Better: electric or paper?

[Pleonast]

The Perfect Master's latest column, What's better for the environment, electric hand dryers or paper towels? (http://www.straightdope.com/columns/070817.html) is another example of Cecil's excellent work. And congrats to Una for getting the role of research lackey this week.

Is that enough ass kissing? :)

There's no mention of the carbon footprint. All that paper thrown away is taking CO2 out of the atmosphere, if indirectly. Is this important or negligible?

Or if the paper isn't thrown away but recycled? How do we account for future reuses of the paper towels?

[Fear Itself]

All that paper thrown away is taking CO2 out of the atmosphere, if indirectly. Is this important or negligible?Negligible, because all that paper gives up its CO2 when it decomposes. Some paper can last a long time in a landfill, but compared to carbon sequestration in coal, oil or limestone, even that is not very long.

[rtanenbaum]

Velly intervesting. They take into account the energy it takes to produce the paper towels. But do they take into account the energy it takes to produce the hand driers? Think about what it takes to make the plastic and the electric motors. The driers might come out ahead since their construction is a one-time cost, but the paper towels are being manufactured continually.

[Una Persson]

Velly intervesting. They take into account the energy it takes to produce the paper towels. But do they take into account the energy it takes to produce the hand driers? Think about what it takes to make the plastic and the electric motors. The driers might come out ahead since their construction is a one-time cost, but the paper towels are being manufactured continually.
Yes, I took into account the energy to manufacture the hand dryers, the energy to transport the dryers to the site, and the energy to discard the hand dryers when they died. On the paper side, I took into account transport energy for the paper towels to the site, as well as disposal energy to the landfill. I also looked at the energy to manufacture the paper towel dispenser, although that was not significant for the analysis.

FTR I did not look hard at cost, although from my surveys it appeared that on that standpoint, the hand dryers were a slam-dunk favourite.

[Lanzy]

My way is better.

Wash and rinse hands. Shake hands, run hands through hair. Hands dry by the time I return to my desk. Hair looks ok.

[Pleonast]

Hey, Una, any comment on the carbon footprint?

[Una Persson]

Hey, Una, any comment on the carbon footprint?
That I did not analyze, other than the direct impact of the energy consumption. I did see a large number of assumptions for what would happen to the paper towels in the landfill - that is, what is the total carbon sequestration involved. Depending upon how much you assume ends up as methane, you could end up with a large difference in the possible net greenhouse gas impact. The assumptions would also depend upon several things, such as the renewable energy use of the mills (paper mills use a lot of renewable energy), the transport use, etc.

Another factor which was brought to my attention was the possible impact of heating up an air-conditioned space by the hand dryers, but due to discussions with HVAC folks, and learning that many buildings exhaust via the bathrooms anyways (for obvious reasons), this impact seemed too difficult to quantify.

[DSYoungEsq]

By the way, Una, let me just say that I'm in awe anyone would even attempt such a spreadsheet. I'm quite certain it isn't exactly the sort of thing one whips up on Excel in an afternoon. :D

[LurkMeister]

My major problem with air dryers in bathrooms is that there are times when you need to wipe something off your hands. And I'm not talking about something that got on them while I was in the stall. On several occasions I have somehow gotten grease or tar on my hand, gone into the bathroom to clean it off, and found it did not have any paper towels. Have you ever tried to scrub your hands with wet toilet tissue?

[Ian Varley]

Nice article, guys.

Something that's related to the paper towel / electric dryer choice (though not directly to the environmental impact) is the germ factor. I remember going to a demonstration of a new hand washing technology (isn't my life fabulous?) wherein people would stick their hands into these spinning cylinders that sprayed them down and got them "operating room clean" in about 10 seconds (allegedly). Anyway, they had paper towels to dry off with, because they said that electric hand dryers actually cover your hands with a thick layer of all the bacteria that's hanging out in the bathroom air. Makes sense to me - I haven't used one since. Any comments?

[GusNSpot]

Well done Una....

I hate blow hand dryers....

Don't like being downwind of a paper mill either. He he he

[Una Persson]

Well done Una....

I hate blow hand dryers....

Don't like being downwind of a paper mill either. He he he
Thanks Gus, but let's not oversell my contribution here. Cecil is the man who does all the hard work, and he's the Man. I'm just one of his helpers who mainly helped out with estimates on energy use.

And I like paper mills. They're cool places to work, and they smell sweet once you get used to it.

[Elendil's Heir]

Nice job, Unca Cecil and Una. But there must have been a million variables and I'd guess you had to make nearly as many assumptions, however well-informed, to arrive at your conclusions. I still favor paper towels: you can dry your hands with them faster, and more completely, than with even the strongest air dryers in the same amount of time. And as LurkMeister pointed out, if you have something you want to get off your hands, there's no comparison.

And what's up with those old-fashioned continuous-loop cloth towel dispensers, anyway? As Cecil wrote, those always seemed broken or gross, or both. Would the same length of towel be in one dispenser forever, or would a laundry service come by every now and then and replace it with a new one? Was there some kind of cleaning mechanism in the box itself? Seems unlikely. Haven't seen one in a long time, come to think of it.

[Una Persson]

And what's up with those old-fashioned continuous-loop cloth towel dispensers, anyway? As Cecil wrote, those always seemed broken or gross, or both. Would the same length of towel be in one dispenser forever, or would a laundry service come by every now and then and replace it with a new one? Was there some kind of cleaning mechanism in the box itself? Seems unlikely. Haven't seen one in a long time, come to think of it.
They are laundered by a service when they reach the end. AFAIK they are not meant to go around more than once.

[Bill Door]

Thanks Gus, but let's not oversell my contribution here. Cecil is the man who does all the hard work, and he's the Man. I'm just one of his helpers who mainly helped out with estimates on energy use.

And I like paper mills. They're cool places to work, and they smell sweet once you get used to it.

You're right there. Kraft pulp mills smell like money to me.

[Una Persson]

You're right there. Kraft pulp mills smell like money to me.
Honestly, or symbolically? I've only worked at three of them, but I always thought they reminded me of how some grain processors smelled - sweet, but with a touch of sulphur underneath it all.

[Bill Door]

Honestly, or symbolically? I've only worked at three of them, but I always thought they reminded me of how some grain processors smelled - sweet, but with a touch of sulphur underneath it all.

More actually than symbolically, although pulp mills have given me a decent living over the years. I do like the smell of the kraft process, but try to stay upwind of the effluent treatment facilities, and the neutral sulfite semi-chemical process burns my nose, but there aren't many facilities still using that.

There are a lot of wood sugars in the black liquor, mainly hemicellulose based, arabinose, xylose, galactose and mannose, with rather a lot of glucose from the peeling reaction in cellulose. That much sugar gives it almost a mollasses like undertone. On top of that you'll have some hydrogen sulfides and methyl mercaptans, which nobody likes the smell of. In softwood facilities the alpha-pinene and beta-pinenes show up too. I kind of like the smell of turpentine, but some don't.

Of course all of these, while over the odor threshold are well below any harmful or regulatory limit.

[GusNSpot]

There is one near the Southeast corner of Oklahoma, actually in Arkansas, IIRC, but anyway, we could smell it from 6000 feet and 20 miles certain days when flying near there. It was our signal that we were getting close to Texarkana....

[Rick]

And I like paper mills. They're cool places to work, and they smell sweet once you get used to it.
The one I was in was very hot and humid as the hot pulp was made into paper. Smelled like wet cardboard also.

[Threadkiller]

...And I like paper mills. They're cool places to work, and they smell sweet once you get used to it.I did grad school just north of Lewston, Idaho where the Potlatch paper mill operated. To get there, you took several switchbacks down into a valley. The smell was very noticeable--(I would go so far as to call it a stench reminiscent of sauerkraut—and I like sauerkraut). Most residents of Lewiston that I talked to would admit that the smell was pretty bad but, yes, they had gotten used to it.

I knew a girl that interned there for two years. She liked first year, testing water quality by spending the summer rowing around in boat. The second year spent measuring levels in the plant's internal sewer didn't have the same fond memories.

[Equipoise]

One of those situations where you've never heard of something, but then you come across it and then it seems to show up again and again just happened to me. The other night I was at a movie theater (the "600" in Chicago) and they had the coolest hand dryers in the bathroom, a type that I'd never seen before. It was a Dyson. Now I read Cecil's column and the Dyson is mentioned. Then I read this thread and the Dyson is one of the Google ads. It's weird when that happens!

The Dyson was fantastic and, I must admit, fun to play with. I hope to see more of them elsewhere.

Good column. Good job Una!

[Randy Seltzer]

Nice article, guys.

Something that's related to the paper towel / electric dryer choice (though not directly to the environmental impact) is the germ factor. I remember going to a demonstration of a new hand washing technology (isn't my life fabulous?) wherein people would stick their hands into these spinning cylinders that sprayed them down and got them "operating room clean" in about 10 seconds (allegedly). Anyway, they had paper towels to dry off with, because they said that electric hand dryers actually cover your hands with a thick layer of all the bacteria that's hanging out in the bathroom air. Makes sense to me - I haven't used one since. Any comments?

I actually found myself wondering this too. But the question also felt familiar. I searched the archives and found this (http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a1_279.html). It's the SD article about the germ factor. I'd read it before but had forgotten...

Enjoy!

[iwakura43]

How long have those Dyson dryers been around? When I went to Japan this February I was amazed that they had hand dryers that actually worked (using, Dyson says (http://www.engadget.com/2006/10/03/dysons-airblade-dries-hands-with-400mph-blast-of-air/), high-speed air to blow the water off your hands (much like at a carwash), instead of warm air to evaporate it.) The machines looked quite similar to the Dyson one in the picture, but looked much older, wasn't obviously branded, and was a generic sort of beige.

[Una Persson]

How long have those Dyson dryers been around? When I went to Japan this February I was amazed that they had hand dryers that actually worked (using, Dyson says (http://www.engadget.com/2006/10/03/dysons-airblade-dries-hands-with-400mph-blast-of-air/), high-speed air to blow the water off your hands (much like at a carwash), instead of warm air to evaporate it.) The machines looked quite similar to the Dyson one in the picture, but looked much older, wasn't obviously branded, and was a generic sort of beige.
They might have been the Mitsubishi Jet Towel, a model Cecil's researchers also looked at.

http://www.mitsubishijettowel.com/overview/

[dropzone]

Y'know, if everybody just followed the advice found in the Hitchiker's Guide and always had their own towels we wouldn't be having this discussion.

[Johnny L.A.]

I've tried them all, and I say bunk — drying my hands almost always takes two or more cycles
You're doing it wrong.
and researchers at the University of Westminster back me up
So are they.

[Meurglys]

They are laundered by a service when they reach the end. AFAIK they are not meant to go around more than once. I worked in fairly small office in the 70s & 80s which had several of these units. They sometimes jammed, or reached the end of the towel, but they couldn't go round again... they needed replaced.
Someone in the office (sometimes myself) had to change the rolls of towel when the old ones were finished, and once a fortnight the dirty ones would be swapped for clean ones with the Vendor. We always had several spare rolls on hand so, theoretically, we never ran out of clean towels...

[nkuvu]

Curious about drying times.

Here in Arizona, the air dryers run for what I consider to be an inordinately long time. I'm done drying my hands long before the dryer turns off.

So it would seem that the local relative humidity would affect the costs as well. I would expect that air dryers would be much more economical in places like Arizona than they would be in more humid climates.

Was this accounted for in the analysis?

[Una Persson]

Curious about drying times.

Here in Arizona, the air dryers run for what I consider to be an inordinately long time. I'm done drying my hands long before the dryer turns off.

So it would seem that the local relative humidity would affect the costs as well. I would expect that air dryers would be much more economical in places like Arizona than they would be in more humid climates.

Was this accounted for in the analysis?
I sure didn't; I don't know if Cecil did, but I would doubt it because I would think it would be very difficult to quantify, and difficult to come up with a good average figure or effect. I mean, the variables involved just seem really...well, variable, IMO. I'll ask him and see what he says.