Mafia: The Conspiracy

[sachertorte]

And this is where I start to possibly step on peoples toes. With that in mind, I'll put out this disclaimer: I've noticed that certain players follow a completely different logic pattern than my own. Historically, logic incompatibilities have not been good indicators of scum, but I put out my thoughts here regarding DiggitCamara and IdleThoughts.

DiggitCamara I know for sure we have different views of the world, and things that look perfectly logical to him look like gibberish to me and vice versa. To me DiggitCamara has gone out of his way to find reason to question my roleclaim. I have the advantage of knowing my roleclaim to be truthful, so my analysis is unavoidably biased.
First, DiggitCamara supposed that I was a Cabalist and therefore knew the alignment of One And Only Wanderers and was banking on Fretful being turned into a Zombie and having her Side obfuscated. There are multiple problems with this line of logic. 1) Fretful is not guaranteed to become a zombie 2) The Vicar could bless Fretful 3) Zombies still have their Side and Role revealed on schedule. When corrected, suspicion was then shifted to my revealing Fretful's Side as a lucky guess. I do not follow this logic at all.
For some reason DiggitCamara was unwilling to let my role go and just wait for correct or incorrect data from me. I am suspicious of this behavior. But I must also state that I'm always suspicious of DiggitCamara so this might mean nothing at all.
Also there is the needling fact that in all the supposition, DiggitCamara takes OAOW as a Cabalist as a given, which is weird for a Townie to do. Why not suppose I knew Fretful's alignment and guessed OAOW? Something there just doesn't sit right with me.
There is also post 562 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=9046685&postcount=562) :
1. One and Only Wanderers certainly false claimed. After all, he claimed after amrussell already had claimed. amrussell showed exactly how a freemason should claim
Which seems to indicate that DiggitCamara knows that OAOW false claimed, which I know to be true, but DiggitCamara should not know this to be true yet. Of course the rest of the post is so wacky that I can't really understand what is going on here.

[sachertorte]

Similarly, Idle Thoughts put forth discussion that questioned my role and how I was playing my role. Again, the logic eludes me. In
post 634 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=9051803&postcount=634) Idle Thoughts stated:
It would be much more confirming if he could say if amrussell is a Freemason or not.
which baffles me because in my opinion such data would be of very little value towards confirming my role. It is my opinion that revealing Side information of the essentially random players that end up dead is a very powerful indicator that I'm telling the truth. Also I can demonstrate this ability every DAY.

So I am left wondering about Idle Thoughts. He seems quite keen on squeezing as much information out of me as possible. It's possibly legitimate Town curiosity, but why the interest in amrussell specifically and less so on Fretful Porpentine? Is he scum wanting to know as much as possible about amrussell? Does he already know Fretful's Role and is therefore not as interested in her?

The whole thing doesn't make sense to me. I don't really see scum making the production that Idle Thoughts did, but something about the entire exchange just bugs me.

.... And now I know why (or I at least have a guess) ... read on.

[sachertorte]

I am posting my thoughts here, very late on Day Two, for specific reasons, the most salient being the Day Two Dusk post by Pleonast will add weight to what I have to say. Furthermore, the Day Three Dawn post should confirm my role adequately. Locating this post as close to my confirmation as possible seemed like a reasonable thing to do. I didn't want to post this important information during Day Two because it would only have distracted the Town and would have been muddied by my as yet unconfirmed status.

Things you need to know that I didn't want to bring up until my role confirmation was complete. I don't think I can wait that long so here are the goods...

Warning: The stated ruleset given to us by Pleonast is not complete. There are game mechanics and rules that are hidden; specifically, a recruitment mechanism exists in this game.
I started the game with this extra piece of information and have been mulling how best to warn the town that recruitment is a possibility. I felt that bringing up the information before I could confirm my role would be damaging to the town, as a discussion distraction. My plan was to lay low (Ha!) and roleclaim on Day Two. The Day One roleclaim didn't hurt my plan too much, except that the 'pressure' roleclaim makes the bar of proof a bit higher for me.
Anyway, I feel the information will be of best effect now that my confirmation is near.
Wolves and/or Vampires (I'm not sure which one or if both) can recruit. As far as I can tell, the process will 'look like' a Witchdoctor's enchantment. That is, the recruited player will be dead then come back to the game. As far as the rules imply, the only way for this to occur is through Witchdoctor enchantment; but assuming the rules are complete in this respect would be incorrect. I was given information that states that recruitment will follow the same pattern. Beware of resurrected players. The Witchdoctor should be able to confirm whether or not he/she enchanted the revived player. If the witchdoctor is dead, well you know what to do. If multiple witchdoctors? Uh well, good luck with that.
I do not know how many times scum can recruit. From a game balance perspective, my guess is a maximum of one Vampire recruitment and one Werewolf recruitment. But this is my guess. Also note, that in Pleonast parlance "Recruitment" == "Curse"

So with my secret revealed, I fulfill the obligations of my role to the Town. Good Luck.

[sachertorte]

Now that brings us to Idle Thoughts and the needling fact that I'm not confirmed yet.

It is my opinion that Idle Thoughts has the 'special power' of recruitment. This would explain why he is so keen on revealing his power Tomorrow instead of Today. It also might explain his interest in amrussell if recruitment fails against certain roles. In M5, Monks (masons) were not recruitable. If a similar immunity exists in this game for recruitment, then a recruiting role would want to know if Freemasons exist in the game or not.

From my perspective, Idle Thought's plan is:
Today, Roleclaim Witchdoctor
Tonight, Recruit player A
Tomorrow, "Wow, look player A is dead! But I enchanted him! He'll be back tomorrow. This will confirm I'm the Witchdoctor!"

The problem is, I'm not confirmed yet; so the Town has little reason to believe me yet.
If we wait until tomorrow, Idle Thoughts will have the opportunity to recruit... BUT you now know this! So whether you choose to kill Idle Thoughts Today or decide to wait, his recruitment should be identifiable now that you know (or at least will have a better idea that I'm telling the truth Tomorrow). So I think that problem has been averted. Optimal play would be to lynch Idle Thoughts now, but I understand if there is hesitation.

Vote Idle Thoughts

If revealing the roles of amrussell and Fretful Porpentine will increase my credibility, I'm willing to do so; but from my perspective, revealing these roles now does nothing for the Idle Thoughts issue since the Roles will not be revealed by Pleonast until Day Four.

[sachertorte]

Oh yeah, amrussell ain't coming back to life either. Not unless there's another Witchdoctor.
Why no statement about Fretful Porpentine? I read this as "I killed amrussell, I didn't recruit her"
When I saw that recruitment was an option, I felt that maybe the Vampire would opt to recruit ASAP since if he died, then the opportunity is wasted. I was also worried that if amrussell were recruited she would reveal who all the other masons are (immunity makes sense from a game balance point of view now that I think about it). So the good news is amrussell was not recruited, at least not by Idle Thoughts.

[Drain Bead]

Did you miss the part where Idle had several posts outlining his suspicions against sach before you or he voted? I don't think you did, because your reasons for voting sach was:

(post #654 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=9053770&postcount=654))

I'll also point out that I called out both Idle and Rysto. I just am, overall, getting more of a scummy feeling from the context of your vote than theirs.

At that time, Idle was voting for Rysto, I believe. I voted for sachertorte. Again, how is that a "me, too" vote?

[sachertorte]

I had another thought about Idle Thoughts:
When Idle Thoughts first stated that he had a secret power, my immediate reaction was I believed it. I had secret information, so it made sense to me that other players might also have secret information (or powers). But as I thought about the situation, the probability that 'secret power' == scum recruitment became greater and greater.
I bring this up because Idle Thoughts was riding me very hard saying there is no reason why I would not reveal more information about amrussell. If Idle Thoughts is truly pro-town and truly had a secret power, then he would not have pursued me with such vigor. Any Townie with a secret power would have assumed something secret was why I was being so silent.

[Drain Bead]

Vote count, please?

unvote sachertorte

I'm not convinced by sachertorte here, but the return to the thread and gigantic info-dump is enough to remove my pressure vote, at least for now while I digest it all. The only part I find difficult to believe is the whole "The mods told me about a secret recruitment role in my PM" thing. It seems conveniently aligned with Idle's roleclaim. If you had that info all along, why not mention it as soon as you were forced to claim, so we could figure out a way to deal with it? Was there any good advantage to keeping it secret for this long that I'm missing? And also, more importantly, can anyone else confirm this information, or was sachertorte the only person to whom it was provided?

Simply put, right now I can't decide which of you two to believe. So right now I'm just going to put my vote back to where it was before.

Vote DiggitCamera

[sachertorte]

Drain Bead. I understand that you don't believe me. I never expected the Town to believe me right away. My hope was that I would make the statement and my role confirmation as Coroner would do the rest. The information is now there, and Pleonast will reveal Sides of three players quite soon. All this combined should insulate the town from the worst effects of recruitment.

I never expected that Idle Thoughts would tip his hand and allow me to expose recruitment in this way. (Plus I could be wrong about Idle Thoughts. I don't know that he's scum, I just very very strongly suspect). I don't expect Town to have the same suspicions as me either as they don't have the same information that I do. But as I can confirm my role day-after-day then the info-dump becomes more valuable. Originally the info-dump was meant for endgame use, after my role was clearly confirmed.

[sachertorte]

Oh and it is not a "secret recruitment ROLE" as far as I can tell. I believe it is just a tacked on power that wasn't listed in the published ruleset.

[CatInASuit]

Now that's what I call an infodump/explanation :eek:

Thank you for taking the time to explain your reasoning sachertorte.

The only strategic reasoning for revealing a role (whether FP or amrussell) is to confirm your towniness to the general Town and not leave us wondering if you really are the coroner or just a lucky guesser. Thinking about it, considering how long it will take to reveal the roles, we don't find out until Dawn Day 4, I would suggest revealing them just before the start of Night 3 instead of now.

You will be under suspicion until then, but it will prove your towniness at the start of the following day. Of course, if you get it wrong you will be the obvious target for lynching that day. ;)

It's nice to see that it's not just NAF/Kat who are Bastard ModsTM, it looks like Pleonast has been hiding rules from us and that we get to have fun with the recruitment option again, somehow that doesn't surprise me (assuming sachertorte is telling the truth of course). Oh great :(

Idle Thoughts: I don't like it when people start doing the "I've got a secret, but I'm not telling". (Hold on, you're Pleonast in disguise aren't you? :p )

[sachertorte]

Thinking about it, considering how long it will take to reveal the roles, we don't find out until Dawn Day 4, I would suggest revealing them just before the start of Night 3 instead of now.
Agreed.
Also I will have revealed the Sides of Tonight's casualties (assuming I survive the night).

[Pleonast]

Vote count, please?I'm in California, let me get my beauty sleep, ok? :D

I made my sig more clear, for those looking for the most recent vote count.

[ShadowFacts]

sachertorte, I am glad to see you are back and posting information, rather than sitting quiet in the corner, even if it is late in the Day to dump this huge load of information/speculation on us ;)

I have one thing to comment on at the moment, then a question. First, I was happy to see this:
Thinking about it, considering how long it will take to reveal the roles, we don't find out until Dawn Day 4, I would suggest revealing them just before the start of Night 3 instead of now.
Agreed.
Also I will have revealed the Sides of Tonight's casualties (assuming I survive the night).

I'm glad you've changed your mind about revealing Roles, as that will make it more likely to lead to your confirmation/unmasking sooner.

Second, I have a question about this whole recruitment thing.


Anyway, I feel the information will be of best effect now that my confirmation is near.
Wolves and/or Vampires (I'm not sure which one or if both) can recruit. As far as I can tell, the process will 'look like' a Witchdoctor's enchantment. That is, the recruited player will be dead then come back to the game. As far as the rules imply, the only way for this to occur is through Witchdoctor enchantment; but assuming the rules are complete in this respect would be incorrect. I was given information that states that recruitment will follow the same pattern. Beware of resurrected players. The Witchdoctor should be able to confirm whether or not he/she enchanted the revived player. If the witchdoctor is dead, well you know what to do. If multiple witchdoctors? Uh well, good luck with that.
I do not know how many times scum can recruit. From a game balance perspective, my guess is a maximum of one Vampire recruitment and one Werewolf recruitment. But this is my guess. Also note, that in Pleonast parlance "Recruitment" == "Curse"

You seem somewhat confused about who can recruit and how it happens. Can you tell us exactly what your role PM said about this recruitment so we can evaluate it? (That's not against the rules, is it?) You've already revealed the big secret, so I don't see any reason not to be as specific as possible.

[HazelNutCoffee]

Dear Lord. I haven't even had coffee yet and sachertorte comes and dumps this on us. And oh, another role claim. Great.

I have a morning full of classes today so I don't have time for an extended post, but I will simply confirm that I'm keeping my vote where it is, because sach's explanation seems marginally more convincing than Idle's. I considered going for a no-lynch, but that would give us nothing. On one hand, the Witchdoctor is a powerful and useful Town role and I would like to give Idle the benefit of the doubt; on the other, Idle's harrassment of sach and sach's infodump leaves me skeptical. Of Idle. And the whole recruitment possibility throws everything into chaos; especially if sach is telling the truth and it works like a resurrection. :smack:

The one thing that I am certain of is that Pleonast is evil. :mad:

[Pleonast]

Can you tell us exactly what your role PM said about this recruitment so we can evaluate it? (That's not against the rules, is it?)Players can post putative PMs as they like. Obviously, I will not confirm anything.]The one thing that I am certain of is that Pleonast is evil.Yep. Specifically, lawful evil.

To answer the inevitable questions: I neither confirm nor deny the existence of any hidden or secret rules. I will state unequivocally that there are no secret Roles.

[fluiddruid]

Idle Thoughts, I am rapidly beginning to believe that you are full of shit.

Because all it takes is ONE good guess (which, as I said above, maybe not too far a shot) and most will put more confidence in you. I feel in order to not be misled, it should be required, at LEAST ONCE, to give a role...or to at least say IF one was or was not a role, which is all I'm asking.Again, you have ignored this point. Even though you quoted it, you continue to ignore it:

Idle Thoughts, where is the coroner if not him?

Why do you feel that sach is such an imminent risk when no other Coroner appears to be in play?

In addition, why is it appropriate for you to withhold information from us regarding your "secret power" when you pressed sach so hard for information that you felt he was withholding? What is different between tomorrow and today?

[DiggitCamara]

And this is where I start to possibly step on peoples toes. With that in mind, I'll put out this disclaimer: I've noticed that certain players follow a completely different logic pattern than my own. Historically, logic incompatibilities have not been good indicators of scum, but I put out my thoughts here regarding DiggitCamara and IdleThoughts.

DiggitCamara I know for sure we have different views of the world, and things that look perfectly logical to him look like gibberish to me and vice versa. To me DiggitCamara has gone out of his way to find reason to question my roleclaim. I have the advantage of knowing my roleclaim to be truthful, so my analysis is unavoidably biased.
First, DiggitCamara supposed that I was a Cabalist and therefore knew the alignment of One And Only Wanderers and was banking on Fretful being turned into a Zombie and having her Side obfuscated. There are multiple problems with this line of logic. 1) Fretful is not guaranteed to become a zombie 2) The Vicar could bless Fretful 3) Zombies still have their Side and Role revealed on schedule. When corrected, suspicion was then shifted to my revealing Fretful's Side as a lucky guess. I do not follow this logic at all.
For some reason DiggitCamara was unwilling to let my role go and just wait for correct or incorrect data from me. I am suspicious of this behavior. But I must also state that I'm always suspicious of DiggitCamara so this might mean nothing at all.
Also there is the needling fact that in all the supposition, DiggitCamara takes OAOW as a Cabalist as a given, which is weird for a Townie to do. Why not suppose I knew Fretful's alignment and guessed OAOW? Something there just doesn't sit right with me.
There is also post 562 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=9046685&postcount=562) :

Which seems to indicate that DiggitCamara knows that OAOW false claimed, which I know to be true, but DiggitCamara should not know this to be true yet. Of course the rest of the post is so wacky that I can't really understand what is going on here.
Actually, like I stated before, my wrong interpretation of the rules prompted my mistaken attack on you. I still didn't see why you were withholding information from the town at large, but by now it seems you did so with good reason (trying to have wolves + cabalists trip over the information they had and that no one else could know).

I still will keep an eye on you (just in case some of your information turns out to be wrong) but for now I must say your position makes sense.

On that note, it seems you have a good point on Rysto's role, so I'll

vote Rysto

[CatInASuit]

I wish I had thought through the timescales for role revealing earlier, it would have saved so much hassle.

Pleonast: You have definitely been to Bastard ModTM school :p

[Rysto]

sachertorte, you could have saved us some grief toDay had you just revealed your info up-front. Oh well.

I'm inclined to believe you. Your claim about recruitment has the ring of truth. I agree with almost everything that you say, except for your suspicion of me, of course. Remember, f I know that you're the Coroner because I'm a Wolf or a Cabalist, I would know that you're not going to get any Sides wrong. If I know that, I know that there's no reason to bother with considering Vigging you.

Anyway, I was beginning to believe that Idle Thoughts was Town because I thought that sachertorte was holding back the Roles unnecessarily. Now that I know that there is a good reason, I have to wonder whether Idle Thoughts is another Townie who just didn't know any better or whether he's scum trying to get some critical information. Given how scummy I thought he looked earlier(and bringing up the mass-role claim looks even more sinister with the revelation of recruitment roles that look like the Witchdoctor's powers), I can't believe anything that he's saying.

Unvote sachertorte
Vote Idle Thoughts

[sachertorte]

Shadowfacts, it's not confusion, it is ambiguity. When I got my role I fired a bunch of PMs to Pleonast about recruitment. For the most part I got "That's for me to know and you to find out."
I don't know that Wolves definately can recruit or that Vampires definately can recruit. I just know that recruitment is a valid game mechanism and that it follows the pattern of witchdoctor enchantment, and that if anyone recruits it will be Vampire and/or Werewolf. I don't know what powers were explicitly given to the scum though, so my interpretation is just that, interpretation.

I'm kind of surprised that Pleonast is willing to let us quote PM's from him, my understanding is that this is usually not allowed. But since he says its okay, here you go:
20. Coroner (Occult) - sachertorte

You are a Coroner. You will automatically know the Role of each dead Player, even ones under the enchantment of the Witchdoctor. You also know that the curses of Vampires and Werewolves are infectious. Furthermore, you know a dead Player may come back as a Vampire or Werewolf. I will automatically inform you of your discovers.

Please PM, email me, or respond in the game thread http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=436661 to confirm that you have received your Role and are ready to play. The game will start on Friday Sept 28 at noon, Pacific Time.

Other details:
- Recruitment (curse actually) resolves like kills, that is, FILO (First In, Last Out).
- I do not know what will occur if scum try recruiting someone targetted by a Witchdoctor.
- I do not know how recruited roles will investigate.
- My reveals of alignment will have no effect on the Vigilante.
- I'm the one who nagged (his words) Pleonast into clarifying MHaye's misconception about Witchdoctor enchantees having their alignments revealed. I knew this had to be wrong because I knew about recruitment; and asked Pleonast to publicly clarify the Witchdoctor game mechanics.

[ShadowFacts]

On that note, it seems you have a good point on Rysto's role, so I'll
vote Rysto

(color removed)

I seem to have missed this in the massive info dump. Can you please explain what the case is against Rysto?

[DiggitCamara]

Agreed.
Also I will have revealed the Sides of Tonight's casualties (assuming I survive the night).
And, for my part, I'd like to hear a bit more about the resurrection possibilities (and, if it doesn't hurt, your role's involvement in that situation) as soon as possible.

Don't you think that would be a pretty good way to help Town?

[MHaye]

That's a lot of stuff to absorb.

My gut reaction to Sachertortes claim was that it sounds consistent with typical folklore for both Vampires and Werewolves. Possible, yes. Certain, no.

But it explains why the alignment of revived players is not revealed.

I'm very suspicious of Idle right now (when am I not?) as well as Rysto, for reasons given around the time I voted for him. The one factor that makes me hesitate to vote for Idle is that if Sach is telling the truth, there almost has to be a Witchdoctor, and no-one has risen up to counterclaim.. There's only 3½ hours remaining.

Vote for wh you believe is most likely to be scummy.

Unvote Rysto.
Vote Idle Thoughts.

A Witchdoctor claim makes a perfect cover for a recruiting scum.

[DiggitCamara]

(color removed)

I seem to have missed this in the massive info dump. Can you please explain what the case is against Rysto?
Well, as far as I understand it:

1. sachertorte withheld some information he had about the NightKills to see who would divulge information they couldn't have unless they were scum
2. Rysto touched upon the possible involvement of the vampire on the NightKills
3. sacher deduced that (possibly) the Nights events had involved an attack by the Wolves on a Vampire which backfired and killed the wolf commissioned with the attack (FretfulPorpentine)

So, Rysto's comment, in context, might indicate he knew that the Vampire somehow was involved in the werewolf's(?) death.

[ShadowFacts]

sachertorte, thanks for all of that detail - it was exactly what I was looking for. While of course you are still not confirmed, all signs point to you being legit at the moment.

I will also say that this does not necessarily mean that Idle is scum. I'm going to have to have a close look back at his (prolific) posts before I make any vote change.

[sachertorte]

(color removed)

I seem to have missed this in the massive info dump. Can you please explain what the case is against Rysto?
My info-dump split over two pages, Look at the bottom of Page 15:
Or click here Rysto (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=9059128&postcount=750)

And, for my part, I'd like to hear a bit more about the resurrection possibilities (and, if it doesn't hurt, your role's involvement in that situation) as soon as possible.

Don't you think that would be a pretty good way to help Town?
See Post 771. Was there something else you wanted?

[Rysto]

Rysto[/B] touched upon the possible involvement of the vampire on the NightKills
Excuse me? I did no such thing. I was talking about how trying to plan for every possible role claim was impossible, and backed that up with an example. I myself had said on Day 1 that the Werewolves would be happy to night-kill a claimed Seer, because even if it was the Vampire, for instance, the Wolves would kill off a competitor. That, as I said earlier toDay was balderdash because the Vampires can't be night-killed by anyone but the Vig. In fact, when I posted this I had totally forgotten that the whoever tries to night-kill a Vampire gets killed themselves!

[Hal Briston]

Catch-up time:
If you have time to post in several other threads and start a Pit thread, you have time to post here, IMO. Pshaw. Which takes longer -- a quick-hit post after scanning a thread, or catching up on a couple of pages of posts in a game that requires a thorough, careful read of every post? Starting a pit thread took five minutes -- catching up here took a couple of hours.

Upon further reading, thanks Zoggie and Blaster Master for noting the same points.

Now then, for my money, sachertorte seems legit. Because of this, and his greater knowledge, I'll trust his lead this time around and...

Vote Idle Thoughts

...and prepare to beat myself like a house elf if I'm wrong.

[ShadowFacts]

My info-dump split over two pages, Look at the bottom of Page 15:
Or click here Rysto (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=9059128&postcount=750)


Yep, I found it just as you posted that :)

I admit my head is spinning a bit after reading that, but it really seems like a pretty weak case to me. I'm not defending Rysto here, just saying that I do not appear to be seeing what you and Diggit are seeing.

[Santo Rugger]

Vote Idle Thoughts

Here's to hoping sach is legit.

Our offices have been moving this week. We're done now, so if I'm still around Tomorrow I'll post quite a bit more

[Idle Thoughts]

The town is simply going to have to be patient. I've given the matter considerable thought, and no Role information is going to be revealed by me Today. Simply put, I'm baffled by the logic put forth otherwise.

Idle Thoughts's statement that he will reveal his special power Tomorrow has me greatly concerned. I'm not sure how to interpret that. It's a bit ironic/hypocritical, but I'm left wondering, why tomorrow?

Because it was Midnight here and I was tired and wanted to sleep, that's why. Plus I figure I'll wait as long as possible toDay before revealing ALL of my powers. Stupid me, I figure I'll give the true Townies out there a chance to unvote so I wouldn't have to reveal all my powers. I meant tomorrow as in tomorrow REAL DAY (I.E. today) not Tomorrow Game Day.


What is so special about tomorrow? What does Idle Thoughts wish to do TONIGHT that he so desperately seems to want to do?

Sleep, which I did.

I have an idea, well more than an idea. I was going to do an information dump at the end of the Day to preserve my thoughts and information in case I die Tonight, but Idle Thoughts's desire to live through just one more night makes the reveal now, more apropos. It also explains why Idle Thoughts chose Witchdoctor as his roleclaim. (I hope I'm right about this).

I didn't say live through one more Night. I said very plainly:

"Tomorrow if I'm still in the hot seat".

That means TODAY before NOON PST. Not the next Day. You took tomorrow to mean another Night passes in the game. I meant tomorrow as in, I go to sleep, get up, and it's today.

Time to catch up on the topic.

[Idle Thoughts]

Anyway, I still appear to be in the hot seat so as promised TODAY (I.E. YESTERDAY I WOULD HAVE SAID "TOMORROW" :rolleyes:) here are my full powers.

I can bring back one person to life a Night. This power can only be used once on a person, however if it doesn't bring them back they may be enchanted again. It is only when a person is brought back (and it works) that I can't do it again.

But that's not all.


ONE time in the game, on ONE Night, I may talk with a dead person. This person MUST be a Townie. If it's not and I try to talk to them, I WASTE MY PRIVLEDGE OF DOING SO. I may talk with this person anytime after they're dead, but again, just as long as they are Town.

When I do, I will learn ALL they know. If it's the/a Dectective who is dead, I will learn all they knew up until death. If it's a Freemason, I will learn who the other Freemasons are and the secret sign of recognition. And..



...if it's a Witch, not ONLY will I know who the other Witches are, but THEY WILL KNOW WHO I AM (I assume this is because dead Witches are allowed to talk with their living counterparts).


So you see, I can take the place of any dead role that has knowledge or info if need be.


So, what do we have here?
We have you all about to lynch me, your own Witchdoctor because:

1. I was suspicious of sach for not saying a "he is" or "isn't" "a Freemason"
2. My question about mass-roleclaiming is being used against me because it's being twisted to look like it was an idea and
3. Because sach thought I meant tomorrow as in the next game Day other than tomorrow TOMORROW.


All of this even though:

1. I am one of the most powerful roles in the game.
2. I'm betting there's only one of me and
3. There have been no counterclaims.


Do I have this all right?

Whoever you true Townies out there who are voting for me, you're being incredibly foolish right now.

[ShadowFacts]

Catch-up time:
Pshaw. Which takes longer -- a quick-hit post after scanning a thread, or catching up on a couple of pages of posts in a game that requires a thorough, careful read of every post? Starting a pit thread took five minutes -- catching up here took a couple of hours.

Upon further reading, thanks Zoggie and Blaster Master for noting the same points.

Look, I'm getting as tired of posting about non-participation as everyone else is about hearing about it from me. I fell like I'm setting myself up to get lynched because people are going to be sick of hearing from the Game Nanny (tm) :D This is going to be my last post on the topic (although I will still vote for non-participators).

But the simple point of fact is this: the less you post, the less likely you are to be on anyone's radar, and scum use that fact to hide. It's happened in every game I've read here on the Dope. It's happening in this game right now. Who are the least prolific posters? You, nesta, MadtheSwine, maybe Blaster. Is there any discussion about any of you (besides from me)? No. Does anyone have you on their suspicion lists? Doesn't seem like it. We know next to nothing about what you think, who you suspect, etc. Fast forward a couple Days to when we start hearing about how people aren't sure who to vote for because they "can't get a read on ."

Participation from everyone is important to the Town. We need people to post, to get their thoughts and also in the hopes that scum will slip up. The ONLY way to catch scum is for them to post and vote so we can catch them lying, look at voting patterns, etc. It is in scum's best interest to play it safe, post as little as possible, and let the Town attack each other. Everyone knows it. Town players have to "man up", take the risks that posting entails, and PLAY.

Blaster Master is correct when he says that non-participation is not necessarily a scum tell. There are many reasons why someone may not be able to post much. But not participating [I]is not helping the town, and that should be reason enough for any townie to participate. I don't understand why this isn't blatantly obvious to everyone.

That's it. Rant over. Hopefully that's the last I'll ever say about it. :cool:

[Idle Thoughts]

which baffles me because in my opinion such data would be of very little value towards confirming my role.

Yeah, it would.

Plus it would let ME have know he WAS a Freemason and I might have taken a chance in talking with him this upcoming Night (I.E. Before we learned his role). But you refuse to give that knowledge out.

It is my opinion that revealing Side information of the essentially random players that end up dead is a very powerful indicator that I'm telling the truth. Also I can demonstrate this ability every DAY.

I can become known to the Witches if I talk to one of them after they die and I will learn who the rest are. I am certainly verifiable too. More than you, I'd say.
I can also talk with amr and learn all HE knew, who the other Freemasons are, knowing the secret sign, AND STILL HAVING MY RESURRECTION POWER NIGHTLY. It's so dumb that you guys are willing to lynch me off when there is almost nothing against me and nobody has counter-claimed.

So I am left wondering about Idle Thoughts. He seems quite keen on squeezing as much information out of me as possible. It's possibly legitimate Town curiosity, but why the interest in amrussell specifically and less so on Fretful Porpentine? Is he scum wanting to know as much as possible about amrussell? Does he already know Fretful's Role and is therefore not as interested in her?

The whole thing doesn't make sense to me. I don't really see scum making the production that Idle Thoughts did, but something about the entire exchange just bugs me.

Either because you're blindsided or you're scum.

The Witchdoctor should be able to confirm whether or not he/she enchanted the revived player. If the witchdoctor is dead, well you know what to do.

And the latter is soon about to be the case if people don't unvote me in about 2 more hours.

Now that brings us to Idle Thoughts and the needling fact that I'm not confirmed yet.

It is my opinion that Idle Thoughts has the 'special power' of recruitment. This would explain why he is so keen on revealing his power Tomorrow instead of Today.

As I've said already, I meant tomorrow WEDNESDAY, since it was TUESDAY for me when I made that post. REread it. It's glaringly obvious. You have nothing on me there. :rolleyes:

From my perspective, Idle Thought's plan is:
Today, Roleclaim Witchdoctor
Tonight, Recruit player A
Tomorrow, "Wow, look player A is dead! But I enchanted him! He'll be back tomorrow. This will confirm I'm the Witchdoctor!"

It's nice to think that isn't it? But this is before you knew about my full powers. IT'S VERY EASY FOR ME TO BE CONFIRMED. I will just wait and talk with another player that I know to be Town, preferribly a Witch. They will then ALL KNOW I'm telling the truth, plus I will know who they are, PLUS I WILL STILL HAVE MY POWERS to enchant one person a Night.



The problem is, I'm not confirmed yet; so the Town has little reason to believe me yet.
If we wait until tomorrow, Idle Thoughts will have the opportunity to recruit...[/quote]

Only thing is, I meant tomorrow = today, in that post. So you're way off your rocker here.

[Idle Thoughts]

Why no statement about Fretful Porpentine? I read this as "I killed amrussell, I didn't recruit her"
When I saw that recruitment was an option, I felt that maybe the Vampire would opt to recruit ASAP since if he died, then the opportunity is wasted. I was also worried that if amrussell were recruited she would reveal who all the other masons are (immunity makes sense from a game balance point of view now that I think about it). So the good news is amrussell was not recruited, at least not by Idle Thoughts.

I wasn't even voting for amrussell. I didn't enchant him last Night.

The person I DID enchant was YOU, if you want to know, because I actually believed, at first, you were the Coroner. Silly me, huh! But then, come Day (this one), you not able to reveal if amr was a Freemason or not made me suspicious.

I had another thought about Idle Thoughts:
When Idle Thoughts first stated that he had a secret power, my immediate reaction was I believed it. I had secret information, so it made sense to me that other players might also have secret information (or powers). But as I thought about the situation, the probability that 'secret power' == scum recruitment became greater and greater.
I bring this up because Idle Thoughts was riding me very hard saying there is no reason why I would not reveal more information about amrussell. If Idle Thoughts is truly pro-town and truly had a secret power, then he would not have pursued me with such vigor. Any Townie with a secret power would have assumed something secret was why I was being so silent.

Sorry, but the two are not equal. YOU could say if someone is a role or not and it gives nothing away. MY power, as you see, could actually have been used by Scum to say "oh hey, I'm a Witchdoctor and here's a secret power" had I come out with it. That was my ace in the hole. Seriously. If everyone knows ALL ABOUT A CERTAIN ROLE, they can then successfully claim it without anyone going "ahhh, but I am this role too and THIS is secret power you apparently don't know about. Thus I don't think you are this role".

Whereas your info in just saying "YES OR NO" to something doesn't give any info. We're going to learn it Tomorrow anyway (note the cap there, sach. I ALWAYS CAP Day when I mean game Day and lowercase it when I mean real life day.). Only then, you'll also be short one Witchdoctor to help you.


I can bring people back to LIFE. AND THEY'D KNOW their killers!
I can learn all that people know about their role at the time of their death. ALL INFO that they know.
I'm probably one of the most powerful roles in the game!

Yet you all are really ready to lynch me, even though there has been no counter-claim and all you have is two things that are wrong (me being tomorrow/today and my "idea" of mass roleclaiming being a question) and one thing that I've seen about SEVEN OTHERS say is suspicious too (the fact that sach wasn't saying anything either way)?

My God.

[Rysto]

I'm not surprised that there have been no counter-claims to the Witchdoctor(counter-claiming would be a death sentence), but...

I think that I believe you. The special ability you claim is perfectly in keeping with your claimed role.

I'm beginning to have grave misgivings about the lynch Idle bandwagon. For one thing, it seems like too many people are getting on it -- that can be a sign of a Townsperson getting railroaded(or, that Idle is Undead). The sequence of events with sachertorte is really making me uneasy now. He steadfastly refused to give any reasons for not revealing Roles, but then, as soon as there's a Witchdoctor claim, he says that some scum might have resurrection abilities like the Witchdoctor's. It seems a bit convenient. I'm not entirely happy with how cagey sachertorte's been today and we need to remember that the only thing that we have in favour of his claim is his information, which we can't confirm at all. I might feel better if we could hold off a bit and see Pleonast's Side reveals before acting on this information.

*sigh* These role claims have me all confused. I need to do a re-read.

[Idle Thoughts]

I never expected that Idle Thoughts would tip his hand and allow me to expose recruitment in this way. (Plus I could be wrong about Idle Thoughts. I don't know that he's scum, I just very very strongly suspect).

Whatever, you're just covering your own ass here so when it's shown that I'm Town and then that I'm the Witchdoctor, nobody will be against you.

But you just voted for me in the light of a powerful roleclaim with no counterclaim. If I go, I hope you're next.

[Idle Thoughts]

Idle Thoughts, I am rapidly beginning to believe that you are full of shit.

Again, you have ignored this point. Even though you quoted it, you continue to ignore it:

Idle Thoughts, where is the coroner if not him?

Maybe being silent right now? Maybe there isn't one? Or maybe sach is him and he's just ignorant to the fact that revealing roles (or, at the least, just saying he is or isn't something) wouldn't give any extra info or advantage to scum?


In addition, why is it appropriate for you to withhold information from us regarding your "secret power" when you pressed sach so hard for information that you felt he was withholding? What is different between tomorrow and today?
Read my reply to sach about it. The two are not alike. I have given a reason why. HE had given NO reason (and nobody else could come up with any good reasons either).

[Boozahol Squid, P.I.]

I'm not surprised that there have been no counter-claims to the Witchdoctor(counter-claiming would be a death sentence), but...

I think that I believe you. The special ability you claim is perfectly in keeping with your claimed role.

I'm beginning to have grave misgivings about the lynch Idle bandwagon. For one thing, it seems like too many people are getting on it -- that can be a sign of a Townsperson getting railroaded(or, that Idle is Undead). The sequence of events with sachertorte is really making me uneasy now. He steadfastly refused to give any reasons for not revealing Roles, but then, as soon as there's a Witchdoctor claim, he says that some scum might have resurrection abilities like the Witchdoctor's. It seems a bit convenient. I'm not entirely happy with how cagey sachertorte's been today and we need to remember that the only thing that we have in favour of his claim is his information, which we can't confirm at all. I might feel better if we could hold off a bit and see Pleonast's Side reveals before acting on this information.

*sigh* These role claims have me all confused. I need to do a re-read.


I'm really confused by your tack here, Rysto. sachertorte has already said that he's going to reveal his info at the 11th hour, in order to clear himself. Are you suggesting a no-lynch? Or that we lynch sachertorte, anyways?

[Idle Thoughts]

HEY! SACH POSTED HER PM!

Does that mean I can post mine too?

THAT'S AGAINST THE RULES!

[Idle Thoughts]

Man, that's bullshit.

I'm going to post my PM if he's allowed to.

I was not aware we could quote PMs word for word in this game. Well, fuck, I'll do that too and let you all see for yourself.

[Idle Thoughts]

01. Witchdoctor (Speaker for the Dead) - Idle Thoughts

You are a Witchdoctor. Each Night you may enchant one Player who, if killed that Night, will come back from the dead the morning after the next Night. Please PM or email me your target before the end of each Night. Each Player may only be saved this way once. As the Speaker for the Dead, you have a Secret Power: once per game, instead of enchanting a Player, you may instead talk with the soul of a dead Townie. You will learn any and all information they have. Because dead Witches have access to the results of the living Witches, you can learn a lot by consulting a dead Witch. The dead Witch will even to report back to her living sisters information you have (such as what actions you have taken).

Please PM, email me, or respond in the game thread http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb...ad.php?t=436661 to confirm that you have received your Role and are ready to play. The game will start on Friday Sept 28 at noon, Pacific Time.

Here you go.

[Rysto]

I'm really confused by your tack here, Rysto. sachertorte has already said that he's going to reveal his info at the 11th hour, in order to clear himself. Are you suggesting a no-lynch? Or that we lynch sachertorte, anyways?
I'm just expressing misgivings about the origins of this bandwagon, is all. We shouldn't even consider lynching sach before we get Side information from Pleonast. I'm just wondering if proceeding blindly based on his information is a good idea when we'll have a much better idea tomorrow whether sach really is the Coroner.

[Hal Briston]

Crapitty.

Unvote Idle Thoughts

Just can't do it...losing the Witch Doctor would be too big a blow. As to where my vote goes, I now officially have no fricking clue...

[ShadowFacts]

I'm just expressing misgivings about the origins of this bandwagon, is all. We shouldn't even consider lynching sach before we get Side information from Pleonast. I'm just wondering if proceeding blindly based on his information is a good idea when we'll have a much better idea tomorrow whether sach really is the Coroner.

sachertorte's reliability aside, I think we need to consider the possibility that sach and Idle could both be Town.

[Idle Thoughts]

It was foolish to vote for me in the first place. What? that I said "tomorrow" and MEANT literally, tomorrow? :rolleyes:

That I had a question about something earlier and it's not painted as an "idea" or "suggestion"?

Or the fact that I just thought sach should say if a player was a Freemason or not...something many others found suspicious?

Geez, come on people. Are we really willing to lynch powerful roles, even in the event of no counterclaim AND IT BEING VERIFIED EASILY, like mine is (see, I learn the info of other power roles)?

If so, you true Town out there are toast.

The scum are going to have a field day about PMs being posted. But how was that fair? That sach got to post his? And of all the posts that followed, I didn't see ANY abomination of it. No, "hmm, I don't know if you should have done that". Just all going "okay, we believe you, sach, let's vote Idle Thoughts based on virtually nothing" I mean what does that do? It makes people, in their minds, see that PM and go "wow, he's telling the truth."

That's not fair, and even if he's modkilled, it DOESN'T MATTER, because he'd then be revealed as the Coroner and everyone would go onto ME no matter WHAT I SAID. So the only fair thing, then, is for me to be able/allowed to post my PM.

[Idle Thoughts]

not=now in the post above.

[Hockey Monkey]

Let me get this out of the way before time runs out.

Unvote Idle Thoughts

We can't take the chance on lynching him now. Sachertorte's reason's for not revealing the additional information make a lot of sense. I can now see why Idle was pushing for the info in light of his secret power. I think they are both who they say they are. Which leaves me to vote for the next person I think is scum. After reading through Sach's manifesto, Rysto is not looking too good in my eyes.

Vote Rysto

[DiggitCamara]

Excuse me? I did no such thing. I was talking about how trying to plan for every possible role claim was impossible, and backed that up with an example. I myself had said on Day 1 that the Werewolves would be happy to night-kill a claimed Seer, because even if it was the Vampire, for instance, the Wolves would kill off a competitor. That, as I said earlier toDay was balderdash because the Vampires can't be night-killed by anyone but the Vig. In fact, when I posted this I had totally forgotten that the whoever tries to night-kill a Vampire gets killed themselves!
I was quoting sachertorte's case against you:


(snip)
On a Day Two re-read I noticed that my realization that Fretful was possibly a Vampire-backfire victim did not come from nowhere, it comes from Rysto's post 561 where he states:

There's way too many possible roleclaims for us to fully appreciate all of the subtleties of any one roleclaim. For example, just yesterDay I said that a Werewolf would be happy to kill a claimed Seer because they'll either kill the real Seer or opposing scum like the Vampire. Of course, the Vampire can't be night-killed by the Wolves so that was a nonsense piece of reasoning.

Why the sudden change in perspective? Is it possible that Rysto, along with Fretful Porpentine selected the Vampire and had Fretful do the deed, and so the events of Night One reminded Rysto of the Vampires night abilities? I find it peculiar that Rysto mentions the Vampire's night abilities so early in Day Two.
In the same post (561) Rysto also states:


and as you can see, you did mention the Vampire. You may not have mentioned his specific abilities but the theory sacher expanded on resonates with me nonetheless.

[ShadowFacts]

The scum are going to have a field day about PMs being posted. But how was that fair? That sach got to post his? And of all the posts that followed, I didn't see ANY abomination of it. No, "hmm, I don't know if you should have done that". Just all going "okay, we believe you, sach, let's vote Idle Thoughts based on virtually nothing" I mean what does that do? It makes people, in their minds, see that PM and go "wow, he's telling the truth."

That's not fair, and even if he's modkilled, it DOESN'T MATTER, because he'd then be revealed as the Coroner and everyone would go onto ME no matter WHAT I SAID. So the only fair thing, then, is for me to be able/allowed to post my PM.

You know, Idle, I actually think the case against you is fairly weak. You'll note that I have not voted for you yet. I think much of the reason you are being voted for is your attitude, as typified in the quote above.

Look back - Pleonast was specifically asked if players could quote their Role PMs. He said "yes." So sachertorte posted his. Nothing nefarious - no reason for anyone to "abominate" it. No reason to for anyone to be modkilled. Your flailing around about it makes you look like a fool.

[ShadowFacts]

EBWOP: Sorry, "fool" may have been a little harsh in my post above. I apologize if that was out of line. Perhaps "petulant whiner" would be more appropriate.

[Idle Thoughts]

You know, Idle, I actually think the case against you is fairly weak. You'll note that I have not voted for you yet. I think much of the reason you are being voted for is your attitude, as typified in the quote above.

Look back - Pleonast was specifically asked if players could quote their Role PMs. He said "yes." So sachertorte posted his. Nothing nefarious - no reason for anyone to "abominate" it. No reason to for anyone to be modkilled. Your flailing around about it makes you look like a fool.


Oh, he did? I have to admit, I did not see this post. It was always restricted in all the games before this one. I guess I just figured it was in this one too.

[Idle Thoughts]

But anyway, only one more hour to go. I'm pretty sure I still have the most votes, so you all are about to either kill off or let your Witchdoctor die. If that happens, I only hope there's another out there (but again, reading my full powers, I find it hard to believe there are two, because that is pretty strong power).

Unvote sach

I don't know who to vote for. I spent all day either defending myself or asking sach why he wasn't revealing something that wasn't any advantage to scum that I saw but MAJORLY advantagous to me if he IS a Freemason.

[Rysto]

I was quoting sachertorte's case against you:
You were misquoting it, implying that I said that Fretful may have tried to night-kill the Vampire when really I was saying no such thing. Even sachertorte left of a good bit of context which makes it clear what I was really referring to:

This is an infinitely better situation than what happened in Day One, where we had mass confusion in the last few hours. Getting the votes in a mere 24 hours early is nothing when a Day lasts 120. We need the time to discuss the role claims and decide what to do from there. We can't decide ahead of time for two reasons:

There's way too many possible roleclaims for us to fully appreciate all of the subtleties of any one roleclaim. For example, just yesterDay I said that a Werewolf would be happy to kill a claimed Seer because they'll either kill the real Seer or opposing scum like the Vampire. Of course, the Vampire can't be night-killed by the Wolves so that was a nonsense piece of reasoning.

Second, planning our strategy ahead of time and letting the scum know what it is only serves to tell the scum exactly what kind of roleclaim will work. This is not a good idea. We're far better off to get the votes in a bit early and then spend the last 24 hours deciding how to deal with our roleclaim. We'll waste far less time discussing scenarios that will never happen and we won't telegraph our intentions to the scum.

And oh, by the way, guess who was right? Look at this. One hour before the deadline and we don't have a clue what we're doing. For the last time, we need people to get votes in earlier.

and as you can see, you did mention the Vampire. You may not have mentioned his specific abilities but the theory sacher expanded on resonates with me nonetheless.
I never denied mentioning the Vampire! In the first post that you quoted I explicitly say that I mentioned the Vampire!

You seem to be trying to distort what I've said. I don't like that.

Unvote Idle
Vote DiggitCamera

[Pleonast]

Just to be absolutely clear: Players may post what they claim to be their Role PM. I will not confirm the accuracy of these posts.

The reason I am allowing this is because in this game there are no duplicate PMs, as is usual in games with vanilla Townies. No Player can determine the authenticity of a putative Role PM solely by comparing it to his own Role PM.

[Blaster Master]

That's a lot of stuff to absorb.

My gut reaction to Sachertortes claim was that it sounds consistent with typical folklore for both Vampires and Werewolves. Possible, yes. Certain, no.

But it explains why the alignment of revived players is not revealed.

...

A Witchdoctor claim makes a perfect cover for a recruiting scum.

This thought just occurred to me... it makes perfect sense why the coroner should be aware of a recruitment possibility. If it is going to follow the method that sachetorte outlines (which makes sense) then he would have complete information on the dead individual which would serve to HEAVILY sway his information incorrectly, when it'd, in fact, be false information that the rest of the town did not have.

Now, one possibility for no counter-claim of Idle Thoughts is that, if he's lying, the real Witch Doctor doesn't think it's worth claiming when he can just keep his vote on Idle Thoughts. OTOH, we now being aware of this mechanic, and knowing that the Witches are almost certainly in the game if the Cabal are (which means Idle Thoughts would have had reason to believe sachetorte's claim at the start, if he isn't in fact Cabal himself, either of which makes him scum), then it might make sense that the Witch Doctor isn't even in the game and it might make a safe claim.

Thus, a claim of Witch Doctor could fail to be counter-claimed on two counts.



However, I'm not sure last Night can be taken so much at face value. One thing that I'd also failed to take into account is the possibility of the Magician to the mix. If the Magician was targetted, chances are he would have thrown his power onto someone he found suspicious. Since I see no reason to find anyone suspicious, I'd guess that he probably wasn't targetted last Night. OTOH, he could have also guessed that he'd be sure he was town and if he chose someone at random, he'd be fairly likely to hit scum.

[CatInASuit]

<rant on>
Idle Thoughts
1. You got yourself into this situation, no-one did, else so stop complaining.

2. In terms of today/tomorrow. I thought you were going to wait until Day 3 to tell everyone what you super secret special powers, so I am not surprised that other people did as well.

3. In terms of quoting PMs, I think you are both idiots for doing so, because you tell the scum exactly what you are capable of. It also doesn't confirm you in any way whatsoever
<rant off>

Having got that out of my system, I can now the reasons for the ways both of you have been acting.

Oh grief. :dubious:

I am now going to go back check out my scum list, see if anything has changed and work out who to vote for next.

in the meanwhile

unvote Idle Thoughts

Don't think you are off the hook Idle Thoughts, you are still the scummiest looking and I want to check your previous posts to make sure they tally.

[Rysto]

Pleonast, I think that your vote count is wrong. I count 10 votes and 4 unvotes for Idle.

However, I'm not sure last Night can be taken so much at face value. One thing that I'd also failed to take into account is the possibility of the Magician to the mix. If the Magician was targetted, chances are he would have thrown his power onto someone he found suspicious.
There's also the possibility of the Warlock, although if it was the Warlock's curse that killed Fretful that doesn't change sach's argument against me.

[CatInASuit]

The boards are getting creaky for me.

If people are going to act, act quickly. We don't want a repeat of last week.

Although considering we possibly lynched a Cabalist, maybe its not such a bad idea ;)

j/k Idle j/k

[Idle Thoughts]

Now, one possibility for no counter-claim of Idle Thoughts is that, if he's lying, the real Witch Doctor doesn't think it's worth claiming when he can just keep his vote on Idle Thoughts. OTOH, we now being aware of this mechanic, and knowing that the Witches are almost certainly in the game if the Cabal are (which means Idle Thoughts would have had reason to believe sachetorte's claim at the start, if he isn't in fact Cabal himself, either of which makes him scum), then it might make sense that the Witch Doctor isn't even in the game and it might make a safe claim.

You must have no caught up yet. Tell me when you get to where I say my full powers. I can learn the info of any role that is in the game at the time of their death so long as they are Town. If the Dectective dies and hadn't yet revealed him or herself, I can talk with their dead spirit and get all the investigations. If a Freemason dies (I.E. amrussell maybe), I can talk with him or her and learn who the other Freemasons are and what the secret sign is (you don't think that would be verification?--Thing is, I didn't KNOW if amrussell was really a Freemason. Silly me, I expected the role of the Coroner to give out all the info like the role says he can do). If a Witch dies, I can talk with one and learn all that they know and not only that, they would know who I was. That I, Idle Thoughts, was the/a Witchdoctor. How is that not verification?

And on top of all of this, I am able to bring players back to life. BACK INTO THE GAME. Do you not think this would be a huge loss if I were to be lynched? I posted my PM, does it not look legit?

And this just isn't to you, BM, it's to everyone who is currently voting for me.
All I have to say is, if anyone still hold their votes on me even though all of this only came from one of three things I can think of (two of them which were false and the other which many others were suspicious over and said so), then I can only think that they are scum and if I die, I REALLY hope the true Townies go for them next and avenge me.

Thus, a claim of Witch Doctor could fail to be counter-claimed on two counts.



However, I'm not sure last Night can be taken so much at face value. One thing that I'd also failed to take into account is the possibility of the Magician to the mix. If the Magician was targetted, chances are he would have thrown his power onto someone he found suspicious. Since I see no reason to find anyone suspicious, I'd guess that he probably wasn't targetted last Night. OTOH, he could have also guessed that he'd be sure he was town and if he chose someone at random, he'd be fairly likely to hit scum.[/QUOTE]


I can be verified many ways. I can bring people back to life. I can learn ALL of the info of any townie role that they knew upon death. And in the case of the Witches, they'll know I'm who I say I am too, if I talk with one of them after they die. And I'd still have my own power.

AND, not to mention, those who are revived by me, KNOW THE NAME OF THEIR KILLER.


Those voting for me are doing so based on one of three things, two of them which are false and one which everyone else expressed at least some suspicion of.

Yet those voters seem to be willing to lynch me off regardless.

Therefore I can only think that anyone who still holds their vote on me by this Day's end has got to be scum grasping at straws and trying to get me killed in the Day since they they know I'm too powerful to be left in the game.

[Idle Thoughts]

Arrggghhh...that post above didn't go through the first time, so now it looks all weird because I'm basically saying the same thing twice. :p

[Blaster Master]

Oh, for the love of God, now we have PM posting? :dubious:

Agh, I'm sufficiently satisfied that they may be telling the truth, that I don't think it's worth lynching either today. So, to the next person for whom I wouldn't mind seeing lynched...

Unvote Idle Thoughts
Vote Drain Bead

[Blaster Master]

On further reflection, Idle, you're pretty much confirmed after Tonight...

You're pretty much stuck protecting yourself Tonight, which means if you're targetted, you die, Sach gets your role, and then you come back a Day later, at which point the Witches can protect you, because when one of them dies, you get talk to her and get her information without revealing the other two.

If you don't die tonight, that means either the Witches believed you and decided to protect you, or you're scum.

Oy... this is getting confusing.

[MHaye]

*sigh* Just as well I got back on for Dusk.

A quick check of [post=9059001]746[/post reveals that Idle did not capitalisethe word "tomorrow." Consequently I for one am willing to believe that he meant "when I get online in the morning."

Unvote Idle Thoughts.

Where do we go from here? Don't ask me. I'm just ging to go back to my former vote, because I'm still suspicious of him. Perhaps I'll find something better, and perhaps I won't.

[color=blue]Vote Rysto.

[MHaye]

:smack:

EBWOQ*sigh* Just as well I got back on for Dusk.

A quick check of 746 reveals that Idle did not capitalize the word "tomorrow." Consequently I for one am willing to believe that he meant "when I get online in the morning."

Unvote Idle Thoughts.

Where do we go from here? Don't ask me. I'm just ging to go back to my former vote, because I'm still suspicious of him. Perhaps I'll find something better, and perhaps I won't.

Vote Rysto.

That fixes two failures to close tags and missing a space out.

[Pleonast]

Warning: I sometimes miss votes, like Blaster Master's in post 696. I'm not sure why, I did. But it's probably wise to double-check that I recorded your vote.

[Freudian Slit]

Okay, the PM doesn't entirely convince me, because as Pleo clarified, he's not going to verify them. But the what if is haunting--what if Idle is telling the truth? what if sacher has a good reason for holding out? (And wow, can I just say that I really can't wait to know about Once and Only Wanderers?)

I'm going to unvote Idle Thoughts

and

go back to my last suspicion of Diggit.

Vote DiggitCamara

[Idle Thoughts]

<rant on>
Idle Thoughts
1. You got yourself into this situation, no-one did, else so stop complaining.

Oh please.

I did NOTHING. All I did was ask and pressure sach into saying IF OR IF NOT amrussell was a Freemason. You and others have failed to give any good reason WHY the info should be withheld. Especially considering sach said he's revealing it ANYWAY later. :rolleyes: Well, gee, if only he had done that earlier.

The other things are just all bullcrap. What "why wait until tomorrow? so you can have a free night?" Whatever. That's so stupid I can't even wrap my head around it. I meant TOMORROW as in, Wednesday, October tenth since at the time of the post it was Tuesday, October ninth. Not "Tomorrow" as in the Day after this one in-game. I thought it was pretty clear myself in that post and it boggles the mind why nobody would or could ever think I COULD have meant it that way. Everyone was just so quick to jump on the bandwagon. There WERE NO OTHER ways I was suspicious other than asking for and putting pressure on sach, in part because there IS NO reason to withhold it and in part because I WOULD HELP ME too if she's Town as I could talk with amr having a strong sense he's really what he said he was and learn who the other Freemasons are, and become, in a way, a Freemason myself only with the power to revive people so that they'll know their killers.


Any way you cut it...it's a great loss to Town. Even if you THINK I'm lying, what is people's motives for not giving me the benifet of the doubt since the risk of being wrong is far greater than if I'm really it? It's just foolish play. There has been no other claims and scum have to be drooling right now and trying their best to help this along to kill me off right now.

2. In terms of today/tomorrow. I thought you were going to wait until Day 3 to tell everyone what you super secret special powers, so I am not surprised that other people did as well.

I said tomorrow, lowercase. Not Tomorrow. I also said "if the heat is still on"...since I was the top vote getting yesterday when I roleclaimed and then left, WHY would I say "if I'm still in the hot seat"? I think I'd be more apt to say "If I survive somehow, tomorrow, and then am still in the hot seat the next Day.

Please note, In EVERY past game, I don't USE tomorrow or yesterday meaning Days in the game. If I do, I cap the word. yesterDay. ToDay. The next Day (I've even gone so far as to say: TomorrDay).

"tomorrow" means tomorrow. How else can I say it?

Don't think you are off the hook Idle Thoughts, you are still the scummiest looking and I want to check your previous posts to make sure they tally.

Have at it.

[Rysto]

You're pretty much stuck protecting yourself Tonight, which means if you're targetted, you die, Sach gets your role, and then you come back a Day later, at which point the Witches can protect you, because when one of them dies, you get talk to her and get her information without revealing the other two.

If you don't die tonight, that means either the Witches believed you and decided to protect you, or you're scum.
Unless the scum don't want to risk reveal one of their number by killing someone who they know to be protected by the Witchdoctor. There's no IMO that the Vampire would risk detection like this. Maybe the Wolves would be willing to trade a Wolf for the Witchdoctor.

Or maybe they won't kill him and then tomorrow say, "How come the scum didn't kill you? You must be scum yourself!" Just like what you did here, in fact. :dubious:

[Idle Thoughts]

On further reflection, Idle, you're pretty much confirmed after Tonight...

You're pretty much stuck protecting yourself Tonight, which means if you're targetted, you die, Sach gets your role, and then you come back a Day later, at which point the Witches can protect you, because when one of them dies, you get talk to her and get her information without revealing the other two.

If you don't die tonight, that means either the Witches believed you and decided to protect you, or you're scum.

Oy... this is getting confusing.

Yeah, well, let's just say I already have my own plan regarding all that, but I'm not going to post it publically, for obvious reasons.

But I agree with you mostly.

[sachertorte]

Seriously, we're going to lynch Drain Bead? This is insane.

Look, I accept that Idle Thoughts may have been talking about calendar days instead of game days. But there are plenty of other reasons to suspect him.

Also, his powerclaim is way over the top. How can there be a role with that many powers? It doesn't make sense. Enchantment, Resurrection and talking with the dead? Too much.

Plus there is the problem with his confirmation mechanism. While he states that he can talk with the dead/resurrect, how long are we going to wait until he does so? Are we really going to wait until there is a dead witch?

I suppose we can hold off on Idle Thoughts without too much damage, but are we willing to lynch someone without time for a defense?

[Santo Rugger]

Idle, I'm confused about one point. You talk about all the good you can do if you talk to certain roles, but how the heck are you supposed to know a dead person's role? Basically, a Coroner would have to confirm it for you, in order for your secret power to be worth a darn?

[Rysto]

Also, his powerclaim is way over the top. How can there be a role with that many powers? It doesn't make sense. Enchantment, Resurrection and talking with the dead? Too much.
Uh, enchantment and resurrection are the same power, aren't they?

[Idle Thoughts]

Unless the scum don't want to risk reveal one of their number by killing someone who they know to be protected by the Witchdoctor. There's no IMO that the Vampire would risk detection like this. Maybe the Wolves would be willing to trade a Wolf for the Witchdoctor.

Or maybe they won't kill him and then tomorrow say, "How come the scum didn't kill you? You must be scum yourself!" Just like what you did here, in fact. :dubious:


Hence my "mostly" at the end of that last post.
If I don't die, I don't see why it has to be one or the other, like you say.
I wouldn't want to take my chances with the Witchdoctor either. Cause if I die and am enchanting myself, I'll be coming back with a name, trust me (as will anyone else if I enchant them and they die). So it all depends if they want to risk a Wolf/Undead against me (and possibly being protected after that).

[CatInASuit]

Well, the next one on my list is DiggitCamara.

However, If I vote for him we wind up with a tie and a no-lynch.

Oh grief. :(

[HazelNutCoffee]

Ugh. I have a headache.

Hm. It's past noon PST isn't it?

[Rysto]

We have 8 minutes.

[HazelNutCoffee]

Ooops, never mind. We still have a few minutes left.

[sachertorte]

This is a train wreck.

[Idle Thoughts]

Seriously, we're going to lynch Drain Bead? This is insane.

Look, I accept that Idle Thoughts may have been talking about calendar days instead of game days. But there are plenty of other reasons to suspect him.

Also, his powerclaim is way over the top. How can there be a role with that many powers? It doesn't make sense. Enchantment, Resurrection and talking with the dead? Too much.

Enchantment/Resurrection are the same thing. :dubious: So what are you talking about? One leads to the other. They are not separate things.

And I can only use that talking ONE time in the entire game. And it must be with a Town person. If I make a mistake and talk with the scum, I waste (and lose) it. That is why I must have the Coroner help me in a way, you know? For the GOOD of Town? If I can't trust that you're the Coroner, then I can't rightly take your word for things, now can I?

Now I'm willing to believe you now, based on the PM, but WHY you're STILL trying to make a case for me is just so absurd on so many levels.

Plus there is the problem with his confirmation mechanism. While he states that he can talk with the dead/resurrect, how long are we going to wait until he does so? Are we really going to wait until there is a dead witch?

Heck, I was ready to talk with a dead Freemason if amr was one. But I don't KNOW that, do I? NOBODY knows that but you and you refuse to give it out.

[Santo Rugger]

I sure am glad Idle waited until the last possible moment to claim.

[Idle Thoughts]

Idle, I'm confused about one point. You talk about all the good you can do if you talk to certain roles, but how the heck are you supposed to know a dead person's role? Basically, a Coroner would have to confirm it for you, in order for your secret power to be worth a darn?

For all you 35 point font fans of mine out there..

EXACTLY.

NOW do you realize why I was trying to get sach to say yes or no to FREEMASON ALL THAT TIME? Geez, people. Not to mention there should be no reason to HOLD back that info at all.

[Hockey Monkey]

:::chews fingernails:::

[sachertorte]

Um, Inconsistency?

I can bring back one person to life a Night. This power can only be used once on a person, however if it doesn't bring them back they may be enchanted again. It is only when a person is brought back (and it works) that I can't do it again.

That looks like resurrection to me, and looks inconsitent to how I read the Witchdoctor's Enchanment that Pleonast posted.

Idle Thoughts == SCUM.

[sachertorte]

Idle, how about this. talk to amrussell tonight. I told you she was TOWN that's enough. You can ask her her role.

[Blaster Master]

For all you 35 point font fans of mine out there..

EXACTLY.

NOW do you realize why I was trying to get sach to say yes or no to FREEMASON ALL THAT TIME? Geez, people. Not to mention there should be no reason to HOLD back that info at all.
[Size changed to not look like Idle Thoughts]

Why would you waste your power on a mason when you can talk to a seer, detective or witch?

[CatInASuit]

It's not an inconsistency. It means that if the power is not used on that night, they can do it over and over again on the same person until it is used up on that person.

I think it's over now for Drain Bead though

[Rysto]

I dunno. Is it worth it to waste Idle's ability to validate his claim? His call, I guess.

[DiggitCamara]

[Size changed to not look like Idle Thoughts]

Why would you waste your power on a mason when you can talk to a seer, detective or witch?
Hey! No strategizing during the Night!

[Idle Thoughts]

It's only used once on a person if they're brought back..I.E. A player can only be brought back ONE TIME a game. If they're enchanted but not killed, I'm allowed enchant them again.

[Blaster Master]

Poor Drain Bead... dead in both games in rapid succession.

[Idle Thoughts]

My clock reads noon PST right now, actually?

[fluiddruid]

I'm glad people are unvoting Idle - I think lynching him would have been a bad course. But I'm not entirely sold yet.

I do agree that it doesn't amount to a heck of a lot of sense for Idle to waste his "talking to the dead" on a Mason necessarily - but I can see where he would want to keep his options open - after all, knowing all the Masons in the game is a powerful tool. As powerful as speaking to other power roles? No...

I really hope Idle isn't taking us for a ride.

[Rysto]

According to the final vote count, only 15 players voted. :dubous:

Where were the other four?

[Drain Bead]

Crap, and I didn't even have time to roleclaim.

Bah. Go town!

[Freudian Slit]

I see that MadtheSwine never voted at all. I think some people may have unvoted and then never revoted.

[Pleonast]

The next Day saw a continuation of the acrimony of the previous. The Village argued over the claims of a self-named Coroner. A case was made against the fevered Idle Thoughts, but eventually he persuaded enough others that he wasn't a killer. It seems like only by happen-stance that Drain Bead was led to the Hanging Tree. And with nary a peep, he went to his doom.

Drain Bead is dead.

Through diligent work, the Village found a strange emblem on One and Only Wanderers passport. It can mean only one thing: he was a member of a secret Cabal.

It is now Night. Dawn will come on Friday at noon (Pacific Time).


Final Votes

Drain Bead (5) <= ShadowFacts (663), Diomedes (664), Kat (713), nesta (736), Blaster Master (813)

DiggitCamara (4) <= Drain Bead (571), Zoggie (579), [Drain Bead (654)], [Zoggie (692)], fluiddruid (695), Drain Bead (758), Rysto (805), Zoggie (818)

Rysto (3) <= Idle Thoughts (634), MHaye (660), [Idle Thoughts (697)], DiggitCamara (768), [MHaye (774)], Hockey Monkey (799), MHaye (815)
Idle Thoughts (3) <= Rysto (637), HazelNutCoffee (678), [Rysto (687)], CatInASuit (691), Blaster Master (696), Hockey Monkey (714), Zoggie (733), sachertorte (754), Rysto (770), MHaye (774), Hal Briston (779), Pygmy Rugger (781), [Hal Briston (795)], [Hockey Monkey (799)], [Rysto (805)], [CatInASuit (808)], [Blaster Master (813)], [MHaye (815)], [Zoggie (818)]

ShadowFacts (0) <= Pygmy Rugger (628), [Pygmy Rugger (669)]
Hal Briston (0) <= Hockey Monkey (690), [Hockey Monkey (714)]
sachertorte (0) <= Drain Bead (654), Rysto (687), Idle Thoughts (697), [Drain Bead (758)], [Rysto (770)], [Idle Thoughts (804)]

[Drain Bead]

Wait. I thought Day ended at 3:00 PT, not ET.

Just in case it doesn't, can I roleclaim now?

[Drain Bead]

Well, this sucks. Bad time to be wrong about the time of the deadline. :-(

[CatInASuit]

Sorry Drain Bead - 2 games in 2 days.

End of Day was noon PST or whatever that is in your time zone.

[Freudian Slit]

Whoohoo! We got a Cabal member.

So let's belly up at the bar and celebrate.

[ShadowFacts]

Whoohoo! We got a Cabal member.

So let's belly up at the bar and celebrate.


Indeed, it is very nice to have our first real confirmed piece of information.

[dotchan]

*drops a large banner from the Peanut Gallery*

Shameless Advertising:

LOLCATS Mini Mafia (http://psychopathgame.proboards106.com/index.cgi?board=mini&action=display&thread=1191778346) needs 3 more players. Hunt mafia using cat macros! A test of imagination, wit, humor, and sanity.

[Kat]

To celebrate the momentous occasion...

Bartender! Give me one of those fru-fru drinks with the little umbrella!

[Boozahol Squid, P.I.]

::slides a drink down to Kat::

Tonight only! The Kill-the-Kabal: Two parts gin, two parts Grapefruit juice, three parts grenadine. Served chilled, garnished with a little witch hat.

[CatInASuit]

Tonight only! The Kill-the-Kabal: Two parts gin, two parts Grapefruit juice, three parts grenadine. Served chilled, garnished with a little witch hat.
Sounds good, I'll take three of them.

[HazelNutCoffee]

Er, I'll just have a rum-and-coke, if that's okay.

[DiggitCamara]

::slides a drink down to Kat::

Tonight only! The Kill-the-Kabal: Two parts gin, two parts Grapefruit juice, three parts grenadine. Served chilled, garnished with a little witch hat.
I'll drink to that!

[MadTheSwine]

Hi...I am back.Sorry for my absence.

[Hockey Monkey]

I'll be on vacation starting today through the 16th, but will be checking in as internet access allows.

[Hockey Monkey]

Hi all! I'm in Myrtle Beach! I had to pay $25 bucks for a 3 day internet pass because I couldn't stand to be away from you all. :D Sunday I'll be going down to Hilton Head for a training seminar and coming back on Tuesday. Hopefully I won't have to pay for access there too. :(

And I can't let this thread go to page two while we wait for dawn.

[Rysto]

You should have changed your name to Mafia Junkie instead, pima.

[ShadowFacts]

Hi all! I'm in Myrtle Beach! I had to pay $25 bucks for a 3 day internet pass because I couldn't stand to be away from you all. :D Sunday I'll be going down to Hilton Head for a training seminar and coming back on Tuesday. Hopefully I won't have to pay for access there too. :(

And I can't let this thread go to page two while we wait for dawn.

That deserves a toast! To Hockey Monkey and Mafia addiction! :D

[Hockey Monkey]

You should have changed your name to Mafia Junkie instead, pima.

I've already admitted as much on the other board. But I'm more addicted to hockey. Now if we could play Hockey Mafia...I'd think I'd died and gone to heaven. :D

[Kat]

You could always sign up to host a Hockey Mafia game.

*scoops up her drink*

Ah! Sustenance!

*takes a long drink*

Ah. Make sure there's another waiting for when I finish this one. :D

[Boozahol Squid, P.I.]

Sounds good, I'll take three of them.

By the way, I tried one of these tonight, although only a dash of grenadine instead of nearly half the drink (I think I'd go into diabetic shock if I had that much grenadine). While my roommate thinks I'm an absolute nut, it actually ain't bad.

:: distributes drinks to Cat and Hazelnut ::

[HazelNutCoffee]

I just re-read the last few pages of Day 2, and I think I need another drink. Several more drinks, actually.

[HazelNutCoffee]

You actually made it and drank it? :eek: Wow. I, er, respect you. From a safe distance. ;)

[Freudian Slit]

You guys are crazy. I'm sticking with a gin and tonic. We need protection against the malaria, you know.

[dotchan]

*shouts from Peanut Gallery*

LOLCATS Mini Mafia (http://psychopathgame.proboards106.com/index.cgi?board=mini&action=display&thread=1191778346) can haz more players, pleeeeeeeeeeeeese (http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb77/GreedySmurf/LoLCatz/DOESWANT.jpg)?

(I think we may be up to 11, pending confirmation from one player, so would another Doper like to go at each other with cat macros?)

[Freudian Slit]

Hi all! I'm in Myrtle Beach! I had to pay $25 bucks for a 3 day internet pass because I couldn't stand to be away from you all. :D Sunday I'll be going down to Hilton Head for a training seminar and coming back on Tuesday. Hopefully I won't have to pay for access there too. :(

And I can't let this thread go to page two while we wait for dawn.You loves us! You really loves us!

[Hockey Monkey]

Wells of course I do! I lurves you all!

[Rysto]

Except the scum, of course.

[Hockey Monkey]

Oh yeah, if your scum I hate you. :p (But only In Game! I still lurve all my Mafia Buds.)

Die Scum!

[Boozahol Squid, P.I.]

Oh yeah, if your scum I hate you. :p (But only In Game! I still lurve all my Mafia Buds.)

Die Scum!

Dio not scum! Dio town!

[CatInASuit]

::hands Dio a drink to stop him panicking::

Relax, only a few more hours to go.

[Boozahol Squid, P.I.]

::hands Dio a drink to stop him panicking::

Relax, only a few more hours to go.

::drinks up::

Oh, sorry mate. I think I misread "Die" as "Dio" there. ;)

[CatInASuit]

Why is this bar always so quiet just before dawn.

Don't tell me some of you have gone to sleep... Anyone for one last order?

[Freudian Slit]

Some of us *have* passed out, I'm sure.

But, hmmm. How about a...BLOODY MARY? *cackles*? Hm. Maybe I'm on my way to passing out.

[ShadowFacts]

Why is this bar always so quiet just before dawn.

Don't tell me some of you have gone to sleep... Anyone for one last order?


I'm quiet because I'm concentrating on watching you all carefully :D

(Hand that drink to my personal taster...)

[Rysto]

Some of us *have* passed out, I'm sure.
Hang on a minute, are they passed out or are they dead?

[HazelNutCoffee]

10 minutes left! :: tosses down a kamikaze shot ::

[HazelNutCoffee]

Am I the only one constantly refreshing this page?

[Hal Briston]

Not "constantly", but I peek back in every five minutes or so.

[CatInASuit]

F5
.
.
F5
.
.
F5

Nope, not the only one.

F5
.
.
F5
.
.
F5

[Rysto]

Yes.

I'm refreshing the forum index.

Maybe the scum got Pleonast?

[Freudian Slit]

Oh, Pleo, Pleo, where are you?

[Pleonast]

The Night was not as chill as the last and a few Villagers still hung about the pub. A handful of murders was not much to worry about, right? A piercing scream aborted by a wet splatter ended any final doubts. The entire Town rushed out to find Hal Briston disemboweled in the fountain, now running red. And a quick head count discovered one person missing: Rysto. Tromping back into the pub, he was benignly sleeping off the Night's drink. Or so it would seem. A lingering doubt and a quick poke soon revealed he was actually quite dead. No obvious signs of trauma, except for his bloody cocktail.

As Dawn came, one more horrifying event was found: Fretful Porpentine had clawed her way out the grave. The shuffling tracks into the forest, with a few bits of fur left behind, make the result obvious to all: not only was she a Wolf, but now she has been "resurrected" as a flesh-eating Zombie. This bodes ill!

And for a final bit of bad news, it seems amrussell's documentation is in order. There can be no doubt as to his loyalty to the Town.


Hal Briston and Rysto are dead. amrussel was Town. Fretful Porpentine was Wolf and is now a Zombie.

[Rysto]

Well, I guess that I get my life back now...

[HazelNutCoffee]

:eek: Holy crap! Dead bodies and Zombies.

[DiggitCamara]

Well, unless sachertorte is really lucky at guessing, we now know he can at least tell the alignments of dead people. Idle's revelation of his own role extension leaves just a small lingering doubt: could he be scum who knows stuff about dead people's alignments?

[CatInASuit]

Oh crap! Two more dead and a Zombie to boot! :eek:

Are they town or scum?

sachertorte want to give us a hint on our three dead unknowns if you think it would help?

[Boozahol Squid, P.I.]

Wow... so we lose one town, kill two scum and have one zombie lurching around. I don't know if we're doing well or not according to the strange caluculus that makes this game up but...

ZOMBIE WEREWOLVES!!!!!!!!!

Sorry, even if they're both scum roles, the combination is unspeakably awesome.

[Blaster Master]

Well, I, for one, am a bit confused. I understand the attack on Hal, because he was under the radar, maybe a power role of some sort, but from what I could tell, Rysto had a reasonable amount of suspicion. I wonder if he was taken out because maybe one scum faction thought he was a member of the other one?

I have a couple ideas, I'm going to do some quick back-reading and see if I can substantiate any of them...

[Boozahol Squid, P.I.]

Well, I, for one, am a bit confused. I understand the attack on Hal, because he was under the radar, maybe a power role of some sort, but from what I could tell, Rysto had a reasonable amount of suspicion. I wonder if he was taken out because maybe one scum faction thought he was a member of the other one?

I have a couple ideas, I'm going to do some quick back-reading and see if I can substantiate any of them...

Rysto was shooting enough scumtells off yesterday that I wouldn't be amazed if he was Vigged. Hopefully, he'll turn up scummy (or the Vig laid low last night) and we won't have to worry about losing two townies to his death.

[ShadowFacts]

Well, I, for one, am a bit confused. I understand the attack on Hal, because he was under the radar, maybe a power role of some sort, but from what I could tell, Rysto had a reasonable amount of suspicion. I wonder if he was taken out because maybe one scum faction thought he was a member of the other one?

I have a couple ideas, I'm going to do some quick back-reading and see if I can substantiate any of them...

There are sooo many possibilities, though. He could have been Town killed by wolves. He could have been Town or scum killed by the vigilante. The magician could have deflected an attack onto him. He could be a wolf who targeted amrussell the first night, but amrussell had the warlock protecting him. He could be a wolf who targeted the Vampire. Aaagh, the more I think about it, the more my head spins!

:confused: :confused: :confused:

Did I get them all?

[Boozahol Squid, P.I.]

There are sooo many possibilities, though. He could have been Town killed by wolves. He could have been Town or scum killed by the vigilante. The magician could have deflected an attack onto him. He could be a wolf who targeted amrussell the first night, but amrussell had the warlock protecting him. He could be a wolf who targeted the Vampire. Aaagh, the more I think about it, the more my head spins!

:confused: :confused: :confused:

Did I get them all?


Cor, I forgot about some of those. This game limits information, and the information we get is bloody useless for the first day or two we get it, anyways.

[Blaster Master]

Rysto was shooting enough scumtells off yesterday that I wouldn't be amazed if he was Vigged. Hopefully, he'll turn up scummy (or the Vig laid low last night) and we won't have to worry about losing two townies to his death.

I considered a Vig option, but then I have to wonder... the only block ability out there is the Witches' power (Witch Doctor still shows up as a death initially AFAICT), which means if Rysto WAS vigged, then one of the two scum factions probably knows the identity of one of the Witches, since I can't imagine them protecting anyone else except for maybe Idle Thoughts.

[sachertorte]

I've been livid for the past two days! Drain Bead! Seriously, Drain Bead? I haven't gone back to look through the reasoning for the votes but come on, a last minute lynch with no time for a defense.
Bad Town, bad town.
If you haven't guessed by now, Drain Bead is Town Aligned.

[HazelNutCoffee]

I've been livid for the past two days! Drain Bead! Seriously, Drain Bead? I haven't gone back to look through the reasoning for the votes but come on, a last minute lynch with no time for a defense.
Bad Town, bad town.
If you haven't guessed by now, Drain Bead is Town Aligned.
Are you going to reveal the Side of Hal and Rysto? I am not asking you do, merely wondering if you will. (Or do you not know them yet? I thought the Coroner knew right away, but I might be remembering the rules wrong.)

[Hal Briston]

<urk!>

[Blaster Master]

Okay, we now have some solid information on some scum. With this knowledge, I thought maybe I could see a correlation between my list of suspicions and the interactions with scum. And I cam across a whopper of a post (471 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=9038471&postcount=471)). I'm going to have to respond to this post out of order, because otherwise my suspicion doesn't make sense.

This makes sense to me. It's a bad precedent to establish anyway; it's essentially saying "if I wave my hands, what I said doesn't count". Granted this is more plausible in the early game but it's a solid enough tell for my vote. I've seen this tied to scum more often than not.

Vote One and Only Wanderers

This is in response to Fretful Porpentine, our fuzzy zombie. This is essentially an OMGUS vote by Fretful, and then fluiddruid comes along and agrees? Is this possible railroading? Maybe, maybe not... let's see what the first part of the post was...

Perhaps, but, more often than not I think we're removing people who are just naturally not creating huge amounts of volume. Can scum hide here? Possibly, but there are a lot of other reasons why someone would be lower in post count. It's just not reliable at all and frankly I think it creates an incentive for people to post more to save themselves (scum or not) which tends to obfuscate the entire discussion.

Agreed though on
unvote Sachertorte
for a verifiable role claim. But, I frankly think amrussell is getting pounced on. There are a lot of votes flying for him at this point and I'm not convinced he's our best man for the lynch. I don't really see scum coming out with so many proposed strategies right away (making him/herself vulnerable).

This is in response to sachetorte taking her to task for saying she didn't have anything to say (408 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=9036585&postcount=408)). Wait, so first you say you don't have anything to say (IOW, you can't contribute anything to the discussion) and then you say it makes people want to post more? Since when is that a bad thing (except maybe in Roosh's case)? The idea behind lynching lurkers, while fundamentally flawed for other reasons, is that they AREN'T creating enough content, more content equals more information, more information equals town advantage. You should know this.

Interestingly enough, in the same post 408, you say you have nothing to say, but yet you say that you think most of the analysis is circle jerking. ...well, that sure as hell sounds like something to say. Why didn't you step forward and say that? Why didn't you make an effort to prove the analyses wrong? Why didn't you try to point us in the right direction?

And to top it all off--back to the post I quoted-- you offer a vague "I don't think amrussell is scum" comment with no addition to the analysis. Why do you think he's getting pounced on? It's obvious to us NOW that he's town, but how would you have known that then? This is a very common scum tactic.


Then you decide to jump on the Diggit wagon which, while I felt he was somewhat suspicious, I thought was ultimately poorly reasoned. Diomedes correctly pointed out that even if he were not one of those specific roles mentioned there's still plenty of others.

But you're adding fuel to the fire. In post 585 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=9047869&postcount=585) you say:

Also, it could make sense that someone would be most familiar with information about their own side, to a point - we all want to see where we personally fit in with our team.

Are you actually suggesting that people who don't know a specific rule about a specific role or set of roles can't even be aligned with them? Maybe people who have a better understanding of the undead or the wolves is more likely to be one of them? Did it not occur to you that MAYBE he just maybe misunderstood the rules, didn't realize he misunderstood the rules, so he didn't bother to clarify? So, again, you're casting and OMGUS FOS here.

And then, while the whole rest of the town is completely boggled by sachetorte's behavior, you are strangely calm about it (602 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=9048714&postcount=602)) and you end up voting for Diggit based on odds derived from a false dichotomy?


These are pretty straightforward, scum motivated behaviors, and thus I think you're scum. I do not think you're cabal, obviously, because you helped Fretful Porpentine railroad OAOW. So you either inadvertantly helped her (more likely, I think) and you're an undead, or you're a wolf and you teamed up with her.

I will save my vote for now, because I have a few other people I want to read back over, particularly ShadowFacts, DiggitCamara, Hazel, Hockey Monkey, nesta, and Pygmy Rugger. I probably won't get to them all Today, but since my suspicions are pretty restarting from scratch, I'll wait to see if anyone comes up more suspicious.

[sachertorte]

I know them, and will reveal them if we think that is best. I'm following caution at this early part of the Day since once the info is out there, I can't take it back. So if everyone wants the info now, I'll spill it. Right now, I don't see a compelling reason to reveal the Sides of Hal and Rysto (beyond the fact that you are all dying to know, which might be sufficient reason itself), but I think knowing Drain Bead's Side is important for discussion right now.
I'll reveal Side information (as well as Roles of amrussell and Fretful Porpentine) by the end of the day, even if it's a Wednesday 2:55PM drive-by posting. At least that's my plan for now. If there is compelling reason to alter this plan I will do so.

[Freudian Slit]

Wow. I actually added "Ginger Snaps" and "28 Days Later" to my Netflix queue earlier this year. Appropriate! Oooh--can we chain the zombie up and take pictures with her, like in "Land of the Dead"?

I think I'm a lot more willing to trust sachertorte now. I mean, I've gotten more and more inclined to. I'm also feeling less inclined positively towards Idle Thoughts for being so tough on sachertorte who seems to have our best interests at heart.

[fluiddruid]

Wait, so first you say you don't have anything to say (IOW, you can't contribute anything to the discussion) and then you say it makes people want to post more? Since when is that a bad thing (except maybe in Roosh's case)? The idea behind lynching lurkers, while fundamentally flawed for other reasons, is that they AREN'T creating enough content, more content equals more information, more information equals town advantage. You should know this.Yes, I do know it - heck, I posted it myself - but my point is, and was, that people shouldn't be hounded to post 50 times a day! The cost to Town in trying to track what people have said is already staggering, and we don't need to tell people to post fluff. We want people to come in, discuss who to vote for, and some strategy... but we don't need to get bogged down in endless strategy discussions. I really don't think they benefit Town.

Yes, in principle, ideally more posting means more information. But we're all real people who need to process that information and actively punishing people who are medium to low (not lurking, as I specified) is self-defeating. You don't need to be every other post to be a valid participant and, from an outside-of-the-game perspective, most players can't keep up the furious pace of our top posters. This does not make them scum.

Interestingly enough, in the same post 408, you say you have nothing to say, but yet you say that you think most of the analysis is circle jerking. ...well, that sure as hell sounds like something to say. Why didn't you step forward and say that? Why didn't you make an effort to prove the analyses wrong? Why didn't you try to point us in the right direction?By coming in to a circle-jerk discussion and attempting to give a point-by-point rebuttal, it's really only continuing the same discussion, don't you think?

Look what happened Yesterday. We went on and on and on ad nauseum about Idle Thoughts and his roleclaim past the point of all reason, then we ended up making a last minute lynch decision. Was it a good decision? You seem to think so, you voted for Drain Bead. But I'm not convinced just yet and we still failed to really discuss and give time for a vote recipient to respond. Granted, Drain Bead misunderstood the timeframes but no roleclaim was even attempted. That's a BIG problem. Surely you see that?

And to top it all off--back to the post I quoted-- you offer a vague "I don't think amrussell is scum" comment with no addition to the analysis. Why do you think he's getting pounced on? It's obvious to us NOW that he's town, but how would you have known that then? This is a very common scum tactic.What's the tactic? It was a vibe, I was trying to catch up on the thread in a short amount of time. When I had more time (in Day Two, and hopefully ongoing) I posted more as to my reasoning.

Then you decide to jump on the Diggit wagon which, while I felt he was somewhat suspicious, I thought was ultimately poorly reasoned. Diomedes correctly pointed out that even if he were not one of those specific roles mentioned there's still plenty of others.Yes. A point I considered and in fact responded to (as with many of your points above).

To turn the table around, do you think that Drain Bead was a better reasoned vote? Why?

I voted Diggit primarily based on odds. Was it a sure thing? Of course not. But I'd rather go, based on the information we had at the time (which is to say, not much) with someone who essentially can't be, what, half the town roles, rather than someone who could be all of them. That's not poor reasoning. That's statistics.

Are you actually suggesting that people who don't know a specific rule about a specific role or set of roles can't even be aligned with them? Maybe people who have a better understanding of the undead or the wolves is more likely to be one of them? Did it not occur to you that MAYBE he just maybe misunderstood the rules, didn't realize he misunderstood the rules, so he didn't bother to clarify? So, again, you're casting and OMGUS FOS here.I didn't say 'can't'. But I contended then, as I contend now, that someone pays much more attention to their own role than the others. That was my point. Do you honestly debate this? Who didn't go down the list and read their own role description first? Who isn't most familiar with their own description (and powers)? Don't you think it's more likely to misunderstand a role with which you are less familiar?

In both this instance, and in the prior instance with Diggit, I am talking about using the odds in our favor. This is controversial?

[fluiddruid]

I know them, and will reveal them if we think that is best. I'm following caution at this early part of the Day since once the info is out there, I can't take it back. So if everyone wants the info now, I'll spill it. Right now, I don't see a compelling reason to reveal the Sides of Hal and Rysto (beyond the fact that you are all dying to know, which might be sufficient reason itself), but I think knowing Drain Bead's Side is important for discussion right now.
I'll reveal Side information (as well as Roles of amrussell and Fretful Porpentine) by the end of the day, even if it's a Wednesday 2:55PM drive-by posting. At least that's my plan for now. If there is compelling reason to alter this plan I will do so.This information giving is a new mechanic so I'm a bit torn, but, if you're going to reveal something at the end of the Day, why not now? Doesn't it benefit Town more to be able to know, and analyze the information, and use it Today rather than spilling it Tonight just before night actions (mostly scum)?

I don't know how much it changes for the lynch. So perhaps you're right. We should round up a list of potential suspects and then decide.

I don't know how much I am dying to know about Hal. Rysto perhaps but Hal never pinged me as anything but Town. Granted this may be due to his relative low post count. Though, it may tell us something about Shadowfacts who pounced pretty quickly on Hal with a FOS.

I'm going to go back through Rysto's posts though since the notion that he's scummy didn't really come up Yesterday and I'd like to see what people are pointing at. As well as a few others' who have stayed off the radar for the most part.

[Idle Thoughts]

Well, unless sachertorte is really lucky at guessing, we now know he can at least tell the alignments of dead people. Idle's revelation of his own role extension leaves just a small lingering doubt: could he be scum who knows stuff about dead people's alignments?

It would only require one lucky guess. I think I'll wait to see more, thanks, before giving a bit more trust. :p

Well, I, for one, am a bit confused. I understand the attack on Hal, because he was under the radar, maybe a power role of some sort, but from what I could tell, Rysto had a reasonable amount of suspicion. I wonder if he was taken out because maybe one scum faction thought he was a member of the other one?

I have a couple ideas, I'm going to do some quick back-reading and see if I can substantiate any of them...

Being someone who was suspicious of Rysto himself, that's the only thing I can think of.

Rysto was shooting enough scumtells off yesterday that I wouldn't be amazed if he was Vigged. Hopefully, he'll turn up scummy (or the Vig laid low last night) and we won't have to worry about losing two townies to his death.

There were only two deaths, though. You'd think if a Vig was in this game there would be three? Unless someone was protected by the Witches and a kill failed or the Vig (if there is one) didn't choose to kill. At least that's how I see it.

Added: Forgot all about the possible Warlock or Magician.

I know them, and will reveal them if we think that is best.

:dubious:

So NOTHING this time? Not even a Town or Wolf?

You are making it VERY, very hard to trust you, you realize that? Again, it's almost like you don't KNOW the roles, and don't want to wind up guessing wrong so that you're revealed to be a liar.

Wow. I actually added "Ginger Snaps" and "28 Days Later" to my Netflix queue earlier this year. Appropriate! Oooh--can we chain the zombie up and take pictures with her, like in "Land of the Dead"?

I think I'm a lot more willing to trust sachertorte now. I mean, I've gotten more and more inclined to. I'm also feeling less inclined positively towards Idle Thoughts for being so tough on sachertorte who seems to have our best interests at heart.

I don't see how at all. I still don't. I still don't see any reason to keep the info secret.


And with that, I'm going to

Vote Zoggie

for now.

For a few reasons.

1. For the reasons I voted for her on Day One.
2. For being the first to vote for me after I roleclaimed- You think it'd be worth lynchng the/a possible Witchdoctor? I don't care who you are or what you think. Even if someone is false claiming it, it's TOO important of a role, I feel, to lynch unless you're ABSOLUTELY SURE. Especailly since I can be so easily verified by others by talking to a dead Witch or a dead Freemason. Even when revealing those extra powers, you seem to still think it's best not to trust me and keep suspicion on me. If I'm lying, I WILL BE CAUGHT in time. But given enough time I can ALSO PROVE I'm Town and the/a Witchdoctor, so it's foolish to just scream for my head.
3. Your slow work, especially in that last quote, of trying to cast doubt on me still. I don't know what I can say that will make you think otherwise and I'm starting to think there isn't anything. The Scum KNOW they probably won't be able to kill me off at Night without trading one of their own and that EVEN AFTER THAT I may be protected so I think it's in scum's best interest to try to kill me off in the Day. And what better way to set that up then still express suspicion over me and set the stage for a possible future lynch if it goes that way? Everyone else I saw unvote me and go "well, I don't want to take that chance." You and sach for some reason, are the only two who were still trying to convince Town that I was scum or shady. I even posted my PM. You think I can create a fake one that fast? I didn't even KNOW we could post PMs until I was told Pleo gave his all right on it and I think it shows in those three posts in succession yesterDay. Note the times. I could not fashion a PM up that quick. It was pure copy and paste. So strong suspicion on YOU (again, since I already found you suspicious enough to vote for on Day One) for continuing to try to make it look like I'm suspicious.

[Freudian Slit]

Your reasons for voting for me on Day One were pretty ridiculous. For asking stupid questions and playing dumb? Considering I've literally never played before, and this is my first time out in a relatively complicated game, I'm sorry I'm not as on the ball as you.

I don't think I noticed that you'd role claimed until afterwards. I did back off eventually, but your defensiveness worries me. And I don't see why you are casting such aspersions on sachertorte when clearly he's gotten three roles right.

For that reason, vote Idle Thoughts

[Kat]

I've just read through the Day's post really quickly and have only one thing to say so far:

Sides, Zoggie. He's gotten Sides right. Pleonast hasn't revealed any Roles yet.

[DiggitCamara]

This information giving is a new mechanic so I'm a bit torn, but, if you're going to reveal something at the end of the Day, why not now? Doesn't it benefit Town more to be able to know, and analyze the information, and use it Today rather than spilling it Tonight just before night actions (mostly scum)?
(snip)

After yesterDay, I can understand some of the rationale behind it (maybe someone will spill information they couldn't have and thus out themselves), and in and of itself it might be wise to use it so anyone who's successfully protected by the WitchDoctor won't come back with his/her role exposed for all to see, but the main problem I see is that one of these Nights, if the Coroner's offed, we'll all sit high and dry.

Just saying, is all.

[Boozahol Squid, P.I.]

I know them, and will reveal them if we think that is best. I'm following caution at this early part of the Day since once the info is out there, I can't take it back. So if everyone wants the info now, I'll spill it. Right now, I don't see a compelling reason to reveal the Sides of Hal and Rysto (beyond the fact that you are all dying to know, which might be sufficient reason itself), but I think knowing Drain Bead's Side is important for discussion right now.
I'll reveal Side information (as well as Roles of amrussell and Fretful Porpentine) by the end of the day, even if it's a Wednesday 2:55PM drive-by posting. At least that's my plan for now. If there is compelling reason to alter this plan I will do so.

Your plan sits right with me. Actually, I think you should reveal the Role of either amrussel (if he's not a mason like he said) or Fret (if Fret's not a vanilla wolf), and be done with it. The delay of learning the Roles, while frustrating perhaps for the rest of us, probably won't help the town at all (the various town power roles can figure out whom to investigate based on Alignment, and the Vig can kill based on it as well), but the delay in revealing Roles can only hurt the scum, as far as I can see. It's the scum who will be trying to pinpoint specific power roles: information they receive will help narrow down their searches.
If you can succesfully predict an unrevealed Role, we should be content in your confirmation, and let you just continue feeding us the Alignment information.

[DiggitCamara]

Your plan sits right with me. Actually, I think you should reveal the Role of either amrussel (if he's not a mason like he said) or Fret (if Fret's not a vanilla wolf), and be done with it. The delay of learning the Roles, while frustrating perhaps for the rest of us, probably won't help the town at all (the various town power roles can figure out whom to investigate based on Alignment, and the Vig can kill based on it as well), but the delay in revealing Roles can only hurt the scum, as far as I can see. It's the scum who will be trying to pinpoint specific power roles: information they receive will help narrow down their searches.
If you can succesfully predict an unrevealed Role, we should be content in your confirmation, and let you just continue feeding us the Alignment information.
You're right, actually, now that I think about it (sorry for flip-flopping).

There can't be too much of an overlap of Roles, after all. And with four people dead right now, three of which haven't even a known Alignment, much less a Role, any false roleclaim means that he/she is in danger of being exposed.

Carry on!

[ShadowFacts]

Yes, I do know it - heck, I posted it myself - but my point is, and was, that people shouldn't be hounded to post 50 times a day!
Strawman.

The cost to Town in trying to track what people have said is already staggering, and we don't need to tell people to post fluff.
Strawman.

We want people to come in, discuss who to vote for, and some strategy... but we don't need to get bogged down in endless strategy discussions.
Asking people to minimally participate (which is all I've ever advocated) will not result in endless strategy discussions. One has nothiong to do with the other.

Neither I nor anyone else in this game has said anything remotely close to what you "rebut" here. Strawman arguments like this would be incinerated in Great Debates, and in this game they make you look scummy.

(all above bolding is mine)

[ShadowFacts]

I've been livid for the past two days! Drain Bead! Seriously, Drain Bead? I haven't gone back to look through the reasoning for the votes but come on, a last minute lynch with no time for a defense.
Bad Town, bad town.
If you haven't guessed by now, Drain Bead is Town Aligned.

Hindsight's 20/20. (Or, in this case since you are still not quite confirmed, 20/40 :D ). It's the "curse of the roleclaim" in this game. Here's what I said Day One:

Speaking of voting, we're now about one day away from the deadline, and I'd like to begin a discussion about role claims. In previous games that I've read on the Dope, there usually was a policy of believing all roles claims, at least temporarily, to avoid lynching a power role by accident. Often this would happen at the last minute, leading to flurries of activity at the deadline trying to come up with a second candidate.

Given that this game is different and everyone has a power role, presumably everyone is giong to role claim (including scum, of course). How are we going to handle that? It seems to me that the "believe all role claims" method is simply not going to work in this game, because we're just going to get a cascading series of "Wait, I'm the [insert role here], don't lynch me!" until all roles are revealed.

I have no idea what to do about this. Later in the game, of course, we may have more data to work with to evaluate claims, but at the moment we have pretty much nada.

Which is pretty much exactly what is happening. We get close to a target, they claim. Since we of course want to play it safe and not lose a powerful Town role, we relent, and on to the next, who claims, ad nauseum, until time runs out. In this case Drain Bead got caught at the end. If she hadn't gotten the time mixed up, she would've claimed and then we would have been on to the next person. (If she is Town, I feel particularly bad about that, since I cast the first vote for her, way back before the whole Idle brouhaha even started).

Unless we can decide on a better way to do it, it's going to happen at the end of this Day as well. It's a major problem. (Of course, if we try to strategize a way around this problem, we'll probably be accused of "irrelevant" or "endless" discussion :dubious: )

[Idle Thoughts]

And I don't see why you are casting such aspersions on sachertorte when clearly he's gotten three roles right.

Two were easy and one could have been luck. Sorry if I happen to find him suspicious for not revealing roles at first.

...so I think it's in scum's best interest to try to kill me off in the Day. And what better way to set that up then still express suspicion over me and set the stage for a possible future lynch if it goes that way?

For that reason, vote Idle Thoughts

Thank you for proving my point.

[CatInASuit]

sachertorte,

Having read Pleonast's role descriptions, it looks as though the scum only have night actions. I think you can release the info on amrussell and Fretful to the benefit of the town, although I don't think any of the town Day Actions will be affected by it.

Then your role gets more or less confirmed at dusk.

[CatInASuit]

Hal Briston's Posts

#32, #57, #70, #104, #135, #144, #486, #885, #902 - Fluff

#148 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=9023990&postcount=148) - Fluff based on Daughter's cheerleading outfit
#352 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=9035040&postcount=352) - Agrees with Pygmy about OAOW and amrussell
#377 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=9035628&postcount=377) - Votes amrussell over suggestion we should lynch the vicar if they roleclaim
#387 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=9035951&postcount=387) - Comment on FretFul Porpentine
#455 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=9038049&postcount=455) - unvotes amrussell, votes OAOW
#479 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=9038574&postcount=479) - Comment on the third vote is a scum tell.
#506 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=9038721&postcount=506) - Comment on keeping his vote on the Vigilante
#702 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=9057734&postcount=702) - Question to Pleonast about the Omega Wolf and masons.
#779 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=9060058&postcount=779) - Notes same points as Zoggie and Blaster Master, considers sachertorte legit, follows his lead and votes Idle Thoughts
#795 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=9060373&postcount=795) - Unvotes Idle Thoughts after roleclaim

You wil have to bear with me on Rysto - it could take a while - he was prolific.

[Boozahol Squid, P.I.]

sachertorte,

Having read Pleonast's role descriptions, it looks as though the scum only have night actions. I think you can release the info on amrussell and Fretful to the benefit of the town, although I don't think any of the town Day Actions will be affected by it.

Then your role gets more or less confirmed at dusk.

I wouldn't assume anything about what the scum can do based on the rules. We've already raised the spectre of additional powers in the form of recruitment.

[CatInASuit]

I wouldn't assume anything about what the scum can do based on the rules. We've already raised the spectre of additional powers in the form of recruitment.
Good point. There is nothing in the rules to say that they don't have a Day power.

Also, just a chilling thought on recruitment. If the Wolves and Undead get a recruitment through a Night Kill, is there any reason the Cabal won't have a chance to recruit someone as well through their own nefarious means?

[Kat]

If the scum roles have any Day powers, then Pleonast beats me to ribbons in the Bastard ModTM contest.

[sachertorte]

Just some quick points on Idle Thoughts. I don't want to get too deep into this, because I'd rather the rest of the players evaluate your claim from their viewpoint.

I find it silly that you keep harping on me when I have yet to do anything wrong. I've been correct in identifying all the information Pleonast has provided thus far, before he stated it publicly. I can't do more than that. Even if I had given out Role information yesterday, you can't confirm it until Tomorrow.
I have demonstrated a non-zero amount of my role's power.
Idle Thoughts, until you can "confirm" yourself, I'd appreciate you stop hounding me. Yesterday, it was somewhat understandable. Today, not so much.

I also take issue with Idle Thoughts's assertion that he is one of the most powerful roles in the game. First, I think you are overstating your role quite a bit. In your original power claim you state:
I can bring back one person to life a Night. This power can only be used once on a person, however if it doesn't bring them back they may be enchanted again. It is only when a person is brought back (and it works) that I can't do it again.
Which confused the crap out of me, because I interpreted this as an additional power, but on re-read it seems that this is a sloppy re-iteration of the documented Witchdoctor power.
Second, stating so sounds like a desperate attempt to sway the town not to kill you (which worked).

Finally, since Idle Thoughts has taken the stance of confronting me on every decision I make, I'll just say, that I'm not believing a word of Idle Thoughts until he confirms his role.
As he says:
IT'S VERY EASY FOR ME TO BE CONFIRMED.
Then do it.

Oh wait. You can't.
While its nice to say that you can be confirmed, you haven't done anything towards actually doing so. How long should the town wait for Idle Thoughts? I claimed on Day One and we didn't get any hint of confirmation for me until Day Three. How do we propose confirmation of Idle Thoughts?
There is also the annoying fact that the power used to confirm Idle Thoughts is NOT listed in the public rule set. We have no way of knowing that talking to the dead is a pro-town power. My inclination is that it would be since scum talking to the dead seems pointless, but we don't know for sure.

[Santo Rugger]

<snip>
While its nice to say that you can be confirmed, you haven't done anything towards actually doing so. How long should the town wait for Idle Thoughts? I claimed on Day One and we didn't get any hint of confirmation for me until Day Three. How do we propose confirmation of Idle Thoughts?
There is also the annoying fact that the power used to confirm Idle Thoughts is NOT listed in the public rule set. We have no way of knowing that talking to the dead is a pro-town power. My inclination is that it would be since scum talking to the dead seems pointless, but we don't know for sure.

While I hate to be the "me too" guy, this sums up some of the thoughts I've been having since Idle claimed.

[fluiddruid]

Asking people to minimally participate (which is all I've ever advocated) will not result in endless strategy discussions. One has nothiong to do with the other.I was addressing Idle Thoughts. I wasn't taking a firm stance against what you said, ShadowFacts, I was cautioning -- because I saw what happened last game. The game became incredibly hostile at one point regarding post amounts and I don't want to see that happen again.

If we're going to make a rule that referencing other games is a strawman argument, then let's say it. Don't try to call it a strawman argument for not being a direct rebuttal of what someone said in this game otherwise, as it's basically misleading.

[fluiddruid]

2. For being the first to vote for me after I roleclaimed- You think it'd be worth lynchng the/a possible Witchdoctor? I don't care who you are or what you think. Even if someone is false claiming it, it's TOO important of a role, I feel, to lynch unless you're ABSOLUTELY SURE. I think we need to start addressing the "never lynch important roleclaims" rule that has apparently cropped up. This game, everyone is going to role claim. Hell, there's even a reason for Town to falsely roleclaim, given how people have responded so far. Drain Bead failed to roleclaim and died. You and Sach did roleclaim and lived (with mimimal confirmation of Sach and zero confirmation of you).

If we're going to start lynching anyone who votes for a roleclaimant then we're going to get in trouble. I agree with Sach - we need to find a way to verify roleclaims promptly. You said you could be verified easily - so please, fill us in.

3. Your slow work, especially in that last quote, of trying to cast doubt on me still. I don't know what I can say that will make you think otherwise and I'm starting to think there isn't anything.Zoggie is a newbie. I think overall I'm seeing a real expectation for absolute precision which is not realistic. Making mistakes or not having rock-solid lynch reasoning on Day One is a non-tell as far as I'm concerned. (Yes, we should still address and vigorously draw out poor reasoning, especially as the days go on, but we had precious little to go on early in Day One.) Zoggie's reasons for voting for you now are far more clear, and I can't say I wholly disagree.

I'm not in favor of lynching you, Idle Thoughts, just to be clear. But you must realize that a claim like this, that you are now voting for people for even having the nerve of voting for such an important role as yours, and that you have secret powers, really starts to make me (and, I'm sure, others) wonder. And that's why I'd like to get you confirmed as soon as possible.

[CatInASuit]

Rysto's posts.

And edited because there are quite a few.

Fluff - #6, #24, #125

#36, Comment on Vig role.
#134 - Joke re. optimal stragey for Vicar
#158 - Random.org vote for amrussell
#165 - Comment that we should not do a mass role claim
#190 - Comment that Hockey Monkey can't know anything special + strategy thoughs
#193 - Comment that side is more important than role and no-lynch is not a good option
#195 - Comment on number of scum and no-lynch
#197 = comment on majority lynch
#199, #200 - Comment on alignment and role discovery

Comments on vampires + detective + town strategy for dealing with them
#203, #205, #208, #210
Thinks there are 2 vampires + 2 detectives. Suggests wolf + town no-kill until Seer discovers Vampire.

#222 - Quotes Ploenast's Cabal piece.
#227 - Comment on witchdoctor role and vampire
#238, #239 - Comment on false Cop Claim by scum through breadcrumbing
#265 - unvotes amrussell, votes sachertorte over his vote for MHaye
#276 - Comment on third vote is a scum tell.Provides reasoning for vote.
#280 - Comment on voting reasons
#294 - unvotes sachertorte, not willing to lynch based on sachertoret having poor reasoning.
#307, #312 - Comments on vicar
#347 - Comment on scotsman role
#365 - Comment on roleclaims
#371 - Votes Idle Thoughts over No lynch discussion
#381 - Commenton making a list
#415 - Comment on the undead
#419 - Comment on witch counter claim

No Lynch Posts
#487 - Comments that Vig is verifiable, Unvotes Idle Thoughts, vote no lynch.
#490 - Comments that no more time to start new bandwagon and more comments on Vig.
#493, #504 - Comment on Vig + Vampire
#496 - Comment on people voting
#508 - Comment on investigators not investigating OAOW
#510 - Comment on final vote score.

#524 - Night Fluff
#561 - Comments on validating sachertorte's claim, night deaths and town strategy
#593 - Comment on town not claiming to be other town.
#600 - Comment on looking at previous posts and verifying the Vig.
#604 - Comment he thinks there is only one Vig in the game.
#606 - Comment on town strategy
#608 - He would be stupid to be a cabalist to postpone OAOW's lynch
#625, #626, #627 - Comment on vigging sachertorte if he is wrong about OAOW
#637 - Votes Idle Thoughts due tio taking quotes out of context.
#641 - Clarification of his thinking concerning Vigilantes.
#650 - Comment on the Vig and sachertorte
#670, #671 - Comment on Vig killnig scum.
#675, #686 - Comment on sach revealing sides/roles
#687 - Unvote Idle Thoughts, votes sachertorte to pressure to release info.
#705 - Comments on Idle Thoughts commenting on sachertorte
#717 - Provides more reasoning for voting sachertorte
#770 - unvotes sachertorte, votes Idle Thoughts after sachertorte's infodump
#778 - Comment on false role claim strategy
#787 - Comment on Idle Thoughts role claim and bandwagon
#794 - Comment on Idle Thoughts bandwagon
#805 - unvotes Idle Thoughts, votes DiggitCamara over misquoting
#809 - Comment on possiblity of Warlock.
#820 - Comment on scum attacking Idle Thoughts over night.
#824 - Comment on Idle Thoughts role's abilities
#828 - fluff
#839 - Comment on Idle Thoughts validating claim

And I think that is it. You want links, go do it yourself.

[HazelNutCoffee]

The heating's not working and my feet are cold. I can't think when my feet are cold. Bear with me here; I'm trying to think out loud.

Here's the thing about not lynching roleclaims: the clusterfuck that happened yesterday. I don't know about you guys, but the whole sachertorte debate made it rather difficult for me to get a read on anyone else (I think Hockey Monkey also made this point). Because I felt that the whole thing was serving as somewhat of a smokescreen for scum, I decided to vote Idle Thoughts because his was the loudest voice in the discussion. I think a lot of others felt the same way, because eventually he garnered enough votes to pressure him into a roleclaim. There was very little time left in the Day when he did this, so now everyone gets thrown into confusion. The Witchdoctor is an important enough role that it isn't worth lynching on a suspiscion (although IMO the Coroner is as well) but voting for no one makes you look scummy, and voting for a no lynch leaves us with nothing to go on for the next Day. Somehow, in this general chaos, the votes get piled on Drain Bead, and she is lynched before she has the chance to make a role claim. For all we know, she could have been a Witch.

But what if she had role-claimed? What then? Would our votes get all tossed up into the air again and end up landing on the next random vaguely suspiscious looking person, only to spark another roleclaim?

The thing is in this game (and fluid has made this point as well) there are no vanilla townies that we can lynch while we figure out the validity of a roleclaim. The votes that a roleclaim disperses will inevitably land on yet another person who will be forced to respond with a roleclaim of their own (whether they actually have a town role or they are scum), which has everyone running around in circles while the Day ticks towards the end.

I guess my point is that automatically unvoting someone on the chopping block because of a roleclaim is not really a good strategy in this game. I'm not saying that we should disbelieve all roleclaims - I'm saying that "Well, you never know, so you might as well unvote me until you know for sure" is not a valid argument in this game, no matter what your role is. When a roleclaim is made, we should read the case being made and then decide to unvote or not, instead of unvoting by reflex simply to gain more time. Which makes early voting so much more important in this game, I think, as well.

[Boozahol Squid, P.I.]

The Witchdoctor is an important enough role that it isn't worth lynching on a suspiscion (although IMO the Coroner is as well) but voting for no one makes you look scummy, and voting for a no lynch leaves us with nothing to go on for the next Day. Somehow, in this general chaos, the votes get piled on Drain Bead, and she is lynched before she has the chance to make a role claim. For all we know, she could have been a Witch.

I don't know about the Coroner being such an important Role to the town so much as it is a verifiable Town claim. We're still so far away from a Lynch or Lose situation that if someone claims Seer or Witch or Coroner or Mason (the four roles which seem most obviously verifiable to me), we can wait to see if their information pans out. A Role Claim which we can't verify based on subsequent information seems to be something we should avoid unvoting on, if the role claim is the only reason for unvoting them.


I guess my point is that automatically unvoting someone on the chopping block because of a roleclaim is not really a good strategy in this game. I'm not saying that we should disbelieve all roleclaims - I'm saying that "Well, you never know, so you might as well unvote me until you know for sure" is not a valid argument in this game, no matter what your role is. When a roleclaim is made, we should read the case being made and then decide to unvote or not, instead of unvoting by reflex simply to gain more time. Which makes early voting so much more important in this game, I think, as well.

You're absolutely right. Unfortunately, at this early point of the game, it's much harder to build a reasonable case against someone, especially with the slow development of information. I'm trying to figure out a particularly good candidate for voting, and the two scummiest vibes I'm getting off people are Zoggie and fluiddruid. (I would add Idle to that list, but I'm allowing his claim for the moment, pending his method of verification.)

Zoggie , in large part because of her actions from yesterday, and her OMGUS vote on Idle today. However, like fluid noted, this can just be attributed to this being her first game. I spat scumtells like crazy in the Firefly game (to the point where people barely believed the mods when I ended up getting zapped over there).

fluid , on the other hand, presented much the same argument you did, Hazel . On the other hand, fluid then tried to build up a case against Idle, and refused to back it up with a vote. fluid's arguments for suppressing large amounts of contributions could very well be an attempt to lay cover for other Scum who are on the lurkier end of things. Also, minimizing strategy discussion and vote analysis now looks like a great way to limit the Town's information gathering later on.

So, in the spirit of voting early and voting often, I'll toss out a

Vote: fluid druid




Blue vote, red unvote; blue vote, red unvote; blue vote, red unvote

[Boozahol Squid, P.I.]

There were only two deaths, though. You'd think if a Vig was in this game there would be three? Unless someone was protected by the Witches and a kill failed or the Vig (if there is one) didn't choose to kill. At least that's how I see it.

Added: Forgot all about the possible Warlock or Magician.


Just saw this. As another possibility, there could have been a roleblock on the wolves or the Vampire. It feels like the more we know in this game, the less we seem to know.

[Idle Thoughts]

Just some quick points on Idle Thoughts. I don't want to get too deep into this, because I'd rather the rest of the players evaluate your claim from their viewpoint.

I find it silly that you keep harping on me when I have yet to do anything wrong.

You mean besides on revealing the roles of ANY dead players so far when there isn't and never was any reason to hold that info back, especially when working together with MY role?

I've been correct in identifying all the information Pleonast has provided thus far, before he stated it publicly.

You've revealed amr is Town, OAOW is Cabal. FP as a Wolf...all of which you could do by being a Cabalist and being lucky ONLY ON FP.

DB you've claimed is Town and if you get it right, I WILL be trusting you just a bit more because even just sides gotten right over a long period of time relies on more and more luck that may soon run out IF you are lying. But you could easily verify yourself just by revealing ONE role. You don't seem to want to help out Town when I, the Witchdoctor, have told you that I need to speak with a Townie for my power to work. But I don't know the roles if you don't tell us. I could learn a whole lot more a whole lot sooner if you would, rather than waiting for Pleo to reveal them and taking the chance I could be killed at Night somehow.


I can't do more than that. Even if I had given out Role information yesterday, you can't confirm it until Tomorrow.

At least we'd HAVE something to compare it to.

I have demonstrated a non-zero amount of my role's power.
Idle Thoughts, until you can "confirm" yourself, I'd appreciate you stop hounding me. Yesterday, it was somewhat understandable. Today, not so much.

How can I confirm myself when it relies on knowing what roles people are, and you, who holds that power, refuses to do so?

I also take issue with Idle Thoughts's assertion that he is one of the most powerful roles in the game. First, I think you are overstating your role quite a bit. In your original power claim you state:

[quote]Finally, since Idle Thoughts has taken the stance of confronting me on every decision I make, I'll just say, that I'm not believing a word of Idle Thoughts until he confirms his role.
As he says:

Then do it.

Oh wait. You can't.

No, not until I talk to a Witch or Freemason, in which case I'll be confirmed by OTHER people. Kinda hard to DO that when I don't know who the Witches or Freemasons ARE, know what I mean? :rolleyes: I mean, sure, someone can claim that before they die. Are they telling the truth? Are they lying? I COULD find out right away, but ONLY YOU hold that key. And you are refusing to give it up. You are making the/a Witchdoctor have to wait a whole Day and Night (and run the risk of being killed) before he finds out from Pleonast what the role is...when you could just easily say it.


How do we propose confirmation of Idle Thoughts?

Easy. You tell me of a dead Witch or Freemason in this topic if/when you find them, and I talk to them that Night. Either that, or I just wait until one is revealed by Pleo and hope I live that long.

[Idle Thoughts]

While I hate to be the "me too" guy, this sums up some of the thoughts I've been having since Idle claimed.

I've already said how I'm confirmed. Does nobody LISTEN in this game?

I talk to a dead Townie and I learn all they know. If this is a dead Freemason, then I will learn who the others are and that secret sign. So if I learn of this and MAKE the secret sign. obviously the other Freemasons will know I was telling the truth. Do neither of you get this? But not only that, if I talk with a dead Witch, I learn who the other Witches are and they become aware of who I am. I've said this already three or four times. Is that not verification? To Players in the game? If you don't think it is, then you and I/dictionary.com have different means of the word "verified".


So I've just said it again. That is how I'm confirmed to PRO-TOWN players. To you? Well, sure, if you're one of those group roles.

But it all hinges on talking to a dead one of those groups.

And THAT all hinges on KNOWING if one is a Witch or Freemason (or anything--Seer, Detective, etc) after they're dead.

So, pray tell, how can I confirm myself until I talk to someone who is a Witch or Freemason?

And how can I do that until I KNOW of one who is dead? :dubious:

I swear to God, either you and sach are not reading what I'm typing or you both are being deliberatly obtuse just to get me lynched.

[Idle Thoughts]

I think we need to start addressing the "never lynch important roleclaims" rule that has apparently cropped up. This game, everyone is going to role claim. Hell, there's even a reason for Town to falsely roleclaim, given how people have responded so far. Drain Bead failed to roleclaim and died. You and Sach did roleclaim and lived (with mimimal confirmation of Sach and zero confirmation of you).

If we're going to start lynching anyone who votes for a roleclaimant then we're going to get in trouble. I agree with Sach - we need to find a way to verify roleclaims promptly. You said you could be verified easily - so please, fill us in.

Okay, again:
I talk with a dead Witch or Freemason. I learn all they know. And in either case, they become aware of me and know I'm telling the truth. So if you're a Witch or a Freemason, yeah, I'll be verified. To a small group of players, only, but still verified to others, at least. I think that's enough since most people say that "Freemason" is a verified role.

Zoggie is a newbie. I think overall I'm seeing a real expectation for absolute precision which is not realistic. Making mistakes or not having rock-solid lynch reasoning on Day One is a non-tell as far as I'm concerned.

Who cares if she's new? It was the sort of question you'd ask in PM and then have Pleo post it in here. Seems to me it was a free way to say, then "I'm not Cabal since I have to ask this of Pleo in here." It was Day One. I found this suspicious.

(Yes, we should still address and vigorously draw out poor reasoning, especially as the days go on, but we had precious little to go on early in Day One.) Zoggie's reasons for voting for you now are far more clear, and I can't say I wholly disagree.

I'm not in favor of lynching you, Idle Thoughts, just to be clear. But you must realize that a claim like this, that you are now voting for people for even having the nerve of voting for such an important role as yours, and that you have secret powers, really starts to make me (and, I'm sure, others) wonder. And that's why I'd like to get you confirmed as soon as possible.

Eh? Voting for people plural? I'm voting for Zoggie, whom I voted for on Day One. I didn't vote for anyone else who voted for me after I role claimed. Why? Because she already had that extra suspicion and seemed to be the only one, even after everyone unvoted, still pursuing.

[ShadowFacts]

I was addressing Idle Thoughts. I wasn't taking a firm stance against what you said, ShadowFacts, I was cautioning -- because I saw what happened last game. The game became incredibly hostile at one point regarding post amounts and I don't want to see that happen again.

OK, that's perfectly reasonable.

If we're going to make a rule that referencing other games is a strawman argument, then let's say it. Don't try to call it a strawman argument for not being a direct rebuttal of what someone said in this game otherwise, as it's basically misleading.

Have I suggested making some kind of rule about referencing other games? Where would you get that idea from? If you were talking about some other game as you say above, that's fine with me. But the problem is, you didn't mention another game in the post I quoted, so how would I know that was what you were talking about? The reason I called you out for strawmanning is because nobody said what you were rebutting in THIS game, and I said as much in my earlier post.

Anyway, it's a minor point and probably not worth arguing about...

[ShadowFacts]

I've already said how I'm confirmed. Does nobody LISTEN in this game?

You really know how to make people like you, don't you? :p

I don't want to speak for anyone else, but I think some of the reaction to your roleclaim is that your verifiability (is that a word?) is complicated. Sach is easy: he gets it right or he is scum. We just have to wait for Pleo's role reveals to be sure. Simple.

For you, we need to wait until an appropriate role dies. Then the role has to be identified if you don't want to chance wasting your supposed power. Then you have to talk with them. Then, assuming you talked to a freemason or witch (and not, say, a detective), one of those roles has to reveal themselves and say "Yep, Idle is telling the truth". (If we're talking Freemason, I think there would be even another step, because they would have to spend a day giving you the secret sign, but the results of that don't come until the next day, right?)

That's pretty frikkin' convoluted and could actually take much of the rest of the game to play out. Not to mention the fact that we don't want a witch announcing themself just to confirm you. That would be ludicrous.

None of this is any reason to lynch you, necessarily, but when you jump up and down shouting "I'm verifiable, I'm verifiable," in reality it's not quite that easy.

[Boozahol Squid, P.I.]

For you, we need to wait until an appropriate role dies. Then the role has to be identified if you don't want to chance wasting your supposed power. Then you have to talk with them. Then, assuming you talked to a freemason or witch (and not, say, a detective), one of those roles has to reveal themselves and say "Yep, Idle is telling the truth". (If we're talking Freemason, I think there would be even another step, because they would have to spend a day giving you the secret sign, but the results of that don't come until the next day, right?)

Actually, if it's the Detective, Seer, or one of the witches that's dead, Idle would be verifiable if he could pass on their results to the rest of the town. If they'd hit any scum, Idle could be a conduit to the rest of the town for their results, post mortem.

[Boozahol Squid, P.I.]

NETA: -could- be verifiable, not -would-. If the dead person didn't have any scum pings yet, he couldn't pass on any useful info.

[Idle Thoughts]

You really know how to make people like you, don't you? :p

I don't want to speak for anyone else, but I think some of the reaction to your roleclaim is that your verifiability (is that a word?) is complicated. Sach is easy: he gets it right or he is scum. We just have to wait for Pleo's role reveals to be sure. Simple.

Not so simple. sach has not revealed any roles yet. In fact, he hasn't even said whether or not the last two bodies (Hal and Rysto) were Town, Wolf, or Cabal. So not very hard to be right for sach, now is it? When you're that general, you're bound to be right most of the time.

For you, we need to wait until an appropriate role dies. Then the role has to be identified if you don't want to chance wasting your supposed power.

Exactly. So, how am I supposed to do that if sach doesn't do what his role says he does and never reveals roles?

Idle [/B]is telling the truth". (If we're talking Freemason, I think there would be even another step, because they would have to spend a day giving you the secret sign, but the results of that don't come until the next day, right?)

That's pretty frikkin' convoluted and could actually take much of the rest of the game to play out. Not to mention the fact that we don't want a witch announcing themself just to confirm you. That would be ludicrous.

It doesn't matter. I'd still be verified. To you? Yes, if you're one of those roles. No, if you aren't. That doesn't change the meaning of the word verified.

None of this is any reason to lynch you, necessarily, but when you jump up and down shouting "I'm verifiable, I'm verifiable," in reality it's not quite that easy.

Here is how it's going down as I see it. Please tell me if I'm wrong.

Sach: So get verified already. Thought you said you could be?
Idle: But you need to do this before I can.
Sach: I'm not doing that. So get verified already.

And nobody finds that stupid for Town? I only hope the people in the forbidden topic are seeing how idiotic that kind of sense/logic/thought process is.

The sooner Sach starts revealing roles or at least the ones I need to know so I know who is who as soon as possible (like his role says he's supposed to do), the sooner I can be verified to those select few.

[Idle Thoughts]

Actually, if it's the Detective, Seer, or one of the witches that's dead, Idle would be verifiable if he could pass on their results to the rest of the town. If they'd hit any scum, Idle could be a conduit to the rest of the town for their results, post mortem.

Exactly.

So see, for those TRUE Detectives, Seers, Witches, Freemasons out there if they are in this game, it's best to have faith in me or at least wait to see what happens.

But again, I can only do it as fast as when I know who those roles are after death.

[CatInASuit]

My 2p on Idle Thoughts and role verification.

Idle Thoughts, the only question I have to ask is how are you going to verify your role to the entire town without revealing away another town power role.

Yes, if you manage to "nightspeak" to a Witch or Freemason. You will be able to confirm yourself to that small group. That will not verify you to the town in general unless one of that group comes forward and says so. That is not something we want.

If you speak to the detective or seer, we do not know whether or not you are telling the truth or have made up a list.

The only way I can see to self-verify without revealing any over roles is for you to use it on Drain Bead and tell us at the start of Day 4 what role she is. This will confirm you as who you say you are when Pleonast confirms her role. The down side is that removes this power for when a more useful role comes up.

One last thing you said you needed to know the role before you use your power, you don't you only need to know the side as you stated in you role description. It is just more useful with other roles.

[Boozahol Squid, P.I.]

My 2p on Idle Thoughts and role verification.

Idle Thoughts, the only question I have to ask is how are you going to verify your role to the entire town without revealing away another town power role.

Yes, if you manage to "nightspeak" to a Witch or Freemason. You will be able to confirm yourself to that small group. That will not verify you to the town in general unless one of that group comes forward and says so. That is not something we want.

If you speak to the detective or seer, we do not know whether or not you are telling the truth or have made up a list.

The only way I can see to self-verify without revealing any over roles is for you to use it on Drain Bead and tell us at the start of Day 4 what role she is. This will confirm you as who you say you are when Pleonast confirms her role. The down side is that removes this power for when a more useful role comes up.

One last thing you said you needed to know the role before you use your power, you don't you only need to know the side as you stated in you role description. It is just more useful with other roles.

If he nightspeaks to a witch, detective or seer, we'll lynch whom he says to lynch. If they're not who he says they were, we lynch him. I'm still hoping that in this game, killing a scum is worth killing a townie. That's hard to say, especially depending on who he picks, if he's not telling the truth.

[sachertorte]

Don't be so close minded. I've deliberately not told you the roles of players because their roles are precisely a mechanism for you to confirm yourself.

For example:
I've told you that amrussell is TOWN. That is sufficient information for you to use your power. You don't need to know what her role is. You can ASK HER YOURSELF. Thus you could have done so last night, and then today you could announce amrussell's role. I would confirm/deny you are correct, and you will have confirmed your power (even further confirmation when Pleonast shows you are correct). But now the amrussell option is past. Tomorrow morning Pleonast will announce her role so you will not be able to preempt the public reveal.

Don't you get it? I don't need to reveal amrussell's role to confirm myself.

So no, Idle Thoughts, I have plenty good reason to sit on Roles. And I'm kind of offended that you take this ridiculous position that no one else could possibly understand how to play their own role better than you. How the *#(@ was I supposed to know that you wanted role information to use your secret power? You kept wailing about "confirming" ME -- which makes no sense. I will get opportunity (obligation) to confirm myself day after day after day. So forgive me for ignoring your ridiculous requests. :rolleyes: Furthermore, I gave you sufficient information to use your power, TOWN ALIGNMENT. Of course, if you are lying about your role, then obviously you would want me to tell you Roles, because you would not be able to report back to the town with accurate information.

You had a plan for self-confirmation. I see a different plan.

So here we are, amrussell is out since her role gets stated by Pleonast in the morning. Are you prepared to trust me enough to talk with a dead player of my choosing then tell the town their role to prove your power claim? (NB, power claim, not role claim) Personally, I think we should do this Tonight since waiting for a choice role seems... well tempting, but problematic from a time management point of view. (Also note, that Drain Bead's Side will be revealed before your Night Action for further confirmation of me before you make a final decision). If you agree and the town agrees, I will speak nothing of Idle Thoughts for the rest of the Day save for a last minute post telling Idle Thoughts who to talk to tonight.

[Boozahol Squid, P.I.]

Don't be so close minded. I've deliberately not told you the roles of players because their roles are precisely a mechanism for you to confirm yourself.

For example:
I've told you that amrussell is TOWN. That is sufficient information for you to use your power. You don't need to know what her role is. You can ASK HER YOURSELF. Thus you could have done so last night, and then today you could announce amrussell's role. I would confirm/deny you are correct, and you will have confirmed your power (even further confirmation when Pleonast shows you are correct). But now the amrussell option is past. Tomorrow morning Pleonast will announce her role so you will not be able to preempt the public reveal.

Don't you get it? I don't need to reveal amrussell's role to confirm myself.

So no, Idle Thoughts, I have plenty good reason to sit on Roles. And I'm kind of offended that you take this ridiculous position that no one else could possibly understand how to play their own role better than you. How the *#(@ was I supposed to know that you wanted role information to use your secret power? You kept wailing about "confirming" ME -- which makes no sense. I will get opportunity (obligation) to confirm myself day after day after day. So forgive me for ignoring your ridiculous requests. :rolleyes: Furthermore, I gave you sufficient information to use your power, TOWN ALIGNMENT. Of course, if you are lying about your role, then obviously you would want me to tell you Roles, because you would not be able to report back to the town with accurate information.

You had a plan for self-confirmation. I see a different plan.

So here we are, amrussell is out since her role gets stated by Pleonast in the morning. Are you prepared to trust me enough to talk with a dead player of my choosing then tell the town their role to prove your power claim? (NB, power claim, not role claim) Personally, I think we should do this Tonight since waiting for a choice role seems... well tempting, but problematic from a time management point of view. (Also note, that Drain Bead's Side will be revealed before your Night Action for further confirmation of me before you make a final decision). If you agree and the town agrees, I will speak nothing of Idle Thoughts for the rest of the Day save for a last minute post telling Idle Thoughts who to talk to tonight.

I just want to say that if Idle is telling the truth, then we probably don't want him talking to amrussell. If amrussell was a mason, then all Idle would have would be confirmability. The best usage of his ability (and I think he said his extra ability could only be used once a game) would be to get information from a dead investigator.

[Boozahol Squid, P.I.]

NETA: and if amrussell was an investigator, then he didn't have a chance to use his ability. And if he was neither mason nor investigator, then there's no reason for Idle to be disturbing his grave.

[CatInASuit]

Oh Crud, it's WIFOM time.

This isn't going to work and Idle Thoughts has done it too himself.

You see, the way I see the likely turn out on Day 4 is that Idle Thoughts will come back tomorrow night and say he was blocked and now he can't use his power anymore.

The simple answer will be because of one of two reasons.

1. He is the WitchDoctor and the Cabal will block him overnight to prevent his self verification getting him lynched the following day.
2. He is a lying scum.

Now for the WIFOM.

If the Cabal block him, he cannot do anything which makes him a good target for the wolves and vampires.

If the Cabal do not block him and he uses his "nightspeak" power he cannot self ressurect leading to Wolf or Vampire kill if they target him.

If the Cabal do not block and he uses his ressurect powers a killer is in for a shock in two days time.

However in using his ressurect powers he cannot "nightspeak" and so verify his role, probably leading to his imminent lynching.

Have I even started, not remotely....

If a Warlock targets him, and a wolf kills him, Idle Thoughts remains blocked if the Cabal target him and the wolf dies.

If a Warlock targets Idle Thoughts, and a vampire kills him, Idle Thoughts dies and the Warlock dies the following night.

Of course, the witches could decide to protect him rendering all attacks void but does that prevent the Cabal blocking Idle Thoughts and so he he gets no read again.

If Idle Thoughts is really lucky, everyone gets nervous and targets other players.

The only answer I have to discern is. "Are you the kind of person who would target Idle Thoughts"

[Boozahol Squid, P.I.]

Ahem.

Pleonast = Bastard Mod.




:)

[MHaye]

I talk to a dead Townie and I learn all they know. If this is a dead Freemason, then I will learn who the others are and that secret sign. So if I learn of this and MAKE the secret sign. obviously the other Freemasons will know I was telling the truth.

You do realise that Freemasons don't actually know each other at the start of the game, don't you?

Any given Freemason may know nothing except who he is and the secret sign, if early investigations have gone badly. It's entirely possible that amr, even assuming he's telling the truth, knows no other freemasons at all. If he committed to investigating somone else (say you) all he will learn is that you are not a Mason. Then if all the other Masons had picked investigations and did not come back to the thread in time to change their investigation, asking amr who the other Masons are will elicit no response.

Of course it´s quite possible that some Masons did investigate amr, in which case it would be worth investigating him.

Your impatience to verify yourself worries me just a little. Why insist on doing it now? It can surely wait until Day 4 to speak to amr, or is there some time limit? I forget that detail.

[CatInASuit]

Ok,

I have been looking back at the end of Day 1 given that we now know that OAOW was a Cabal member.

Considering the usual thoughts that are had concerning no-lynching, it was surprising to see at least three people voting No-Lynch.

They were Rysto (#487, #490), MHaye (#494) and sachertorte. (#495)

Now Rysto provided a certain amount of explanation yesterday and is now deceased, so we can discover his role shortly. sachertorte has claimed to be the coroner and is slowly validating his role. Also the pair of them said the main reason for doing this was that if he was lying the Vigilante could kill him.

MHaye said the reason for doing this is thast we would need as many people as possible to win the game??

MHaye - can you explain what you mean by this as this is not usually a good reason for a No-Lynch where the need for information is normally held to be more important than an individual townie even though we are playing in a purely power role game.

[HazelNutCoffee]

sachertorte, I don't think it's a good idea for Idle to use his speaking to the dead ability simply as a means of confirming himself. There are so many other situations where it would come in handy, such as if a Witch or a Detective is killed before they have a chance to share information. Idle can only do so, however, if he knows the role of the dead.

The problem with you telling Idle who to talk to without revealing the role of said dead person is that Idle will have to trust your judgement with no questions asked. Or all of us, actually, will have to do so. Somehow I doubt this is going to happen. ;)

[Hockey Monkey]

Quickly checking in...I am reading but haven't had the time to compose a substantive post. Hopefully tonight I will be able to get some time to do so.

[MHaye]

MHaye said the reason for doing this is thast we would need as many people as possible to win the game??

MHaye - can you explain what you mean by this as this is not usually a good reason for a No-Lynch where the need for information is normally held to be more important than an individual townie even though we are playing in a purely power role game.Basically, I think there are a lot of scum in this game. It was then my belief that we had ten players distributed between the scum factions. The game works not because the Town outnumber the Scum, but that the scum factions have to fight each other as well as the townies.

For the Town to win they have to keep as many Townies in play as possible. The various scumside teams can win by reducing the number of active players to a certain minimum. What I was concerned about was that the Town cannot afford to lose too many players or we'll lose the game.

Given the choice between lynching a claimed power role that we had ten minutes (or less) to post analysis about before Nightfall or voting No Lynch to preserve the player for Day 2 and take time to think through the issue, or lynch in haste and repent at leisure, I chose the former option.

OAOW's claim turned out to be false, thus driving a huge hole through my analysis. At the time, though, it seemed the best option.

[Pleonast]

Woohoo! Top of the page!

[Idle Thoughts]

Idle Thoughts, the only question I have to ask is how are you going to verify your role to the entire town without revealing away another town power role.

Why would I have to do that? As far as I can tell, Masons have always been considered a "verified" role to players because there are others who know they are telling the truth.

Yes, if you manage to "nightspeak" to a Witch or Freemason. You will be able to confirm yourself to that small group. That will not verify you to the town in general unless one of that group comes forward and says so. That is not something we want.

So what? As far as I can tell, Masons have always been considered a "verified" role to players because there are others who know they are telling the truth.

What would make me any different?

If you speak to the detective or seer, we do not know whether or not you are telling the truth or have made up a list.

True, but it's all moot anyway until I know who is who. Only then will I decide who I will speak with.

The only way I can see to self-verify without revealing any over roles is for you to use it on Drain Bead and tell us at the start of Day 4 what role she is. This will confirm you as who you say you are when Pleonast confirms her role. The down side is that removes this power for when a more useful role comes up.

Sorry, I'm not taking that chance. sach said she was Town but I still don't fully trust sach. Until I can or until the trust builds up over time, I'm not going to just go on one person's word alone who refuses to only give half the info (sometimes) and no info at all (in the case of Hal and Rysto) others.

One last thing you said you needed to know the role before you use your power, you don't you only need to know the side as you stated in you role description. It is just more useful with other roles.

Sorry, I'm not taking that chance. sach said she was Town but I still don't fully trust sach. Until I can or until the trust builds up over time, I'm not going to just go on one person's word alone who refuses to only give half the info (sometimes) and no info at all (in the case of Hal and Rysto) others.

Don't be so close minded. I've deliberately not told you the roles of players because their roles are precisely a mechanism for you to confirm yourself.

So you are impeding the interest and good of Town? That is very, very anti-Town. Not telling me just so I WON'T be confirmed? I'm reading this right?

If I'm ever dead and gone without ever being verified, I SO hope everyone in this game puts so much pressure on you for it. IF YOU ARE really the Coroner, you are screwing things royally for Town by doing what you're doing. You are NOT having the Town's best interest at heart by not giving out any info.

You have again and again said you are going to reveal roles "later", yet you have done none of this. Hal and Rysto have died and you have even yet told us SIDES. Why? Why not? Are you afraid you'll "guess" a side wrong?

You are pushing for suspicion on me and you seem to be forgetting one thing IF YOU ARE the Coroner. That when I'm dead (and revealed to be the Witchdoctor), scum will have a GREAT REASON to lynch you. "Because you didn't do what Idle Thoughts said all the time. He was right", and then they'll turn on YOU, and if you're really the Cononer, God have mercy on your game soul.

Right now, though, IF YOU REALLY ARE the Coroner, we have a chance. Our roles work together. But right now IF YOU REALLY ARE the Coroner, you're being and acting extremely foolish, ignorant, and anti-Town.

And apparently I'm the only one that can see it.


For example:
I've told you that amrussell is TOWN. That is sufficient information for you to use your power.

You could be lying. You have not said any roles, which would give you IMMEDIATE VERIFICATION in my mind. Instead, you choose to do the "slow bit by bit" plan where you just gain trust little by little just getting sides right..and that's when you reveal the sides even, which you haven't done for all of the dead players yet. If you think roles is info, hey, that's all well and good. Whatever your deluded mind wants to believe. But what about sides?

You don't need to know what her role is. You can ASK HER YOURSELF.

Why would I want to take a shot in the dark and waste my one time power on someone who could be scum? OR, if she is Town, someone who wouldn't be able to yield much info? I'd much rather talk to a Witch than anything, but Freemason, Detective or Seer work well. If I could talk to her and did and she turns out to be NONE of these things or any Town role that reveals info, guess what? I wasted my talk. I'm beginning to think you want that.


Don't you get it? I don't need to reveal amrussell's role to confirm myself.

Apparently you don't need to reveal sides anymore either as you have not yet done so with two players.

So no, Idle Thoughts, I have plenty good reason to sit on Roles.

No, you don't. What are they? Tell me one and I'll leave you alone.

And I'm kind of offended that you take this ridiculous position that no one else could possibly understand how to play their own role better than you. How the *#(@ was I supposed to know that you wanted role information to use your secret power? You kept wailing about "confirming" ME -- which makes no sense. I will get opportunity (obligation) to confirm myself day after day after day.

But you haven't yet and I don't see how you could if you refuse to give roles or, in some cases, even sides.

What info are you speaking about to bring back to "my side"? How would info of any kind help scum?

You had a plan for self-confirmation. I see a different plan.

Where did I say that? Self-confirmation? I've told you how I can be confirmed by people. You refuse to do your part. You are playing anti-Town.

So here we are, amrussell is out since her role gets stated by Pleonast in the morning. Are you prepared to trust me enough to talk with a dead player of my choosing then tell the town their role to prove your power claim? (NB, power claim, not role claim)

Sorry, but no. I cannot trust someone who

1. Only gives out half the info and
2. even then, only gives it out SOMETIMES

I find that suspicious and anti-Town. Thus, I don't trust you right now.


You see, the way I see the likely turn out on Day 4 is that Idle Thoughts will come back tomorrow night and say he was blocked and now he can't use his power anymore.

The simple answer will be because of one of two reasons.

I'm so glad that you can predict what I'd do in this game but how about letting me play my own role and you play whatever side or role you have? Don't guess at what I'd do. I may look stupid but I'm not as stupid as you seem to be thinking I am when it comes to this game.

If the Cabal block him, he cannot do anything which makes him a good target for the wolves and vampires.

But I can be protected.

If the Cabal do not block him and he uses his "nightspeak" power he cannot self ressurect leading to Wolf or Vampire kill if they target him.

But I can be protected.

If the Cabal do not block and he uses his ressurect powers a killer is in for a shock in two days time.

This operates under the guise that I'm enchanting myself. But it would apply to anyone I enchant.

However in using his ressurect powers he cannot "nightspeak" and so verify his role, probably leading to his imminent lynching.

Oh yeah? How could I not be verified this way? If I'm the one killed and ressurected, I'd say that was a pretty big point in my favor (as if there weren't many other ways out there). If someone I'm enchanting is killed, and I'm still alive come the next Day, I'll say right away if the person is coming back. When they do, there you go...otherwise, how would I have know?

And yeah, sach brought up recruitment that happens to look like a resurrection. Oh gee, how convienent. Well see, then when it happens again and I call it and the player comes back to life, it still applies.

[Idle Thoughts]

You do realise that Freemasons don't actually know each other at the start of the game, don't you?

Any given Freemason may know nothing except who he is and the secret sign, if early investigations have gone badly. It's entirely possible that amr, even assuming he's telling the truth, knows no other freemasons at all. If he committed to investigating somone else (say you) all he will learn is that you are not a Mason. Then if all the other Masons had picked investigations and did not come back to the thread in time to change their investigation, asking amr who the other Masons are will elicit no response.

I'd still get the secret sign though. That's the key/link.

Your impatience to verify yourself worries me just a little. Why insist on doing it now? It can surely wait until Day 4 to speak to amr, or is there some time limit? I forget that detail.

No time limit but it seems there are more than a couple people still willing to cast suspicion of me and even one who's willing to lynch me in the Days....so I may be SHORT on time.

[CatInASuit]

Idle Thoughts

I can understand why you feel that if claim you talk to a Freemason or Witch you are as good as verified. If you claim it, the Witches and Freemasons would know by the following dawn whether you were telling the truth or not and so could out you.

Fair Enough.

Also would it have helped if I had thrown a few smilies into my WIFOM post. :p

I am claiming no knowledge of how you are going to play the game or any knowledge of how any of the other disparate groups and people in this game are going to act. It started off with the simple principle of the easy way to make you look scummy if you were not scum, and it spiralled from there and was more to highlight the absurd amount of possiblities. The only way I could know what your action would be, is if I was you.

And I'm definitely not you. ;)

[sachertorte]

Ugh. This is ridiculous.

Idle, you are not master of this game. There are things that you don't know and there are things that you apparently don't understand. For you to state that the rest of us are incapable of playing this game as well as you and we should just blindly follow everything you say is insulting and unfun.

1) At this moment, I am as confirmed as I possibly can be at this time. More information from me does not improve my level of confirmation at this time. If I felt that more information would help the town, I would state so.

2) You are being contradictory. How can it be that you are willing to act on roles I give out, but not on sides? You keep saying you need role information to pick out a dead person to talk to. Yet when we point out that no, all you need are sides, you go back to railing on how you don't trust me. If you don't trust that my side information is accurate, then you have no reason to trust that my role information is correct either. Conversely, if you do trust that my role information is correct, then you also trust that the side information is correc. Therefore, side information alone should be sufficient information to operate your role. You either trust me or you don't. You might say that you want role information to increase your trust, which is fine. But don't conflate that with needing role information to operate your power, because you don't.

3) You misunderstand my plan. My intention is to withhold role information so as to enable you to confirm your power. If we wake up Tomorrow and you tell us role information before Pleonast publicly reveals, then that will be much more convincing than if you come back and say, yeah, sachetorte was right _____ really is the _____.
How you went from that to thinking I was withholding information to prevent you from confirming is baffling to me. I'm trying to help you, and all I get is grief from you. Maybe I'll just stop bothering.

4) I understand that you have your own plan. A roadblock consists of a choice between two tasks, each with its pros and cons... :D

5) You minunderstand the game mechanics. CatInASuit suggested you talk with Drain Bead Tonight and reveal her role Tomorrow. You rejected this out of blind and irrational distrust of me. You don't need me for CatInASuit's plan. Pleonast will reveal Drain Bead's Side at Dusk. You will know 100% that Drain Bead is Town at Dusk. CatInASuit's plan has merit, yet you dismiss it. Why? CatInASuit's plan relies on your power alone and is independent of my role (well, marginally in that I need to not reveal Drain Bead's Role for CatInASuit's plan to work). Oh, look at that, a reason to withhold information!

[HazelNutCoffee]

Am I talking into the wind here? Someone tell me again why it's a good idea for Idle Thoughts to use this once-a-game power to talk to the dead simply to prove his role-claim?

[sachertorte]

HazelNutCoffee,
My take is that we have to balance the timeliness of confirming Idle Thoughts against using his power optimally. If we wait too long, then we've given potential scum several days of additional nightkills (if Vampire). On the other hand, by waiting, we can potentially get more information about scum. An additional problem is that Idle Thoughts is merely the first of what could be many undocumented special powers. If we allow too much a of backlog now, then Two Days from now we could be faced with confronting several powerclaims at once (although we might be able to process them in parallel). Basically, we can't wait forever for Idle Thoughts to confirm his power. It's debatable how long we should wait.

[CatInASuit]

Am I talking into the wind here? Someone tell me again why it's a good idea for Idle Thoughts to use this once-a-game power to talk to the dead simply to prove his role-claim?
Ask Idle Thoughts

Post 932

I've already said how I'm confirmed. Does nobody LISTEN in this game?

I talk to a dead Townie and I learn all they know. If this is a dead Freemason, then I will learn who the others are and that secret sign. So if I learn of this and MAKE the secret sign. obviously the other Freemasons will know I was telling the truth. Do neither of you get this? But not only that, if I talk with a dead Witch, I learn who the other Witches are and they become aware of who I am. I've said this already three or four times. Is that not verification? To Players in the game? If you don't think it is, then you and I/dictionary.com have different means of the word "verified".


So I've just said it again. That is how I'm confirmed to PRO-TOWN players. To you? Well, sure, if you're one of those group roles.

But it all hinges on talking to a dead one of those groups.

And THAT all hinges on KNOWING if one is a Witch or Freemason (or anything--Seer, Detective, etc) after they're dead.

So, pray tell, how can I confirm myself until I talk to someone who is a Witch or Freemason?

And how can I do that until I KNOW of one who is dead? :dubious:

I swear to God, either you and sach are not reading what I'm typing or you both are being deliberatly obtuse just to get me lynched.
Personally I would prefer not to waste it. However, if he talks to the witches, they will know who he is and vice versa, the seer/detective can pass on their findings. I will be honest and say I am not sure about the freemasons. I can't see anything that says Idle Thoughts definitely gets their secret handshake or whether he just gets a list of the other freemasons they have encountered.

Idle Thoughts - can you confirm how you know that you get their handshake or is it part of "their knowledge"?

Effectively, this comes down to a matter of trust.

Idle Thoughts has to trust sachertorte that the person he suggests is the right person to talk to of those who have already died. Then the town has to trust Idle Thoughts when he reports back. Idle Thoughts can also confirm that the person he spoke to was useful providing trust in sachertorte and confirmation of the role will be provided by sachertorte and then Pleonast after a couple of days.

If it works, we gain the information lost or increase the size of a pro-town power block. If either of them are scum or play anti-town, then it will waste the opportunity.

And no pro-town player wants that.

[sachertorte]

Idle Thoughts,
You have consistenly stated that you do not trust me. I'm fine with this, but you should also know that I don't trust you. So given that I don't trust you, the fact that I'm not revealing information that you have rabidly demanded should not be that surprising. I know that the town's trust in me will increase as the game progresses. Our trust in you is minimal and stagnant. My waiting for you to trust me is not such a bad plan from my point of view.

With that in mind, each pre-Dusk I will state a player that I think Idle Thoughts should have a chat with. When Idle Thoughts is sufficiently trusting of me, he can talk with that spirit when he so chooses. Obviously, I will choose the optimal player for Idle Thoughts to speak with that evening.
If you trust me, do as I say.
If you do not trust me, do nothing.

[fluiddruid]

Ugh. This is ridiculous.

Idle, you are not master of this game. There are things that you don't know and there are things that you apparently don't understand. For you to state that the rest of us are incapable of playing this game as well as you and we should just blindly follow everything you say is insulting and unfun.Agreed, and what I came to post. Idle, if your intention is to order around the rest of the Town and lynch people who don't immediately acquiesce or who question (or, heavens no, VOTE for) you, no thanks. I suppose you'll add me to your personal lynch list for saying so, but you've come across as hostile for the whole of Yesterday and Today. Town needs to work together, and you're not helping with this attitude of "with me or against me", particularly since you are working against our (presumed) coroner.

We cannot accept that you are Town without verification. You said that you can easily be verified, but not without expending a considerable game advantage to Town - quite a pickle.

I'm not in favor of lynching you - yet - but this conversation cannot and will not revolve solely around you and I will not accept a scenario in which you harangue everyone for not being led by the nose. That's anti-Town, flat out. And I won't vote for someone for voting for you either, at this point.

[Freudian Slit]

Sorry I've been a bit AWOL. I've been posting on the boards on simpler threads due to general business/hungover-ness. Will try to gather my thoughts for later.

[Pleonast]

MadTheSwine has been replaced by dotchan.

Although I prefer to mod-kill rather than sub, it's still early in the game. And it's not like Mad has said much anyway. :p

[dotchan]

MWAHAHAHA! Beware, foul Undead, savage Wolves, and nefarious Cabal! :D

I've been sort of following along, but obviously I've been putting most of my attention into the Firefly game. I'm gonna try to reread the thread (at least the stuff pertaining to sach and Idles' respective claims) and put in my two cents ASAP.

[Freudian Slit]

Whoohoo! Welcome to the game, dotchan.

[CatInASuit]

MadTheSwine has been replaced by dotchan.

Although I prefer to mod-kill rather than sub, it's still early in the game. And it's not like Mad has said much anyway. :p
Bye MadTheSwine, sorry to see you go.

Hi dotchan, try not to get lynched on your first day. ;)

[Boozahol Squid, P.I.]

MWAHAHAHA! Beware, foul Undead, savage Wolves, and nefarious Cabal! :D

I've been sort of following along, but obviously I've been putting most of my attention into the Firefly game. I'm gonna try to reread the thread (at least the stuff pertaining to sach and Idles' respective claims) and put in my two cents ASAP.


Welcome to our party, dot!

FOS: dotchan

You know, just for old times sake, right?

[dotchan]

>.>

As Roosh would say, Dio, most uncool!

But anyway, my 2 cents on the sachertorte vs. Idle Thoughts bruhaha...

*sachertorte's reticence makes sense if he is telling the truth, but also very frustrating at the same time. He's not the only one playing the game, after all. sachertorte, does your role PM hold any indications that the Wolves and Undead have Day powers?

*Idle Thoughts' role claim and PM doesn't sound made up, but I find do it odd that his PM doesn't have the extra bit of information that sachertorte has. Still, this may just be Pleonast being a bastard mod, and I've just learned the hard way in the other game that Idle Thoughts' playstyle is more or less a null tell. At any rate, it's insane to lynch a claimed, uncontested Witchdoctor, especially this early in the game.

A more detailed list of suspects will be written up as soon as I get a chance to read the rest of the thread.

[Freudian Slit]

Maybe I've been reading too much Dawkins, but this is starting to remind me of the Prisoner's Dilemma (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner's_dilemma).

Idle Thoughts and sachertorte have to cooperate for both their (and our) good. But they both have to trust each other, and it seems like so far they're both defecting. And, now having read that chapter in Dawkins's Selfish Gene, it's fairly understandable why. It seems like they both have to much to lose by trusting each other. (Then again, I may have totally misunderstood that chapter. It was very math-y.)

I'm not sure where we go from here.

[Idle Thoughts]

Ugh. This is ridiculous.

Idle, you are not master of this game. There are things that you don't know and there are things that you apparently don't understand. For you to state that the rest of us are incapable of playing this game as well as you and we should just blindly follow everything you say is insulting and unfun.

Hey, I freely admit there may be things I don't know. I can't happen to think of any, however, and don't know of any that would be regarding the Coroner role.

1) At this moment, I am as confirmed as I possibly can be at this time. More information from me does not improve my level of confirmation at this time. If I felt that more information would help the town, I would state so.

Why have you not said Hal or Rysto's side even yet?

2) You are being contradictory. How can it be that you are willing to act on roles I give out, but not on sides? You keep saying you need role information to pick out a dead person to talk to. Yet when we point out that no, all you need are sides

How is that? I wouldn't want to talk with a scum. For all I know you're lying and want me to waste it on a scum. But if you ARE THE CORONER, I wouldn't want to talk to, say, a Scotsman or a Magician or Vig either. So no, saying just "They're Town" doesn't work. They could be Town and be one of those that doesn't yeild much or any info. I have the potential to learn a LOT of info, but only if I talk to the right roles. Why you'd just want me to waste it on any "Townie" that you proclaim, I don't know.


If you don't trust that my side information is accurate, then you have no reason to trust that my role information is correct either.

But when Pleo gives the real info out, if just one matches, it would gain you a lot more trust. Apparently you don't get this or are being purposefully obtuse.

Conversely, if you do trust that my role information is correct, then you also trust that the side information is correct. Therefore, side information alone should be sufficient information to operate your role.

I wouldn't want to talk to, say, a Scotsman or a Magician or Vig either. So no, saying just "They're Town" doesn't work. They could be Town and be one of those that doesn't yeild much or any info. I have the potential to learn a LOT of info, but only if I talk to the right roles. Why you'd just want me to waste it on any "Townie" that you proclaim, I don't know.


You either trust me or you don't. You might say that you want role information to increase your trust, which is fine. But don't conflate that with needing role information to operate your power, because you don't.

Unless I want to talk to a person in the dark, yeah, I do. Either from you or someone who claims it (who I happen to believe). But even they could be lying. The real Coroner is the only one that will know.

3) You misunderstand my plan. My intention is to withhold role information so as to enable you to confirm your power. If we wake up Tomorrow and you tell us role information before Pleonast publicly reveals, then that will be much more convincing than if you come back and say, yeah, sachetorte was right _____ really is the _____.
How you went from that to thinking I was withholding information to prevent you from confirming is baffling to me. I'm trying to help you, and all I get is grief from you. Maybe I'll just stop bothering.

Why would I want to potentially waste my one time talk? I want to talk with a Witch most of all followed by a Freemason, Detective and Seer in that order. So unless one of the "Town" people you say is one of those, I don't want to risk wasting it. And you, you're not saying either way. So I guess I just have to wait until Pleo does and hope I don't die by that time.


5) You minunderstand the game mechanics. CatInASuit suggested you talk with Drain Bead Tonight and reveal her role Tomorrow. You rejected this out of blind and irrational distrust of me.

As I've already said and others have already said, why would I want to risk wasting the talk on just a "Town" read? She could be a Town that doesn't have much info to give out. And if that's the case, guess what?

1. I've wasted my one time talk.
2. I wouldn't have anything to confirm myself with.


So again, I say your way of thinking is anti-Town.

[Idle Thoughts]

HazelNutCoffee,
My take is that we have to balance the timeliness of confirming Idle Thoughts against using his power optimally. If we wait too long, then we've given potential scum several days of additional nightkills (if Vampire). On the other hand, by waiting, we can potentially get more information about scum. An additional problem is that Idle Thoughts is merely the first of what could be many undocumented special powers. If we allow too much a of backlog now, then Two Days from now we could be faced with confronting several powerclaims at once (although we might be able to process them in parallel). Basically, we can't wait forever for Idle Thoughts to confirm his power. It's debatable how long we should wait.

Then why don't you just tell me when you come across a Witch or one of those other good ones, Kay? :) Otherwise I'm not just taking "Oh, they're a Townie".

[Idle Thoughts]

I can't see anything that says Idle Thoughts definitely gets their secret handshake or whether he just gets a list of the other freemasons they have encountered.

My role description says I will talk to the dead player and learn all the info they know up until their death. Go back and read it. I posted it yeserDay. If this is a Freemason, I'm pretty sure "what the secret sign is" is info they'd know and thus I would learn.

Idle Thoughts has to trust sachertorte that the person he suggests is the right person to talk to of those who have already died. Then the town has to trust Idle Thoughts when he reports back. Idle Thoughts can also confirm that the person he spoke to was useful providing trust in sachertorte and confirmation of the role will be provided by sachertorte and then Pleonast after a couple of days.

Well, it's all moot since sach refuses to reveal anything one way or the other and wants me to talk with someone just based on being Town. Again, if DB was just a Town with little or no info then there would be no way to confirm myself and the talk will have done little good. So pardon me if I find this suspicious that sach wants me to just talk based on "She's Town".

[Idle Thoughts]

Idle Thoughts,
You have consistenly stated that you do not trust me. I'm fine with this, but you should also know that I don't trust you. So given that I don't trust you, the fact that I'm not revealing information that you have rabidly demanded should not be that surprising. I know that the town's trust in me will increase as the game progresses. Our trust in you is minimal and stagnant. My waiting for you to trust me is not such a bad plan from my point of view.

With that in mind, each pre-Dusk I will state a player that I think Idle Thoughts should have a chat with. When Idle Thoughts is sufficiently trusting of me, he can talk with that spirit when he so chooses. Obviously, I will choose the optimal player for Idle Thoughts to speak with that evening.
If you trust me, do as I say.
If you do not trust me, do nothing.

That's fine.

Really, all I can do is wait. Either for your trust to increase or for Pleonast to reveal the roles (because either way, I can talk to a dead Townie anytime, even if they died wayyyy back on Night One).

My main suspicions just come from three things still.

1. The fact that you seem you're trying/want to get me confirmed asap.
2. The fact that you still haven't said certain sides even.
3. The fact that you think it's a good idea to talk with someone you've only branded as "Town" when there is ultimately a big difference in info I could get depending on what a Townie was.

But I'm content to wait for now. I just hope I live that long. For my and your sake. Beause if I die early...I foresee people turning on you if you haven't given more things to confirm yourself by then.

[Idle Thoughts]

Agreed, and what I came to post. Idle, if your intention is to order around the rest of the Town and lynch people who don't immediately acquiesce or who question (or, heavens no, VOTE for) you, no thanks.

Where have I done anything like this?

I suppose you'll add me to your personal lynch list for saying so, but you've come across as hostile for the whole of Yesterday and Today.

How so?

Town needs to work together, and you're not helping with this attitude of "with me or against me", particularly since you are working against our (presumed) coroner.

Read all of my posts above. For all those reasons, which are plainly stated, very clear, and very understable, I have mistrust of him. How are you of the mind that I should be just taking all he says as a for-sure word?

We cannot accept that you are Town without verification. You said that you can easily be verified, but not without expending a considerable game advantage to Town - quite a pickle.

I cannot be verified until I talk with a Town role that has verification behind it.
I cannot do this until I know who is one.

Since sach is keeping mum, I will wait for Pleo to reveal them and hope I survive the Nights.

I'm not in favor of lynching you - yet - but this conversation cannot and will not revolve solely around you and I will not accept a scenario in which you harangue everyone for not being led by the nose.

Please show me where I have done this.

[sachertorte]

But when Pleo gives the real info out, if just one matches, it would gain you a lot more trust. Apparently you don't get this or are being purposefully obtuse.
I'm rapidly growing tired of my conversation with Idle Thoughts and being called obtuse is not particularly motivating towards devoting copious amounts of time to this game.

1) Pleonast has not revealed any Role information against which to compare.
2) I will reveal role information prior to Pleonast revealing Roles (with some execeptions if the need arises).
Nothing obtuse there.

Allow me to use the word obtuse as well:
Idle Thoughts is being obtuse in not realizing that if he trusts me enough to rely on Role information I have given, then he should trust me enough to talk with the person with whom I say is a good nighttime conversation.
Idle Thoughts is being obtuse in not realizing that talking with someone whose role is unknown can gain important information AND confirm his power claim.
Idle Thoughts is being obtuse in thinking that I would suggest people to talk to that would waste his ability.

Just for fun, because I know everyone here loves math:
Let's assume that I knew OAOW's role because Idle Thoughts thinks I might be a Cabalist: P(One And Only Wanders) = 1.0.
Let's assume that I guessed that amrussell was telling the truth: P(amrussell) = 1.0; (really it should be approximately 12/18, but Idle Thoughts is being obtuse, so we'll set the number to 1.0 for now)
Let's assume that there are 4 werewolves and 4 Cabalists: P(Fretful Porpentine) = 4/18.
Let's assume P(Drain Bead) = 12/18;

Then the probability of guessing the sides of those four players is bounded at a bit under 15%. If we do the analysis correctly (because guessing that amrussell was telling the truth really is functionally equivalent to guessing her alignment) the probablity drops to 10%.
Confirmed? Not completely, but close... and as close as I can get at the current time.

This is all the confirmation information that will be available to Idle Thoughts before he decides whether or not to trust me Tonight. Even if I give out the role of my suggestion, it will not change the amount by which I can be confirmed. However, by not giving out the role information, we will be better able to confirm Idle Thoughts Tomorrow. Perhaps some objective third parties could chime in on whether or not I'm being obtuse in thinking that I've revealed the proper amount of information.

Idle, I'm not doing these things willy nilly or to annoy you. I've thought though everything carefully (except for the MHaye thing on Day One).

Oh, and we probably should decide on who to lynch Today.

[Kat]

My role description says I will talk to the dead player and learn all the info they know up until their death. Go back and read it. I posted it yeserDay. If this is a Freemason, I'm pretty sure "what the secret sign is" is info they'd know and thus I would learn.

I've a question about this, though. It's possible that the concept of Freemason recognizing each other via a "secret sign" could be interpreted just as flavor text for "Freemasons give Pleonast a name and get a response indicating if that person is another Freemason or not".

If this is the case, just knowing what a Freemason knows (the "secret sign" and any other Freemasons he or she knows) doesn't necessarily mean Idle Thoughts can use the secret sign to ID himself to Freemasons or ID other Freemasons. So...the only way Idle could "prove" his role by talking to a Freemason would be to out another Freemason? Idle would know who the other Freemasons are, but they wouldn't know who he is.

Of course, this could be a complete and total misinterpretation on my part. If it isn't, a different dead Townie role would be a better choice.

[ShadowFacts]

This is all the confirmation information that will be available to Idle Thoughts before he decides whether or not to trust me Tonight. Even if I give out the role of my suggestion, it will not change the amount by which I can be confirmed. However, by not giving out the role information, we will be better able to confirm Idle Thoughts Tomorrow. Perhaps some objective third parties could chime in on whether or not I'm being obtuse in thinking that I've revealed the proper amount of information.

Hang on. I've been away from the game quite a bit recently and am trying to catch up. Are you now saying that you will NOT reveal amrussell's and Fretful's roles right before Dusk toDay? Because I think that would be a mistake. If you are correct about both of those Roles, it would go a long way toward confirmation in my mind (not all the way, but a long way). And Town needs as much firm info as possible, since we have almost nothing right now. Having a (nearly) confirmed Coroner would be very helpful (and it would hopefully stop all this Idle/sach bickering).

Oh, and we probably should decide on who to lynch Today.

Can you say Groundhog's Day? 'Cause we're about to go through the end of last two Days again and it's not going to be pretty. As far as I can see, we've got no good suspects and little information to go on. Ugh.

[ShadowFacts]

In an effort to help myself get organized, here is the list of players, with the dead and those who have claimed and we seem to be sparing for the time being removed:

02. Diomedes
03. Kat
04. Hockey Monkey
05. CatInASuit
06. HazelNutCoffee
08. DiggitCamara
10. Blaster Master
12. nesta
14. fluiddruid
15. Pygmy Rugger
17. MadTheSwine = dotchan
18. Zoggie
19. MHaye
22. ShadowFacts


07. Hal Briston - Killed Night Two
09. Drain Bead - Lynched Day Two
11. Rysto - Killed Night Two
13. amrussell - Killed Night One - Town
16. Fretful Porpentine - Killed Night One - Wolf - Zombie
21. One and Only Wanderers - Lynched Day One - Cabal
01. Idle Thoughts – claimed Witchdoctor
20. sachertorte – claimed Coroner

So, presuming we decide to leave Sach and Idle alone for at least one more Day, then the people in green are who we have to choose from. Hope that's marginally helpful.

[Pleonast]

Note: I will be in all-day meetings Tuesday and Wednesday. So that means I won't be able to respond quickly or at all for much of the work day. The Day will end at the usual time of noon Pacific Time on Wednesday, but the Dusk message will likely be delayed.

[Idle Thoughts]

1) Pleonast has not revealed any Role information against which to compare.

Am I being whooshed here? :confused:

Of course he hasn't yet. What, do you think he'll say who they are and THEN you go "yep, he's right" and that will make you gain trust in my mind? Sorry, but if you do it the other way around, then I'll believe more.


2) I will reveal role information prior to Pleonast revealing Roles (with some execeptions if the need arises).
Nothing obtuse there.

Well, seeing will be believing. You've said you'd reveal Hal and Rysto's sides "later" too, but you have yet to do so.

Allow me to use the word obtuse as well:
Idle Thoughts is being obtuse in not realizing that if he trusts me enough to rely on Role information I have given, then he should trust me enough to talk with the person with whom I say is a good nighttime conversation.

Sorry, as I've said, I'm not going to talk with someone you merely say is "Town" until you have proven yourself to me as the Coroner.

Idle Thoughts is being obtuse in not realizing that talking with someone whose role is unknown can gain important information AND confirm his power claim.

And if I talk with someone you label as just "Town" I run the risk of talking with someone who has little or no info and thus, not being able to be confirmed. I've said this three or four times now.

Idle Thoughts is being obtuse in thinking that I would suggest people to talk to that would waste his ability.

I don't know if you're Town or Scum yet, much less the Coroner. I don't trust you fully enough yet to take your word. Is this so hard to understand? Now if you can get a few more sides right or just one role, then I'll be more apt to trust.

Just for fun, because I know everyone here loves math:
Let's assume that I knew OAOW's role because Idle Thoughts thinks I might be a Cabalist: P(One And Only Wanders) = 1.0.
Let's assume that I guessed that amrussell was telling the truth: P(amrussell) = 1.0; (really it should be approximately 12/18, but Idle Thoughts is being obtuse, so we'll set the number to 1.0 for now)
Let's assume that there are 4 werewolves and 4 Cabalists: P(Fretful Porpentine) = 4/18.
Let's assume P(Drain Bead) = 12/18;

Then the probability of guessing the sides of those four players is bounded at a bit under 15%. If we do the analysis correctly (because guessing that amrussell was telling the truth really is functionally equivalent to guessing her alignment) the probablity drops to 10%.

I disagree. I think guessing FP would have been the only guess that would have to be lucky.

DB and amrussell based on things they said (amr when he was alive and DB right after she was lynched) could have easily been guessed as Town by a Cabalist.


This is all the confirmation information that will be available to Idle Thoughts before he decides whether or not to trust me Tonight.

So you are not going to even reveal the sides of Hal or Rysto? Why not? Don't you know them?

However, by not giving out the role information, we will be better able to confirm Idle Thoughts Tomorrow.

You keep saying this, so I'll just keep saying: I'm not taking the chance of risking talking to someone I don't know to be a Witch or Freemason or Detective or Seer. So until I know that...either from you or Pleonast, I will not be talking to anyone at Night.

[Idle Thoughts]

I've a question about this, though. It's possible that the concept of Freemason recognizing each other via a "secret sign" could be interpreted just as flavor text for "Freemasons give Pleonast a name and get a response indicating if that person is another Freemason or not".

If this is the case, just knowing what a Freemason knows (the "secret sign" and any other Freemasons he or she knows) doesn't necessarily mean Idle Thoughts can use the secret sign to ID himself to Freemasons or ID other Freemasons. So...the only way Idle could "prove" his role by talking to a Freemason would be to out another Freemason? Idle would know who the other Freemasons are, but they wouldn't know who he is.

Huh? How are the other Freemasons able to ever know of another in their lot? From what I read, it's the secret sign...whatever they are, be it flavor in a post, a secret word, or some other kind of signal. Who knows? But whatever it is, why wouldn't I be able to do it too (to the other Freemasons) upon learning what it is if I talk to a dead Freemason?

[Idle Thoughts]

Anyway, I'm still happy with my vote.

[Boozahol Squid, P.I.]

I'm not entirely happy with my vote, but I'm glad I've put one out there. For those playing along at home, we've got THREE VOTES in! I'm almost positive than not all three of Zoggie, fluidruid and Idle are scum, but if this stands, any scum could swoop in in the next 48 hours, place a single vote down on any one of the three, and decide the lynch. Find a reason, some sort of reason, any reason, and just toss a vote somwhere. Poorly guided votes are a hell of a lot better than scum-guided ones, and those are the votes we'll have if the town won't vote.

This game, in case no one saw ShadowFact's chart, is a bloodbath. We don't have that many more days left . Put a vote in before you're dead.






Where's Puff Daddy when you need him? Vote or Die, bitches! :)

[CatInASuit]

Right,

Having looked through most of the players I can come to the conclusion that there are really not much in the way of any tells on anybody at the moment. This Day alone only has a couple of pages. it feels like there are 6 instead of 16 players.

The biggest problem I think is the ongoing situation between sachertorte and Idle Thoughts. As I cannot see either of these two being lynched in the short term, I'm ignoring it for the moment.

Other players. Only three others have struck me as being scummy.

DiggitCamara: Still on the list from his slip concerning half the town roles. Yes, its a slip but how serious and of what it means, Im not sure.

Fluidduid: I can see the argument placed before us by Blaster Master. Your votes do seem to follow other people's reasoning with a little extra added on by yourself

But also this post as well for consideration #617 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=9049415&postcount=617)


<snip>
But, also agreed, this doesn't make sense for scum. Was our wolf one of the wolves with a special role?
This comes under the slips marked "you townies" / "our wolf"

Explainable both ways I guess.

MHaye. I would hazard a guess that at least one of the No Lynch party would be a Cabalist trying to get OAOW off. The vote carries plausible deniability in the case he was/was not the Vigilante.

Now: If Rysto was Cabal, I would say MHaye is less likely to be a Cabal as well.
If Rysto was town, I would expect at least one Cabal to have been on the bandwagon and Mhaye had a fair amount of interaction with OAOW earlier that day, so MHaye would be a good bet for a Cabal member.

So, a question for sachertorte, given these arguments, would you be willing to reveal if Rysto was a Cabal member or not?

In order of scumminess I would put it currently as
fluiddruid
Mhaye,
DiggitCamara,
but that may change dependent on any answer I get from sachertorte.

[CatInASuit]

I'm not entirely happy with my vote, but I'm glad I've put one out there. For those playing along at home, we've got THREE VOTES in! I'm almost positive than not all three of Zoggie, fluidruid and Idle are scum, but if this stands, any scum could swoop in in the next 48 hours, place a single vote down on any one of the three, and decide the lynch. Find a reason, some sort of reason, any reason, and just toss a vote somwhere. Poorly guided votes are a hell of a lot better than scum-guided ones, and those are the votes we'll have if the town won't vote.

This game, in case no one saw ShadowFact's chart, is a bloodbath. We don't have that many more days left . Put a vote in before you're dead.

Where's Puff Daddy when you need him? Vote or Die, bitches! :)
What's really depressing is that this is Day 3 of the game with 16 people in it and we only have 2 1/2 pages of posts to digest. Only 5 people have over 5 posts and half the players have 3 posts or less.

Please get in here and give your opinions and vote.

One last thing: Idle Thoughts, sachertorte, you have reached an impasse. Instead of going after each other, is there anyone else who you consider scum in the remainder of the players.

[HazelNutCoffee]

Well, that was productive.

Luckily today is my get-off-at-10am day, so I'll post a vote by early afternoon at the latest. God only knows who I'll be voting for, though. Things seem to have come to a stalemate.

[sachertorte]

The biggest problem I think is the ongoing situation between sachertorte and Idle Thoughts. As I cannot see either of these two being lynched in the short term, I'm ignoring it for the moment.Me too :p

Fluidduid: I can see the argument placed before us by Blaster Master. Your votes do seem to follow other people's reasoning with a little extra added on by yourselffluiddruid did this in M5 as well. I know because I called her out on it. We lynched her for it. And... she was Town. I don't say this to necessarily defend fluiddruid (I still don't like that style) and she could very well be scum in this game, but it is her style.

So, a question for sachertorte, given these arguments, would you be willing to reveal if Rysto was a Cabal member or not?
Rysto is not a member of the Cabal.

[MHaye]

This has to be quick, as I'm leaving for home within the next 30 minutes. I'll be back home around 9:30pm or so but doubt whether I'll have fully registered Today until late on.

Sachertorte parcelling out his information works to get him confirmed, providing he does (as I understand he will), before Nightfall on any given day, post Roles and Sides that Pleonast will reveal in the following Dusk and Dawn.

Idle presents a whole different kettle of fish. Basically to confirm himself he needs to talk to a Witch, or get verifiable information from an investigator. Freemasons may or may not have any information that can get Idle verified. All he gets from a Mason is a list of other people the dead Mason knows are Masons. In order to use this, he has to out a Mason (that is, state that a living Player is a Mason). I think we're getting to the point where that is acceptable.

I've already made my reservations about Idle speaking to amr known. There's a very real risk that he'll get no information that can help him.

[CatInASuit]

Rysto is not a member of the Cabal.
Thanks for the information.

Given this piece of information and my previous arguments

vote MHaye

[Santo Rugger]

<snip>
Luckily today is my get-off-at-10am day<snip>

Hehehehe.



What?




Ok, ok, I'll get some real thoughts in by lunchtime...

[Santo Rugger]

<snip>Freemasons may or may not have any information that can get Idle verified. All he gets from a Mason is a list of other people the dead Mason knows are Masons. In order to use this, he has to out a Mason (that is, state that a living Player is a Mason). <snip>


I can't think of any reason why the dead Mason wouldn't be able to teach him the secret handshake, or whatever, making him, in essence, a Mason as well.

Assuming he's telling the truth, of course.

[HazelNutCoffee]

Hehehehe.



What?




Ok, ok, I'll get some real thoughts in by lunchtime...
:smack:

You know, in Korea, to call someone a wolf means they are constantly thinking dirty thoughts. Just sayin'. ;)

[Santo Rugger]

<snip>
Fluidduid: I can see the argument placed before us by Blaster Master. Your votes do seem to follow other people's reasoning with a little extra added on by yourself

But also this post as well for consideration #617 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=9049415&postcount=617)


This comes under the slips marked "you townies" / "our wolf"

Explainable both ways I guess.
<snip>

What's the other way? I'm inclined to think that, although this has been shown to not necessarily be a scum tell, it seems to be how scum have been caught in the past.

[Boozahol Squid, P.I.]

I can't think of any reason why the dead Mason wouldn't be able to teach him the secret handshake, or whatever, making him, in essence, a Mason as well.

Assuming he's telling the truth, of course.


Probably the same reason a dead witch couldn't tell him how to mix eye of newt and blood of bat, to make him an extra witch. Or a dead Vig couldn't tell him where he kept his hidden stash of guns. The power gives him information, not abilities.

[Santo Rugger]

Probably the same reason a dead witch couldn't tell him how to mix eye of newt and blood of bat, to make him an extra witch. Or a dead Vig couldn't tell him where he kept his hidden stash of guns. The power gives him information, not abilities.

That's completely different, IMHO. It's a hand sign, which can't be that hard to learn. Heck, Kramer on Seinfeld even identifies himself as member of the "Monroe" gang on accident in one episode. Teaching somebody to be a Witch or teaching them how to be a sniper (or whatever) seems like it'd be pretty hard without some hands-on-training, no pun intended. I can describe any configuration I can put my hands in with words alone, which is, again, IMHO, all you'd have to work with if you were talking to a dead guy.

[Freudian Slit]

That's completely different, IMHO. It's a hand sign, which can't be that hard to learn. Heck, Kramer on Seinfeld even identifies himself as member of the "Monroe" gang on accident in one episode. Teaching somebody to be a Witch or teaching them how to be a sniper (or whatever) seems like it'd be pretty hard without some hands-on-training, no pun intended. I can describe any configuration I can put my hands in with words alone, which is, again, IMHO, all you'd have to work with if you were talking to a dead guy.
Did you change your name, from Pygmy Rugger?

[Santo Rugger]

Did you change your name, from Pygmy Rugger?

Yes, I did. I was just coming in here to give you guys the heads up.

My college club was called the Pygmies, but now I play for Santa Fe's men's club, the Santos. The surname is still the same, so hopefully it won't cause too much confusion.

[Boozahol Squid, P.I.]

I can describe any configuration I can put my hands in with words alone, which is, again, IMHO, all you'd have to work with if you were talking to a dead guy.
While what you're saying may be true, it's still an in-game power, which I feel seperates itself from mere information. Would you think it's fair if one of the Masons got converted, and taught the sign to the Omega Wolf? Or all the wolves? But this is entirely besides the point. I'd really like to move on from the whole Idle/sache deal and focus on which person we're going to string up in the next 27 hours.


My college club was called the Pygmies, but now I play for Santa Fe's men's club, the Santos. The surname is still the same, so hopefully it won't cause too much confusion.

And all this time I was wondering what rugging was, and why you did it to those poor pygmies.

[Freudian Slit]

While what you're saying may be true, it's still an in-game power, which I feel seperates itself from mere information. Would you think it's fair if one of the Masons got converted, and taught the sign to the Omega Wolf? Or all the wolves? But this is entirely besides the point. I'd really like to move on from the whole Idle/sache deal and focus on which person we're going to string up in the next 27 hours.
It just feels like we're making stabs in the dark. I'm leaning towards changing my vote to No Lynch.

[ShadowFacts]

Dagnabbit, we have so little to go on. Nevertheless, we must soldier on...



DiggitCamara: Still on the list from his slip concerning half the town roles. Yes, its a slip but how serious and of what it means, I'm not sure.


When Diggit first made that slip, I had a couple of thoughts about it. First, it seemed certain he was not one of the roles he was confused about about. But second, that didn't mean he wasn't another Town role. There was some back and forth from others on these very points. It garnered him some quick votes at the time (which to my mind seemed a little hasty).

What I now find a tiny bit suspicious is that, despite several people mentioning The Slip Up as the reason he is on their suspicion lists (such as CIAS above), he's never come in and defended himself about it (as far as I can recall). I would think a townie would be in here trying to convince us it was all an innocent mistake and to stop suspecting him. At least, that's what I would be doing.

So, how 'bout it, Diggit? Care to explain the circumstances of your gaffe a bit more? To give you some added incentive...

Vote DiggitCamara

[CatInASuit]

Regarding the freemason handshake. Given that several people have differing ideas about whether or not it can be passed across, it should be left as an assumption whether or not it could occur.

The simple answer is we don't know. So unless Pleonast comes forward and tells us, we are stuck with maybe's. It's not going to be answered until Idle Thoughts tries it, if he ever does try it.

Now can we leave this and find some scum please.

Zoggie: Please don't no-lynch, try and find something in the previous few days that sets your scumdar off and bring it up for discussion.