens to like the taste of Maine lobster with ketchup on it?

What's that to you?

Mind your own business.

[Dung Beetle]

Oh, brother.

Suppose someone just happens to like the taste of Maine lobster with ketchup on it?

What's that to you?

Mind your own business.
That's it. You're going on The List!

[Left Hand of Dorkness]

In summary, people don't usually make this stuff up and image sometimes matters. Both of these are true--but in both directions. Some people genuinely DO like the taste of ketchup on hot dogs (the tomatoes offer both a fruity high note along with meaty esters, even if it is terribly sweet). And some people prefer the image of a laid-back, unpretentious person to the image of the food savant.

Some people don't. I'll politely turn down lagers, for example, because I know that I've almost never enjoyed a lager; this means that I get teased sometimes as a beer snob, and I'm cool with that. But image matters, and in that respect, I choose to value the image less than I value the taste of beer. If you're willing to give up the image of a laid-back friendly person in order to avoid the taste of ketchup on hot dogs, that's a perfect legitimate choice :).

Daniel

[tdn]

Oh, brother.

Suppose someone just happens to like the taste of Maine lobster with ketchup on it?

What's that to you?

Mind your own business.
You might want to a) lighten up, and b) read for comprehension. You'll notice (actually you didn't) that I said my Maine lobster.

[silenus]

. If you're willing to give up the image of a laid-back friendly person in order to avoid the taste of ketchup on hot dogs, that's a perfect legitimate choice :).


It's an image I'll gladly sacrifice. Ketchup on hot dogs is like picking your nose: disgusting, and frowned on in Polite Society. Not something that is done in public, if at all.

Remember, just because you like it that way doesn't make it right, correct or proper. (Yes, this applies to me, too. It bloody well applies to everybody!)


eta: I'm hoping the reference to ketchup and seafood was a comment on cocktail sauce for shrimp, and not in any way advocating ketchup on Sole Meuniere.

[Shagnasty]

My upbringing says make guests feel comfortable and invite them to enjoy their meal. I see your side but that's given that your purpose for entertaining is different from mine.

I like Nathan's hot dogs with yellow mustard, though, so I'm a philistine. ;)

You always help guests to have the most comforatble time possible when they are at your house. That doesn't mean that you have to invite them back.

Let's say you invite an aquaintence and SO over to your house one night. They catch a glipse of the (turned off) TV and ask to watch NASCAR in the background. They start singing along to commercials when they come on. When you show them a prized piece of antique furniture, they suggest that it would look great with a coat of semi-gloss on it. You bought a very nice bottle of wine which everyone enjoys except the wife. She finds that it works much better on the rocks with a splash of orange juice. You made a nice dinner of prime rib, homemade mashed potatoes and carrots. Your guests love it after they chop everything to bits and mix it all together before they start eating.


They may have had a good time but they aren't coming back even though some people would defend each of these actions individually.

People always get so holier than thou in these threads which I think is ridiculous. Everyone has things they care about and would find it offputting if others just blatantly ignored common sense and taste when interacting on those. You don't shoot them but you can disregard them at least in that way.

[Shagnasty]

eta: I'm hoping the reference to ketchup and seafood was a comment on cocktail sauce for shrimp, and not in any way advocating ketchup on Sole Meuniere.

It was regarding fried seafood like popcorn shrimp and maybe things like catfish.

That lobster and catchup reference above had a good upchuck factor though.

[Left Hand of Dorkness]

Ketchup on hot dogs is like picking your nose: disgusting, and frowned on in Polite Society. Not something that is done in public, if at all.
If you're proposing it as an established rule of polite society, you're just wrong. It's no more incorrect than, say, drinking Bud Lite is incorrect. Indeed, ketchup is the second-most used condiment on hot dogs in the US (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hot_dog#Condiments), coming in behind only mustard. And many regional variations include ketchup (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hot_dog_variations).

I know you'd LIKE for it to be a sign of bad manners--many people want to universalize our own tastes--but it just ain't so, bud :).

Daniel

[Zambini57]

You might want to a) lighten up, and b) read for comprehension. You'll notice (actually you didn't) that I said my Maine lobster.

Well, obviously I didn't imagine the scenario where someone would run up to your plate of Maine lobster at your table and attempt to slather it with ketchup .

I myself would probably object if someone was trying to diddle with my plate, whether it be with ketchup, melted butter, lemon juice or even a second helping of Maine lobster.

My take on this is that when you said "my Maine lobster" you meant any serving of Maine lobster that you were aware of, not merely your own.

[tdn]

My take on this is that when you said "my Maine lobster" you meant any serving of Maine lobster that you were aware of, not merely your own.
Nope, when I said "my", what I meant was "my."

[Left Hand of Dorkness]

People always get so holier than thou in these threads which I think is ridiculous.
Heh--I think that sentence contains some serious dramatic irony.

Yes, if you value your image as a hot dog connoisseur to the same degree that you value your image as a collector of antiques, then sure, it'd be insulting for someone to ask for ketchup on your Chicago-style hot dog, just as surely as it'd be insulting for you to refuse ketchup on the Filipino-style dog they might try to serve you next week.

Which is to say, not very insulting at all to most people, but if you're really determined to show your high breeding through either insisting upon, or forbidding, ketchup, then here's your chance to do so.

Daniel

[tdn]

That lobster and catchup reference above had a good upchuck factor though.
I aims to please. ;)

I can't even imagine ketchup with popcorn shrimp or catfish. Fishsticks, possibly, but I'd go to great lengths to procure tartar sauce first.

[Zambini57]

[QUOTE=

They may have had a good time but they aren't coming back even though some people would defend each of these actions individually.

People always get so holier than thou in these threads which I think is ridiculous..[/QUOTE]

But, that's just what you're doing. getting all holier-than-thou.

If your guests ( who I imagine must be friends or business aqquaintances), enjoy chopping up your well-prepared meal, well, what's so wrong? You are their host, your duty is to provide for their enjoyment.

When you have guests/friends, your pride comes second. Their enjoyment comes first.

[Left Hand of Dorkness]

I can't even imagine ketchup with popcorn shrimp or catfish. Fishsticks, possibly, but I'd go to great lengths to procure tartar sauce first.
Absolutely agreed. Catfish is best served fried, with optional toppings of vinegar-based hot sauce or lemon juice or cocktail sauce (preferred in that order). Popcorn shrimp reverses the preferred order exactly. Ketchup is NOT a preferred option.

If my guests chose ketchup on them, I'd smile and provide it, and decide whether to invite them back based on their conversation, friendliness, and other factors having nothing to do with what condiments they chose.

Daniel

[Zambini57]

Nope, when I said "my", what I meant was "my."

Well, then it is kind of not relevant.

You may as well have been talking about a cheeseburger and fries basket.

[mswas]

Hotdogs are the appropriate venue for ketchup. Anyone that doesn't know this is an uncultured swine. ;)

[Left Hand of Dorkness]

Well, then it is kind of not relevant.
Geez, man, it was a joke! And a pretty funny one, IMO. Cut him some slack already!

Daniel

[Shagnasty]

I aims to please. ;)

I can't even imagine ketchup with popcorn shrimp or catfish. Fishsticks, possibly, but I'd go to great lengths to procure tartar sauce first.

Uh oh. Let's fight about this now. Shrimp go with ketchup based things. Cocktail sauce is ketchup based but I will use ketchup and lemon on popcorn shrimp in a pinch . You got the fish sticks right and fried catfish is tradtionally served with ketchup.

[Zambini57]

Uh oh. Let's fight about this now. Shrimp go with ketchup based things. Cocktail sauce is ketchup based but I will use ketchup and lemon on popcorn shrimp in a pinch . You got the fish sticks right and fried catfish is tradtionally served with ketchup.

And let's hope your guests appreciate your efforts.

Otherwise, they're out on their collective asses, right?

[tdn]

Uh oh. Let's fight about this now. Shrimp go with ketchup based things. Cocktail sauce is ketchup based but I will use ketchup and lemon on popcorn shrimp in a pinch . You got the fish sticks right and fried catfish is tradtionally served with ketchup.
I've got my duelling sword at the ready.

Things can be ketchup-based, but they are not ketchup. *shudder* But ketchup and lemon -- does that really taste OK? I'd hope that you'd at least have some horseradish on hand.

I don't know about catfish, because the only times I've had it, it was dressed up in fancy ways at fine dining places. The brute force of ketchup would have ruined the more nuanced flavors.

[tdn]

Geez, man, it was a joke! And a pretty funny one, IMO. Cut him some slack already!
Thank you! Yeah, pretty much why I suggested that he lighten up. Sounds like "Get offended" topped his to-do list today.

[silenus]

The brute force of ketchup would have ruined the more nuanced flavors.

In catfish? :confused:

[gigi]

I myself would probably object if someone was trying to diddle with my plate, whether it be with ketchup, melted butter, lemon juice or even a second helping of Maine lobster.
Yes, if there's any diddling to be done, that needs to happen in private.

[tdn]

In catfish? :confused:
Yep. Bold but nuanced.

And gigi, the thought of diddling a lobster is just... ouch.

[Left Hand of Dorkness]

I don't know about catfish, because the only times I've had it, it was dressed up in fancy ways at fine dining places. The brute force of ketchup would have ruined the more nuanced flavors.
Apparently Craig Claiborne (a famous Southern chef) thinks the two are inseparable. It sounds icky to me, for the reasons you mention: the best catfish I've ever had is best with peppered vinegar (e.g., Tobasco or Texas Pete). And I love me some deep-fried catfish. The best I've had was served to me by an African-American professional caterer in Durham, and IIRC, there wasn't ketchup available to eat with it. Ketchup, with its meaty esters, would make the sweet fish taste like a hot dog.

Which just goes to show that there are all sorts of acceptable cultural variations when it comes to condiments.

Daniel

[Zambini57]

In catfish? :confused:

Hey, he's a man of the world epicurean.

I think he wrote a treatise on fishsticks.

[Shagnasty]

Which just goes to show that there are all sorts of acceptable cultural variations when it comes to condiments.

Daniel

Thanks for that Dan. Call us when the shuttle lands.

[tdn]

Apparently Craig Claiborne (a famous Southern chef) thinks the two are inseparable.
Funnily enough, one of the places I had it was a New Orleans style restaurant. A little oversalted, but otherwise perfect as it was. The thought of ketchup didn't occur to me, and none was put on the table.

[toadbriar]

Forget ketchup, I don't see how anyone could choke down hotdogs that are steamed or boiled. I grew up eating them grilled to a healthy black (http://www.tedsonline.com), and I can't abide a shiny, pink, wet-looking dog. It might as well be a bologna sandwich.

Are those bright red dyed hot dogs actually good? I've been a little frightened of them and their bizarre color.

Chili is pretty much the best topping, but I will default to ketchup and spicy brown mustard for a regular ol' dog. It works better on the blackened dog; if I had to eat them pink and raw-but-warm, I'd want to dump a condiment cart on top of them too.

Ketchup on fried seafood!? I didn't realize people did this on purpose. I thought it was a matter of, the fish might touch the puddle of ketchup you've got for your fries, and you ate it anyhow. Would one still squeeze lemon onto it beforehand, I wonder?

[Left Hand of Dorkness]

Thanks for that Dan. Call us when the shuttle lands.
Oooh, burn.

Daniel

[D_Odds]

When you have guests/friends, your pride comes second. Their enjoyment comes first.You've obviously never been to a d_odds dinner party. My ego always comes first! :cool:

And ketchup on hot dogs is a sin. Says so in the Bible, Koran, and Torah. Homer mentioned it. It's been handed down in the Scandanavian Eddas. And 3 out of every 4 of the oral histories of the Native American tribes contains a similar reference (one can only assume the 4th tribe was vegetarian). One of the few things they all agree on. Put ketchup on your hot dog and go to Hell (Hel, Hades, etc.) No amount of Hail of Marys will save you.

It also has no place near any fish unless well mixed with a good horseradish and lots of lemon, and then only on shrimp. If you're going to fry your fish, malt vinegar is first, lemon is second, and tartar is a third (but not together).

I have spoken. Let it be typed, let it be done.

[silenus]

For he is truly the prophet. Let his word be enshrined into law everywhere, so the people may know Virtue.






No, seriously. I mean it.

[Zambini57]

You've obviously never been to a d_odds dinner party. My ego always comes first! :cool: .

Well, that's very fine, but if your guests don't enjoy themselves, how does your ego fare then?

[Left Hand of Dorkness]

Well, that's very fine, but if your guests don't enjoy themselves, how does your ego fare then?
Just awesome--that's the great thing about having a big ego!

(There's a great quote from the show Angel, an exchange between the hero and the villain, something like:

Hero: Those of you that don't care about other people will never understand those of us that do.
Villain: Yeah, but we don't care!)

Daniel

[Mister Rik]

Cocktail sauce is ketchup based
Rather, it's chili sauce, lemon juice, and horseradish.

[D_Odds]

What LHoD said.

You'd think the smiley and obviously over-the-top post would have given things away, but I knew someone would rise to the bait.

[Zambini57]

Just awesome--that's the great thing about having a big ego!

(There's a great quote from the show Angel, an exchange between the hero and the villain, something like:

Hero: Those of you that don't care about other people will never understand those of us that do.
Villain: Yeah, but we don't care!)

Daniel

Well, personally I would side with the sentiments of the hero. But, if you choose to side with those of the villain, that's your boggle.

And, we are getting off-topic.

[Left Hand of Dorkness]

Rather, it's chili sauce, lemon juice, and horseradish.
Really? My mom always taught me to make it up with just ketchup and grated horseradish. I could see how the other stuff would be tasty in it, but I tend to make it in very small quantities (I pretty much only eat it on the very rare fish stick or fake chicken nugget), and I use about equal quantities of ketchup and horseradish to get an extremely radishy mixture. The ketchup is there to slightly soften the horseradish.

Still, next time I'll try fun stuff like lemon juice, Worcestershire, etc. in it.

Daniel

[Left Hand of Dorkness]

Well, personally I would side with the sentiments of the hero. But, if you choose to side with those of the villain, that's your boggle.
On subjects this weighty, I sometimes do, because I am always serious and can never imagine anyone discussing these grave matters with even a hint of levity. Mwahahahaha! That's me siding with the villain with an evil cackle. Totally seriously.

Daniel

[Zambini57]

On subjects this weighty, I sometimes do, because I am always serious and can never imagine anyone discussing these grave matters with even a hint of levity. Mwahahahaha! That's me siding with the villain with an evil cackle. Totally seriously.

Daniel

So, you are against us then (the Ketchup-Doggers)?

Skybird, Skybird this is Dropkick with a Red-Alpha message in two parts....

[silenus]

Still, next time I'll try fun stuff like lemon juice, Worcestershire, etc. in it.


Around here, impromptu cocktail sauce starts with chili sauce. Add a bunch of horseradish, a squeeze of lemon or lime juice, a few dashes of pepper sauce and call it good.

[D_Odds]

Around here, impromptu cocktail sauce starts with chili sauce. Add a bunch of horseradish, a squeeze of lemon or lime juice, a few dashes of pepper sauce and call it good.
I had to look up my cocktail sauce recipe because I couldn't remember. My base is ketchup :(, but I'll look at the chili sauce ingredients to see what's in it (so I don't duplicate seasoning) and maybe try it.

Alternately, if I'm feeling really froggy, I can make my own ketchup so that it will be less sweet and have bolder flavors.

[Gary "Wombat" Robson]

In a pinch, I'll make a cocktail sauce out of ketchup and horseradish, but I usually cut it with a some lemon juice and just a dash of Worcestershire sauce. I'd rather start with tomato sauce than ketchup, though. That way I can cut down on the sugar.

I was about to pile-on about the ketchup as well but then your threw in the sweet relish and I realized that you are sensory disabled and more deserving of pitty rather than scorn. Those things obviously don't go together (sweet relish doesn't even go with itself) and yet you have no idea.Mmmm. Love those sweet pickles. Have you grokked yet that taste is subjective, by the way?

However, my wife and her family are major gourmet foods importers and distributors. I am a good cook and have a good feel for what goes with what and how. If you eat at our house and start pouring ketchup over fine, expensive ingrediants that are well thought out and prepared carefully, you probably aren't coming back.You see, I wasn't talking about putting ketchup on "fine, expensive ingredients." I was talking about (a) putting it on an Oscar Meyer-type hotdog, and (b) doing so only if there was no spicy brown mustard available. I'm sorry, Shagnasty, but if you're serving hotdogs at your house, and the only mustard you have available is that vile yellow stuff, you ain't a gourmet and I will feel no qualms about using ketchup.

Invite me over and make some proper sausages, and I promise to not only enjoy them without extra condiments, but bring along some proper beer to serve with them. I haven't brewed any lately, but we have a local brewer that makes some awesome porter. If you're serving German sausages, I'll make it a dopplebock.

The question is why you are putting up with shitty sausages.Because I just can't get through to the heathens at my son's high school to get them to serve a real sausage at school events. Maybe you could work on them for me.

[lowbrass]

Gotta agree with the OP. I had no idea there were hotdog "purists". It's a friggin' hot dog for crying out loud. So apropos of nothing, you know what's awesome? They have these hotdog carts in L.A. where they serve it with grilled onions, mayo, bacon, and jalapenos. That's good eatin'.

[Zambini57]

Gotta agree with the OP. I had no idea there were hotdog "purists". It's a friggin' hot dog for crying out loud. So apropos of nothing, you know what's awesome? They have these hotdog carts in L.A. where they serve it with grilled onions, mayo, bacon, and jalapenos. That's good eatin'.

Only if they're Chiltecpin jalapenos.

Otherwise, you must never be allowed to see the light of day again.

Or so might sayeth the snobbies.

[SpoilerVirgin]

There seems to be a little bit of Lunch-Identification (http://www.beyondveg.com/billings-t/lunch-att/lunch-attitudes-1a.shtml) going on in this thread. (Check out the chart at the bottom of the page.)

Personally I can't eat spicy, and I love sweet, so ketchup on a hotdog is just right for me, especially at the movies (it's dark, so you can't tell what you're eating anyway).

[MissGypsy]

I don't have a problem with people slapping grape jelly and caviar on their hotdog if they do it in their home. However, my wife and her family are major gourmet foods importers and distributors. I am a good cook and have a good feel for what goes with what and how. If you eat at our house and start pouring ketchup over fine, expensive ingrediants that are well thought out and prepared carefully, you probably aren't coming back. It isn't a capital crime but it does indicate personality, upbringing, and lifestyle issues that I don't find admirable.

No offense intended, but such a gourmet might know how to spell “ingredients” correctly. :p And a polite host wouldn’t take offense to the condiments that the guests choose for their hot dogs, nor would they brag about the cost of the meal. Honestly, you think ketchup as a condiment choice involves “lifestyle issues”, or “upbringing”? Sheesh.

It’s just food. Eat it, or don’t. But don’t insult your guests by demanding that they eat what your palate prefers. They’re not you, and they might have different tastes.

[pulykamell]

Gotta agree with the OP. I had no idea there were hotdog "purists". It's a friggin' hot dog for crying out loud.

Yes, it's a friggin' hot dog, but there's good hot dogs, and there's bad hot dogs. For me, eating food is a great source of enjoyment and entertainment. Some folks treat food merely as feeding the body machine. Others really enjoy and savor it. Food is how I discover cultures, meet people, explore new parts of town, etc. It all depends on what your relationship to food is.

For me, a good hot dog is usually all beef, always natural casing, needs to be cooked to the point it has a good "snap" from the casing, but not overcooked, is gently spiced but still mainly tastes of meat. I'm not going to complain if I'm served an Oscar Meyer--I don't like them, but I'll eat them. It's just that I will go out of my way for a hot dog I know fulfills all my requirements for a good hot dog. Frankly (heh, heh), I don't give a shit what anybody puts on their dogs or what they like. But I do have opinions on what belongs on a Chicago hot dog, and ketchup, factually, is absolutely verboten.

I will occasionally rib Chicagoans (espeically suburbanites) for putting ketchup on hot dogs, but it's all in jest. Nobody really gives a damn. It's just razzing. I get ribbed all the time for being a Cubs fan because I'm a born-and-raised South Sider. However, I will get pissed if an establishment here puts ketchup on a hot dog with everything, because, here, it has generally been understood "everything" does not include ketchup anymore than it includes chocolate syrup.

[Yumblie]

I can understand the sentiment where putting ketchup on a broiled fish filet or a grilled steak could been seen as an insult to your fine cooking, but this thread is about hot dogs. Now of course there are good hot dogs and bad hot dogs, but they're all pretty much the lower end of the gourmet food chain. Hot dogs are things you get at a gaudy diner or a street cart, not something at a fancy restaurant. Getting pretentious about hot dogs is like getting pretentious about potato chips or bubble gum. In the end, it's all junk food. Putting junk condiments on junk food is perfectly valid, whether you like it or not.

Now when I call hot dogs junk food I don't put them down. I love hot dogs, with or without ketchup. But I'm always baffled at the ire that putting ketchup on a hot dog brings. What about ketchup on a hamburger? On french fries? Why is it okay on these things, but not a hot dog?

By hot dogs I very specifically mean hot dogs. If we're talking italian sausage or schnitzel, that's a completely different story...

[pulykamell]

By hot dogs I very specifically mean hot dogs. If we're talking italian sausage [...] that's a completely different story...

Why? Italian sausage is just as much "junk" as a proper all-beef hot dog.

[Mister Rik]

Really? My mom always taught me to make it up with just ketchup and grated horseradish. I could see how the other stuff would be tasty in it, but I tend to make it in very small quantities (I pretty much only eat it on the very rare fish stick or fake chicken nugget), and I use about equal quantities of ketchup and horseradish to get an extremely radishy mixture. The ketchup is there to slightly soften the horseradish.

Still, next time I'll try fun stuff like lemon juice, Worcestershire, etc. in it.

Daniel
Ah, the Worcestershire! How could I forget that? I was going from memory - we made our own cocktail sauce at a restaurant where I cooked 16 or 17 years ago. We made our 1000 Island dressing with chili sauce as well.

[cochrane]

If ketchup on a hot dog is a sin, I'm driving the bus to Hell. As I said in the steak thread, I grew up on Heinz ketchup, and at 50, I'm no kid. I put ketchup, spicy mustard, and sweet relish on mine. Onions also, if I'm not too lazy to chop them. And oh, yeah. I microwave my hot dogs. Yeah, I'm not picky. The point is, I'm fine with what you eat and how you eat it (actually, I don't give much of a rat's keister) and I expect the same consideration.

[11811]

I don't have a problem with people slapping grape jelly and caviar on their hotdog if they do it in their home. However, my wife and her family are major gourmet foods importers and distributors. I am a good cook and have a good feel for what goes with what and how. If you eat at our house and start pouring ketchup over fine, expensive ingrediants that are well thought out and prepared carefully, you probably aren't coming back. It isn't a capital crime but it does indicate personality, upbringing, and lifestyle issues that I don't find admirable.

Presumably prospective dinner guests at Chez Shag know of your wife's and your gourmand background and can predict the type of meal and condiments to be found therein. You need only be as choosy about your guests as you are about your food to prevent the epicurean/hospitality crisis you're describing.

[Shagnasty]

You need only be as choosy about your guests as you are about your food to prevent the epicurean/hospitality crisis you're describing.

That is an excellent point. I don't have to worry about this type of crisis much in real life because because most guests are pre-screened and cordial invitations aren't handed out lightly. There is one big exception to this. My wife has a much older half sister that is very large and somehow turned retarded even though people swear their weren't any problems in early childhood development. We once went out to a very nice restaraunt in Cambridge with my wife's family inclucing the watermelon chest in question. Everyone chose among the ample varierty of fusion cuisine and SIL was clearly struggling with the choices among those offered. Every one seemed to have one or more prohibitive flaws. Finally, she spied pizza on the menu and all was well. The lovely dishes arrived and we all marveled over them, that is, until SIL got her pizza. "What is this?" she asked the waiter and he carefully explained the beautiful meddley that made up her dish. "THIS ISN"T PIZZA" she exclaimed and sent it back. Alas, there were no standard menu options left for her and her son. She was forced to order plain pasta with butter on it as her meal. Poor dear. She isn't allowed to go to fancy restaurants with us anyone although I haven't found a good way to keep her away from my house when she is in town. Other than that, pre-screening does take care of the problem and only a few would be so bold and crass anyway.

I swear, some people wouldn't know a nine piece place setting if you hit them over the head with a water goblet.

[Gary "Wombat" Robson]

Presumably prospective dinner guests at Chez Shag know of your wife's and your gourmand background and can predict the type of meal and condiments to be found therein.Unless I missed something somewhere, Shagnasty never claimed to be a gourmand, and I don't get the impression that he is. He said he was a gourmet. Those two words mean *very* different things.

(sorry - mixing those up is a pet peeve of mine)

[Shagnasty]

Unless I missed something somewhere, Shagnasty never claimed to be a gourmand, and I don't get the impression that he is. He said he was a gourmet. Those two words mean *very* different things.

(sorry - mixing those up is a pet peeve of mine)

No, I am not a gourmand. I don't even eat that much. I am not really a complete gourmet either. I was raised a poor Southern child in an area where you can get great Southern food and barbecue but not much outside that. The fussiness started when I worked at a gorgeous, elegant mansion/small hotel in New Orleans and a manager took me under his wing so to speak and showed me how things worked. He was like Niles Crane except bigger and much more gay plus with a bad temper. He had names for people that entered and sullied the atmosphere with poor manners and heathen ways and I don't think I can repeat any of them here. That really rubbed off on me as I learned how to do various place settings and fancy napkin folds while learning the art of pleasing customers while stilll keeping them constrained to the acceptable behavior of the establishment. Ketchup wasn't allowed at all for any night functions for obvious reasons although there were a delightful assortment of New Orleans style condiments.

My wife is in the fancy foods business as I noted so some of this stuff rubs off by osmosis. She honestly thinks that most everybody lives that way when it comes to food and the depth of that delusion sometimes makes me forget as well. In any case, flaunting civility may make someone feel like a rebel or even superior but, sadly, it is the result of ignorance not just in terms of a rote command of the rules of polite society but also a lack of innate humbleness and self-respect. Pride in uncouth behavior is an attack on not only society but also oneself.
I am ashamed to say I was once that way too and I couldn't see it within myself just like I know many others can't.

Ketchup on a hotdog may be marginal but it is a slippery slope. The next thing you know, you are out to eat with a prospective employer and the habit of making ungodly flavor pairings can't be constrained and your delightful lunch becomes a chemistry set right before your companion's eyes. Rest assured that nothing will be said but it can't help but be noted.

The International Fancy Food show starts in NYC this weekend if anyone is interested.

[Hellestal]

It isn't a capital crime but it does indicate personality, upbringing, and lifestyle issues that I don't find admirable.It indicates nothing of the sort. You're assuming negative attributes about personality, upbringing, and lifestyle because it pleases you to do so.

And you start so well! Your screening process before inviting guests over for a nice dinner makes perfect sense. You know Aunt Selma from the Simpson's who had the bottle rocket go up her nose, so everything tastes like cardboard? That's kinda like how I am, except I come by it naturally, having not had the need for a small firework to trigger the insensitivity of my nose and tongue. I have, in fact, the most unsophisticated palate of anyone I know, and to serve me expensive foods would be pointless. Should you ever have the misfortune of inviting someone like me over for dinner (maybe for business, since it obviously wouldn't be a social call), a "shitty sausage" microwaved and served with plenty of ketchup would be perfectly sufficient. Don't break out the good stuff, because it would waste both your time and mine.

My tongue doesn't have any IQ to begin with, so you needn't worry about the ketchup "stealing" it.

So why your need to feel so "civilized"? You arrogantly assume that your ways are somehow more sophisticated and polite and respectable. "Pride in uncouth behavior is an attack on not only society but also oneself." Please. You get pitted for this nonsense because your statements are ridiculously conceited and absurd. Your own preferences are not some objective standard suitable for judging all human interaction. It's completely understandable that you wouldn't want to invite me over. I wouldn't want to invite you over, either, so that evens out nicely. But when you arrogate unto yourself a notion of superiority, you'd better expect that people will call you out.

And you don't even stop there. The "potential employer" gambit always follows closely behind the hypothetical "dinner party" in these threads, but the arguments never make any sense. If any potential employer of mine is considering whether or not to hire me, an astonishingly wonderful, brilliant, and productive worker (or so I like to delude myself), and they decide against it because my tastebuds don't function as well as theirs, then that employer is stupid. My own job has nothing to do with food, no wining and dining customers for me, and any employer who can't help but judge based on that criterion is an incompetent and should be replaced by someone capable of determining real performance in their applicants.

Feel free to "note" what I eat. Indifferent as I am to food, I won't pay the slightest attention to the chemistry on your plate, so it'll be a one-way judgment. Feel free, too, to make negative judgments about my "upbringing" based on no substantive grounds. You're free to make hasty conclusions about others with no real information.

But it might behoove you to understand the reason that people like me are so totally indifferent to your precious dining customs. Why in the world would I bother with the nine piece place setting when the end result is, for me, nothing more than the hassle of recharging my body yet again? It's not healthy, I know, but I miss a lot of meals because it doesn't occur to me that I should eat. I'm too involved doing more important things.

I'm not knocking foodies here, either. They fascinate me. One of my favorite Cafe Society threads is "Ordering a Steak Well Done: Unsophisticated?" (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=341096) The patient explanations of the people in that thread who loved food were truly astonishing. It's like they were building a complex chemistry problem. I never knew that medium-rare was the best choice to preserve the characteristics of quality cuts of steak, just as I never knew that ketchup drowned out other tastes until I read Cecil's column about hot-dogs. How could I have known? I'm not built that way.

The people in that steak thread have an attitude that you lack. They eat for sheer joy, and most all of them didn't care how others ordered their steaks. Well-done? No problem! To each their own. They just wanted the well-done people to understand the mechanics of cooking a piece of meat for so long. They accomplished their job brilliantly. It didn't change how I order my steak, but it did give me a better understanding of their perspective of the world.

Your failure to emulate their fine example says nothing about the "manners" or "civility" of your targets. It says everything about you.

Now if you'll excuse me, I forgot to eat breakfast this morning, so now I'm gonna microwave some fishsticks. I eat them plain, by the way. I don't even bother with ketchup.

[Mister Rik]

And you don't even stop there. The "potential employer" gambit always follows closely behind the hypothetical "dinner party" in these threads, but the arguments never make any sense. If any potential employer of mine is considering whether or not to hire me, an astonishingly wonderful, brilliant, and productive worker (or so I like to delude myself), and they decide against it because my tastebuds don't function as well as theirs, then that employer is stupid. My own job has nothing to do with food, no wining and dining customers for me, and any employer who can't help but judge based on that criterion is an incompetent and should be replaced by someone capable of determining real performance in their applicants.

I read an anecdote once about Henry Ford and job applicants. As the story goes, Henry would take the candidates out to lunch or dinner, and he would observe how they ate their meals. If they salted & peppered their food before tasting it, he wouldn't hire them. Why? Because they had demonstrated that they start out assuming the worst. They were a) "fixing" the food without first tasting it and determining whether or not it indeed needed "fixing", and b) they were "fixing" it their way without regard to whether or not it was the appropriate "fix". To Henry, this was an indication that the candidate was likely to do the same on the job.

I've seen the same thing myself, with my father. My mom, when I was a kid, was a very unimaginative cook. Most of her dishes were extremely bland. Because of that, my dad added lots of pepper at the table, not because he loved the taste of pepper so much, but simply to add some flavor to the food. And that was fine, at home. But he would do the same thing in restaurants, and in other people's homes. Once I became a professional cook, I came to understand why this would be insulting. Here I've taken the time and made the effort to prepare a flavorful meal, and this guy stomps on my hard work by immediately drowning out the flavor I worked to create, without bothering to sample it first. Why did he do it? Habit, pure and simple. He's grown accustomed to flavorless food and so he automatically assumes that he needs to "fix" everything before it goes into his mouth.

The most dramatic example I've seen of this kind of thing was when I was cooking at the local men's homeless shelter. I'd cooked up a batch of biscuits and gravy, and I accidentally went a little heavy on the pepper when I made the gravy but there wasn't time to fix it. When I was dishing it up to the homeless guys, I warned each of them that there was more pepper than usual in the gravy, so they should taste it before they add more. But most of them were so accustomed to bland food from shelters and soup kitchens that they immediately smothered it with even more pepper, ignoring my advice. Most of them wished they had listened!

Is there indeed some carryover into the workplace? I believe there is. My dad did great during most of his working life, but his entire career was spent working for the government in one way or another. He did four years in the US Marines, and from there he went almost directly to working for the Washington State Patrol, where he stayed for the next 36 years. Now that he's retired, he works part time in the private sector for a corporate chain store. From the stories he's told about that job, he sure seems to already know better ways to do just about everything, despite his short time on the job. Doesn't go over very well ;)

[Gary "Wombat" Robson]

Well stated, Kendall Jackson. My mother liked her steaks well done. Really well done. It really pissed off my father when waiters would give her grief about it. We walked out of restaurants twice because the cook refused to "ruin" a perfectly good steak.

If it's the way she wants to eat it, then you're not ruining it. You're providing what your customer wants, and in both of those cases, getting paid well for it.

[silenus]

OTOH, if I was running the restaurant, I'd tell your folks that we don't serve quality meat "well-done" and suggest that the Denny's down the street might be able to accomodate them. I'd take the loss of a customer or two rather than ruin a good steak.

Calvin Trillan tells the story of how Zero Mostel once threw a friend of his out of a noted deli in New York City, publically, because the fellow ordered a slice of Angel-Food cake and a glass of milk. I feel Zero's pain. The customer isn't always right.

[Shagnasty]

OTOH, if I was running the restaurant, I'd tell your folks that we don't serve quality meat "well-done" and suggest that the Denny's down the street might be able to accomodate them. I'd take the loss of a customer or two rather than ruin a good steak.

Calvin Trillan tells the story of how Zero Mostel once threw a friend of his out of a noted deli in New York City, publically, because the fellow ordered a slice of Angel-Food cake and a glass of milk. I feel Zero's pain. The customer isn't always right.

That is correct. There is a huge misconception around that businesses exist to please everyone no matter what they demand and that was probably inspired by the worst catchphrase ever. Businesses exist to make money first and foremost, to serve the overall business interest second, and to please the owner and staff third.

Trying to please every customer is a common and admirable way to accomplish those goals but variations on it exist to fit the needs of the business. Some exclusive nightclubs won't even let most potential customers in because that is their business model. Likewise, Southwest Airlines will not tolerate abuse of staff by customers because it knows that keeping its staff happy is more important than losing a few boorish customers which tend to make other passengers uncomfortable anyway.

A restaurant that prides itself on the quality of its meat may see a customer that wants a steak cooked well-done the same way an artist views a potential customer that wants to commision a painting of dogs playing poker. It isn't appropriate and it is contrary to the business model. Customers that want a bottle of Heinz to put on their steak or jambalaya really shouldn't be in a top restaurant in New York, New Orleans, San Francisco, or Chicago unless they are willing to adapt and learn. These places don't want to encourage them as repeat customers anyway because it is contrary to business goals.

[HazelNutCoffee]

Out of curiosity, what ARE you supposed to order with angel-food cake?

[silenus]

Angel-food cake with white milk is fine, it was where he ordered it that drove Mostel nuts. Trillin relates the story in either American Fried or Alice, Let's Eat. I'll try to find the exact quote and location.

eta: Found it. It's in American Fried and was at Russ & Daughters appetizer store on Houston St.

[Gary "Wombat" Robson]

OTOH, if I was running the restaurant, I'd tell your folks that we don't serve quality meat "well-done" and suggest that the Denny's down the street might be able to accomodate them. I'd take the loss of a customer or two rather than ruin a good steak.You (and Shagnasty) simply don't get it. You'd really turn away a full table of patrons and lose the income from a half-dozen dinners (and alienate them forever), simply because you're too much of a snob to cook a steak the way one of the diners wants it? You think the other five people want Denny's food because one of them likes well-done steak?

If a cook or manager working for me pulled a snotty attitude like that, he'd be fired on the spot.

I own a bookstore. How long do you think I'd be in business if I refused to sell romance novels or westerns or anything that wasn't (raise nose 2" here) literature? How long would the bar down the street survive if it didn't have its two taps of (shudder) Bud and Bud Lite along with the 20 taps of good craft-brewed beers?

People eat in groups, and failing to serve one of them--or actually insulting them--will piss off the whole group. And what does it gain you? It puts another notch in your snotty "I know good food better than you do" stick. Why you would do this is completely beyond my comprehension.

(Shagnasty, your artist example doesn't fit. We're talking about leaving the steak on for another five minutes, which nobody else will notice, not spending weeks on a commission that will hang with your name on it somewhere.

[silenus]

You (and Shagnasty) simply don't get it. You'd really turn away a full table of patrons and lose the income from a half-dozen dinners (and alienate them forever), simply because you're too much of a snob to cook a steak the way one of the diners wants it? You think the other five people want Denny's food because one of them likes well-done steak?

Actually, I'd bet that three of the other five people would be thinking "Thank Og, we don't have to put up with that leather that Phil always orders, and then be forced to watch him drown it in ketchup. I think I'll tell my friends about this place. Maybe schedule that birthday dinner for Uncle Lou here......"

[Shagnasty]

Actually, I'd bet that three of the other five people would be thinking "Thank Og, we don't have to put up with that leather that Phil always orders, and then be forced to watch him drown it in ketchup. I think I'll tell my friends about this place. Maybe schedule that birthday dinner for Uncle Lou here......"

That sounds like a great niche business with an in-joke attached. Just bring in your hopeless friends/family/coworkers and let the place do the condescension and correction for you. There could even be a counselling room and mini finishing school in the back.

[Shagnasty]

Angel-food cake with white milk is fine, it was where he ordered it that drove Mostel nuts. Trillin relates the story in either American Fried or Alice, Let's Eat. I'll try to find the exact quote and location.

eta: Found it. It's in American Fried and was at Russ & Daughters appetizer store on Houston St.

Silenus, I don't know if you remember but I outlined a very similar real-life scenario here a couple of years ago and it caused a huge blowup that went on for hundreds of posts. It was brother against brother. There are three things you should never bring up with polite company: politics, religion, and issues surrounding milk orders.

[silenus]

There are three things you should never bring up with polite company: politics, religion, and issues surrounding milk orders.

So next time I dine with the Boss, stick to talking about circumcision, declawing cats and the Yankees. Got it.

Oh, wait. You said no religion. So circumcision, declawing cats and immigration.


As a correction to my story above, upon rereading the passage, it wasn't Russ & Daughters but an un-named kosher dairy on upper Broadway where the sin was committed. Mostel likened it to alking into Russ & Daughters (http://www.russanddaughters.com/) and asking them to open a can of tuna for you.

[swampbear]

I don't understand the depth of feeling that so many people have about what condiments other people put on their hotdogs. In the currently-running ketchup on steak thread, mention was swiftly made of those heathens that put ketchup on hotdogs.

Okay, I'll admit this. Ketchup is used to add flavor to bland foods. I would never put ketchup on a bratwurst, a kielbasa, or a banger. But your basic Oscar Meyer hotdog is pretty darned tasteless. Given my druthers, I'd barbecue it and add some good spicy brown mustard and sweet pickle relish. Or maybe just a good barbecue sauce. At many little hotdog stands, though, the only "mustard" they have is that grotesque yellow stuff, which I simply won't eat. Thus, the hotdog gets ketchup.

But that's not my point, or my question. My question is, WHY does it make the slightest bit of difference how someone else prepares their food? Personally, it wouldn't bother me a bit it you cut open your hotdog, stuffed it with blackberries, breaded it, wrapped it in rhubarb, deep-fried it, and served it on a Krispy Kreme doughnut with a dollop of cream cheese and a sprinkling of chopped walnuts. It's your hotdog.

So, if you're one of the card-carrying, banner-bearing, anti-ketchupists, please explain why it matters to you what's on someone else's wiener*?

*Yes, Swampbear, that straight line is there just for you. Go for it.
As long as I'm on ACBG's "wiener" that's all that matters. :D This children is why we do vanity searches.

Ok, as to hotdogs, ketchup is an abomination unto hotdogs. Do we understand that? We do? Good!*













































*Of course this is from somebody who eats hotdogs from a local hotdog place that are, to be *heh* frank quite scary things. They are chili/cheese/onion/mustard/ogonlyknowswhatkindofmeat dogs. The dang things are soooooo good! However, they must never ever be eaten indoors. :eek:

[kittenblue]

I don't have a problem with people slapping grape jelly and caviar on their hotdog if they do it in their home. However, my wife and her family are major gourmet foods importers and distributors. I am a good cook and have a good feel for what goes with what and how. If you eat at our house and start pouring ketchup over fine, expensive ingrediants that are well thought out and prepared carefully, you probably aren't coming back. It isn't a capital crime but it does indicate personality, upbringing, and lifestyle issues that I don't find admirable..

Why would there even be ketchup in your house for someone to use?

[Shagnasty]

Why would there even be ketchup in your house for someone to use?

That is an excellent question but I have two small children.

Some people miss the point of all this which is partially my fault by the way it is laid out. It is about being open to new things and being an appreciative guest as well as being open to other cultures. Those cultures may be domestic as well as foreign. It isn't about formality either. It is just as offensive to try to eat crawfish with a knife and fork in Breaux Bridge, LA as it is to eat a steak with your hands in Chicago. I am referring to the people that sneer at new things and are determined to do things the same way they always have regardless of the setting. Those are the people I don't want to go out to eat with and I don't want them in my house or my life and lots of them have appeared throughout the years.

People tend to respond badly to negative stories. Let me give you a positive story. The coworker I have always been closest with is a young black female that works remotely. Her husband is a pro baseball player and she travels and works wherever she is. Until last week, I had only met her once in person a couple of years ago. She looks similar to Hallie Barry and has a new daughter a month younger than mine. She had to travel to our office for training last week and I got the idea to invite her to my house (none of my coworkers have ever been to my house before). Her mother and baby daughter also travelled with her and I wanted our baby daughters to play together.

When they all arrived at my house, I met her mother who instantly struck me as a very humble person of creole ancestry that happened to be correct. As the kids played, I talked to her mother and found out that she had literally never been out of a small area near the Louisiana/Texas border. I got her some white wine and she loved it enough to drink more than half the bottle. I offered her some fresh mozzarella, tomato, and basil salad and she loved it as well and asked questions. We decided to have an impromptu cheese tasting because she had never tried any of it. By that time, the white wine was gone so I took her to the wine cellar and let her pick out a bottle of red suitable for the cheeses. She ate and talked and loved it all. My coworker told me later that she said it was one of the greatest experiences of her life.

All of that came from allowing someone to show her something new. We enjoyed it greatly and so did they. Compare that to the guest that turns their nose up at the slightest hint of something foreign and you can see where the problem comes in. This doesn't apply just to food but also to music, art, NASCAR, and pro wrestling. It is a crass mentality and the job of the guest is to allow themselves to be entertained and experience what other people enjoy as much as it is for the host to cater to the guest.

[Hellestal]

Actually, I'd bet that three of the other five people would be thinking "Thank Og, we don't have to put up with that leather that Phil always orders, and then be forced to watch him drown it in ketchup. I think I'll tell my friends about this place. Maybe schedule that birthday dinner for Uncle Lou here......"Right. Sure. Of course. Three of five people, seated comfortably at a fine restaurant, sipping their favorite red, chatting amiably with their buddy Phil, maybe razzing him lightly because of his appalling sense of taste. And what's this? Order time comes, and Phil's philistine preference for burnt steak causes the waiter to ask the whole party to leave immediately. What an enchanting experience! Can't wait to come back!

Are you even paying attention to what you're writing?

Sure, well-done destroys the finer qualities of the meat, and ketchup smothers other flavors, but that's the way Phil likes it. If his three comrades in sustenance feel that they have to "put up" with food that they're not even eating, if they are somehow being "forced" to watch him eat ketchup (aaaaAAaaaaaAAAA!!!), then their entire existence is sunken in meaningless histrionic fakery. They are deliberately choosing to be offended by the subjective experiences of another human being. What utterly useless people. They aren't even Phil's friends. They probably just hang out with him because he's got access to box seats for the Sunday game.

I don't deny that the restaurant's got the right to serve things how it wants. Ain't no cook alive has to cater to petulant customers' whims. If the restaurant wants to kick those culinary hobos out on their ass, it's their choice, their right. I'd do it myself. That is, if I owned a nice restaurant and thought I could make more money from the snoot crowd that way. A good business model is a good business model, even if it seems counter-intuitive to me.

On preview, I notice that Shagnasty has a great, positive story. And I support that. What I dislike here is the conceited undertone to it, the seemingly automatic, summary assumption that people who don't have a wonderful time at dinner are somehow closed off to new cultures, or unwilling to try new things, or unappreciative of the delicacy of different situations. Ketchup is a "slippery slope", and bizarre choices for bodily energy "can't help but be noted".

For all I know, Shagnasty was completely correct in his evaluation of the "lots" of people who haven't measured up to his standards over the years. But you wouldn't know that from the attitude portrayed in this thread, where the subjective preferences of others, people who might've spent decades experimenting with different foods only to give up and decide that ketchup really is best for them, are treated with scorn and derision. He's described the behaviors of himself and his compatriots as "civility", with the natural implication that those who act differently from his high standards are steeped in coarseness and low vulgarity.

And that passive aggression does not stand, man.

I get that ketchup on hot dogs blots out everything else so that all that's perceptible to the tongue is the sweetness. Just the way I like it, because sweetness is about all I really got goin' for me in the taste department. But if y'all feel compelled to keep talking even after you've discussed the chemistry of ketchup, then qualify your statements. It does not do to shoot out wild implications that everyone who acts oddly when ingesting is an unexperimental, impolite, vulgar contrarian. Some of them surely do, but surely there are exceptions. Acknowledge those exceptions.

And frankly, claiming that one's own behavior is the standard for civility is just lame.

[Walloon]

IIRC the average weiner is made of the 'ass parts of the animal'. The floor sweepings. And you're worried about what condiments are on it?Wrong! :mad:

No national brand of hot dog in the U.S. contains meat byproducts.

Under U.S. Department of Agriculture regulations, "meat" is defined as skeletal muscle. Anything else is a meat byproduct. Any hot dog that contains a meat byproduct must change its label name from "hot dogs" (or "frankfurters" or whatever) to "hot dogs with byproducts," or "hot dogs with variety meats" next to the name. The ingredients list must also itemize the byproducts (e.g., heart, tongue).

From the U.S. Code of Federal Regulations (http://www.cfsan.fda.gov/~lrd/9CF319.html):(a) Frankfurter, frank, furter, hot-dog, wiener, vienna, bologna, garlic bologna, knockwurst and similar cooked sausages are comminuted, semisolid sausages prepared from one or more kinds of raw skeletal muscle meat or raw skeletal muscle meat and raw or cooked poultry meat, and seasoned and cured, using one or more of the curing agents . . . . The finished products shall not contain more than 30 percent fat. . . .

(b) Frankfurter, frank, furter, hot-dog, wiener, vienna, bologna, garlic bologna, knockwurst and similar cooked sausages that are labeled with the phrase "with byproducts" or "with variety meats" in the product name are comminuted, semisolid sausages consisting of not less than 15 percent of one or more kinds of raw skeletal muscle meat with raw meat byproducts, or not less than 15 percent of one or more kinds of raw skeletal muscle meat with raw meat byproducts and raw or cooked poultry products; and seasoned and cured, using one or more of the curing ingredients . . . . Meat byproducts used in the sausage shall be designated individually in the ingredient statement on the label for such sausage . . . . These sausage products may contain poultry products . . . . Such poultry products shall not contain kidneys or sex glands.

A cooked sausage as defined in paragraph (b) of this section shall be labeled by its generic name, e.g., frankfurter, frank, furter, hotdog, wiener, vienna, bologna, garlic bologna, or knockwurst, in conjunction with the phrase "with byproducts'' or "with variety meats'' with such supplemental phrase shown in a prominent manner directly contiguous to the generic name and in the same color on an identical background.

[Walloon]

flaunting civility may make someone feel like a rebelFlouting?

[Walloon]

Calvin Trillan tells the story of how Zero Mostel once threw a friend of his out of a noted deli in New York City, publically, because the fellow ordered a slice of Angel-Food cake and a glass of milk. I feel Zero's pain. The customer isn't always right.What was the problem with angel food cake and some milk?

[Rilchiam]

That is an excellent point. I don't have to worry about this type of crisis much in real life because because most guests are pre-screened and cordial invitations aren't handed out lightly. There is one big exception to this. My wife has a much older half sister that is very large and somehow turned retarded even though people swear their weren't any problems in early childhood development. We once went out to a very nice restaraunt in Cambridge with my wife's family inclucing the watermelon chest in question. Everyone chose among the ample varierty of fusion cuisine and SIL was clearly struggling with the choices among those offered. Every one seemed to have one or more prohibitive flaws. Finally, she spied pizza on the menu and all was well. The lovely dishes arrived and we all marveled over them, that is, until SIL got her pizza. "What is this?" she asked the waiter and he carefully explained the beautiful meddley that made up her dish. "THIS ISN"T PIZZA" she exclaimed and sent it back. Alas, there were no standard menu options left for her and her son. She was forced to order plain pasta with butter on it as her meal. Poor dear. She isn't allowed to go to fancy restaurants with us anyone although I haven't found a good way to keep her away from my house when she is in town. Other than that, pre-screening does take care of the problem and only a few would be so bold and crass anyway.

I swear, some people wouldn't know a nine piece place setting if you hit them over the head with a water goblet.

This reminds me of an anecdote once related by Charles Schulz. You know, the guy who drew Peanuts, the comic strip?

Originally posted by Charles M. Schulz
In 1978, I was informed by Monsieur Robert LePalme of the International Pavilion of Humor of Montreal, Canada, that I had been selected as International Cartoonist of the Year. He invited me to attend the judging of their yearly cartoon contest, and to be the honorary chairman of the judging committee. On the first evening, my wife, Jeannie, Lee Mendelson, our TV producer, and I were guests at what was to us a very nice affair. As vichyssoise was being served, Lee spoke loudly to me across the table: "Eat your soup, Sparky, before it gets cold."...

...The dinner, of course, was excellent, and the wines were as special as LePalme hoped they would be, although I certainly couldn't tell, being as ignorant of wine as it is possible to be. Along about eleven o'clock, I noticed that I had accumulated a row of glasses in front of me that was quite impressive: a water glass, two red wines (untouched), two white wines (only slightly touched), and a Seven-Up. LePalme looked at this row of glasses, leaned over to me, and asked, "May I say something to you?"

"Yes, Robert. What is it?"

"I do not wish to offend."

"That's all right, a little offending never hurt anybody."

"You," he said, "are the most simple man I have ever met."

Simple, perhaps. But that simple man was also kind, gentle, a good Christian, and a talented, insightful artist who managed to touch the hearts of millions around the world, despite his ignorance of wine. I don't think he ever called anyone a watermelon chest, either, whether to their face or behind their back.

[Gary "Wombat" Robson]

Actually, I'd bet that three of the other five people would be thinking "Thank Og, we don't have to put up with that leather that Phil always orders, and then be forced to watch him drown it in ketchup. I think I'll tell my friends about this place. Maybe schedule that birthday dinner for Uncle Lou here......"I've reread this twice trying to figure out whether it's a whoosh. Well, just in case it isn't...

Although this is a ketchup thread, the specific message you're responding to was triggered by me posting about a snotty cook that wouldn't prepare my mother's steak the way she wanted it (very well done). No ketchup was involved, not that it matters.

Are you really saying that I should have *appreciated* someone insulting my mother because I wouldn't have to "put up with" her eating a well done steak? Two questions for you:

(a) Why would I care how someone else's steak is cooked? My wife likes hers rare. My son likes his medium. I like mine medium rare. My dad liked his medium well. My mother liked hers well done. Somehow we all managed to eat together without gagging at each other's plates. I don't even *notice* how other people cook their steaks. Why is it a big deal to you?

(b) Why would I schedule Uncle Lou's birthday dinner someplace where the cook won't prepare food the way we order it?

[Mesquite-oh]

Some people feel that the ketchup on hotdog thing is a challenge to their deeply held cultural beliefs that contribute to the sense of their identity.

I am an American of Mexican descent. I love Mexican food. It is a part of me. When I see a Taco Bell commercial, I become angry. Everytime I see someone eating Taco Bell, or especially, hold on....I am trying to keep it together....see them giving it to LITTLE CHILDREN, who can't protect themselves, I feel like slapping it out of their little hands before it gets to their mouths. I would then call Child Protective in an effort to save them.

[Walloon]

Did you know that there are several Taco Bell restaurants in Mexico City and that they are quite popular, despite the fact that taco vendors can be found on almost every street corner?

[Rilchiam]

Popular with tourists, or locals?

[Mister Rik]

(a) Why would I care how someone else's steak is cooked?
Well, if you have to wait an inordinate amount of time for your own meal because somebody else ordered theirs burnt :D

Seriously, though, I used to think about that when I was a cook at a steakhouse. We'd get a group of people for lunch on a weekday, probably with a limited amount of time for lunch. Six of them will order the soup and sandwich special, and the seventh will order a well done steak. Now the six people who could have had their meals in less than ten minutes instead get to wait twenty, and probably have to wolf their food so they're not late getting back to work. And they'll blame the kitchen for being slow, instead of their friend for ordering something that takes a long time to cook.

I've also had customers who show up in the middle of the busiest part of the day, order a well done steak, and then sit and complain about "What's taking so long?"

[Walloon]

The Taco Bell restaurants are popular with locals! They consider them cleaner than the street corner taco vendors.

[Left Hand of Dorkness]

Nothin wrong with Taco Smell. Their burritos are like eating a tube of bean-flavored toothpaste. Mmm mmm good!

Daniel

[August West]

I'll politely turn down lagers, for example, because I know that I've almost never enjoyed a lager; this means that I get teased sometimes as a beer snob, and I'm cool with that.



That's a pretty sweeping statement. You've never enjoyed an Oktoberfest? a dunkel? A doppelbock? Helles, perhaps?

[Gary "Wombat" Robson]

That's a pretty sweeping statement. You've never enjoyed an Oktoberfest? a dunkel? A doppelbock? Helles, perhaps?Unfortunately, a lot of people hear "lager" and think "Coors." They don't realize that there's at least as much variation in flavor among lagers as there is among wines. Pilsner Urquell is very different from a Märzen or a Schwarzbier.

I can say "generally I prefer ales to lagers," because I'm a big fan of porters, Scottish ales and dry stouts. There are still a lot of lagers that I'll drink, and quite a few that I really enjoy.