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brazil84
10-08-2007, 02:48 AM
Assuming that you didn't lie on your citizenship application; were never a Nazi; didn't do anything wrong before taking the oath of citizenship, etc. . . .

In other words, can a naturalized US citizen be deported for misconduct that takes place after he or she takes the oath of citizenship?

My feeling is that the answer is NO, but I need a statute or a court case to point to in order to win a bet.

RandMcnally
10-08-2007, 03:42 AM
Wouldn't that be the same thing as being exiled?

Keeve
10-08-2007, 09:10 AM
Assuming that you didn't lie on your citizenship application; were never a Nazi; didn't do anything wrong before taking the oath of citizenship, etc. . . .I presume that what you really mean is that you didn't do anything to cause you to lose your citizenship, so you are still a US citizen.
My feeling is that the answer is NO, but I need a statute or a court case to point to in order to win a bet.No, the burden of proof is on the other guy. He needs to find a crime for which the penalty is deportation or (as RandMcnally suggested) exile.

Gfactor
10-08-2007, 11:07 AM
You might find this case interesting caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data2/circs/11th/0410144p.pdf (deportee stripped of citizenship for crimes committed before, but not charged, naturalization).

brazil84
10-08-2007, 11:09 AM
You might find this case interesting caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data2/circs/11th/0410144p.pdf (deportee stripped of citizenship for crimes committed before, but not charged, naturalization).

I can't open it, but is that the Lionel Baptiste case?

Elenfair
10-08-2007, 11:11 AM
Canadian Immigrant to the US here.

Yes. A naturalized citizen can be deported if he commits certain types of felonies, including murder. A naturalized citizen can be stripped of his or her citizenship and deported to his or her country of origin.

In some cases, this poses a problem if the country of origin no longer recognizes the citizen as one of theirs after they have taken on American citizenship. Look up the concept online -- search for the "Denaturalization" process. There are lots of examples out there.

brazil84
10-08-2007, 11:26 AM
Canadian Immigrant to the US here.

Yes. A naturalized citizen can be deported if he commits certain types of felonies, including murder. A naturalized citizen can be stripped of his or her citizenship and deported to his or her country of origin.

In some cases, this poses a problem if the country of origin no longer recognizes the citizen as one of theirs after they have taken on American citizenship. Look up the concept online -- search for the "Denaturalization" process. There are lots of examples out there.

Thank you. I found this:

http://www.usvisa-law.com/citizens.htm#Denaturalization

Denaturalization is the process where the INS or another US government agency petitions to have previously granted US citizenship revoked and nullified. This process may be administrative or judicial. If administrative, the process may not be initiated more than two years after citizenship is granted. There is no temporal limit for Judicial denaturalization. Aside from two never before enforced grounds, denaturalization may only be brought for fraud or misrepresentation in the naturalization process. Absent those two, not yet enforced grounds, one may not be denaturalized for actions occurring after naturalization is granted.

. . .

The two grounds punishing conduct occurring after naturalization are: (1) refusing to testify before a congressional committee within ten years after INS grants naturalization, and (2) if the naturalized citizen becomes a member of a proscribed subversive organization within five years after naturalization. Either of these events provides prima facie evidence of lack of attachment to the United States at the time of naturalization as well as a concealment or misrepresentation of the oath of allegiance, and other promises an applicant makes during the naturalization process. INA Sections 340(a) through (c), Title 8 Code of Federal Regulations Sections 1451 (a) through (c).

Should INS attempt enforcement of either of these provisions, significant legal opposition is likely.

Gfactor
10-08-2007, 11:27 AM
I can't open it, but is that the Lionel Baptiste case?

Yep.

kdeus
10-08-2007, 11:48 AM
Depriving a U.S. citizen of their citizenship is "the total destruction of the individual’s status in organized society” and “is offensive to cardinal principle for which the constitution stands.” according to the U.S. Supreme Court in Trop v. Dulles 356 U.S. 86 at 99 (1958).

Trop was a native born citizen of the U.S., serving in the U.S. military, who lost his citizenship for the crime of Desertion in time of war. (Yes, the maximum authorized punishment is Death, don't get me started, I could talk for hours.)

The Supremes said that Death was an authorized punishment, but denaturalization was not. Go figure. BTW "Deprivation of citizenship" is no longer listed as an authorized punishment under the Uniform Code of Military Justice.

Some caveats:
The current standard for "cruel and unusual punishment" is from Furman v. Georgia, 408 U.S. 238 (1972), which obviously ante-dates Trop. Extremely short version of the current standard for C&UP: no unnecessary and wonton infliction of pain, and nothing grossly out of proportion to the crime .

Obviously Elenfair has more recent, personal experience in this area, I'm just another soldier in the fight against ignorance. But to me, "Denaturalization & deportation" sounds like a scary big brother punishment (You'll never go home again :eek: !!!) to keep the new voters and military recruits in line. Whether it has been used, I don't know.

Lizard
10-08-2007, 01:14 PM
The Baptiste case made me wonder: Are there ANY circumstances under which a native born (not naturalized) citizen could be stripped of his citizenship?

sturmhauke
10-08-2007, 08:08 PM
The Cable Act (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cable_Act_of_1922) had the side effect that a natural born white American woman who married a foreign born Asian man would lose her US citizenship.

Una Persson
10-08-2007, 08:20 PM
The Cable Act (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cable_Act_of_1922) had the side effect that a natural born white American woman who married a foreign born Asian man would lose her US citizenship.
What an obscure and yet very interesting reference...

MikeS
10-08-2007, 10:03 PM
In other words, can a naturalized US citizen be deported for misconduct that takes place after he or she takes the oath of citizenship?Technically speaking, a dual citizen (born in Country A, naturalized in the US) could be extradited back to his home country for crimes he committed there after being naturalized. But it would presumably not matter whether he was a naturalized or natural-born citizen, and he wouldn't be stripped of his U.S. citizenship over this. I can't think of a case in which this has occurred, though.

MikeS
10-08-2007, 10:11 PM
Ah, Google to the rescue: Gregory Despres (http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2005/09/15/despres050915.html). He was born in Canada, naturalized in the U.S., went back to Canada and killed an elderly couple, fled to the U.S., and was then captured in Massachusetts and deported back to Canada to stand trial. He's now scheduled to stand trial late this year or early next. It's worth noting that the border guards couldn't legally detain him at the U.S. border, despite the bloody chainsaw (!) and other weapons in his car, since he was a U.S. citizen and was not (at the time) wanted on any criminal charges that they knew about.

sturmhauke
10-08-2007, 10:39 PM
What an obscure and yet very interesting reference...
I learned that in an Asian American history class back in college. What's worse, if instead of a natural born white American woman you had a natural born Asian American woman, she still lost her citizenship but was also ineligible to get it back. I couldn't find an online cite, but that was one of the reasons the Cable Act was later repealed.

Northern Piper
10-08-2007, 11:52 PM
Lengthy thread from two years ago on the Gregory Depres case: Keeping US borders safe (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=320183).

Earlier this year, I remember seeing a news item that Mr. Depres had been found fit to stand trial.

friedo
10-09-2007, 12:19 AM
Ah, Google to the rescue: Gregory Despres (http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2005/09/15/despres050915.html). He was born in Canada, naturalized in the U.S., went back to Canada and killed an elderly couple, fled to the U.S., and was then captured in Massachusetts and deported back to Canada to stand trial.

This appears to be a simple matter of extradition, and there's no reason to think his US citizenship is in jeopardy.

Siam Sam
10-09-2007, 12:26 AM
Hasn't there been some instances of Mafia figures stripped of citizenship and deported back to Italy? I'm thinking 1930s gangster era, but maybe since then, too. I mean for activity after they became citizens.

DrDeth
10-09-2007, 03:01 AM
The Baptiste case made me wonder: Are there ANY circumstances under which a native born (not naturalized) citizen could be stripped of his citizenship?

I beleive you can repudiate your citizenship. It's diificult. Also, AFAIK, if you are born in the USA of foriegn partents, you have dual citizenship until age 18, and then if you choose your parents nation, you are no longer a US citizen. Both require a choice on your part, however.

MikeS
10-09-2007, 03:54 PM
This appears to be a simple matter of extradition, and there's no reason to think his US citizenship is in jeopardy.Yes, certainly. As I said in my first post, while it technically fits the bill of a naturalized U.S. citizen being forced to return to the country of his birth, his U.S. naturalization is not in question. It just goes to show that naturalized U.S. citizens are not automatically immune from being forcibly returned to their place of birth.

Running with Scissors
10-09-2007, 06:32 PM
I beleive you can repudiate your citizenship. It's diificult..

Yes, Cecil covered this a decade or so ago:

http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a4_229.html

Dead Badger
11-08-2007, 06:54 AM
I beleive you can repudiate your citizenship. It's diificult. Also, AFAIK, if you are born in the USA of foriegn partents, you have dual citizenship until age 18, and then if you choose your parents nation, you are no longer a US citizen. Both require a choice on your part, however.Not so. I was born just as you describe, and still hold multiple passports with the full knowledge of the authorities. From the US State Department (http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1753.html) (bolding mine):
U.S. law does not mention dual nationality or require a person to choose one citizenship or another. Also, a person who is automatically granted another citizenship does not risk losing U.S. citizenship. However, a person who acquires a foreign citizenship by applying for it may lose U.S. citizenship. In order to lose U.S. citizenship, the law requires that the person must apply for the foreign citizenship voluntarily, by free choice, and with the intention to give up U.S. citizenship.I held all my nationalities automatically at birth, and will continue to do so until such time as I choose to relinquish them.

Mycroft H.
11-08-2007, 10:46 AM
Dead Badger, thank you for explaining this and fighting my ignorance. Over the years I had heard conflicting reports of dual citizenship being illegal for US citizens but also heard of some people who did have dual citizenship. :confused: I never bothered to pursue the matter but, thanks to you, think I understand it now.

silenus
11-08-2007, 10:55 AM
What would happen if the country to which the US wanted to deport someone they had stripped of citizenship no longer existed? Would they send them back to the same geographical area, no matter the political status?