Pursuit of ethnic diversity a contributing factor in Baltimore City FF recruit death

[danceswithcats]

FF Recruit Racheal Wilson died on 9 February 2007 in a training exercise which went terribly wrong. National standards were ignored and deviated from, and this Pitting is in no way intended to minimize their role in her unfortunate demise. What I do Pit is the practice of lowering standards when testing, such that the appropriate demographic is represented in a hiring category.

Baltimore City caught hell several years ago for an all-white recruit class. In response, they upped recruiting efforts for minorities and females. Nothing wrong with that, so long as they meet the standard.

The final report on the training incident involving the death of FF Recruit Wilson states on pages 92 and 93:
Finding: Racheal Wilson did not meet the specified times for the physical agility test and may not have been physically capable of performing the job functions of a firefighter.

Discussion: The discussion that follows is extremely delicate and was difficult for the investigative team to express in words. The discussion involves the physical make-up of Racheal Wilson, her entry into BCFD, and her alleged difficulties throughout the Training Academy. It should be noted in advance that this discussion does not change the facts or sequence of events that occurred on February 9, 2007.

According to the information obtained from BCFD, Racheal Wilson did not successfully complete the physical agility test, failing the tower walk by ten seconds. She took the same test seven months earlier and completed four of the five stations faster than she did in her later attempt. Based on comparison of the two tests, one could surmise her physical condition declined from the time she first took the test to her second attempt. Although she did not successfully complete the test, she was allowed to continue in the hiring process.

Racheal’s physical stature may have presented some challenges to her becoming a firefighter. This is not meant to imply that she was not physically capable of performing the job, but numerous people, both instructors and students, commented on her inability or difficulty in performing certain tasks.

For example, Firefighter Keith Farrar, an instructor at the Academy, stated that every time he observed her open the nozzle of a hose line, the force of water flowing through the nozzle either caused her to fall, or nearly fall. The same situation occurred on February 9, when Ryan Wenger instructed Wilson to open the nozzle to knock down the fire on the second floor. Upon opening the nozzle, both Wenger and Stephanie Cisneros reported that Wilson fell. Wenger had to take the nozzle from Wilson and knock down the fire so they could proceed to the third floor. This is an example of where Wilson’s inability to perform a fairly simple job function could have had a negative effect on her and her crew and should have been previously documented.
Here is a person who, despite her best efforts, was not able to meet the standards, yet was allowed to continue until they reached a point at which their inability to perform proved fatal. I don’t want unqualified people on engine, truck, or rescue companies, no matter how warm and fuzzy it makes the statisticians feel that the FD has x% blacks, y% hispanics, and z% females. If you go down because you can’t crawl the hall, now I have to send in two more FFs to drag your sorry ass out, or go in myself. As a firefighter evaluator, I’ve flunked candidates of both genders and all races/ethnic groups. Perform the skill safely and competently, and I’ll pass you. It’s that simple. Those who fail standards are a liability to themselves and others.

Link to report referenced above: http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/local/baltimore_city/bal-recruitingreport-htmlstory,0,1081394.htmlstory

[Contrapuntal]

If you can't pass the firefighter test you should not be a firefighter. It is literally life or death.

(I applied for a firefighter position. I did not pass the written test.)

[SnakesCatLady]

What is sad is that passing unqualified people puts not only them in danger, but puts other firefighters at risk. It is just stupid to pass someone who can't perform the job in the name of "diversity".

[Typo Negative]

What is sad is that passing unqualified people puts not only them in danger, but puts other firefighters at risk. ".As well as the general public.

[WhyNot]

As well as the general public.
Yep. My fat ass doesn't get any lighter because you're a woman (or a slightly built man, for that matter). If your job is to drag said fat ass down three flights of stairs in the blazing heat of a fire, it's absolutely irrelevant to me whether you have a penis or a vagina or black skin or purple skin. What is important is that you can drag the average fat American ass down three flights of stairs in the blazing heat of a fire.

I don't even see why this is a debate, frankly.

[tomndebb]

Is there yet any evidence where the pressure to let her proceed lay?

Is there a policy, (written or unwritten), telling the instructors to pass women who are "close" so that the recruitment numbers stay high?
Does it appear that the training team was passing her along to satisfy pressure from above or to keep up arbitrary pass rates?
Was there any particular officer in the training team who was ordering failures to be ignored?

I am curious whether ignoring her failures was official policy, unofficial "understood" policy, or the practice of a single officer in a key position.

Lowered standards are always bad, but they have to be implemented at some specific level and I'd rather reserve my RO for the appropriate humans.

[wring]

was she the only recruit who failed a standard?

[BiblioCat]

Is there yet any evidence where the pressure to let her proceed lay?

Is there a policy, (written or unwritten), telling the instructors to pass women who are "close" so that the recruitment numbers stay high?
Does it appear that the training team was passing her along to satisfy pressure from above or to keep up arbitrary pass rates?
Here's (http://www.beaumonde.net/weblog/archives/2004_04.shtml) one place to look. Scroll down to "April 21, 2004 - Where's The Fire?" (Sorry, I can't link directly to an older Baltimore Sun article. You have to pay to search back further than 2 weeks.)
Here's (http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/local/baltimore_city/bal-md.ci.fire25feb25,0,5190268.story?coll=ba) a recent Sun article. At the bottom of the first page it mentions the revamped hiring process.

Back in 2004, the Baltimore City Fire Academy graduated an all-white class of recruits. Of the very small number of minority applicants who were able to pass the written test, they were later excluded from the hiring process since they either had criminal records or could not pass the mandatory drug testing.
When this all-white class made the newspapers, people went ballistic, and demanded that the written exam be re-vamped so minorities could have a better chance of passing it. They also lowered the standards for the agility testing, and made the hiring process easier.
Since then, the city has made a lot of noise about how 'ethnically diverse' their recruit classes are. Nevermind if the recruits are competent, apparently what matters is that they all look good as a group in their graduation photo.

Racheal Wilson, the FF cadet who was killed in the training exercise, was 5'4" and weighed 192 pounds. She took the agility test one time and failed. She took it again several months later, and actually performed worse than she did the first time. Somehow, she was allowed into the newest recruit class. She had also displayed a tendency for removing her facepiece during times of stress. In earlier years, this would have been enough to get you kicked out of class.
There is a guy at my firehouse who is only an auxillary member because he couldn't pass Firefighter 1. He freaked out in stressful situations and kept taking his facepiece off. They kicked him out. (This is in Baltimore County, not the city)
FF Recruit Wilson was also unable to hold a hose when it was charged, or at the time it is spraying water - kind of an important skill to master, don't you think?
She was also unable to hoist herself up to climb out a window and down a ladder.

It's my firm belief that Racheal Wilson was passed along in the initial testing process, and even in class just because of the city's need for an ethnically diverse class. She had no place being there.

There is proof that the fires set that day in the training exercise got out of hand, and some recruits did not have radios. Also, FF Recruit Wilson had old gear that was worn and did not protect her. It all added up to a terrible tragedy, but she had no business being there in the first place.

[Little Nemo]

Here's one place to look. Scroll down to "April 21, 2004 - Where's The Fire?" (Sorry, I can't link directly to an older Baltimore Sun article. You have to pay to search back further than 2 weeks.)The link is to a conservative blog that is anti-affirmative action (the writer mentions Chappaquiddick, the Kennedy Smith rape trial, Soviet adventurism, Monica Lewinsky, and Sept. 11 all in a single sentence in one article - that's supposedly an obituary). His discussion of the all white class appears to be biased. It briefly mentions that some black people complained about the lack of publicity over the test and acknowledged that most of the applicants heard about the test through word of mouth from firefighters. And then - in what is undoubtedly a coincidence - the small number of non-white applicants who did hear about the test and passed it, all subsequently failed their background checks. But no concerns about the hiring of the best possible firefighters was made at that time. Apparently it can safely be assumed that in a city that is less than 32% white, none of the best possible firefighter trainees are in the non-white population.

[BiblioCat]

It briefly mentions that some black people complained about the lack of publicity over the test and acknowledged that most of the applicants heard about the test through word of mouth from firefighters. What sort of publicity should the city utilize for job openings? They advertise testing dates in the paper, and on the city's website. Should it be the lead story on the news? Should they put up billboards?

And then - in what is undoubtedly a coincidence - the small number of non-white applicants who did hear about the test and passed it, all subsequently failed their background checks. But no concerns about the hiring of the best possible firefighters was made at that time. I'm not sure what you're saying here - they did hire the best possible candidates for that class. They hired the candidates who had clean backgrounds and were able to pass a drug test. The applicants who passed the written test but had misdemeanors (or worse) on their records or were unable or unwilling to pass drug testing are not the best candidates.

[Little Nemo]

I'm not sure what you're saying here - they did hire the best possible candidates for that class. They hired the candidates who had clean backgrounds and were able to pass a drug test. The applicants who passed the written test but had misdemeanors (or worse) on their records or were unable or unwilling to pass drug testing are not the best candidates.No, the best you can say is that they hired the best candidates from among the people who took the test. And if their hiring system is set up so that the majority of the people in the city aren't aware of the test, then they're missing a lot of potentially good applicants - some of whom statistically would be better than the ones who were actually hired.

I agree with the OP that you should set standards and hire the best possible people out of the applicant pool. But you should also make sure that your applicant pool is as big as possible.

[tomndebb]

Nevermind if the recruits are competent, apparently what matters is that they all look good as a group in their graduation photo.
. . .
It's my firm belief that Racheal Wilson was passed along in the initial testing process, and even in class just because of the city's need for an ethnically diverse class. She had no place being there.I have no doubt that Ms. Wilson was passed along to keep the "diversity" quotient high. My explicit question is where the decision to do that sort of "social passing" has occurred.

Is it really at the level of the city administration? The fire department hierarchy? Some numbskull in HR? A specific member of the training team?

I knew a woman who was totally incompetent who was protected by her immediate supervisor for seventeen years. Her supervisor had cowed a succession of her bosses, for years, to leave the incompetent clerk alone. The company had no policy--written, unwritten, "understood," or whatever--to protect people due to their minority status. The clerk's supervisor was not particularly "liberal" politically, (quite the opposite). It was "well known" within the department that the clerk was only kept on for racial numbers. Yet, as soon as the supervisor retired, her boss immediately began collecting the documantation to fire the clerk. In that case, it had nothing to do with racial policies and everything to do with one odd supervisor (with a dragon lady reputation) intimidating her superiors for whatever odd reasons of her own. I really doubt that the Wilson situation followed the same path, but offer this example of a case where what "everyone knew" about racial issues had nothing to do with racial policies in the department and everything to do with the quirks of an individual in management.

So, my question remains: at what level is the lowering of standards being promoted? Municipal, fire department, training section, or training supervisor?

they did hire the best possible candidates for that class. They hired the candidates who had clean backgrounds and were able to pass a drug test.That is arguable. If the most common drug test failure (or refusal to take a drug test), was prompted by marijuana use, then I submit that it has nothing to do with job performance and everything to do with the current anti-drug hysteria that has hobbled this country. (No, I do not want someone high on pot at the wheel of a 16,000 lb. engine careering down my street. On the other hand, the majority of the people I have known who used pot recreationally were no more likely to go to work stoned than the recreational drinkers I have known were likely to go to work drunk and I have never heard of a breathalyzer/ignition interlock on a fire engine.)

[danceswithcats]

No, the best you can say is that they hired the best candidates from among the people who took the test. And if their hiring system is set up so that the majority of the people in the city aren't aware of the test, then they're missing a lot of potentially good applicants - some of whom statistically would be better than the ones who were actually hired.

I agree with the OP that you should set standards and hire the best possible people out of the applicant pool. But you should also make sure that your applicant pool is as big as possible.

By advertising on the city website and placing ads in the newspaper, the city has done all they are obligated to do. According to 2000 Census data, blacks make up 64.3% of Baltimore City’s population, so are you suggesting that almost 2/3 of a major metropolitan area’s inhabitants are wholly unaware? It’s not a secret that BCFD tests annually. Furthermore, the Baltimore chapter of the NAACP proudly notes that they are the second oldest chapter in America, and according to their website, meet monthly with the Fire Chief, 12-18 department heads from BCFD and the two unions representing firefighters and fire officers.

You may call it a minor matter of semantics, but there’s a difference, IMO, between ‘getting a job’ and ‘pursuing a career’. When I was seeking a career in law enforcement, I made it my business to find out who was testing and when, what their requirements were, and so forth. All of that was done before the days of the internet. If somebody in Baltimore wants to know the real deal, they could start with a walk over to the local fire station, as I have a feeling they’d know. For years, ARCO has published study guides for a variety of Civil Service positions. If you want to be a firefighter, hie thee to the library and check one out. Review the physical evaluation, and if need be, change/adopt a workout regimen. Personal responsibility. Take it.

A *gasp* conservative man of color (La Shawn Barber) made these observations regarding a similar situation in Denver, CO a tad over two years ago:

Denver Fire Department to Dumb Down Test
…so black applicants can pass it.

For reasons unknown, it never occurs to the clueless in charge of these things to change the people trying to pass the test instead of diluting the test for the people. I assume such tests measure cognitive ability and certain skills set for the job.
Rather than shifting upward and expanding the pool of qualified black applicants (as affirmative action was originally conceived) with the requisite cognitive ability and skills, they’ll shift downward to make the test “passable” for black applicants, specifically. The first thing whites do when making these decisions is appeal to the lowest element. And this is offensive to no black person but me?
And apparently since a higher percentage of “minorities” have criminal records, they will also “put in place a process in which candidates’ past transgressions — if relatively minor - could be considered on a case-by-case basis.”
I’m not making this up. Instead hiring people with no criminal records and smart enough to pass a firefighters test, they’ll hire people with police records and not smart enough to pass the firefighters test. My indignation against this garbage is only one of many reasons black liberals “take issue” with me. Their attitudes are most idiotic and illogical.
I clearly see the sort of depraved thinking and low expectations certain whites have about blacks. No one should be taught to get by in life on the color of his skin, and when I call it out, the venom turns in my direction instead of toward the people who make rules perpetuating mediocrity and a hand-out mentality in the first place!
If hiring rap sheet-free intelligent people means they won’t hire a black applicant for another five years, so be it. Perhaps if mothers and fathers start teaching children that being dull, crime-prone, and whiny is no way to go through life, they would learn not to use their skin color to get what they didn’t earn and don’t deserve.
“We shall overcome. We shall overcome. We shall overcome some dayyyyyyyyyy…”
Makes me sick to my stomach.

If you can take off the conservative viewpoint filter, you might see what wisdom the man speaks.

My explicit question is where the decision to do that sort of "social passing" has occurred.

Is it really at the level of the city administration? The fire department hierarchy? Some numbskull in HR? A specific member of the training team?

I’m rather doubtful that Mayor Dixon is going to make me privy to her interdepartmental emails, or relate the context of phone calls, much less answer your direct query. Any directive, if put in writing, would have the potential of being a tool for use in a reverse discrimination lawsuit, were it to ever be leaked. Besides, she has enough problems with charges that she skirted procurement laws, steered $525K in a no-bid deal to a contracting company owned by her campaign chairman, and hired her sister, violating ethics rules of the City. It would appear that rule bending is not beyond her embrace.

All we know for sure is that FF Recruit Wilson failed the physical agility evaluation on two occasions, and because someone put diversity ahead of common sense and safety, there’s a deceased lady and two orphaned children.

That is arguable. If the most common drug test failure (or refusal to take a drug test), was prompted by marijuana use, then I submit that it has nothing to do with job performance and everything to do with the current anti-drug hysteria that has hobbled this country. (No, I do not want someone high on pot at the wheel of a 16,000 lb. engine careering down my street. On the other hand, the majority of the people I have known who used pot recreationally were no more likely to go to work stoned than the recreational drinkers I have known were likely to go to work drunk and I have never heard of a breathalyzer/ignition interlock on a fire engine.)

If you want to argue drug laws in the US, I think you know where the ‘new thread’ button is. Right or wrong, you have to have recently arrived here from another planet to not be aware of how the matter is handled. It’s a simple decision: Do you want a position in Civil Service? If yes, then don’t use drugs. If you did, and got caught, then that kinda indicates you aren’t the sharpest knife in the drawer. Drugs or booze, anybody in a municipal employ situation is subject to random testing. I am as a reserve snow plow operator for PennDOT. Any member of my volunteer fire department is subject to random testing, as well, if impairment is suspected.

[Little Nemo]

Dances, conservatives seemed to accept any flaws in the system until those flaws gave an unfair advantage to a black woman. And now they're saying the system needs a massive reform. Why weren't conservatives calling for change three years ago when there was evidence that other qualified candidates were being missed?

[whiterabbit]

There is a huge fucking wildfire right now just outside the town I live in. There are tons of firefighters from quite a lot of places out there. I'm sure some are women -- the top person in charge of the whole operation is a woman, actually, and I'm sure she's done her share of up-close-and-personal firefighting, even if she isn't now. However, as long as they're qualified, I don't give a rat's ass about their gender, race, religion, planet of origin -- anything.

The thought of lowering standards for firefighting in the name of diversity (especially concerning women, who often simply do not have the physical strength required, and it's not sexist to say that) gives me the creeps. Said departments need to figure out ways to attract more qualified applicants, not lower their standards for the ones they have. How is this not totally fucking obvious?

[Airman Doors, USAF]

Dances, conservatives seemed to accept any flaws in the system until those flaws gave an unfair advantage to a black woman. And now they're saying the system needs a massive reform. Why weren't conservatives calling for change three years ago when there was evidence that other qualified candidates were being missed?

1) What makes you think that they were not?

2) It's never too late to try to fix a mistake.

3) What difference does it make one way or the other? It's clearly an issue that needs to be addressed now, so let it be addressed instead of trying to ascribe motives to it. Further, it's disingenuous to pretend that liberals didn't see the flaws in the system as well. There's not a liberal alive that would want their house to burn down in the name of diversity.

[danceswithcats]

Dances, conservatives seemed to accept any flaws in the system until those flaws gave an unfair advantage to a black woman. And now they're saying the system needs a massive reform. Why weren't conservatives calling for change three years ago when there was evidence that other qualified candidates were being missed? I haven't liked the system for 35 years, thank you. At the start of that time, I was liberal-leaning, but still would have agreed with the ideology expressed my Mr. Barber, had his words been penned, then.

Do you accept my responses to your other allegations regarding inadequacy of informational awareness being rendered to the populus, or are they likewise dismissed because of my political inclination?

[Little Nemo]

1) What makes you think that they were not?

2) It's never too late to try to fix a mistake.

3) What difference does it make one way or the other? It's clearly an issue that needs to be addressed now, so let it be addressed instead of trying to ascribe motives to it. Further, it's disingenuous to pretend that liberals didn't see the flaws in the system as well. There's not a liberal alive that would want their house to burn down in the name of diversity.And I'm sure there's not a conservative alive who would want his house burned down in the name of tradition. We all want the best firefighters on the job. But both sides seem to have blind spots where they overlook bad hiring practices. Policies that push qualified black applicants out are as bad as policies that push unqualified black applicants in.

I think we're all basing our knowledge of this situation on the same limited set of facts. If people have other sources of information they should give us the links. All of the information I have about the 2004 "all white" class came from dancewithcats' links - and the writer of that blog was defending the status quo not seeking changes. And the call now for reform is apparently only calling for a change in the policies that allowed Racheal Wilson in. (Admittedly there were changes after the 2004 class that did widen the applicant process but the blogger was opposed to these changes.) If this blogger's opinions were uncharacteristic of the conservative consensus and there was a conservative outcry, I'd be glad to hear about it.

[raindog]

Yep. My fat ass doesn't get any lighter because you're a woman (or a slightly built man, for that matter). If your job is to drag said fat ass down three flights of stairs in the blazing heat of a fire, it's absolutely irrelevant to me whether you have a penis or a vagina or black skin or purple skin. What is important is that you can drag the average fat American ass down three flights of stairs in the blazing heat of a fire.

I don't even see why this is a debate, frankly.
Question[s]:

What if the job is to wrestle your fat ass to the ground during a domestic dispute and put cuffs on you? Or chase you down a dark alley and engage in a physical altercation and effect an arrest? Or kick down a door and bring down a kidnapper?


What if it means running 60 yards at full tilt with body armor and 75 pounds of gear on your back to save a wounded soldier? What about engaging in hand to hand combat with [an almost exclusively] male who aims to kill you?


What if it means shoveling asphalt into a hopper as you black top a road; or carry hundreds of pounds of material up a fully extended extension ladder while working as an iron worker? What about working as a hod carrier or roofer?

Does the rationale still apply?

[Little Nemo]

Do you accept my responses to your other allegations regarding inadequacy of informational awareness being rendered to the populus, or are they likewise dismissed because of my political inclination?Most of your responses seem to be that I was just dismissing anything said by a conservative. This isn't true. I listen - when a conservative is making sense I'll agree with him or her. And when they're wrong, I'll say so.

As for the notification that was made back in 2004, I don't know to what extent it was made except for what I have read here. You say the city did all it was obligated to do. No doubt that's true - I doubt the city was going to do less than the obligated minimum. But if the outcome wasn't sufficient, then the city should have acted and gone beyond the obligated minimum required. The issue is supposed to be hiring the most qualified firfighters not fulfilling the minimal civil service obligations.

[WhyNot]

Does the rationale still apply?
I'm sorry, I don't understand the question(s).

[GingerOfTheNorth]

I have no doubt that Ms. Wilson was passed along to keep the "diversity" quotient high. My explicit question is where the decision to do that sort of "social passing" has occurred.

Is it really at the level of the city administration? The fire department hierarchy? Some numbskull in HR? A specific member of the training team?

As an observer of Baltimore city politics for the past few years, I have no doubt this came from the office of Mayor Martin O'Malley. He is now Governor of Maryland.

[GingerOfTheNorth]

I'm sorry, I don't understand the question(s).
I don't understand it either, the raindog. What are you trying to say?

[tomndebb]

I’m rather doubtful that Mayor Dixon is going to make me privy to her interdepartmental emails, or relate the context of phone calls, much less answer your direct query.Well, why are you ranting, here, if you have not even done your basic homework to know who you're ranting at? :p

I am not really doubting that some sort of "social promotion" is going on. I was just curious as to whether we knew where the bad decision was made so that I could decide whether to join the recreational outrage. I'm not that excited about ranting against "them" when I have no idea whether "they" represent an institution (at some unknown level) or some personal prejudice.

Lower standards are bad. I have not yet seen who lowered the standards. I'll wait for that information before I express hostility toward some unknown entity. ::: shrug :::

Any member of my volunteer fire department is subject to random testing, as well, if impairment is suspected.You mean you actually wait until there is a suspicion of impairment? You do not take invasive actions without probable cause? How foolish of your department to not test every person who walks in the door at the beginning of every single shift!

I am not going to make a big deal about the stupidity of U.S. drug laws, but I am not that impressed with a society that makes stupid laws and then whines when those laws have disparate effects on separate groups within society.

[raindog]

I'm sorry, I don't understand the question(s).
The basis of your post, if I understand it correctly, is that objective criteria should be followed in the hiring of fire fighters. Namely, do they have the necessary abilities to do the job? (without regard to gender or race) In other words, if the "job is to drag said fat ass down three flights of stairs in the blazing heat of a fire" , than accepting inferior applicants----in this case applicants who couldn't "drag said fat ass down three flights of stairs in the blazing heat of a fire"----- has the effect of reducing the effectiveness of the fire department. (albeit because of noble intentions; increasing racial/gender diversity)

I'm suprised that no one has brought up the obvious point that had Ms. Wilson been accepted, she ultimately may have put the lives of other citizens at risk. The loss of her life is a tradegy, but how many other Ms. Wilson's are out there right now---in dangerous jobs they are ill equipped to handle, and certainly less qualified than the superior applicants that were passed over in the name of diversity?

[Revenant Threshold]

I'm suprised that no one has brought up the obvious point that had Ms. Wilson been accepted, she ultimately may have put the lives of other citizens at risk. Huh? Posts 2-5 all cover that obvious point. And you quoted post 5.

[BiblioCat]

Lower standards are bad. I have not yet seen who lowered the standards. I'll wait for that information before I express hostility toward some unknown entity. ::: shrug :::
It was the City of Baltimore, and former Mayor (now Governor) Martin O'Malley. The public outcry over an all-white class of firefighters was such that they had to basically 'dumb down' the written test and make changes to the background checks. People were saying that having an all-white class in a city that is mostly black was an 'insult.' :confused:

Racheal Wilson had no place being in that class. She was physically unfit, and had shown a tendency for removing safety gear in times of stress.
It's not known (at least to the public) why she was admitted to the recruit class when she failed the agility test twice (and performed worse the second time, yet!), but that alone should have been enough to exclude her.

the raindog, I'm not sure what you're trying to ask, but given WhyNot's comment:
Originally Posted by WhyNot
Yep. My fat ass doesn't get any lighter because you're a woman (or a slightly built man, for that matter). If your job is to drag said fat ass down three flights of stairs in the blazing heat of a fire, it's absolutely irrelevant to me whether you have a penis or a vagina or black skin or purple skin. What is important is that you can drag the average fat American ass down three flights of stairs in the blazing heat of a fire.I can answer that. I'm a woman, the same height as the FF recruit who died (but I don't weigh nearly as much as she did).
When I took Firefighter One, there were no special considerations made for my gender or for the fact that I was nearly 20 years older than the other females in the class. I had to do everything everyone else did: haul heavy hose up and down stairways, climb ladders, carry ladders, throw ladders, crawl though dark mazes, 'rescue' classmates and lifelike dummies, carry heavy equipment, roll what seemed like miles and miles of heavy wet hoseline... and do all of this in 60 pounds of gear.
We did a rescue exercise in which we had to rescue classmates from a window and move them down a ladder. I was paired with a classmate who was about 6'2" and probably 200 pounds. He was in the window and I had to get him from the windowsill to the ladder, and down the ladder with my knee in his crotch, and my arms up under his armpits, while holding the side rails of the ladder. It was actually easier than I thought.

One thing: you're more than likely not going to have to drag someone's fat ass down three flights of stairs. You're trained to look for the closest exit, even if it's a window. Then you get them up and out the window and use the ladder technique I described above.

[WhyNot]

The basis of your post, if I understand it correctly, is that objective criteria should be followed in the hiring of fire fighters. Namely, do they have the necessary abilities to do the job? (without regard to gender or race)
That is correct.

In other words, if the "job is to drag said fat ass down three flights of stairs in the blazing heat of a fire" , than accepting inferior applicants----in this case applicants who couldn't "drag said fat ass down three flights of stairs in the blazing heat of a fire"----- has the effect of reducing the effectiveness of the fire department. (albeit because of noble intentions; increasing racial/gender diversity)

Yes, still correct.
I'm suprised that no one has brought up the obvious point that had Ms. Wilson been accepted, she ultimately may have put the lives of other citizens at risk.
Except that I did bring that up. In the post you quoted and then later dissected. And several other people brought it up as well. The loss of her life is a tradegy, but how many other Ms. Wilson's are out there right now---in dangerous jobs they are ill equipped to handle, and certainly less qualified than the superior applicants that were passed over in the name of diversity?

....uh-huh....yeah, I think we're still on the same page here...

So, again, I don't understand your questions in post #19.

[tomndebb]

It was the City of Baltimore, and former Mayor (now Governor) Martin O'Malley. The public outcry over an all-white class of firefighters was such that they had to basically 'dumb down' the written test and make changes to the background checks. People were saying that having an all-white class in a city that is mostly black was an 'insult.' :confused: I saw the claims made regarding the written tests and the background checks. OTOH, Ms. Wilson was clearly deficient in the physical requirements--as in she actually failed existing standards on more than one occasion. In regards to the question why she was permitted to continue, I have not yet seen any information indicating what person, following what rule or personal whim, permitted her to remain at the academy following those failures.

The lowered written standards and background checks may or may not be relevant to anything. Has there been a rise in criminal behavior among the BCFD since background checks were scaled back? Has there been a rash of idiotic mistakes made by firefighters leading to injury or property loss that has been tied to newly hired firefighters failing to understand what they were supposed to have been taught? Such events would cast suspicion on the purported lowering of standards. On the other hand, the standards for physical performance (lowered or not--that has not been mentioned), were disregarded in the case of Ms. Wilson. Before I get upset that the standards are lower, I would be upset that the standards at any level are being ignored. So my question remains: is the decision to let people stay in the system when they do not meet the physical requirements emanating from City Hall (trying to appease the electorate)? The top brass of the BCFD (to avoid answering tough questions from the mayor or council)? The department heads of the training program (trying to avoid tough questions from the brass)? Or the actions of a single individual who might have acted out of his or her own desire to promote diversity or perform a favor for a friend or to let Ms. Wilson fail on the job (if not quite so disastrously)?

[MN_Maenad]

On the other hand, the majority of the people I have known who used pot recreationally were no more likely to go to work stoned than the recreational drinkers I have known were likely to go to work drunk... I agree with you, but I also have to wonder how hard it is to lay off the stupid bong for a month so one's system will be clean for a drug test.

Applicants who can't quit using alcohol, nicotine, or illegal drugs long enough to get them cleaned out of their systems are not people I want fighting fires in my city. I've had no problem keeping clean at various times while interviewing.

[danceswithcats]

Well, why are you ranting, here, if you have not even done your basic homework to know who you're ranting at? :p My basic homework would be what, you smarmy fuck? Breaking into City Hall and rifling through the file cabinets? :rolleyes:

I am not really doubting that some sort of "social promotion" is going on. I was just curious as to whether we knew where the bad decision was made so that I could decide whether to join the recreational outrage. I'm not that excited about ranting against "them" when I have no idea whether "they" represent an institution (at some unknown level) or some personal prejudice.

Lower standards are bad. I have not yet seen who lowered the standards. I'll wait for that information before I express hostility toward some unknown entity. ::: shrug :::
Because there is no smoking gun, no absolute final individual upon whom we can pin the blame, let's pretend it's unactionable. That's being obtuse.

You mean you actually wait until there is a suspicion of impairment? You do not take invasive actions without probable cause? How foolish of your department to not test every person who walks in the door at the beginning of every single shift!

I am not going to make a big deal about the stupidity of U.S. drug laws, but I am not that impressed with a society that makes stupid laws and then whines when those laws have disparate effects on separate groups within society.
Now you've digressed into idiocy. Your village called-they miss you.

[Hentor the Barbarian]

danceswithcats, I apologize if I missed this in the discussion that followed, but you opened by saying that National Standards were violated in the training incident, and that you don't want to minimize their role. However, you conclude that it was her demographic qualities that led to her death.

Can you resolve these assertions for me? How is it clear that it was her characteristics and not the violations of standards that led to her death? How do you not want to minimize them, yet also leave them out of your conclusion about what led to her death?

What standards were violated? Could they have led to the death of the fittest candidates as well?

[danceswithcats]

danceswithcats, I apologize if I missed this in the discussion that followed, but you opened by saying that National Standards were violated in the training incident, and that you don't want to minimize their role. However, you conclude that it was her demographic qualities that led to her death.

Can you resolve these assertions for me? How is it clear that it was her characteristics and not the violations of standards that led to her death? How do you not want to minimize them, yet also leave them out of your conclusion about what led to her death?

What standards were violated? Could they have led to the death of the fittest candidates as well?
In simple terms, FF Recruit Wilson did not pass the physical evaluation, period. She failed it not once, but twice. She was unable from a physical standpoint to perform skills necessary for the job description. As such, she shouldn't have been present at the burn evolution.

In previous training evolutions, FF Recruit Wilson had removed the mask of her SCBA in moments of stress, which is a safety violation. Part of being a professional firefighter is working as a member of team. If an individual exhibits behaviors which are potentially injurious to themselves, and cannot maintain appropriate demeanor, they also pose a risk to other members of the team. She failed to demonstarate that ability, and as such should not have been present at the burn evolution.

The linked report in my OP is 121 pages, plus 19 appendices. I did not wish my OP to be overly long. You are free to review the linked documents. Could the fittest candidate have escaped? That calls for a guess on my part, but I will answer, yes.

One cannot conclude, with absolute certainty, that even the fittest individual(s) will escape every fire scenario. That presents a logical impossibility. What the fire service has done is to establish baselines of training, physical health, and conditioning such that if followed, will result in safe operations in service to the public for the majority of the time.

Fire suppression cannot be made risk free. The risk is managed to an acceptable level by proper training, appropriate equipment, and personal evaluation. The latter part is what wasn't done.

Hopefully that addresses your query.

[tomndebb]

My basic homework would be what, you smarmy fuck? Breaking into City Hall and rifling through the file cabinets? :rolleyes: Well, you could simply see whether any reporter has actually done that work for you. We have clear evidence that a person who failed to pass a physical--twice--was permitted to stay in the program. There has to be a person, a real live human being, who failed to send Ms. Wilson packing after each failed physical test. I would hope that the Baltimore news agencies whould be setting up a major hue and cry to discover that person and to then determine whether that person acted on his or her own initiative or under orders and, if under orders, whose. Perhaps the news people in Baltimore prefer to take your approach of simply moaning aloud that bad things happen without being concerned to discover the responsible party. (And while you have expressed a clear antipathy to the mayor, your insistence that you do not have access to records the mayor did not keep seems to be simply a way to dump the problem at the mayoral mansion without considering other possible agents.)


Because there is no smoking gun, no absolute final individual upon whom we can pin the blame, let's pretend it's unactionable. That's being obtuse.I have not pretended that the problem is not actionable and I think you are silly for pretending that I have. I have simply pointed out that there is, indeed, a final, (or, perhaps, initial) individual who is clearly to blame for Ms. Wilson continuing in a program in violation of department standards. Identifying that actual agent to discover whether it was a personal decision or one that came down from higher up will go a long way to ensuring that the practice is stopped while making vague grumblings about a years-old mayoral decision is little more than RO.


Now you've digressed into idiocy. Your village called-they miss you.So, just to be clear: because I actually believe that the city of Baltimore (or the state of Maryland) should examine why rules are being flouted--because regardless whether the physical standards had been maintained or lowered, Ms. Wilson was permitted to remain in the program in violation of some regulation while failing those standards, (otherwise there would be no "failure" associated with her performance)--I am an idiot, while you display intelligence and sagacity for wringing your hands and pretending that a decision to lower written standards is the culprit behind permitting a person to continue in violation of remaining physical standards.
(I would suggest that I am not the idiot in this situation.)

[Klaatu]

Sweet fucking Og, Tom, if it was known who actually said "Let's lower the standards so Racheal Wilson will be allowed to pass and become a firefighter" don't you think we would be actively Pitting that person or persons?

What is your fucking mission here? We can't take issue with this unless we have A Named Suspect? Dude, you are nitpicking for bullshit.

We don't need to know who the fuck ever authorized her advancement to be able to say it was a bad decision.

Who fucking cares if we don't know this yet. What is your fucking point related to the OP?

[The King of Soup]

God bless Racheal Wilson and everyone else who asks to sacrifice their lives in order to save others. God damn those who would attempt to sweep this example of bravery and altruism under the rug of long-discredited racial stereotypes.

Anybody else read the report the OP cited?

In enumerating the reasons for Wilson's death, it cited some fifty violations of NFPA standards (without boring anyone, let it just be said, the fire department had to be called in to respond to the fire department's own training exercise), including the issuing of substandard equipment to Wilson just before she was ordered to enter a burning structure. Of the fifty different problems, Wilson's lack of physical fitness constituted one of them. Strangely, the physical fitness problem stems not from a recent lowering of standards, but from the fact that the physical test, developed several years ago, has never been validated and so cannot be enforced. Given the almost exclusively white-male administration and hiring of the BCFD, it seems unlikely that this policy was developed in order to favor new minority applicants, as opposed to, say, old white firefighters.

There is no indication that Wilson would have failed either the written or background test now or in the old form. There is no indication that the physical test was designed to favor minority applicants. There is evidence that the Baltimore Fire Department has historically favored whites, and that recently the department has been criticized for not hiring minorities, and that as a response the department hired a black woman trainee and killed her. The truly delusional among us seem to take this as an indictment of minority applicants for public-safety work. Oh, well.

[tomndebb]

What is your fucking mission here?I asked a simple question for my own information in post #6. Bibliocat responded to my question with some information, then expressed a personal opinion. I responded in post #12 that I was not challenging the opinion expressed, then noted that I was still curious regarding the facts of the situation.

Following that, danceswithcats came screaming back into the thread hurling invective at me because I dared to ask a question instead of simply joining in all the Recreational Outrage.
Note that I have made no effort to tell anyone else that they were out of line to be upset. Had I been provided the answer to my question, I'd have wandered off informed. Had I been ignored, I'd have wandered off under the assumption that the question did not yet have an answer. Either way, I have not denigrated anyone else's Recreational Outrage nor have I asserted a claim that such outrage should follow some path determined by me. OTOH, if the RO participants are not able to answer the quesation I asked, (entirely likely, since the story may not yet be old enough to have become the object of a thorough investigation), they are perfectly welcome to maintain a dignified and honest silence on the topic rather than resorting to expressing silly rage and personal condemnations toward me just because I asked a question.

[Hentor the Barbarian]

Hopefully that addresses your query.Not really. Your answer seemed more to pirouette repeatedly away from a direct response. I found The King of Soup's response to be much more direct and forthright. Seems to me like you left a great deal out of your OP and continued to leave it out when asked specifically about it.

But I'm so very glad you didn't want at all to minimize any of those other reasons for the incident.

[BiblioCat]

There is evidence that the Baltimore Fire Department has historically favored whites, and that recently the department has been criticized for not hiring minorities, and that as a response the department hired a black woman trainee and killed her. There have been plenty of minorities in the Baltimore City FD - it was just that in 2004 they had a class that happened to be all-white. The minorities that passed the written test that time could not pass the background check or drug test.
The response was not to 'hire a black woman.' The response was to change the testing and admissions process. They re-wrote the written exam (they made it easier), and loosened the requirements on background checks.
When it comes time to actually select recruits for each new class, rather than just look at written test scores, agility test scores, physical fitness and background, they try to make up a class that is 'racially diverse.' It's no secret that they pride themselves on the diversity of their classes.
Racheal Wilson had failed the agility test TWICE, and yet somehow got in - and no, tomndebb I don't who to blame and I don't know how it happened. My guess is that she was pushed through and someone let her slide into a spot, all in the name of racial diversity.

[casdave]

I just can't imagine how she passed the basic medical examination.

192 pounds at 5'4" ?

Now that is some overweight for a female.

If perhaps she had shown a reduction in weight and an improvement in performance over some time, then maybe she was in with a reasonable chance, but someone who does not address such a basic problem that is crucial to success in a particular field is simply not the sort of person that has the personal attributes to deal with the kninds of stress this work will bring.

This is not a fattism issue, its about looking at yorself and assessing your capabilities, and doing what it takes to meet the requirements by addressing the issue, not avoiding it and lowering standards.

No matter how much some folk desperately want to achive certain things in life, it a fact that they never will, and in this case she was never ever going to make it - she didn't have what it takes.

This should have been recognised long ago and she should have been given an ultimatum, "do the following or leave"

[Waenara]

I just can't imagine how she passed the basic medical examination.

192 pounds at 5'4" ?

Now that is some overweight for a female.

If perhaps she had shown a reduction in weight and an improvement in performance over some time, then maybe she was in with a reasonable chance, but someone who does not address such a basic problem that is crucial to success in a particular field is simply not the sort of person that has the personal attributes to deal with the kninds of stress this work will bring.

This is not a fattism issue, its about looking at yorself and assessing your capabilities, and doing what it takes to meet the requirements by addressing the issue, not avoiding it and lowering standards.While she definitely wasn't fit enough to be a firefighter (as she didn't pass the standardized physical test), I don't think you can deduce simply from her weight that she was fat.

Athletes often have an overweight or even obese BMI, as muscle weighs more than fat. When I was in university I was a trainer/first aid person for several sports teams (hockey, rugby, football and others), and I've known many college athletes who would be considered overweight if you only looked at height/weight, but they're obviously in fantastic shape.

[Trunk]

While she definitely wasn't fit enough to be a firefighter (as she didn't pass the standardized physical test), I don't think you can deduce simply from her weight that she was fat.

Athletes often have an overweight or even obese BMI, as muscle weighs more than fat. When I was in university I was a trainer/first aid person for several sports teams (hockey, rugby, football and others), and I've known many college athletes who would be considered overweight if you only looked at height/weight, but they're obviously in fantastic shape.
Come on.

A linebacker at 6'1" 240 is one thing.

5'4" 192. Female. Not a football player. That's a tub of goo.

Still, I think the OP is sort of unfair.

As another guy said, there were 50 safety violations at the scene that day. To pick out the fact that she was unfit, and that that was because of affirmative action is indicative of an agenda.

It would be like if a health care advocate was blaming McDonald's for her death because she was so heavy.

These training exercises are supposed to be more controlled.

If she hadn't passed the agility test and couldn't handle a hose, someone with experience with these test-burns should have realized you don't send her up to the third floor, if you send her in at all.

She's just a recruit, and wants to be a firefighter, so I can forgive her choice to go in. She can't be insubordinate. But, someone with a history and knowledge of fighting fires HAS to recognize the danger of letting her go in there.

Of course, the guy whose job it was to oversee was out that day and the guy in charge, well, this wasn't his job.

Maybe they become ungauarded because this has't happened in a while, but it seems to point to a culture of complacency.

So, basically, I find it much easier to blame the stupid, white men who were in charge of her training. . .the chief and the exercise supervisor.

[danceswithcats]

Thank you, Klaatu. You read and clearly understood why I was taking issue with the posts by our dear mod. Nitpicking bullshit.

Sorry for hurting your feelings with my hurled invective, Tom. The Pit is a place for occasional harsh talk. Man up, would ya?

I've read every article I can find on the topic, and had an individual or group been named, it would have been in the OP or a followup post.

As to the Mayor, she is the Chief Executive of the City, and is therefore, ultimately responsible for what happens on her watch. If she was aware of a potentially injurious policy, be it written or unwritten, then she is directly culpable. If she was unaware of said policy, she is deficient by way of ignorance.

For the sake of information, casdave, it's important to point out that a baseline physical and a physical agility test are two different things. NFPA 1582, Medical Requirements for Firefighters, is a screening process to determine if you have a preexistent condition which should disqualify you from firefighting. Fail that, and you shouldn't be a firefighter. Next is an agility test, to gauge your actual conditioning. Fail that, and you shouldn't be a firefighter. Improve, try again, and pass? Good on ya.

Sorry you feel the OP is unfair, Trunk. Let me try to state this a different way. There can be the most egregiously dangerous training evolution set up, but if I disallow you from participating because you're not capable, you won't get hurt. You're right, I do have an agenda. Every year in the US we bury ~ 100 firefighters (combination of career+volunteer). 84 line of duty deaths have been reported to the USFA for 2007 as of last Wednesday. The single greatest killer is sudden cardiac events. A 30 year study by the NFPA shows that despite an overall reduction in firefighter fatalities, cardiac events are still number one, claiming ~ 45%. Although I am not a physician, it's reasonable to state that an individual in poor physical condition is more likely to suffer a cardiac event than one who is fit. If you're not qualified, but we don't let you participate, we won't have to bury you. It's that simple.

[tomndebb]

Hurt my feelings? My feelings are never hurt because other posters lack reading comprehension. :D

[Fir na tine]

Danceswithcats, I've been following this thread and the various threads over at firehouse.com

From everything I read in the NFPA report it's no better than 50-50 than even a fully fit FF would have made it out of that evolution alive. The exercise was set up as a killer and it succeeded. I suspect the Chief will be the next one shitcanned and it wouldn't surprise me to see some criminal indictments arise out of this mess. Very similar to the situation in upstate New York (Lairdsville) a few years ago.

[picunurse]

Article from the Baltimore Examiner (http://wbal.com/news/story.asp?articleid=62315) 8/24/2007, for what it's worth.

[RedSwinglineOne]

Danceswithcats, I've been following this thread and the various threads over at firehouse.com

From everything I read in the NFPA report it's no better than 50-50 than even a fully fit FF would have made it out of that evolution alive....
I'm not sure I would agree. Wilson made it to a window, but was unable to get out.

Wenger stated that once he assisted Cisneros out of the building, Wilson came to the window and told him she needed to get out. The window sill was 41 inches from the floor and Wenger recalled having to pull himself up in order to get out. Wilson, at five feet, four inches, was smaller in height than Wenger who appears to be at least six feet tall, so she was having difficulty getting through the window. He reached in the window and tried to pull Wilson out by the harness of her breathing apparatus, which was the same method he used to remove Cisneros. Wenger appears to have been able to lift or pull her torso, head, and upper extremities out of the window, but was unable to move her enough to clear her lower extremities. He asked her if she could help him and she replied that she could not help, as she was burning up and could not take the heat. Wilson was wearing the face piece of her breathing apparatus at that time.
At least three others made it out the same window as Wilson. Two of them were of similar height, but less weight.
Paramedic Cisneros and FPA Strawsburg were both similar in height to Wilson, as Cisneros is five feet, three inches tall, and Strawsburg is five feet, four inches, the same as Wilson. Their weights, however, differ from Wilson, as they are approximately 36 to 57 pounds lighter. This is not meant to imply that Wilson’s weight was a factor, but Cisneros and Strawsburg were removed through the window with minimal assistance, whereas it took at least four firefighters to rescue Wilson.
Bolding mine.

[The King of Soup]

This is getting to be either more or less than reality-based.

DancesInABibCat both see the situation in an astonishing way. They see lowered standards on a written test and less rigor in a background check, which may have been (it still hasn't been proven) a device to increase the numbers of minority trainees, and they look for ill effects which they can blame generically on efforts to include minorities. In this case, the "problem" is the tragic death of a black woman who may have been physically unfit to train as a firefighter, which shortcoming contributed to her death in a complete fiasco of a training exercise that went so wrong that the fire department had to call the fire department.

Hmm. No evidence that Ms. Wilson could not have passed the original written test and background check. If she was favored unfairly, it was because she was given a pass on the physical/agility tests. Now, let's try to think. The physical/agility tests were not adjusted in order to accommodate minorities. Okay, in some people's minds, they were, but let's have some sympathy: someone will eventually realize that this theory explains the pathetic underrepresentation of african-americans in professional sports, and a clash with reality may ensue.

Of course, the easy pass on the physical/agility tests had nothing to do with minority recruitment, and the report cited in the OP makes that clear. Which means that Ms. Wilson's death was due to her lack of agility (and 49 other reasons), but not to Baltimore's race politics or attempts at affirmative action. So, basically, the OP is a crock, conflating the assumption of racial politics behind a lowering of some standards with a feigned horror at a tragedy that resulted from unenforced but completely different standards, where the laxity benefitted (if anyone) an older white majority.

So, this pitting is a very poorly reasoned attempt to find fault with efforts to increase minority hiring in public-safety jobs in Baltimore. There's a lot of this sort of thing up there, I hear.

[crowmanyclouds]

Not really. Your answer seemed more to pirouette repeatedly away from a direct response. I found The King of Soup's response to be much more direct and forthright. Seems to me like you left a great deal out of your OP and continued to leave it out when asked specifically about it.

But I'm so very glad you didn't want at all to minimize any of those other reasons for the incident.Hmmm, why does that sound familiar?

Why improve when you can sue? Maybe Johnny can't read cuz teacher has teh dumb. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=433837),
ahh, I remember now.

CMC fnord!

[Klaatu]

The problem is that a person who was clearly unfit to be a firefighter was allowed to continue with training and ultimately died because SHE WAS UNFIT TO BE A FIREFIGHTER! PERIOD!

What is so hard to understand?

[Little Nemo]

The problem is that a person who was clearly unfit to be a firefighter was allowed to continue with training and ultimately died because SHE WAS UNFIT TO BE A FIREFIGHTER! PERIOD!

What is so hard to understand?Nothing. I agree with that. It's how one person's death is spun into evidence that "ethnic diversity" kills people that I have issues with.

[Klaatu]

I don't think anyone is saying that in the broad sense ethnic diversity kills people, only that perhaps in this particular case, the pursuit of ethnic diversity resulted in the death of an unqualified applicant.

[Hentor the Barbarian]

I don't think anyone is saying that in the broad sense ethnic diversity kills people, only that perhaps in this particular case, the pursuit of ethnic diversity resulted in the death of an unqualified applicant.Well, 49 other things, and that.

[Trunk]

I don't think anyone is saying that in the broad sense ethnic diversity kills people, only that perhaps in this particular case, the pursuit of ethnic diversity resulted in the death of an unqualified applicant.
Except I'm not saying that at all.

To view this as a product of an attempt to increase diversity at all, is to simply declare one's conservative agenda.

You see, I think it's easier to read this as white men (who were the primary overseers of the training exercise) actively trying to exterminate black people in ways that aren't illegal.

That's my agenda, so that's my interpretation of the facts!

[Nava]

Racheal Wilson, the FF cadet who was killed in the training exercise, was 5'4" and weighed 192 pounds.

1'60m and 86 kilos? SHIT!

I'm on record here many times saying that I don't believe BMI on its own is a good measure of whether you're fat or not, but Mom and me are that height and lemme tell you, 86 kg on a female at this height would be fat for anybody but the most extreme of bodybuilders.

I don't care whether it was a man, a woman or a penguin... she just wasn't in any kind of shape to be a firefighter. And she wasn't "slight" at all. I know many small people who are perfectly fine on the strength department, but she wasn't small - she needed to get in shape, which she wasn't at all.

[Nava]

Question[s]:

What if the job is to wrestle your fat ass to the ground during a domestic dispute and put cuffs on you? Or chase you down a dark alley and engage in a physical altercation and effect an arrest? Or kick down a door and bring down a kidnapper?


What if it means running 60 yards at full tilt with body armor and 75 pounds of gear on your back to save a wounded soldier? What about engaging in hand to hand combat with [an almost exclusively] male who aims to kill you?


What if it means shoveling asphalt into a hopper as you black top a road; or carry hundreds of pounds of material up a fully extended extension ladder while working as an iron worker? What about working as a hod carrier or roofer?

Does the rationale (of I don't care whether it's a man or a woman or a penguin) still apply?

(parenthesis in the quote added by me)

Yes, why shouldn't it?

Just last week a friend asked me "so, I take it you haven't been having that problem of getting paid less than male colleagues?" "I haven't, but I've been having the problem of being vetoed from certain lines of job or told I can't be an engineer because 'you're a girl!'"

People should be chosen on the basis of qualification, interest on the job... not on the basis of the color of their skin. Being an engineer requires me to use what's between my ears, not between my legs - yet I get judged by what's between my legs constantly.

[you with the face]

Hmm. No evidence that Ms. Wilson could not have passed the original written test and background check. If she was favored unfairly, it was because she was given a pass on the physical/agility tests. Now, let's try to think. The physical/agility tests were not adjusted in order to accommodate minorities. Okay, in some people's minds, they were, but let's have some sympathy: someone will eventually realize that this theory explains the pathetic underrepresentation of african-americans in professional sports, and a clash with reality may ensue.

Hello? I thought I was the only one trying to figure out what the hell race had to do with this, and I stayed out of the discussion until now because of this sincere bewilderment. I mean, if AA must absolutely be blamed on this woman's death, isn't it obvious that its gender-based AA?

I swear, whenever I see people ranting about how bad AA is and then immediately aim their fingers at black folks trying to cheat the system--and at the same time, turning a blind eye to what is most obvious and substantial--then I can't help think society is not ready to get rid of AA just yet. It's a sad statement, but it's the honest truth.

[Contrapuntal]

Hello? I thought I was the only one trying to figure out what the hell race had to do with this, and I stayed out of the discussion until now because of this sincere bewilderment. I mean, if AA must absolutely be blamed on this woman's death, isn't it obvious that its gender-based AA?Indeed. Note this quote from Warren Brown, the attorney for Wilson's family. (From picnurse's cite.)

Brown told WBAL News that the basis for the lawsuit will be the alleged violation of Wilson's civil rights by those within the fire department who did not want her to succeed.

Brown also characterized the conspiracy as a "gender feud." Brown does not think that Wilson's race played a role.

[Trunk]

Warren Brown is Baltimore's Johnny Cochrane. Anything he says should be taken as trying the case in the media. . .an attempt to sway the jury's opinion before it gets to court. That's not to say he's not right.

I was actually in jury selection for one of his trials.

Also, over the weekend, a guy who had been shot drove his SUV through a cement wall and into Warren's pool, and died there!

[xcheopis]

Come on.

A linebacker at 6'1" 240 is one thing.

5'4" 192. Female. Not a football player. That's a tub of goo.

Really? You have a picture available that shows her to be a "tub of goo"?

[Waenara]

Athletes often have an overweight or even obese BMI, as muscle weighs more than fat. When I was in university I was a trainer/first aid person for several sports teams (hockey, rugby, football and others), and I've known many college athletes who would be considered overweight if you only looked at height/weight, but they're obviously in fantastic shape.Come on.

A linebacker at 6'1" 240 is one thing.

5'4" 192. Female. Not a football player. That's a tub of goo. Actually, most of the hockey and rugby teams I worked with were women. Yes, women tend to have higher body fat % than men, even when they're high level athletes.

Frankly (WAG), I would think that (as long as they can pass the fitness requirements) a little extra weight might be a good thing for a female firefighter. One article earlier in the thread said this recruit had difficulty handling a hose, and that the force of the water almost (did?) knock her off her feet on at least one occasion. If you have a little more body mass then you have more inertia and it would be harder to be knocked down. They'd also be able to exert more force when doing something like knocking down a door.

By the way, searching for an example of female rugby players I looked on the Canadian National Team website (http://www.rugbycanada.ca/index.php?lang=en&page_id=117) - the player heights and weights listed seem similar to what I recall from university level players. Of course, players in certain positions seem to have certain body types, just like in football.

The recruit was 5'4" (160cm) and 190lbs (86kg). Her weight is comparable to several players on this rugby team (and some are heavier), although she is about 10-15cm shorter than most of the players listed below.

Examples from the womens rugby team:

180cm, 85kg
178cm, 90kg
173cm, 87kg
(no height listed), 93kg
178cm, 86kg
175cm, 95kg
168cm, 84kg
178cm, 98kg

[Trunk]

Okay, so here are the BMI's of your rugby team. . .

180cm, 85kg 26.2
178cm, 90kg 28.4
173cm, 87kg 29.1
178cm, 86kg 27.1
175cm, 95kg 31.0
168cm, 84kg 29.8
178cm, 98kg 30.9

And the BMI of our fire fighter:

160cm, 86kg 33.6

So, not only is she almost 10% higher than the HIGHEST athlete you have listed there. She's well into the obese range. She's about 20% higher than most of them. And, as has been widely reported, BMI is unnaturally high for the atheletic.

Using BMI for athletes can overestimate their level of body fat because muscle is denser than fat and weighs more. Therefore, an athlete's body fat can be normal or even low, but the person may have a high BMI. This does not mean that they are unhealthy or overweight. In fact, a number of gold medal winning athletes at the Olympics would be considered obese based solely on their BMI.

For instance, here (http://bmi.emedtv.com/bmi/bmi-for-athletes.html).

And, we're talking RUGBY players. A sport where having a lot of mass, and strong thick thighs is a benefit. She's has a higher BMI than every single one of them!

And, she has failed her agility tests for fire fighting, so I think we can pretty fairly conclude that she's not exactly athletic. Not that those are easy, I'm sure, but they're not making the Canadian National Rugby Team either.

I don't blame this woman. I blame people who should have known better who let her into a burning building.

I've been 5'5", 175 before. I'm a man and I could do about 2 pull-ups. There's no way a 5'4" 192 pound woman could haul herself out through a window, if the need arose.

[Hentor the Barbarian]

And, she has failed her agility tests for fire fighting, so I think we can pretty fairly conclude that she's not exactly athletic. Conversely, if I read the material in the OP right, she apparently completed four of the five stations of the agility test, and failed the "tower walk" by 10 seconds, so it doesn't sound exactly like she was a "tub of goo", either.

[Trunk]

Conversely, if I read the material in the OP right, she apparently completed four of the five stations of the agility test, and failed the "tower walk" by 10 seconds, so it doesn't sound exactly like she was a "tub of goo", either.
I'm sorry.

Let's go over this again.

5 foot. 4 inch.

192.

BMI 33.6

Can't pass the agility test.

photo (http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/local/baltimore_city/bal-firerecruit-pg,0,5705594.photogallery?index=14)

Perhaps we differ on "tub of goo".

Use whatever word you want for it.

Go have at look at that rugby site, too. Waenara seemed to pick out the heaviest, shortest women on the team.

This woman is more obese than everyone on the Canadian Women's Rugby Team. Not the Jamaican 4X100 relay team. The Canadian Women's Rugby Team. Before the 2000 Olympics, they cut a moose because it was too small.

[Waenara]

Go have at look at that rugby site, too. Waenara seemed to pick out the heaviest, shortest women on the team.To be fair, I just picked them based on weight (about 85kg or over) and only skipped those who were very tall (30cm or more taller than our recruit) so that it wouldn't be comparing apples to oranges. The only reason I picked the national team was because I couldn't easily find height/weight stats online for lower level teams (club or university).

Also, I actually know one of those players (the one with the highest BMI on the list I gave), and she was almost exactly the same build when I knew her in high school and university. Rugby isn't a huge sport with professional full-time atheletes. National team members are picked from lower level club teams, which they still play for, and the athletes don't play rugby or train full-time.

Again, I'm not trying to say that this firefighter recruit was actually in elite-athlete-level shape - just that you can't conclude she wasn't only based on her BMI. She didn't quite meet all the physical tests, but she came quite close and there's a big difference between "very close to firefighter material" and "tub of goo."

[danceswithcats]

Danceswithcats, I've been following this thread and the various threads over at firehouse.com

From everything I read in the NFPA report it's no better than 50-50 than even a fully fit FF would have made it out of that evolution alive. The exercise was set up as a killer and it succeeded. I suspect the Chief will be the next one shitcanned and it wouldn't surprise me to see some criminal indictments arise out of this mess. Very similar to the situation in upstate New York (Lairdsville) a few years ago.
Just to make things clear, the NFPA did not participate in the incident investigation. BATF and USFA personnel were involved in the investigation. NFPA standards were refererenced in appendices.

It's your judgement that a qualified firefighter had no better than a 50-50 chance. The evidence shows that everyone, excepting one, whose lack of qualifications I continue to cite was able to exit the burn evolution.

[BiblioCat]

She didn't quite meet all the physical tests, but she came quite close and there's a big difference between "very close to firefighter material" and "tub of goo."No, she didn't come close to being firefighter material. While she wasn't exactly a 'tub of goo,' she was out of shape, unable to pass the agility test, and was having problems in the academy. What they call the 'tower walk' is what I'm guessing Baltimore County calls the 'tower climb.' It involves carrying a fully loaded medical bag up a set of stadium steps (the test is given at the fairgrounds - you climb the grandstand stairs). It comes after doing CPR for five minutes straight, a 30-foot ladder climb and a 175-pound dummy drag. The dummy is dressed in full turn-out gear, so it actually weighs about 225.

I've taken the agility test for the Baltimore County FD twice (to be an EMT) and passed it both times. The one for the city isn't that much different.
Here's (http://www.co.ba.md.us/Agencies/fire/recruitment/agility.html) a link to the agility test required for Baltimore County*.
It's really not that hard, but you have to be in reasonably good shape to do it. Each section is timed, and your overall time is also calculated. You're not allowed to run between stations. If you have to stop and catch your breath between stations, it counts against you.

It was also documented that FF Recruit Wilson also had a tendency for removing her face piece in times of stress. This is completely unacceptable. Her instructors were aware of this and allowed her to continue in the academy. In past years, recruits have been let go for such things.
She was unable to hoist herself up and out a window, and fellow firefighters were unable to pull her up, even with her assistance.
She was also unable to hold a hoseline. I'll be the first to admit that nozzle reaction (the kickback from water pressure) is hard to handle, but you get used to it, and learn to compensate for it. The first few times I held a charged hoseline, it wasn't too bad, but those times were just practice. The first time I sprayed water on live fire in the burn building, I nearly got knocked back on my ass. I was lucky to have a partner who knew I might have trouble and held me up.
The fact that she had so much trouble in different areas should have thrown up all kinds of red flags to the instructors and Recruit Wilson herself, but for some reason, she was allowed to continue in the class.

* To get into the Baltimore County Fire Department, you come out of the academy as an EMT-I and then 'bridge over' as a firefighter after a 2-year probationary period, if you choose to do so. In Baltimore City, you come out of the academy as a Firefighter/Paramedic, ride mainly on the medic at first, and after IIRC, 2 years, you can choose either medic or suppression.

[Miller]

So, there were fifty safety violations here? Were they all motived by a "pursuit of ethnic diversity?" Because if they fucked up in forty nine non-ethnic-diversity-pursuing-ways, it seems reasonable to assume that the fiftieth fuck-up (keeping an obviously unqualified person on the force) was similarly colorblind. I mean, the whole point is that they violated their own procedures here, right? It's not like they officially removed the rule about not removing your faceplate, right? Someone just decided to ignore it. Maybe because Wilson was black. Or maybe because they were just too lazy or stupid to do anything about it. With forty nine other safety violations, it sounds like there was stupid to spare in this department.

[Waenara]

BiblioCat - please don't misunderstand me, I'm not saying that Wilson shouldn't have been kicked out of the firefighting class. I've made that disclaimer in every post I made in this thread. Clearly, Wilson had problems in several areas of the training, some of which weren't physical-fitness related (e.g. face mask removal).

The only issue I was addressing in my earlier posts was the assertion that she was a "tub of goo" because of her body mass index. Yes, she failed the tower walk - but she failed by ten seconds. While that's definitely enough to decide to kick her out of training, I'm just saying that she seems to have had good fitness - just not good enough for a firefighter. I don't think it's a binary situation where the only possible fitness levels are "hard" vs. "goo". But, yes, "hard" is required to be a firefighter.

[danceswithcats]

The following letter was sent to the Baltimore Sun, which did not print it in its entirety:

This is the entire letter written by Bruce Snyder regarding the death of recruit Rachel Wilson. It is being posted at his request to show it in its full content.

Fire recruit death identifies larger issue

The death of Racheal Wilson while tragic underscores another greater issue that has remained untouched by those investigating the Fire Department’s negligence. (Deadly neglect at Fire Academy” Aug. 21). If the fingers of blame are to be pointed, then all avenues of culpability must be explored.

The unspoken truth is that Ms Wilson should have never been hired as a firefighter or paramedic to begin with due to her limited physical capability. At 5’4” and 192lbs. She was not only short in height, but also tremendously overweight as well as over fat in body mass. The fire service is a physically demanding job that requires not only strength, but also muscular endurance and good cardio pulmonary stamina. It is a task-oriented career that can be very difficult for members in prime physical condition, much less someone who is obese by all current health and fitness standards.

Across the nation, fire departments are being pressured to hire recruits based on a gender and cultural diversity policy, regardless of whether the individual is capable of physically doing the job for which they are hired. Federal guidelines and reviews dictate nationwide hiring policies, and departments feel hamstrung to meet minority demographics. This issue of compromising standards is discussed at fire stations around the country every week as jurisdictions continue to hire members who do not adequately pass the hiring agility standards. This is not a racial or sex based issue as much as it is about quality of service when the emergency call comes in. Brother and sister firefighters, or paramedic personnel do not care about age, skin color, hair length, or political affiliations, as long as the person riding next to them on the fire engine can do the required job.

Unfortunately not everyone is genetically gifted in adequate size and strength to be a firefighter, and no amount of academy training can greatly alter that fact. As such, Ms Wilson no more belonged in turnout gear, than she would have wearing shoulder pads and an NFL jersey. All of this does not excuse the mistakes made by the academy during the live burn exercise. However as the investigation identifies, Ms Wilson was unable to hold a hose line or even assist herself in exiting the room. Additionally, removing ones face-piece is a prime indicator of claustrophobia, and poor aerobic conditioning. This begs the larger question of her ability to rescue anyone else if need be whether it is another firefighter or a citizen. A medic or firefighter incapable of doing the job for any reason is a liability to other members as well as the public they serve.

Lets not forget the purpose of recruit school is to train members how to realistically do the job, and live fire training situations are a crucial key factor in assessing one’s capability. The other purpose of the academy training is to weed out those individuals who cannot do the job, not only for the sake of others, but for themselves as well. This issue has been researched for over 20 years, and the current political position of many jurisdictions seems to be a ‘no student left behind’ policy for academy classes. Graduate all of the students because it is the PC thing to do, and then let nature take its course in the station environment.

Its past time to look into this larger issue of biased hiring practices for political correctness against practical application. Ask any firefighter to speak ‘off the record’ and you will hear this echoed across the city, state, and country. Racheal Wilson’s death was tragic, and yet quite preventable for many reasons other than ignored NFPA standards. Unfortunately, no one in official FD positions, or politically connected, wants to address this issue in public.


Bruce Snyder

A 26- year career firefighter with Baltimore City & County, a former recruit academy instructor, and a certified firefighter fitness trainer & hiring standards architech.

Firefighter Snyder promotes ongoing job specific agility task analysis and testing, as well as fitness programming for incumbent fire department personnel. The taxpaying citizens deserve to have only qualified, certified, and capable people serving their needs.

[danceswithcats]

www.baltimoresun.com/news/opinion/bal-ed.fire23aug23,0,5061241.story

baltimoresun.com
Fitness for duty
August 23, 2007

The Baltimore Fire Department failed recruit Racheal M. Wilson long before she entered a burning rowhouse in a training exercise. It accepted her into a cadet class in 2006, when it probably shouldn't have. Officials overlooked her failings on an agility test and sent her into a live-burn exercise when she apparently wasn't ready to handle it.

An independent investigation of Ms. Wilson's death reaffirmed that many mistakes were made during the training exercise, but it raises new concerns about a firefighter's fitness for duty that shouldn't be ignored.

Ms. Wilson died in the Feb. 9 exercise after she was overcome by heat and smoke and couldn't climb out of a window to escape. A department probe found dozens of safety violations, which led to the firings of the academy director and two other officers and an overhaul of the training-safety division.

But the independent evaluation of the accident ordered by Mayor Sheila Dixon also suggests that Cadet Wilson may not have been ready to enter training. And the question that must be asked is why the department would admit Ms. Wilson after she performed poorly on agility tests.

Firefighting is a demanding, dangerous job, and its newest recruits should be in the best shape, physically and mentally. If not then, when? The department should have an overall fitness standard; resistance to one, either by officials or firefighters, is unacceptable considering the rigors of the job.

Fire Chief William J. Goodwin Jr. rejects the suggestion that Ms. Wilson died because of problems related to her performance on one aspect of a five-part agility test. The safety lapses and mistakes on the fire scene that day - some very basic - were responsible for her death, he says, and we don't disagree.

The department that performed so poorly that day, he says, isn't the one he was raised in. But it is the agency he commands. The investigative report offers a chance to revisit the fitness issue. Can seriously overweight firefighters do their job ably and safely?

The report by Howard County Deputy Chief Chris Shimer also harshly criticized a view in the department that "recruits must be exposed to heavy fire conditions in order to be adequately prepared for the field." That literal trial by fire sounds more like a hazing rite than a professional firefighter's code.

Chief Goodwin should ask Mr. Shimer to return in three months and undertake a performance audit to see whether policy changes ordered by the chief are being followed and the firefighter culture has improved. The work at the Fire Department is not done.

The above is an op-ed piece from the Baltimore Sun.

[you with the face]

Still wondering why race is subject of this rant and not gender.

[BiblioCat]

Still wondering why race is subject of this rant and not gender.Because, as stated on the first page, Baltimore City now strives for 'ethnically diverse' classes for its fire academy, rather then hiring the best applicants. This happened after one class in 2004 just happened to be all-white. It's not like BCFD had been hiring just white applicants all along, this was a one-time anomaly.
Nevermind the fact that that particular class had high test scores and excellent agility test scores, and the fact the the minorities that did apply either failed the written test or the background or drug screening, the fact remained that people were outraged.
"An all-white group of firefighters in a city that is mostly black? This won't do! Hire more black firefighters! Hire black women! Rewrite the test so they can pass it! Adjust the agility test so the women can get in! Lower the standards on the background check! Give them a months' notice before doing any drug testing!"

It's fucking ridiculous.
When your house is on fire, are you going to be counting the firefighters to see if there's a proportionate mix of white, black, Mexican, Asian and Martian?
When a loved one has a medical emergency and the ambulance pulls up, do you really care if the medics are the same race or if they're 'racially balanced'?

It's mainly about race, but there is a little bit of gender thrown in, and I'm female. She had no place being there. When I took Firefighter 1, we lost a lot of people in the first few weeks when they realized they couldn't handle it.

WAG: The sad part is, and I'm just guessing here, Racheal Wilson may have just wanted to be a paramedic and not a firefighter. As I stated in an earlier post, in Baltimore City you come out of the academy as a firefighter/paramedic. Everyone has to take some time riding the medic. After what I believe is a 2-year probationary period, you choose where you want to stay, medic or suppression, but you're required to keep the skills up in both areas.

[you with the face]

Because, as stated on the first page, Baltimore City now strives for 'ethnically diverse' classes for its fire academy, rather then hiring the best applicants.

And as was stated in the article just posted by the OP:

Across the nation, fire departments are being pressured to hire recruits based on a gender and cultural diversity policy, regardless of whether the individual is capable of physically doing the job for which they are hired.

(bolding mine)

Gender has been given short shrift in this discussion. That's rather interesting (and baffling and troubling) to me since ranting about women failing to meet physical standards has been a time-honored tradition when it come to these kinds of discussion. Make me wonder why that changes when the woman in question is black? Suddenly, like magic, gender become a perfect non-issue. Race is seized upon because of course her failure to meet the standards has everything to do with meeting some damn racial quota. Couldn't be anything else, right? Like a woman being pressured to meet the same physical standards as a man and having a harder time of it.

[Little Nemo]

Still wondering why race is subject of this rant and not gender.It does seem like a strange disconnect. A woman dies during training, probably because she was overweight. And that's cited as evidence they shouldn't hire as many black people.

I can't help but suspect there's an "us and them" bias. There's people like us and people like them (which is everyone else). Ms Wilson was one of them. The fire department should avoid them and stick with us.

[kidchameleon]

And that's cited as evidence they shouldn't hire as many black people.

By whom?

[The King of Soup]

First of all, may I say, it is just so cool that applicants for public safety jobs, which are poorly-compensated and carry incredibly high risk, are so diverse that they can be criticized at the same time for being in both racial and gender minorities, even if it takes just one exceptional and exceptionally unlucky person to do so. The only explanation is the imminent onset of Utopia. Ms Wilson was an individual who was the victim of not only her racial and sexual shortcomings (whatever they may have been), but the brunt of the combined stupidity of white administrators who designed a test that had fifty-that's-right-count-them-fifty-I-really-can't-believe-this-did-you-see-the-number-fifty serious mistakes built into it, whether DancesWithAScatCoveredBible counts it or not.

The tests were not adjusted to admit overweight women. Black men were not involved in the problems created by the test's adjustments. People trying to blame any tragedy involving women, overweight persons, black persons, males, black overweight males, black overweight females, black overweight male or transgendered persons, or persons of indeterminate race and sex whom we suspect of being of a race or sex we might not like, can just wait a damn minute.

Because the claim that the pursuit of ethnic diversity contributed to even one death seems to be a bigoted lie.

[Little Nemo]

And that's cited as evidence they shouldn't hire as many black people.By whom?Well it's the title of the thread for example.

[danceswithcats]

For the hundredth fucking time, can you folks read?

I am NOT against black firefighters.
I am NOT against female firefighters.
I am NOT against black female, or female black firefighters.
I am NOT against any other fill in the blank firefighters.

I AM against lowering standards, so that people OF ANY COLOR OR GENDER get in to the fire department. Improve the candidate, don't reduce the standard.

I DO NOT want white males who cannot pass a physical agility test, a written test, or a criminal background check to join the fire department.

I guess I'm just a stupid white guy, but if I was running the Baltimore NAACP, or the Black Firefighter's Union, I'd champion keeping the standards high. I'd also start a grass roots program for teens and anyone who expressed an interest in Civil Service. I'd sit them down, work with the ones who had High School diplomas and prepare them for the written exam, get GED studies going for the people who had dropped out, and partner with some sports trainer (the Ravens or Orioles would surely help) to handle the agility aspect. Then, I'd proudly present a group of candidates who were ready to ace the written test and pass the physical, without any lowering of the standards.

Yessir, that makes me a racist.

[The King of Soup]

For the hundredth fucking time, can you folks read?
Yes. That's your problem: people read what you write, then read the relevant facts, then come to a conclusion about you. I'm sure you don't always come off quite so badly as you do here, but, unfortunately, here you are.

....I am NOT against black female, or female black firefighters.
Ah, but what about firefighting black-male fems, huh?

....I AM against lowering standards, so that people OF ANY COLOR OR GENDER get in to the fire department....
Yup, sure, yessir, youbetcha, except that:

--there's no evidence that any standards were lowered in order to pursue ethnic diversity;

-- there's no evidence that Ms. Wilson benefitted from the lowered standards;

--changes in the written and background tests had nothing whatever to do with Ms. Wilson's hiring and retention;

--the reason the physical tests didn't disqualify Ms Wilson has nothing to do with ethnic diversity and everything to do with the fact that the tests (several years old and not a factor in Baltimore's racial politics) weren't valid to begin with;

--easier physical requirements, as a means to accommodate minorities within the Baltimore City Fire Department, would certainly be news to the University of Maryland athletic department; and of course

--there's no link between Ms Wilson and lowered standards, between lowered standards and ethnicity, between ethnicity and city policy, between danceswithcats and sanity.

Basically, here's a thread that purports with no evidence to show that the pursuit of ethnic diversity led to a fire recruit's death. In fact, the quote in the OP does not exist on pages 90-94 of the final report, though that may be an honest error. But even if vindicated, there's a wide gap between the OP and the facts s/he presents.

....Yessir, that makes me a racist.
Oh, be fair. Noone's yet ventured an opinion as to what made you what you are -- whatever it may be.

[danceswithcats]

Well, King of Poop, you can continue to keep your fingers in your ears and la-la-la away the truth of what has transpired in Baltimore and many other major cities, but those of us in the fire service, career and volunteer, black and white, female and male, who have earned a position know differently.

You wouldn't want to speak with individuals of color who likewise resent the lowering of standards, because that doesn't fall in line with your Kool-Aid inspired belief, such as the piece by Mr. Barber which I cited at #13 on the first page.

[BrainGlutton]

Baltimore City caught hell several years ago for an all-white recruit class.

That is . . . astonishing. Considering the city's population (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltimore#Demographics) is only 31% white. Which is reflected in the makeup of the city government, IME (I've lived there). How did that situation ever arise?

[BiblioCat]

That is . . . astonishing. Considering the city's population (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltimore#Demographics) is only 31% white. Which is reflected in the makeup of the city government, IME (I've lived there). How did that situation ever arise?
Have you even read the thread? It was a one-time thing. Only a small percentage of minorities were able to pass the written test, and of those that did pass it, they were unable to pass background checks or drug testing.
The press got hold of the graduation photo and said, basically, "What's wrong with this picture?"

As I said a few posts back, when your house is on fire and the fire engine pulls up, are you going to be checking skin color and gender as the firefighters jump off the engine and start pulling hose and hooking up to a hydrant?

[Little Nemo]

That is . . . astonishing. Considering the city's population is only 31% white. Which is reflected in the makeup of the city government, IME (I've lived there). How did that situation ever arise?From what I've read, their recruitment method was to have firemen contact people to tell them upcoming tests. The fire department was apparently predominantly white so apparently they tended to recruit other white people. This doesn't indicate any racism on the part of the individual firemen but it did create a racial imbalance overall. The problem was addressed after 2004 and new procedures were created to get the word about the test out to a wider pool of applicants.Have you even read the thread? It was a one-time thing.And the death of a recruit was....?

It's funny how you're willing to excuse one one-time event but are insisting on a another one-time event indicates a widespread problem.

[BiblioCat]

From what I've read, their recruitment method was to have firemen contact people to tell them upcoming tests. No, that is not the only way that news of upcoming tests get out. It's announced on the Baltimore City Fire Department website, the Baltimore City website, and by announcements in the paper. All the city firehouses have applications and notices of test dates, too.

You want to be a firefighter? You find out HOW TO BECOME ONE. You go on-line, you go to a firehouse, you ask.

Yes, if you are a volunteer firefighter in one of the surrounding counties, you can find out about upcoming testing dates from a fellow firefighter maybe a few days earlier. It's not like it's some huge secret passed around that is kept hidden from the general public.
And yes, people who are already in a volunteer house have an advantage. Because they're already firefighters! They've taken Firefighter One (and maybe classes beyond that), they've had some real-world experience, and they know what's expected.

[Little Nemo]

No, that is not the only way that news of upcoming tests get out. It's announced on the Baltimore City Fire Department website, the Baltimore City website, and by announcements in the paper. All the city firehouses have applications and notices of test dates, too.Can you show me this was true prior to 2004? (And I could speculate on what kind of reception a black man gets when he shows up at an all-white fire company and says he like a test application.)

And as long as you're down there, let me hand you a shovel. What's your explanation for why all those black applicants either didn't take the test or failed the test or failed the background check?

[danceswithcats]

Can you show me this was true prior to 2004? (And I could speculate on what kind of reception a black man gets when he shows up at an all-white fire company and says he like a test application.)

And as long as you're down there, let me hand you a shovel. What's your explanation for why all those black applicants either didn't take the test or failed the test or failed the background check?

You and I both know that a website isn't going to display a line indicating "These contents have been unchanged since 2002". No one is going to call the Mayor's office to get a timeline regarding advertisment practices, assuming they could provide one.

You are free to speculate all you like, but gauging by your inference, you'd be wrong. This isn't Mississippi Burning. Personnel in fire stations consider themselves to be professionals, and comport themselves as such when dealing with the public. Black or white, male or female, the querying party would receive courtesy and their request would be attended to as expeditiously as the member was able. The people in my fire station would give the applicant any paperwork requested and answer any questions posed, if they knew the answer. If they couldn't answer, they would take the person's name and phone number, and forward same, along with the question to either me or the Fire Chief, and one of us would return the call within 48-72 hours.

Why didn't a black applicant take the test? Ask the applicant.
Why did the black applicant fail the test? Lack of preparation, most likely. See my answer above, regarding Civil Service testing prep.
Why did the black applicant fail the background check? This one's a stumper, but I'm gonna take a wild guess that it's because they were convicted of a violation of some law in Maryland, or elsewhere.

It's also worthy of note that you can substitute white for black in any of the above questions. No doubt some white applicants didn't pass the test, for the same reasons, and failed the background check, for the same reasons.

[The King of Soup]

Why Dances, you amaze me. King of Poop? It took a team of four-year-olds almost three minutes to come up with that epithet, given the original. You did it in less than two days. The courage which an intellect of that caliber must summon in order to champion any sort of written standardized test can only be characterized as admirable.

I must confess to the infrequent plugging of my ears, which provides relief from the ever-louder keyboard-pounding of a man (?), to whom facts and reason have yet again turned traitor, retreating to a comfortable redoubt composed of walls of irrational shrillness.

My eyes are wide open, however, to any possible (though at this point, sadly belated) connection between the pursuit of ethnic diversity and recruit Wilson's death. And still, (as for which the brief study of the OP's character and tactics that the thread provides hath prepared us) it does not come.

--No proof that the test changes benefitted certain ethnicities at the expense of others;

--No proof that the test changes were responsible for an admitted or retained recruit Wilson;

--No proof that Wilson's shortcomings were tolerated because of any preference for her ethnicity (and one more time, with feeling: what kind of a test writer decides to bias the test in favor of black Americans by weakening the physical strength and agility requirements?) rather than a bias for other groups whose faults her weaknesses happened to mimic;

--No proof that any of these, should they magically appear, explain Wilson's death better than any of the other forty-nine fuck-ups in the exercise that killed her;

--No proof, given the horribly mismanaged abortion of what should have been a straightforward exercise, that the leadership of the BCFD, presumably not the product of soft-hearted ideas about racial equality, should not be an indictment of the entire fire department and it's prior admissions process.

Finally, Dances horrifies us with the hint that he (?) actually made the cut as a fireman himself. Lord knows I've learned better than to ask him for proof that would satisfy anyone -- it would likely be futile. But, further, I won't ask because of the risk that this sentence might be true, and that would be too depressing.

A tragedy occurs, and fifty reasons that it happened are found. Dunces uses this finding to prove that a fifty-first, the goal of ethnic diversity, is to blame instead. Blaming it on space aliens would be as plausible, but the OP has no agenda against monsters from another world.

[BiblioCat]

A tragedy occurs, and fifty reasons that it happened are found. Dunces uses this finding to prove that a fifty-first, the goal of ethnic diversity, is to blame instead. Blaming it on space aliens would be as plausible, but the OP has no agenda against monsters from another world.Did you read the thread title? It was the pursuit of 'ethnic diversity' that was a contributing factor in the FF recruit's death. It wasn't the only factor; it was noted in the very first post that there were numerous screw-ups at the scene of the practice exercise.
The push for ethnic diversity within the FD was what got Racheal Wilson in the academy. Her physical condition should have excluded her. Her failure at the agility admissions test should have excluded her. Her propensity for removing her face piece and panicking at times of stress should have gotten her kicked out.
During the fatal incident, others were able to remove themselves from the situation (climbing out a window), and she was unable to do so, even with help.
She had no place being there.

[Little Nemo]

You are free to speculate all you like, but gauging by your inference, you'd be wrong. This isn't Mississippi Burning. Personnel in fire stations consider themselves to be professionals, and comport themselves as such when dealing with the public. Black or white, male or female, the querying party would receive courtesy and their request would be attended to as expeditiously as the member was able. The people in my fire station would give the applicant any paperwork requested and answer any questions posed, if they knew the answer. If they couldn't answer, they would take the person's name and phone number, and forward same, along with the question to either me or the Fire Chief, and one of us would return the call within 48-72 hours.Apparently the firemen I know are a lot different than the firemen you know. The firemen I know are like policemen or soldiers - they believe in group loyalty and how you have to trust your teammates literally with your life. The good side of this is their intense loyalty for each other and their willingness to risk their lives in service to others. But the bad side of this is that this attitude breeds a distrust of outsiders - which in all too many cases can turn into an attitude of distrusting people who are different. My experience has been that if these groups are forced to accept new people they will quickly learn that they're capable and will embrace them as part of the team - but they will still need to be pushed in over loud objections at the beginning.

[BiblioCat]

Apparently the firemen I know are a lot different than the firemen you know. The firemen I know are like policemen or soldiers - they believe in group loyalty and how you have to trust your teammates literally with your life. The good side of this is their intense loyalty for each other and their willingness to risk their lives in service to others. But the bad side of this is that this attitude breeds a distrust of outsiders - which in all too many cases can turn into an attitude of distrusting people who are different. Did you even read what he wrote? (How many times have I said that in this thread?)
If someone inquired at a firehouse about applications, they would receive courtesy and respect and get their inquiry handled as quickly as possible. That's the way it would be at my firehouse, also. Applications are not out for everyone to handle, but the name and number of the person who wanted one would be given to the appropriate member (the Recruitment and Retention Committee) as soon as possible.

And I know lots of firefighters, both career and volunteer. Yes, they believe in teamwork and backing each other up. This is something that is taught and reinforced all through class and practical exercises, and in real-life experiences. Everyone has a job, and they have to do that job. Not everyone gets to hold the hose. Some people have to drag hoseline and hook up to the hydrant. Some people wait till the fire's out and then go in and do salvage and overhaul. Sometimes all you get to do is direct traffic.
It's put into practice even more so on the EMS side. You have to work as a team with your partner. You have to learn to anticipate each other's moves.

I've never seen an overall attitude of distrusting outsiders.

[danceswithcats]

Apparently the firemen I know are a lot different than the firemen you know. The firemen I know are like policemen or soldiers - they believe in group loyalty and how you have to trust your teammates literally with your life. The good side of this is their intense loyalty for each other and their willingness to risk their lives in service to others. But the bad side of this is that this attitude breeds a distrust of outsiders - which in all too many cases can turn into an attitude of distrusting people who are different. My experience has been that if these groups are forced to accept new people they will quickly learn that they're capable and will embrace them as part of the team - but they will still need to be pushed in over loud objections at the beginning.No-the people I know are no different. We've already been exposed to and have admitted females and minorities. We accept them, so long as they meet the standard. New recruits are sent to county fire school, where they are expected to attend classes and pass the final written and practical exam. Candidates coming from another department have their credentials checked, and given that most examining facilitites test to a national standard, they are accepted as though they had tested here.

[Little Nemo]

Did you even read what he wrote?Yes I did.

[danceswithcats]

Why Dances, you amaze me. King of Poop? It took a team of four-year-olds almost three minutes to come up with that epithet, given the original. You did it in less than two days. The courage which an intellect of that caliber must summon in order to champion any sort of written standardized test can only be characterized as admirable.

You're the party who first chose to insult another by name alteration. If you dislike it, then don't engage.

You'd do well to take a cue from Little Nemo. Although the gentleman and I apparently agree to disagree, he's not being intentionally obtuse, nor is he being a jerk, for which I respect the man.

On the other hand, your posts are rife with linguistic excess, in a feeble attempt to demonstrate that you're intellectually my superior, which you have (a) failed to show, and (b) wouldn't be in any way, shape, or form germane to the thread.

Go back to the basement with your thesaurus, lad. The adults are conversing.

[The King of Soup]

You're the party who first chose to insult another by name alteration. If you dislike it, then don't engage.
Like it? I love it. Why wouldn't I? So far, you're losing badly. But it is childish, so I'll give it up, though it pains me because relinquishing childish games puts you at such a disadvantage.

You'd do well to take a cue from Little Nemo. Although the gentleman and I apparently agree to disagree, he's not being intentionally obtuse, nor is he being a jerk, for which I respect the man.
I don't know Little Nemo, but the fact that s/he manages to be polite in the face of ignorant bigotry, while admirable, isn't exactly binding on me. To be honest, I can easily do without the taint of being respected as a gentleman by the likes of you.

Meanwhile, neither you nor Bibliocat (who chastises me for not reading the thread but seems actually to wish I hadn't read through the sources presented as evidence) wants to answer the central objections, which have been presented, well, often enough without response. For example, how exactly did a change in written test and background check benefit overweight candidates, again? Oh, never mind.

I can do without the title of "intellectually superior to danceswithcats" -- it would be an embarrassment to be thought to have sought it. I put away my thesaurus long ago: I know too many words as it is.

The fact is, dunce, that your arguments make honest people puke and smart people laugh. When you encounter smart, honest people, they tend to do both and choke. This phenomenon is what you have been misinterpreting as "winning the argument."

[Hentor the Barbarian]

Go back to the basement with your thesaurus, lad. The adults are conversing.Please. You might keep up the argument that it was ethnic diversity that led to this woman's death.

You might even keep writing these dewey eyed posts that imply that firefighters are paragons of professional integrity far beyond the racism that might bring down lesser men.

But, as a word of advice, don't turn this into a "I'm smarter (or more mature) than The King of Soup." That one won't end well.

Please do help me to understand what makes the difference between the automatic tearful respect we should give to our firefighters, versus the ability to degrade this woman and mother of two who died while trying to become a firefighter. Why doesn't she deserve at least enough respect to avoid impugning her integrity and motivation, to say the least of calling her a tub of goo?

What kind of a man does that?

And why should she, on the most dubious of grounds, serve your political purposes of calling ethnic diversity into question?

[BiblioCat]

Please. You might keep up the argument that it was ethnic diversity that led to this woman's death.

...
Please do help me to understand what makes the difference between the automatic tearful respect we should give to our firefighters, versus the ability to degrade this woman and mother of two who died while trying to become a firefighter. Why doesn't she deserve at least enough respect to avoid impugning her integrity and motivation, to say the least of calling her a tub of goo?
I never called her that; I never degraded her memory, other than to say she was overweight and out-of-shape. It was Trunk who called her a "tub of goo."


Come on.

A linebacker at 6'1" 240 is one thing.

5'4" 192. Female. Not a football player. That's a tub of goo.
The Pitting is not Cadet Wilson - it's the Baltimore City Fire Academy, which lowered its admittance standards, and in this case completely disregarded them. Cadet Wilson DID NOT PASS the agility portion of the entrance exam, yet was allowed in anyway. She took it twice, and actually performed worse the second time, which means her physical condition had deteriorated.
She showed a tendency to violate safety standards, yet was allowed to stay in class. She was unable to perform basic tasks, such as holding a hoseline, yet was allowed to stay in class.
Whose fault is that? The leaders at the Academy, not Cadet Wilson's. It was their quest for an ethnically diverse class that was a contributing factor in her death. There were other screw-ups; that much is true. But Cadet Wilson should not have been there in the first place, and should have been removed from class after it became evident that she was having so much trouble.

[tomndebb]

Whose fault is that? The leaders at the Academy, not Cadet Wilson's. It was their quest for an ethnically diverse class that was a contributing factor in her death. And after all these days, we have still been shown not a single iota of evidence that it was a desire for ethnic diversity that let her in or allowed her to stay.

I can think of multiple reasons why she was permitted to stay in the program, but every one of them requires some human being to ignore actual regulations. No evidence has been porovided that the physical standards have been lowered, even though explicit claims regarding the written tests and background checks have been asserted. As long as every question regarding her placement is met with "ethnic diversity" without a single scrap of evidence that it actually played a part, you folks are going to continue to be beaten upon. I asked (fairly politely for the Pit) way back at the beginning of this trainwreck who was the person who did not throw her out?

Her presence might have been the result of a desire for ethnic diversity. OR, it might have been due to someone receiving money or someone falling for a sob story that she needed the job or an exchange of some commodity other than money. None of those scenarios require a bias toward racial diversity.

The decision might have been made at the class level or at the department level or at the municipal level. Without that information, all this is speculation.

Has no newspaper or TV station scanned the training roster to see whether a disproportionate number of black applicants are overweight? Was she the only out-of-shape trainee? (If so, that raises a number of other issues.) If she was not the only trainee out of shape, what are the racial proportions of the out-of-shape candidates? Surely these numbers can't be all that secret--any local news group could walk down to the gate on the first or last day of class and count the bodies, sorted by weight and race.

I have never claimed that racial preferences could not be at the base of the issue, but after all this time, no one has presented any evidence beyond explicit claims for written tests and background checks--neither of which have anything to do with physical stamina.

::: shrug :::

[danceswithcats]

Tell you what, Tom. Since you've been asking questions and hinting that the answers can't be that tough to find, why don't you provide them? Were I a news person, I'd have checked into this further to prove my point, as stated long ago.

Please show proof that the recruit class of which Racheal Wilson was a member consisted of only the top scorers in the written exam, that all of those persons successfully passed the physical agility test, and were free of prior criminal convictions above motor vehicle violations. Offer side by side for comparison the hiring standards present in 2004 and those of 2007, showing them to be identical.

I don't believe you'll be any more successful than I've been in ferreting out that information, but you may have avenues of which I'm not aware. Go for it.

[you with the face]

I don't believe you'll be any more successful than I've been in ferreting out that information, but you may have avenues of which I'm not aware. Go for it.

tom didn't start a thread with the intent to blame a point of speculation on a specific tragedy.

You did.

Thus, between the two of you, only you should be looking for evidence to support your claims.

It says a lot that investigators found that the fire department screwed up in about 50 different ways which led to the recruits death. And yet--because you can't be bothered to face those facts--you rant about the one factor (racial Affirmative Action) that was not shown to be causative or at play. And is it a coincidence that this one factor rather conveniently paints the fire department in a sympathetic, Jesse Jackson-brow-beaten light, while the other 50-some odd reasons indicate negligence and incompetence? I don't think it is a coincidence at all.

[tomndebb]

Tell you what, Tom. Since you've been asking questions and hinting that the answers can't be that tough to find, why don't you provide them? Were I a news person, I'd have checked into this further to prove my point, as stated long ago.Sorry. Your rant. Your unsupported asssertions--repeated ad nauseam with a lot of vitriol spilling over onto posters who asked polite questions.
Not my job to do your homework.

As to running down the scores for Ms. Wilson's class, they are really irrelevant to my question, (although not to your rant).

No one has provided evidence that Ms. Wilson's written scores were low. However, even if the physical test standards were lowered, (a point not entered into evidence), she failed those physical tests. Some person or agency has to have deliberately ignored failing test scores. As a professional in that industry in that region, I would expect you to be all over the press and the agencies demanding to know who actually did that, thus potentially jeopardizing your life the next time you answered a joint call. Instead, you simpy wanted to come vent to an anonymous audience that has no power to change the conditions in your region about a situation (deliberate, department-wide, lowered physical standards) for which you have inadequate evidence that it even exists.
Whatever.

Carry on.

[danceswithcats]

I think I finally understand.

Politically incorrect allegations shall not be made without incontrovertible evidence.

Un-PC allegations are subject to counterpoint based on nada, but are nonetheless trumped.

Gotcha.

[tomndebb]

Politically incorrect allegations shall not be made without incontrovertible evidence. Incontrovertible? You misspelled "some."

You have not provided a single shred of evidence that the physical requirements have been adjusted. The written tests and background checks keep being cited, but they were actually changed by legislation or executive fiat. Where is the similar reference to changes in the physical requirements--requirements that Ms. Wilson flunked?

You are asserting that after making a big deal to "lower the standards" in two categories for candidate selection, "someone" (that you apparently have a need to be a mayor) has also managed to lower the physical requirements and no one has seen fit to blow the whistle on that mayor.

In every department where I have seen this sort of fight, there is always someone willing to talk off the record and always a well coifed TV reporter who wants to make a big deal of this sort of thing during sweeps week or curmudgeonly metro desk newspaper reporter who is angling for a Pulitzer who wants to grumble about it for a few weeks each year.

Note that I have not once said that the "diversity" angle could not possibly be true. I am simply amused by your persistent anger that people would have the audacity to ask questions about the cheesecloth on which you have painted your ire.

[danceswithcats]

<snip> Instead, you simpy wanted to come vent to an anonymous audience that has no power to change the conditions in your region about a situation.</snip>

Well, I guess that excepting political pittings, where the readers are registered voters in the US and choose to exercise their power to change things at the polls, the Pit may as well be closed for all other business. Just what it the Pit for, then?

BTW, that would be simply, Stimpy. :p

[tomndebb]

Pitting stuff is fine whether you can change it or not.
Having a temper tantrum because other posters are not joining you in your jeremiad is silly.

[The King of Soup]

Well, I guess that excepting political pittings, where the readers are registered voters in the US and choose to exercise their power to change things at the polls, the Pit may as well be closed for all other business. Just what it the Pit for, then?

BTW, that would be simply, Stimpy. :p
Oh, I don't know: simpy seems like a valid coinage to me, given the simp-like context.

Did you mean, you wanted your diatribe to be a referendum among US registered voters? Good choice, 'cause most of them like the idea of local control over their emergency response network. Well, except for one thing: most people hate for local control to cover for racial, religious or sexual bigotry. Oops, I guess. Since there's no race-based cover anymore for recruit Wilson's retention, you may not be interested in an honest assessment of your race-based charges of favoritism. And that's probably the way it should be.

Meanwhile, there's always the possibility that some poster will come up with a novel yet useful way of classifying you. And that would be worthwhile.

[danceswithcats]

Pitting stuff is fine whether you can change it or not.
Having a temper tantrum because other posters are not joining you in your jeremiad is silly.

Once again, you’re mistaken. Do I desire you to join me? As Jules in Pulp Fiction said,
I don’t remember askin’ you a goddamned thing.

Dissent is welcomed, and there are times that well articulated viewpoints on the SDMB have given me pause to reconsider, however yours was not among them. You weren’t satisfied with offering another viewpoint. A hijack attempt regarding drug laws in the US and other pernicious pedantry earned you my rebuke, along with that of another Doper.

Apparently, you’re determined to have the last word, so go for it.