Steve Fossett missing

[A.R. Cane]

Just heard this on NPR. Here's a newspaper report:
http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_6798555

[jjimm]

Just been on UK Sky News. He's a bit of a hero here because of his connection with the Virgin balloon.

[Figaro]

I just saw the item on CNN. It would be deeply ironic if he ended up dying on a routine pleasure flight after all the things he's done that were genuinely dangerous.

I hope they find him ok. :(

~fig

[Xema]

Fossett, of Beaver Creek, took off in the single engine Bellanca at 8:45 a.m. Monday at a private airstrip on a ranch south of Smith Valley in western Nevada
I'm guessing he flew from the Flying M Ranch, owned by Barron Hilton (Hilton hotels). The terrain around there is quite rugged - desert and substantial mountains. I sure hope they're able to find him soon.

[Kricket]

I hope they find him and that he is alive. I wish his friends and family strength through this.

A slight hijack here, but I wish they would put that much effort into finding other lost or kidnapped people. I have a hard time thinking that one life is more important than another.
I hope that isn't considered crapping in your thread, it's just my observation. I do wish for the best outcome for this.

[Johnny L.A.]

A slight hijack here, but I wish they would put that much effort into finding other lost or kidnapped people. I have a hard time thinking that one life is more important than another.
Most of the people the CAP look for aren't Steve Fossett.

[picunurse]

He didn't file a flight plan, so he may not even know he's missing.

[Xema]

I wish they would put that much effort into finding other lost or kidnapped people.
In April,I was part of a (successful) search for a crashed pilot who was definitely not as prominent as Steve Fossett. The effort put forth by the Air Force, the Civil Air Patrol, police, county rescue folks and many others was impressive.

[A.R. Cane]

In April,I was part of a (successful) search for a crashed pilot who was definitely not as prominent as Steve Fossett. The effort put forth by the Air Force, the Civil Air Patrol, police, county rescue folks and many others was impressive.

I'd have to agree. Here in the PNW we have more than a few people who get lost, or in trouble, in the wilderness each year. There is normally tremendous effort to locate them, by athorities, volunteer groups and other gov't. agencies.
The news coverage is usually local, so other parts of the U.S, probably aren't aware of the frequency of these searches.

[Broomstick]

I just saw the item on CNN. It would be deeply ironic if he ended up dying on a routine pleasure flight after all the things he's done that were genuinely dangerous.
All flights - even routine pleasure flights on a nice day - carry a certain inherent risk. If you forget that, it can become genuinely dangerous. I really hope this isn't a case of arrogance or overconfidence getting the better of someone.

A slight hijack here, but I wish they would put that much effort into finding other lost or kidnapped people. I have a hard time thinking that one life is more important than another.
Around here (Chicago) the CAP will turn out in impressive numbers for any aircraft that's missing - multiple aircraft and dozens of ground searchers.

He didn't file a flight plan, so he may not even know he's missing.
From the sound of it, a flight plan was in no way required for his flight. Sounds like it was a rental airplane, and in general you are asked when renting you're coming back, and if you don't show up within a reasonable time they start looking for you. The search started pretty soon after he would have been out of fuel. I've been delayed in returning a few times, but you know to call the place you rented from and let them know what's going on.

Even folks with private airplanes who don't have to be accountable to anyone else will usually tell someone when to expect to either see them or get a phone call. It's cheap insurance.

[Xema]

Sounds like it was a rental airplane...
No, I think it's a plane (a Citabria?) that belongs to Barron Hilton, the owner of the airstrip from which he took off. That airport is entirely private - plenty of interesting aircraft, but all privately owned by Mr. Hilton.

[Broomstick]

No, I think it's a plane (a Citabria?) that belongs to Barron Hilton, the owner of the airstrip from which he took off. That airport is entirely private - plenty of interesting aircraft, but all privately owned by Mr. Hilton.
It's a Decathlon, actually - not that there is much visible difference between a Citabria and a Decathlon at 10 feet. Under the cowling and skin, yeah, and maybe on the panel, but they do look very similar.

Just because it's a privately owned airplane does not mean it isn't for rent. Not that I know either way, but it's not Fossett's airplane. I suppose it could be on loan as a favor, but I see no reason why a privately owned strip couldn't have an FBO with lease-backs available by the hour. I took my first flying lessons at a privately owned airport while renting the owner's aircraft. Unless you are more familar with the particular airport in quesiton than I am....? If so, please do clarify.

[Xema]

Unless you are more familar with the particular airport in quesiton ...
Yes, I've been there. The Flying M Ranch is south of Yerington, NV. It's absolutely huge - as I recall it, something in excess of 250,000 acres. When you own a spread like that, you certainly need a runway and some aircraft. The runway is paved and perhaps 5500' long. I recall seeing the Citabria/Decathalon, a nice Waco, a Citation jet, and several sailplanes (no doubt there were other toys I don't recall). I suspect right now there's a Citation X, since that's what Steve Fossett owns and travels with.

The point is that this is Barron Hilton's private residence. Outsiders are there by invitation only.

[lieu]

Reportedly he was off to investigate the salt flats as part of his preparation for an assault on the land speed record (jet car). If so, that may speak well as to the type of terrain they'll be searching for him in.

[Johnny L.A.]

Civil Air Patrol (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_Air_Patrol), in case anyone is interested.

[Kricket]

The wiki link said they do search and rescue but I didn't see if it mentioned if they only search for aircraft accidents. Do they also search for missing people not in aircraft accidents?

Thank you for the link and all those who had an answer for me. I learned something new and sadly interesting. It's sad that a group like that has to exist because bad things happen but it's cool that they are civilians putting in their time.

Back on topic. I haven't seen anything today about the search. Anything new?

[Johnny L.A.]

The wiki link said they do search and rescue but I didn't see if it mentioned if they only search for aircraft accidents. Do they also search for missing people not in aircraft accidents?
It's been a long time since I was in, so I can't really give a definite answer. Missions are assigned by the Air Force Rescue Coordination Center. If a pilot files a flight plan, he must close it after landing. If he doesn't then people start asking questions. For example, the FAA might call the destination airport to see if the missing aircraft landed there and the pilot forgot to close his flight plan. If the aircraft doesn't turn up (e.g., the pilot phones in and says he landed somewhere else and forgot to close his flight plan, or attempts to find the aircraft have failed)) a search is initiated. Searches will start sooner if someone reports a crash or reports of hearing an aircraft in trouble, a family member or friend reports the pilot missing, or if the ELT activates. If the pilot does not file a flight plan it may be some time before anyone starts looking.

The thing is that there are mechanisms in place to initiate a search for an aircraft. I personally haven't heard of missions looking for, say, a lost hiker; but that doesn't mean they don't do them. I was in SoCal when I was in CAP, and the L.A. County Sheriff has a very good SAR team and a big Sikorsky that has come in very handy pulling people out of the wilderness. Generally no need to get CAP involved. I think that in order for CAP to be called on a non-aviation SAR mission, a state or local authority would have to request them. But as I said, it's been a long time.

I do remember the CAP helping out after the Loma Prieta earthquake. Those 'little airplanes' people are so fond of complaining about landed at those 'little airports' that people are always trying to close, bringing in emergency supplies, ground search personnel, and search dogs.

[Figaro]

All flights - even routine pleasure flights on a nice day - carry a certain inherent risk. If you forget that, it can become genuinely dangerous. I really hope this isn't a case of arrogance or overconfidence getting the better of someone.I'm aware of that every time I fly, but I think you'd have to agree that riding the jet stream around the world in a balloon, or doing the same in a composite fuel tank shaped like an airplane with a single turbofan on top, carries a bit more inherent risk than a routine flight in a GA aircraft. You can get killed doing both, but the former is certainly more inherently dangerous.

[Duke of Rat]

The wiki link said they do search and rescue but I didn't see if it mentioned if they only search for aircraft accidents. Do they also search for missing people not in aircraft accidents?



Yes, the CAP searches for missing people not in aircraft accidents.

The top story on This Site (http://www.sccadets.org/inthenews/inthenews.htm) mentions how 3 CAP members were killed while searching for a missing teen (the linked news articles are both now broken) and another article mentions the CAP's involvement in the Hurricane Katrina rescue/relief effort.

You can read about the CAP here http://www.cap.gov/

[Johnny L.A.]

Yes, the CAP searches for missing people not in aircraft accidents.
Thanks for that. Once I get airborne again I think I'll look up the local squadron and see about getting my 201 file from California.

[An Arky]

I'd be willing to bet $100 he's deader than a doornail.

I hate how the press and their idiotic enablers create this whole suspenseful B.S. (see Utah Miners) as if someone who's clearly now taking the dirt nap might be alive still (be sure you stay tuned and pay close attention to the adverts). :rolleyes:

[StinkyBurrito]

I'd be willing to bet $100 he's deader than a doornail.

I hate how the press and their idiotic enablers create this whole suspenseful B.S. (see Utah Miners) as if someone who's clearly now taking the dirt nap might be alive still (be sure you stay tuned and pay close attention to the adverts). :rolleyes:
One of Kirk Douglas's early works, Ace in the Hole (1951) (http://imdb.com/title/tt0043338/) dealt with just that topic. I got a chance to watch it just the other day when the Utah thing was beginning to wind down. It was kind of thought provoking.

Of course I hope he is found alive, but I bet he didn't make it.

[A.R. Cane]

I'd be willing to bet $100 he's deader than a doornail.

I hate how the press and their idiotic enablers create this whole suspenseful B.S. (see Utah Miners) as if someone who's clearly now taking the dirt nap might be alive still (be sure you stay tuned and pay close attention to the adverts). :rolleyes:

I think your pessimism is a bit premature. Fossett is a competent, experienced pilot who has faced many difficult situations and survived. He could very well have survived a crash and be holding out for help. If they haven't located him after a week, I'll be more inclined to agree w/ you, but a couple of days is much to soon to be hanging the crepe.

[Duke of Rat]

The media can't very well just throw in the towel after a day and say, "Yep, he's probably dead so we just won't cover the story any more until they come up with a body". He was fairly well known, I bet they went for at least a week on the Amelia Earhart story.

On the other hand, despite how savvy Fossett is, after a couple of days with no radio transmissions, signal fires, or anything else, you have to expect that he's not just sitting there waiting on a rescue plane to taxi up to the crash. Hope I'm wrong, but I'm not holding my breath.

[Gatopescado]

I'm guessing he flew from the Flying M Ranch, owned by Barron Hilton (Hilton hotels). The terrain around there is quite rugged - desert and substantial mountains. I sure hope they're able to find him soon.

He did take off from there. You know what its like out there. I ride motorcycles all around in those mountains on either side of that valley. They are searching a 600 sq mile area. Some of that terrain is so rugged, you could fly or drive right by him and never see a thing. If he had a mechanical failure and had to go down in the mountains, he'd be lucky to survive the crash. If he did, they better find him fast, but no emergency beacons yet.

What I don't get is that they are reporting he was scouting a location for a land-speed record attempt. What utter crap! A half-hour on Google Maps will tell you the only place for that is Bonneville.

[Xema]

Some of that terrain is so rugged, you could fly or drive right by him and never see a thing.
Agreed - and I know from some experience that a crashed airplane is often a lot harder to see than people tend to assume. It should be noted that the few roads in that area tend to be rough and little-used.


... no emergency beacons yet.
Right, and that's a big issue. His plane would have had a crash-activated ELT (emergency locator transmitter) on board. If he made a forced landing that wasn't serious, he could have activated the device manually. The fact that no signal has been detected is definitely not a good sign. And without such a signal, searching is enormously more difficult.

I have met Steve Fossett a couple of times, and I know some soaring pilots that are good friends of his. He comes across as friendly and rather unassuming, but he is in fact quite tough and determined. So he is as likely as anyone to be able to survive this sort of ordeal. But, to be honest, the likelihood of survival declines with every passing hour.

What I don't get is that they are reporting he was scouting a location for a land-speed record attempt.
I, too, am puzzled by that. I don't know where he might have usefully done such scouting within a reasonable distance of the Flying M Ranch.

[Shagnasty]

He did take off from there. You know what its like out there. I ride motorcycles all around in those mountains on either side of that valley. They are searching a 600 sq mile area. Some of that terrain is so rugged, you could fly or drive right by him and never see a thing. If he had a mechanical failure and had to go down in the mountains, he'd be lucky to survive the crash. If he did, they better find him fast, but no emergency beacons yet.

There was a chartered Lear Jet crash in New Hampshire in 1996 on Christmas Eve. What followed was the largest search in the state's history and nothing was found in the weeks and months after. Several years later, a hunter found some odd debris on the side of a hill and what he saw left, was amazingly all there was. That part of New Hampshire is very rural but it isn't completely remote. That was a jet with two pilots and passengers as well, not one person in a small prop plane. They can disappear in an instant.

[Broomstick]

Right, and that's a big issue. His plane would have had a crash-activated ELT (emergency locator transmitter) on board. If he made a forced landing that wasn't serious, he could have activated the device manually. The fact that no signal has been detected is definitely not a good sign. And without such a signal, searching is enormously more difficult.
What if he didn't crash?

What if he landed (for whatever reason) off-airport in a controlled manner (so not activating the ELT), got out of the airplane, and THEN got into trouble? If he fell down some terrain (I'm not familar with the area - is that possible) and couldn't get back to the airplane then there would be no signal of any sort, would there?

Just completely wild speculation on my part, as a way of explaining why he might have disappeared with no signal at all.

[Johnny L.A.]

Just completely wild speculation on my part, as a way of explaining why he might have disappeared with no signal at all.
I heard or read today that he was wearing an ELT watch.

[Johnny L.A.]

I heard or read today that he was wearing an ELT watch.
Ah. Here it is (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20588788/):
Fossett always wears a Breitling Emergency wristwatch that allows pilots to turn a knob and immediately signal their location, said Granger Whitelaw, a fellow pilot and a co-founder of the Rocket Racing League. But no such signal was activated.
Information on the Breitling Emergency can be found here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breitling).

[blondebear]

Steve Fossett missing in an airplane.

Jim Gray missing in a sailboat.

:dubious:

[Xema]

What if he landed (for whatever reason) off-airport in a controlled manner (so not activating the ELT), got out of the airplane, and THEN got into trouble? If he fell down some terrain (I'm not familar with the area - is that possible) and couldn't get back to the airplane then there would be no signal of any sort, would there?
It's certainly possible, but seems much less likely than the crash explanation.

[Xema]

There was a chartered Lear Jet crash in New Hampshire in 1996 on Christmas Eve... That was a jet with two pilots and passengers as well.
Here's the Wiki article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1996_New_Hampshire_Learjet_crash) on that crash. There were no passengers aboard - just the two pilots.

The voice recorder was recovered from the crash site - here's a detailed report (http://brian76.mystarband.net/Learjet.htm). The screwups those pilots made were astonishing - scarcely possible, you'd say, for pilots qualified to fly a Lear 35 (which both were).

[Johnny L.A.]

Here's the Wiki article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1996_New_Hampshire_Learjet_crash) on that crash.
Because the aircraft had seemed to disappear without a trace, the incident caught the attention of a number of UFO enthusiasts, who looked to the incident to bolster their theories, with one group making the statement, "The crash occurred after a flurry of UFO activity in the general area."
Aiyiyi. :rolleyes:

[David Simmons]

It's certainly possible, but seems much less likely than the crash explanation.What puzzles me is the lack of any distress calls. It is a really remote and unpopulated area, but there are flight service stations with remote communications to Reno and Salt Lake City at severl locations and radio waves lead tall buildings in a single bound.

This sort of suggests to me that he screwed up and flew into the side of a mountain.

[Xema]

What puzzles me is the lack of any distress calls... there are flight service stations with remote communications to Reno and Salt Lake City at severl locations...
And his ELT is supposed to self-activate in case of a crash, and needs no direct communication with any ground receiver (because its signal can be received by aircraft and satellites).


This sort of suggests to me that he screwed up and flew into the side of a mountain.
I agree that the most likely explanation is a crash severe enough to disable all radio equipment including the ELT, which crash would no doubt be hard to survive. I continue to hope that one of the less likely and more hopeful possibilities proves to be the correct one.

[Moirai]

Hampering the search are the dozens of uncharted wreck sites in the area. They thought they might have had him earlier, but they put a guy on the ground who confirmed it was wreckage from an earlier crash.

A land speed record, but not at Bonneville? Weird idea. Maybe El Mirage dry lake? I've ridden motorcycles out there, but it was years ago and I can't remember of there was a stretch long and wide and flat enough for a speed trial.

[David Simmons]

I agree that the most likely explanation is a crash severe enough to disable all radio equipment including the ELT, which crash would no doubt be hard to survive. I continue to hope that one of the less likely and more hopeful possibilities proves to be the correct one.What I meant was that if it was just engine trouble or the like he would have plenty of time to call a flight service station or airport tower or unicom and say he was in trouble and going down at such and such location.

[Xema]

What I meant was that if it was just engine trouble or the like he would have plenty of time to call a flight service station or airport tower or unicom and say he was in trouble and going down at such and such location.
That area is definitely remote enough to make ground-to-ground communication less than fully reliable. And a pilot faced with the need to make a forced landing may well have better things to do than try to talk on the radio. But once on the ground, if any radio was functional it should not be too tough to establish some sort of communication. For example, airliners often monitor 121.5 MHz.

[Xema]

Here's a story that suggests the search should certainly continue: Missing 76-year-old found alive after two weeks (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20631079/).

[David Simmons]

And a pilot faced with the need to make a forced landing may well have better things to do than try to talk on the radio.Which is why I believe that whatever happened must have been catastrophic. Something like a serious fire on board, part of the airplane falling off, or flying into a mountain while your head is in the cockpit siddling with something or reading a map.

[Johnny L.A.]

CNN video (http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/us/2007/09/07/mo.miles.fossett.search.cnn).

[N9IWP]

Searchers find 6 other crash sites:
http://www.aero-news.net/news/genav.cfm?ContentBlockID=9f77adf3-fae8-422d-a684-e57890e4cd31&Dynamic=1

Brian

[Xema]

Another example of why it makes sense to keep on searching: Student climbs out of ravine a week after crash (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20664520/).

[Gorsnak]

Saw an article on Slashdot that they've got fresh hi-res satellite imagery that's been released for a sort of distributed online search for possible crash sites, where anyone can download the footage and then send in possible hits to a team that will review them and direct the good ones to the attention of searchers. I'd link it but I'm lazy. Seems like a neat idea, though.

[E-Sabbath]

http://www.mturk.com/mturk/preview?groupId=9TSZK4G35XEZJZG21T60&kw=Flash

Do what you can. Try to save a life.

[Count Blucher]

One.

Missing Person's Investigation!

Every little trip he takes...

Oh wait...that was Fosse (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Fosse)

[Johnny L.A.]

Incidentally: When I was in CAP an aircrew went down in the San Bernardino mountains while searching for downed aircraft. All aboard were killed. The searchers in Nevada are flying aircraft 'similar' to Fossett's. (Fossett's borrowed Decathlon is tube-and-fabric and the search aircraft are all aluminum, but you know what I mean.) And they're flying over the same terrain (obviously) and probably in the same weather. Let's hope everyone remains safe.

[N9IWP]

CAP gives up search:
http://www.aero-news.net/news/genav.cfm?ContentBlockID=e33820b9-acb9-45e2-8b74-ecbd5061201f&Dynamic=1

Brian

[Ice Wolf]

Damn. :(