Inevitable - The Whoppie defends Vick

[Hail Ants]

I was wondering how long it would take and who it would be (I figured Jesse Jackson or Sharpton) but Whoppie Goldberg has actually tried to defend Vick by saying that people from the South aren't aware that dog-fighting is so bad. Let me repeat that phrase: people from the South aren't aware dog-fighting is bad.

Words simply escape me. Even an utterly inexcusable and undefendable act as Vick's is still somehow trying to be excused and defended because he's 'a brother'. Plus anyone, myself here included, who criticises her for defending him will probably be accused of being a racist. Of course what Whoppie is really saying is that all white people are inherently prejudiced and therefore the black community has to stick up for him.

People from the South also used to lynch black people and also didn't think doing that was all that bad, should some white pundit try and defend them? If instead of a wealthy, mansion-owning, first-class flying, but still somehow ignorant of common morality black guy, it had been a poor, confederate flag flying, shotgun toting, beer-swilling cracker do you think the Whoopie would be rushing to make the same point about southerners?

What exactly are white people supposed to think when a black guy can literally do anything, from torturing animals for fun to cutting his (white) wife's head off out of jealousy, and the black community will still not only not condemn it, but excuse it.

That is, what are they supposed to think other than that black people are just if not more racist than whites.

[Monty]

I'm from the South and, for as long as I can remember, I've known that dog-fighting is very, very bad. I also feel the same way about lynchings, in case you're wondering.

[Baldwin]

There's a Pit thread here (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=435296) on this topic. I don't know if there's a real debate here. I agree with your premise (that it's ridiculous to defend Vick based on the idea that all us inbred simpletons in the South just don't know any better). Why are you referring to Whoopi Goldberg as "the Whoppie"? I hope you're not stooping to ridiculing somebody's name because you disagree with them.

[brazil84]

In fairness, it does seem that there are some prominent blacks who are willing to deviate from the party line.

For example, during the Duke Lacrosse Rape Hoax, there was a black professor of law who publicly criticized the prosecutor.

[Burton]

Whoopi Goldberg's given name is quite silly enough.

I think the point is that prominent, if you will, African American's excusing behavior of this type isn't doing anyone any good. Is it the majority opinion of Black Americans? I very much doubt it, but Joe Average American of any stripe's opinion isn't much sought by the television and publishing industries.

[Mike Fun]

Whoopi Goldberg's given name is quite silly enough.

"Caryn Elaine Johnson" isn't all that silly, but her stage name is.

[Captain Amazing]

Words simply escape me. Even an utterly inexcusable and undefendable act as Vick's is still somehow trying to be excused and defended because he's 'a brother'. Plus anyone, myself here included, who criticises her for defending him will probably be accused of being a racist. Of course what Whoppie is really saying is that all white people are inherently prejudiced and therefore the black community has to stick up for him.

That's not actually what she said. She just said that Vick grew up in a culture where dogfighting is accepted. I don't know if that's true or not, and she may well be factually incorrect, but I don't think she's saying or implying what you suggest.

[Lord Ashtar]

I hope you're not stooping to ridiculing somebody's name because you disagree with them.
Of course not. That sort of thing is beyond the pale around here.

Now, can someone point me to the latest Shrub thread?

[Merijeek]

That's not actually what she said. She just said that Vick grew up in a culture where dogfighting is accepted. I don't know if that's true or not, and she may well be factually incorrect, but I don't think she's saying or implying what you suggest.

Huh, then why hide his enterprise?

-Joe

[Marley23]

In fairness, it does seem that there are some prominent blacks who are willing to deviate from the party line.
There's a black party line now? :rolleyes:

Different cultures have different views about how to treat animals, so I don't know why this is such a controversial remark. It's not true that "everybody knows dogfighting is wrong." I think she's probably wrong that Vick didn't know any better, but it's a matter of opinion and not exactly a stirring defense on her behalf. I'm disgusted by the entire dogfighting story, but the vitriol she's getting confuses me.

[pizzabrat]

Geez, a month of disproportionate outrage wasn't enough? Now people are going to use a softly contrarian attempt to make conversation on a talk show to drag this out even further?

[Captain Amazing]

Huh, then why hide his enterprise?

-Joe

I'm sorry...I don't understand the question?

If you're asking why Vick hid the dogfighting, I'd imagine because it was illegal and he feared prosecution...that's generally why people hide illegal activity.

[you with the face]

Gotta say I'm really amazed that Jesse and Al managed to get mentioned in this thread (in the OP, no less). Never saw that coming in a million years.

What exactly are white people supposed to think when a black guy can literally do anything, from torturing animals for fun to cutting his (white) wife's head off out of jealousy, and the black community will still not only not condemn it, but excuse it.

Perhaps you can start by explaining how

1) Ted Danson-loving, Jewish-surname-bearing Whoopie Goldberg has come to embody the Black Community, and

2) her comments about Southern culture constitute an excuse when similar explanations are offered all the time about behaviors we see... with none of the vitriol she's been receiving.

"The boys were bullied, hence Columbine".
"Yates was insane, hence she killed her kids".
"The Palestinians have no clout or political voice, hence they suicide bomb."

People say this shit all the time and I have to see anyone wish chainsaw sodomy upon them (see Pit). So before I even attempt at humoring your question about what white people are supposed to think, perhaps you start off explaining how anything she said in any way warrants your reaction.

[Marley23]

What exactly are white people supposed to think when a black guy can literally do anything, from torturing animals for fun to cutting his (white) wife's head off out of jealousy, and the black community will still not only not condemn it, but excuse it.
I missed this the first time through. If you're really worried about being called a racist, I would stop suggesting that black people all think alike and protect their own at all costs.

[Hampshire]

Whoopi made the mistake by saying it was part of "Southern" culture which is an ignorant and bigoted thing to say in the first place.
What she should have said was that is was part of "gang" culture (or gangsta' culture or thug culture, whatever it is they call themselves these days).

And while it may serve as an explanation for his acts it if far from being an excuse for them.

[pizzabrat]

Whoopi made the mistake by saying it was part of "Southern" culture which is an ignorant and bigoted thing to say in the first place.
What she should have said was that is was part of "gang" culture (or gangsta' culture or thug culture, whatever it is they call themselves these days).And you're certain the latter is more accurate than the former, how?

[athelas]

I missed this the first time through. If you're really worried about being called a racist, I would stop suggesting that black people all think alike and protect their own at all costs.
So what if you replace "black community" with "a number of black individuals who claim to represent black America and have not been disowned by most black Americans"?

[pizzabrat]

So what if you replace "black community" with "a number of black individuals who claim to represent black America and have not been disowned by most black Americans"?When has any black "name" claimed to represent black America? Why would it be any black person's responsibility to "disown" anyone he has never claimed kindred (especially when blacks aren't and have never even been a self-defined group in the first place)? By what method could blacks en masse effectively "disown" these people?

[you with the face]

Of course what Whoppie is really saying is that all white people are inherently prejudiced and therefore the black community has to stick up for him.

Yeah that's really what she's saying, dude. Even though she never mentioned or implied anything about white or black people or prejudice, and never said anything that suggested that even she took issue with the flak or punishents Vick has received, what you are saying is sooooo true.

In fact, I think you're being charitable. What she really is saying is that whites better watch their back because on Sept 11 the ghosts of Nat Turner and Toussaint L'overture are expected to rise from Ground Zero and will jointly be tag-teaming their wrath on everyone lacking The One Drop.

"Indicative to the South" is code for all of that, you see.

[Captain Amazing]

Whoopi made the mistake by saying it was part of "Southern" culture which is an ignorant and bigoted thing to say in the first place.

I don't know that it is. For a long time, dogfighting was confined to parts of the rural South. That's not neccesarily true anymore, but for a long time, it was true. In fact, the most popular set of rules for dogfighting (the "Cajan Rules") was put together by Louisiana sheriff and promoter G. A. Trahan, who's dogfights were famous in the 1950s all over the south.

[Marley23]

So what if you replace "black community" with "a number of black individuals who claim to represent black America and have not been disowned by most black Americans"?
I would still think it's a meaningless remark. There are 40 million African-Americans in this country, according to estimates. So far, there have been three black people mentioned by name in this thread (Al Sharpton, Jessie Jackson and Whoopi Goldberg). Do even I need to explain why it's ridiculous to conflate that handful of people with a "community" of 40 million people in 50 states? How would that community go about "disowning" them? People sometimes accuse Sharpton and Jackson of pretending to be spokespeople for all American blacks, but when Whoopi Goldberg gets mentioned in the same context I think it's pretty clear that it works both ways.

[Captain Amazing]

In fact, I think you're being charitable. What she really is saying is that whites better watch their back because on Sept 11 the ghosts of Nat Turner and Toussaint L'overture are expected to rise from Ground Zero and will jointly be tag-teaming their wrath on everyone lacking The One Drop.

They'll be taking our women, too.

[Hampshire]

I don't know that it is. For a long time, dogfighting was confined to parts of the rural South. That's not neccesarily true anymore, but for a long time, it was true. In fact, the most popular set of rules for dogfighting (the "Cajan Rules") was put together by Louisiana sheriff and promoter G. A. Trahan, who's dogfights were famous in the 1950s all over the south.

But we're not talking about dog fighting in the 50's and Michael Vick didn't grow up in the 50's. We're talking about dog fighting in it's current state 2007.
It's most definately a "gang" activity more than a "southern" activity. Shit, they've been busting up gang members houses in Minneapolis that have signs of dog fighting and I'm pretty sure they aren't just some southern boys that moved up here from Alabama and brought their "culture" with them.

[pizzabrat]

But we're not talking about dog fighting in the 50's and Michael Vick didn't grow up in the 50's. We're talking about dog fighting in it's current state 2007.
It's most definately a "gang" activity more than a "southern" activity. Shit, they've been busting up gang members houses in Minneapolis that have signs of dog fighting and I'm pretty sure they aren't just some southern boys that moved up here from Alabama and brought their "culture" with them.What are you, a social scientist? How do you know this?

[Hentor the Barbarian]

Is there any sort of transcript of what "the Whoppie" said about Vick?

Is there anything that would suggest it was "inevitable" that she said anything?

Do any facts at all matter, or is this a baseless thread inspired by something other than concern for "the Whoppie," Michael Vick or dogfighting?

Is "the Whoppie" that guy in the Burger King ads who has been superimposed over real football players?

[dropzone]

"The boys were bullied, hence Columbine".
"Yates was insane, hence she killed her kids".
"The Palestinians have no clout or political voice, hence they suicide bomb."

People say this shit all the time and I have to see anyone wish chainsaw sodomy upon them (see Pit).Um, perhaps you should spend more time in the Pit. The powertool enema was new, but people there are rated on their creativity. IIRC, all three of those topics were discussed "creatively" many times.

Explaining behavior does not necessarily excuse it. Dogfighting has been relatively common in the South for centuries and has moved north with some former Southerners. Saying so doesn't excuse it, but it does provide some perspective.

And Andrea Yates was batshit insane.

[Koxinga]

Whoopi Goldberg's given name is quite silly enough.

I think the point is that prominent, if you will, African American's excusing behavior of this type isn't doing anyone any good. Is it the majority opinion of Black Americans? I very much doubt it, but Joe Average American of any stripe's opinion isn't much sought by the television and publishing industries.

Oh, you mean like the folks in this picture? (http://assets.espn.go.com/i/magazine/new/simpson_verdict_reaction.jpg)
From here: http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/040611

[Triskadecamus]

Um, she is a comedienne, right?

Southern folks don't know that dog fighting is bad.

Southern folks don't know that your sister is still your sister after you divorce her.

Tris

[Nametag]

From the video I watched, and some help from a political talk site:

GOLDBERG: From his background, this is not an unusual thing for where he comes from. It’s like cock fighting in Puerto Rico. You know there are certain things that are indicative to certain parts of our country.

WALTERS: What part of the country is this?

GOLDBERG: He’s from the South, the Deep South, and dog-fighting that’s part of the thing…

[Cross talk]

BEHAR: What about torturing and dog-murdering, though?

GOLDBERG: Well, that’s part, unfortunately that’s part of the thing.

Her demeanor definitely seems analytical, rather than defensive; actually, she seemed pretty New York Snotty when she said "he's from the South." You know -- those people.

So yeah, I'd say some regional bigotry, some fifty-years-out-of-date stereotyping, a distinct air of phony ivory tower aloofness, and a whole lot of wannabe contrarianism. Defending Vick? Not so much.

[BrainGlutton]

I've actually seen some Dopers defend cockfighting on "cultural grounds." (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=6098596&highlight=cockfight#post6098596) There's no moral difference between that and dogfighting, is there? (But nobody looks at chickens as "man's best friend.")*



*Insert your own farmboy joke here.

[Zoe]

dropzone: Dogfighting has been relatively common in the South for centuries.

Not unless it was done by Chickasaw, Cherokee, etc. Even two hundred years ago, most of the South was still sparsely settled compared to the rest of the country and east of the Appalachians.

In all of the 64 years that I've lived in Tennessee, I've never even heard of dogfighting. Obviously it exists, but it cannot be "common." Church socials are common. County fairs are common. SEC rivalries are common. Bachelor parties are common. Dogfighting is not common.

BTW, when Whoopi said that Vick is from the Deep South, she was showing a misunderstanding of Southern geography. He is from Virginia which is Northeast of Tennessee. Tennessee is referred to as "the Mid-South." Virginia can't be "the Deep South." That refers to Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia, part of Florida and perhaps part of Texas. And being southerly on a map doesn't make something "Deep South."

Marley23, I can understand why you don't understand my beef with Whoopi. What if instead of saying that dogfighting is just part of Southern culture, Whoopi had said that dogfighting is just part of being from a Black culture. Could you understand why that would make some Blacks pissed at her?

For one thing, the statement if false. For another, the group the statement is made about are already fighting stereotypes and bigotry from some quarters. Finally, her statement reached millions of people and for many probably reenforced the misconceptions they hold about the South.

[dalej42]

Terrell Owens (http://www.fannation.com/truth_and_rumors/view/20435) seems to think it might be a cultural thing.

[Bryan Ekers]

I hope you're not stooping to ridiculing somebody's name because you disagree with them.

It's witty, on occasion. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=3034875#post3034875)

[Iknewit]

Dog fighting is a southern sport. It was a big deal in the southeast, where I come from. I knew countless men who took great pride in their dogs. The serious guys would usually have 25 to 50 dogs, mostly for breeding and training, with only a few of them actually used to fight matches. It was not largely frowned upon and law enforcement in many areas, just didn't care. Animal cruelty, in many cases, just wasn't viewed in the same light as more urban areas. If you routinely kill chickens and hogs and cows and put down your own horses and dogs, the act of killing an animal is hard to see as cruel. If you routinely saw chickens and dogs and other animals fighting on their own, as they will, it doesn't seem all that unreasonable to put a couple of them together and bet on the outcome of the fight. Over time the "sport" became popular because some people enjoyed watching dogs fight as much or more than watching people fight, which is an organized and recognized sport. The people observing the fights will tell you that the dogs want to fight as much as any human. Also, the gambling aspect was popular, as with human fights.

The transplant of the sport to the northern and more metropolitan area does come from the south. I will post a link to an ex friend of mine who was highly involved in breeding, training, selling and trafficking fighting dogs from the deep south to northern, urban locations. It is much easier to keep and train the dogs in rural areas and then sell them to people in the city who gamble on the fights but have no place to breed, train and keep many dogs. The urban counterparts to the southern breeders and fighters are generally less concerned with the health and fitness of their dogs. The guys I know, while they would kill dogs that showed no signs of usefulness, rarely did so. Even a dog without the temperment to fight, was usually of value just for his blood line. They keep meticulous records and do not allow dogs to breed at will but only breed selectively to ensure that they can at least sell the dog to another breeder seeking that blood line. The dog fighters I knew kept their dogs well fed, cared for and attended to. The only incidents of cruelty were the fights and the occasional killing of a dog that may have been diseased, threatened the health of the other dogs or on the rare occasion that a dog was found completely and utterly useless to them. To kill the dog to some was a shame and was done with remorse and to others, no more than killing a chicken for dinner.

Follow the link to the story at the end. Tris and I grew up together in rural North Carolina. To make a long story short, he got involved in a lot of bad stuff, drugs, strolen goods and finally learned to breed, care for, train and sell fighting dogs. he learned from another guy that we all grew up knowing who had learned from his dad about raising and fighting pit bulls. It was passed from generation to generation. Tris eventually got involved with a guy from south eastern VA, you guessed it, from Michael Vicks "Bad Newz" kennels. I never knew Vick had any part of the kennel until he got busted. One of the guys from Bad Newz was coming down and buying dogs from Tris. I'm pretty sure they were trafficking cocaine along with the dogs. At any rate, another friend that I grew up with was there, "Danny boy". There was an argument, Danny boy called the buy from Bad newz the "n word" the Bad newz guy pulled a 9mm pistol out, fired one round at his feet and dared him to say it again. Danny boy, being the dumbass redneck he wass raised to be, repeated the word and was shot in the head at point blank range. The story gets long and sorted from there, as if it weren't already.

I don't condone dog fighting in any way. I condem it. I condemmed my friend for it, as much as I had still counted him as a friend through a lot of other illegal and stupid things he did. I talked with him a few times after the murder (he is now charged with the murder) and had not much to say except "man, you fucked up."

The moral of the story is that dog fighting is bad. In case you missed it. Just thought my experiences with this might shed some light on the subject. I was born and raised in the south with a bunch of stupid rednecks, to be candid. I try not to be too critical of them, even though they probably deserve it.

http://www.pet-abuse.com/cases/7481/