Mafia: The Conspiracy [Archive] - Page 3 - Straight Dope Message Board

Pleonast

10-03-2007, 02:13 PM

The first Day after the much lamented Mayor Cecil was found dead, the village of Cecilwich went to work trying to track down the culprits. The Day started with some teamwork and planning, but spiraled into recriminations when it was realized there wasn't much to go on. Various candidates were proposed for a bout of neck-stretching justice, with several villagers claiming to have essential functions and be beyond reproach.

The decision was hampered by a freak blizzard, preventing a proper accounting of votes, but justice waits for no one. As the Sun set slowly, One and Only Wanderers was left standing alone on the gallows. Stoically, the Village sent him to his doom, hoping that the decision was just.

One and Only Wanderers has been lynched. A frantic search through the Town archives begins, trying to find any shred of evidence of his true identity.

Night has fallen.

Final votes:

One and Only Wanderers (6) <= Hockey Monkey (327), HazelNutCoffee (426), amrussell (434), Fretful Porpentine (456), DiggitCamara (458), fluiddruid (471), nesta (476), Zoggie (484), [amrussell (499)], [nesta (500)]

Zoggie (3) <= Diomedes (159), [Diomedes (292)], Idle Thoughts (313), Diomedes (475), nesta (500)
No Lynch (3) <= Rysto (487), MHaye (494), sachertorte (495)

Kat (1) <= ShadowFacts (468)
ShadowFacts (1) <= Drain Bead (469)
sachertorte (1) <= Rysto (265), fluiddruid (288), Diomedes (292), [Rysto (294)], MadTheSwine (344), Blaster Master (401), ShadowFacts (422), One and Only Wanderers (439), Drain Bead (443), [One and Only Wanderers (447)], [ShadowFacts (462)], [Diomedes (465)], [MadTheSwine (466)], [Drain Bead (469)], [fluiddruid (471)]
amrussell (1) <= Rysto (158), [Rysto (265)], Pygmy Rugger (349), Hal Briston (377), DiggitCamara (379), Kat (398), MHaye (404), nesta (432), [Pygmy Rugger (449)], [Hal Briston (455)], [DiggitCamara (458)], [nesta (460)], [MHaye (474)]
Pygmy Rugger (1) <= One and Only Wanderers (483)
Idle Thoughts (1) <= Rysto (371), CatinaSuit (380), [Rysto (487)]

fluiddruid (0) <= ShadowFacts (258), Hockey Monkey (259), Fretful Porpentine (283), [Fretful Porpentine (293)], [Hockey Monkey (303)], [ShadowFacts (310)]
Drain Bead (0) <= amrussell (291), [amrussell (320)]
MadTheSwine (1) <= Kat (173), [Kat (398)], amrussell (499)
Blaster Master (0) <= DiggitCamara (270), ShadowFacts (310), [DiggitCamara (379)], [ShadowFacts (422)]
nesta (0) <= MadTheSwine (249), [MadTheSwine (344)], amrussell (351), [amrussell (434)]
MHaye (0) <= ShadowFacts (153), One And Only Wanderers (181), sachertorte (256), [ShadowFacts (258)], [sachertorte (270)], [One and Only Wanderers (439)]
Hal Briston (0) <= Drain Bead (145), [Drain Bead (443)]
Rysto (0) <= sachertorte (452), [sachertorte (495)]

DiggitCamara

10-03-2007, 02:14 PM

hmmm who else doesn't like vigs around. Oh yeah, scum.

vote Pygmy Rugger
Actually, I'd strongly disagree with that sentiment.

Look, I actually played a different version of the Vig. And even though I had correctly identified at least one scum, I second guessed myself and killed a strong town player (and mason to boot) during the one Night I was able to use my power.

The thing is, I was aware of the high probability of a miss on my part (that is, that I would hit town on my first attempt). Your case is even worse. Not only is there a high chance that you'll hit town on your first attempt, but if you do, you'll have to kill yourself anyway the Night after that has been revealed.

1. You increase the number of corpses available to the Necromancer
2. You dilute the pool of options available to the Vicar (the less Players die, the higher the chance the Vicar will block the Necromancer's efforts)

To boot, your actions aren't readily verified (you "may" target anyone)... and if you are falsely claiming, you can always say you tried to kill someone and were blocked. At worst you're the false-claiming vampire...

ShadowFacts

10-03-2007, 02:16 PM

I assume that now that it is after 3pm we are no longer allowed to strategize or post anything but fluff?

CatInASuit

10-03-2007, 02:17 PM

Here's hoping he is scum and that we didn't just kill Buffy.

I guess sachertorte can tell us in the morning to prove/disprove his role.

fluiddruid

10-03-2007, 02:17 PM

Well crap. I thought the role claim was worth investigating but it's too late now...

Hockey Monkey

10-03-2007, 02:21 PM

Looks like Pleonast is taking care of recording the post number with the vote counts, so I won't be doing that this game. :)

Freudian Slit

10-03-2007, 02:22 PM

Damn. I never realized how into this game I would get till the boards went down. This is awesome!

Boozahol Squid, P.I.

10-03-2007, 02:48 PM

I can't believe I forgot -twice- what color I was supposed to vote in. And now that we don't even know what side the lynchee is on, I don't know whether to drink to celebrate, or drink to mourn our loss.

Not that I've ever been one to shy away from drinking to drink. Bottoms up!

ShadowFacts

10-03-2007, 02:55 PM

Pleonast

10-03-2007, 03:05 PM

Yep, it's Night now. Only fluff posts, please.

Sorry about the board outage. :cool:

Think of the delayed reveal as the cliff-hanger at the end of each episode. We got to get the page-views up!

DiggitCamara

10-03-2007, 04:20 PM

Freudian Slit

10-03-2007, 04:23 PM

Why mourn? He might come back!
God, I love this game.

It's got such a Last Rites of Jeff Myrtlebank feel to it.

On second thought. I thought that the Witch Doctor only could bless people killed at night. Our latest victim was a day lynch.

DiggitCamara

10-03-2007, 05:09 PM

God, I love this game.

It's got such a Last Rites of Jeff Myrtlebank feel to it.

On second thought. I thought that the Witch Doctor only could bless people killed at night. Our latest victim was a day lynch.
Hey, he might come back yearning for BRRRRAIIIIIIINS!!!

Rysto

10-03-2007, 05:12 PM

Only if the Vicar's totally incompetent.

Freudian Slit

10-03-2007, 05:28 PM

Hey, he might come back yearning for BRRRRAIIIIIIINS!!!
It's never the same, though.

They come back all hungry for brains, you have to chain them up to the wall to watch TV with them...no fun at all. (Yes, I've been watching Shaun of the Dead too much.)

DiggitCamara

10-03-2007, 05:54 PM

Only if the Vicar's totally incompetent.

Maybe he was the Vicar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Confessor_%28comics%29)!

OK, I know that technically that would make him a Vampire/vigilante/priest combination, but still, wouldn't it be a cool role?

CatInASuit

10-04-2007, 06:36 AM

Looks like the blizzard is keeping most of the people from the bar.

Oh well more for us who can make it and it will keep us warm.

Here's to OAOW:
If you're town: Farewell, we'll avenge you.
If you're scum: Farewell and good riddance.

DiggitCamara

10-04-2007, 10:36 AM

ShadowFacts

10-04-2007, 02:18 PM

Dude: We lynched him, collectively. How do you mean to avenge him? By lynching more town?

Torturing the hamsters for taking a smoke break an hour before deadline?

Drain Bead

10-04-2007, 05:58 PM

Bumpxxor.

Freudian Slit

10-04-2007, 08:37 PM

So who do you have to kill to get a drink around here?

Boozahol Squid, P.I.

10-04-2007, 09:03 PM

:: waves from behind the bar ::

Who do you have to kill? Why Bruto: Barbarian Lord of Northumbria. He's our bouncer.

Or you could can just pay. Either way works here at Cecil's Tavern.

Kat

10-04-2007, 09:09 PM

I'll take anything you have that's got rum in it.

dotchan

10-04-2007, 10:05 PM

*waves from the Peanut Gallery*

Hey, barkeep! Mind tossing a few beers up here? :D

ShadowFacts

10-05-2007, 10:08 AM

Stupid west coast time.

Can't....stand the....waiting....

tension....building....

Spock!

CatInASuit

10-05-2007, 10:12 AM

Only a few more hours to wait.

And I got a shiny new user name as well. :D

fluiddruid

10-05-2007, 01:41 PM

Nothing yet? I'm getting the twitches.

HazelNutCoffee

10-05-2007, 01:48 PM

I think we should start doing Jello shots.

Pleonast

10-05-2007, 02:06 PM

The Villagers settle into their cottages. Were the events of the past Day over? Maybe culprit was taken care of and life could return to normal. A murder and justice done, neat and simple.

The bitter wind howled in the Night. At least, it might be the wind...

Alas, it was not to be. There was another brutal murder: amrussell was found dead between his back door and the outhouse, blood soaking in the leaves.

And, what's this! Not one, but two tragedies: Fretful Porpentine does not rise for her bed. And a glance under the sheets reveals a gory mess.

This bodes ill...

amrussell and Fretful Porpentine are dead. The Day ends at Wednesday, noon Pacific Time.

Blaster Master

10-05-2007, 02:09 PM

amrussell and Fretful Porpentine are dead. The Day ends at Wednesday, noon Pacific Time.

Very interesting that amrussell was attacked... I suppose we can probably conclude from that he was telling the truth. Not that it matters, I suppose.

I would like to hear from our claimed coroner though... what say you?

HazelNutCoffee

10-05-2007, 02:39 PM

Er, what are the kill possibilities again? Vigilante, Vampire, and Werewolves, right?

I can see why amrussell was killed, but Fret seems somewhat random to me, at least at this point. Although I suppose if it was a Vampire kill that makes sense; all the Vampire wants to do is kill everyone, no? (Except the Necromancer, I suppose.)

Maybe something will surface upon re-reading yesterDay's posts.

Freudian Slit

10-05-2007, 02:47 PM

Er, what are the kill possibilities again? Vigilante, Vampire, and Werewolves, right?
Right. So maybe the vigilante (if there was only one) was finished off already, which is why we only have two people dead.

Then again, this all depends on whom was killed, and of course, that information is slowed by the tide of bureacracy...

CatInASuit

10-05-2007, 02:57 PM

Right. So maybe the vigilante (if there was only one) was finished off already, which is why we only have two people dead.

Then again, this all depends on whom was killed, and of course, that information is slowed by the tide of bureacracy...

There are a lot of options of what could have happened, but the simplest is probably one wolf, one vampire.

I will be waiting for sachertorte to start proving his claim with some information.

Hockey Monkey

10-05-2007, 03:13 PM

Before we start a logic circle, let's wait for sachertorte to tell us who they were. If they come up anything other than that when Pleonast reveals, we kill sachertorte.

ShadowFacts

10-05-2007, 03:24 PM

I hope that everybody can see that the moral of today's story is Get your votes in ahead of time! We wasted plenty of time discussing useless hypotheticals and now we're paralyzed at the last minute. I understand that some players can't be on as much on the weekends, but there were only like 5 people posting this weekend and I don't think that the other 17 were all that busy. If you do have to miss a weekend, we need you to come in and be caught up and posting by the end of Monday. Votes need to be in by Tuesday to avoid another debacle like today.

I want to start this day by trying to get some agreement on this point before we get too far afield. To wit:

I propose that all players place a vote no later than 24 hours before the end of the Day, meaning Tuesdays at 12pm Noon Pacific.

Of course, votes can and will change after this due to the inevitable roleclaim, but at least then we'll have some time to suss them out. I hope the inconvenient board downtime and the resultant scrambling at the last second is enough to convince everyone of the efficacy of this proposal.

All in favor, say Aye. All opposed, you're scum! :D (joke!)

Fretful Porpentine

10-05-2007, 03:26 PM

Whoa, I wonder why I died? Oh well, that leaves me more time to send out job applications and grade papers, so it's probably just as well.

Farewell, all! Unless I come back again :eek:

sachertorte

10-05-2007, 03:34 PM

Freudian Slit

10-05-2007, 03:34 PM

Before we start a logic circle, let's wait for sachertorte to tell us who they were. If they come up anything other than that when Pleonast reveals, we kill sachertorte.
I'm cool with this. And with what ShadowFacts wants us to do.

HazelNutCoffee

10-05-2007, 03:51 PM

Whoa. We got a scum on our first Day! :eek:

Hockey Monkey

10-05-2007, 03:51 PM

Congratulations Town you lynched One And Only Wanderers; Alignment: Cabal.

Autopsy of amrussell confirms town loyalty; Alignment: Town.
Autopsy of Fretful Porpentine reveals unnatural furriness; Alignment: Wolf.

Assuming that all of that is true, then it's great news! We will have to wait until the dusk post for OAOW alignment to be posted by Pleonast, correct?

ShadowFacts

10-05-2007, 03:55 PM

Whoa. We got a scum on our first Day! :eek:

Well, maybe. The only way to know for sure is to wait for toMorrow and Pleonast's reveal.

Pleonast

10-05-2007, 03:56 PM

Assuming that all of that is true, then it's great news! We will have to wait until the dusk post for OAOW alignment to be posted by Pleonast, correct?Yes, the OaOW's Side will be revealed at Dusk.

Edit: New page, add sig...

sachertorte

10-05-2007, 03:57 PM

Pleonast will reveal One And Only Wanderer's alignment at dusk when he annouces Today's lynch.
He will announce the alignment of amrussell and Fretful Porpentine at the dawn of Day 3.

HazelNutCoffee

10-05-2007, 04:14 PM

Well, maybe. The only way to know for sure is to wait for toMorrow and Pleonast's reveal.
Oh, right. Premature celebration. :smack:

These delayed information reveals are quite frustrating.

MHaye

10-05-2007, 04:16 PM

It may be just me, but there's a little discrepancy between what Sachertorte told us and what the rules say he should know.

Pleo's rules establish that his revelations come in two phases. One Day after death he reveals the player's side. One Day later he reveals the role.

Side appears to mean, in this context, Town, Wolf, Undead or Cabal. Role appears to mean the particular powers.

Now the Coroner's role description says :-Will automatically know the Role of each dead Player, even ones under the enchantment of the Witchdoctor.Shouldn't Sach thus be able to tell us whether amr was the Freemason he claimed to be? And whether Fretful was one of the wolves with special powers? (The Cabal appears undifferentiated, so that's all I'd expect to get from him on them).

Or is the rule in error and all the Coroner can learn is the side?

Pleonast

10-05-2007, 05:06 PM

Pleo's rules establish that his revelations come in two phases. One Day after death he reveals the player's side. One Day later he reveals the role.

Side appears to mean, in this context, Town, Wolf, Undead or Cabal. Role appears to mean the particular powers.I use "Side" and "Role" precisely in the rules and elsewhere. There are no errors that I'm aware of.

Drain Bead

10-05-2007, 05:14 PM

Woot! This whole Coroner thing is pretty cool, provided you're not just making it up as you go along.

I am going to reread the thread and then post something of substance, I hope. Being on vacation for pretty much a whole Day has thrown me off a bit.

DiggitCamara

10-05-2007, 05:20 PM

I use "Side" and "Role" precisely in the rules and elsewhere. There are no errors that I'm aware of.
On that note: sachertorte, could you inform us amrussell's "Role"?

Idle Thoughts

10-05-2007, 05:34 PM

I'm cool with this. And with what ShadowFacts wants us to do.

I'm not. And people all jumped on MHaye for telling others "how to play the game"?

I'd think that was a bit more.

The faster people vote and all pile on one another, the more roleclaims we're going to have that I can't see being good for Town, but great for the baddies.

While I do agree people shouldn't all vote at the last minute in one huge rush, I think most (Town) are smart enough to leave some leeway in for roleclaims and having time to unvote if needed.

Anyway, this whole sach thing is interesting now. When I read his results, I wondered, first "How did he get those results that fast" and secondly, "Why does it say Cabal and Wolf for two but only Town for amr?

Speaking of which, I'm guessing looking over what little voting history there probably is for both the Cabalist and the Wolfy might bring about some insights (at least, here's hoping). Time to do that.

Kat

10-05-2007, 05:55 PM

On that note: sachertorte, could you inform us amrussell's "Role"?

I was going to post: Why would he want to do that? To give the scum premature information on which pro-Town role they don't have to worry about any more?

But then I remembered (and re-checked) that amrussell had claimed Freemason, which there's got to be more of anyway, since it'd be damn silly to have a single Freemason.

Rysto

10-05-2007, 05:57 PM

I expect this goes without saying but until sachertorte's claim is validated by Pleonast we can't use his information. We have no idea whether this information is correct and it's possible that sachertorte is scum and is trying to lead us wrong for a Day before getting lynched himself. I know that it's tempting to follow up what could be our first piece of solid information, but we can't afford to take the chance that sachertorte is scum.

amr's death is no surprise; the scum wouldn't want a confirmed Freemason who can validate any Freemason claim around. Fretful's death is a mystery to me at this point; he's not been on my radar at all.

I'm not. And people all jumped on MHaye for telling others "how to play the game"?

I'd think that was a bit more.

The faster people vote and all pile on one another, the more roleclaims we're going to have that I can't see being good for Town, but great for the baddies.
This is an infinitely better situation than what happened in Day One, where we had mass confusion in the last few hours. Getting the votes in a mere 24 hours early is nothing when a Day lasts 120. We need the time to discuss the role claims and decide what to do from there. We can't decide ahead of time for two reasons:

There's way too many possible roleclaims for us to fully appreciate all of the subtleties of any one roleclaim. For example, just yesterDay I said that a Werewolf would be happy to kill a claimed Seer because they'll either kill the real Seer or opposing scum like the Vampire. Of course, the Vampire can't be night-killed by the Wolves so that was a nonsense piece of reasoning.

Second, planning our strategy ahead of time and letting the scum know what it is only serves to tell the scum exactly what kind of roleclaim will work. This is not a good idea. We're far better off to get the votes in a bit early and then spend the last 24 hours deciding how to deal with our roleclaim. We'll waste far less time discussing scenarios that will never happen and we won't telegraph our intentions to the scum.

DiggitCamara

10-05-2007, 06:42 PM

I was going to post: Why would he want to do that? To give the scum premature information on which pro-Town role they don't have to worry about any more?

But then I remembered (and re-checked) that amrussell had claimed Freemason, which there's got to be more of anyway, since it'd be damn silly to have a single Freemason.
It's a very interesting thing, though.

1. One and Only Wanderers certainly false claimed. After all, he claimed after amrussell already had claimed. amrussell showed exactly how a freemason should claim

Among the loyal Town residents are the Freemasons, an organization so secretive that it doesn't even know its own membership. Fortunately, each Freemason does know the secret handsign that can be used to covertly identity another member. The Scotsman is hardy soul, and while somewhat shy, can readily defend himself against an attack. The Vigilante, on the other hand, is perfectly prepared to take matters into his own hands, if only he knew who to target. He'd deeply regret making a mistake. The Magician is a sly trickster and escape artist. He has devised an elaborate gimmick to elude an attacker.

Why would a freemason claim his specific role instead of just claiming freemason?

2. amrussell's death is interesting as well. Of the described roles, for freemasons, two are able to elude at least one death. Did amrussell cause Fretful's death? Was he doubly targeted?

So: if sachertorte is a false coroner, he actually told us which group he belongs to as well (he'd have known at least one of the two deaths so far; I'm guessing he knew One and Only Wanderers alignment, for this case). He'd be counting on a resurrection of the other dead player (Fretful Porpentine) as a zombie so we wouldn't get told what alignment she was prior to being zombified.

Kat

10-05-2007, 07:17 PM

Er...I think the Freemasons, the Scotsman/Scotsmen, Vigilante(s) and Magician(s) are all separate and distinct roles.

HazelNutCoffee

10-05-2007, 07:18 PM

Er, what? Are the Scotsman, Vigilante, and Magician all Freemasons as well? I thought the Freemasons were a seperate group.

DiggitCamara

10-05-2007, 07:19 PM

Er...I think the Freemasons, the Scotsman/Scotsmen, Vigilante(s) and Magician(s) are all separate and distinct roles.
I may very well be mistaken. But they are in one paragraph in the flavor text.

HazelNutCoffee

10-05-2007, 07:37 PM

But the Masons are a role, not a side. I don't think it's possible for players to have 2 roles. Could Pleonast confirm?

Pleonast

10-05-2007, 07:44 PM

Each bolded identifier in the color text is a separate Role. See the rules doc for the Powers of each Role.

DiggitCamara

10-05-2007, 07:56 PM

OK. I'll shut up now. :o

ShadowFacts

10-05-2007, 08:15 PM

The faster people vote and all pile on one another, the more roleclaims we're going to have that I can't see being good for Town, but great for the baddies.

I'm not sure that the more time we have, the more roleclaims we're going to get. What we have now is a situation where, somewhere near the deadline, the lynchee claims. Because there are only a few hours left, many players feel obliged to honor that roleclaim and immediately unvote, not wanting to lynch a potential power role. (And of course, scum claiming in this way pretty much get a free pass for a time). This causes someone else to get in line on the lynchmobile, rinse and repeat.

Now, if we have 24 hours to work with, there is much less pressure to unvote and we can force the claimee to explain him- or herself. As the days go on, there will be more data to go on as well. There will be time for a consensus to form as to whether we believe the claim or not; there will be time for people to confirm membership in a known group (if they want); there will be time for the lynchee to explain breadcrumbs they may have dropped; there will be time for investigators to reveal information; etc. etc.

It's also possible that a Townie may decide NOT to roleclaim, since there are 24 hours to go, and try to get out of the noose without revealing their identity. In which case, having more time could result in less roleclaims.

We've all seen it in game after game here: time pressure causes the town to do rash and ill-conceived things, which only benefits scum.

While I do agree people shouldn't all vote at the last minute in one huge rush, I think most (Town) are smart enough to leave some leeway in for roleclaims and having time to unvote if needed.

Didn't work out so hot yesterDay.

PS. Making a proposal and putting it up for discussion is not what I would call "telling others how to play." YMMV.

ShadowFacts

10-05-2007, 08:25 PM

On that note: sachertorte, could you inform us amrussell's "Role"?

While you're at it, please include Fretful Porcupine's "Role". You said Alignment: Wolf, but it could be the Alpha or Omega role (or just simple Wolf).

And, assuming we're correct and you do in fact have this information, why didn't you come out with it initially?

Drain Bead

10-05-2007, 08:46 PM

DiggitCamera's little booboo here has told me that he's not a Freemason, Scotsman, Vig, or Magician, otherwise I'm guessing he would have known that they were separate roles. I went to check the rules to see if any of that could give me insight as to what his role actually is, but nothing jumped out at me from there.

I am a bit concerned by his voting patterns, though. His first vote was to lynch a lurker early on Day One, which to me seems somewhat scummy. After that, he hopped on bandwagons without much elaboration. I think, when all is said and done, he had one post of any substance during the Day, which was to tell amrussell that his idea stunk.

For lack of anything else jumping out at me at the moment, I'm going to...

vote DiggitCamera

Boozahol Squid, P.I.

10-05-2007, 08:47 PM

While you're at it, please include Fretful Porcupine's "Role". You said Alignment: Wolf, but it could be the Alpha or Omega role (or just simple Wolf).

And, assuming we're correct and you do in fact have this information, why didn't you come out with it initially?

Both Cabal and Wolf are roles, in addition to alignment, as far as I know. Town, on the other hand, is clearly a Role, when the rules specifically state aligment. I'm up for leaving sache be until he clearly screws up.

I'm also pretty sure Masons are a Role with the alignment of Town. Scotsman, Vig, Magician et. al all seems to be other Roles, and so wouldn't fall under the broad brush of Mason.

But woo-hoo! We killed us a Cabalist and a Wolfie! 2 down, and x-2 to go!

Boozahol Squid, P.I.

10-05-2007, 08:55 PM

Oh, I'll just add that it makes perfect sense to me that the wolves would have killed amrussel: if he'd been left alive, he could have confirmed/denied any Mason claim, because they all would have given him the secret handshake yesterDay. It will be helpful to have a confirmed Mason otued with that info, as it will help the town later in Omega Wolf hunting.

ShadowFacts

10-05-2007, 09:58 PM

Both Cabal and Wolf are roles, in addition to alignment, as far as I know. Town, on the other hand, is clearly a Role, when the rules specifically state aligment. I'm up for leaving sache be until he clearly screws up.

I think you have the Town part wrong. According to the Rules, there are 4 sides (Town, Wolf, Undead, Cabal). Among those 4 Sides there are many different Roles. Town is not a Role, it is a Side. Coroner is a role.

Now, sachertorte's reveal was somewhat ambiguous. He said:

Congratulations Town you lynched One And Only Wanderers; Alignment: Cabal.

Autopsy of amrussell confirms town loyalty; Alignment: Town.
Autopsy of Fretful Porpentine reveals unnatural furriness; Alignment: Wolf.

I assume by "Alignment" he means "Side." But even that is not clear, because Cabal is both a Side and a Role (since there are no specific Cabal Roles) and Wolf could be both a Side and a Role. But Town is clearly not a Role. It is a Side.

Accord to the rules, the Coroner description reads thus:
"Coroner: will automatically know the Role of each dead Player, even ones under the enchantment of the Witchdoctor."

(bolding mine)

So the questions stand:
1. What are the Roles of the dead players?
2. Why did sachertorte reveal only the Sides (Alignments) and not the Roles?

But woo-hoo! We killed us a Cabalist and a Wolfie! 2 down, and x-2 to go!

Like Rysto, I would caution us being sure of sachertorte's info until it is confirmed toMorrow and the next Day (particularly in light of what I've just posted). To be honest, it seems a foolish move for scum to claim Coroner, since it is fairly easily tested, but who knows? Maybe two Days of confusion and wrong assumptions leading to bad lynches is worth it? Better safe than sorry and not pat ourselves on the back just yet.

Pleonast

10-05-2007, 10:38 PM

Rules Clarifications

A Zombie's original Side and Role will be revealed on the usual schedule.

A Player who comes back to life because of the Witchdoctor will not have his Side revealed (he will come back to life when it would have been revealed).

Roles have the Powers listed in the rules. If there's ambiguity, I will clarify them.

Boozahol Squid, P.I.

10-05-2007, 10:44 PM

I think you have the Town part wrong. According to the Rules, there are 4 sides (Town, Wolf, Undead, Cabal). Among those 4 Sides there are many different Roles. Town is not a Role, it is a Side. Coroner is a role.
You're totall yright. I was reversing them in my mind. Town is alignment.. .other things are roles. Read what I meant, not what I wrote! ;)

1. What are the Roles of the dead players?
2. Why did sachertorte reveal only the Sides (Alignments) and not the Roles?

Like Rysto, I would caution us being sure of sachertorte's info until it is confirmed toMorrow and the next Day (particularly in light of what I've just posted). To be honest, it seems a foolish move for scum to claim Coroner, since it is fairly easily tested, but who knows? Maybe two Days of confusion and wrong assumptions leading to bad lynches is worth it? Better safe than sorry and not pat ourselves on the back just yet.

I'm somewhat suspect of sache for those same reasons, especially because if I was the coroner, and Pleo gave me the info, I would never even think to pare off the Role, and just give the Alignment. Nevertheless, it doesn't hurt to give the guy a little credence until we have reason to doubt him. When he does, we can kill him.

HazelNutCoffee

10-05-2007, 11:04 PM

Boozahol Squid, P.I.

10-05-2007, 11:15 PM

I am trying to think of a reason why sacher would not reveal the specific Role of a Townsperson. Someone's already mentioned that it might beneift the scum; but the Role is going to be publicly announced anyway eventually, so that doesn't make much sense. :confused: I guess we'll just have to wait for sacher to explain.

There is one thing: If the person was enchanted by the Witch Doctor, they'll come back to life, without having revealed their identity. If amrussel was a Witch, or Seer, or even the WD, and claimed freemason in order to give himself some more time to be able to give the town some information (thinking that the scum woulnd't bother trying to kill a Mason), it would make sense for the coroner to want to hide that information pending the results of ressurection.

Freudian Slit

10-06-2007, 12:08 AM

My rationale for trying to get votes in 24 hours ahead of time boils down to the fact that the boards went down. Either way, people will role claim, but if there's literally no time for any of that, we're screwed. Plus, it's a long weekend, so a lot of people may not be around on the actual Monday.
DiggitCamera's little booboo here has told me that he's not a Freemason, Scotsman, Vig, or Magician, otherwise I'm guessing he would have known that they were separate roles. I went to check the rules to see if any of that could give me insight as to what his role actually is, but nothing jumped out at me from there.
This jumps out at me, too. Not a good sign.

vote Diggit Camera

Boozahol Squid, P.I.

10-06-2007, 12:16 AM

My rationale for trying to get votes in 24 hours ahead of time boils down to the fact that the boards went down. Either way, people will role claim, but if there's literally no time for any of that, we're screwed. Plus, it's a long weekend, so a lot of people may not be around on the actual Monday.

This jumps out at me, too. Not a good sign.

vote Diggit Camera

So he could still be a Witch, Detective, Vicar, Seer, Coroner? That's up to one of 7 roles, and you're voting for him because it's highly unlikely that he's one of the minor pro-town roles?

I'm keeping a FOS on you, Zoggie. You too, drain.

Stanislaus

10-06-2007, 03:08 AM

Very interesting that amrussell was attacked... I suppose we can probably conclude from that he was telling the truth. Not that it matters, I suppose.
I'd just like to thank Blaster Master for this kind epitaph, which I feel very much sums up my contribution to the game.

Good luck town!

ShadowFacts

10-06-2007, 08:00 AM

His first vote was to lynch a lurker early on Day One, which to me seems somewhat scummy.

As everyone knows by now, I don't think voting for lurkers on Day One is scummy. (Note: voting for, not necessarily lynching). I think it is an effective tool to force people to participate. Why do you think it is scummy?

I think, when all is said and done, he had one post of any substance during the Day, which was to tell amrussell that his idea stunk.

Would you agree that having "one post of substance during the Day" is lurking? If so, are you not now voting for DiggitCamera in part because of lurking? So, do you now think you are "somewhat scummy"?

Drain Bead

10-06-2007, 08:03 AM

So he could still be a Witch, Detective, Vicar, Seer, Coroner? That's up to one of 7 roles, and you're voting for him because it's highly unlikely that he's one of the minor pro-town roles?

I'm keeping a FOS on you, Zoggie. You too, drain.

It was that PLUS the voting record that jumped out at me. Each one alone wouldn't be enough. I'd also expect a townie to be more aware of what the various town roles are, but that's a minor point.

Drain Bead

10-06-2007, 08:07 AM

As everyone knows by now, I don't think voting for lurkers on Day One is scummy. (Note: voting for, not necessarily lynching). I think it is an effective tool to force people to participate. Why do you think it is scummy?

Would you agree that having "one post of substance during the Day" is lurking? If so, are you not now voting for DiggitCamera in part because of lurking? So, do you now think you are "somewhat scummy"?

Having one post of substance is not the same as lurking. He had several posts, they just didn't say much. What he was doing was advocating a vote for someone who had yet to post, on an experienced player who we all know will most likely be dominating the conversation at some point. I think voting for lurkers on Day One is scummy because it could invite a bandwagon, and potentially lynch a major town power role just because a person is AFK. You can't count your one vote for a lurker in a vacuum, especially in a game in which you only need a plurality to lynch.

fluiddruid

10-06-2007, 08:53 AM

So he could still be a Witch, Detective, Vicar, Seer, Coroner? That's up to one of 7 roles, and you're voting for him because it's highly unlikely that he's one of the minor pro-town roles?

I'm keeping a FOS on you, Zoggie. You too, drain.There is logic to it, though. I'm feeling a bit nervous now, now realizing fully how fast the body count is going to pile up, and we need to key in on what we can for scum quick. There are an awful lot of critical Town roles that we need to sniff out the three scum sides, and we can't afford to be sacrificing too many Town for info... and this does seem a reliable tell that makes Diggit unlikely to be any of the aforementioned town roles.

Also, it could make sense that someone would be most familiar with information about their own side, to a point - we all want to see where we personally fit in with our team.

Does that condemn Diggit? No, but it does put the odds much further in favor that he is scum, because he's effectively established that he can't be a significant number of Town roles, plus I believe Coroner has been reliably taken (unless the existing Coroner is a complete fool) so that further narrows it down.

I'll be looking back on his posting history but I think it's one of the best leads we've gotten today. The immediate FOS on people who keyed in on it, too, concerns me.

Freudian Slit

10-06-2007, 11:42 AM

So he could still be a Witch, Detective, Vicar, Seer, Coroner? That's up to one of 7 roles, and you're voting for him because it's highly unlikely that he's one of the minor pro-town roles?

I'm keeping a FOS on you, Zoggie. You too, drain.
FOS?

Well, it's all we have so far. I just feel like wouldn't someone who was majorly Town (Detective, Vicar, Witch, etc.) know more about the specific Town roles? Almost certainly Detective or Coroner would because they have to investigate specific roles. I guess he could be Seer or Witch if we have them. (And yes, the Coroner role has sort of been taken.)

ShadowFacts

10-06-2007, 12:07 PM

Having one post of substance is not the same as lurking. He had several posts, they just didn't say much. What he was doing was advocating a vote for someone who had yet to post, on an experienced player who we all know will most likely be dominating the conversation at some point. I think voting for lurkers on Day One is scummy because it could invite a bandwagon, and potentially lynch a major town power role just because a person is AFK. You can't count your one vote for a lurker in a vacuum, especially in a game in which you only need a plurality to lynch.

Well, I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree about lurker voting strategy. I personally voted for several lurkers yesterDay, some others joined in, and once the absentees appeared and posted something of substance, the votes disappeared. None were ever in any real danger of being lynched, because they showed up. So I don't share your concern about bandwagoning. Nevertheless, it's not much use arguing about it - you go your way, I'll go mine.

Now, I will say that I agree with you and fluiddruid that Diggit's slip up indicates that he is probably not a Freemason, Scotsman, Vigilante, or Magician. I hesitate to draw any other conclusions than that, though.

Kat

10-06-2007, 12:07 PM

There is one thing: If the person was enchanted by the Witch Doctor, they'll come back to life, without having revealed their identity. If amrussel was a Witch, or Seer, or even the WD, and claimed freemason in order to give himself some more time to be able to give the town some information (thinking that the scum woulnd't bother trying to kill a Mason), it would make sense for the coroner to want to hide that information pending the results of ressurection.

The problem with this idea (which I considered for a short time) is that when another Freemason checked him out and found out that amrussell wasn't a Freemason, he'd have been outed and lynched Day One. And we wouldn't be very likely to believe a subsequent roleclaim of Witch, Seer, or whatever, even if it were true.

sachertorte

10-06-2007, 12:38 PM

Just a quick note:
I use the term 'Alignment' where Pleonast uses the term 'Side.'
I have given the town sufficient information to confirm my role.

HazelNutCoffee

10-06-2007, 12:49 PM

Just a quick note:
I use the term 'Alignment' where Pleonast uses the term 'Side.'
I have given the town sufficient information to confirm my role.
Your Role description says you can confirm the Role of each dead Player. Is there a particular reason why you only have amrussell's Side/Alignment?

(Whenever I read Alignment I keep thinking Chaotic Evil or Lawful Good, etc. :smack: )

MHaye

10-06-2007, 01:08 PM

FOS?

Well, it's all we have so far. I just feel like wouldn't someone who was majorly Town (Detective, Vicar, Witch, etc.) know more about the specific Town roles? Almost certainly Detective or Coroner would because they have to investigate specific roles. I guess he could be Seer or Witch if we have them. (And yes, the Coroner role has sort of been taken.)Finger of Suspicion. It means he's actively suspicious of you.

Remember that there's no guarantee that there is only one of a specific role; there could easily be two Coroners, or two Magicians and (say) no Seer. The only ones guaraanteed to exist in multiples are Freemasons (minimum of 2) and Witches "Three exactly) if they are in the game.

Santo Rugger

10-06-2007, 01:10 PM

FoS to everybody demanding sach to reveal more info.

If sach is telling the truth, revealing more than simply "town" is not necessary.

If he's lying, we'll find out soon enough.

Demanding him to reveal more is fishing for information that is much more useful to scum than it is to town.

Rysto

10-06-2007, 01:19 PM

There is one thing: If the person was enchanted by the Witch Doctor, they'll come back to life, without having revealed their identity. If amrussel was a Witch, or Seer, or even the WD, and claimed freemason in order to give himself some more time to be able to give the town some information (thinking that the scum woulnd't bother trying to kill a Mason), it would make sense for the coroner to want to hide that information pending the results of ressurection.
I would really hope that no one would consider trying to pull a Winston in this game. Townies should not claim roles that they don't have; when it comes out that you're lying nothing will save you. We have enough problems with the scum lying to us.

CatInASuit

10-06-2007, 01:22 PM

FWIW, here is a list of Fretful Porpentine's posts over Day 1 for record.

Post 180 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=9026727&postcount=180) Comment on the game rules and mass role claims.
Post 234 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=9029798&postcount=234) Comment on the Vicar role
Post 245 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=9031364&postcount=245) Comment that we have to have a lynch
Post 283 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=9032800&postcount=283) Is unsure about OAOW and sachertorte, then votes fluiddruid for lack of a better idea
Post 286 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=9032850&postcount=286) Comment on HOS
Post 293 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=9033101&postcount=293) Unvotes fluiddruid now she is posting again
Post 346 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=9034867&postcount=346) Comment on verifying town roles, is willing to consider no-lynch with reservations.
Post 383 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=9035821&postcount=383) Comment on amrussell's ideas
Post 456 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=9038064&postcount=456) Votes OAOW and provides reason

Here is a list of OAOW's posts over Day 1 for record.

Post 181 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=9026863&postcount=181) Votes Mhaye over soapbox speech
Post 226 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=9029504&postcount=226) Comment on blessing corpses.
Post 242 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=9031058&postcount=242) Comment role claim and no-lynch
Post 247 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=9031486&postcount=247) Asks for votecount
Post 251 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=9031600&postcount=251) Request for people to vote
Post 267 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=9032100&postcount=267) Comment on his vote for MHaye
Post 269 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=9032173&postcount=269) Comment on sachertorte following his vote.
Post 275 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=9032588&postcount=275) Comments his vote was random, and 3rd vote (sachertorte's) is start of a bandwagon
Post 284 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=9032809&postcount=284) Comments on his vote and now finds sachertorte and MHaye suspicious
Post 325 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=9034396&postcount=325) Comment on lynching Freemasons as in yes he would cheerfully do it.
Post 328 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=9034439&postcount=328) Comment on claims & counter claiming
Post 331 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=9034493&postcount=331) Comment on voting/unvoting on certain town power roles
Post 335 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=9034557&postcount=335) Comment on claiming
Post 337 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=9034681&postcount=337) Comment on lynch strategy
Post 341 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=9034774&postcount=341) Comment on verifying town roles
Post 359 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=9035152&postcount=359) Comment on multiples of roles
Post 439 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=9037388&postcount=439) Gives of list of possible scum, MHaye, sachertorte, Diomedes, unvotes MHaye, votes sachertorte
Post 441 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=9037468&postcount=441) Comment on tying votes
Post 445 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=9037713&postcount=445) Comment on scum (and factions) voting for each other
Post 447 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=9037783&postcount=447) Unvotes sachertorte (after roleclaim)
Post 453 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=9037981&postcount=453) Comment on lynching strategy
Post 459 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=9038117&postcount=459) Gives reasoning for current actions
Post 481 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=9038617&postcount=481) Roleclaims vigilante
Post 483 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=9038638&postcount=483) Votes Pygmy Rugger

I think I have got the lot.

CatInASuit

10-06-2007, 01:38 PM

My main reason for collecting all those posts together was sparked off by something Rysto said below.

I expect this goes without saying but until sachertorte's claim is validated by Pleonast we can't use his information. We have no idea whether this information is correct and it's possible that sachertorte is scum and is trying to lead us wrong for a Day before getting lynched himself. I know that it's tempting to follow up what could be our first piece of solid information, but we can't afford to take the chance that sachertorte is scum.

So until sachertorte has had his case proven one way or another, we cannot believe his claim. Fair enough. But you then say that we should not follow up on his information because he could be scum.

This would indicate that you do not think it is worth looking at Fretful's or OAOW's posts until we know what side they were on as given by Pleonast. Why would that be the case?

Is it not worth following up on not just their posts, but also on who interacted with them over the course of the day.

Finally, can you explain your thinking in these posts

Vig is verifiable. Don't lynch OAOW. Vig, kill OAOW if he's lying.

At this point don't have time to lynch anybody else. I hate myself for this, but:

Unvote Idle
Vote no lynch

Explanation for this is pending in my next post, but I wanted to get this out right away.
As far as I can tell your vote for no-lynch was based on the fact you could verify him. How would you be able to verify the Vigilante without getting an investigative town role to claim and prove OAOW's innocence? What am I missing that would make it possible to verify the Vigilante without harming the town in any way?

Ok, I know that I've very against no lynch all day long, but the only thing worse than a no lynch is lynching a known Townie.
And how did you know he was a known townie??

Some answers please, Rysto.

Kat

10-06-2007, 01:39 PM

Aside from the traditional "busing" that can go on between members of the same scum faction, in this game we have multiple scum factions. So yes it is easily possible for one scum to be voting another.

So then, based on this post, how likely is it that one of the people the OAOW FOSed or voted for is another Cabalist?

Idle Thoughts

10-06-2007, 01:39 PM

I'm not sure that the more time we have, the more roleclaims we're going to get.

Seems more likely. I mean say we all get votes in early. Well, someone's gonna have the most votes, probably..and that being the case, they'll probably role-claim. What then? Well, everyone then unvotes said player and gives a majority of votes to another. Then THAT one roleclaims and so everyone unvotes and goes onto someone else. Etc, etc...until we have about six or seven roleclaims in the last twenty four hours.

I don't see why it has to be either vote way in advance or vote at the last minute. Whatever happened to just voting when you feel like it? I don't agree with always being at either ends of the extreme, both have disadvantages for true Townies, I feel.

Now, if we have 24 hours to work with, there is much less pressure to unvote and we can force the claimee to explain him- or herself.

I hear and get what you're saying but I just fear it will lead to the above scenerio much more likely.

It's also possible that a Townie may decide NOT to roleclaim, since there are 24 hours to go, and try to get out of the noose without revealing their identity. In which case, having more time could result in less roleclaims.

I dunno. I'm dubious. I've been playing this game Dope style for awhile and I don't usually see that. Not the one with the most votes, at least. The one with the most votes usually seems to stay a suspect on a lot of people's lists. I have no cites, though, because I don't feel like searching through millions of pages of past Mafia games :p but it's just been what I've seem to observe in my history of playing this game

Didn't work out so hot yesterDay.

PS. Making a proposal and putting it up for discussion is not what I would call "telling others how to play." YMMV.

You're right. I guess I just read your post being a bit more forceful than that. If it wasn't intended, well, okay.

Idle Thoughts

10-06-2007, 02:03 PM

Anyway, just caught up and, right now, the person I think is the most suspicious is Diomedes although there is some on Diggit. Good catch, Drain Bead.

In this post (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=9046992&postcount=572) he seems to make a mistake akin what people are getting on DiggitCamara about. Not knowing much about Town roles are we? And yes, I did read your explaination afterwards but it seems like backpedeling a bit.

Then, here (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=9047253&postcount=576) he seems to defend sach some. Well, nothing there too much but in reply number 578, he does so a bit stronger, even giving sach an out/reason.

Then he defends DiggitCamara in this post (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=9047417&postcount=580).

Why are you defending so many people so much?

FoS to everybody demanding sach to reveal more info.

If sach is telling the truth, revealing more than simply "town" is not necessary.

NOT true. Dunno where you get that logic from but sach COULD be lying and be a Cabalist.

Suppose this: Sach is a Cabalist and therefore knows that OAOW is a fellow one. He then marks him as that, amrussell as Town (believing him to really be a Freemason, but NOT SURE), and taking a wild stab at Fretful. Now suppose he (sach) is lucky and Fretful IS a wolf? Then everyone is going to believe him when, in fact, he is really lying.

I think it's best for the/a coroner to be as specific as they can be regarding what people were when they died. After all, they're dead. If they stay dead, WHO CARES what their specifc role is? And even if they're ones who died at Night and are enchanted by the/a Witchdoctor, it doesn't matter because when they come back to life, they'll know their killer.

So color me purple (confused :confused: get it? :D ) why you're thinking this.

Note: I don't believe or disbelieve sach at this point. I don't know what to think.

Kat

10-06-2007, 02:03 PM

For now, I'm tentatively assuming that either:

1) sach is legitimate. If he's lying, then he's definitely not Town, and there's too much chance of guessing incorrectly on the alignment/role. For example, if OAOW is a Wolf, then sach has just revealed to both the Wolves and the Cabalists that he's Undead (with one possible exception - see option 2).

2) The only other likely and safe explanation is that both sach and OAOW were both Cabalists, which is why sach could accurately nail OAOW's role. Of course, there's still the chance that he's wrong about amrussell and Fretful, which throws us back to option 1 when you add those IDs to the consideration. Especially since Fretful didn't have any strong scum tells that I saw, and even if sach saw something, how could he be positive it was Wolf scum and not Undead scum?

Rysto

10-06-2007, 03:25 PM

So until sachertorte has had his case proven one way or another, we cannot believe his claim. Fair enough. But you then say that we should not follow up on his information because he could be scum.

This would indicate that you do not think it is worth looking at Fretful's or OAOW's posts until we know what side they were on as given by Pleonast. Why would that be the case?

Is it not worth following up on not just their posts, but also on who interacted with them over the course of the day.
What can we conclude from who they interacted with? We don't even know their alignment for sure at this point; for all we know, they could be Town. Until we have confirmation of their alignment, we can't learn a heck of a lot from their posts.

Finally, can you explain your thinking in these posts

As far as I can tell your vote for no-lynch was based on the fact you could verify him. How would you be able to verify the Vigilante without getting an investigative town role to claim and prove OAOW's innocence? What am I missing that would make it possible to verify the Vigilante without harming the town in any way?
Huh, I thought that I had posted this. It must have come up earlier in the Day. Anyway, Vig is verifiable in that the real Vigilante can kill any false claimants with impunity. It would only fail if there was no Vig(definitely possible, and I didn't give that enough thought because we didn't have enough time in between the role-claim and the end of the day, so get your votes in ahead of time, people) or if there were two Vigs(possible but very unlikely IMO).

And how did you know he was a known townie?
A verifiable Town claim is as good as a known townie. Now, in retrospect a Vig claim wasn't quite that good. To be honest, I'm still not sure if I made the right play pushing for a no lynch at the end of yesterday, but I thought that a Vigilante claim was a rather dangerous false claim to be making so I figured OAOW was telling the truth.

fluiddruid

10-06-2007, 03:43 PM

Your Role description says you can confirm the Role of each dead Player. Is there a particular reason why you only have amrussell's Side/Alignment?I would really like to know the answer to this as well. What benefit is there to Town from secrecy?

fluiddruid

10-06-2007, 03:54 PM

2) The only other likely and safe explanation is that both sach and OAOW were both Cabalists, which is why sach could accurately nail OAOW's role. Of course, there's still the chance that he's wrong about amrussell and Fretful, which throws us back to option 1 when you add those IDs to the consideration. Especially since Fretful didn't have any strong scum tells that I saw, and even if sach saw something, how could he be positive it was Wolf scum and not Undead scum?I don't know. It is an awfully risky role to claim especially so early... granted sach is a skilled player, and sowing confusion could have value, but ... I'm not sure that makes up for the value of getting offed so early in the game (which is what certainly will happen soon enough).

While I'm not confident to hinge a lynch on sach's alignment post (not that we could just yet), I just tend to think that a fake role claim as the coroner wouldn't make sense.

The only thing I could see sach being, other than the Coroner, is a pro-town role trying to draw the first night's kills or something, but I would imagine the real Coroner would prove of limited value without outing themselves relatively soon.

In any case I imagine we'll find out soon enough. I have a feeling sach has a method to his madness, so I'm fine giving him immunity for the time being.

MHaye

10-06-2007, 04:00 PM

As far as I can tell your vote for no-lynch was based on the fact you could verify him. How would you be able to verify the Vigilante without getting an investigative town role to claim and prove OAOW's innocence? What am I missing that would make it possible to verify the Vigilante without harming the town in any way?Huh, I thought that I had posted this. It must have come up earlier in the Day. Anyway, Vig is verifiable in that the real Vigilante can kill any false claimants with impunity. It would only fail if there was no Vig(definitely possible, and I didn't give that enough thought because we didn't have enough time in between the role-claim and the end of the day, so get your votes in ahead of time, people) or if there were two Vigs(possible but very unlikely IMO).

A verifiable Town claim is as good as a known townie. Now, in retrospect a Vig claim wasn't quite that good. To be honest, I'm still not sure if I made the right play pushing for a no lynch at the end of yesterday, but I thought that a Vigilante claim was a rather dangerous false claim to be making so I figured OAOW was telling the truth.Unfortunately, this is simply wrong. Pleonast has explicitly stated that there could be multiples of any given role - any role - in the game. Thus just because we had a claimed Vig does not mean that a player with the Vig role can assume that the claimant was not a Vig.

Frankly Vig is a very easy roleclaim. All the claimant has to do is sit on his hands "waiting to be sure" for two or three days. The only way to out the fake becomes Witch or Seer investigation. Especially if he's a Cabalist who doesn't go out killing. Another Vig can't kill with impunity until the fake is exposed - because a real Vig might well behave like that.

Rysto

10-06-2007, 04:03 PM

I'm well aware of what Pleonast has said, and I stand by my statement that I find it quite unlikely that there are more than one Vig in this game.

Anyway, the point is moot, because OAOW is dead.

MHaye

10-06-2007, 04:10 PM

I'm well aware of what Pleonast has said, and I stand by my statement that I find it quite unlikely that there are more than one Vig in this game.That is your belief, and you may well be right. But it's a bad idea at this stage of a Mafia game to completely discount other possibilities. People who want to narrow possibilities early always twinge my scumdar, so you've just picked up a pointer.

Anyway, the point is moot, because OAOW is dead.And what happens if there is a vig in the game who isn't OAOW? And we call him (or, as it may be, her) to the noose? We have no guarantees that it can't happen again.

Rysto

10-06-2007, 04:13 PM

Then we deal with it then. Why does everybody insist on coming up with strategies to deal with every possible scenario? We can't possibly do that. We have to play this by ear.

CatInASuit

10-06-2007, 04:13 PM

I'm well aware of what Pleonast has said, and I stand by my statement that I find it quite unlikely that there are more than one Vig in this game.

Anyway, the point is moot, because OAOW is dead.

Actually the point is not yet moot.

1. We do not know if there is a Vigilante in the game.
2. We have yet to determine if OAOW is the vigilante or not and cannot be certain until Pleonast has stated it.
3. The issue I am concerned about is now over your actions shortly before the end of day. They could be interpreted as someone trying to save the person being lynched. If OAOW does turn out to be Cabal, it might be interpreted as you trying to save a fellow Cabalist for at least one more night.

Comment?

Rysto

10-06-2007, 04:20 PM

Actually the point is not yet moot.
The point under contention is my strategy is dealing with OAOW's role claim. As he is now dead, the point is moot.

3. The issue I am concerned about is now over your actions shortly before the end of day. They could be interpreted as someone trying to save the person being lynched. If OAOW does turn out to be Cabal, it might be interpreted as you trying to save a fellow Cabalist for at least one more night.
If I were a Cabalist, I wouldn't trade my own life to postpone the lynch of a fellow Cabalist. I'd have to be an idiot to put my neck on the line like that.

MHaye

10-06-2007, 04:32 PM

Then we deal with it then. Why does everybody insist on coming up with strategies to deal with every possible scenario? We can't possibly do that. We have to play this by ear.The problem I have is that you seem to be locking yourself into a particular assumption about the setup. I know from last game how bad that could be.

Speaking about last game, I'm forgetting one of my own lessons.

When I roleclaimed in M5, I kept back information about my investigations in order to avoid giving the Cult a hand. I'm quite sure that's all Sachertorte is doing. I should have, but did not, consider the possibility that Sach had not passed everything he knew to us.

:smack:

Sorry Sach. My initial reaction to your announcement of alignment was wrong.

DiggitCamara

10-06-2007, 06:22 PM

Actually the point is not yet moot.

1. We do not know if there is a Vigilante in the game.
2. We have yet to determine if OAOW is the vigilante or not and cannot be certain until Pleonast has stated it.
3. The issue I am concerned about is now over your actions shortly before the end of day. They could be interpreted as someone trying to save the person being lynched. If OAOW does turn out to be Cabal, it might be interpreted as you trying to save a fellow Cabalist for at least one more night.

Comment?
1. Absolutely right
2. Absolutely right. I'd add that we don't know if sachertorte's claim is right, just yet. We will know next dawn, though.
3. I don't think that's really likely. It might be, though, I'll have to look at the last couple of posts last Day. The thing I'll be looking for is a "soft defense" by someone at the end of the Day, when OAOW was about to be lynched.

DiggitCamara

10-06-2007, 06:27 PM

The problem I have is that you seem to be locking yourself into a particular assumption about the setup. I know from last game how bad that could be.

Speaking about last game, I'm forgetting one of my own lessons.

When I roleclaimed in M5, I kept back information about my investigations in order to avoid giving the Cult a hand. I'm quite sure that's all Sachertorte is doing. I should have, but did not, consider the possibility that Sach had not passed everything he knew to us.

:smack:

Sorry Sach. My initial reaction to your announcement of alignment was wrong.
Why? We will know amrussell's alignment at the end of this Day. We won't know his Role until the next Day ends. If he announces his role, we have solid confirmation of sachertorte's knowledge and he would be a confirmed townie from now on.

Of course, if his other two alignment confirmations are on the money, it's likely he's confirmed anyway. Still: why shouldn't he give us amrussell's role? Or, for that matter, why shouldn't he give us, for the supposed Werewolf's role (if it wasn't one of the run of the mill Werevolves?)

MHaye

10-06-2007, 06:44 PM

Why? We will know amrussell's alignment at the end of this Day. We won't know his Role until the next Day ends. If he announces his role, we have solid confirmation of sachertorte's knowledge and he would be a confirmed townie from now on.

Of course, if his other two alignment confirmations are on the money, it's likely he's confirmed anyway. Still: why shouldn't he give us amrussell's role? Or, for that matter, why shouldn't he give us, for the supposed Werewolf's role (if it wasn't one of the run of the mill Werevolves?)Back in M5 I opted to hide the true role of two of the players. With one, it was to avoid giving the Cult extra info. My main concern was that I was convinced the Cult hadn't done something so silly as to recruit with an unknown number of players immune in their own person to recruitment, and I didn't want to tell them that Sachertorte was one.

Suppose that Sachertorte is now in a similar position - namely that amr told the truth about his alignment but not about his role. Suppose that he had an extremely valuable role but didn't want to reveal it in order to avoid giving information to one of the killing scum groups that let them play around his power? Sachertorte could be suppressing the rolename because, knowing what amr was, he doesn't want to give the Wolves and/or Undead that info either, for as long as possible.

I didn't think of that until too late.

Kat

10-06-2007, 07:46 PM

MHaye

10-06-2007, 08:02 PM

That possibility has been brought up already. My reaction to that? See post 588.The problem with this idea (which I considered for a short time) is that when another Freemason checked him out and found out that amrussell wasn't a Freemason, he'd have been outed and lynched Day One. And we wouldn't be very likely to believe a subsequent roleclaim of Witch, Seer, or whatever, even if it were true.If you can explain that away, then I'll be happy to consider it.No Mason would know whether the claim was true or false on Day 1, because they won't be informed of the results of the test until the end of the Day. Thus any refutation of a Mason claim cannot occur until Day 2 or even Day 3, if the Masons had burned their powers on testing other people before the claim occurred.

That's the same with all Day powers, by the way - the results are held until the end of the Day, and not learned immediately. See post 236.

Kat

10-06-2007, 08:17 PM

:smack:

Okay, I feel stupid now.

ShadowFacts

10-06-2007, 09:17 PM

Why? We will know amrussell's alignment at the end of this Day. We won't know his Role until the next Day ends. If he announces his role, we have solid confirmation of sachertorte's knowledge and he would be a confirmed townie from now on.

Of course, if his other two alignment confirmations are on the money, it's likely he's confirmed anyway. Still: why shouldn't he give us amrussell's role? Or, for that matter, why shouldn't he give us, for the supposed Werewolf's role (if it wasn't one of the run of the mill Werevolves?)

I admit I hadn't considered the possible downside of sachertorte revealing amrussel's Role in addition to his Side. There is an argument there for holding that info back, although, in my opinion, it would be more beneficial to have 3 confirmed corpses and 1 confimed Townie. Nevertheless, I can respect that opinion if that's how sach wants to play it.

HOWEVER, if sachertorte does NOT reveal anyone's Role, but only reveals Sides, I will not consider him 100% confirmed, even if he gets all the sides right. Maybe after several Days of getting all the Sides right, I will believe him. But even though the odds are against it, if he is lying scum, he could get lucky.

Final point: even with all of the above, as far as I can tell, there is NO reason not to reveal the Role of Fretful Porcupine. It would be very beneficial to know, for example, if we nailed the Omega Wolf as opposed to just a Wolf. Can anyone tell me why we should not get that info? Cough it up, sach.

fluiddruid

10-06-2007, 09:55 PM

I think some good points were made... I think, in retrospect, it does make a lot of sense to withhold the role of Townies. Revealing town roles is much more likely to aid scum than anything in a lot of cases so I'll withhold judgement for now.

But, also agreed, this doesn't make sense for scum. Was our wolf one of the wolves with a special role?

Boozahol Squid, P.I.

10-06-2007, 10:00 PM

In this post (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=9046992&postcount=572) he seems to make a mistake akin what people are getting on DiggitCamara about. Not knowing much about Town roles are we? And yes, I did read your explaination afterwards but it seems like backpedeling a bit.

Don't be a schmuck, Idle . If you reverse the "Role" and "Alignment" in th efirst sentence of my post, you'll get exactly what i meant. I wasn't confused, and I'm not backpedalling. Please explain to me what sort of diabolical plan you think I have that is predicated on reversing those two words once in a post.

Then, here (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=9047253&postcount=576) he seems to defend sach some. Well, nothing there too much but in reply number 578, he does so a bit stronger, even giving sach an out/reason.
I can't think of a reason not to defend sache right now. If he's not the coroner, it will come out very soon when he screws up the Role/Alignment identification. There's no possible reason to lynch the guy until we have evidence that he's not the coroner, because we know that evidence is shortly forthcoming. I defended him there because I didn't want people to jump the gun on lynching a townie.

Then he defends DiggitCamara in this post (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=9047417&postcount=580).

Why are you defending so many people so much?
I want to say I was defending sache there, as well. And anyways, I wasn't defending anyone there, so much as I was attacking Zoggie and drain 's reasoning.

NOT true. Dunno where you get that logic from but sach COULD be lying and be a Cabalist.

Suppose this: Sach is a Cabalist and therefore knows that OAOW is a fellow one. He then marks him as that, amrussell as Town (believing him to really be a Freemason, but NOT SURE), and taking a wild stab at Fretful. Now suppose he (sach) is lucky and Fretful IS a wolf? Then everyone is going to believe him when, in fact, he is really lying.

I think it's best for the/a coroner to be as specific as they can be regarding what people were when they died. After all, they're dead. If they stay dead, WHO CARES what their specifc role is? And even if they're ones who died at Night and are enchanted by the/a Witchdoctor, it doesn't matter because when they come back to life, they'll know their killer.

Good point. I hadn't thought of the angle of him as a Cabalist. He'd have to be lucky on Fretful, but I think that he needs to get in here toDay and give a more specific accounting of the dead players' Roles.

Boozahol Squid, P.I.

10-06-2007, 10:08 PM

NETA: I don't know what i was thinking in my response to:

Then he defends DiggitCamara in this post.

Why are you defending so many people so much?

Obviously it was in defense of Diggit that I was attacking Zoggie and drain. Anyways, might point there stands. I don't like their reasoning, and I don't like the idea of lynching someone based solely on the idea that they're not a mason or one ofthe minor power roles (IOW as close to Vanilla Townie as we come in this game)

fluiddruid

10-06-2007, 10:09 PM

Good point. I hadn't thought of the angle of him as a Cabalist. He'd have to be lucky on Fretful, but I think that he needs to get in here toDay and give a more specific accounting of the dead players' Roles.I'm not sure of that. I think now that it does make sense for him to withhold Town roles, though I can't think of a good reason for scum.

We don't know how many wolves there are (assuming at least 3) but, if one was going to guess wolf, it would seem not to make sense... after all probability goes with Town, right (presumably, as the game would be extremely unbalanced with a larger individual scum "side" than town)? So if you're going to try to stay off the gallows for a couple days, why wouldn't you play the odds?

That's not even considering that, presumably, there would be another real Coroner out there (given the importance of the role I find it unlikely it's one that could be left out of the game entirely) that could out Sach at pretty much any time.

I am curious why Sach has been basically a nonparticipator today for the most part but I am feeling more confident about this situation the more that it's discussed.

I do think we need to start considering who our lynch nominees should be, though, so it's not a last minute affair.

CatInASuit

10-07-2007, 01:38 AM

The point under contention is my strategy is dealing with OAOW's role claim. As he is now dead, the point is moot.

If I were a Cabalist, I wouldn't trade my own life to postpone the lynch of a fellow Cabalist. I'd have to be an idiot to put my neck on the line like that.

Rysto, thanks for the answers. They fill in a few gaps.

You might not be a Cabalist, but the reactions and strategies of other voters at the time might be interesting as well.

MadTheSwine

10-07-2007, 09:27 AM

Just checking in...been pretty busy.

Freudian Slit

10-07-2007, 12:02 PM

I'm willing to admit that I'm not 100% that I was right about Diggit. But we're going on so little today, it feels. I'm not getting a super strong read on anyone.

sachetorte has been quiet today. He's pretty much got a guaranteed in, though, unless one of his predictions is totally wrong. And since we don't find even one out until dusk, maybe he's trying not to stir anything else up.

HazelNutCoffee

10-07-2007, 01:09 PM

Weekends tend to be quiet, I suppose. People are busier doing stuff, rather than sitting at work procrastinating. ;)

I'm willing to leave sacher alone for the moment, I suppose, since the veracity of his claims will eventually be determined. I guess I was a bit concerned that there could be a way he would be able to know Sides without knowing Roles and fake being the Coroner, but I don't see how this is possible at this point.

Rysto

10-07-2007, 01:16 PM

I say leave sach alone, and if he was wrong on OAOW's alignment, Vig him. If he's wrong on either of the night kills, lynch him tomorrow. We could even let him live Day 3 and Vig him Night 3. That would allow the Vig to let us know whether there really is one in the game.

On the other hand, having that knowledge might help the scum more than the Town. If they know that there's a Vig they'll try to claim some other role instead.

The other problem with Viging him Night 3 is that if he's the Vampire he'd get to kill one more time. Any thoughts?

Rysto

10-07-2007, 01:17 PM

Oh, and the reason that I'd prefer not lynching him even if he's confirmed to be scum is that we won't gain any information from that lynch.

Rysto

10-07-2007, 01:21 PM

Damn no edit rule.

One more thing: Vigging him results in an extra corpse which does help the Necromancer. That's something else to keep in mind. But that line of reasoning means that the Vigilante is totally useless. It depends on what we feel is more valuable: a decreased chance of another Zombie or more information from a lynch on Day 3.

Santo Rugger

10-07-2007, 01:34 PM

I admit I hadn't considered the possible downside of sachertorte revealing amrussel's Role in addition to his Side. There is an argument there for holding that info back, although, in my opinion, it would be more beneficial to have 3 confirmed corpses and 1 confimed Townie. Nevertheless, I can respect that opinion if that's how sach wants to play it.

HOWEVER, if sachertorte does NOT reveal anyone's Role, but only reveals Sides, I will not consider him 100% confirmed, even if he gets all the sides right. Maybe after several Days of getting all the Sides right, I will believe him. But even though the odds are against it, if he is lying scum, he could get lucky.

Final point: even with all of the above, as far as I can tell, there is NO reason not to reveal the Role of Fretful Porcupine. It would be very beneficial to know, for example, if we nailed the Omega Wolf as opposed to just a Wolf. Can anyone tell me why we should not get that info? Cough it up, sach.

Vote ShadowFacts

If sach is lying, we'll find out soon enough. If he's telling the truth, I don't like your pressure on him one bit.

ShadowFacts

10-07-2007, 02:44 PM

Vote ShadowFacts

If sach is lying, we'll find out soon enough. If he's telling the truth, I don't like your pressure on him one bit.

(color removed to avoid confusion)

Interesting. Would you care to answer my question about Fretful's Role from the post you quoted?

Kat

10-07-2007, 02:54 PM

I can see the reasoning behind it the question. There's somewhat of a point behind keeping amrussell's role quiet for now (although I still think he made a big mistake if he did falsely claim Freemason to hide a more critical pro-Town role), but what would be the point behind keeping the Wolf role hidden? I don't see a problem with ShadowFacts asking for either the reason or the role (notice the question right before "Cough it up, sach"? That leads me to believe that an explanation for not giving the role would suffice).

Not to mention the fact that sach might have already given the complete role, if Fretful was, in fact, just a generic Wolf. In which case, no pressure actually exists.

HazelNutCoffee

10-07-2007, 03:35 PM

Not to mention the fact that sach might have already given the complete role, if Fretful was, in fact, just a generic Wolf. In which case, no pressure actually exists.
Either Fretful was an actual Werewolf, or she wasn't. If she wasn't, well, that will be revealed soon enough, and then we can lynch sacher and that's that. If she was, then sacher is either the real Coroner or he is a Werewolf himself. Whether or not he is a Werewolf is easily verifiable with OAOW's true Side - a Werewolf would have no way of knowing who the Cabalists are (unless they got very, very lucky, which is not very probable).

I guess my point is that if sacher is the true Coroner, he has no reason to withhold Fret's real role (unlike amrussell's case), so it seems safe to assume that she was just a generic Werewolf with no special Role. I can't imagine a scenario where sacher is the actual Coroner and is hiding such information.

If sacher isn't the real Coroner, well, again, we'll know soon enough. We're not going to lynch him (IF we do end up lynching him) until Pleonast reveals the relevant information, so fussing over the whole thing now seems somewhat counterproductive.

Kat

10-07-2007, 08:07 PM

Yes, it'll be revealed eventually, and yes, there's a possibility that sach did reveal Fretful's full role as "Wolf". On the other hand, I don't think it's scummy that ShadowFacts is asking about it. In fact, I find it a little bit suspicious that Pygmy jumped all over it as an excuse to vote. An FoS might have been appropriate, as SF's post could be read as overly aggressive, but a vote, with no other evidence of scumminess, feels like a bit much.

Idle Thoughts

10-07-2007, 11:22 PM

A verifiable Town claim is as good as a known townie.

Snipped.

Yeah, but like you said in the sentence after, "not always". : p

If I were a Cabalist, I wouldn't trade my own life to postpone the lynch of a fellow Cabalist. I'd have to be an idiot to put my neck on the line like that.

I'm starting to be sick of this notion. Not from you but from anyone. That "it'd be so stupid" to do something in this game. What basis does that have on anything? Maybe scum will do the most stupid thing they could think of and then use that exact excuse: "If I were scum would I be that stupid?" and everyone would go "hmm, you have a good point".

Well I say phooey to that. I say it'd be ultimate trickery to do something just like that in this game.

Suppose that Sachertorte is now in a similar position - namely that amr told the truth about his alignment but not about his role. Suppose that he had an extremely valuable role but didn't want to reveal it in order to avoid giving information to one of the killing scum groups that let them play around his power? Sachertorte could be suppressing the rolename because, knowing what amr was, he doesn't want to give the Wolves and/or Undead that info either, for as long as possible.

Why would it matter? He's dead now. Even if he's brought back to life by a/the Witchdoctor, he'll A. know the name of his killer and B. if a powerful role, will probably be protected by a/the Doctor (or whatever the protecting role is in this game). If he's brought back by the Necromancer, he can't say either way anyway.

So why does it matter?

Don't be a schmuck, Idle . If you reverse the "Role" and "Alignment" in th efirst sentence of my post, you'll get exactly what i meant. I wasn't confused, and I'm not backpedalling. Please explain to me what sort of diabolical plan you think I have that is predicated on reversing those two words once in a post.[/quote[

No diabolical plan at all. If someone is scum and they did that, then I'd call it a slip up and nothing more. I don't wouldn't think it was any sort of plan. :p

Note, that's the general wording of it. I do not think you're scum. At least not yet. I DO think you're the most suspicious so far, but maybe that's just because it's early in the game.

[quote]I can't think of a reason not to defend sache right now. If he's not the coroner, it will come out very soon when he screws up the Role/Alignment identification.

But he has given no roles yet. Only alignments. So there's nothing to compare it to when we do learn the ROLES of the players.

There's no possible reason to lynch the guy until we have evidence that he's not the coroner, because we know that evidence is shortly forthcoming.

Not really. He's said the side of each player. IF he's a Cabalist, two of those roles he would get right (probably) and the last he could be hoping for a lucky guess on.

It would be much more confirming if he could say if amrussell is a Freemason or not.

Good point. I hadn't thought of the angle of him as a Cabalist. He'd have to be lucky on Fretful, but I think that he needs to get in here toDay and give a more specific accounting of the dead players' Roles.

Then we're in agreement.

I guess I was a bit concerned that there could be a way he would be able to know Sides without knowing Roles and fake being the Coroner, but I don't see how this is possible at this point.

Well, it is possible if one's a lucky guesser. Just one lucky guess it all it takes and then people tend to believe you from there on out.

This is why I feel it'd be much better if he'd say the precise roles.

Oh, and the reason that I'd prefer not lynching him even if he's confirmed to be scum is that we won't gain any information from that lynch.

Huh?

If he's scum, let's not lynch him? Is that what you're saying there?

Vote Rysto

..for this post plus the others above that I've commented on.

And Pygmy, what reason does sach have to be secretive? Does he not KNOW the roles?

I guess my point is that if sacher is the true Coroner, he has no reason to withhold Fret's real role (unlike amrussell's case),

There is no reason to withhold amrssell's role either.

If sacher isn't the real Coroner, well, again, we'll know soon enough.

No, we won't. I don't see the logic behind this at all. Like I said earlier. Sach could be a Cabalist. IF that is true:

1. He says OAOW is a Cabalist. He'll turn out to be right.
2. He believed amrussell was a Freemason, but was not sure. So he just said Town to be safe. If amrussell is telling the truth, sach will turn out to be right.
3. He took a guess at what Fretful was. IF that guess happens to be right, guess what? EVERYONE believes that sach is the Coroner when, in fact, he's not.

Do I think he's lying? Telling the truth? I have no clue. But he will NOT and NEVER be confirmed until he starts being SPECIFIC, at least to me. Someone is a Freemason? Fine. Say it. That way when they turn up as one, we'll know it was a one in 1,000 chance (or whatever the odds would be, I'm not Blaster Master) rather than a one in 4 chance (which it is by just giving the side).

Suppose amrussell really ISN'T a Freemason? Well, then say what he really is and when it's revealed what he is, that's TOTALLY confirmed in my mind.

I just don't get this. What is so special that has to be kept? What could scum use? His role is going to be revealed ANYWAY as long as he's not brought back to life and if he IS brought back to life, he'll be trading a scum for his first death anyway AND probably have protection.

So again, what's the deal here?

Idle Thoughts

10-07-2007, 11:24 PM

A verifiable Town claim is as good as a known townie.

Snipped.

Yeah, but like you said in the sentence after, "not always". : p

If I were a Cabalist, I wouldn't trade my own life to postpone the lynch of a fellow Cabalist. I'd have to be an idiot to put my neck on the line like that.

I'm starting to be sick of this notion. Not from you but from anyone. That "it'd be so stupid" to do something in this game. What basis does that have on anything? Maybe scum will do the most stupid thing they could think of and then use that exact excuse: "If I were scum would I be that stupid?" and everyone would go "hmm, you have a good point".

Well I say phooey to that. I say it'd be ultimate trickery to do something just like that in this game.

Suppose that Sachertorte is now in a similar position - namely that amr told the truth about his alignment but not about his role. Suppose that he had an extremely valuable role but didn't want to reveal it in order to avoid giving information to one of the killing scum groups that let them play around his power? Sachertorte could be suppressing the rolename because, knowing what amr was, he doesn't want to give the Wolves and/or Undead that info either, for as long as possible.

Why would it matter? He's dead now. Even if he's brought back to life by a/the Witchdoctor, he'll A. know the name of his killer and B. if a powerful role, will probably be protected by a/the Doctor (or whatever the protecting role is in this game). If he's brought back by the Necromancer, he can't say either way anyway.

So why does it matter?

Don't be a schmuck, Idle . If you reverse the "Role" and "Alignment" in th efirst sentence of my post, you'll get exactly what i meant. I wasn't confused, and I'm not backpedalling. Please explain to me what sort of diabolical plan you think I have that is predicated on reversing those two words once in a post.

No diabolical plan at all. If someone is scum and they did that, then I'd call it a slip up and nothing more. I don't wouldn't think it was any sort of plan. :p

Note, that's the general wording of it. I do not think you're scum. At least not yet. I DO think you're the most suspicious so far, but maybe that's just because it's early in the game.

I can't think of a reason not to defend sache right now. If he's not the coroner, it will come out very soon when he screws up the Role/Alignment identification.

But he has given no roles yet. Only alignments. So there's nothing to compare it to when we do learn the ROLES of the players.

There's no possible reason to lynch the guy until we have evidence that he's not the coroner, because we know that evidence is shortly forthcoming.

Not really. He's said the side of each player. IF he's a Cabalist, two of those roles he would get right (probably) and the last he could be hoping for a lucky guess on.

It would be much more confirming if he could say if amrussell is a Freemason or not.

Good point. I hadn't thought of the angle of him as a Cabalist. He'd have to be lucky on Fretful, but I think that he needs to get in here toDay and give a more specific accounting of the dead players' Roles.

Then we're in agreement.

I guess I was a bit concerned that there could be a way he would be able to know Sides without knowing Roles and fake being the Coroner, but I don't see how this is possible at this point.

Well, it is possible if one's a lucky guesser. Just one lucky guess it all it takes and then people tend to believe you from there on out.

This is why I feel it'd be much better if he'd say the precise roles.

Oh, and the reason that I'd prefer not lynching him even if he's confirmed to be scum is that we won't gain any information from that lynch.

Huh?

If he's scum, let's not lynch him? Is that what you're saying there?

Vote Rysto

..for this post plus the others above that I've commented on and for the fact that I've been being pinged by scum feelings from him/her on Day One.

And Pygmy, what reason does sach have to be secretive? Does he not KNOW the roles?

I guess my point is that if sacher is the true Coroner, he has no reason to withhold Fret's real role (unlike amrussell's case),

There is no reason to withhold amrssell's role either.

If sacher isn't the real Coroner, well, again, we'll know soon enough.

No, we won't. I don't see the logic behind this at all. Like I said earlier. Sach could be a Cabalist. IF that is true:

1. He says OAOW is a Cabalist. He'll turn out to be right.
2. He believed amrussell was a Freemason, but was not sure. So he just said Town to be safe. If amrussell is telling the truth, sach will turn out to be right.
3. He took a guess at what Fretful was. IF that guess happens to be right, guess what? EVERYONE believes that sach is the Coroner when, in fact, he's not.

Do I think he's lying? Telling the truth? I have no clue. But he will NOT and NEVER be confirmed until he starts being SPECIFIC, at least to me. Someone is a Freemason? Fine. Say it. That way when they turn up as one, we'll know it was a one in 1,000 chance (or whatever the odds would be, I'm not Blaster Master) rather than a one in 4 chance (which it is by just giving the side).

Suppose amrussell really ISN'T a Freemason? Well, then say what he really is and when it's revealed what he is, that's TOTALLY confirmed in my mind.

I just don't get this. What is so special that has to be kept? What could scum use? His role is going to be revealed ANYWAY as long as he's not brought back to life and if he IS brought back to life, he'll be trading a scum for his first death anyway AND probably have protection.

So again, what's the deal here?

Idle Thoughts

10-07-2007, 11:28 PM

How about this then, for those of you saying "well, sach could be protecting more info from scum".....sach just says whether or not amrussell was a Freemason or not. That works, I think. "He was" or "He wasn't". Neat, clean, and if amrussell was lying BUT Town, it would still keep any "info" from going to scum (although, again, I have no idea why the heck anyone is thinking it would matter).

sachertorte

10-08-2007, 08:25 AM

Rysto

10-08-2007, 09:07 AM

I'm starting to be sick of this notion. Not from you but from anyone. That "it'd be so stupid" to do something in this game. What basis does that have on anything? Maybe scum will do the most stupid thing they could think of and then use that exact excuse: "If I were scum would I be that stupid?" and everyone would go "hmm, you have a good point".

Well I say phooey to that. I say it'd be ultimate trickery to do something just like that in this game.
:rolleyes:
Either that I'm a Townie who happened to believe a role claim and tried to save who I believed was a fellow Townie.

Why would it matter? He's dead now. Even if he's brought back to life by a/the Witchdoctor, he'll A. know the name of his killer and B. if a powerful role, will probably be protected by a/the Doctor (or whatever the protecting role is in this game). If he's brought back by the Necromancer, he can't say either way anyway.

So why does it matter?
There is no Doctor, only the Witchdoctor. The Witches can protect but I can't see any other Town role being more important than the Witches themselves.

Huh?

If he's scum, let's not lynch him? Is that what you're saying there?

Vote Rysto

..for this post plus the others above that I've commented on and for the fact that I've been being pinged by scum feelings from him/her on Day One.

Are you serious? Could you have taken that quote any worse out of context? If he's scum, we Vig him. That's what I saying there. He's just as dead either way, but lynching somebody else maximizes our information gain from the Day(at the cost of a slight increase in the chances of the Necromancer resurrecting a Zombie -- and by slight, I mean that it's an increase of 16% on the first Night and it drops every night after that.)

Does everybody else see what I see? Idle Thoughts is taking my quotes out of context to make me look scummy. He's going on how he's pointed out further scuminess on my part toDay -- except that he hasn't. He says that I was so scummy yesterday -- but he won't say when or how. He knows that he doesn't have anything on me but he wants to make you all think that he does.

Vote Idle Thoughts

I thought he was scummy Day One(check the voting record -- I actually voted for him that Day before changing to No Lynch at the last minute) and nothing that he's done today has changed my mind in the least.

Hockey Monkey

10-08-2007, 09:28 AM

Rysto, twice you have said that we can Vig Sach if he turns up scum. OAOW claimed to be a Vig, and he's dead. Did you forget that? We don't know for sure what his alignment or role was yet, but you are assuming quite a bit to say that we can Vig someone. We don't know if there was a Vig to start with, that OAOW was or was not a Vig, and that if he was that there is another one in the game, and that if there is a Vig currently in the game that he will follow direction and take him out. That is a lot of assumption.

MHaye

10-08-2007, 11:16 AM

Status post.

Tonight (Monday 8th) I will be packing bags and preparing for a journey.
Tomorrow I will be flying across the North Sea to stay with my fiancee for a week. I will not be online at all that day.
On Thursday I am going to a wedding (not ours). I'll be offline all that day too.

Other than those days (and the return journey) I will have access but it will be reduced (we have to share her computer).

I plan to reread Today tonight (so to speak) but whether I'll get it done or place a vote remains to be seen. There's still a lot to do.

Pleonast

10-08-2007, 11:21 AM

Only fifty-some hours until the end of the Day. Players with Day Powers: don't forget to PM me your choice of actions.

By the way, I'm saving all PM communications to myself for future public view once the game is over. If you have any strategic thoughts "in the moment" you want preserved (but too incriminating to express in the game thread), just send me a PM with them. I already have some interesting comments from a couple players.

Rysto

10-08-2007, 01:39 PM

All right, I see that I need to clarify my thinking on the Vig sach thing. Note that this entire post will be written under the assumption that sach is lying. If he's not, this becomes a moot point and obviously we should leave sach alone. Here are the scenarios:

If the Role or Side of Lynch Victim reveals that sach is lying, then an entire Night will pass before we would have the chance to lynch sach anyway. Here are the consequences of Vigging sach, if the scum don't choose to kill off sach(if they do choose to off sach, there is no difference to anybody)

- There will be one extra corpse. In the worst case, this will affect us Night 3, by which time there would normally be 7 corpses, 3 blessed by the Vicar(assuming that no night-protects are successful). If we Vig someone, that makes for 8 corpses, 3 blessed. That increases the Necromancer's chances of reanimating a corpse from about 57.1% to 62.5%. On Night 4, the increase would be from 60% to about 63.6%. So you can see that one extra corpse does not hurt us too much here.

- It is confirmed to both the Town and the scum that there is a Vig. This makes a false Vig role-claim very dangerous. It also makes it more likely that a different false claim will pick a Role that isn't used. This is definitely a minus for the Town.

- We lynch somebody else Day 3. A lynch of sach, who is confirmed scum, will yield us no new information. Lynching somebody will yield us information, and that's the most important quality in this game.

Now, if there isn't a Vig this actually turns out quite well for us:
- sach gets lynched Day 3, which is the earliest he would have been lynched anyway

- We know now that there is no Vig in the game. This removes a potential role-claim that the scum could make, making it more likely that they'll claim a role that is in use. Now, it's possible that the Vig would choose not to kill sach but then what good is the Vig to us anyway? If the Vig isn't willing to kill confirmed scum then they're just vanilla townie.

Things get trickier if it's the result from a night-killed player that reveals sach is lying. If we choose to leave sach alone for Day 3 and Vig him Night 3, this would have the following consequences:

- if sach were the Vampire he'd get one extra night kill

- we'd again confirm whether there is a Vig or not, which has the same consequences I mentioned before.

- If there is no Vig then we lynch sach Day 4

This was my thinking. Sorry for not filling in the gaps earlier -- I guess that it wasn't as obvious as I thought.

CatInASuit

10-08-2007, 01:51 PM

You're right, it's really not clear, but makes a certain amount of sense

The upshot of it being that sachertorte is dead as a confirmed scum by Day 4 if he is lying, with the added bonus of confirming if the town does have a Vigilante

If he is telling the truth, he gets left alone.

ShadowFacts

10-08-2007, 01:58 PM

fluiddruid

10-08-2007, 02:04 PM

No, we won't. I don't see the logic behind this at all. Like I said earlier. Sach could be a Cabalist. IF that is true:

1. He says OAOW is a Cabalist. He'll turn out to be right.
2. He believed amrussell was a Freemason, but was not sure. So he just said Town to be safe. If amrussell is telling the truth, sach will turn out to be right.
3. He took a guess at what Fretful was. IF that guess happens to be right, guess what? EVERYONE believes that sach is the Coroner when, in fact, he's not.

Do I think he's lying? Telling the truth? I have no clue. But he will NOT and NEVER be confirmed until he starts being SPECIFIC, at least to me. Someone is a Freemason? Fine. Say it. I think you're ignoring or glossing over a very key point here, Idle, which is that if Sach isn't the coroner, in all reasonable likelihood, someone else is. If that's the case, either they'll stay in the game (and expose Sach) or die (and their role will expose Sach). At best, Sach would buying a couple of days with a coroner role claim, and he couldn't have assumed that at the time -- because I would imagine that, were I the coroner, I would have stepped forward by now (and I'm sure many others agree).

Keep in mind that publicly divulged information helps scum too! We're not dealing with the other Mafia games with a monolithic scum side that knows who all other scum are. They have interest in sniffing each other out, too.

While I think it'd odd, indeed quite odd, that Sach has been so cagey to explain his reasoning and has been nearly a complete nonparticipant Today, if he's lying, we'll find out soon enough. In the meantime I don't think anyone's talking his claims as gospel, so there's no real harm in letting him hang on unless there's a strong reason to lynch. Which there isn't.

In any case I think that we need to start looking at not just Sach but the rest of the players. Sach isn't going to get his lynch today. Who is? If we're going to get our votes in early, we need to start considering this soon.

Idle Thoughts

10-08-2007, 02:07 PM

ShadowFacts

10-08-2007, 02:12 PM

- It is confirmed to both the Town and the scum that there is a Vig. This makes a false Vig role-claim very dangerous. It also makes it more likely that a different false claim will pick a Role that isn't used. This is definitely a minus for the Town.

That assumes that everything happens "normally" at night. A quick look at the Rules shows that there are several variables that could throw a wrench in the plan:

- The Vig could get blocked by the Cabal, leaving only 2 corpses and no way of knowing if one of them was Vigged
- The Wolves could decide not to kill, leaving only 2 corpses and no way of knowing if one of them was Vigged
- Two kills targeting the same person could leave only 2 corpses...
- I am sure there are more that I'm not seeing

The long and the short of it is there is NO WAY to be sure what really happens at night, and we would be foolish to base decisions on those actions.

Idle Thoughts

10-08-2007, 02:14 PM

There is no Doctor, only the Witchdoctor. The Witches can protect but I can't see any other Town role being more important than the Witches themselves.

So nobody is ever protected in this game Nightly then? They're just brought back to life?

Are you serious? Could you have taken that quote any worse out of context? If he's scum, we Vig him.

But you don't know if there's a Vig in this game. Nobody does.
Why don't we just confirm him instead (which is what I'm trying to do)?

If he can reveal if amrussell is a Freemason or not, then that's great.

Does everybody else see what I see? Idle Thoughts is taking my quotes out of context to make me look scummy.

And how did I do that? You're saying let's not lynch scum in the Day, let's let the Vig (who we don't even know is in the game) do it.

But how does the Vig know if sach is scum or Town? :rolleyes: He's not saying any info either way but sides. Hell, a lucky Cabalist could be right on SIDES.

He says that I was so scummy yesterday -- but he won't say when or how.

Yeah, I did. I said I had vibes and pings, which is what this game is all about.

Boy, you sure are defensive over nothing, eh? Nothing if you're really Town. It was a vote, and your first one. No death blow.

More of a reason to keep my vote where it is (as if I needed another).

ShadowFacts

10-08-2007, 02:16 PM

In any case I think that we need to start looking at not just Sach but the rest of the players. Sach isn't going to get his lynch today. Who is? If we're going to get our votes in early, we need to start considering this soon.

Couldn't agree more. Back soon to put my money where my mouth is.

Idle Thoughts

10-08-2007, 02:27 PM

If the Role or Side of Lynch Victim reveals that sach is lying, then an entire Night will pass before we would have the chance to lynch sach anyway. Here are the consequences of Vigging sach, if the scum don't choose to kill off sach(if they do choose to off sach, there is no difference to anybody)

Bolding and size mine.

But you see, Sach has not given any roles yet and, from what I've read, refuses to do so. So there WILL be no confirmation of that. Therefore, nothing to compare it to when Pleo reveals the roles.

- It is confirmed to both the Town and the scum that there is a Vig. This makes a false Vig role-claim very dangerous. It also makes it more likely that a different false claim will pick a Role that isn't used. This is definitely a minus for the Town.

Well, so far, no extra corpse. Just one for scum and Vampire.

- We lynch somebody else Day 3. A lynch of sach, who is confirmed scum, will yield us no new information. Lynching somebody will yield us information, and that's the most important quality in this game.

Uh, wha? :confused:

I thought the the point of the game for Town was to kill scum? How would that not be for the better?

Now, if there isn't a Vig this actually turns out quite well for us:
- sach gets lynched Day 3, which is the earliest he would have been lynched anyway

So, what then? When it's revealed that OAOW, amrussell, and Fretful are "Cabal, Town, and Wolf" respectively, sach will be confirmed in your eyes and mind?

Not mine. Now if he gets right on what amrussell is, that would help.

I think you're ignoring or glossing over a very key point here, Idle, which is that if Sach isn't the coroner, in all reasonable likelihood, someone else is. If that's the case, either they'll stay in the game (and expose Sach) or die (and their role will expose Sach). At best, Sach would buying a couple of days with a coroner role claim, and he couldn't have assumed that at the time -- because I would imagine that, were I the coroner, I would have stepped forward by now (and I'm sure many others agree).

Keep in mind that publicly divulged information helps scum too! We're not dealing with the other Mafia games with a monolithic scum side that knows who all other scum are. They have interest in sniffing each other out, too.

Snipped.

How? There is no info that could help scum if he's dead. What would be the purpose of holding back his role? All sach would have to do is say "Yes, he was a Freemason" or "No, he wasn't a Freemason". How does THAT divulge ANY info?

Rysto

10-08-2007, 02:50 PM

Well, so far, no extra corpse. Just one for scum and Vampire.
...

And this is relevant how? We've had no confirmed scum so far, so the Vig hasn't really had a chance to kill anybody.

Uh, wha? :confused:

I thought the the point of the game for Town was to kill scum? How would that not be for the better?

Why are you being deliberately obtuse? Vigging sach would be the Town killing scum.

DiggitCamara

10-08-2007, 02:51 PM

(snip)
So, what then? When it's revealed that OAOW, amrussell, and Fretful are "Cabal, Town, and Wolf" respectively, sach will be confirmed in your eyes and mind?

Not mine. Now if he gets right on what amrussell is, that would help.

Snipped.

How? There is no info that could help scum if he's dead. What would be the purpose of holding back his role? All sach would have to do is say "Yes, he was a Freemason" or "No, he wasn't a Freemason". How does THAT divulge ANY info?
And, by the time of his death, most freemasons probably had done their "handshake" thingy with him. And would know amrussell's claim was right or wrong. And could tell if sachertorte was lying, right now.

Idle Thoughts

10-08-2007, 02:55 PM

...

And this is relevant how? We've had no confirmed scum so far, so the Vig hasn't really had a chance to kill anybody.

We don't know if there's a Vig in this game. If there is, only they know.

Why are you being deliberately obtuse? Vigging sach would be the Town killing scum.

I'm not. I'm asking you, how would we know if sach was scum or not?

And, by the time of his death, most freemasons probably had done their "handshake" thingy with him. And would know amrussell's claim was right or wrong. And could tell if sachertorte was lying, right now.

Exactly.

ShadowFacts

10-08-2007, 03:12 PM

Quick post here, as I've been hogging the computer and my wife is about to boot me off. I've just reviewed all posts since the start of toDay and taken notes to get a handle on who to vote for. I haven't had time to process, however, so I'm not going to vote right now.

I will say this, though, since it seems my lot in life to persecute non-posters :p
This Day is well over 72 hours old and there are several players with ZERO posts. Not cool, in my book. Time to start playing, people!

Drain Bead

10-08-2007, 03:18 PM

Freudian Slit

10-08-2007, 04:30 PM

I like Rysto's plan, but am afraid that it might fall apart in its execution.

And I do wish that sachertorte would give us more info re: amrussell. But what if he is vindicated at dusk when we get the reveal about OaoW. I'm leaning towards giving him a chance, but a slim one.

HazelNutCoffee

10-08-2007, 05:00 PM

I would rather not lynch sachertorte at this point. I still think there's a good chance that he is the Coroner, and even if he isn't I don't see the rush. He's going to be outed sooner rather than later, isn't he? In the meantime the scum are probably more than happy to keep everyone's attention focused on one spot while they (or the rest of them, if sacher really is scum) slide under the radar.

HazelNutCoffee

10-08-2007, 05:07 PM

Hey, no edit rule!

Freudian Slit

10-08-2007, 05:12 PM

Ah! I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I wanted to rephrase something in my first sentence. I forgot about the no edit rule...:(

Do I get off with a warning or do I have to commit suicide a la the Vigilante now?

DiggitCamara

10-08-2007, 05:35 PM

Ah! I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I wanted to rephrase something in my first sentence. I forgot about the no edit rule...:(

Do I get off with a warning or do I have to commit suicide a la the Vigilante now?
PM Pleonast with the original content (and with the editing reason). That would give him elements to decide what should happen next.

(And unless you just "posted on the wrong board", I don't think there should be a problem) ;) .

MHaye

10-08-2007, 05:57 PM

I don't like Rysto's plan. I don't like it at all. Post 641 sets off all sorts of alarms in my scum tracking centre.

It involves giving orders to a putative town power role. I am against that on principle, because debate and orders (even attempted ones) give the scum bands a chance to manipulate the instructions. Rysto played M2; Rysto should remember why this was wrong. it resulted in the Vig killing off townies.

Power roles should be left free to act as they see fit, with no attempts by the Town to do more than suggest, and only then if the roleholder actively seeks it.

Vote Rysto.

I doubt whether I'll be able to read the thread again for 36 hours or so, but that's still about 8 hours to assess and decide whether I need to change my vote.

nesta

10-08-2007, 06:51 PM

ShadowFacts

10-08-2007, 07:33 PM

I think I understand your plan, although I think if there is still a Vig in this game we should let them do what they want rather than order them around. The biggest problem with this plan is that it's most likely moot either way. As Hockey Monkey pointed out, and unless I missed something you failed to address, is that if sach is lying then we probably already lynched our Vig. True, there could have been two (or more I guess), or sach and OAOW could both be cabal, but the two most likely scenarios are that either sach is telling the truth so no Vig plan is needed, or OAOW was telling the truth and there isn't any Vig left to kill anyone.

nesta pretty much sums up my thoughts on Rysto's Vig plan. The other thing that is currently bugging me about Rysto is that several times in this game he has posted about not wasting time thinking up scenarios, or complaining about "irrelevant" conversations. Then he spends a good part of today going on about this Vigilante plan, which as nesta aptly sums up above is fairly pointless.

On the other hand, he was questioned about it and felt he had to explain himself, so all in all not enough for me to jump on the Rysto bandwagon.

ShadowFacts

10-08-2007, 07:47 PM

Having looked over the Day so far, the person that has pinged me the most is Drain Bead. Her vote for DiggitCamera (post 571) seemed too quick and opportunistically jumping on someone who made a mistake. Was it an innocent mistake? Hard to say at this point, but it hardly warranted a vote IMO. Better to question him about it and maybe eke something out of him. I found her other reasons for voting for Diggit to be reaching.

Then, after all the discussion about sachertorte and his limited reveals, she votes for him before we get any chance to see how acccurate he has been. We've got to give him until at least one reveal from Pleonast before we vote for him. As it stands, his status toDay is pretty much the same as it was yesterDay when he claimed and we all (including Drain Bead) decided to give him a chance to confirm his Role. Now, I have been one of the most vocal proponents of sachertorte giving us more information, or at least some explanations. I am very disappointed that he has continued to be silent. But it would be foolish to lynch him at this point - the spotlight is on him, and if he is scum he won't be able to squirm away. On the other hand, if he is the Coroner and we lynch him now, it would be the height of rashness.

So, with all that said:
Vote Drain Bead

Boozahol Squid, P.I.

10-08-2007, 07:48 PM

You know, Idle has a point.

unvote Diggit
vote Sachertorte

There's no reason not to reveal amrussell's role if you're telling the truth, at least not that I can see. I guarantee that any Freemason in the game would step in to refute you if you are wrong, but if you are right, they will simply remain silent, keeping them and you safe. There are only drawbacks to coming out with the info if you are lying.

There's even less reason to vote for the guy for it. I can't possibly see the disadvantage of waiting a day or two before we actually have a misstep by sache to lynch him.
Why are you jumping the gun on this?

[b]vote: Drain Bead [b]

Boozahol Squid, P.I.

10-08-2007, 07:49 PM

Simulvote!!!

nesta

10-08-2007, 07:55 PM

I have given sufficient information to confirm my role.
At the time Pleonast reveals the Role information of amrussell and Fretful Porpentine (Beginning of Day Four), he will also reveal the Side information of tonight's nightkills. I will happily share the Side information of these individuals prior to Day Four.
sachertorte, I'll chime in to say that just repeating that you have given sufficient information and not addressing people's concerns isn't really helping. I was originally giving you the benefit of the doubt, because I can think of a few scenarios where you wouldn't want to give scum information that would help them, but you seem to be dismissing everyone who questions your decision.

A question of my own: If you are the coroner you should have received at least amrussell's role. You are being very hazy about what information you received about OAOW and Fretful Porpentine, though. Did you receive more information than "cabal" or "wolf" on them?

To repeat a point others have made: I don't see why if you are the coroner that you would hold back information you know about scum. For example, if the Omega Wolf is lynched/killed then the witches and seer can be sure of their investigations, and if you know that it wasn't the Omega Wolf that was lynched/killed then they should know this as soon as possible. If you disagree and think holding back the role of scum might help then please explain why.

Finally, although I can think of reasons to hold out on pro-town reveals, I'm not sure they apply as much when they have already role-claimed. amrussel claimed mason, and I think there are very (and I mean very) few times when pro-town should false-claim. This means that if he was town like you say then he's almost certainly what he claimed to be. If he was a mason I can understand holding back this info just for the small bit of confusion it might cause the scum, and if he wasn't a mason then I can completely understand, but by refusing to give any info you seem to be leaving yourself an out in case he did false-claim. I like Idle Thought's idea of just stating whether or not he was a mason. This and whatever info you have about OAOW's and Fretful's roles (or lack thereof) would go one more step towards verifying you and I don't think it would give the scum any useful information.

Pleonast

10-08-2007, 08:39 PM

Bad, Zoggie! Not beer for you toNight!

He PM'd me and it seems innocuous enough. So no Mod-Kill. However, editing does raise the specter of cheating, so I strongly encourage players not to do it.

Freudian Slit

10-08-2007, 08:57 PM

Bad, Zoggie! Not beer for you toNight!

He PM'd me and it seems innocuous enough. So no Mod-Kill. However, editing does raise the specter of cheating, so I strongly encourage players not to do it.
Er...I'm actually a girl.

So no beer works fine for me. Too much hops and barley for me to take.

Santo Rugger

10-08-2007, 10:43 PM

Unvote ShadowFacts

I've been thinking about this one a lot, and although there may be certain circumstances, I think those who were asking for more info from sach could have been doing so with perfectly good intentions. I think the points that have been brought up concerning him revealing weather or not amr was a mason or not, in particular, have been valid.

Rysto

10-08-2007, 11:36 PM

It involves giving orders to a putative town power role. I am against that on principle, because debate and orders (even attempted ones) give the scum bands a chance to manipulate the instructions. Rysto played M2; Rysto should remember why this was wrong. it resulted in the Vig killing off townies.
Right, because having the Vig working on his own ended up being so much better for the Town. Oh, wait, the Vig killed the Detective and possibly a Mason(I can't remember; but two out of the three deaths on the first night were Masons) on his own.

Rysto

10-08-2007, 11:56 PM

I should clarify further before I get into more trouble. There are obviously a lot of power roles where directing them is bad. In some cases(eg the Witchdoctor or the Warlock) directing them makes them useless. However, I don't see how that applies in this particular instance. If we follow my idea, we're just telling the Vig to kill a known scum. Given that's the entire purpose of the Vig, I'm having trouble understanding why this is such a controversial suggestion.

The other thing that is currently bugging me about Rysto is that several times in this game he has posted about not wasting time thinking up scenarios, or complaining about "irrelevant" conversations. Then he spends a good part of today going on about this Vigilante plan, which as nesta aptly sums up above is fairly pointless.
The "irrelevant" conversations I was complaining about were mostly attempts to come up with a plan for every possible role claim. As I said, there were too many permutations to possibly come up with the perfect plan to deal with any role claim.

My idea deals with a single role-claim that has already been made. Obviously we have to have something in place to deal with it, even if it's just "Lynch him if he's lying".

Anyway, I'm done discussing this. If there is a living Vig, my advice to him or her in the event that sach is lying is to kill him at the first opportunity. If sach were to be exposed as scum before a Vig would have a chance to kill him we can deal with the second half of my idea then.

Idle Thoughts

10-09-2007, 01:09 AM

Then, after all the discussion about sachertorte and his limited reveals, she votes for him before we get any chance to see how acccurate he has been. We've got to give him until at least one reveal from Pleonast before we vote for him.

Snipped.

Why do you and Rysto and a few others I've seen (although not as much as you and Ry) keep saying things like this?

It is false logic.

You're basically saying: "We'll be able to compare these apples with those apples" when really, what we have in the other basket is oranges. Therefore how are you going to know what another apple LOOKS like? You have nothing to compare it to other than the same ol' apples in the same basket.

You keep saying sach will be confirmed and all with Pleonast revealing what the dead were. How? Can you please answer this? Or you, Ry, whom I noticed didn't say anything about it at all when I brought it up earlier? Or someone ELSE who thinks this stuff? :confused:

NOTHING confirms sach if sach is only giving the side ToDay. The role is meant to reveal both sides AND roles. sach is only giving out half of the info. And none of you find this suspicious? WHY is he holding back that other half? Does anyone have a good answer? I do. It's very possible because he doesn't KNOW the roles of the dead players because he isn't the Coroner. Does anyone else have a better explanation to why he'd remain mum about the roles?

Oohhhh, giving scum info you say? And what does "amr was a Freemason" or "amr wasn't a Freemason" give scum, exactly? If he was, then great, tell us and we'll be able to say "HEY, got that right. That was a lot more specific than just "Oh, he's Town". And if he's not and you want to protect Town's best interests...fine. "He wasn't a Freemason" doesn't reveal any info as far as I can see.

There's even less reason to vote for the guy for it. I can't possibly see the disadvantage of waiting a day or two before we actually have a misstep by sache to lynch him.
Why are you jumping the gun on this?

[b]vote: Drain Bead [b]

What misstep? We're asking him just to say whether or not a player was a Freemason. If he's the Coroner, he'd know, wouldn't he?

CatInASuit

10-09-2007, 02:50 AM

Drain Bead

10-09-2007, 06:41 AM

ShadowFacts, I think that it's pretty apparent that my vote is not necessarily to lynch (unless sach really isn't the Coroner) but to provide pressure. You claim that it's okay to throw out a vote (later to be withdrawn if necessary) to pressure a lurker into posting, so why is it suddenly not okay to vote (later to be withdrawn if necessary) to pressure someone who might be scum into proving their allegiance one way or another?

Put it this way. Every Freemason, if they're worth the pixels to read, knows that either amrussell was a Freemason or he wasn't one. And any Freemason in the game would trade their mostly expendable life to catch a scum. sachertorte's continued silence in the face of this point makes me want to vote for him, so I can put the pressure on to prove who he is once and for all. If anything, that's a bit more important than just getting a lurker to post a little bit. Your inconsistency on this bothers me.

Rysto

10-09-2007, 07:23 AM

It is false logic.

You're basically saying: "We'll be able to compare these apples with those apples" when really, what we have in the other basket is oranges. Therefore how are you going to know what another apple LOOKS like? You have nothing to compare it to other than the same ol' apples in the same basket.
Uh, Pleonast is going to give us Side information first, then Role. We'll be comparing apples to apples.

That being said, sach can confirm himself earlier by giving specific Role information. It's easier to guess the Side than the Role. sach, stonewalling like this is only making you look more suspicious.

Boozahol Squid, P.I.

10-09-2007, 09:00 AM

What misstep? We're asking him just to say whether or not a player was a Freemason. If he's the Coroner, he'd know, wouldn't he?

What I'm saying is, is that sachertorte has not yet been confirmed or not. However, if he's not the real coroner, he will be outed at some point by the fact that he'll have guessed wrong on the identity of one of his kills.

I don't know why he's withholding part of his knowledge, but I can see at least a couple reasons why he might, especially if amrussel wasn't a freemason, but another townie role, such as the witchdoctor (who logically would have used his power on himself, and so will be springing back to life tomorrow morning, despite his freemason claim yesterday).

Boozahol Squid, P.I.

10-09-2007, 09:01 AM

Uh, Pleonast is going to give us Side information first, then Role. We'll be comparing apples to apples.

That being said, sach can confirm himself earlier by giving specific Role information. It's easier to guess the Side than the Role. sach, stonewalling like this is only making you look more suspicious.

Yeah, it is making him look suspicious, but I still don't see the point of lynching the guy yet.

HazelNutCoffee

10-09-2007, 09:42 AM

Yeah, it is making him look suspicious, but I still don't see the point of lynching the guy yet.
This is exactly what I've been saying. I think it's odd that some of us are in such a rush to see sachertorte hang toDay.

There's not much else to go on at this point, I feel. There are several people who seem to be in more of a rush than others, and among them I'm going to

vote Idle Thoughts

for the moment.

ShadowFacts

10-09-2007, 09:48 AM

Snipped.

Why do you and Rysto and a few others I've seen (although not as much as you and Ry) keep saying things like this?

It is false logic.

You're basically saying: "We'll be able to compare these apples with those apples" when really, what we have in the other basket is oranges. Therefore how are you going to know what another apple LOOKS like? You have nothing to compare it to other than the same ol' apples in the same basket.

You keep saying sach will be confirmed and all with Pleonast revealing what the dead were. How? Can you please answer this? Or you, Ry, whom I noticed didn't say anything about it at all when I brought it up earlier? Or someone ELSE who thinks this stuff? :confused:

NOTHING confirms sach if sach is only giving the side ToDay. The role is meant to reveal both sides AND roles. sach is only giving out half of the info. And none of you find this suspicious? WHY is he holding back that other half? Does anyone have a good answer? I do. It's very possible because he doesn't KNOW the roles of the dead players because he isn't the Coroner. Does anyone else have a better explanation to why he'd remain mum about the roles?

Oohhhh, giving scum info you say? And what does "amr was a Freemason" or "amr wasn't a Freemason" give scum, exactly? If he was, then great, tell us and we'll be able to say "HEY, got that right. That was a lot more specific than just "Oh, he's Town". And if he's not and you want to protect Town's best interests...fine. "He wasn't a Freemason" doesn't reveal any info as far as I can see.

If you'd take a breath and stop frothing at the mouth so much, you'd probably realize that we are pretty much in agreement about sach and revealing his info. Go back and read everything I've said on the topic. The difference is that I'm willing to let it play out while keeping a suspicious eye on him, while you seem (although you haven't voted for him) to want to lynch him post haste, which in my opinion is foolish.

Hockey Monkey

10-09-2007, 09:53 AM

Drain Bead

10-09-2007, 10:17 AM

ShadowFacts

10-09-2007, 10:21 AM

ShadowFacts, I think that it's pretty apparent that my vote is not necessarily to lynch (unless sach really isn't the Coroner) but to provide pressure.

That may be apparent to you, but I'm not a mind reader. I can only go by what you post, which was this:

You know, Idle has a point.

unvote Diggit
vote Sachertorte

There's no reason not to reveal amrussell's role if you're telling the truth, at least not that I can see. I guarantee that any Freemason in the game would step in to refute you if you are wrong, but if you are right, they will simply remain silent, keeping them and you safe. There are only drawbacks to coming out with the info if you are lying.

Couple things about this. First, several people have thrown out possibilities why sach might not want to reveal amrussell's Role (see posts 578, 612, 614, and 616, for example), so to say that there is no reason is...wrong? Indicates that you didn't read closely? I don't know. Now, you may disagree with those reasons, but that doesn't mean they don't exist. Second, you're pretty much challenging him in that last line that if he doesn't reveal amrussell's Role, then he is a liar (and thus scum). That doesn't sound like a "pressure" vote to me (although I suppose that's a matter of interpretation).

You claim that it's okay to throw out a vote (later to be withdrawn if necessary) to pressure a lurker into posting, so why is it suddenly not okay to vote (later to be withdrawn if necessary) to pressure someone who might be scum into proving their allegiance one way or another?

<snip>

sachertorte's continued silence in the face of this point makes me want to vote for him, so I can put the pressure on to prove who he is once and for all. If anything, that's a bit more important than just getting a lurker to post a little bit. Your inconsistency on this bothers me.

The difference here is that my pressure votes on lurkers are clearly stated as such, and no one has to fear a lynch if they just post a little. Your post above essentially said "reveal amrussell's role or you are a liar." Very different, IMO. I don't see the inconsistency that bothers you, but your mileage obviously varies. :p

ShadowFacts

10-09-2007, 10:23 AM

Hockey Monkey

10-09-2007, 11:09 AM

I don't want to lynch sachertorte Today if he's telling the truth. And the only easy way to figure out if he's telling the truth is to get a simple answer to the question of whether or not amrussell was a Freemason. And since sachertorte is not responding to repeated questioning, the only way to get a response is apparently to vote. Which will be followed by an unvote if it becomes apparent that he was correct (AKA if no Freemasons come forward to refute his answer). So I'm throwing a big fat FOS at anyone who keeps confusing the issue by repeating the strawman that we don't want to lynch sachertorte today. Nobody wants to lynch him...unless he's lying.

I can think of a few people who would want to lynch him today if he's telling the truth. Wolves, Cabalists, and Undead. There may be good reasons why he is holding back information, and yep, he could be lying. I think the town can afford to wait until more information is revealed before pursuing a Sachertorte lynch. He is going to have to give us the info on ALL of the dead and be right about ALL of them. How is waiting a little while a bad thing? I do see the point about the Freemasons being able to confirm, but again, maybe there is a reason we aren't seeing that holding the info is good for the town.

It has crossed my mind that the Coroner is one of the roles not used in the game. Pleonast made the slow reveal a big part of the game dynamic, and to put in a player that can circumvent the system like that....well, I don't think it would be something I would do as a Moderator of this game. However, I am willing to wait until Sachertorte is wrong before lynching him, because if he IS a real Coroner, then his information is extremely helpful and we need to keep him around.

Freudian Slit

10-09-2007, 12:11 PM

sachertorte seems to be in an awkward position. I'm not sure if he's not posting because he wants to preserve the info or if he's not posting because he doesn't actually know.

If he's write about OaoW, though, I'm going to have a hard time wanting to lynch him. Assuming he stays safe till then.

Rysto

10-09-2007, 12:39 PM

Rysto

10-09-2007, 12:41 PM

On the other hand, if he's forced to give the info now he wouldn't be able to use role claims today to come up with a better guess at amr's role. Cough it up, sach.

Unvote Idle
Vote sach

Freudian Slit

10-09-2007, 12:45 PM

We're not going to get Role information from Pleonast until the end of Day 3, so I don't see the purpose of pressuring sach for that information now. I do agree that he should reveal it before then, but I think that we can handle that Day 3.
sach said that the alignment for One and Only Wanderer was Cabal. A Cabalist's role isn't more specific than that, so if at dusk, OaoW is said to be Cabalist, then we can't really test any more specifically--without waiting even longer.

ShadowFacts

10-09-2007, 01:23 PM

Seems that all the discussion today has hinged on whether or not Sachertorte should reveal the roles of the dead, and not who we should be lynching today. We will know soon enough whether or not Sachertorte is lying, so for that reason I'm opposed to killing him today. We don't have very long to decide who or if we should lynch someone today, and because all the discussion has been so focused on one subject, I don't have a good read on anyone. I want to vote, but I don't know who to vote for right now.

Well, we've got three players who have yet to post anything* toDay, with less than 24 hours to go: Hal Briston, Blaster Master, MadtheSwine. I noticed Hal posting in other threads as recently as 40 minutes ago, so he's not AFK. Don't know about the others. If you don't have a better target, perhaps you want to put some pressure on one of them. Just a suggestion, take it or leave it.

* MtS posted one fluff post with no content.

Hockey Monkey

10-09-2007, 01:35 PM

I have taken note their absence. It's not like Blaster Master to not post, but I know he posts in spurts when time allows. He hasn't posted in the Firefly game recently either. MadTheSwine I expect this from. He doesn't give much analysis when he does post either. Hal Briston just got back from a camping trip. I'm OK with putting a little pressure on either Hal or Mad, so for now, I will:

Vote Hal Briston

Get in here and start talking folks!

CatInASuit

10-09-2007, 02:25 PM

Freudian Slit

10-09-2007, 02:38 PM

I'm willing to admit there's not a huge amount against DiggitCamara.

unvote DiggitCamara

Not sure who I'm going to vote for at this point, though...I'm reviewing the thread.

Blaster Master

10-09-2007, 02:43 PM

Still catching up, and I'll have a more substantive post soon, but...

Right, because having the Vig working on his own ended up being so much better for the Town. Oh, wait, the Vig killed the Detective and possibly a Mason(I can't remember; but two out of the three deaths on the first night were Masons) on his own.

[begin hindsight]FTR, I was the Vig in M2, and yes, I killed a mason on Night zero (I can't be blamed for that, since it was a dumb shot in the dark) and both the SK and I killed the Detective the next Night. I'm not sure it's a good case since I was a new player.

OTOH, I think the town-guided vigging is a good example, because town logic doesn't change a whole lot. The worst of it came when we tried to "maximize" our kills. I REALLY didn't believe that Fern Forest was the SK, and I wanted to kill Pygmy Rugger, but I did what the town wanted out of fear of getting lynched. In the end, I got SKed that Night, Fern Forest was a townie, and Pygmy Rugger was scum.[/end 20/20 vision]

IME, it is okay to give a Vig role some suggestions, like "please kill so-and-so" Tonight, but we shouldn't draw any conclusions based on whether that individual does or does not live.

For instance, if that person doesn't die, and there is a Vig, maybe he was blocked, maybe he wasn't as sure as the rest of us, maybe he had a better bead. If he does, maybe some scum is setting up for a false claim later.

IMO, it is seldom a good idea to leave scum alive, especially in a game setup like this where that scum could potentially be a vampire and result in additional deaths. Remember, this IS a game of information, and reducing deaths extends the game which improves our information and, thus, improves our chances of winning.

However, a vig may want to consider stepping in if OAOW is not a cabal, so we can get him out of the way and gain more information tomorrow, otherwise, I don't have any recommendations for him at this time.

As for what the plan, I think it isn't a very good one, but I think it's difficult to say with any certainty whether the motivation is that Rysto is a misguided townie or a disingenuous scumbag, because a difference in strategy is not necessarily a difference in alignment... but, this is enough to make him someone worth keeping an eye on.

Blaster Master

10-09-2007, 02:52 PM

FTR, since there was questioning about where I was this weekend...

Word to the wise, don't eat cream cheese on October 6th that expired on September 1st, or your weekend will be equally...ahem...unpleasant.

fluiddruid

10-09-2007, 02:54 PM

OK,

My thoughts on today and those people who have looked scummy.

1. DiggitCamara. His slip concerning half the town roles.
2. Idle Thoughts: for continually going after sachertorte to reveal amrussell's role.
3. MHaye: If OAOW is Cabal, IMHO you look most likely to be a Cabal member from the interactions on Day 1. This will have to wait until OAOW is confirmed.
4. sachertorte: For not revealing why he is not revealing everything and also looking back at your roleclaim, you said you could tell the Alignment of the lynch. Is this a slip, surely you meant role?

I would really like to hear from MadTheSwine, Hal Briston and Blaster Master as well, because otherwise it is very hard to get a read on them.

From those above, Idle Thoughts is looking scummiest to me and not really listening to other's arguments. Persistance is admirable but not when it looks to be to the scum's advantage. :dubious:

vote Idle ThoughtsI thought most lists would pretty much shape up this way based on my own perceptions, plus perhaps Drain Bead for opportunistic voting. However, I'm not really convinced by most of these "nominees".

First of all, Idle. While I agree that pushing so hard to get roles revealed seems odd, I also find it difficult to believe that scum would stick their neck out so far and so fast. Maybe Idle knows more than I do, or something. But, I've always seen scum to play their cards a little closter to the vest. So, I'm not really convinced.

Agreed on Sach and MHaye: Sach I think we should leave and wait for Dusk, as would your nomination for MHaye as a possible Cabalist.

In the end I haven't seen a lot of new information today, but, I think the best recourse is DiggitCamera. At least in his case we're playing the odds since we've all-but-confirmed Digg out of a number of townie roles. This is really stronger than any of the arguments I've seen so far today.

vote DiggitCamara

Blaster Master

10-09-2007, 03:18 PM

Okay, now for some thoughts on sachetorte. It is 100% NOT in our favor to lynch him today, because we can't have any definite information about him until we can compare his claim against the actual results. Thus, I'm suspicious of people voting for him (here's looking at Drain Bead).

Further, as several have pointed out, there is zero downside AFAICT to giving a firm role for Fretful Porpentine if he's telling the truth because it helps us be a little more sure about his claim, and since no one in their right might would ever openly claim Wolf (with the POSSIBLE exception of MAYBE some obscure end-game scenarios that I'm not even willing to spend time to determine if they exist). Thus, unless you can provide a good reason not to, if you do not provide the actual role and not just the alignment prior to the end of Today, you WILL be receiving my vote without prejudice tomorrow because that is distinctly anti-town behavior and it has only anti-town motivation.

OTOH, giving the role of amrussel is a fairly useless point. If amrussel was telling the truth, then if sachetorte is scum, he would have assumed that and probably said it to make his claim look more confirmed. The coroner would have known this as well, so saying "he's a mason" gives us no way to distinguish the two. OTOH, if he's not, there's no way anyone other than the coroner could have guessed that, ESPECIALLY since claiming that would practically be suicide by any other faction. However, if sachetorte IS the coroner, by specifically NOT giving us that information, he leaves open possibilities to the scum that he would close otherwise. IOW, there's zero benefit to giving us his role, and a potential for a small benefit by not giving it. So I'd actually prefer that he doesn't give use amrussel's role at this time (though, this will likely be different when other pro-town roles die that are less confirmable).

Further, which is one point I don't think anyone has hit on, there is NO way to confirm the coroner, we can only become more sure. It is entirely possible, and actually, not too difficult statistically speaking to correctly guess alignments for a Day or Two which is EXACTLY why he should be giving as much narrowing information as possible that doesn't help the scum.

Now, what I find interesting is Idle Thoughts' discussion about sachetorte possibly being cabal to explain his luck. This doesn't make sense to me, because he seems to ignore the possibility of him being a Wolf who could predict the roles with at least equal likelihood. Plus, consider that OAOW is either Vig or scum, his best chance of guessing his role lies with guessing he's cabal because, if they exist, there's probably about 2-3 of them, and they all have identical roles AFAICT from the rules. Thus, he'd have a 2-3x better chance of being correct at guessing that than if he'd guessed the other scum faction of which sachetorte is not (since my guess at the undead at this point is one necro, one vamp and the wolves are probably alpha, omega, regular...MAYBE 2 regulars).

Either way, I think if sachetorte and Idle Thoughts are both scum, they're probably not on the same side, and I don't like Idle Thoughts' train of thought here at all.

My top two suspects at this point are Idle Thoughts and Drain Bead in that order, because I also found Idle's objections to the 24-hour plan questionable and poorly motivated. And I fully expect a good explanation from sachetorte ASAP.

Vote Idle Thoughts

Idle Thoughts

10-09-2007, 03:34 PM

My thoughts on sachertorte keeping quiet about the roles of the dead. I can think of one reason why he is doing this.

By not revealing amrussell's role he does not provide any extra knowledge to the scum over what they can roleclaim when they are put on the block.

Revealing if he is a freemason, means that we know for certain there are another 1+ freemasons out there, so the scum will not claim it. If he reveals he is not a freemason, then it puts it back in the realms of possibility for a scum roleclaim.[/quote]

But if there is a scummy roleclaiming Freemason when all of them still exist, I doubt they'll last very long. I think Freemason is the worst thing to claim if one is scum because there's always going to be others who know you are lying and the votes will probably go in their favor.

I don't see how knowing or not knowing will stop one from claiming that if they wanted to or anything else. Really, there could be more than one role of anything in this game, and nobody knows what IS in this game, so why would scum be so intent on claiming Freemason?

It doesn't make sense.

Yes, I think that getting amrussell's role is more beneficial to the scum than the town and will be suspicious of those who are determined to get it.

It's not. Read what I put above. It still has flaws that all equate to: It doesn't really MATTER if he gives that info out. Him refusing to do so makes me suspcious of him.

Uh, Pleonast is going to give us Side information first, then Role. We'll be comparing apples to apples.

You still don't seem to be getting it (or you're just being deliberately obtues). I'm trying to think it's the former.

Okay, let's say amrussell is Town. Sach said he was Town, right? So when/if Pleonast says "amrussell is Town", are you saying that will "verify" or "confirm" that sach is the Coroner? Because that's what it seems like you and others are saying.

But sach could easily be a Cabalist who just happened to believe or think amrussell was/is telling the truth and that he is Town. Therefore he says "Oh, he's Town" and nothing more and if/when he's right, he's confirmed because he got one right? Hogwash. GET THE ROLE right and I will be MOSTLY convinced. Is that not what the Coroner role is for?

What I'm saying is, is that sachertorte has not yet been confirmed or not. However, if he's not the real coroner, he will be outed at some point by the fact that he'll have guessed wrong on the identity of one of his kills.

I don't know why he's withholding part of his knowledge, but I can see at least a couple reasons why he might, especially if amrussel wasn't a freemason, but another townie role, such as the witchdoctor (who logically would have used his power on himself, and so will be springing back to life tomorrow morning, despite his freemason claim yesterday).

I don't know why he might. So what do YOU know that I don't know? So what if amrussell was the/a Witchdoctor? Whether sach says it now or we see it when/if amr comes back to life, it makes no difference. We'll know he is anyway and he'll be returning with the name of his killer if I read the rules right. HOWEVER right NOW we can find out if sach is lying or not by having him say if amr was a Freemason or not.

HazelNutCoffee, you're voting for me yet you never answered any questions I asked about the subject?

If you'd take a breath and stop frothing at the mouth so much, you'd probably realize that we are pretty much in agreement about sach and revealing his info. Go back and read everything I've said on the topic. The difference is that I'm willing to let it play out while keeping a suspicious eye on him, while you seem (although you haven't voted for him) to want to lynch him post haste, which in my opinion is foolish.

I do not want to lynch him. Where have I said that? I'm wondering why he's holding back on info that could verify him for sure. It's either because he doesn't know the roles...or...well, I don't know of any other reason! So until someone can tell me, specifically, I can only assume it's the first.

Seems that all the discussion today has hinged on whether or not Sachertorte should reveal the roles of the dead, and not who we should be lynching today. We will know soon enough whether or not Sachertorte is lying,

Snipped.

How?

I don't want to lynch sachertorte Today if he's telling the truth. And the only easy way to figure out if he's telling the truth is to get a simple answer to the question of whether or not amrussell was a Freemason. And since sachertorte is not responding to repeated questioning, the only way to get a response is apparently to vote. Which will be followed by an unvote if it becomes apparent that he was correct (AKA if no Freemasons come forward to refute his answer). So I'm throwing a big fat FOS at anyone who keeps confusing the issue by repeating the strawman that we don't want to lynch sachertorte today. Nobody wants to lynch him...unless he's lying.

I agree wholeheartedly.

Unvote Rysto
Vote Sachertorte

I will unvote immediatly after I hear if amr was a Freemason or not.

Idle Thoughts

10-09-2007, 03:56 PM

Couple things about this. First, several people have thrown out possibilities why sach might not want to reveal amrussell's Role (see posts 578, 612, 614, and 616, for example), so to say that there is no reason is...wrong?

Snipped.

How? You have yet to supply a reason. How about you tell me a reason to keep the info back? Please note: "It could give info to the scum" doesn't work because WHAT info does it give to scum, exactly?

I can think of a few people who would want to lynch him today if he's telling the truth. Wolves, Cabalists, and Undead. There may be good reasons why he is holding back information, and yep, he could be lying.

Am I being whooshed here? If sach is telling the truth (and can prove it by giving roles), what's to stop him from having some sort of protection at Night from someone?

And there you go again saying "there may be reasons". What reasons?

I think the town can afford to wait until more information is revealed before pursuing a Sachertorte lynch.

What info? He could give info right now that would verify him. What info are you looking for? What, that arm is, indeed, Town? And you'll take that as proof? Anyone could guess that.

From those above, Idle Thoughts is looking scummiest to me and not really listening to other's arguments. Persistance is admirable but not when it looks to be to the scum's advantage. :dubious:

How is it to scums advantage? Is there a reason you keep ignoring that question? Do you not have an answer for it?

I hear other's just fine. None of them have answered my question. Neither have you. Everyone is talking about "reasons" and "advantages", yet nobody has said anything of what these are and I can't think of or see of any. There aren't any. If there are, what are they?

Okay, now for some thoughts on sachetorte. It is 100% NOT in our favor to lynch him today, because we can't have any definite information about him until we can compare his claim against the actual results.

Neither am I. But there IS nothing to compare against results yet.

sach said amr is Town and OAOW is Cabal and Fretful is a Wolf.

So, when/if it's revealed that amr is Town and OAOW is Cabal and Fretful is a Wolf, will he be confirmed and verified in your eyes? If so, why? If not, what will do it?

OTOH, giving the role of amrussel is a fairly useless point. If amrussel was telling the truth, then if sachetorte is scum, he would have assumed that and probably said it to make his claim look more confirmed. The coroner would have known this as well, so saying "he's a mason" gives us no way to distinguish the two.[/quote]

Distinguish what two? I've read this whole paragraph over and over and it makes no sense to me.

OTOH, if he's not, there's no way anyone other than the coroner could have guessed that, ESPECIALLY since claiming that would practically be suicide by any other faction.

Guessed what? That amr is Town? Seems like a likely guess, even if one is Wolf or Cabal. That amr is a Freemason or not? He has yet to do that.

Further, which is one point I don't think anyone has hit on, there is NO way to confirm the coroner, we can only become more sure. It is entirely possible, and actually, not too difficult statistically speaking to correctly guess alignments for a Day or Two which is EXACTLY why he should be giving as much narrowing information as possible that doesn't help the scum.

I ask for the million time:

How would saying if he was a Freemason or not be helping scum in any way?

Nobody seems to have an answer for this.

Hockey Monkey

10-09-2007, 04:15 PM

Are you serious Idle? You don't know how we find out if he's lying or not? If he's not the Coroner, he can only guess correctly or he gets lynched. How long can a lying Coroner keep that up? Or he gets lunched or munched and he is revealed in death.

I can see this a few ways:

1. Sachertorte is a real Coroner and all of his info will be correct.
2. Sachertorte is a Cabalist and knows that OAOW was a Cabalist. His first reveal by Pleonast will be correct. He would not know amrussell or Fretful Porpentines alignments/roles and therefore may be wrong about either at the next reveal.
3. Sachertorte is a Wolf and knows that Fretful Porpentine was a wolf, but is taking his chances on OAOW as a Cabalist. Since OAOW's alignment will be revealed before the other two, this is a big chance to take.
4. Sachertorte is a Vampire and doesn't know any of the alignments and claimed to stay in the game long enough for a couple additional night kills.

If either 3 or 4 are true, he will screw up sooner rather than later. If 2 is true, then he may stand a chance of being right on all counts this round, but it will be harder to pin down subsequent victim's alignments. If 1 is true, then Yay! His information will help other roles know what they need to do.

Hockey Monkey

10-09-2007, 04:19 PM

Am I being whooshed here? If sach is telling the truth (and can prove it by giving roles), what's to stop him from having some sort of protection at Night from someone?

??? How is having night protection going to keep him from being lynched?

Pleonast

10-09-2007, 04:33 PM

Hi! Just wanted to start the next page. :p

Hal Briston

10-09-2007, 04:37 PM

Yes, yes...I'm here, and keeping up when work allows (they picked a damned inconvenient time to unload a couple new dumptrucks of work on me). Anyway...

Something I just noticed through the whole bit of amrussell's mason claim and there not being any negating claims...I just looked over the rule sheets again, and noticed this bit: "Omega Wolf: When investigated, appears as a Freemason on the Town Side".

Now I'm not certain if "investigated" refers to the secret mason handshake or not, so I suppose this is a mod question:

Do masons see the Omega Wolf as a fellow mason?

Pleonast

10-09-2007, 04:41 PM

Do masons see the Omega Wolf as a fellow mason?No. Freemasons are the only ones who can detect an Omega Wolf. Seers and Witches will be fooled.

ShadowFacts

10-09-2007, 04:55 PM

So, when/if it's revealed that amr is Town and OAOW is Cabal and Fretful is a Wolf, will he be confirmed and verified in your eyes? If so, why? If not, what will do it?

In answer, I will quote myself from post 616, well before you even started this whole crusade:
HOWEVER, if sachertorte does NOT reveal anyone's Role, but only reveals Sides, I will not consider him 100% confirmed, even if he gets all the sides right. Maybe after several Days of getting all the Sides right, I will believe him. But even though the odds are against it, if he is lying scum, he could get lucky.

I will also say again (for probably the third time now) that I think sachertorte should reveal everything he knows. I will say again that I find it suspicious that he won't explain himself. But maybe he knows something I don't. Maybe I'm missing something that would make it less advantageous for him to reveal. I'm not omniscient and it's a complicated game. I just don't see the harm in waiting. If he's lying, he's going to get something wrong eventually. Meanwhile we view him with suspicion and trust nothing.

Rysto

10-09-2007, 04:58 PM

Are you serious Idle? You don't know how we find out if he's lying or not? If he's not the Coroner, he can only guess correctly or he gets lynched. How long can a lying Coroner keep that up? Or he gets lunched or munched and he is revealed in death.
Idle's point is that if sach is lying, he stands a far better chance of getting lucky and guessing right if he only reveals sides, not roles.

fluiddruid

10-09-2007, 05:17 PM

How would saying if he was a Freemason or not be helping scum in any way?

Nobody seems to have an answer for this.I think the point is that he shouldn't give the actual role if it is beneficial to scum. Knowing for sure that certain other Town roles aren't in play is a scum advantage. I wouldn't object to a yes/no on Freemason, but, then, if sach is concealing something for cause then it would really only confirm that. This way, I imagine, keeps everyone guessing. Frankly, Idle, the way that you're pushing this, would you be satisfied with a simple yes or no without the reason? How would that change your agenda that sach is possible scum?

Idle's point is that if sach is lying, he stands a far better chance of getting lucky and guessing right if he only reveals sides, not roles.Yes, but it doesn't answer my two objections: first, why would sach pick a role so easy to confirm as a role-claim and, second, where is the coroner if not him?

ShadowFacts

10-09-2007, 05:19 PM

Yes, yes...I'm here, and keeping up when work allows (they picked a damned inconvenient time to unload a couple new dumptrucks of work on me). Anyway...

Sorry, I can't let this go. In my travels across the board today I noticed you were posting in a couple of football threads that I read (good posts, btw :) ). Then I noticed that you started a Pit thread (about work, no less) today.

I don't mean to stalk you and I'm not interested in meta-gaming, but you are the one who is bringing up how busy you are at work. If you have time to post in several other threads and start a Pit thread, you have time to post here, IMO. You are lurking, and your behavior is anti-town.

FOS Hal Briston

Blaster Master

10-09-2007, 05:22 PM

How would saying if he was a Freemason or not be helping scum in any way?

Nobody seems to have an answer for this.

I did, look in the vote you quoted.

BTW, your vote for sachetorte pretty much removes my lingering doubt. :D

Freudian Slit

10-09-2007, 05:28 PM

Sorry, I can't let this go. In my travels across the board today I noticed you were posting in a couple of football threads that I read (good posts, btw :) ). Then I noticed that you started a Pit thread (about work, no less) today.
Granted, it is difficult to keep up with this thread. I would think other threads would be less demanding/more escapist. This thread is almost work in itself, even if you are keeping up with each post. I do think it's important that we all make an effort to post, though. It throws off the game if we're suspecting people of not posting for nefarious reasons if it turns out they're busy.

Blaster Master

10-09-2007, 05:31 PM

Sorry, I can't let this go. In my travels across the board today I noticed you were posting in a couple of football threads that I read (good posts, btw :) ). Then I noticed that you started a Pit thread (about work, no less) today.

I don't mean to stalk you and I'm not interested in meta-gaming, but you are the one who is bringing up how busy you are at work. If you have time to post in several other threads and start a Pit thread, you have time to post here, IMO. You are lurking, and your behavior is anti-town.

FOS Hal Briston

FTR, this is a poor reason to vote for anyone. Catching up in mafia takes a significant amount of reading, normally much more than any other thread on the board, and also takes a significant amount of time to make a substantial post. This, I think, is a Red Herring and is a Null Tell.

However, since I'm disinclined to look at all, I can't make a judgment on this aspect, but I would say that a significant number of posts being made could demonstrate this, or simply that he's not in a mindset to play mafia at the time.

Thus, as I've said before, I consider it, at worst, poor form to post, because you're simply not playing. Lurking is a deliberate act of making few posts, and making little impact, which could be indicative of something; meanwhile, simply not posting could mean any number of things, very few of which are related to the game.

I would think it a bit unfair for people who don't really feel like reading up at the moment, or only have a few minutes, to be afraid to do a quick check in another thread they're following because they might be labeled a lurker.

Idle Thoughts

10-09-2007, 05:47 PM

Are you serious Idle? You don't know how we find out if he's lying or not? If he's not the Coroner, he can only guess correctly or he gets lynched. How long can a lying Coroner keep that up? Or he gets lunched or munched and he is revealed in death.

Or he tells us if amrussell is a Freemason or not we can avoid the waiting game.

I can see this a few ways:

1. Sachertorte is a real Coroner and all of his info will be correct.

He's not giving all of his info out so how will we know if it's correct or not? He's only giving out half the info.

2. Sachertorte is a Cabalist and knows that OAOW was a Cabalist. His first reveal by Pleonast will be correct. He would not know amrussell or Fretful Porpentines alignments/roles and therefore may be wrong about either at the next reveal.

I disagree. I don't see how hard it would be to easily guess or deduce that amrussell was Town if one believed his claim.
And as for Fretful, it could be a lucky guess. Someone said earlier there's probably about 40 percent scum in this game being as how all the pro-goodies have power roles. I don't think it'd be hard to take a shot at a guess because if one gets it right, they're all of pretty confirmed, I'd think, to most. That's what it seems like I'm reading.

3. Sachertorte is a Wolf and knows that Fretful Porpentine was a wolf, but is taking his chances on OAOW as a Cabalist. Since OAOW's alignment will be revealed before the other two, this is a big chance to take.

Exactly, so I think this and the fourth one (sach being a Vampire) are the least likely. But if he was a Cabalist, he has a pretty good sporting chance.

If 2 is true, then he may stand a chance of being right on all counts this round, but it will be harder to pin down subsequent victim's alignments.

Why wait? Why not just have him say if the player was a Freemason? Then we'd know 1 is probably it automatically (once Pleonast reveals the roles).

??? How is having night protection going to keep him from being lynched?

I don't see anyone wanting him lynched. I see people wanting to know why he's not telling us the full info and putting pressure on to give it. There should be no reason why he wouldn't.

In answer, I will quote myself from post 616, well before you even started this whole crusade:

But he could end it all now. Why do we wait? You don't find him not telling as weird when there IS NO reason not to reveal?

I will also say again (for probably the third time now) that I think sachertorte should reveal everything he knows. I will say again that I find it suspicious that he won't explain himself. But maybe he knows something I don't. Maybe I'm missing something that would make it less advantageous for him to reveal. I'm not omniscient and it's a complicated game. I just don't see the harm in waiting. If he's lying, he's going to get something wrong eventually. Meanwhile we view him with suspicion and trust nothing.

Bolding mine.

No, there's isn't. I cannot see anything there would be either. So that makes two of us who can't think of anything. There IS nothing. Go through the options in your own mind and think about it for a bit. There IS nothing. No reason to keep the info to yourself unless you don't know the info.

I think the point is that he shouldn't give the actual role if it is beneficial to scum. Knowing for sure that certain other Town roles aren't in play is a scum advantage. I wouldn't object to a yes/no on Freemason, but, then, if sach is concealing something for cause then it would really only confirm that.

Well we're in agreement then. Because the bolded is all I'm asking for and sach:

A. Refused to do this in his last post.
B. Hasn't posted since.

You don't think this is suspicious? I mean suspicious enough to warrant a looking at right now when it could easily be put to rest in one post and NOT waited on until who knows when?

This way, I imagine, keeps everyone guessing. Frankly, Idle, the way that you're pushing this, would you be satisfied with a simple yes or no without the reason?

How many times do I have to say this? YES! It was MY idea, in case you forgot.

How would that change your agenda that sach is possible scum?

Frankly, I think getting the ROLE right or not is a bit more convincing then just getting the SIDE right.

Yes, but it doesn't answer my two objections: first, why would sach pick a role so easy to confirm as a role-claim and, second, where is the coroner if not him?

Because all it takes is ONE good guess (which, as I said above, maybe not too far a shot) and most will put more confidence in you. I feel in order to not be misled, it should be required, at LEAST ONCE, to give a role...or to at least say IF one was or was not a role, which is all I'm asking.

Blaster Master

10-09-2007, 06:03 PM

Kat

10-09-2007, 06:31 PM

It seems to me that, considering the possible high percentage of scum (already mentioned at least twice that I can recall) that we damn well shouldn't be voting for anyone that we don't want to swing, or at the very least, we shouldn't be putting multiple "pressure votes" on people. That Drain Bead and Idle Thoughts are doing so (anyone else? Hang on while I check the vote count), okay Rysto, too, is not good.

Other suspicions for those three: Idle Thoughts for the mass role claim suggestion. I think, although I can't be sure, that the same suggestion was dealt with in the Firefly game before he suggested it here, but I haven't had time to look for it yet.
Drain Bead for me-tooing her vote for sachertorte. Just the fact that the vote went on so quickly and with none of her own support.
Rysto for the two minutes between (paraphrased) "we don't need to pressure sach for the info" and "Cough it up, sach." with a vote.

Of the three, Drain Bead bothers me the most, so
vote Drain Bead
if I have time to reread the thread tonight, I may change my vote to Idle, Rysto or a completely different person.

I'm not saying that they're wrong to request sach to reveal the role. I've said previously that he should either reveal or give an explanation for not revealing, but in this game, multiple pressure votes are not good for the Town.

Hockey Monkey

10-09-2007, 06:46 PM

Drain Bead

10-09-2007, 06:49 PM

Drain Bead

10-09-2007, 06:50 PM

EBWOP: The first today to vote for sachertorte, that is. I was on vacation for the vast majority of Day 1 and didn't have time to make substantial posts, seeing as I was making them from my iPod.

Rysto

10-09-2007, 07:29 PM

Rysto for the two minutes between (paraphrased) "we don't need to pressure sach for the info" and "Cough it up, sach." with a vote.
Clearly I need to make my thinking more clear when I post. My first post was meant to say "We don't need to pressure sach toDay because the point is moot until the end of Day 3, when we get role information from Pleonast." I immediately realized that wasn't true, because sach could use the information from toDay's lynch to form a better guess at Roles on Day 3. Therefore, I changed my mind and decided that sach needs to provide that information now.

Kat

10-09-2007, 09:15 PM

So wait. I'm pretty sure I was the first to actually vote for sachertorte, then Idle unvotes Rysto to vote for sachertorte, then Rysto completely changes sides and votes for sachertorte...but Kat votes for me because my vote was the "me, too"? Am I reading that correctly?
Did you miss the part where Idle had several posts outlining his suspicions against sach before you or he voted? I don't think you did, because your reasons for voting sach was:
You know, Idle has a point.
(post #654 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=9053770&postcount=654))

I'll also point out that I called out both Idle and Rysto. I just am, overall, getting more of a scummy feeling from the context of your vote than theirs.

Idle Thoughts

10-09-2007, 10:22 PM

Idle, what is your opinion on the following statement: It is in the town's interest to lynch sachetorte.

If your answer is "Yes, it is a good idea", then I want to see your rebuttal to my reasoning.

If your answer is "No, it is a bad idea", then I want to know why the hell you're voting for him.

Right now? No, I don't think so.

But I am very suspicious of him and if he's refusing to reveal info for no reason at all, then yeah, I'm going to vote for him until he does, because there is no reason to keep the info under the rug. Thus the vote is on him for pressure. If he cannot say if amr is a Freemason or not, then the only reason I know of is that he doesn't KNOW if amr is a Freemason or not.

It seems to me that, considering the possible high percentage of scum (already mentioned at least twice that I can recall) that we damn well shouldn't be voting for anyone that we don't want to swing, or at the very least, we shouldn't be putting multiple "pressure votes" on people. That Drain Bead and Idle Thoughts are doing so (anyone else? Hang on while I check the vote count), okay Rysto, too, is not good.

You and everyone has yet to say a reason to keep the info a secret. There IS no reason.

And where are you seeing a vote count? I looked all over, even in Pleo's sig.

Other suspicions for those three: Idle Thoughts for the mass role claim suggestion.

Sorry, but you're wrong. I was not suggesting it. I was asking "what would make this not work?/is there a reason this wouldn't work?" It was answered: "There could be more than one of the same role" and I was enlightened.

I was not suggesting it. Please go back and quote the post where I was suggesting it. I can quote YOU (in the post I bring it up in) saying that I'm NOT suggesting it...but I can't seem to find a post where I'm suggesting it. So therefore, why are you putting that on a list of "other suspicious behavior" of me?
It's false.

I'm not saying that they're wrong to request sach to reveal the role. I've said previously that he should either reveal or give an explanation for not revealing, but in this game, multiple pressure votes are not good for the Town.

I don't see how not. I'm of the opinion that he may NOT be Town...in that case, it IS good for Town.

So wait. I'm pretty sure I was the first to actually vote for sachertorte, then Idle unvotes Rysto to vote for sachertorte, then Rysto completely changes sides and votes for sachertorte...but Kat votes for me because my vote was the "me, too"? Am I reading that correctly?

Yeah, as you see above, you're not the only one she got wrong.

Kat

10-09-2007, 11:40 PM

Fine. Substitute "idea" for "suggestion".

Idle Thoughts

10-09-2007, 11:47 PM

It wasn't an idea either. Why are you twisting it to look like it is? Did you even GO back and read the post?

Here:

A new game.

Now, with this one, where EVERYONE has a role of some sort (and we know what the roles actually ARE, unlike in a closed game), what would prevent a mass role claim? Or am I missing something? Wouldn't a mass roleclaim screw scum over?

Please note: I'm not proposing we do this, I'm just asking what would stop that from working or being successful--lest people start jumping my freaking back for "oh think we should mass roleclaim, ehhhhh, Idle Thoughts?"

Note the bolded part. :rolleyes:

Idle Thoughts

10-09-2007, 11:54 PM

Anyway, I finally found the vote list and I see it's not updated as I think I have five against me right now.

And guess what? I'm not usually on PST anytime before Noon. I've said this before in many past games. I'll certainly try to be tomorrow, but:

1. I'm not sure if I'm going to be able to, for sure
2. If I am, it'll be with about an hour to an hour and a half to spare before Day ends.

So, without further ado, I am a Witchdoctor. I hesitate to use "the" Witchdoctor there because Pleonast has said there could be multiples of each role however I'd find it very, very in favor of Town if there's two Witchdoctors, so I'm leaning more toward thinking I'm the only one.

I'll be on for about one or two more hours tonight, but when I leave, don't expect me back until about 10 or 10:30 AM tomorrow, PST (if I can, and I certainly hope so).

Kat

10-09-2007, 11:56 PM

I'm not twisting any damn thing, Idle. I'm just pointing out that, whatever the hell you want to call it, you brought up the concept? Possibility? Hypothesis? Notion? Theory? Thought? of a mass role claim. Even included the question "Wouldn't a mass roleclaim screw scum over?" before your disclaimer.

I never said anywhere that you said "let's do this". Or quote me where I did. But whatever the hell you want to call it, you posted it.

Can we stop with the nitpicky semantics game now?

Idle Thoughts

10-09-2007, 11:58 PM

Oh yeah, amrussell ain't coming back to life either. Not unless there's another Witchdoctor.

So you see, like I said, it doesn't matter if sach tells us if he was a Freemason or not. Just a simple yes or no would do.

Kat

10-09-2007, 11:59 PM

*throws up hands* And now, the whole discussion is pointless, I guess. At least I can stop looking through Day Two of Firefly trying to find that discussion.

Idle Thoughts

10-10-2007, 12:00 AM

I'm not twisting any damn thing, Idle. I'm just pointing out that, whatever the hell you want to call it, you brought up the concept? Possibility? Hypothesis? Notion? Theory? Thought? of a mass role claim. Even included the question "Wouldn't a mass roleclaim screw scum over?" before your disclaimer.

Try Question.

I never said anywhere that you said "let's do this". Or quote me where I did. But whatever the hell you want to call it, you posted it.

Here, you said:

Other suspicions for those three: Idle Thoughts for the mass role claim suggestion.

To me, the word suggestion means: "hey, what about us doing this?"

nesta

10-10-2007, 12:03 AM

How would saying if he was a Freemason or not be helping scum in any way?

Nobody seems to have an answer for this.
First, I'm in favor of sach saying yea or nay whether amrussell was a freemason because it is one more data point in sach's favor should he get it right, especially if amrussell really wasn't a freemason. I'm more concerned that he hasn't given us whatever information he has about Fretful or OAOW, though. Even if he's right about the side but one or both of them turns out to have a specific role, and not just a side, then I'm going to be very suspicious of sach. I think it would at least help if he would clear up whether there was any more information to share on those two. If his claim is true he shouldn't be afraid to give us any scum info he has.

That said, I can't figure out why you keep insisting that if sach is indeed the coroner that his revealing whether or not amrussell was a freemason doesn't help the scum in any way, because it obviously does, and many people have pointed it out. To name a few reasons if you can't figure them out for yourself:

1) As some others have pointed out it keeps the scum guessing a little about role-claims. If they think that it's possible that amrussell wasn't really a mason they might slip up while trying to work around that.

2) The scum might use the fact that amrussell was a freemason to try to work out who the others are. If they have some doubt about that it might hinder their efforts.

3) If amrussell really wasn't a freemason then the scum wouldn't be led astray by his role-claim, and any confusion we can cause the scum is good.

4) Not specific to amrussell's role, but I can also see sach not wanting to set a precedent that he needs to reveal the roles in the future so that when a townie is killed without claiming it doesn't look suspicious if he just says, "town, trust me."

I weighed these types of things against our need to verify sach as much as possible and as soon as possible and think being able to trust him is more in our favor than the slight information advantage that we keep by not revealing amrussell's freemason status. I think Today is good evidence why we want to get discussion of sach done with rather than dragging it on.

I also think item 4 above isn't really much of an issue because sach could easily chime in and say he won't be revealing roles for un-role-claimed townies so as not to give the scum more information. My biggest issue with him right now is that he hasn't chimed in to explain his reasons at all, which I find odd.

If he is the coroner and wants to keep town roles to himself it's his role and I'm not going to lynch him for it. If he isn't the coroner he's either already made a mistake with the sides or probably will soon. If it gets down to mid/endgame and he hasn't been night killed and is still playing things that close to the vest he's going to start looking more and more suspicious.

Now, Idle, I don't know if it's your play style or what that makes you always seem suspicious to me, but you're doing it again here. You seem to be harping on sach about amrussell's status rather than on what else he got about OAOW and Fretful and in my mind his biggest offense of not even trying to explain why he is giving us the information he is. You even went so far as to vote for him. You don't want to lynch him Today, right? If you've said that, what kind of pressure can your vote really give whether he's scum or not, since he can just ignore it. Your behavior here is odd. I'm now a little suspicious of you, but I'm trying to weigh this against my WIFOM of thinking scum probably wouldn't stick their neck out like you are doing.

CatInASuit

10-10-2007, 12:04 AM

nesta

10-10-2007, 12:11 AM

Great, Idle has role-claimed now. I still think my points are valid even if his claim is true.

Kat

10-10-2007, 12:12 AM

Idle Thoughts

10-10-2007, 12:15 AM

First, I'm in favor of sach saying yea or nay whether amrussell was a freemason because it is one more data point in sach's favor should he get it right, especially if amrussell really wasn't a freemason.

Rest cut because that's the only thing I'M suggesting yet people are finding me scummy for it.

Even though: Sach hasn't been in this topic since and refused to say either or in his last post.

And people aren't finding that suspicious...

That said, I can't figure out why you keep insisting that if sach is indeed the coroner that his revealing whether or not amrussell was a freemason doesn't help the scum in any way, because it obviously does, and many people have pointed it out. To name a few reasons if you can't figure them out for yourself:

1) As some others have pointed out it keeps the scum guessing a little about role-claims. If they think that it's possible that amrussell wasn't really a mason they might slip up while trying to work around that.

I replied to this when that other person said it. I'll say it again here, I disagree. There are TWO other Freemasons out there IF amr was a Freemason. I don't see why or how knowing if amr was one would make them any more or less likely to claim Freemason (or any other role).

2) The scum might use the fact that amrussell was a freemason to try to work out who the others are. If they have some doubt about that it might hinder their efforts.

And how, exactly, could they do this?

3) If amrussell really wasn't a freemason then the scum wouldn't be led astray by his role-claim, and any confusion we can cause the scum is good.

I still don't buy it. See what I said above to the second quote.

4) Not specific to amrussell's role, but I can also see sach not wanting to set a precedent that he needs to reveal the roles in the future so that when a townie is killed without claiming it doesn't look suspicious if he just says, "town, trust me."

And if he can get a role right I'm more willing to do have trust in him.

Now, Idle, I don't know if it's your play style or what that makes you always seem suspicious to me, but you're doing it again here. You seem to be harping on sach about amrussell's status rather than on what else he got about OAOW and Fretful and in my mind his biggest offense of not even trying to explain why he is giving us the information he is.

What about OAOW? If he is a Cabalist, what more is there? I thought that they were only of that group and didn't have roles?

You even went so far as to vote for him. You don't want to lynch him Today, right? If you've said that, what kind of pressure can your vote really give whether he's scum or not, since he can just ignore it.

Enough votes and he'll talk, I'm thinking. If he can't or won't (for any reason, but the only reason I can think of is: he can't) reveal a role, then yeah, my vote will stay there, because I find only giving out half the info suspicious. YMobviouslyV.

CatInASuit

10-10-2007, 12:20 AM

Hmm,

A powerful but pretty unverifiable power role unless he guesses right vs. the fact that Idle Thoughts looks scummy.

Decisions, decisions... :(

Freudian Slit

10-10-2007, 12:20 AM

Why would it matter? He's dead now. Even if he's brought back to life by a/the Witchdoctor, he'll A. know the name of his killer and B. if a powerful role, will probably be protected by a/the Doctor (or whatever the protecting role is in this game). If he's brought back by the Necromancer, he can't say either way anyway.
Idle Thoughts said this earlier on in the thread. For someone who's the Witchdoctor, he's awfully unsure of the role. "Whatever the protecting role is"? Rysto pointed this out a while ago, too, right after Idle Thoughts said it.

I'm not convinced he's the Witch Doctor.

vote Idle Thoughts

Freudian Slit

10-10-2007, 12:21 AM

Shoot. I forgot that I'm supposed to vote in blue...do I need to repost that, Pleonast?

CatInASuit

10-10-2007, 12:25 AM

Zoggie , I would suggest reposting in the correct colours.

I am sure Pleonast can work it out for himself ;)

nesta

10-10-2007, 12:30 AM

I was trying to make up my mind between voting for Drain Bead or Idle. I was leaning toward Drain anyway. Unless there's a witchdoctor counter-claim I'm giving Idle the benefit of the doubt for now so that makes the decision easier.

Vote Drain Bead

Her vote for sach makes even less sense to me than Idle's, because at least Idle gave a strong justification and had built a bit of a case for his suspicion. Drain Bead on the other hand just cited Idle's case and her backtracking on whether she was voting because she thought sach was scum and should be lynched or whether she was just putting pressure on him doesn't sit right with me.

Idle Thoughts

10-10-2007, 12:33 AM

Idle Thoughts,

Running through the situations with amrussell a freemason

sachertorte claims amrussell is a freemason:
The town believes that at least 1+ freemason exists, the freemasons think sachertorte is telling the truth and the scum will definitely not choose freemasons as a claim. sachertorte goes unlynched.

Unless amrussell is revealed NOT to be a Freemason.

I don't see why scum would choose Freemason in the first place. Even I only did it under extreme hesitation and against my better judgement last game. But it's a very stupid thing to do. So I don't feel that point holds any water.

sachertorte claims amrussell is NOT a freemason:
The town does not know if freemason exists, the freemasons, if they exist, know if sachertorte is lying and the scum may choose freemasons as a claim because they may or may not exist (they are part of the town remember)
sachertorte gets lynched.

When? Today? I'm don't think we should lynch sach at all if she says yea or nay. What should be done then is just wait until amr's role is revealed and if he's a Freemason, one trust point for sach. If not, lynch the next Day.

Running through the situations with amrussell NOT a freemason

Freemasons in the game and sachertorte claims amrussell is a freemason:
The town believes that at least 1+ freemason exists, the freemasons know that sachertorte is lying and the scum will definitely not choose freemasons as a claim.
sachertorte then gets lynched.

When? Today? I'm don't think we should lynch sach at all if she says yea or nay. What should be done then is just wait until amr's role is revealed and if he's a NOT A Freemason, A WHOLE SHITLOAD OF trust points for sach. If he is, lynch the next Day.

No Freemasons in the game and sachertorte claims amrussell is NOT a freemason:
The town does not know if freemason exists and the scum may choose freemasons as a claim because they may or may not exist
sachertorte does not get lynched.

Again, then after he says yea or nay and we see amr's role from Pleo, 10 trust points for sach.

No Freemasons in the game and sachertorte claims amrussell is a freemason:
The town believes that at least 1+ freemason exists, no-one knows if sachertorte is lying and the scum will definitely not choose freemasons as a claim.
sachertorte then gets lynched when proved false.

Which will be when Pleo reveals the role.

No Freemasons in the game and sachertorte claims amrussell is NOT a freemason:
The town does not know if freemason exists and the scum may choose freemasons as a claim because they may or may not exist
sachertorte does not get lynched.

Again, then after he says yea or nay and we see amr's role from Pleo, 10 trust points for sach.

Your basic assumption is that no scum would be stupid enough to claim freemason because the other freemasons would know about it.

That but more importantly this: That it doesn't matter. They could claim anything as we don't know what is in this game and what isn't. If amrussell was really Town (and sach says he was[/b] WHY would he claim Freemason if there weren't any Freemasons? There HAS to be Freemasons then, otherwise he'd be playing a stupid move and getting the possible Freemasons to think he was scum.

So why would scum role claim Freemason when at least one or two others WHO ARE TOWN, will know you're lying? It's better to claim something else. ANYTHING else other than Witch (who are like Freemasons in their own right). So again, your point holds no weight.

We don't know yet if the freemasons actually exist.[quote]

Then the question remains. Why did amr claim he was one if he's Town? We already have HEARD he was Town...so if he's not a Freemason, why'd he say it?

[quote]What I don't understand is your continued aggression that sachertorte has to reveal the role of the dead town member when by confirming the role of the dead Wolf provides nearly as good a test with no benefit to the scum at all.

I'm not asking him to reveal the role. If he wasn't a Freemason, I do not want to know what he was. I just want to know IF HE WAS A FREEMASON OR NOT. There is a big difference and yes, it would put more trust in sach's claim.

If I'm wrong, I'm sure you'll tell me ;)

Well, I'm the Witchdoctor, so what you excuse you think it is now?

Idle Thoughts

10-10-2007, 12:36 AM

Yeah, well, I actually was using it in the sense of "A psychological process by which an idea is induced in or adopted by another without argument, command, or coercion." especially with the "Wouldn't a mass roleclaim screw scum over?", seeing as how it'd be so easy to later point out "Hey, I did say I wasn't actually encouraging anyone to do it".

Why's it not an "idea" though?

An idea is something you want to try out.

Compare the two sentences:

"Hey guys! I have this great idea! How about a mass-roleclaim?"

"I have a question. What's stopping Town from just doing a mass-roleclaim?"

Idle Thoughts

10-10-2007, 12:39 AM

Idle Thoughts said this earlier on in the thread. For someone who's the Witchdoctor, he's awfully unsure of the role. "Whatever the protecting role is"? Rysto pointed this out a while ago, too, right after Idle Thoughts said it.

I'm not convinced he's the Witch Doctor.

vote Idle Thoughts

I bring people back to life. I don't protect them. I didn't know that the/a Witchdoctor was the Doctor for this game. My simple mistake.

Idle Thoughts

10-10-2007, 12:40 AM

Okay, well, if people don't believe me, here's more.

I have more powers than bringing people back to life. It is NOT in your best interest to lynch me, you true Townies out there. Trust me.

CatInASuit

10-10-2007, 12:42 AM

Idle Thoughts,

For starters, several of your points require there to be freemasons in the game, we just don't know that yet. Although I can see your reasoning behind some of your other points.

However, you went through my enitre post and failed to answer the last question

"What I don't understand is your continued aggression that sachertorte has to reveal the role of the dead town member when by confirming the role of the dead Wolf provides nearly as good a test with no benefit to the scum at all. "

Why does it have to be amrussell's role that has to be revealed, why not FP's.

What is so important about amrussell's role that it has to be that one that is revealed?

Idle Thoughts

10-10-2007, 12:48 AM

Idle Thoughts,

For starters, several of your points require there to be freemasons in the game, we just don't know that yet. Although I can see your reasoning behind some of your other points.[quote]

I assume there are since amr claimed to be one. sach said he's Town, so, if HE and AMRUSSELL is telling the truth, he is one and there are. If he's telling the truth but amr isn't, then why would he lie and have the other Freemasons possibly outing him as a liar or voting for him?

And if he's not telling the truth, then what better reason to lynch him?

[quote]However, you went through my enitre post and failed to answer the last question

"What I don't understand is your continued aggression that sachertorte has to reveal the role of the dead town member when by confirming the role of the dead Wolf provides nearly as good a test with no benefit to the scum at all. "

Why does it have to be amrussell's role that has to be revealed, why not FP's.

Because of one very simple thing you apparently haven't thought of.
FP's role MAY have been none other than just Wolf, but if amr is really Town, he'll have a role.

Nothing important about it at all other than it might be the only one that can be verfied later (if FP is just "vanilla Wolf")

Idle Thoughts

10-10-2007, 12:49 AM

[QUOTE=CatInASuit]Idle Thoughts,

For starters, several of your points require there to be freemasons in the game, we just don't know that yet. Although I can see your reasoning behind some of your other points.

I assume there are since amr claimed to be one. sach said he's Town, so, if HE and AMRUSSELL is telling the truth, he is one and there are. If he's telling the truth but amr isn't, then why would he lie and have the other Freemasons possibly outing him as a liar or voting for him?

And if he's not telling the truth, then what better reason to lynch him?

And as for your other question, it's because of one very simple thing you apparently haven't thought of.
FP's role MAY have been none other than just Wolf, but if amr is really Town, he'll have a role.

Nothing important about it at all other than it might be the only one that can be verfied later (if FP is just "vanilla Wolf")

CatInASuit

10-10-2007, 01:01 AM

And as for your other question, it's because of one very simple thing you apparently haven't thought of.
FP's role MAY have been none other than just Wolf, but if amr is really Town, he'll have a role.

Nothing important about it at all other than it might be the only one that can be verfied later (if FP is just "vanilla Wolf")

I am aware that FP may just be a "vanilla Wolf". However if he turns out to the the Alpha/Omega Wolf, I will have no problems voting for sachertorte because there is no reason to withhold this data other than being scummy.

Idle Thoughts

10-10-2007, 01:15 AM

And I am with you on that, Cat.... but there MAY BE, again, the chance that FP is just "Wolf".

However in amr's case (someone sach has said is Town) he WOULD have a role. Thus, I think pinpointing his holds a bit more water, even if it's a simple "yes or no".

Idle Thoughts

10-10-2007, 02:00 AM

Hmm,

A powerful but pretty unverifiable power role unless he guesses right vs. the fact that Idle Thoughts looks scummy.

Decisions, decisions... :(

Oh, and you're wrong here. I am verifiable. Very verifiable, actually, and it has to do with the rest of my powers.
I am not going to reveal those powers right now, however, if I'm still in the hot seat tomorrow, I shall (unlike a certain sach does--although if you all continue to keep your votes on me just to pressure me into revealing it, you'll become exactly what you're voting ME for and have to unvote me and vote for yourselves :) ).

Boozahol Squid, P.I.

10-10-2007, 03:31 AM

I bring people back to life. I don't protect them. I didn't know that the/a Witchdoctor was the Doctor for this game. My simple mistake.

The witches are the Doctor role in this game. The Witchdoctor is a little different.

sachertorte

10-10-2007, 04:12 AM

The town is simply going to have to be patient. I've given the matter considerable thought, and no Role information is going to be revealed by me Today. Simply put, I'm baffled by the logic put forth otherwise.

Idle Thoughts's statement that he will reveal his special power Tomorrow has me greatly concerned. I'm not sure how to interpret that. It's a bit ironic/hypocritical, but I'm left wondering, why tomorrow? What is so special about tomorrow? What does Idle Thoughts wish to do TONIGHT that he so desperately seems to want to do? I have an idea, well more than an idea. I was going to do an information dump at the end of the Day to preserve my thoughts and information in case I die Tonight, but Idle Thoughts's desire to live through just one more night makes the reveal now, more apropos. It also explains why Idle Thoughts chose Witchdoctor as his roleclaim. (I hope I'm right about this).

The following few posts were ment to be coherent, but they were written in pieces over the last few days. And I wrote them before thinking Idle Thoughts was total scum, which I now do.

sachertorte

10-10-2007, 04:16 AM

At the beginning of Day Two when I revealed what I knew, two groups knew my role was confirmed: Cabal and Wolf. Cabal knew I was telling the truth and therefore a coroner because they know that I am not a Cabalist and they know that One and Only Wanderers is Cabal aligned. Similarly, Wolves knew I was telling the truth because I am not a Wolf, and they knew Fretful Porpentine is Wolf aligned. For those of you not keeping score, this is precisely why I didn't reveal Role information. Strategically, there is no benefit to Town in knowing roles for the duration of Day Two. The downside was it served as a distraction (sorry for that), but my reason for keeping the information hidden was because while the Town, Undead, and Cabalists, did not know the role of Fretful Porpentine, the Wolves did. I have no idea if this gambit will prove fruitful, but hopefully the Day Two record in conjunction with future events will reveal motivations behind players either overly interested in Fretful's Role or conspicuously not interested at all. I'm not sure, but that was my reason. I purposefully wanted to keep the knowledge held by scum different from the knowledge held by Town in the hope that a mistake might be made or behavior towards my lack of supplying information might reveal something useful.
Therefore, it is my hope that future rereadings of Day Two with two facts in mind might help reveal Cabal and Wolf:
1) Cabal knew that I am a Coroner throughout Day Two, while Town did not.
2) Wolves knew that I am a Coroner, while Town did not.
3) Wolves know Fretful Porpentine's alignment, while no one else does.
4) Cabal know OAOW's alignment, while no one else does.
I suggest that Endgame Townies look at Day Two with the benefit of future information and a smaller population.

sachertorte

10-10-2007, 04:21 AM

(Oh, I forgot to say earlier that I've withheld from discussion because I'm operating on a different set of information. I've supplied this information to the Town, but you can't treat it as valid yet, but I can)

I'm not sure what the town consensus is (discussion has been very sparse this Day). But it seems the initial reaction of players would be that Wolves killed amrussell and the Vampire killed Fretful Porpentine. On the surface, this is a reasonable explanation of the events of Night One. Night One could very well have occurred this way; however, an alternative possibility is the Vampire killed amrussell and the Wolves (Fretful Porpentine) attempted to kill the Vampire and ended up dead instead. This course of events is less probable, but considering motivations of Wolves and Vampire, seems more plausible to me. The Wolves' desire to kill a claimed Freemason seems off to me. This action runs counter to typical scum play. It is possible that Wolves killed amrussell to break up the Freemason network that was forming around her, but I wonder about the Wolves being afraid of the Freemasons instead of going after bigger targets (even if only by chance) such as Seer, Detective, and Witch. Furthermore, wolves know the identity of their comrades and have no fear rolling the dice on an unknown.
On the other hand, the Vampire would be well motivated to kill amrussell, a claimed townie, who had very little chance (none really) of being the Necromancer.
Consequences:
- The Wolves know whether or not this hypothesis is true.
- The Detective should know whether or not this hypothesis is true.
- The Vampire knows whether or not this hypothesis is true.
- If true, my confirmation as a pro-town role makes me a likely candidate for being the Vampire's victim tonight.
- If false, my bringing up this hypothesis stupidly gives the Vampire some bright ideas (oops).

On a Day Two re-read I noticed that my realization that Fretful was possibly a Vampire-backfire victim did not come from nowhere, it comes from Rysto's post 561 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=9046578&postcount=561) where he states:
There's way too many possible roleclaims for us to fully appreciate all of the subtleties of any one roleclaim. For example, just yesterDay I said that a Werewolf would be happy to kill a claimed Seer because they'll either kill the real Seer or opposing scum like the Vampire. Of course, the Vampire can't be night-killed by the Wolves so that was a nonsense piece of reasoning.
Why the sudden change in perspective? Is it possible that Rysto, along with Fretful Porpentine selected the Vampire and had Fretful do the deed, and so the events of Night One reminded Rysto of the Vampires night abilities? I find it peculiar that Rysto mentions the Vampire's night abilities so early in Day Two.
In the same post (561) Rysto also states:
Fretful's death is a mystery to me at this point; he's not been on my radar at all.
Which strikes me as scum going out of his way to state that he knows nothing. I don't think Fretful's death is a mystery to Rysto at all.
Rysto also cautions the town to be wary of believing my role until I'm confirmed (561, link above):
I expect this goes without saying but until sachertorte's claim is validated by Pleonast we can't use his information. We have no idea whether this information is correct and it's possible that sachertorte is scum and is trying to lead us wrong for a Day before getting lynched himself. I know that it's tempting to follow up what could be our first piece of solid information, but we can't afford to take the chance that sachertorte is scum.
This is, of course, good advice. However, Rysto either ignores his own advice or is again revealing he knows more than he says:
I say leave sach alone, and if he was wrong on OAOW's alignment, Vig him. If he's wrong on either of the night kills, lynch him tomorrow. We could even let him live Day 3 and Vig him Night 3. That would allow the Vig to let us know whether there really is one in the game.

On the other hand, having that knowledge might help the scum more than the Town. If they know that there's a Vig they'll try to claim some other role instead.

The other problem with Viging him Night 3 is that if he's the Vampire he'd get to kill one more time. Any thoughts?
Which I find problematic because implicit in Rysto's statement is the assumption (near certainty) that OAOW is not the Vigilante. (n.b. Rysto previously stated his belief in a single Vig in the game) This indicates to me that Rysto has reason to believe OAOW is not the Vigilante. In other words, Rysto knows I'm truthful in my role because he's a Wolf or a Cabalist.
These points combined with Rysto's invocation of the "Bringing up the third vote is a scum tell" from Day One makes Rysto my number one candidate for scum*.

Idle Thoughts is now number one.