Mafia: The Conspiracy: The Forbidden Thread

[Pleonast]

This thread is for outside observation on the Mafia: The Conspiracy (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=436661) game.

If you're playing in the game: STAY OUT. Since players can come back to life, I ask recently killed players to stay out of here until I confirm their final demise. Be careful about revealing important information in any case. And since some dead players can still participate, they'll have to stay out until the game is over.

Everyone else, feel free to speculate. There'll be lots of false claims and other potential treacheries, so observation should be fun. :D

[NAF1138]

This thread is for outside observation on the Mafia: The Conspiracy (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=436661) game.

If you're playing in the game: STAY OUT. Since players can come back to life, I ask recently killed players to stay out of here until I confirm their final demise. Be careful about revealing important information in any case. And since some dead players can still participate, they'll have to stay out until the game is over.

Everyone else, feel free to speculate. There'll be lots of false claims and other potential treacheries, so observation should be fun. :D


WOOHOO!

I have been looking forward to watching this game more then most of the television that is starting this week.

I am crazy excited.

[NAF1138]

oh and by the way. If anyone wants to play but didn't make it into Pleo's game, Kat and I need a sub for the off board game.

The board is here: http://psychopathgame.proboards106.com/index.cgi?board=firefly. PM me or Kat either here or on that board.

Last time I will plug the game I am running (probably).

[USCDiver]

Posting to Subscribe... this game was too complicated for my simpleton brain to grasp, but I may be available for subbing if necessary, so let's keep the information to the minimum here.

[NAF1138]

Hey, so the game has started!

It's Night so nothing interesting is likly to happen for a little while. But who knows, major points of discussion in the Firefly game were generated by people's behaviors durring the first Night.

Anyone other than USC and myself watching this thing?

[Pleonast]

Well, I'm watching. In the same sense a referee watches a game. :)

So far, it's been rather calm. Do you think Dopers are now experienced enough at these games to avoid the raving accusations? Or, since everyone is a "power" role, will everyone try to lay low?

[NAF1138]

Well, I'm watching. In the same sense a referee watches a game. :)

So far, it's been rather calm. Do you think Dopers are now experienced enough at these games to avoid the raving accusations? Or, since everyone is a "power" role, will everyone try to lay low?

That is actually what I am most interested to see. With no vanilla town, and with everyone knowing there is no vanilla town, I am wondering if the "traditional" style of game play, as we have come to know it here, will change.

I think the game won't work if everyone tries to lay low. Laid back playing and "flying under the radar" will hand the game to the scum, because the town will never get any information. So eventually that tendency will break. But my prediction is that we will have a period of more relaxed and quiet play as everyone tries to feel out what is going on.

[zuma]

Idle is on the right track, I think. They're just going to badger people into role claims day 1 anyway. A mass claim, investigators be damned, seems the way to go. I could be wrong though...

[NAF1138]

Idle is on the right track, I think. They're just going to badger people into role claims day 1 anyway. A mass claim, investigators be damned, seems the way to go. I could be wrong though...


They only thing that I can see going wrong is it taking too long to sort out the confusion of false claims. Otherwise, I too think it is a good plan.

[Pleonast]

Giving anything away, I'll say the Sides are balanced, even taking into account ploys such as limited and mass Role claims.

[USCDiver]

They only thing that I can see going wrong is it taking too long to sort out the confusion of false claims. Otherwise, I too think it is a good plan.

Pleonast has mentioned several times that not all roles will be used in the game. All the scum has to do is wait until all the townies have claimed and then either claim Freemason or one of the unused roles. Then the town is fucked.

[zuma]

The proper way to do it would be to set up as random an order as you could, or just use the player list, so scum couldn't wait until the end.

[Pleonast]

Looks like the players are starting to parse the rules carefully. I've had several PMs with questions, two general enough to put the answer in the game thread. I'm archiving all PMs on the secret site, so it'll be possible to see everything at the end of the game.

[NAF1138]

Looks like the players are starting to parse the rules carefully. I've had several PMs with questions, two general enough to put the answer in the game thread. I'm archiving all PMs on the secret site, so it'll be possible to see everything at the end of the game.


Good idea. Seeing what the players were thinking durring the game is always the most interesting thing.

[Pleonast]

Ah, looks like the voting deadline and the cold realization of what "everyone can role-claim" means has finally started some blood fights. :)

[NAF1138]

Lord this game is compelling. Nice work Pleo.

Question, I have seen this acronym: BUTTVAASTIAST
a couple of times at this point, but somehow missed the original non-acronym version of the phrase. What does it mean?

[Pleonast]

Lord this game is compelling. Nice work Pleo.

Question, I have seen this acronym: BUTTVAASTIAST
a couple of times at this point, but somehow missed the original non-acronym version of the phrase. What does it mean?Hmm, I'm not sure, either! They're keeping me busy with votes and PMs. :p

[NAF1138]

Interesting about Dio voting in red, not once but twice (once unsuccesfully). I know he knows what the vote colors are because they are the same as in Firefly (where he has voted and unvoted numerous times.) I wonder what it might mean. I don't think it is an accident.

[NAF1138]

Wow, Day 1 was exciting! I thought that Rysto's no lynch movement might have picked up enough steam to work. Shame that the boards going down put a crimp in the towns plans. Maybe they will plan better next time.

[Pleonast]

Well, too bad for One and Only Wanderers. Lynchees cannot come back from the dead, but it's better if he doesn't say much here until his Role is revealed to the Town.

I got to say my early ruling about board outages was rather prescient. :D

[Pleonast]

The first Night ended and we have two kills. And some investigation results, so the Town is completely in the dark. I wonder how they'll handle toDay.

[NAF1138]

I too find it interesting that amrussel was attacked Blaster, and I would like to hear from the coroner...but not because I think he was telling the truth.

[Pleonast]

The first Night ended and we have two kills. And some investigation results, so the Town is completely in the dark. I wonder how they'll handle toDay."is not completely in the dark" :smack:

Well, a Coroner will be easy enough to verify, eventually. At the end of toDay, everyone will see the Side of OaOW. So, if sachertorte is lying, he'll get caught, and they can lynch him on Day Three... A nice two-Day delay if he's scum.

[panamajack]

Lord this game is compelling. Nice work Pleo.

Question, I have seen this acronym: BUTTVAASTIAST
a couple of times at this point, but somehow missed the original non-acronym version of the phrase. What does it mean?


Near as I could tell,

[Bandwagonning? U?] The? Third Vote[r?] as a Scum Tell Is A Scum Tell.
[Buttering Up?]

I didn't see who actually posted it first, or if someone filled in the phrase?

It'll be interesting to see if there are multiple "lame duck" role claims that can pile up while waiting for results, and if the scum will use it to their advantage.

[USCDiver]

Bringing Up The Third Vote As A Scum Tell Is A Scum Tell

[NAF1138]

Bringing Up The Third Vote As A Scum Tell Is A Scum Tell

Thanks. I had figured out that it related to the whole third vote thing, but couldn't for the life of me figure out the exact wording. It was driving me nuts.

BTW we need another sub in the firefly game. The newbies keep dropping out.

If anyone over here wants to join up PM me or Kat.

[Pleonast]

From post 684 in the game thread: (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=9056471&postcount=684)It has crossed my mind that the Coroner is one of the roles not used in the game. Pleonast made the slow reveal a big part of the game dynamic, and to put in a player that can circumvent the system like that....well, I don't think it would be something I would do as a Moderator of this game. However, I am willing to wait until Sachertorte is wrong before lynching him, because if he IS a real Coroner, then his information is extremely helpful and we need to keep him around.I can't really respond there, but I want to describe my thinking.

The slow release of Side info hinders the Town and makes it easier for false claimers. And the slow release of the Role hinders the scum sides, since it takes them a while to know when they've hit someone important. The Coroner Role was created to circumvent the slow release, but at a cost: both Town and scum will get the information early. To get this information out reliably, a Coroner will have to claim. And then be vulnerable to being targeted.

When/if a Coroner is confirmed, the Town may come to rely on the instant information reveal, only to have it taken away again. There's only a limited amount of protective Roles in this game, not everyone with an important Power can be saved.

Edit: fixed url.

[USCDiver]

Do we get to have an Idle Thoughts freak out now?

[Pleonast]

Do we get to have an Idle Thoughts freak out now?It's now or never.

Any observers want to hazard a guess on the truthfulness of either sachertorte or Idle?

[NAF1138]

It's now or never.

Any observers want to hazard a guess on the truthfulness of either sachertorte or Idle?

My guess would be that sach is telling the truth and Idle isn't buying it, but is also town.

This is based entierly on what I know about how they play, not on analysis of what they are actually saying. (I am starting to think that what people actually say in these games is a distraction, at best, and more frequently a full blown con job.)

Because it doesn't make sense for sach to not reveal more, but it is not out of character for him to hold that info back, just in case. And it is totally within Idle's townie character to attack him for such behavior.

[USCDiver]

I don't think Idle is the Witchdoctor, but I'll admit I can't read his posts. All he does is quote other players and make a one sentence comment after each quote. It's annoying.

[USCDiver]

Ah, here we go with the ALL CAPS!! from Idle Thoughts. And he's bitching about sachertorte posting his Role PM and saying it's AGAINST THE RULES!! even though he apparently didn't read the post from Pleonast saying it was OK.

[Drain Bead]

Well, that blows. I had a damn fine role in that game and got screwed by one vote.

If I had to guess, I'd say that Kat is scum. Her reasons for voting me (and not Idle, Rysto, or Zoggie, who "me tooed" me TWICE) were as weak as American beer.

If anyone wants to know what little I know, PM me and I'll respond.

[Pleonast]

Yeah, sorry you missed the deadline. One and Only Wanderers wasn't happen with his last-minute lynch either. It's the nature of the game, and with everyone being able to make role claims, a hard cut off is the only practical way to do it.

What do you think of sach and Idle?

[Drain Bead]

Yeah, sorry you missed the deadline. One and Only Wanderers wasn't happen with his last-minute lynch either. It's the nature of the game, and with everyone being able to make role claims, a hard cut off is the only practical way to do it.

What do you think of sach and Idle?

I was relatively sure that sach was town due to the lack of counterclaim, but the disappearance and outright refusal to give one tiny piece of info made him very suspicious. I wanted to be 100% sure. I figured that I was also breadcrumbing my role quite a bit in there, but there are either some really bad players in there or the scum saw an opening in the last couple of days because the vote was split up. I'm not sure about Idle, but my guess up until he claimed was Freemason. After he claimed and sach countered, I honestly didn't know what to think. They BOTH started looking scummy to me. Sach's "new info" was entirely too convenient after the claim. I still don't understand why you wouldn't get that out there immediately, in your original claim. I've always been a supporter of the idea that the town should have as much info as possible. Once you've already roleclaimed, what does it help to hold onto that piece of info?

I definitely prefer the majority rule of voting rather than the plurality. Of all the players in that game, it took five votes to lynch? Ouch.

[Drain Bead]

Also...does anyone want to help me design/mod a Battlestar Galactica themed mafia game? I have a basic framework set up, but would like some help designing roles and balancing.

[Pleonast]

I definitely prefer the majority rule of voting rather than the plurality. Of all the players in that game, it took five votes to lynch? Ouch.I went with plurality because there's four Sides. It's quite possible for the Town to be less than a majority and still not be game over. So plurality voting is needed to give the Town a chance in that case, otherwise it's too easy for scum to stall the lynch.

I put the tie-vote equals no lynch rule to force an actual decision, plus I wanted to keep a fixed Day/Night schedule.

Edit: I can help with the balancing. Pm or email me what you have, if you like.

[NAF1138]

Also...does anyone want to help me design/mod a Battlestar Galactica themed mafia game? I have a basic framework set up, but would like some help designing roles and balancing.
I will be happy to look at stuff too if you like. But I would most likely want to play in that game, so don't send me anything you think might be game breaking. But I can help give general advice on balance etc.

Also, be sure to PM JSexton, Sach and probably MtgMan over on the other boards and ask for help. JSexton helped with the Firefly game a whole lot. Before he joined the design process it was an overly complex unbalanced mess. He turned it into the very tightly balanced game it is now; still managing to keep the foundation that Kat and I had worked on in place. It is the same game that we developed, but now it works (rather well I think, when the Mods aren't bungling it up).

Sach was a big help to us as well and helped a lot in making sure our thoughts were clearly defined and that the loopholes were all tightened up.

MtgMan didn't help with our game, but he really seems to know what he is doing when it comes to game mechanics.

[USCDiver]

Pleonast, if a player's alignment is Cabal, what new 'role' information does the town get on the third Day reveal?

[Pleonast]

The Role will be revealed. The Cabal Side has only one Role, so it'll be Cabalist.

The delayed Role reveal (as opposed to the delayed Side reveal) hurts scum more than it hurts Town.

[USCDiver]

Well which faction are we calling scum in this game? Seems like there's several different anti-town groups.

[Pleonast]

I use scum to me all the non-Town Sides: Wolves, Undead, Cabal.

[Pleonast]

Two more dead on Night Two. What will the conversation focus on ToDay? I'm eager to see what Idle and sach do, myself.

[Pleonast]

I'm eager to see what Idle and sach do, myself.Apparently they bicker endlessly. :p

The Town is working itself towards another clueless speed-lynch. I don't think anyone wants to lynch sach or Idle, and yet discussion of lynch options is minimal.

[Stanislaus]

The more I read, the more I think Idle is scum manipulating the town into discussing irrelevancies. But man, they're making it hard on themselves. The percentage of players actually posting is tiny; they've got no strategy to avoid the claim-claim-lynch pattern they've set up for themselves; they're not trying to root out scum.

I know there are up to 3 investigator roles who want to keep out of sight and who should be able to swing things in town's favour if they build up enough info, and the Vicar will want to stay alive as long as possible too, but other roles need to get involved.

[Pleonast]

I need a sub. First to PM me gets the spot.

[Pleonast]

I need a sub. First to PM me gets the spot.And dotchan has graciously stepped in for MadTheSwine.

[Stanislaus]

I'd love to know how the various scum factions think they're doing. From out here it looks like the town is just too badly disorganised - but both the Wolves and the Cabal are one down early in the game. Assuming none of our unknown dead are Undead, that's the faction most clearly in the lead.

And in fact, if we do have Witches + Seer + Detective the town could be getting up to three investigations per night (although the Detective presumably won't get a result each night, and will tend to get the same Wolf in any case). If so, a Day 5/6 claim by Witches & Seer could flip things in the town's favour.

[ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]

I admit that I haven't been following the game, but I peek at it now and then. This is the first time the Forbidden thread has bubbled up on MPSIMS for me, so I'm subscribing. Yeah, yeah, I could've searched for it. But this is more spontaneous and exciting. :p

[Stanislaus]

It's almost as difficult to watch this game as it is to play it, so people don't comment very much. Plus, dead people are hanging on, hoping that they've been Witchdoctored - Hal and Rysto, for example, won't want to open this thread yet.

[Pleonast]

And fluiddruid got lynched. The Town is not particularly well focused.

[USCDiver]

I've been in Vegas all week. Anyone want to summarize the last two Days/Nights for me?

[Stanislaus]

OK, I'll give it a go:

Short version: The Town struggle to handle the fact that every player in danger of being lynched will roleclaim. Protectively unvoting leads to the near accidental lynching of Drain Bead, later confirmed as Town. The claimed Coroner and claimed Witchdoctor have a 2 Day argument which achieves little. Hal Briston and Rysto die during Night 2. The first Zombie claws her way out of the grave.

Long version:

Day 2: Fretful Porpentine and I wake up dead. Sachertorte, who claimed Coroner on Day 1, announces the following: OAOW = Cabal; AMR = Town; Fretful = Wolf. Some people rejoice, only to be reminded that Sach is not confirmed and that this info is thus not reliable. It is also noted that Sach has only provided Sides when the Coroner should be aware of Roles as well. This causes some concern, because it's obviously easier for a false Coroner to guess Side. Sach is asked many times to give Role info. He replies that he's given enough info to prove himself, and handing out Role info will help scum.

This provokes quite a bit of debate, and leads to votes flying around between the two factions. Idle Thoughts, who was vociferously pressuring Sach to reveal Role info, finds he has 5 votes against him and claims Witchdoctor. This is not immediately believed, so Idle then announces that he has a secret power, which he will reveal tomorrow if he's still in danger. Sachertorte now writes a long series of posts about his reasoning behind not handing out Role info early, his general suspicions and some strategy. This culminates in his astonishing claim: as Coroner, he knows that this game involves a recruitment mechanic. Apparently it works in a manner similar to Witchdoctor protection: victim dies at Night and comes back a Day later - but has now been recruited. The Coroner, however, can recognise the difference.

Sach accuses Idle of claiming Witchdoctor in order to set up a recruitment; the idea being that he will be able to announce the imminent resurrection of his victim, and thus confirm himself. The town now has two players who are a)accusing each other and b) claiming hidden powers and game mechanics. Initially, a number of players switch their votes to Idle. Idle now comes back in and reveals his hidden powers - he can, one time, talk to the dead and learn all they know. For example, he could speak to a dead Witch and learn all their investigations to date, as well as the identity of other witches. Now people start to unvote Idle, admitting they don't really know who to vote for.

Time runs out, no-one has any real idea about who to vote for, and Drain Bead gets lynched almost by default.

Night 2: OAOW confirmed as Cabal; Hal Briston and Rysto killed; AMR confirmed Town; Fretful Porpentine confirmed Wolf - and Zombie-fied!

Day 3: This day is much quieter, and mainly taken up by a prolonged conversation between Sach and Idle, both suspicious of the other. Idle agitates strongly for Role info, so that he can confirm himself using his special power. Sach disagrees that this is worthwhile. Other posters point out that the vote-roleclaim-unvote-new vote-new roleclaim is getting the town nowhere and outing power Roles unnecessarily. However, no satisfactory solution is raised. The story of this Day is that the town is paralysed by the lack of information, and by the complex interactions of the rules which make it difficult to be sure what any information actually implies.

Very late in the day, there is a flurry of voting, fluiddruid and DiggitCamara getting into a tie on 3 votes each. There is some concern that the bar for being lynched is so low. Sach reveals that Rysto and Hal Briston are both Town, that Fretful was a plain Wolf, and that he will keep AMR's Role secret.

The day ends in a fluiddruid lynch, with 5 votes.

Night 3: OAOW's Role is predictably confirmed as Cabalist. Drain Bead is announced to be Town.

AMR, despite being dead, refuses to let go and move on. Can you tell?

[Pleonast]

Just to give a little insight into what the scum Sides have been thinking: they're nearly as disorganized as the Town. Their information is almost as limited as the Town's, or worse for the Undead. There's been some bits of brilliant strategizing, too. The game is wide open for any Side to win at this point.

[Pleonast]

Kat and nesta get it on Night Three. I wish I could say more...

[zuma]

Town cruises to victory yet again. I miss playing here, but really, scum need to have a chance... just a little chance...

[Pleonast]

Town cruises to victory yet again. I miss playing here, but really, scum need to have a chance... just a little chance...It's not over yet. But the Town is in a good position. They've been very lucky with the Night deaths so far.

[zuma]

Well, I'll hold out hope that scum has a chance. The recent history of dope mafia games is that town always, always wins. I'd like to play again, but I'll wait until the impossible happens.. scum wins two in a row.

[Pleonast]

I tried to balance the Sides so that each had about an equal chance to win. But, as these games go, I think the end result comes down to who got killed "randomly". The Town has been very lucky and only one real power role has been lost. The scum have mostly been targeting each other. :smack: Rather amazing, actually.

But it's not quite over. Routing out the last scum or two can be tricky.

[ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]

Can someone pretty please PM me the url to the Firefly game? I had to delete my browser history/cookies because of work, and now I can't remember the exact url and I can't find my sign-up email... :(

[Pleonast]

Sorry, Cookies, I don't have a link. Hope you found it.

Anyone following the mess of claims? Will be interesting to see how the vote ends up. I expect a flurry of vote switches in the final minutes of the Day. :D

[tirial]

Following it very closely indeed - I want to see if Cat(inaSuit) ends up strung up, whether Blastermaster's logic works out, and what the witches do. The known wolf doesn't seem to be defending himself very hard either...

I do find it amusing that for Mafia III I spent the whole game pointing out I was female - now Cat has the opposite problem here :)

[Pleonast]

And MHaye gets lynched, despite self-proclaimed Necromancer CatInASuit talking scum strategy out in the open. Tonight will be an exciting WIFOM double-think.

[Pleonast]

Only one kill during Night Four: Idle Thoughts. What will the Town do without him? :D

Scum are still not out of the game. It's much closer than what it may appear. I shouldn't say any more.

Anyone with less than perfect knowledge want to put odds on the different Sides?

[Pleonast]

The Town lynches CatInASuit.

The game is still up for grabs.

[Pleonast]

And now we're to the first lynch or lose. The Undead will win on Night 6 (1 Necro + 5 Zombies vs 6 other players) unless the Necro is lynched or Wolf-killed or the Vicar finally manages to block a Zombification. Choosing not to lynch is an option, to give the Witches another investigation, but that means they can't protect themselves from the Wolves.

It will be interesting to see what they decide.

[Hockey Monkey]

What is this doing on page 3??? Pleo, great game you devised here. I wish I had been able to find another wolf, but I think I did the best I could with what I had to work with.

I'm going to be watching very closely to see how it plays out.

[storyteller0910]

I have no perfect knowledge, but I am wondering why it is that Blaster Master tells everyone his extremely elaborate plan, gets everyone to go along with it while explicitly promising to reveal all the following Morning, and now it's Morning and he's posted half a dozen times and not mentioning his own role at all.

Interesting.

ETA - I think it's awesome and appropriate that my 1,000th post, this one, is expressing suspicion of Blaster Master in a Mafia game.

[storyteller0910]

...and once again I demonstrate that I don't know what I'm talking about.

[Pleonast]

Well, BlaM just role-claimed as the third Witch, and Dio will confirm.

This thread keeps dropping because those who were in it really can't post much. That's one disadvantage of having such limited information release. I do like this rules set and up to try it again sometime, probably off-SDMB. Secret powers can be tweaked or removed to keep it fresh, but the core rules are fairly well-balanced. Cabal does need either increased numbers or extra powers; they're why I put in Secret Powers in the first place.

[Hockey Monkey]

I had that one figured out. I'm not sure whether or not to believe Rugger. And I anxiously await HazelNutCoffee's role claim. I think it will be a big fat lie. Money on Zoggie as the Necromancer.

[CatInASuit]

Hi all,

I guess I get to post in this one now and annoy more people :D .

Today should be interesting as to how the town goes about finding the necro.

And oh look, I was right about Blaster Master as well.

Out of curiousity from the peanut gallery, did anyone believe my necro claim and power?

[Hockey Monkey]

No, but I was unwilling to take the chance. Stranger things have happened. Sometimes a scum will tell the truth because he won't be believed. Too bad your secret Idle cursing was exposed AND negated. That would have been fun to watch.

[CatInASuit]

Too bad your secret Idle cursing was exposed AND negated. That would have been fun to watch.

I was hoping. Imagine an entire day of Idle Thoughts telling the town he is also town.

Yes, Idle Thoughts, we still think you are great at defending your position. Loudly and strongly. :p

[Idle Thoughts]

Why, oh why, can't anyone see that ShadowFacts and Zoggie (both of whom I was immediatly suspicious of all the way back to Day One) are obvious scum? :p

[Idle Thoughts]

Actually, the last two games (this one and the one going on on my boards), I haven't really done anything loud. Strong maybe, but I guess I'm an aggressive defense and offense player. :p But loud? Hehe.

Last time I typed in large font (non-joking) was game four, the pirates one. Since then I've done it once in Five (the cult) and once in seven (Firefly), but both were jokingly.

I don't think I did it at all in this game... *shrugs*

But yes, whatever shall they do without me? :) Without me there to show them all the way, they're as good as toast. They are truly lost now that I'm dead. Weep for them. Hahaha. Yeah right. I'm nobody. I don't even think I'm good at the game.

Time for a long break from it...but I can't wait to watch the future ones. :)

[ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]

I wish I had the bandwidth to have followed this game at all, it sounds like it was much fun.

[Idle Thoughts]

Wish you could have been in it, Fanny. :p

[Pleonast]

And we have two Role-claims: Zoggie is a Magician and HazelNutCoffee is Vigilante. But which (or neither) is the Necromancer? Hmmm...

[Pleonast]

Claims are a flying. Surely someone would like to post their guesses about who's pulling who's chain.

[storyteller0910]

Well, thanks to the wonders of extracurricular communication, I already know the truth of one player's claim. Based on what I do know, I'm guessing Zoggie is the Necro, Hazel is a Wolf who also has an extra kill, and Santos is a Wolf

[Idle Thoughts]

I think Diggit might be lying, actually.

The boards that everyone is using are my own...the ones I used for a faction in the Asylum Lane game. And the other boards (the one that Pleo is NOT using) is being used by NAF for the current game on my main boards.

Hence, everyone knew the name/location of the boards Pleo is now using (as I've posted them at the end of my game in Asylum Lane).

Hence, I don't think the fact that Diggit knew the address of it is anything that confirms him.

I could be wrong though. Santos certainly is seeming to act like he's anti-Town...but that doesn't mean Diggit also isn't.

[CatInASuit]

I really can't comment on people's roles and claims here.

But then you did give me the keys of the forbidden vault of knowledge, Pleonast :D

[Idle Thoughts]

Well I see Diggit brought up the fact I mentioned in my last post. Interesting.
So really--like I said earlier--to me, someone knowing the boards address doesn't really prove or disprove anything. :p

[ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]

Anyone know what the waiting list and/or schedule for games lined up after Conspiracy looks like here on The Dope?

[Pleonast]

I don't know the schedule, but I believe SkipMagic has the queue. Try PMing him.

[Hockey Monkey]

Don't No Lynch! Please don't! You know the identity of 2 scum fer cryin out loud!

[Pleonast]

If the Town lynches someone not the Necromancer and then the Wolves kill someone not the Necromancer, the Undead will win. Thus, if the Town lynches wrong, they're effectively letting the Wolves decide who wins. By not lynching, the Undead cannot win toNight, unless there's two kills (neither of which are the Necro). So it's a matter of balancing odds: how sure are you of the Necro's identity vs likelihood of two bad kills.

[storyteller0910]

This endgame is interesting, as it suggests a characteristic of the ruleset that was not intuitively obvious at the outset. Namely, that even though the powers and numbers of players appear to be balanced to allow all four factions a roughly equal chance of winning, in practice the town appears to have virtually no chance of winning this setup.

This is because of a philosophy that Cat first expressed and under which at least one current scum player is operating - namely, that each scum group would rather see another scum group win than the town. In theory, each of the four factions shouldn't care who wins beyond: (1) my team won; or (2) my team didn't. Since that's not the case, though, if a scum group becomes satisfied that their own chances of winning have vanished, they will collaborate with other scum groups to ensure that the town, at least, doesn't win.

I don't see how the town can have a prayer against that sort of collaboration - if the scum groups are working together to ensure that the town doesn't win no matter what, they will succeed, because they'll have both numerical and informational advantages.

[Idle Thoughts]

I seem to remember Fluid being on the list somewhere for a mafia game here...

[storyteller0910]

Just a quick PSA -

Sign-ups for a new Blade Runner-themed game are now open over at Idle Thoughts' board. The link to the intro and sign-up page is:

http://psychopathgame.proboards106.com/index.cgi?board=temp&action=display&thread=1194382217

[ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]

SkipMagic's PM box is full. :(

[CatInASuit]

This endgame is interesting, as it suggests a characteristic of the ruleset that was not intuitively obvious at the outset. Namely, that even though the powers and numbers of players appear to be balanced to allow all four factions a roughly equal chance of winning, in practice the town appears to have virtually no chance of winning this setup.

This is because of a philosophy that Cat first expressed and under which at least one current scum player is operating - namely, that each scum group would rather see another scum group win than the town. In theory, each of the four factions shouldn't care who wins beyond: (1) my team won; or (2) my team didn't. Since that's not the case, though, if a scum group becomes satisfied that their own chances of winning have vanished, they will collaborate with other scum groups to ensure that the town, at least, doesn't win.

I don't see how the town can have a prayer against that sort of collaboration - if the scum groups are working together to ensure that the town doesn't win no matter what, they will succeed, because they'll have both numerical and informational advantages.
I disagree with the point of view that the town would have no chance in this set up. My philosophy of any scum win over a town win only works if the scum do work together. But the same goes for any of the three sides working against the fourth. Banding together is only going to work when the sides are roughly equal in power. When diminished as the scum ranks were, then the town can stand a much greater chance on its own.

The best way that the scum could have won this game and have any scum win would be for all the scum to claim as scum on Day 1 and let the town figure out who to kill while the scum night killed and the Cabal blocked. At that rate the attrition of one scum per day for two town at night would soon have led to the scum being able to lynch townies during the day.

[Pleonast]

Multiple Sides can work together and it may be beneficial for them to do so at any given point. But an alliance will only be temporary because of the temptation to cheat your allies and increase your chance of winning at the expense of theirs. We'll see how that works out toNight.

The Secret Powers also fit into this, with respect to an everyone-claims early in the game and for alliances. The Secret Powers lets a Side cheat with plausible deniability. If the scum claimed honestly, the Town would have easy lynches, but there'd be no cross-fire, at least until the Town was severely weakened. If the scum claimed as Town, there'd be cross-fire from the start.

[Pleonast]

Well, with a No Lynch, the Town virtually has it wrapped up, unless the Witches do something foolish. I can't end it though until the Necromancer is dead, one way or another.

[Pleonast]

Diomedes got killed, and another Zombie is raised. Got to hand it to the Necromancer for having completely out-guessed the Vicar so far. Any death that's not the Necro will now win the game for the Undead (or another Zombie, if there's no more kills).

I'm sure the Town thinks they have it wrapped up, but let's see if they lynch the actual Necro toDay.

[Boozahol Squid, P.I.]

Diomedes got killed, and another Zombie is raised. Got to hand it to the Necromancer for having completely out-guessed the Vicar so far. Any death that's not the Necro will now win the game for the Undead (or another Zombie, if there's no more kills).

I'm sure the Town thinks they have it wrapped up, but let's see if they lynch the actual Necro toDay.


What, I'm dead? Spoooooooooooky.

We investigated Hazel last night, and it turns out the Wolves actually were going along with Cat's panscum alliance idea.

I think we'll have it wrapped up, unless Santo is a very devious Necro with amazing PM-faking abilities. I did really like Hazel's fake-claim though.

Only thing I'm really wondering is what Shadow's role turned out to be.

[CatInASuit]

Hey Dio, nice to see you join us.

What's wrong with my pan-scum alliance idea. The town wins far too often to be allowed to get away with it.

The most important thing of course is that Kat has now been zombied and can wander around in the cheerleader outfit. :p

All other details are minor.

[Idle Thoughts]

I think Town is wrong.

I REALLY think that it's bad/stupid/dangerous to let ShadowFacts by without a roleclaim.


I think that SF is the wolf leader...NOT Pygmy.

I think that Pygmy is the Necro.

I think the last wolf (along side SF) is Hazel.

I think that Zoggie is either:

1. The last Cabal or
2. Telling the truth about being the Magician.

I'm leaning very heavy toward it being one before two.





I was blocked the Night that Kat and Nesta (the "last" two Cabal) died. If they were both dead, who did the blocking? Or does the block go through even though they're killed?

I dunnnooooo. I don't like it.

I think it's all as I put it above and I think that lynching Zoggie here is a bad mistake since I don't think she's the Necro.

I could be majorly wrong and probably am. But man it just feels wrong.

[Pleonast]

Idle, actions are all resolved simultaneously at the end of the Night/Day they take place. So your block doesn't mean there's still a Cabalist left.

The Town will eventually realize that they have a WIFOM situation and they don't know who the Necro is.

[CatInASuit]

Given that this game is ending on Monday and most people are not really around for the weekend, I predict a mass panic set of vote/unvote/vote again on Monday as people try to decipher the WIFOM.

It is obvious which way Blaster Master is thinking. The questions are,
Can he persuade the rest of the town to follow him?
Did the scum anticipate him?
And, of course, is he even right?

;)

[Idle Thoughts]

Okay.

Still...it all feels wrong to me.

I guess that's just from thinking so strongly that ShadowFacts has GOT to be scum. And since she was read as "Town", she MUST be the head Wolf.

And if she's the head Wolf, Pygmy can't be.

However Hazel is a wolf and I doubt there's three left..so I'd say the two are Hazel and SF with Pygmy being the Necro.

(Heck, the Necro could have a secret power too. Maybe it's the ability to read like a living person once (Town) or twice and not raise the dead on one or two Nights---maybe SF could be it too.)

[storyteller0910]

Pleo - is there something here that I don't get? Some secret power still to come into play? Because given what I know, it looks pretty well over.

[Pleonast]

Pleo - is there something here that I don't get? Some secret power still to come into play? Because given what I know, it looks pretty well over.Answered in PM. Basically, the Town could choose wrong, and to be fair to the scum, they need to be given that chance.

[Boozahol Squid, P.I.]

Okay.

Still...it all feels wrong to me.

I guess that's just from thinking so strongly that ShadowFacts has GOT to be scum. And since she was read as "Town", she MUST be the head Wolf.

And if she's the head Wolf, Pygmy can't be.

However Hazel is a wolf and I doubt there's three left..so I'd say the two are Hazel and SF with Pygmy being the Necro.

(Heck, the Necro could have a secret power too. Maybe it's the ability to read like a living person once (Town) or twice and not raise the dead on one or two Nights---maybe SF could be it too.)


I really don't see how you figure. If Pygmy was the necro, he would have just let Zoggie swing yesterday, and taken his win last night. He's definitely not town, so that pretty much leaves him as a wolf. Hazel is the other wolf, and the alpha-wolf at that (because she was investigated as wolf).

I know you desperately want your original assessment of both Shadow and Zoggie to be right, but unless there's a Cabalist out there, it just doesn't make sense. And if there's a Cabalist out there, the town's already lost.

[storyteller0910]

I will say that I don't understand why Shadow Facts is being coy with his/her role reveal right now. The game is all but over. Refusing to role claim now, even when directly asked by the town, could give someone an opening to convince the town to do something stupid.

[Boozahol Squid, P.I.]

I will say that I don't understand why Shadow Facts is being coy with his/her role reveal right now. The game is all but over. Refusing to role claim now, even when directly asked by the town, could give someone an opening to convince the town to do something stupid.

Seriously. If it wasn't for the fact that he was investigated as town, I'd be in Idle's camp, calling for his head. What possible good could it do to hold out at this point?

[Idle Thoughts]

I know you desperately want your original assessment of both Shadow and Zoggie to be right, but unless there's a Cabalist out there, it just doesn't make sense. And if there's a Cabalist out there, the town's already lost.

Bolding mine.

Actually, I'd be happy with just one of them being right/scum. :D Means I'm maybe not as sucky at this game as I think I am ('twixt this game and the one on my boards---the censors on there have gotten to me. I'm now using that word instead of between naturally. :smack: )

[Idle Thoughts]

Really seems to me that ShadowFacts is just rubbing it in the noses of Town now. Look at the way she smiles in that post and how she words it (the one made to HNC)!

It looks (or at seems) so obvious that something is up. Why isn't Town putting more pressure on for a claim, I wonder?

[storyteller0910]

Really seems to me that ShadowFacts is just rubbing it in the noses of Town now. Look at the way she smiles in that post and how she words it (the one made to HNC)!

It looks (or at seems) so obvious that something is up. Why isn't Town putting more pressure on for a claim, I wonder?

Idle, I kind of think that you've decided she's a duck, so everything she says sounds like a quack. I don't see anything particularly odd about the way she worded her response to Hazel, which basically said only that she wasn't going to respond to prodding from wolves. What are you seeing?

[Idle Thoughts]

The long space and then the :D smile?

What would be the reason for that?

[Boozahol Squid, P.I.]

The long space and then the :D smile?

What would be the reason for that?

To emphasize the irony of the town buying anything Santo says?

[Boozahol Squid, P.I.]

Interesting point: if Shadow turns out to be town, then on Day two, the only lynch of a Townie, only Townies were voted for.

[CatInASuit]

Really seems to me that ShadowFacts is just rubbing it in the noses of Town now. Look at the way she smiles in that post and how she words it (the one made to HNC)!

It looks (or at seems) so obvious that something is up. Why isn't Town putting more pressure on for a claim, I wonder?
Idle Thoughts: You are doing it again. Your preconceptions are getting in the way of the facts.

ShadowFacts has been investigated as town and with 3 scum left it is obvious who the scum are.

You have to read through what other players have said about people and be prepared to balance the arguments and change your mind, if what they say contradicts what you think.

Side example: Compare my actions on Day 1 of Firefly with my actions for every other day. Day 1 got me lynched because I quacked like a scum.

[Idle Thoughts]

I don't get your point? You looked suspicious. Not only to me but to many others as well. I wasn't the only one saying you looked scummy in that game. Many were and over a long period of time. Yeah, I was the strongest..but that didn't even start until Day Two and after. You DID LOOK suspicious. More so than anyone else. In fact, I have to say even knowing you were Town, you had to have been the scummiest Townie I've ever seen so far in my history of playing the game. :p

You seem quick to say "You did it before and you're doing it again." I don't see how what I'm doing is what you're saying it is. I just find suspicious those who seemingly act it. All thrugh the game SF was showing very anti-Town behavior. I even pointed it out. Even now, she's showing anti-Town behavior not revealing her role at this point. Now she may be scum or she may really not be. I don't know. I could be wrong. Very easily. But that doesn't change the fact or my opinion that she seems to be acting more suspicious than anyone else.

Me, I was right on DB in FF. And Zoggie as scum in this game. And fluid in MIII. And NAF in MIV. All of those people were scum that I called wayyyyy early on.

As far as I can see, I've been right on some and wrong on some with my way of playing so far. The wrong ones were: SnakesCatLady, yourself, and possibly/probaby ShadowFacts.

How is that different from any other person who plays this game? People get others wrong when they're Town. That's just how the game goes. It's something that can't be helped. Suspicions build up over time and yeah, they do tend to cement sometimes in ones head. But that's a part of the game. Is it right or wrong? I dunno. But it's human nature, I feel.

[CatInASuit]

In fact, I have to say even knowing you were Town, you had to have been the scummiest Townie I've ever seen so far in my history of playing the game. :p

Umm, thanks I think ;) Although if you check my play, most people did not like my play from Day 1 ie. chasing down role claims and my thoughts on names in the games from Day 1. Although strangely, people seemed to get upset when I changed my mind on it. You know, I get labelled scummy for taking a more townie view. Go figure.


You seem quick to say "You did it before and you're doing it again." I don't see how what I'm doing is what you're saying it is. I just find suspicious those who seemingly act it. All thrugh the game SF was showing very anti-Town behavior. I even pointed it out. Even now, she's showing anti-Town behavior not revealing her role at this point. Now she may be scum or she may really not be. I don't know. I could be wrong. Very easily. But that doesn't change the fact or my opinion that she seems to be acting more suspicious than anyone else.

She may be showing what might be described as anti-town behaviour. But she has been confirmed as town by the Witches and she cannot be a scum as the remaining three have identified themselves. The facts should always be accounted for by your thoughts. You have to be prepared to accept that the person you consider suspicious is town regardless of your personal feelings towards them.


Me, I was right on DB in FF. And Zoggie as scum in this game. And fluid in MIII. And NAF in MIV. All of those people were scum that I called wayyyyy early on.

As far as I can see, I've been right on some and wrong on some with my way of playing so far. The wrong ones were: SnakesCatLady, yourself, and possibly/probaby ShadowFacts.

How is that different from any other person who plays this game? People get others wrong when they're Town. That's just how the game goes. It's something that can't be helped. Suspicions build up over time and yeah, they do tend to cement sometimes in ones head. But that's a part of the game. Is it right or wrong? I dunno. But it's human nature, I feel.
Everyone has their own successes and failures in spotting scum and town. I will hasten to add that looking back on the reasons for my choices of player roles in the game. I was horribly, horribly wrong on 99% of them.

I managed to get Blaster Master in this game and that is about it, and he more or less hit me over the head with that one.

The main problem is that building up suspicion can be useful, but if it quacks like a duck on Day1, neighs like a horse on Day 2 and moos like a cow on Day 3, what is it? Suspicions are good, but they have to fit the available facts. If they don't they will not help you or the town.

[Idle Thoughts]

She may be showing what might be described as anti-town behaviour. But she has been confirmed as town by the Witches and she cannot be a scum as the remaining three have identified themselves.

How so? We have claims of two Wolves..that's two, and there's one Necro..that's three. But I think it's likely there's still one more Cabalist left. That would be four.


Everyone has their own successes and failures in spotting scum and town. I will hasten to add that looking back on the reasons for my choices of player roles in the game. I was horribly, horribly wrong on 99% of them.

I managed to get Blaster Master in this game and that is about it, and he more or less hit me over the head with that one.

The main problem is that building up suspicion can be useful, but if it quacks like a duck on Day1, neighs like a horse on Day 2 and moos like a cow on Day 3, what is it? Suspicions are good, but they have to fit the available facts. If they don't they will not help you or the town.

I agree with you.

[CatInASuit]

How so? We have claims of two Wolves..that's two, and there's one Necro..that's three. But I think it's likely there's still one more Cabalist left. That would be four.

There are no more Cabal, and the Witches know this.

How they know this, well I will leave the Witches to say.

[Boozahol Squid, P.I.]

The Witches are pretty positive that the Cabal is all gone. I don't really want to get very much into how we know, but I think the matter was actually discussed once, or at least strongly alluded to, in the game thread.
Without a Cabal, and knowing Zoggie is scum, and Pleo and Hazel are definitely Wolves, I think you've got to give up the hunt against Shadow. Unless you think Shadow's a third wolf (he can't be an additional Undead, because the game would have ended this Morning if he was), he has to be town.
But you did call Zoggie earlyas scum in the game, so good job on that. Then again, so did I. ;)

[CatInASuit]

The Witches are pretty positive that the Cabal is all gone. I don't really want to get very much into how we know, but I think the matter was actually discussed once, or at least strongly alluded to, in the game thread.
Without a Cabal, and knowing Zoggie is scum, and Pleo and Hazel are definitely Wolves, I think you've got to give up the hunt against Shadow. Unless you think Shadow's a third wolf (he can't be an additional Undead, because the game would have ended this Morning if he was), he has to be town.
But you did call Zoggie earlyas scum in the game, so good job on that. Then again, so did I. ;)
Pleo's a WOLF! :eek:

Does that mean that the scum wins :p

[Idle Thoughts]

Hey, if SF isn't scum at all, that's fine. I'm probably wrong.

But again, strange things just seem to be afoot. Like Zoggie right now. To me it seems like she's a bit too eager to end Day and asap. Also too quick to just seemingly give up and call it a loss. Those two posts in a row just read like "ohhh, come on..we've almost got them" posts.

Maybe it's just me. I guess it is.

[Boozahol Squid, P.I.]

Pleo's a WOLF! :eek:

Does that mean that the scum wins :p


:smack:
Pleo, Santo (nee Pygmy)... what's the difference? They're all scum! String up the mod!

[Boozahol Squid, P.I.]

Hey, if SF isn't scum at all, that's fine. I'm probably wrong.

But again, strange things just seem to be afoot. Like Zoggie right now. To me it seems like she's a bit too eager to end Day and asap. Also too quick to just seemingly give up and call it a loss. Those two posts in a row just read like "ohhh, come on..we've almost got them" posts.

Maybe it's just me. I guess it is.

It's a good point, actually. But, then again, if things are as they seem, wouldn't she be doing just that, anyways?

[Idle Thoughts]

I guess. But it's just one of those "why would we do what scum wants us to do?" thing.

She just seems too.....something in those two posts.

[CatInASuit]

Bumpity Bump - I wonder if I would have done better in this game, if instead of threatening Diomedes with a non-existant bomb I should have offered everyone lap dances from my nubile cohorts.

::adds to Evil Overlord rules::

[Pleonast]

It looks like the votes are settling into place. I'll end the Day in an hour or so, unless there are any objections.

[Pleonast]

I called the game for the Town. Zoggie was the Necromancer. HazelNutCoffee and Santo Rugger were Wolves, and the only remaining scum. They'd get two more kills, but the Town's five could absorb the losses.

Sorry, zuma. The scum had their chances, but were ultimately out-played by the Town.

Key plays, in my opinion:
The Cabal got wiped out on Night Three, before they used any secret powers. This helped the Town a lot.
The Wolves wasting their recruit power on a Cabalist.
CatInASuit delaying his lynching by a Day, distracting the Town and using his recruit power. Gave the Undead a real shot.

[CatInASuit]

I called the game for the Town. Zoggie was the Necromancer. HazelNutCoffee and Santo Rugger were Wolves, and the only remaining scum. They'd get two more kills, but the Town's five could absorb the losses.

Sorry, zuma. The scum had their chances, but were ultimately out-played by the Town.

Key plays, in my opinion:
The Cabal got wiped out on Night Three, before they used any secret powers. This helped the Town a lot.
The Wolves wasting their recruit power on a Cabalist.
CatInASuit delaying his lynching by a Day, distracting the Town and using his recruit power. Gave the Undead a real shot.

I knew I should have taken Diomedes out on Night 3 instead of Kat. Oh well.

[HazelNutCoffee]

Well played everyone.

This was my first time playing scum, and I made some very stupid mistakes that came back to bite me in the ass. :smack:

The wolves were pretty unlucky (although not as unlucky as the Cabal!) in terms of Night kills, but I also think that overall most of us were pretty sloppy during the game. We had no Day strategies and even when most of us were alive the secret boards were pretty quiet. I guess people were busy IRL.

I'm wondering, though, whether the game wasn't a tiny bit skewed towards Town. I mean, the Town had a pretty impressive array of powers to make up for their lack of information.

[HazelNutCoffee]

A comment that occured to me while reading the Witch boards: Blaster Master's revelation that he was immune to recruitment did tip us off he was the last Witch, because I, as the Alpha Wolf, knew that the only Townies immune to my curse were Witches. Not that it did us much good knowing that.

[CatInASuit]

BTW: If anyone wants to comment in my thread on Pleonast's board - feel free.

[Pleonast]

The biggest mistake the scum made was letting sachertorte live. His instant feedback of the dead's alignment helped the Town. And by keeping the specific Role secret, he didn't give the information the scum really needed.

It amused me that the Cabal kept blocking Idle Thoughts, who was protecting sach. So both were vulnerable!

[storyteller0910]

So what was the secret way by which the Witches could divine the number of Cabal, but couldn't discuss?

And what the heck was ShadowFacts' actual role?

[Pleonast]

See the list of Role PM's here. (http://masontalk.proboards51.com/index.cgi?board=den&action=display&thread=1190911764) He was a Scotsman. He needs to be attacked to have any useful information, thus his reluctance to reveal.

They managed to figure out how many Cabalists there were by looking at the last posting dates of the Cabalist accounts. (Next time, I'll have to make completely separate boards.) I decided not to mod-bash them, because the logic "three Witches means three Cabalists" was correct.

Cat and I have some commentary in his thread on the secret board: The Inquisitive Vampire Diaries (http://masontalk.proboards51.com/index.cgi?board=den&action=display&thread=1193944095).

[HazelNutCoffee]

The biggest mistake the scum made was letting sachertorte live.
I totally agree with this. We vastly underestimated the importance of the Coroner role. :smack:

[Freudian Slit]

See the list of Role PM's here. (http://masontalk.proboards51.com/index.cgi?board=den&action=display&thread=1190911764)
Cool to finally be able to read this thread. How do we log into that site?

[Pleonast]

Hmm, I thought I opened it up completely, but apparently you still need an account. Just sign up for an account, I'll approve it as soon as I see it.

[Freudian Slit]

Hmm, I thought I opened it up completely, but apparently you still need an account. Just sign up for an account, I'll approve it as soon as I see it.
Sweet. I signed up.

[Freudian Slit]

I posted this in the last thread, but I probably should've posted it here--there really was no vigilante? So the only way to kill the vampire was in the day--which did happen, so...yeah.

[DiggitCamara]

And now I see that pretty much all masons knew each other, except for me.

2 reasons for that:

1. I didn't understand on Day 1 that my decision to investigate someone could be changed. Otherwise I'd definitely changed my handshake to amrussell
2. My stupid interpretation of the ruleset on Day 2 pretty much erased me from everyone's potential freemason list. :smack:

[HazelNutCoffee]

2. My stupid interpretation of the ruleset on Day 2 pretty much erased me from everyone's potential freemason list. :smack:
:D I find this really funny, for some reason.

[Freudian Slit]

Oh, and no lap dances happened. ::pout:: Or not enough.

Question--how did no one in the night kill me? Did Catinasuit realize I was necro before the town? or was it just chance?

[Rysto]

I think that everyone was so convinced that you were Cabal that nobody gave you a second look. I don't know if you intended that, but once we knew that the Cabal was wiped out you were mostly ignored.

[HazelNutCoffee]

You were never on our nightkill list until the very end, when I briefly contemplated killing you to validate my Vig claim. By that point it was pretty much over, though. I also contemplated killing Cat, but the thought that he might be the Vampire made us reluctant to risk it.

[MHaye]

Thanks for the game, Pleo. :)

That ties me up for the evening reading the other boards though.

[CatInASuit]

Well, I would like to add my thanks to everyone else's in congratulating Pleonast for running such a good game.

Personally, I think the turning point of the game was Night 3/Day 4 and the scum sides did not really recover from that.

Although it was close :D

[Rysto]

Great game, Pleo. It was lots of fun, even if you did get your Bastard Mod title honestly. ;)

I do have a couple comments about the balance game, though. First of all, I think that the combination of the Mother's Secret Power and the Witchdoctor's power is game breaking in a game of this size. It didn't come into play this game only because we witches screwed it up. Second, I wonder if perhaps the Witches are too powerful. They have a ton of information from their investigations and from knowing that the other witches are town. Combine that with some confirmed role-claims and it seems to me that the Town might be in too good a position.

[Boozahol Squid, P.I.]

And now I see that pretty much all masons knew each other, except for me.

2 reasons for that:

1. I didn't understand on Day 1 that my decision to investigate someone could be changed. Otherwise I'd definitely changed my handshake to amrussell
2. My stupid interpretation of the ruleset on Day 2 pretty much erased me from everyone's potential freemason list. :smack:

That, by the way, was what had me convinced you were scum for the longest time, Diggit. When we'd gotten down to knowing that there were four scum in a population of six (or maybe it was seven), and I knew you weren't a mason, it just made sense to me. Sorry for carrying the grudge long past when it made sense. :)

[Pleonast]

Maybe, Rysto. The Town only had 12 out of the original 22. Look at the list of kills on the first three Nights:
1) Wolf, Cabalist
2) Freemason, Witch
3) Cabalist, Cabalist
That's 4 scum of out 6 kills! And one of the Townie kills was a Freemason, the most disposable of the Town. I expected scum-on-scum crossfire, but not this much.

And look at the first three Town lynches:
1) Cabalist
2) Freemason
3) Wolf
Again, the Town got scum 2 out of 3 lynches! And the Townie lynched was Freemason.

After the first three Days, when the Town had little actionable information, the kills were 6 scum vs 3 Town! That's a lead that's very hard to come back from, if you're scum. The fact that Cat managed to give Undead a shot is remarkable. Zoggie played well (completely outguessing the Vicar), but in the end couldn't lie well enough. :D

So, I think the balance is mostly fine (should've had four Cabalists). I'm interested in hearing other opinions, though. I'd like to run this again (on the other board, sometime next year) and feedback is much appreciated.

[DiggitCamara]

That, by the way, was what had me convinced you were scum for the longest time, Diggit. When we'd gotten down to knowing that there were four scum in a population of six (or maybe it was seven), and I knew you weren't a mason, it just made sense to me. Sorry for carrying the grudge long past when it made sense. :)
Funny, though, when I saw Rugger's claim, I thought he was toast for sure. Since I'd already investigated him and I knew there was another mason on the loose, I figured that if I claimed, I could either be confirmed by another living mason or, in case that other mason had died, by sacher. But then Dawn came and we were notified Hal, the next-to-last mason had died... :smack:

[Freudian Slit]

I agree--it was a great game. Pleo, thanks for modding.

ETA: Definitely plan on playing if you host it again next year. I think wading through all the posts/PMs from this game will keep me busy for a while, though.

[Rysto]

The town did get lucky with the scum crossfire. But we witches also made some critical mistakes - not protecting me Night 2 after I gave out such strong Vig-tells and not protecting Idle Night 4 despite him being central to our plans. I'm not sure how that balances against the scum crossfire.

[CatInASuit]

Actually Pleonast, on Night 1 it was a freemason and a wolf killed, so 50/50 on town/scum at night. But it was still not good for the scum.

I would add another Cabalist into the mix and possibly drop one of the Wolves considering that they still get a recruit in the game. The good thing is that you can swop some of the roles around without affecting the game too much and it would be fun to play in again.

I think the town was lucky that sachertorte was outed as the Coroner on the first day as it really did help them.

Oh and diomedes, no hard feelings eh :p

[nesta]

I told you guys Hazel was a wolf. ;) I guess in hindsight I shouldn't have.

Thanks for the game Pleonast. It was unlucky for all the scum groups that the cabal was taken out so early, but I think it would have been a little more balanced if the cabal had either a one-shot kill ability or a recruitment to balance the fact that we had so few and our power was useless against the witches.

[CatInASuit]

The town did get lucky with the scum crossfire. But we witches also made some critical mistakes - not protecting me Night 2 after I gave out such strong Vig-tells and not protecting Idle Night 4 despite him being central to our plans. I'm not sure how that balances against the scum crossfire.
Well I certainly thought you were the Vigilante for sure. I spent a chunk of Day 2 trying to work out if you were either the Vig or a Witch as you were playing right out in front and so had to be certain you could survive a lynch call if necessary.

I settled for Vig as is seemed more likely.

It was a good call either way I guess. :D

[Santo Rugger]

I am a Freemason

I thought my timing on that claim was darn near perfect. Too bad I flubbed it by trying to explain how my "Secret Power" worked. :D

I concur that the Cabalists were kind of hosed from the start. I mean, they had as many of them as the witches, but without 9 others to back them up.

I think the Wolves were relatively balanced, although I stupidly voted for three of them, trying to gain town creed for later in the game, not realizing that we couldn't really afford the loss later.

Overall, it was a great game. I do need to have a sit-down with story though, about how to survive a scum endgame. In return, I'll teach him how to survive Night 2 ;)

[Pleonast]

Actually Pleonast, on Night 1 it was a freemason and a wolf killed, so 50/50 on town/scum at night. But it was still not good for the scum.Doh! You're right; too many things to keep straight. I'm a little surprised I didn't mess up my own rules at some point or another. Saving all PMs helped a lot. :)Thanks for the game Pleonast. It was unlucky for all the scum groups that the cabal was taken out so early, but I think it would have been a little more balanced if the cabal had either a one-shot kill ability or a recruitment to balance the fact that we had so few and our power was useless against the witches.The Cabal's secret powers could affect Witches, though. Should've used them earlier! :smack: Cabalists having a one-time kill-power or a recruitment would be useful though.

Question to Everyone: did the Secret Powers add to the game, or were they an unnecessary distraction? If I run this again, should I put in new Secret Powers, or leave them out?

[Rysto]

Well I certainly thought you were the Vigilante for sure. I spent a chunk of Day 2 trying to work out if you were either the Vig or a Witch as you were playing right out in front and so had to be certain you could survive a lynch call if necessary.
Damn, you out WIFOM'ed there. I didn't worry about being protected because I figured that scum would not target me as I looked likely to be lynched.

[Santo Rugger]

<snip>If I run this again, should I put in new Secret Powers, or leave them out?

Speaking from a scum perspective (don't I always), I would say that you should do both. Leave some in, add some new ones, and take some out. However, it seemed that after enough town claims, the town was able to verify itself based on what the secret powers looked like. I rather liked the way the Firefly game was set up, in the way that it reminded me of JSexton's clue game, in that scum could claim exactly their role and lie about their side. Although, especially towards the end, I really liked the dynamic of multiple factions in this game. It made things very confusing, like a puzzle, which was fun to try putting together! :)

[DiggitCamara]

Speaking from a scum perspective (don't I always), I would say that you should do both. Leave some in, add some new ones, and take some out. However, it seemed that after enough town claims, the town was able to verify itself based on what the secret powers looked like. I rather liked the way the Firefly game was set up, in the way that it reminded me of JSexton's clue game, in that scum could claim exactly their role and lie about their side. Although, especially towards the end, I really liked the dynamic of multiple factions in this game. It made things very confusing, like a puzzle, which was fun to try putting together! :)
I agree with Santo's idea.

You should randomize the Secret Powers. (80/20, perhaps). In other words, all powers should be lined out (like in this game) but they should be activated for some Players. Others should just... disappear.

That way Players can't use them as verification. Which is what I did with Rugger. Once I realized everyone had them, I forced him to revisit his claim. I was lucky his claim was patently false and that not one of the freemasons had posted his/her Secret Power, but if one of the other roles (Blaster for instance) hadn't had a Secret Power, my own claim would be much less believable during the end game.

[HazelNutCoffee]

We totally wasted our recruitment on nesta. :p But the Wolves played badly this time around. I was very sloppy overall; Fretful got killed early on and fluiddruid didn't participate much in the Night discussions. It was difficult for me because I kept forgetting I needed to play dumb when it came to discussing information. Newbie mistake. Won't happen again, I assure you. :D

It's funny how scum crossfire hit more scum than town, although I do think the Witches' powers were a bit unbalanced. And all the Secret Powers really made my head spin. Overall I think this game is best played by experienced mafia players.

[Boozahol Squid, P.I.]

I think the town was lucky that sachertorte was outed as the Coroner on the first day as it really did help them.

Oh and diomedes, no hard feelings eh :p

sache's role was surprising in how strong it was: both in its confirmability and that more information, controlled by a pro-Town player, is a huge bonus for the Town.

No hard feelings. But I'm keeping the pelt as a memento, okay? ;)

The Cabal's secret powers could affect Witches, though. Should've used them earlier! Cabalists having a one-time kill-power or a recruitment would be useful though.

Question to Everyone: did the Secret Powers add to the game, or were they an unnecessary distraction? If I run this again, should I put in new Secret Powers, or leave them out?

The Cabal was astonishingly unlucky in this game. If they had a fourth member, I think that'd be a huge edge, as the chance that two witches make it to an endgame is very low. If there'd been a Cabalist left at the end of this game, the Town would have been absolutely sunk. A Cabal kill would be a good add. Four Cabalists plus a recruit would make them the odds-on favorite. Especially their ability to day-talk makes them, even in this set-up, very good if they can get out of the early game.

I like the secret powers, although it might have been a bit unbalancing as to how they affected role claims. Perhaps including sample power roles, some used, some unused, in the set-up would deflect that. I don't think there's a bad role in this game, really, and those secret roles really contributed to that.

How did you decide which Town roles to include, and which to leave out? It makes a lot of sense that there won't be Witches, a Detective and a Seer, I really expected there to be a Vig.

[Idle Thoughts]

I totally agree with this. We vastly underestimated the importance of the Coroner role. :smack:

I didn't. Which is why, as opposed to how it seemed in game, I was enchanting him every Night. :p

[Boozahol Squid, P.I.]

I didn't. Which is why, as opposed to how it seemed in game, I was enchanting him every Night. :p

:eek:
If I -ever- try to get a handle on how you think again, please slap me. :p

[Idle Thoughts]

Hahaha, waiting to be approved as a member on my own boards. :p

[Idle Thoughts]

:eek:
If I -ever- try to get a handle on how you think again, please slap me. :p

I tried to in words that last Day I was alive. I was saying I was going to talk to Rysto, but yeah right. Would I really be as stupid as to tell scum publically in the topic what I'd do? :p Hahah, well, actually wouldn't surprise me if some might think that, but nah.....I always try to be full of surprises.

[HazelNutCoffee]

Is there another game lined up on the boards?

[Idle Thoughts]

Thanks, Pleonast! It was a great and fun game.

Hazel- I dunno about this board but one is lined up on mine. psychopathgame.proboards106.com

I'm sure there's another here pretty soon, though.

[ShadowFacts]

All thrugh the game SF was showing very anti-Town behavior.

Well, it may have seemed that way to you :) If it makes you feel any better, I felt exactly the same way about you. (In fact, one of the reasons I was going after you so hard was because I was completely convinced you were scum, and was trying to bait you into killing me at night. So much for that plan.)

[ShadowFacts]

NETA: I'm a guy, everyone!

[Santo Rugger]

NETA: I'm a guy, everyone!

The game's over, you can edit now ;)

I thought you were a guy the whole time, if it makes ya feel any better. :)

[Freudian Slit]

I thought you were a guy, too, SF. Something about the tall dark stranger meme, you know?

[Kat]

Thanks for the game, Pleo. It was great fun, up until I got deaded. ;)

[Boozahol Squid, P.I.]

NETA: I'm a guy, everyone!

I think you are the only person in this game whose gender I had down correctly.

[HazelNutCoffee]

If I'd known ShadowFacts was tall and dark, I would've given him a free lapdance. ;) Too bad.

[Idle Thoughts]

I can understand him being a guy but my mind still doesn't want to see sach and CIAS as guys. : /

[CatInASuit]

I tried to in words that last Day I was alive. I was saying I was going to talk to Rysto, but yeah right. Would I really be as stupid as to tell scum publically in the topic what I'd do? :p Hahah, well, actually wouldn't surprise me if some might think that, but nah.....I always try to be full of surprises.
Idle Thoughts, I had you marked down as a recruit from the moment you claimed and I found out my curse overrode your self protect.

It didn't actually matter what you were doing as far as I was concerned. Although I was grateful for your public note of what you were doing because from the WIFOM it meant the wolves stayed away from you.

[sachertorte]

sache's role was surprising in how strong it was: both in its confirmability and that more information, controlled by a pro-Town player, is a huge bonus for the Town.
That was essentially the key discovery I made during Day One. I knew that no matter what I did, I would eventually be able to confirm myself. Through all the accusations and lack of trust, I knew that as the Days passed, my role would become confirmed.
After realizing that I could self-confirm, I thought about the information I was given and concluded that I would give out just enough to confirm myself and sit on the rest. Control of information really helped. At first I didn't want to let scum know that Freemasons existed (mainly because I thought recruitment of a Freemason would be really, really, bad). When Rysto died, I thanked my lucky stars that I had already been stingy about giving out Role information. I absolutely did not want scum to know that Rysto was a witch. I was terrified that something in the post history would lead scum to the other witches. Turns out Rysto's posts were clean, but I didn't know that at the time and there were so many of them!

I wasn't entirely surprised that I survived Night One. I hadn't given out information yet and I expected scum to be curious about what I would reveal. I wasn't even confirmed yet. But after Day Two I was much more concerned that I would be nightkilled, especially after seeing what happened to amrussell. I fully expected to get killed, so played a little bit of reverse psychology. My statements that the most important thing I needed to do was warn the town about recruitment was my way of saying, "Hey, I've done my task. I'm not important anymore. If scum kills me that's good because that means they didn't kill the Detective/Seer/Witch"

So anyway, that's how I played my Role. I think I was very lucky to have received such an interesting and new (shiny too!) role, which allowed me to play without preconceived ideas of how the role should be played. I also benefitted from a passive power. The effectiveness of my role was not determined by which random target I choose (less stress, yay!), but by how I used the subsequent information (more strategy, less luck).

Thanks to Pleonast for creating such an interesting role to play and for moderating the game.

[sachertorte]

I tried to in words that last Day I was alive. I was saying I was going to talk to Rysto, but yeah right. Would I really be as stupid as to tell scum publically in the topic what I'd do? :p Hahah, well, actually wouldn't surprise me if some might think that, but nah.....I always try to be full of surprises.
I picked up on this. My first reaction was to post something about not telling scum what your plans are, but I thought about it, realized what Idle was up to and decided to say nothing.

When in doubt, shut up. :D

[ShadowFacts]

So anyway, that's how I played my Role. I think I was very lucky to have received such an interesting and new (shiny too!) role, which allowed me to play without preconceived ideas of how the role should be played. I also benefitted from a passive power. The effectiveness of my role was not determined by which random target I choose (less stress, yay!), but by how I used the subsequent information (more strategy, less luck).


I think you did extremely well with the role, putting up with a LOT of pressure (from me included) in those early Days. I would say you were the biggest reason the Town won. Dio and Hockey also timed their claims very well and pretty much got the most out of their roles. The Town in this game seemed a lot more coordinated than in previous games on this board that I've skimmed. Obviously, there was a lot of floundering, particularly at the start - it's unavoidable, but overall there was a LOT of good thinking and good strategizing that ended up bearing fruit.

[Hockey Monkey]

Thanks for the kudos guys. It's nice to be noticed. :) I think everyone played very well. The Cabal were just super unlucky.

[CatInASuit]

I can understand him being a guy but my mind still doesn't want to see sach and CIAS as guys. : /
Seriously Idle Thoughts, don't worry it.

And for amusement, my wife is usually thought of as "he" online instead.

[Idle Thoughts]

Okay, I don't feel so bad then. :)
Still, I'll try to get it right. :smack:

[NAF1138]

Bah, I wish I had been able to keep up with this game better then I did. Maybe this weekend I will go back and read the whole thing.

Anyone know who is up next? Is it Fluid's turn yet?

[storyteller0910]

Brief public service announcement:

We still need five more players for the Mafia: Blade Runner game to be played over on Idle's boards. Sign-ups are open here:

http://psychopathgame.proboards106.com/index.cgi?board=temp&action=display&thread=1194382217&page=1

I anticipate beginning the new game on Monday of next week, but I'd like to assign roles by Friday afternoon if possible, so if you're interested, come on over and sign up.

/Brief public service announcement

[Rysto]

I absolutely did not want scum to know that Rysto was a witch. I was terrified that something in the post history would lead scum to the other witches. Turns out Rysto's posts were clean, but I didn't know that at the time and there were so many of them!
I made one subtle slip-up on Day One. I accidentally started a bandwagon against somebody(actually, I think that it was you) early that Day. I got pretty uneasy about it as it built up steam rather quickly and when Dio followed me on it, I panicked a bit and immediately unvoted. The witches' voting records were a big worry of mine and a lot of the votes that I placed were more to avoid voting with BLaM and Dio.

[Boozahol Squid, P.I.]

I made one subtle slip-up on Day One. I accidentally started a bandwagon against somebody(actually, I think that it was you) early that Day. I got pretty uneasy about it as it built up steam rather quickly and when Dio followed me on it, I panicked a bit and immediately unvoted. The witches' voting records were a big worry of mine and a lot of the votes that I placed were more to avoid voting with BLaM and Dio.


I think I meant to say something you about that: while we had discussed not voting together on things, I thought that it would seem a little out of character for me (for people who saw me on Firefly) to not leap onto a bandwagon, once it had built up a little head of steam.

[ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]

One more player needed for the off-board Blade Runner game, and I believe we're looking for about 5 subs as well...

hint

hint

[storyteller0910]

Sorry to bump this, but we're in need of a sub in the ongoing game on the other board. The game is still in the middle of Day One, so someone joining in won't have missed a terribly enormous amount of play.

Anyone interested, please PM me here or there. Thanks!