Mrs. Gotbaum and the UnKindness of Strangers (a Toulouse Lautrec pitting)

[Sampiro]

Toulouse Lautrec Pitting = short and lame

For some reason this article (http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/10/10/airport.death/) from CNN.com just really rubbed me rawer than handcuffs:

Husband says kindness might have saved wife at airport

excerpt: "If the airline or the police authorities had treated Carol with some modicum of sensitivity and grace, or one single person at that airport had put an arm around her shoulder, sat her down and given her some protection, she might still be with us today," Noah Gotbaum said at her funeral Sunday in New York.


The above is apparently from her husband's eulogy for her at that.

This is the YouTube (http://youtube.com/watch?v=S6R4W683btA) of the airport security video. Dude- I'm sorry for your loss, I really am, but does it look like your wife was being kind to the airport personnel? People are stopping dead still in the middle of an airport to watch and listen to her, obviously hesitant to go near her. Now, I understand she had issues, but the typical procedure for such moments in the handbooks of most law enforcement personnel, even the rent-a-cops the airport seems to use, is probably not "put your arm around her shoulder and act warm and fuzzy", and to the unarmed with no authority in the airport it would be even less feasible to do so. (I consider myself a compassionate person, but I wouldn't have gone anywhere near the crazy woman.) Your wife was probably late to the Dry Gulch Express because she was getting drunk in a bar, which is why they probably thought they had an out-of-control drunk on their hands, and that's why they didn't respond by giving her inner child a tea party.

It just irks me: I know there's going to be a major lawsuit here. No idea how culpable Phoenix AP authorities are for her death, but I'm pretty sure that Ms. Gotbaum was at least up in there somewhere in terms of responsibility and ultimately her death was due to her alcoholism, which sucks and is bad and you don't deserve to die for but she did. Don't try to make the consequences of her going apeshit in an airport the result of strangers in a famously paranoid industry not treating a psycho bitch with kid gloves and lullabyes (especially when even if they'd been inclined to put an arm around her shoulder they'd have likely drawn back a nub and been sued for sexual harassment).

[smiling bandit]

So a drunk woman missed her flight, got pissed that she couldn't get on the next, got into a screaming hissy fit, got arrested for it (and they might well have let her go w/o charges after she sobered up, who knows), then strangled her own carcass while trying to escape from her restraints.

If there's a lawyer in the country who can win a lawsuit with that, I want to hire him.

[marshmallow]

This is the first I've read about the story. Quoted from the linked article,

Authorities believe she strangled herself as she tried to maneuver out of handcuffs secured behind her back and attached to a bench in the holding cell.
What the fuck? I can't even visualize this. But what a way to leave this mortal coil.

[OtakuLoki]

Even though I expect this to be a slam-dunk negligent death suit, should it ever go to court, that doesn't mean that I disagree that she wasn't the largest single factor in her death.

It's one thing to suggest that the rent-a-cops screwed up in their care of their prisoner. It's altogether another to suggest that she wasn't indulging in behavior that made it necessary that she needed to be restrained.

The case is good enough as it is, Mr. Gotbaum. There's no need to start trying to whitewash the actions of your wife to make the case go through. And you do yourself and your children no good when you refuse to acknowledge that your wife was the principle cause of her own demise.


smiling bandit, I don't disagree that she needed to be arrested. Where I think the negligence comes in is with the fact that it's considered the arresting authority's responsibility to keep a prisoner from doing harm to him or herself. So, I really do think that the case law history is such that this is going to be a slam-dunk case. Whether it should be or not is debatable, I don't think that the current state of case law is debatable, though.


ETA: marshmallow, here's a thread (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=438588) on the topic when the story first broke.

[Sampiro]

The Arizona police were not amused (http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/local/articles/1011airportdeath1011.html) by the remarks either (which also included remarks by the family rabbi who defended her travelling alone).

We respect the Gotbaum family's right to ask for answers and express their grief," said Sgt. Andy Hill, who called Gotbaum's death "a tragic incident which saddened us all."

The facts will come out in the investigation, he added.

"The surveillance video revealed the unsuccessful attempts by witnesses and officers to calm Ms. Gotbaum. The life-saving efforts of the police officers involved clearly demonstrated their concern for Ms. Gotbaum."

While I think "life-saving efforts" might be a bit of a stretch, I can see a counter-suit for libel if the Gotbaum family persists in trying to make Ms. Gotbaum a total victim.

[Cat Fight]

Sorry, but where the hell was he? How many people wouldn't accompany their spouse to rehab?

I do think there is something to be said for intervening when someone is obviously distraught, but I don't think people at an airport can be criticized for being somewhat hesitant. You can't joke about afreak out, let alopne help someone who's having one, if you want to get on your flight.

Has a definite cause of death been determined yet?

[Sampiro]

Sorry, but where the hell was he? How many people wouldn't accompany their spouse to rehab?

Per the family's rabbi
Carol was traveling alone because she wanted her husband, Noah, to look after their children, said Levine, senior rabbi at Congregation Rodeph Sholom, the synagogue where Gotbaum's memorial service was held.

"She was fiercely independent and private and believed strongly, as did the rest of the family, that she could do this on her own, that she wanted to do this on her own," Levine said. "So let us go forth and end the judgments."

(That's the judgments against the family, obviously, not against the airport security.)

[muldoonthief]

Sorry, but where the hell was he? How many people wouldn't accompany their spouse to rehab?



They have three children, ages 7, 5, & 3. He stayed with them in NYC. That strikes me as totally appropriate - he shouldn't have to babysit her through a couple of connecting flights.

And while I don't agree in the slightest with what he said, I've gotta give a grieving spouse 30 days to say whatever lunatic stuff he wants to.

[OtakuLoki]

They have three children, ages 7, 5, & 3. He stayed with them in NYC. That strikes me as totally appropriate - he shouldn't have to babysit her through a couple of connecting flights.

The problem I see is that no matter the good intentions of the addict it's hugely easy to backslide. Even if they've agreed to go to rehab, it's often considered a good idea for someone to accompany the addict on his or her travel. It's not that I think Mr. Gotbaum made a mistake to stay with the children, just that after my experiences as a patient in mental health circles, I think that the course of wisdom would have been to send a friend of the family or a family member with Ms. Gotbaum.

I'll go so far as to suggest that with the prevalence of airport bars, an alcoholic is probably more in need of a protective companion than people travelling while suffering other medical conditions.

[eleanorigby]

:dubious: and little cynical me says she wanted to be alone so that she could drink. :dubious: Fiercely independent. :dubious:

[The King of Soup]

:dubious: and little cynical me says she wanted to be alone so that she could drink. :dubious: Fiercely independent. :dubious:
Bull's-eye.

The time to be independent is a long careful while after you leave rehab, not in a sports bar on the way there. Fostering illusions of independence then is idiotic even if the worst doesn't happen. She was not could not should not have been an independent agent under those circumstances, and everyone involved had probably been apprised of that fact, which is why she was in the damned airport on her way to rehab in the first place.

Plenty of money around, and none for a babysitter/traveling companion/relative to see to the part of the family that would otherwise be left alone? Sending her past alcohol without a minder was like sending a diabetic on a long trip without his insulin (almost literally: diabetic problems can mimic aggressive drunkenness, and, left alone, they can and do die).

If you send a person who is by definition not capable of functioning independently out into the world to be independent, you have misplaced your intellect and morals both.

[smiling bandit]

smiling bandit, I don't disagree that she needed to be arrested. Where I think the negligence comes in is with the fact that it's considered the arresting authority's responsibility to keep a prisoner from doing harm to him or herself. So, I really do think that the case law history is such that this is going to be a slam-dunk case. Whether it should be or not is debatable, I don't think that the current state of case law is debatable, though.

I do not know or claim to know the case law. However, given that she was handcuffed and in a position where she really had to struggle to actually do harm to herself, and it came about because of her own gross stupidity, it's her own fault. AND the police can't watch anyone all the time. It's not like they didn't have other tasks, such as checking leggage for bombs and watching out for hijackers. Which takes a little more precedence.

Short version: She dug her own grave and will lie in it, and that's as far as it ought to go.

[DesertDog]

The ironic thing is that Tucson is only 100 miles away, which is nothing in the west. For $50 she could have taken one of seventeen daily shuttles by this one company (http://www.phoenixshuttle.com/DAILY_SCHEDULE.html) alone, and there are probably others. With a little luck, she would have been standing on the curb at the Tucson airport, luggage in hand, scarcely a half hour later than the flight would have gotten her to the same point.

[Sampiro]

The ironic thing is that Tucson is only 100 miles away, which is nothing in the west. For $50 she could have taken one of seventeen daily shuttles by this one company (http://www.phoenixshuttle.com/DAILY_SCHEDULE.html) alone, and there are probably others. With a little luck, she would have been standing on the curb at the Tucson airport, luggage in hand, scarcely a half hour later than the flight would have gotten her to the same point.

But the shuttle doesn't have a bar.

[Cat Fight]

Anyone know how she might have managed to choke herself (an educated guess or link)?

[OtakuLoki]

Anyone know how she might have managed to choke herself (an educated guess or link)?


Check out this link (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=438588) to a GQ thread on the topic.


The short answer: With a great deal of effort and determination.

[tomndebb]

Your wife was probably late to the Dry Gulch Express because she was getting drunk in a bar, which is why they probably thought they had an out-of-control drunk on their hands, and that's why they didn't respond by giving her inner child a tea party. The time to be independent is a long careful while after you leave rehab, not in a sports bar on the way there. Any actual evidence that she had been drinking?

The original stories (see links in the earlier thread) indicated that she took a flight to Phoenix slightly later than planned because she wanted to say goodbye to her kids as they went to school (they were asleep when the earlier flight departed). The later flight looked to be an OK connection--she did arrive before the connecting flight departed, just not before they closed boarding.

My guess would be more likely DTs or something similar rather than drinking.

I don't agree with the widower's comments, but I don't see any reason to pile more abuse on the deceased than she had already brought on herself.

[OtakuLoki]

Any actual evidence that she had been drinking?

While not evidence, at this point, since it's simply hearsay testimony, the article Sampiro linked in his OP says this:

But 46 minutes before the Tucson flight was scheduled to leave, Gotbaum went to an airport sports bar to get something to eat, and may have had some drinks there, the source said. She arrived at the gate one minute after boarding was closed, and was not allowed to board.

There's at least reason to suspect that she drank there.

And while the DTs are a possibility, that fact, to my mind, simply underscores the wisdom for having had a travelling companion with Ms. Gotbaum.

[tomndebb]

While not evidence, at this point, since it's simply hearsay testimony, the article Sampiro linked in his OP says this:

There's at least reason to suspect that she drank there. I'd say that that was an excellent reason to believe she was drinking. I missed that in a cursory read and I withdraw my objection.

[Omegaman]

Maybe she had some drinks and after getting in trouble, decided it would be better to commit suicide than go to rehab.

[Omegaman]

Maybe she had some drinks and after getting in trouble, decided it would be better to commit suicide than to go to rehab.

[Zebra]

The fact that she got a meal does not, to me, seem to indicate that she was probably drinking booze as well. I'm sure they sell water and tea there.

[Flutterby]

The fact that she got a meal does not, to me, seem to indicate that she was probably drinking booze as well. I'm sure they sell water and tea there.

It doesn't mean she wasn't either. I'll wait to see what they say about her alcohol levels, but in an airport unless they have changed the layout drastically since the last time I flew has other options to eat at also.

Almost any place that did not serve alcohol (fast food, a sandwich shop, etc) would be a better option than a sports bar for an alcoholic on the way to rehab. That's temptation to be avoided.

[Zebra]

That's true.

I don't think that bit of information gives us any knowledge in either direction.

[Dangerosa]

The problem I see is that no matter the good intentions of the addict it's hugely easy to backslide. Even if they've agreed to go to rehab, it's often considered a good idea for someone to accompany the addict on his or her travel. It's not that I think Mr. Gotbaum made a mistake to stay with the children, just that after my experiences as a patient in mental health circles, I think that the course of wisdom would have been to send a friend of the family or a family member with Ms. Gotbaum.

I'll go so far as to suggest that with the prevalence of airport bars, an alcoholic is probably more in need of a protective companion than people travelling while suffering other medical conditions.

Dealing with my sister - in and out of rehab, on and off the wagon, fly her back and forth when we think things are horrid only to have her sober up, go home, and play the same game again in six months (my mother claims she is "about done" - I've been done for a year) - I have to completely agree.

Its very difficult for my sister to fly sober. There is a long wait to board the plane - and the airport bar right there! The flight is uncomfortable and noisy - and the stewardess will bring you a bottle of whiskey for $5.

And apparently, when the rehab staff meets them at the airport - nearly every single one of them gets off that plane stinking drunk. And nearly every one of them doesn't want to go to rehab. (And, apparently, it isn't uncommon for the rehab graduates to get drunk at the airport bar and send emails to the people they were in rehab with that "it didn't work").

If you are serious about getting someone into rehab - you have to make sure they get there. And they need to want to go. But you have to do both.

[An Arky]

They don't have rehab facilities in New York? Why Arizona? And yeah, you don't put somebody like that on a cross-country plane.

She did it to herself, plain and simple; death by misadventure.

However, ISTM the cops were negligent in leaving her alone cuffed up like that. IMHO, that's just not sound procedure.

[OtakuLoki]

That's true.

I don't think that bit of information gives us any knowledge in either direction.


Zebra, I'll agree that there's no evidence. In fact that's what I told Tomndebb upthread.

But I'm afraid that given we're talking about an alcoholic, and not even a recovering alcoholic, on a trip to rehab - I'm going to assume that she did take advantage of her solitary status to sneak a few drinks until, and unless, the toxicology report indicates that she was, in fact, sober.

I may be cutting myself with how I'm handling Occam's Razor. I've done it before, and will again. But that's how it looks to me from my experience with having seen a number of alcoholics and drug addicts in group therapy sessions. It's a constant theme, that all of them have 'snuck' drinks when they thought they were out of sight of their minders, or the people they were trying to hide their use from.

I can't back up Dangerosa's claim that rehab people expect to find these travelers drunk when they pick them up at the airports, but it sure rings true to me.

[Dangerosa]

They don't have rehab facilities in New York? Why Arizona? And yeah, you don't put somebody like that on a cross-country plane.

She did it to herself, plain and simple; death by misadventure.

However, ISTM the cops were negligent in leaving her alone cuffed up like that. IMHO, that's just not sound procedure.

People often go to rehab far from home. It may be that they like a certain rehab center. It may be that they want to pass it off as a "vacation." A few of these centers have reputations that create pull - certainly we have one here in Minnesota that people come from all over the world based on the reputation of the center.

At family week at the center we were at, there were people from all over the country - and a few locals.

[Duke of Rat]

You know what they say, rehab is for quitters.

I kid, I kid.

The thing that bothers me is that if she was such a hardcore alcoholic that she couldn't pass through an airport without drinking, she needed a sober companion. If she was not drinking and freaked out from alcohol withdrawl, she shouldn't have been in a situation to be travelling alone. And if she was just flat that mentally unstable, she shouldn't have been travelling alone, period.

Seems like her family would have known about any one of these scenarios (and all 3 might turn out to be wrong, I don't know), she sure appears to have been way to fragile to embark on this journey unescorted. And if that's the case, her family should have taken some steps to insure her safety.

I don't know if airlines do it for adults, but I've seen young children travelling alone and the airline will assign somebody to keep an eye on them. Hindsight being 20/20 and all, it sure would have been nice if somebody could have kept an eye on this lady.

[hajario]

I don't know if airlines do it for adults, but I've seen young children travelling alone and the airline will assign somebody to keep an eye on them. Hindsight being 20/20 and all, it sure would have been nice if somebody could have kept an eye on this lady.

I doubt that the airlines would be willing to offer this service to an adult. Frankly, it's just not their job and they're trying to run a business. <insert obvious joke here>.

[An Arky]

So, she was drunker than a skunk and on prescription drugs to boot...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071109/ap_on_re_us/airport_death

[Omegaman]

Looks like it was an accident but sad none the less.

[Zebra]

Gotbaum had about 35 bruises on her neck, arms and legs, including her knees and elbows, and scrapes, according to the autopsy report. Her neck injuries included "chain impressions," said the report, with police saying they found her handcuffed hands next to her neck.

:dubious:

She racked up all these marks in only a few minutes?

I'm glad they aren't ruling it a suicide.

[Geek Mecha]

:dubious:
She racked up all these marks in only a few minutes?
It's not saying she got all those injuries in the minutes before she died, just that she had those injuries, period. She did plenty of resisting as the police dragged her from the gate. The bruises and marks on her arms and legs are likely a result of that.

[Eleanor of Aquitaine]

The only thing that bothers me is that the cops handcuffed an obviously disturbed woman to a bench and left her completely alone. They didn't have to give her hugs and kisses, but someone should have kept an eye on her.

[phouka]

Her husband called the airport three times, worried because his wife was "depressed and suicidal".

And she's an alcoholic.

And she's going to rehab.

WTF, sir? Was she supposed to tattoo "do not leave unsupervised" on her forehead? The woman shouldn't have been allowed to go to the bathroom by herself, let alone sent to the airport for a cross country flight.

[descamisado]

Her husband called the airport three times, worried because his wife was "depressed and suicidal".

And she's an alcoholic.

And she's going to rehab.

WTF, sir? Was she supposed to tattoo "do not leave unsupervised" on her forehead? The woman shouldn't have been allowed to go to the bathroom by herself, let alone sent to the airport for a cross country flight.No dog in this fight, but previous posts to this thread has the husband stating that he stayed home with the kids to lessen the trauma of their mother leaving and their separation from her.

Don't know if that was an "after-the-fact" excuse for not accompanying her, but it could also be valid.

How law enforcement, once they detained her, left her unattended is beyond me. Lots of bad decisions here (her traveling alone, then throwing a shit-fit, etc.), but this is most egregious. I would have thought there were protocols for something like an obviously intoxicated/handcuffed detainee.

[Vinyl Turnip]

Judging from the security camera footage I'll condede this woman was no prize, at least not at the end—but I catch a whiff of bullshit on this one.

[Moirai]

As an alcoholic in recovery, I will say that in my opinion, the husband is completely ignorant of alcoholism, is a liar, or an idiot.

Sending her off cross-country alone to get sober? What a joke. The fact that she may have convinced him that this was the "independent" thing to do just shows his ignorance.

Of course she drank in that bar- it's what we do. Only with some sort of (drastic) measures do we NOT drink in that situation.

Any half-way decent counselor would have told him that sending her alone was a recipe for certain disaster. If he couldn't accompany her, then she needed a friend, relative or therapist.

I feel badly for everyone involved, but the family is living with the results of giving in to her bullshit one last time. :(