Would *you* have spared Shambo?

[Small British Shop Owner]

So, they've killed Shambo, a sacred bull

See: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/6918618.stm

Now, I don't care about killing animals, and I find religious people to be lunatic at worst, amusing curiosities at best, but there is no way that I would have sanctioned Sambo's death (he was killed because he tested positive for TB). I wouldn't have sanctioned his death because the monks were prepared to keep in isolation, and no matter what the bureaucratic rules might say some common sense has to come into play. A lot of people wanted this bull to live. He was not the same as an ordinary bull. Needless suffeering has been caused simply to placate Welsh farmers.

If my opinion of the Welsh and especially their regional assembly could be any lower, then this incident would have lowered it.

So what do you think? Would *you* have spared Shambo?

[Capt. Ridley's Shooting Party]

No. The bull was infected. The last thing we needed was another outbreak of some cattle disease, no matter what claims the group were making with respect to isolation.

The slaughter wasn't without precedent, neither - pet sheep were slaughtered during the foot and mouth outbreak, and rightfully so, IMO.

[Small British Shop Owner]

No. The bull was infected. The last thing we needed was another outbreak of some cattle disease, no matter what claims the group were making with respect to isolation.

The slaughter wasn't without precedent, neither - pet sheep were slaughtered during the foot and mouth outbreak, and rightfully so, IMO.

If the bull was isolated then the risk of spreading disease would be minimal. And there's plenty of slaughter going on due to TB, but by and large the farmers don't mind so long as they get compensation - this bull was very different.

(As an aside, I understand that TB is spread by badgers but this fact is covered up for some reason).

[Captain Amazing]

The bull was only different in that his owners didn't want him slaughtered, but in the case of livestock with communicable diseases that can cause outbreaks, the owners aren't usually given a choice.

[Small British Shop Owner]

The bull was only different in that his owners didn't want him slaughtered, but in the case of livestock with communicable diseases that can cause outbreaks, the owners aren't usually given a choice.

They had much greater feelings about him being slaughtered than most owners. And they were prepared to take the necessary steps to stop any other animals catching the disease.

[chowder]

Seeing as how you consider religious people to be lunatic, and I agree with you to some extent on this, I can't understand why the killing of a "sacred" bull can be so upsetting to you.

The animal had a disease

How on earth can a frigging bull be sacred anyway.

Badgers are protected species I understand

[Small British Shop Owner]

Seeing as how you consider religious people to be lunatic, and I agree with you to some extent on this, I can't understand why the killing of a "sacred" bull can be so upsetting to you.

The animal had a disease

How on earth can a frigging bull be sacred anyway.

Badgers are protected species I understand

It's not the killing of the bull that upsets me (and I'm not exactly "upset" at all), it's the disregard for these peoples feelings when allowing the bull to live would have caused no harm at all.

[chowder]

Hang on a second, you said religious people are lunatics so why does it bother you.

The bull if allowed to live could have spread TB

My last say in this thread

[Small British Shop Owner]

Hang on a second, you said religious people are lunatics so why does it bother you.

The bull if allowed to live could have spread TB

Lunatics still have feelings.

Whilst the bull could have spread TB, in practice I believe that he wouldn't have done. Like everything else in life, risk has to be balanced against reward, and I feel that the tiny risk of TB spreading via this animal was balanced by the reward of keeping these people, and their many supporters, happy.

[Capt. Ridley's Shooting Party]

And the consequences of the TB spreading are? Upsetting a few religious folks versus another foot and mouth type disaster? Not really a hard choice.

It's particularly hard for me to get worked up over a (potential) overreaction to cattle diseases in the UK, given what's happened to British agriculture over the past thirty years.


(As an aside, I understand that TB is spread by badgers but this fact is covered up for some reason).


I don't understand how you think that this is covered up. It's "common knowledge" that badgers spread TB, and in fact there are regular culls. The latest research suggests that the risk is vastly overblown and, in fact, badgers aren't a primary cause, e.g. see Krebs 1999 and the UK's Independent Scientific Group on Cattle Tuberclosis (New Scientist, June 2007).

[dropzone]

So what do you think? Would *you* have spared Shambo? Screw people's feelings, religions, and cattle! Bovine TB can be transferred to humans and if you aren't afraid of tuberculosis you should be.

Bovine TB, caused by M. bovis, can be transmitted from livestock to humans and other animals. No other TB organism has as great a host range as bovine TB, which can infect all warm blooded vertebrates. M. avium can affect all species of birds, as well as hogs and cattle. M. tuberculosis primarily affects humans but can also be transmitted to hogs, cattle, and dogs.http://www.aphis.usda.gov/vs/nahps/tb/

And deer, rabbits, and mice. I wouldn't trust a group that is against killing animals to share my method of ensuring isolation, a daily tactical nuclear strike.

[casdave]

Is it possible that this bull could have been treated to clear up any infection ?

Most likely the answer is yes, but this also points to the UK farms policy of not vaccinating animals against things like this, and foot & mouth disease.

The reason given for this is that to test wether such diseases are present, the current testing system relies on isolating anitbodies to the particular disease.

The problem with this is that vaccinated animals would also show up as positive for the disease based on this method of testing.

It would make it very difficult to track the progression of the disease through to the source, but you could argue that vaccination would obviate the need to do so, as the disease could not spread anyway.

Other countries routinely vaccinate against many of this diseases because there is already a natural reservoir of the disease in those countries, so a large number of farm animals would be exposed anyway and carry the antibodies.

UK farmers blame badgers for carrying Brucellosis, a form of TB that can infect cattle and are unhappy about the current ban on badger killing.

It does strike me that there is some other politics involved here, maybe the bull could have been cured and a certificate issued, but that would then open up a chink in the current system of not vaccinating farm stock.

If you allow farm stock to be immunised, under our current situation, you would have to require this to be done, and enforce it, I doubt that the farming industry would want to pay for such costs.

The farming lobby is an extremely powerful grouping in the UK, this is likely true in most countries in Europe.

[Mangetout]

If it could have been treated and if the owners were prepared to fund the treatment, I'd have said that would have represented the best solution.
Whether or not you happen to agree with their notion that the animal was special in the way they said it was, it was still of great value to them.

[mswas]

No, respect for idolatry should stop at being the cause of an epidemic.

[Small British Shop Owner]

No, respect for idolatry should stop at being the cause of an epidemic.

But is it plausible that Shambo would cause an epidemic?

[mswas]

But is it plausible that Shambo would cause an epidemic?

Yes. In my understanding he was not isolated from the people worshipping him.

[Small British Shop Owner]

Yes. In my understanding he was not isolated from the people worshipping him.

But he could have been.

[Freudian Slit]

If he's isolated, how could they have been able to worship him?

Too dangerous. Can't spare him. I'm okay with killing animals for food. Killing them when they could cause danger to people or other animals--that's acceptable, too, then.

[casdave]

So you mean we should have killed this bull even if the tb infection could have been cured??

[Freudian Slit]

So you mean we should have killed this bull even if the tb infection could have been cured??
If curing him took too long, then yes. It's not as if you can cure an infection like that overnight. I don't see why him being an "idol" makes him more special than the regular bulls out there.

[casdave]

Well given that this was first discovered almost 4 months ago, it seems they were not in that much of a hurry anyway.

If the authorities had allowed the animal to be innoculated, the issue would never have arisen in the first place, but in the UK you are not allowed to do so, for the reasons I already stated....but yet other countries have no problems with innoculation.

[Small British Shop Owner]

I don't see why him being an "idol" makes him more special than the regular bulls out there.

Because most bull owners are farmers, who see the bull (essentially) as a good, and so it is easy to fairly compensate the farmers when the bull is killed, and the farmers are not especially bothered.

The owners of this particular bull saw him as a deity, and no amount of compensation would justify his killing. Surely the difference is obvious?

[Freudian Slit]

If there was time, and no one else was getting infected, then sure, innoculate him. I just think the problem comes when the bull being an idol outweighs the health risks.

Because most bull owners are farmers, who see the bull (essentially) as a good, and so it is easy to fairly compensate the farmers when the bull is killed, and the farmers are not especially bothered.

The owners of this particular bull saw him as a deity, and no amount of compensation would justify his killing. Surely the difference is obvious?
If it's too dangerous to keep the bull around, then that's really just too bad. It's not a question of how much they like the bull--it's a question of public health. It doesn't matter how much they love the bull. If it could potentially hurt others, then that's what you have to look at it.

Aren't you the one who thought it was okay to kill tigers and elephants for the sake of social conventions?

[Small British Shop Owner]

If there was time, and no one else was getting infected, then sure, innoculate him. I just think the problem comes when the bull being an idol outweighs the health risks.

If it's too dangerous to keep the bull around, then that's really just too bad. It's not a question of how much they like the bull--it's a question of public health. It doesn't matter how much they love the bull. If it could potentially hurt others, then that's what you have to look at it.


But how bad are the health risks? No one has given any statistics, which suggests to me (being used to the British Government) that the risks are insignificant.

Aren't you the one who thought it was okay to kill tigers and elephants for the sake of social conventions?

Yes. And I ate some beef for lunch. My problem isn't with killing cows in general, it's about overriding so many people who were concerned about a specific cow.

[casdave]

The problem Zoggie is that they didn't have the option of innoculating this animal, we in the UK are simply not allowed to do this.

In many ways it is the DFA that is to blame, had a dispensation been issued there would not have been a problem.

The policy of not innoculating farm stock has arguments on both sides, but this was not a farm animal, one would have thought that this being the case, there would be some mechanism to allow it, after all, there are folk in the UK who own pigs as pets, pigs are also vulnerable to many infections.

You would think there would be some sort of licensing policy that would allow exemptions from the non-innoculation policy provided certain conditions were met, but no, our national policy must remain fixated and plough on blindly, and twenty years or more behind the times.

I find the whole thing by UK authorites highly hypocritical, since the policy is heavily influenced by those in the farming lobby.

On the one hand they will not allow licenced vaccination because it could cost them money, and yet, when it comes to racehorses, which are in effect farm livestock, they do have such a system, but guess what, the people who allow this exception - but not the one for pets and deities - are largely the same.

It's all about money and political influence, it is notheing to do with a sensible policy.

We had lots of fuss about rabies, despite effective vaccines being available, the stupid quarantine laws. It took decades for the farming authorites to catch up with reality and technology, yet countries in Europe where rabies is found have effective means to control it, they must think our policy of no innoculations is insane.

This whole situation need never have happened, it just stupid country Colonel Blimps setting national policy, regardless of sense.

[Mangetout]

I don't see why him being an "idol" makes him more special than the regular bulls out there.The animal was regarded as special by a group of people - that's really the only kind of special there ever is anyway.

I don't think that animal should have been saved (if that were possible) because it was an idol, but because people desperately wanted that to happen. If the animal had been a beloved pet, that would have been exactly the same, IMO. If a cure was possible, and the owners who really wanted it could afford it, that's what should have been done.

[Lust4Life]

If the animal was so isolated how did it contract T.B. in the first place?

But apart from that it would have set a precedent ,other religions that are comparatively recent imports could demand the legal smoking of marijuana ,multiple wives,child sex,Fatwahs and that suttee and honour killings be legalised.

Already for example ,Sihks are exempted from the U.Ks crash helmet laws which is fair enough in my view ,except that a Sihk friend of mine has told me that many of his co-religionists (including himself) of contempary generations no longer practice the rule that their hair and beards must never be cut.

It would appear that some religous rules that cause the faithful to receive preferential treatment under the law are written in stone ,whereas those that are a little more irksome can be dropped easily with no fear of eternal damnation or what ever approprobium is dished out for noncompliance within the belief system of choice.

[Mangetout]

But apart from that it would have set a precedent ,other religions that are comparatively recent imports could demand the legal smoking of marijuana ,multiple wives,child sex,Fatwahs and that suttee and honour killings be legalised.Gosh, sounds like a slippery slope.

Why does religion have to be part of the argument? A bunch of people wanted to save a valuable animal. That's all.

[Small British Shop Owner]

The animal was regarded as special by a group of people - that's really the only kind of special there ever is anyway.

I don't think that animal should have been saved (if that were possible) because it was an idol, but because people desperately wanted that to happen. If the animal had been a beloved pet, that would have been exactly the same, IMO. If a cure was possible, and the owners who really wanted it could afford it, that's what should have been done.

Just what I wanted to say, but much better put. Bravo!

[Small British Shop Owner]

Gosh, sounds like a slippery slope.

Why does religion have to be part of the argument? A bunch of people wanted to save a valuable animal. That's all.

Absolutely. I found it irritating that the National Secular Society decided to get involved (and I know from personal experience that a lot of them are the kind of people who work at RSPCA charity shops on their days off, which makes the whole idea even odder).

[smiling bandit]

Wow. No one yet made any kind of "sacred cow" joke.

[Szlater]

Already for example ,Sihks are exempted from the U.Ks crash helmet laws which is fair enough in my view ,except that a Sihk friend of mine has told me that many of his co-religionists (including himself) of contempary generations no longer practice the rule that their hair and beards must never be cut.


Doesn't that only apply if they're actually wearing a pagri? If they aren't, then they have to abide by the normal laws. It's not so much an exemption for sikhs as it is for those people who wear pagri.

The pagri exemption also applies to sikhs serving in the armed forces (except the RAF), but then I can't see anyone disagreeing with that as they have proved themselves time and again as some of the most competent soldiers in the British Army (lots of battle honours in WWII). I do wonder how they cope during NCBW training, do they have a special gasmask?

And Suttee? Really? Who is campaigning to allow that in the UK? I think the British government laid out its position on widows throwing their ghee coated bodies on pyres quite a long time ago.

[Mosier]

If you're willing to put your trust in a bunch of monks that I assume have never taken a single medical course to prevent an infected animal from spreading a disease, be my guest. I'm not sure most of us are willing to take that risk, and you'll have to pardon us for not giving a damn about making some people upset about it.

[Gorsnak]

Most likely the answer is yes, but this also points to the UK farms policy of not vaccinating animals against things like this
Tuberculosis is a bacterial disease, not a viral disease. There is no way to vaccinate against it.

[chowder]

Wow. No one yet made any kind of "sacred cow" joke.
Holy Cow :D

[Szlater]

Tuberculosis is a bacterial disease, not a viral disease. There is no way to vaccinate against it.

Umm.. there are plenty of vaccines against bacterial diseases.

For example, off the top of my head:

-Tuberculosis
-Tetanus
-Anthrax
-Pneumococcal
-Diphtheria
-Haemophilus influenzae
-Meningococcus
-Pertussis
-Typhoid
-Cholera

[Lust4Life]

And Suttee? Really? Who is campaigning to allow that in the UK? I think the British government laid out its position on widows throwing their ghee coated bodies on pyres quite a long time ago.

That is exactly the point I was making,in the U.K. its illegal now and will stay that way,(though its illegal in India but is still being practiced)just as a T.B. infected cow must be destroyed now and it will stay that way.

[VarlosZ]

I'm all for recognizing people's distress as a legitimate motivation for public policy, and I also think that, in a vacuum, it would be better to spare this particular cow.

However, this is (or should be) a question about the rule of law. If the executors of the law are able to disregard it when you think it's a good idea, then they will also be able to disregard it when you think it's a bad idea -- and, significantly, this includes instances in which the officials are malicous, self-serving, or otherwise corrupt. Government is useless without the rule of law, and sacrificing a cow (no pun intended) that, on balance, should probably have been spared is a small price to pay to stay true to that ideal.

[casdave]

Originally Posted by Gorsnak
Tuberculosis is a bacterial disease, not a viral disease. There is no way to vaccinate against it.


Oh really?

[VarlosZ]

Tuberculosis is a bacterial disease, not a viral disease. There is no way to vaccinate against it.
Just to supplement casdave's sarcasm: Oh really? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacillus_Calmette-Gu%C3%A9rin)

[Lust4Life]

Absolutely. I found it irritating that the National Secular Society decided to get involved (and I know from personal experience that a lot of them are the kind of people who work at RSPCA charity shops on their days off, which makes the whole idea even odder).

Its not being secular or religous that gets up my nose but that every group that has pretensions to some sort of minority status,whether ethnic ,sexual,sexual orientation ,religion or supposedly having one of the many blossoming pseudo psychological conditions, routinely trys it on ,usually quite cynically, just to see what they can get out of the system at the expense ironically of all the other so called minorities plus the poor sods who dont qualify for that sort of status but usually end up paying for it.

Though to be fair judging by the excited little smiles of some of the "protestors"it was more about getting their faces on T.V. and having a thrilling anecdote to boast of to friends and family afterwards but of course Icould be entirely wrong about their motivation.

And on the matter of animal suffering are cattle infected with T.B. feeling quite comfortable or do they feel like shit?
I honestly dont know myself, but going on the effect it had on my dad it wasnt a particulary pleasant experience being as it killed him.

[Chez Guevara]

Wow. No one yet made any kind of "sacred cow" joke.Unregistered Bull hasn't posted since Shambo died.

It's probably a coincidence though.

[mswas]

You can't vaccinate an animal after it's been infected.

[Small British Shop Owner]

You can't vaccinate an animal after it's been infected.

But surely you can isolate it without much difficulty.

[mswas]

But surely you can isolate it without much difficulty.

I don't know how difficult it is to isolate Tuberculosis, particularly when it is in contact with other animals, such as the human caretakers. I also don't know whether these monks have the appropriate ability it takes to quarantine such an infectious disease.

[Mangetout]

You can't vaccinate an animal after it's been infected.
No, but at least for some diseases (not sure about tuberculosis), treatment and cure is possible.

Actually, unless you're talking specifically about TB, you're not quite correct - there are some diseases for which vaccines can be administered after infection has occurred or is suspected (Rabies for one).

[Sri Theo]

There was also the issue, that I haven't seen mentioned yet- that the positive test is by no means a garuntee that the animal has TB, the test has a high rate of false positives.- but apparently its been confirmed post mortem so that doesn't matter.

And by the by did nobody else find it odd that there were so many White Hindu's there? I never would of thought it.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_pictures/6917241.stm

[mswas]

No, but at least for some diseases (not sure about tuberculosis), treatment and cure is possible.

Actually, unless you're talking specifically about TB, you're not quite correct - there are some diseases for which vaccines can be administered after infection has occurred or is suspected (Rabies for one).

I did not know that there were diseases you could vaccinate for after the fact.

[Mangetout]

I did not know that there were diseases you could vaccinate for after the fact.
Tetanus is another one - I think it's mostly because the diseases take time to spread through your body, so there's enough of you left unaffected to manufacture antibodies in response to the vaccine, while the real disease is still getting going elsewhere.

[Chotii]

UK farmers blame badgers for carrying Brucellosis, a form of TB that can infect cattle and are unhappy about the current ban on badger killing.

Well now. I can't find any evidence with Google that Brucellosis is a form of TB, but I can tell you this much: brucellosis is a horrible, horrible disease to get started in herds of domestic or wild cloven-footed animals (ie deer, elk, bison, cattle, not sure about sheep):

Brucellosis causes these animals to spontaneously abort their pregnancies. Over and over and over.

Now tell me how many cattle-farmers can stay in business if this happens? What happens to local populations of wild bison, deer and elk?

With that said:

While bovine tuberculosis appears, on the whole, generally to make the animals lose condition slowly over time, and not all infected animals appear to be contagious to people, still....having people contract it seems like a bad idea. And those people were around that bull, and no doubt went to handle the other animals on the property.

I am sorry the animal had to be killed. But I'm sure a great many biting dogs have been the beloved pets of their families...and they still get destroyed. Does it matter if a family of 5 loves the animal, or if a group of 200 loves the animal? What do emotions have to do with the making of a good law? Good laws are geared to the good of the greater population, not because of what a small group here or there may feel. I'm sure this group can get another bull and worship him as a symbol, the same as a family can get a new puppy and adore it.

[Bryan Ekers]

Kill them all, let Shiva sort it out.

[OneCentStamp]

Lunatics still have feelings.
This should be appended to the SDMB rules and guidelines.

[t-bonham@scc.net]

Is it possible that this bull could have been treated to clear up any infection ?Yes, but the animal remains a 'carrier', with a risk of spreading the disease to other, non-vaccinated cattle.

[t-bonham@scc.net]

But surely you can isolate it without much difficulty.No, it would be very difficult.

TB is spread via air-borne transmission. How do you propose to make sure that the exhaled breath of this infected bull doesn't escape into neighboring pastures?

It can also be carried on the clothes of people in contact with the infected bull, who then go out into open air near a neighboring pasture, or get on a bus next to other farmers, whose animals then get infected.

I have discussed with our Veterinarian the extreme efforts he has to take when dealing with certain equine diseases, to avoid spreading it to other stables.

You are quite wrong to think that an effective isolation program can be done "without much difficulty".

[Mangetout]

Yes, but the animal remains a 'carrier', with a risk of spreading the disease to other, non-vaccinated cattle.
Is that what happens when humans are treated for TB infection?

[Small British Shop Owner]

No, it would be very difficult.

TB is spread via air-borne transmission. How do you propose to make sure that the exhaled breath of this infected bull doesn't escape into neighboring pastures?

It can also be carried on the clothes of people in contact with the infected bull, who then go out into open air near a neighboring pasture, or get on a bus next to other farmers, whose animals then get infected.

I have discussed with our Veterinarian the extreme efforts he has to take when dealing with certain equine diseases, to avoid spreading it to other stables.

You are quite wrong to think that an effective isolation program can be done "without much difficulty".

If the goal is purely to keep the beast alive, without much regard to its quality of life, how about keeping it in a massive, sealed, greenhouse with tonnes of plant matter?

[Bryan Ekers]

If the goal is purely to keep the beast alive, without much regard to its quality of life, how about keeping it in a massive, sealed, greenhouse with tonnes of plant matter?
Well, heck, build a spaceship and put Shambo in orbit, if money is no object.


Mooncow!

[Lust4Life]

If Shambo is a god then hes still alive ,gods are immortal as far as I know and most certainly have the power to stop a bunch of officials from commanding their destiny against their wishes..
And if hes not a god then it must have been Krishna or Siva or whoever saying that it was time for the wheel of spacetime to turn.